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ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 12:00 AM
I don't post here much and posted this on other various WOT fan forums, but seeing as to how this is Theoryland, I figured I would post it here as well and get 'Theorylanders' thoughts. This is also my first 'theory' that I've posted, so be easy on me please :D I also realize and understand that chopping up the book reference and doing it 'properly' would make it more coherent so to speak, but alas knowledge of how to do that fails me :o

After reading a post that vaguely mentioned it and pointing out some aspects, I think I have a general idea on what's going to happen at the FOM (I think of this dream in this context, mainly following TGS/TOM). So here I go...

In CoT chapter 20, starting on page 596 of my paperback version it reads, "She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounds her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well been a mile off for all the chance she had of reashing it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under fingers.


Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

*End of Dream*

So I'll attempt to explain my reasoning on what parts I think seem pretty clear to us by now and inject conjecture on most the rest so bear with me

The dream begins with Egwene struggling up a narrow, rocky cliff. I think this rocky cliff represents what she will be facing on the FOM. The narrow, rocky cliff represents how tenous the situation at FOM will be for her. She will have to tread very carefully. The towering cliff represents how hard it's going to be to oppose Rand. Further evidence of this in the first paragraph are the stones littered along the ridge that could crumble beneath her feet - this would be all the leaders supporting Rand after he explains his reasoning. The last line of the feeling of pushing and pulling carts represents Egwene trying to pursuade all the leaders and allies of Rand.

The second paragraph of this dreams begins with Egwene falling abruptly from the cliff and having to hold on by her fingertips. This would represent everyone, or near everyone agreeing with Rand's plan and she's desperatly trying to find something, anything to hold onto at this point, most likely to maintain her position and authority as Amyrlin at this meeting falling by the wayside. Her fall from the cliff ends with her finding a tiny crevice, holding on by her fingertips. Going by this reasoing, she doesn't completely lose her postion in the meeting and find someone, anyone to support or. Or perhaps she changes her tactics and buys some time. This fall 'wrenching' her arms reeks of a big slap of humility that will be very hard for Egwene to take it seems as well.

As she's hanging on by her fingertips, she feels no strength in her arms - as in, she feels completely defeated and feels like she's just going to fall from the cliff completely. This would represent her position as Amyrlin I feel and her losing it in so far as her view of what Amyrlin represents. The dagger feeling under her fingers on the edge of the crevice would represent how hard this humbling proccess will be for her. And/or news has arrived during the FOM meeting that sends her into great despair - Shadow launching their War full on (TOM Epilogue).

Unto the third paragraph (which I don't feel I understand much off, but will throw out some ideas just to try to fully flesh it out) and we have the Seanchan woman appearing. What this tells us following the previous reasioning is this will obviously happen as Egwene is at her lowest point. What's interesting in the third paragraph of this dream to me is that by the description of the Seanchan woman deftly coming down the cliff to reach Egwene out of the clouds. So why deftly and why clouds?

She's coming down from clouds (representing arrogance, thinking her view is the only way etc.) after some sort of assumed epiphany - perhaps coming from Trolloc invasion right on the heels of Seanchan occuping the Tower perhaps or some sort. Or possibly Tuon has had the realization that her Prophecies aren't going down like she's assumed they will and now this is the only way to save her Empire. This would go with her face wavering respresting her reluctance to accept any channeler (because after all this dream represents the Seanchan woman realizing that only together can they reach the top now - The Light). And the sword seemed solid as stone because despite whatever revulsion they have to ever allying with any channeler, the epiphanies told Tuon that only together, with the support of the Seanchan military (sword) can they possibly have a chance at this point. And finally and the most obvious of it all is the last statement by Tuon that only together can they reach the top together, the Light.

So to sum up, Egwene's goign to have tread very carefully at the FOM and will still fall and be at her lowest point. It's at this point the Seanchan woman comes and says they need to work together to reach the top (win).

This all assumes this represents the meeting at the FOM for Egwene and the following alliance with the Seanchan. And of course the Seanchan woman representing Tuon of course, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that this is what it's representing. Thoughts and ideas are greatly appreciated and welcomed .

P.S. sorry for not knowing how to quote directly from the book as it's more coherent to read that way, but I couldn't figure that out. So if someone knows and would point out how to do that would be great, thanks

Nae'blis
01-14-2011, 12:06 AM
I'm not sure what you mean about "quoting directly from the books," but there's an icon that allows you to wrap quote tags around text, if that's what you mean. It looks like a little cartoon talking balloon. You don't necessarily have to use that format to quote, though.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 12:13 AM
I'm not sure what you mean about "quoting directly from the books," but there's an icon that allows you to wrap quote tags around text, if that's what you mean. It looks like a little cartoon talking balloon. You don't necessarily have to use that format to quote, though.

Quoting directly...I meant that when I've seen others do and quote directly from the book and it appears with the white background. I know I didn't have to do it that way, but I feel it would have been easier to read and follow.

Terez
01-14-2011, 12:28 AM
I have argued for some time that the woman would be Tuon, but I think the sword is Justice. Rand has it now, and it will be a good bargaining chip at Merrilor. I'm mostly wondering exactly how Rand will be 'consumed' by the Midnight Towers. I'm thinking that's Seanchan rather than Forsaken.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 12:46 AM
I have argued for some time that the woman would be Tuon, but I think the sword is Justice. Rand has it now, and it will be a good bargaining chip at Merrilor. I'm mostly wondering exactly how Rand will be 'consumed' by the Midnight Towers. I'm thinking that's Seanchan rather than Forsaken.

Hmm, after thinking about it a little more (the third paragraph of the dream) regarding the sword strapped to her back and never wavering.

Another interpertation of that to me would be the Sword (representing Seanchan military) also indicating Matrim due to it being 'strapped to her back seemed solid as stone'. We as readers should know that if Tuon is coming down from the clouds (clouds being her misguided thinking due to Seanchan KC) to help the White Tower and Egwene, then it makes sense Matrim will be firmly behind Tuon as solid as a stone in helping Egwene reach the top together.

Juan
01-14-2011, 12:53 AM
You should post here more often!

