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Juan
01-14-2011, 11:29 AM
I've been reading countless suggestions and mentions of Ishamael being active through history and interfering with major events.

For example, it seems to be widely believed that Ishamael interfered with the Seanchan prophecies. Also, people think he had to do with the Trolloc Wars. People also say he had something to do with Artur Hawking.

Throughout all my re-reads, I have never gotten the impression that he's been the cause of these things. Maybe I missed it. I'm pretty sure I read RJ saying that Ishamael wasn't like other Forsaken in that he could be active in the world for certain periods of times. But how does this mean that he actually interfered with the specific events he's attributed to causing.

For all you believers of this: where did you get that idea? Is there are any proof? Like I said, I haven't really seen proof although I could be wrong and could have missed this. But I don't think these things and others were Ishamael's doings. I think he was doing other random things in preparation for when the Dragon Reborn walked again.

Madgod
01-14-2011, 11:43 AM
Quote from TEOTW, Chapter 14:
A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.

This strongly implies he did something over the centuries, assuming that he isn't being completely insane when he says this.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 11:44 AM
No offense, but I am really starting to question whether some of the newer members have read the books.

...I guess thats not fair though and maybe I expect too much.

I think most of us starting getting the idea in TEotW when Ishy said he did some of those things. A re-read might help change your mind.

Juan
01-14-2011, 11:54 AM
I always sort of assumed he was freaking crazy and disregarded most of what he said... Sure we've seen he's clever and can act surprisingly sane at times, but it's been strongly stated multiple times that he's mad.

And how about the Seanchan prophecies? Where's did people get the idea that he changed those?

It's been a while since I've re-read. And details like this, which I generally disregarded and dismissed as insane ramblings, escaped me.

Weird Harold
01-14-2011, 12:05 PM
I've been reading countless suggestions and mentions of Ishamael being active through history and interfering with major events.

For example, it seems to be widely believed that Ishamael interfered with the Seanchan prophecies. Also, people think he had to do with the Trolloc Wars. People also say he had something to do with Artur Hawking.

...

For all you believers of this: where did you get that idea? Is there are any proof? ...

The BWB has some of the evidence, and it would take all day to remember nd track down all of the references becasue they're one sentence here and one sentence there and oblique references to things that happened when he was known to be free -- as he was when Luthair was dispatched to Seanchan with the "One Pure Copy" of the KC.

Alviarin makes at least two references to Ishamael's involvement with the BA.

One of Rand's ancestors refers to an Aes Sedai that told him Ishamael was still loose. (probably loose again, but that's nitpicking) IIRC, that was the same ancestor that was told about the Ogier being hired to build the White Tower and Tar Valon.

I think the WOTFAQ has a section on Ishamael that collects most of the references and traces the logic of the deduced claims -- like the Seanchan prophecies corruption.

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 12:05 PM
And how about the Seanchan prophecies? Where's did people get the idea that he changed those?That's the "doom yet to come" from the above quote.

Together with the fact that as far as we know, the major difference betweeen the Seanchan KC and the ordinary one (the bit about the Dragon having to serve) was found in only one single copy: the one that Luthair Paendrag took with him. Changing that copy would have done precisely what Ishamael claimed he had done.

Juan
01-14-2011, 12:12 PM
Ah I see. Thanks guys! This is really helping clear up these little nags in the story that had been nagging me.

As you've likely heard me say in other posts, I'm not an expert on prophecies, I usually just don't care about them; I skim over them, and pretty much forget them. I really just don't care about them for some reason...

Anyway now that you understand that, I have a questions about these Seanchan prophecies that Ishamael supposedly changed.

What are the differences about the Seanchan prophecies and the non-Seanchan ones? I know one of the difference is that one says the binding of the nine moons to him thing and the other about kneeling to the Crystal Throne and all that. But what other differences are there that we've seen? Because if they're similar enough except for that bit, I wonder how Tuon would react if shown that. Especially if you could use the One Power to show how old a document was or whatever.

Mam A'Lemur
01-14-2011, 12:18 PM
No offense, but I am really starting to question whether some of the newer members have read the books.

...I guess thats not fair though and maybe I expect too much.

I think most of us starting getting the idea in TEotW when Ishy said he did some of those things. A re-read might help change your mind.

:( I've read the series thru a couple of times. Just because I can't remember every plot device doesn't make me less of a fan. We can't all have eidetic memories of all the things RJ has penned. For me, it's easier to get an answer on the board, rather than search my books. Even if I remember reading something, I can't always remember which book it's in.

Juan
01-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Yeah don't pay Gimp any mind. Read other of Gimp's posts and he seems to be a bit on the cranky side today and is ranting quite a bit.

I generally ignore those kind of posts because they're condescending even if you add a no offense before the rest of the message. No offense, but you're an ignorant. Gee thanks, now I'm not offended. Yeah... doesn't really work like that. So for the sake of civility, Mam, I believe you and I should ignore those kinds of posts. :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 12:33 PM
What are the differences about the Seanchan prophecies and the non-Seanchan ones? I know one of the difference is that one says the binding of the nine moons to him thing and the other about kneeling to the Crystal Throne and all that. But what other differences are there that we've seen? Because if they're similar enough except for that bit, I wonder how Tuon would react if shown that. Especially if you could use the One Power to show how old a document was or whatever.We don't know of any other specific differences. But, just to make things more entertaining, we do know that there are specific Seanchan prophecies which are also going to come true. Those prophecies originated there, though, so they would not be included in Luthair's copy.

