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New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 06:47 AM
As Caemlyn burns, what - if any - force can come to its rescue?

A brief summary of the forces in the vicinity:

Andoran army - Numbering 130,000 soldiers led by Birgitte, 8 Windfinders, 125 Kin + an unknown number of Aes Sedai.

Band of the Red Hand - 25,000 cavalry and foot, yet absent of their leader. Although Grady awaits somewhere outside Caemlyn to re-open the Gateway for Mat, Thom and co. - its unlikely he'll fulfil that, what's more likely is him up to his necks battling Shadowspawn and possibly Dreadlords within the city walls. Meaning the Band fight for the duration without their spiritual leader!

Black Tower - Although its on Caemlyn's doorstep, any aid seems unlikely. 350+ Asha'man.

Legion of the Dragon - Supposedly encamped somewhere west of Caemlyn; at last count numbering in the tens of thousands. If they haven't been marshalled for the meet with the Amyrlin they should still be in Andor.

Army protecting Illian from the Seanchan - Still, for the most part, stationed in western Illian. Gregorin would appear to be in charge of the Westlanders. 35,000 crossbowmen, 200,000 Aiel spears, 2000 Wise Ones, 80,000 Illianers, 10,000 Cairhienin, 175+ Asha'man with 21 bonded Aes Sedai. Not exactly in Caemlyn's vicinity, but an enormous force with literally 100s of channellers capable of making Gateways. So they can't be discounted.

Ofcourse with Travelling its a dubious assertion to say anyone's 'near' or 'far away' relative to Caemlyn - but Verin's letter gave the impression that the force of Shadowspawn was so large that victory or defeat would be determined pretty quickly, and only those close enough to heed the alarm may be capable of doing anything about it.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5647/wotannotatedmap.jpg

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 07:01 AM
Most of the Andoran army would be at the Field of Merrilor. About half the Band is there too.
And a very pertinent question is: was anyone capable of Traveling left behind to sound the alarm?

New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 07:13 AM
Grady. And theirs plenty of Aes Sedai, Elayne included, and Kin capable of forming Gateways.

The difficulty is the intensity with which the battle's going to erupt. Will it be feasible in the timescale we're talking, for anyone to Travel anywhere, sound the alarm, and make any kind of difference in the battle's outcome? It's going to take time for any coherent marshalling of an army comparable in size with the Shadowspawn army assaulting Caemlyn.

Fie
01-15-2011, 07:17 AM
Maybe the Ogier will be so mad that ogier-built-inner-caemlyn would be destroyed so that they at least get moving and close that damned waygate. So there won´t be THAT many Trollocs as could be at least.

David Selig
01-15-2011, 07:20 AM
Grady went with Perrin to Merrilor.

I am suspecting there will be some kind of a reason that there won't be anyone able to contact the Merrilor armies about the invasion, i.e. a Dreamspike or some BA plot to kill the Kin women remaining in Caemlyn. Otherwise this invasion would be pretty short lived once Elayne, Rand and co hear about it and send the huge reinforcements they have available. Unless the Shadow is also attacking at other places (besides the Borderlands) and forcing the Light side guys to divide their forces.

New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 07:30 AM
Did he? Which Asha'man is waiting to open a Gateway for Mat? I was sure it was Grady.

Just realised Elayne went to the Field of Merrilor. Doh!

Presumably Birgitte and most of the Kin have gone with her too?

One Armed Gimp
01-15-2011, 07:37 AM
Did he? Which Asha'man is waiting to open a Gateway for Mat? I was sure it was Grady.

It is, but that doesn't negate him from being with Perrin in FoM.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 08:16 AM
Did he? Which Asha'man is waiting to open a Gateway for Mat? I was sure it was Grady.Grady could simply ferry Mat, Thom and Moiraine straight to Merrilor. So he would not need to be in Caemlyn, and thus probably won't be.

subwoofer
01-15-2011, 09:21 AM
I dunno, the whole thing smacks of a "setup". Look at it this way:

-Mat has the whole city working like great guns (er... no pun intended, it just happened) to produce these cannons.
-Everyone buggers off and there is just a skeleton crew to defend a Great City.
-Just in the nick of time, the most brilliant tactician alive finds out about impending doom.
-Oh yeah, and the cannons need to be field tested and wha? There is nothing really good to shoot at... along comes an army of Trollocs- how convenient.

I think it will work out fine. This is just a set up to prove what a great equalizer the cannons will be. Instead of having to field a large and sizable army against the Trollocs, Mat and a few guys can level the playing field with big heavy... er... iron balls.

This was also hinted at with the crossbows and cranks. With speed and a small force, Mat managed to fool the Seanchan into thinking they were getting their asses kicked by several large forces. IMHO this is just another way that Mat proves that numbers are not everything.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 09:49 AM
Of course, a big city with lots of houses, hills and winding streets is not really the most ideal environment for a field test of artillery tactics. But then, all that is needed to deal with that is taking the high ground, and obliterating all buildings. Once that's done, the defence of Caemlyn will be simple.

subwoofer
01-15-2011, 09:55 AM
Of course, a big city with lots of houses, hills and winding streets is not really the most ideal environment for a field test of artillery tactics. But then, all that is needed to deal with that is taking the high ground, and obliterating all buildings. Once that's done, the defence of Caemlyn will be simple.

Exactly! Then the Ogier will come all honked off at the new architectural planning committee... re- Mat's Dragons. They could file an injunction. Maybe debate that at the Great Stump.

Who knows, maybe cannon balls are a new way to put out fires? :D

New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 10:54 AM
Subwoofer: I dunno, the whole thing smacks of a "setup". Look at it this way:
-Just in the nick of time, the most brilliant tactician alive finds out about [Caemlyn's] impending doom.