And as for the quoting to have that white background you need to use brackets. Where in html you would use <quote> your message here. </quote> Here, you simply replace the < with a [ and the > with a ]. It's fairly easy. You can edit your original post and add them in. And even type in on the first line COT, Chapter 20. And simply highlight that and click the B (which is the first button on top of this box) to make it bold font. Hope that helps.

FelixPax
01-14-2011, 01:07 AM
Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

*End of Dream*

Ask Bayle Domon if Leilwin Shipless has a strong hand? ;)


Ask Selucia if an Empress would wear a Sword over their shoulder, when all but a few Seanchan can't even look her in the eyes? How would the Deathwatch Guard take it, for an Empress to feel the need to carry a sword? The shame of it.


Who among the Seanchan people wear a sword over their shoulders? Naval sailors, officers--Leilwin, prior career occupation. :D


Time for Egwene to get over her PTSD syndrome and embrace a woman who is trusted by Nynaeve, Elayne and Thom, Juilin, Amathera, Aludra.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 01:40 AM
Ask Bayle Domon if Leilwin Shipless has a strong hand? ;)


Ask Selucia if an Empress would wear a Sword over their shoulder, when all but a few Seanchan can't even look her in the eyes? How would the Deathwatch Guard take it, for an Empress to feel the need to carry a sword? The shame of it.


Who among the Seanchan people wear a sword over their shoulders? Naval sailors, officers--Leilwin, prior career occupation. :D


Time for Egwene to get over her PTSD syndrome and embrace a woman who is trusted by Nynaeve, Elayne and Thom, Juilin, Amathera, Aludra.

Heh, I'm disapointed in you FelixPax considering I recall you mentioning somewhere how many times you've read these books (meaning if anyone should have picked up on it I figured it would be you).

Anyways, Moratcorlm gives further evidence on my musing of the third paragraph of the dream and the Seanchan woman.from KOD Mat/Tuon conversation in Mat's thoughts.

Mat's thoughts as he's having his nightly ventures into Tuon's wagon from KOD chapter 8 are this: "You played very poorly toward the end.” Tuon murmured, frowning thoughtfully at the board, now divided evenly between the control of black stones and white. He could all but see her start trying to work out what they had been talking about when his poor play began. Talking with her was like walking a crumbling ledge across the face of a cliff. One misstep, and Mat Cauthon would be as dead as last year’s mutton. Only, he had to walk that ledge.

Pretty good foreshadowing from Robert Jordan I would say and once again, a great pick up from Moratcorlm.

morat'corlm
01-14-2011, 01:41 AM
I think Terez is right about the sword being Justice. Rand can use that as a bargaining chip, and very soon Tuon will be able to use the Horn of Valere similarly. Mat, of course, will be the intermediary:
Do you have a Horn of Valere to sell? Or mayhap it do be the Dragon’s sword?

A further connection implying the woman is Tuon: “You played very poorly toward the end.” Tuon murmured, frowning thoughtfully at the board, now divided evenly between the control of black stones and white. He could all but see her start trying to work out what they had been talking about when his poor play began. Talking with her was like walking a crumbling ledge across the face of a cliff. One misstep, and Mat Cauthon would be as dead as last year’s mutton. Only, he had to walk that ledge.
But the alliance between Egwene and Tuon will come first: perhaps when the Merrilor situation is "divided evenly between the control of black stones and white", so to speak, though after the Horn is recovered from the Tower basement.
Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a’dam.

And these I can't make heads nor tails of. They might refer to the same wall, but on the other hand one is described as stone and the other explicitly not so; still, they seem to fit together. The FAQ and 13th Depository view the first as a description of Rand's emotional state, I think, but I'm not so sure about that.
Rand building a wall with him on one side and her on the other, her and Elayne and others she could not make out. "It has to be done," he was saying as he piled up stones. "I'll not let you stop me now." She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the Dark One’s prison shut. Some of those seals were broken now, though not even the One Power could break cuendillar, and the rest had weakened somehow, but the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 02:35 AM
I think Terez is right about the sword being Justice. Rand can use that as a bargaining chip, and very soon Tuon will be able to use the Horn of Valere similarly. Mat, of course, will be the intermediary:


A further connection implying the woman is Tuon:
But the alliance between Egwene and Tuon will come first: perhaps when the Merrilor situation is "divided evenly between the control of black stones and white", so to speak, though after the Horn is recovered from the Tower basement.


And these I can't make heads nor tails of. They might refer to the same wall, but on the other hand one is described as stone and the other explicitly not so; still, they seem to fit together. The FAQ and 13th Depository view the first as a description of Rand's emotional state, I think, but I'm not so sure about that.

Perhaps the sword is Justice, but if she is to have Justice when she allies with Egwene, she would have to have gotten it from Rand first.

I see two conflicting problems in the foreshadowing and dreams you quoted with this though. The first supports Terez's theory that the sword is Justice. The second doesn't though if you believe that Egwene and Tuon will form an alliance and then meet Rand. Not really sure how those two can go together. Perhaps the Horn is the bargaining chip and the second part of selling a sword is just a red herring (doubtful), just thinking out loud.

The parts you can't put a nail on seem pretty straightforward though. Rand building a wall between Egwene, Elayne a few others would be their opposition to his breaking the seals and him saying he's not going to let them stop him now. His POV in TOM indicates this very thing, that's he's not going to let them stop him.

The second dream also seems straightforward enough. Immense wall = Rand and his allies. Her clawing at = obviously her opposition to breaking the seals. The immense wall consisting of the ancient AS symbol is Rands banners and his allies supporting him breaking the seals. "Countless thousands" would indicate all of the support he's going to recieve to "break what he must break".

Pretty neat how all of these seem to tie together and are great, subtle foreshadowing of the meeting at the FOM and how events following it are going to play out. Robert Jordan put a lot of clues throughout the book of this event, which makes sense since it should arguebly be the biggest event in the series outside of actually defeating the DO. After all, Robert Jordan intended for TGS/TOM/AMOL to be one book and splitting them up this way (knowing of FOM meeting etc) has allowed us to put a lot of this together and interpret these dreams a lot more accurately then we would have been able to if the books were KOD --> AMOL :cool:

morat'corlm
01-14-2011, 03:02 AM
Interesting. I can't fault your logic that the treaty between Tuon and Rand will have to precede that between Tuon and Egwene, though that seems like it would take some dramatic tension out of the scene. Maybe not. Is Tuon going immediately to change sides and oppose Rand's plan after coming to an arrangement with him?