Just because I can't remember every plot device doesn't make me less of a fan.Ah, then what is it that does make you less of a fan?
Sorry, but you walked so straight into that; someone had to make this joke.

Mam A'Lemur
01-14-2011, 12:33 PM
@Juan (hahaha, did this for the first time just to be a pain!) I know what you mean. I just feel cantankerous myself today. :)

Mam A'Lemur
01-14-2011, 12:39 PM
Ah, then what is it that does make you less of a fan?
Sorry, but you walked so straight into that; someone had to make this joke.

Pompous statements on message boards? LOL
Don't get me wrong. I love WOT, and I love Theoryland. And I love all of you crazy people too...
but what is it that some say? Even the Devil can quote scripture? Hmmm... :D

Weird Harold
01-14-2011, 01:21 PM
What are the differences about the Seanchan prophecies and the non-Seanchan ones? I know one of the difference is that one says the binding of the nine moons to him thing and the other about kneeling to the Crystal Throne and all that. But what other differences are there that we've seen?

Other than Ba'alzamon's claim of a "Doom yet to come," this is EVERYTHING we actually know about the corruption:

The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still. ...


The binds the nine moons to him line is a throwaway example from tGH that may or may not be related to the corruption -- it probably is, and is usually presented as "the difference." It is, however, just the only known passage that would conflict with "serving the Crystal Throne."

There's lots of deduction and inference built into any claim of knowing "what the difference is" but the only thing we actually know is quoted above.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 01:26 PM
I generally ignore those kind of posts because they're condescending even if you add a no offense before the rest of the message.

I do apologize if you saw it as condescending, and I can understand why you would. But honestly when you say that you've:

...been reading countless suggestions and mentions of Ishamael being active through history and interfering with major events.

To me that indicates you have been reading this over a decent period of time. Definitely long enough to do some research before asking. Instead you basically stated: "I don't see how what you guys are saying is right. I think I am right. Prove me wrong." A lot of threads on here try and prove something or have an actual dialog. Your thread merely showed a lack of interest in looking into the subject yourself and instead of wanting to discuss, you wanted it spoon fed.

:( I've read the series thru a couple of times. Just because I can't remember every plot device doesn't make me less of a fan. We can't all have eidetic memories of all the things RJ has penned. For me, it's easier to get an answer on the board, rather than search my books. Even if I remember reading something, I can't always remember which book it's in.

Neither can I or most people not named Terez. But you can Google, and so can Juan. There are many resources available on the internet and they are all relatively easy to find.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 01:27 PM
@Juan (hahaha, did this for the first time just to be a pain!) I know what you mean. I just feel cantankerous myself today. :)

:p

Weird Harold
01-14-2011, 01:36 PM
Neither can I or most people not named Terez. But you can Google, and so can Juan. There are many resources available on the internet and they are all relatively easy to find.

Actually, I find google to be somewhat useless for researching specifics of the WOT.

If a HCFF doesn't have this site bookmarked they can hardly call themselves a HCFF. :D

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/i/ishamael.html

That particular page is everything you could ever want to know about Ishamael -- up to the point he's reincarnated as Moridin; there's a separate page for Moridin.

Mam A'Lemur
01-14-2011, 01:37 PM
Neither can I or most people not named Terez. But you can Google, and so can Juan. There are many resources available on the internet and they are all relatively easy to find.

:eek: Is this not an internet resource???!
I kid. I've learned a lot about WOT lurking on this site, as well as since I've become official. :)

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 01:39 PM
There is also our very own "Links" page above that has a number of resources I use regularly. Including Encylopaedia WoT.

Juan
01-14-2011, 03:42 PM
@Gimp
No hard feelings man. As to the reading for a decent period of time... yeah you could say that. In case you haven't noticed in some threads I start I post theories or suggestions, in others I ask questions. Hence this forum. If I ask a question it's to get answers and opinions. That's why I asked why people believed this. I can't look up people's train of thoughts on google, now can I? If you feel that I should do more research or whatever instead of being helpful and answering my question or addressing someone else's post or whatever, that's fine.. but then you might as well just not post in my thread. I do thank you however for your opinion. My intent of the thread wasn't a you're wrong, I'm right, so prove me wrong. It was a I don't understand nor see why you believe this because I don't recall, or I haven't seen evidence that would give people such a wide and strong belief in the whole Ishamael was responsible for all these things. If you felt I was acting condescending myself, though, I apologize for that wasn't my intent. I was trying to inform myself.

@Madgod and Harold
Thanks. You both have shown me that very likely Ishamael did in did play a large part in those events instead of just claiming them as mad ramblings. Very interesting.

@Mam
hahahah it's the new trend. :P

subwoofer
01-14-2011, 07:49 PM
Ahhh whatever- the purpose of these threads is to discuss the topic we love WoT. If folks don't wanna say something, opt out or move on. What is old hat for some may be new to others. On other sites I have been rambling for years, and I can't even remember what I said, heck, I can't remember what I had for breakfast. At the end of the day, we are all gaining a greater appreciation for the world RJ created and hopefully getting into some of the finer nuances of the story. Good times:)