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 03:36 AM
Interesting. I can't fault your logic that the treaty between Tuon and Rand will have to precede that between Tuon and Egwene, though that seems like it would take some dramatic tension out of the scene. Maybe not. Is Tuon going immediately to change sides and oppose Rand's plan after coming to an arrangement with him?

I don't think so. It seems like Tuon will have her epiphany at the White Tower. Some event (insert various theories here) is going to convince Tuon that the Prophecies aren't playing out the way she's assumed and the only way to preserve the Empire will be through an alliance with the White Tower (and subsequently tying all channelers together - makes Egwene's meeting in TOM with WO/WF a lot more important for the Light).

This goes along with Egwene's dream you quoted of Egwene and "Seanchan woman" (nice description of the Seanchan Empress RJ! I kid I kid) confronting Rand after their (Egwene/Tuon) alliance. Egwene and Tuon will be confronting Rand due to their opposition to his breaking the seals it would seem. If I were a betting man, I would bet that Tuon will most defintely oppose Rand breaking the seals.

If it does fall out in this manner (Egwene/Tuon alliance then confront Rand) then the sword can't be justice and my musings of it being Mat would fit.

sheikh chilli
01-14-2011, 04:33 AM
why would the leader of the aes sedai have an arrangement with an organisation that leashes women, and up unitl few weeks ago launch a raid on their tower and send bloodknives to kill their memebers in their sleep?

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 04:47 AM
I don't think so. It seems like Tuon will have her epiphany at the White Tower. Some event (insert various theories here) is going to convince Tuon that the Prophecies aren't playing out the way she's assumed ...This could be finding the actual original of the Prophecies of the Dragon, with the "bind the Nine Moons to serve him" but without the "kneeling to the Crystal Throne" bit.

morat'corlm
01-14-2011, 05:12 AM
I guess the first edition markings on the copyright page would be convincing.why would the leader of the aes sedai have an arrangement with an organisation that leashes women, and up unitl few weeks ago launch a raid on their tower and send bloodknives to kill their memebers in their sleep?Read and find out.

Mostly, one would assume, to save the world from the lunatic plans of the Dragon. It's hardly the first improbable alliance we'll have seen in the last few books. Honestly, it doesn't really matter why.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 06:01 AM
why would the leader of the aes sedai have an arrangement with an organisation that leashes women, and up unitl few weeks ago launch a raid on their tower and send bloodknives to kill their memebers in their sleep?That's what the Teaching Chamber (ToM, Chapter 47) is for, isn't it? It worked, too.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 11:59 AM
I realize declaring it a FOM dream to be presumptious, but bear with me and I'll try to explain it line by line - first the Dream itself though in its' entirety.

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent…

She had dreamed of a Seanchan before, a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her.

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

Now to take it apart line by line. I'll go back and re-edit it to make the Dream line in bold in order to make it more legible.

---------------------------------

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Confronting Rand and options are 'narrow'; tread carefully. The towering cliff would be Rand. She's struggling up the cliff due to his supporters that back him as well.

Clouds surrounds her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. I take this to represent the rift in those in favor of breaking the seals, and those that do not. She knows both of these grounds because she knows her side. As well as knowing those on the other side (Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve (probably) etc.)) They are far away because one side is: Go break the seals and the other side is, do not break those seals.

She had to place her feet very carefully. She's in a tenuous postion.

The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. The path is cracked because Egwene's encountered more opposition (or just simply representing the clear division), possibly due to Rand's speech and it puts her into a corner. The ledge is littered with stones because these are all the people that could sway the meeting in Rand's favor. Back against the wall (shoulder pressed against the cliff) and one wrong move (misplaced step) will send the 'littered stones' as large as a fist into Egwene failing in convincing of the Seals not being broken.


It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream. This is probably meaning that the two sides are entrenched. Pushing 'millstones' probably refers to attempting to pursuade Rand's side. Pulling the 'carts' would conversly mean she's 'pulling' her side to stay with her. Can flip the pushing and pulling to the other way around, not sure which side those two words represent; it's not really important anyway (the packs, they're both entrenched).

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. This is incredibly interesting I think. I think this represents Moiraine's arrival at the meeting and her support of Rand. Notice the words "abruptly" and "crumbling stone" - suddenly her path falls out from under her in apparent shock (frantically) and shes struggling to regain her center of balance.

Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Again, Moiraine's arrival and Egwene desperately trying to find her center. She lands and is flabbergasted (wrenchend).

Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Moiraine's arrival and prompt support of breaking the seals leaves Egwene reeling and her support, crumbling. The stone (Moiraine) doesn't hit the ground because of her reputation and never makes a sound for the same reason. She makes no sound because nobody challenges her declaration.

Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left, Ten feet away, it might as well been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. Again very interesting one I think. This "ledge" she sees "dimly to her left" is Moiraine. She has no chance of reaching this 'broken ledge' because of Moiraine's reputation. The broken ledge would represent Moiraine causing a rift in Aes Sedai's opinions.

In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. This direction are those who support Egwene after Moiraine's declation. The 'mist' or Aes Sedai are hiding the path (opposition to breaking the seals) because uncertanities entered their minds. This ledge is further away because they aren't recieving the support they thought they would in their not breaking the seals plan.

There was no strength in her arms. Despair, loss of hope perhaps - the end if the seals are broke. Also no strength due to feeling betrayed by Moiraine.

She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. Egwene and her Aes Sedai support is starting to blunder (Hanging by fingertips) Her efforts to convince Rand have failed. She can only wait until the seals are broke and the world ends. Perhaps she can't pull herself up because her "don't make me force my hand" didn't work.

The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under fingers. The 'cliff' she lands upon is painful. Most likely referring to how rough this meetings going to be for her. It also sounds a lot like what a betrayal would feel like. As well as her despair at failing to convince Rand not to break the seals.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. This is Tuon coming down to Egwene. Down representing Tuon going to Egwene, the Amyrlin of the White Tower. She's also going down figuratively because she's going to Egwene and by previous Seanchan customs the Empress doesn't treat a marathdamane with respect - on the same level. Deftly as if they were stairs because she's sure in here purpose to ally with Egwene. Deftly could also refer to Tuon's political acumen in this act.

There was a sword strapped to her back. This could be a few things I admit. I favor the sword either represents Mat and/or Seanchan Empire. Mostly Matrim though due to "strapped to her back". That just kinda reeks of a modern day term of "Wrapped around your finger" and it's reasonable to assume that Matrim is wrapped around her finger to a certain degree. Also the Sword and First Prince of the Ravens goes hand in hand smybolically it would seem. As a First Prince, are you not then the Sword (General, Horn Blower, take your pick ;p) of the Empress?

Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. Tuon's face wavers due to Seanchan's cultural attitude towards collaring channelers. The sword is solid as stone because hell or high water Matrim will do whatever he can to keep Egwene's "bacon off the coals."

The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together,". She said in a familar drawling accent. Reaching her level means they agree on opposing Rand and his insistence on breaking the seals perhaps. Together, Egwene's supporters and Tuon's Empire can reach the top together, above the clouds to the Light.

The Immortal One
01-14-2011, 12:47 PM
why would the leader of the aes sedai have an arrangement with an organisation that leashes women, and up unitl few weeks ago launch a raid on their tower and send bloodknives to kill their memebers in their sleep?

Perhaps Egwene would ally herself with the Seanchan because it is the only way left to her. Like when Perrin allied with the Seanchan, it was the only way to get what he needed. Or perhaps this Dream:
Originally Posted by LOC15
A hard-faced Seanchan woman handed her a silvery bracelet and necklace connected by a silvery leash, an a’dam.
Represents Tuon stopping the whole Sul'dam/Damane thing. Giving up the authority to leash women to the Aes Sedai as part of the deal, the alliance (probably right after Egwene says that she couldn't possibly even consider allying with anyone who leashes people.



It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream. This is probably meaning that the two sides are entrenched. Pushing 'millstones' probably refers to attempting to pursuade Rand's side. Pulling the 'carts' would conversly mean she's 'pulling' her side to stay with her. Can flip the pushing and pulling to the other way around, not sure which side those two words represent; it's not really important anyway (the packs, they're both entrenched).

This part is simply to say that this dream is similar to her normal (non-prophetic) nightmares about her seemingly endless and impossible tasks, like reuniting the White Tower and facing the Dark One.

This statement is not really part of the Dream - it's just Egwene's thoughts narrating the actual Dream.



Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. This is incredibly interesting I think. I think this represents Moiraine's arrival at the meeting and her support of Rand. Notice the words "abruptly" and "crumbling stone" - suddenly her path falls out from under her in apparent shock (frantically) and shes struggling to regain her center of balance.

Notice that not only her position crumbles, but part of the cliff breaks off too. If, as you say, the cliff represents Rand and his allies then his position would be affected by this event - whatever it is - too. Perhaps it is not Moiraine's arrival, but rather news of the White Tower/Caemlyn being attacked.



Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. Tuon's face wavers due to Seanchan's cultural attitude towards collaring channelers. The sword is solid as stone because hell or high water Matrim will do whatever he can to keep Egwene's "bacon off the coals."

I'd assumed that the face wavering represents the vagueness of Dreams and prophecy - like when Min first had a viewing of Rand with three women around him the faces were blurred (except hers), because she didn't know the women, had never met them - this could mean that the 'Seanchan woman' is simply a person Egwene has never met yet.

After all, it's described as 'the face wavered' not as 'the person's expression wavered'.


As a First Prince, are you not then the Sword (General, Horn Blower, take your pick ;p) of the Empress?

On a slightly unrelated tangent; Mat being Tuon's "Horn Blower" sounds a little naughty.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 01:47 PM
You make some good points. I think you're right that the face wavering is likely to be due to it being a Dream. I didn't think of that. This 'wavering' did conflict with the 'deftly going down the stairs'. to her afterall :D.

As far as the lowest point for Egwene in this Dream, I think Moiraine arriving in the middle of the scene and immediately declaring herself for Rand is fitting. It fits with the Dream and the resulting descriptions of Egwene's 'cliff' crumbling.

It could also be Nynaeve, but the greatest antagonist to Egwene would be Moiraine in this meeting. I just don't think Egwene would plummet as fast, far and hard if it was Nynaeve rather than Moiraine doing this. The emotions she's going to go through are going to leave her reeling, blow after blow. She's alive! She declared for Rand! She betrayed the Amyrlin Seat and the White Tower! Aes Sedai do not betray the White Tower! We'll probably see more of the Egwene the Amyrlin and Egwene the girl (feelings she'll be feeling) having a conflict here like never before. yadda yadda yadda.

One last thought in regards to "Notice that not only her position crumbles, but part of the cliff breaks off too." . Part of the cliff falling off is what she's standing on, her supporters (whoever they are at this point is anyone's guess). I would think that part of the cliff breaks off too is other Aes Sedai declaring for the Dragon following Moiraine's declaration - Egwene's loosing ground and indeed 'abruptly' loses her path and her 'footing'.

FelixPax
01-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Heh, I'm disapointed in you FelixPax considering I recall you mentioning somewhere how many times you've read these books (meaning if anyone should have picked up on it I figured it would be you).


Now really, if you had actually searched the forums, you would KNOW I have previously put up pages & pages of theory who this very individual is.

Egeanin, who is now known as Leilwin Shipless, wife of Domon.


What else have I previously claimed about that scene? It'll take place in the Black Hills near or on a Giant Sa'angreal (male). A sa'angreal which a member of the Chosen controls--likely Demandred based on Mesaana's prior thoughts.



Perhaps ScoundrelTheToy should look closer again? At the books, and how to use a forum? ;)

ScoundrelTheToy
01-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Now really, if you had actually searched the forums, you would KNOW I have previously put up pages & pages of theory who this very individual is.

Egeanin, who is now known as Leilwin Shipless, wife of Domon.


What else have I previously claimed about that scene? It'll take place in the Black Hills near or on a Giant Sa'angreal (male). A sa'angreal which a member of the Chosen controls--likely Demandred based on Mesaana's prior thoughts.



Perhaps ScoundrelTheToy should look closer again? At the books, and how to use a forum? ;)

God, I hate sounding like Terez!

So you would have me believe that Egeanin is going to save Egwene, the Amyrlin Seat? Egeanin is a tertiary character that means jack squat.

...And she noticed a woman approaching her, walking with confidence, an air of authority about her. She had a stern mask of a face. She glided toward Egwene and came up short of touching distance and she spoke and she instantly knew that voice, that all too familar drawl. She was Seanchan! Memories of her time with Renna welled up within her. Fury deep within her bubbled, ready to burst as it did that night they dared attack the White Tower!

"My name is Leilwin Shipless" she drawled in that all too familiar accent. Burn her! Anything but a Seanchan. Anything!

Egwene abruptly realized the woman was waiting on a response. She fixed her gaze on her and replied in a cool, even voice, "I am Egwene 'Al Vere, the Amyrlin Seat, Flame of Tar Valon, Watcher of the Seals. You may address me as Mother" She kept her eyes fixed on her, not blinking, staring through her. She would not back down from a Seanchan. Let her see that she could remain calm, burn her!

The woman suddenly bowed and replied, "Forgive me Mother. I was told of the events at the place known as the Fields of Merrilor. I came here as quickly as I could to offer you my support, if you would have it."

Support, from a Seanchan? Never. But, she did need support. She needed it desperately if she wanted to have any remaining hope of stopping Al'Thor from breaking those seals and ruining them all. Even still, she couldn't deny support, even from a Seanchan could she? She had a temptation to wring her hands and straighten her shawl, but instead she asked, "What support could you offer the Amyrlin Seat, Shipless?"

Her stomach felt like it was knotting up something terrible, this was worse then even the moon blood! Now she felt bile rising in her throat as well, a Seanchan! Was she really that desperate? Unfortanetely, after the disaster at the meeting with Al'Thor...She started thinking furiously. Maybe this woman is the answer I needed, perhaps with her support I can regroup and confront Al'Thor again before he destroyed the world. Wool-headed fool he was, and they had taken his side today! No, she would remain calm. To be Aes Sedai was to be calm.

Egwene quickly stuidied the woman a little closer and noticed that she had the manner of a noble. Light, help me. Perhaps she was of the High Blood. That would be useful. She needed more tools, esepcially at this moment. Once again her mind started racing. What could she do to stop Al'Thor. The woman hesistated, steadied herself and looked her in the eye. How dare her! Light help me she thought and froze. Why did she keep thinking that?

"I'm sorry Mother, all I can offer you is my support and that of my husband...Egwene stopped listening and her fury peaked to a new high. Did she think this was a joke? Her support consisted of herself and her husband? Little wonder she calls herself Shipliss. How dare she insult the Amyrlin! I am the White Tower and it doesn't stand to take insults from Seanchan! Burn them, how she hated them!

As quickly as she ever had in her life, her hand reached into the pocket of her blouse and she grabbed for her dagger. She had thought to use this on Al'Thor if he forced her hand, but the right moment had never presented itself! She couldn't stop him with the One Power due to the Three Oaths, but that only applied to the Power. Fingers on her blade now, she gripped it firmly in both hands and raised the dagger above her head and slammed it down into her chest as hard as she could. As the Seanchan monster fell in front of her, blood dribbling from the corner of her mouth; with a start that she quickly suppressed, she noticed her mouth for the first time and had never thought she had seen a mouth quite like that. That mouth looked like it could chew rocks. Suddenly, a giggle burst from her lips as she slammed the dagger home again to make sure she would never rise again. Satisfied that the biteme was done for, she calmly wiped the blood from her dagger and resisted the sudden urge to slice her finger with it. Sighing to herself, she carefully hid it back amoung her blouse. She might not be able to use the Power as a weapon, but as long as she had her dagger safely hidden away, nobody could stop her.

That was funner to write than I thought (totally sarcastic tone) burn me! Anyways, please tell Felix what Egeanin is going to offer Egwene that's worth two wooden pennies in her goal to stop Rand?

metaphor
01-14-2011, 08:37 PM
I don't see how that woman can be anyone but Egeanin-pardon, Leilwin.
The description is pretty precise, a woman with a sword strapped on her shoulders, and Leilwin is the only one to have been shown wearing it that way. And she still wears it that way.

The connection with a metaphor Mat used to describe Tuon's personality is much more tenuous that the figure Egwene saw in her Dream.

And in any case, if we assume that it is some foreshadowing by RJ, then
This
Talking with her was like walking a crumbling ledge across the face of a cliff. One misstep, and Mat Cauthon would be as dead as last year’s mutton


would correspond to this
"She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff.

Mat equals talking with Tuon to walking on the edge of a cliff. That is what Egwene is doing, she is facing against Tuon, and that is for her like walking on the edge of a clif.

Egwene's falling off the cliff represents her difficulty dealing with Tuon, and the difficulty the AS have dealing with the Seanchan.
That's where a Seanchan woman, with a sword strapped on her back, as Leilwin has, saves her from falling. Offers her the help she needed in that particular situation.

How that will go we don't know. It may be related to Leilwin being the first to discover that Sul'dam can channel and friend with Elayne and Nynaeve, and Egwene havin in her hands a group of Sul'dam, curently in the care of Elayne.
Leilwin is also an experienced military officer, so she might offer some inside knowledge about the Seanchan military.

morat'corlm
01-14-2011, 08:48 PM
She's also the one who handed over the Domination Band to Semirhage, which won't go over well with Nynaeve. It might with Egwene, but Egeanin doesn't have a copy on her.

Egeanin at this point is a beggar, not a power player.

metaphor
01-14-2011, 08:51 PM
Who says she has to be a power play?
She just has to have the right knowledge, or idea, or merely to be at the right moment at the right place.
And due to her past, the service she can offer is pretty unique.
As for the domination band, wether it sits right with Nynaeve or not is irrelevant at this point.


And it's not like Tuon deciding to ally herself with what she considers to be an abomination, non-human, and one of the most dangerous things unless collared makes more sense.
In fact it doesn't make any sense at all.

morat'corlm
01-14-2011, 09:14 PM
There's making sense in terms of motivation and then there's making sense in terms of possibility. The U.S. could start a nuclear war with Russia tomorrow. It wouldn't make sense, but it's quite possible. The Whitecloaks allied themselves with the Aes Sedai. It made no sense at all–they've a thousand-year tradition of murdering any Aes Sedai they can–but they could do it, and did.

Now, Egeanin's motivation for helping Egwene is possibly more benign than the other candidates', but what tangible benefit can she give the Amyrlin Seat? There are a number of profoundly helpful things the Empress could do: free the damane, offer support against Rand at Merrilor, give an army in the Last Battle. What's Egeanin got besides the sword on her back?

And I wouldn't be too swift to dismiss Nynaeve. She would be absolutely furious to see Egeanin's face again, and as the highest-ranking Aes Sedai in the Tower and probably one Egwene keeps an eye on, that matters.

Terez
01-14-2011, 09:36 PM
I can see it being Egeanin. I just lean toward Tuon because I like the idea of the sword being Justice. But I also like the idea of this referring to Justice:
"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?
It would be so awesome if we got that verse in context at the end of AMOL, and like the footer prophecies in TGS and TOM it turns out to mean something completely different than we were led to believe.

Of course, the dark young man with the bright object appears to support Rand's interpretation, but maybe it doesn't. I like the idea of Egeanin getting hold of the sword and presenting it to Tuon to get back in her good graces.

In that case either Tuon or Egeanin could be the woman in the dream depending on timing. I just like Tuon mostly because of the dream about the golden hawk's wing stretching out to touch Egwene. It could be Berelain, but I like Tuon better.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 03:50 AM
Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?Who was called the Heart of Darkness? Ba'alzamon, aka Ishamael.
What did Rand do to him? Stick a swordblade into him, of course.
What was the effect? He held the hearts of loads of Dragonsworn all around Falme.

What happened to that sword? Well, it broke. Rand held on to the hilt. The blade, though, stayed stuck in Ishamael. Until Demandred drew it out. He could grasp it. He shall follow after.

Terez
01-15-2011, 04:18 AM
I wonder if Rand really is going to kill himself. Sheathe the Sword, and all. Into his own heart, he thrusts his sword. Now we just have to figure out how Alivia will help. Maybe she will eat him, thus fulfilling the 'consumed by the Midnight Towers' verse.

morat'corlm
01-15-2011, 06:02 AM
Maybe the Broken Wolf is Perrin after all, the thirteen Midnight Towers are the Aiel clans, and they're going to "kill a blacksmith and dine on his flesh" in Semirhage's memory.

Fie
01-15-2011, 06:38 AM
Oh damn. And here I am having thought it was intuitively obvious that the Seanchan woman was Tylee Khirgan. Now I have to rethink :mad: What a pity that "Seanchan woman" as a term wasn´t mentioned, else I´d offer the explanation that Egwene´s just to dumb not to see that it´s a plot by some dreamwalktalent forsaken that made her mistake "that Seanche woman" for "Seanchan woman" :p

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 06:58 AM
Maybe it is Semirhage who was supposed to have helped Egwene, and Rand fiendishly foiled that already. Wouldn't that be a pity?

Fie
01-15-2011, 07:13 AM
Indeed, indeed. What a pity. Rand´s such a woolhead. That could have been the beginning of a wonderful friendship there. And I doubt that Graendal, when she tries to take a bit of Semi´s possessions to her den, will have much use for Semi´s Seanchan costumes.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 01:47 PM
It seems I'm wrong about the third part the Dream indicating Tuon so I apologize Felixpax (grinds teeth!). As I was made aware that shortly following this Dream Egwene realizes this woman is not the same as the hawk who lands on her shoulder. The hawk landing on her shoulder and being tied to her would indicate Tuon, yes? It could also be Berelain, but I don't like it and seems a lot less probable.

I still don't think it's Egeanin although. I'm going to go with Tylee for a few reasons:

1: She will be amoung those that are involved in the assault on the White Tower.

2: She will be in a leadership postion.

3: Expressed desire to ally with Randlanders to Tuon herself.

That's a bold statement so why indicate the desire for this in the text? Also why introduce the character as the only Seanchan to ally with a Randlander to accomplish something together? That's what I wonder when I think of Tylee.

Insert theory here on how it all leads to "Seanchan Woman" coming to the conclusion that they need to "reach the top together". Probably Trollocs or some such crawling in masses from the Borderlands. I bet Trollocs attack and the Seanchan are at an unoccupied Tower, while the Aes Sedai are on the FOM being attacked silmutaneously maybe. So "Seanchan woman" saves Egwene's life with her army when she pulls a Perrin saves Whitecloaks plot device perhaps. I realize it's kinda weak, but it is plausable. Sucks we'll have to RAFO!

FelixPax
01-15-2011, 01:48 PM
So you would have me believe that Egeanin is going to save Egwene, the Amyrlin Seat? Egeanin is a tertiary character that means jack squat.

Who freed a multiple women from an a'dam, be they Seanchan or Aes Sedai?

Egeanin.


What does Egwene al'Vere fear?


An a'dam going around her neck again. Bethamin, Seta, Joline (Green Ajah), Tesyln (Red Ajah), Edesina (Yellow Ajah), Juilin, Amathera, Domon will all back Egeanin/Leilwin as a good person underneath it all, to Egwene.


Who else once saved Egwene's butt in the Stone, from the Black Ajah and a Chosen called Be'lal?


Juilin. His word is a kin to "justice". Siuan's own mother (alias Mother Guenna) once claimed Juilin was the most honest man ever to come out of the Maule, in Tear. Even multiple Sea Folk in Tear agreed with that judgment, of Juilin's character. Juilin's word will carry weigh, among many character's for trusting Leilwin.



Even Mat Cauthon once viewed Juilin as an "ancient oak". Lan & Rand each trusted Juilin enough to give him the charge to protect Elayne & Nynaeve. Juilin's opinion & judgment of Leilwin matters big time.




Obviously someone here has not read Robert Jordan's own repeated claims about the IMPORTANCE of minor characters in the series.
As Terez would say, see the Interview Database (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372).



I can see it being Egeanin. I just lean toward Tuon because I like the idea of the sword being Justice. But I also like the idea of this referring to Justice:


I lean towards the idea that Artur Hawkwing has been re-born in the person of Mat Cauthon. Thus, when Rand sees Mat Cauthon's one remaining eye, he will know immediately who the Sword of Justice belongs too. Mat Cauthon.


Secondly, I don't suspect Leilwin Shipless will aid Egwene al'Vere until after a few specific major events occur in Tar Valon first.



In that case either Tuon or Egeanin could be the woman in the dream depending on timing. I just like Tuon mostly because of the dream about the golden hawk's wing stretching out to touch Egwene. It could be Berelain, but I like Tuon better.

If I recall it right off-hand, didn't Galad once promise to protect Egwene? (Need to double that again!)


Considering that Galad & Berelain have finally hooked up, in TofM book, is not that 'golden hawk's wing' likely Berelain now?


Granted, who that "golden hawk wing's" identity is in more doubt than who this particular Seanchan woman's identity is.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 02:00 PM
...for the most part. You do make some good points. It all hinges on who the golden hawk is. If golden hawk = Tuon that means it's not Tuon in the dream. If golden hawk doesnt = Tuon then it's Berelain. What could Berelain do to land on Egwene's shoulder I wonder?

The third part of the Dream can make sense for Tuon, Egeanin, Tylee. Although, Tuon would be most appropriate because of the symbolism and "reaching the top together". Only Tuon has the power to ally the Seanchan with the White Tower as Empress.

Bleh, I'm not certain but Deadsy's fan fiction of Mat going to the Tower and subsequent plot devolopments revolving around the Horn would indicate the final result of it being "we can reach the top together" that we see at the end of the Dream. This would also mesh with Matrim being the 'center of it all', 'how it swirls about him', 'I can taste fate itself'! Remember, Robert Jordan wrote that Tower of Ghenjei sequence to be a part of the final book, AMOL. If he were to have split the books up, he would have held back on some of the "foreshadowing" I think those Eelfinn give us of what's about to happen.

Terez
01-15-2011, 02:04 PM
It seems I'm wrong about the third part the Dream indicating Tuon so I apologize Felixpax (grinds teeth!). As I was made aware that shortly following this Dream Egwene realizes this woman is not the same as the hawk who lands on her shoulder
What?

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 02:10 PM
I don't feel like grabbing CoT and looking, but Linda from 13th depository made me aware that shortly after Egwene has this dream, she thinks to herself that this woman and the Seanchan she's tied to aren't the same. Right?

FelixPax
01-15-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't feel like grabbing CoT and looking, but Linda from 13th depository made me aware that shortly after Egwene has this dream, she thinks to herself that this woman and the Seanchan she's tied to aren't the same. Right?


As far as I recall Egwene has three unmet Dreams, dealing with similar topics:



One about a Seanchan woman saving Egwene off a climb; that's likely Egeanin, who's now called Leilwin. (See CoT, Chapter 20)
One about a "Golden Hawk" touching Egwene al'Vere; who's either Berelain or Tuon likely. (See ACoS, Chapter 10)
One about a Seanchan women standing behind Egwene al'Vere during a confrontation; who is likely either Bethamin or Seta. (See TDR, Chapter 48)

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 02:38 PM
Yes, so it's back to whether you think the hawk is Berelain or Tuon.

Terez
01-15-2011, 02:41 PM
I'm not sure what Linda was talking about. Maybe I should ask her.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 03:27 PM
I went back and edited a few lines in my interpertation of the second paragraph of the Dream on post #17. Mainly, when Egwene looks to her left (Moiraine) and looks to her right (her supporters). I initially had left = Moiraine, right = Rand, but mist along with path to me indicates Aes Sedai.

To sum up the Dream, I have it going as follows:

Paragraph 1 represents Rand vs. Egwene.

Paragraph 2 represents Moiraine's entrance.

Paragraph 3 Not sure (50/50) who the woman is, but I interperted it as Tuon. But it could be a few others.

sheikh chilli
01-15-2011, 05:32 PM
I would lose all respect for Egwene if she made an agreement with tuon and her slave empire. All respect. the seanchan have got blood on their hands and nearly murdered egwene in her sleep. to turn around and have an agreement with them just to oppose rand is frankly laughable.

But egwene never will do it. She's never dissappointed me all series.

FelixPax
01-15-2011, 06:16 PM
I would lose all respect for Egwene if she made an agreement with tuon and her slave empire. All respect.

However Egwene could bend her knee to Mat Cauthon, who already HAS an Treaty with the Empress. A Treaty witnessed by Setalle Anan & Selucia. One a former Aes Sedai. Another a Truthspeaker, who is looking out to protect Fortuona.


Question is, can Egwene bend her stubborn knee to Mat?

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 06:46 PM
she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff

That 1'stone' 2'crashing' against the 3'cliff' ---> 1Moiraine --> 2declaration for Rand --> 3Rand

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2011, 12:42 AM
I wonder if Rand really is going to kill himself. Sheathe the Sword, and all. Into his own heart, he thrusts his sword. Now we just have to figure out how Alivia will help. Maybe she will eat him, thus fulfilling the 'consumed by the Midnight Towers' verse.

lol. :)

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2011, 12:50 AM
I don't feel like grabbing CoT and looking, but Linda from 13th depository made me aware that shortly after Egwene has this dream, she thinks to herself that this woman and the Seanchan she's tied to aren't the same. Right?

Not really, I don’t think. After the dream of the Seanchan woman saving her, Egwene did think about the previous dream she had involving a Seanchan woman tied to her:

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!

So Egwene thinks about the previous dream and is dismayed that this new dream includes a Seanchan woman that will save her. She doesn’t really consider the two women to be the same; however, there is nothing that precludes them being the same.

Terez
01-16-2011, 03:33 AM
She was referring to a dream she had way back when about Rand confronting her and the women with her, one of whom was a Seanchan. Totally different from the golden hawk's wing dream, which she did not even connect to the Seanchan IIRC.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-16-2011, 04:15 AM
So Egwene thinks about the previous dream and is dismayed that this new dream includes a Seanchan woman that will save her. She doesn’t really consider the two women to be the same; however, there is nothing that precludes them being the same.


I can be lazy at times. So Tuon in this Dream and the Hawk landing on her shoulder can be the same.

Deadsy's fanfic could be eerily accurate in it's sequence.

1: Mat goes to the Tower for the Horn following FOM meeting. I'm assuming that he's going to stay with Moiraine (We shall see Moiraine says). Matrim won't go to Caemlyn due to the severed hand viewing I feel.

2: Finds it coinciding with Seanchan arriving via gateways in the Tower basement. I bet the moment he decides to go for the Horn, the dice in his head will start spinning :D

3: Makes a deal with Tuon.

4: Cue Dream and Tuon's arrival after the FOM meeting and subsequent alliance with Egwene.

Well, that's what I'm thinking at the moment.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-16-2011, 04:24 AM
She was referring to a dream she had way back when about Rand confronting her and the women with her, one of whom was a Seanchan. Totally different from the golden hawk's wing dream, which she did not even connect to the Seanchan IIRC.

That Dream of confronting Rand with a Seanchan woman with her could be nothing big (Bethamin or Seta). Or all these Seanchan Woman in her Dreams are Tuon plus the Hawk. It would thematically make sense due to the magnitude of such an alliance that has Aes Sedai and the Seanchan allying would be.

Terez
01-16-2011, 06:29 AM
That Dream of confronting Rand with a Seanchan woman with her could be nothing big (Bethamin or Seta).
Yes, we know.

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2011, 01:33 PM
She was referring to a dream she had way back when about Rand confronting her and the women with her, one of whom was a Seanchan. Totally different from the golden hawk's wing dream, which she did not even connect to the Seanchan IIRC.

Yeah, I remember about the other dream of the Seanchan woman who was with Egwene. And you're probably right that Egwene's thoughts quoted above may refer to that dream. However, the wording makes me unsure about it, and here's why:

It's true that Egwene doesn't connect the female golden hawk with Seanchan when she has that dream:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.

The wording 'she and the hawk were tied together somehow' is very similar wording to what Egwene used in her thoughts that I quoted before: 'a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her'. So I wonder if Egwene may have later interpreted the dream of the golden hawk to mean a Seanchan woman.

Also, in the dream of Rand confronting her, Egwene does not think of the Seanchan woman specifically as 'tied to her', just as 'with her':

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 48 - Following the Craft

Tel'aran'rhiod still showed her little of immediate use. Sometimes there had been glimpses of Rand, or Mat, or Perrin, and more in her own dreams without the ter'angreal, but nothing of which she could make any sense. The Seanchan, who she refused to think about. Nightmares of a Whitecloak putting Master Luhhan in the middle of a huge, toothed trap for bait. Why should Perrin have a falcon on his shoulder, and what was important about him choosing between that axe he wore now and a blacksmith's hammer? What did it mean that Mat was dicing with the Dark One, and why did he keep shouting, "I am coming!" and why did she think in the dream that he was shouting at her? And Rand. He had been sneaking through utter darkness toward Callandor, while all around him six men and five women walked, some hunting him and some ignoring him, some trying to guide him toward the shining crystal sword and some trying to stop him from reaching it, appearing not to know where he was, or only to see him in flashes. One of the men had eyes of flame, and he wanted Rand dead with a desperation she could nearly taste. She thought she knew him. Ba'alzamon. But who were the others? Rand in that dry, dusty chamber again, with those small creatures settling into his skin. Rand confronting a horde of Seanchan. Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan. It was all too confusing. She had to stop thinking about Rand and the others and put her mind to what was right ahead of her. What is the Black Ajah up to? Why don't I dream something about them? Light, why can't I learn to make it do what I want?

So yeah, Egwene could have been thinking of the Seanchan woman in this dream being somehow tied to her because the woman is with Egwene's group. It just seems a bit ambiguous to me because of the strong similarity in wording between her thoughts and the golden hawk dream.

Regardless, the point stands that there is nothing evidence-wise from the books that I am aware of that would preclude the Seanchan woman on the cliff and the golden hawk corresponding to the same person.

Terez
01-16-2011, 05:20 PM
Edit: I'm not sure why anyone would think the words 'tied to her' were somehow indicative of anything important. They're pretty loose words. Egwene never said that the golden hawk was Seanchan, so there is no reason to assume that she believes that, especially when we don't even know for sure that it refers to Seanchan (it could refer to Berelain). But the Seanchan woman with Egwene definitely suggests a tie, since the Seanchan women is part of 'the women with her'.

skaywalker
01-17-2011, 02:18 AM
I've always thought that the golden hawk "tied to her somehow" was Berelain. The wording is vague but when you think about it - if Berelain and Galad marry and Egwene and Gawyn marry(something that both couples are close on doing) then Egwene and Berelain will be tied in a way.

Berelain is also repeatedly shown as a hawk throughout a number of visions. The Seanchan however almost every time are shown as ravens or as themselves.

metaphor
01-17-2011, 09:11 PM
I've always thought that the golden hawk "tied to her somehow" was Berelain. The wording is vague but when you think about it - if Berelain and Galad marry and Egwene and Gawyn marry(something that both couples are close on doing) then Egwene and Berelain will be tied in a way.

Berelain is also repeatedly shown as a hawk throughout a number of visions. The Seanchan however almost every time are shown as ravens or as themselves.

That is true. I had forgotten about other dreams and Min's visions showing Berelaing as a hawk.


In any case, even if it was Fortuona, she and Egwene are already tied, somehow.
Fortuona's decision to carry out the attack led Egwene to become amyrlin, and her decision to use the bloodknives caused the events that made Egwene bond Gawin.
She has decided for another attack on the Tower, and it's probable that some decision by Egwene will affect Fortuona directly.
So they are tied, even if they have never met.