Agree that it seems the perfect occasion for Mat to demonstrate just how great a military tactician he actually is, not to mention being a riveting read and ample opportunity for the kind of heroical exertions that should make good fodder for a future Gleeman's tale, but...!

But the dragons wasted on the decimation of Caemlyn? Probably killing more Caemlyns than the Shadowspawn army in the process...?!?

Plus Talmanes sounded the alarm at dusk, whereas Mat doesn't expect Grady to open the Gateway until - is it noon the next day or something? Caemlyn looks set to be rubble long before Mat gets anywhere near the fray.

Ofcourse Moraine knows the weave for Gateways [actually she doesn't, so just ignore the rest of this post] - and her Sa'angreal should make her strong enough - so maybe Moraine will open a Gateway allowing Mat to assume command of the Band mid-battle...[she won't]

One Armed Gimp
01-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Ofcourse Moraine knows the weave for Gateways - and her Sa'angreal should make her strong enough - so maybe it'll be Moraine who opens a Gateway allowing Mat to assume command of the Band mid-battle...

When did she pick that up? I'm fairly certain she did not know it before entering the doorway.

New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 11:01 AM
Lmao, doesn't she lol? I was sure she did! :o I'm so glad your here to correct all my clangers One Armed Gimp ;)

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 11:03 AM
Egwene figured it out only after Moiraine had gone.
Rand showed her a skimming Gateway at least once, but I doubt that did her much good.

One Armed Gimp
01-15-2011, 11:07 AM
I do what I can.

New Futurist Man
01-15-2011, 11:09 AM
*Tips hat* Much obliged.

Weird Harold
01-15-2011, 11:46 AM
But the dragons wasted on the decimation of Caemlyn? Probably killing more Caemlyns than the Shadowspawn army in the process...?!?

Actually, not all that much of Caemlyn is going to be destroyed. At least not by the Dragons.

Two dragons in and intersection will be able to clear a street in both directions with cannister -- four if they're using solid shot. And only buildings at a 'T' intersection along the line of fire would be damaged.

Buildings along each street covered by Dragon fire might be purposely damaged to block escape routes and funnel the Trollocs into the dragon fire. But that damage wouldn't be a result of dragon fire and wouldn't be that extensive; without explosives and/or direct dragon fire, there's not any easy way to destroy a building in the WOT -- except fire and the defenders aren't going to be setting any fires.

All Tallmanes has to do is set up the dragons at the first intersection where the rollocs and fires haven't advanced to and the trollocs won't be advancing any further. Find four intersenctions that mark a square perimieter around the Waygate and the invasion can be contained with far fewer number than the trollocs can concentrate a the point of attack.

GonzoTheGreat
01-15-2011, 12:09 PM
Assuming, of course, that the Trollocs don't know how to enter (and exit) buildings. Which, I have to admit, may be an assumption on which Talmanes will have to gamble his life.

subwoofer
01-15-2011, 12:31 PM
But the dragons wasted on the decimation of Caemlyn? Probably killing more Caemlyns than the Shadowspawn army in the process...?!?

Plus Talmanes sounded the alarm at dusk, whereas Mat doesn't expect Grady to open the Gateway until - is it noon the next day or something? Caemlyn looks set to be rubble long before Mat gets anywhere near the fray.


Man! You're really weighed down by the details:p

If Caemlyn's rubble by the time the Matster gets there, then it is a moot point about the Dragon Eggs and rubble... they're gonna make rubble outta the... rubble? Meh.

And hopefully the citizens have the sense the Creator gave them to head for the hills long since... although the ostrich syndrome runs long and strong in Randland.

Point being, I am sure all the Trollocs didn't fit into the city yet. Mat can destroy the outlying army and then work his way closer to defending the gates of the inner city or Royal Palace or whatever. At the end of the day Mat is gonna try out his Dragons on the local Trolloc population and they all die and maybe the odd building gets an unplanned reno in the process. Elayne has deep pockets... after all didn't she find some kinda mine out in the boonies? Caemlyn was getting kinda run down anyways.

FelixPax
01-15-2011, 12:37 PM
As Caemlyn burns, what - if any - force can come to its rescue?

A brief summary of the forces in the vicinity:


Who else is in or near Caemlyn?


Bands of men surrounding Caemlyn of unknown loyalties. (Not a good sign in my estimation, nor Mat Cauthon's point of view in TofM book. Hanlon's goons return?)


A fair sized group of Aes Sedai including Myrelle, Nisao, Faolain, Theodrin among others, all at the gates of the Asha'man Black Tower. (They probably will themselves be busy fighting soon: Taim's goons.)


A large number of Kin who fled with Elayne originally. A second group of Kin who later fled to Caemlyn from Seanchan controlled areas (Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara). A third group of Kin who have come to Caemlyn from Tear, Illian, Western Andor based on the newly created trading system of traveling gates. A fourth group of Kin who likely fled the chaos found within Murandy & Cairhien early in the series.



Speculations.



Caemlyn's New City will completely be destroyed
Caemlyn's Palace wall will barely hold, because of the combination of Queens Guards, Nobles Soldiers, and most importantly the Kin.
Who controls the Caemlyn's New City Wall & Gates will help determine, whether the invading Trollocs can be defeated or not.



I see at least three main problems from the view of point of Caemlyn's Palace area:



Will Asha'man or Black Ajah move enemy behind the wall or not?
Will a Dreamspike be moved from the Black Tower to the Caemlyn Palace to limit supplies and aid, in or out?
Will the Wall and Gates be able to hold or not?




One set of problems for the remaining groups of the Band of Red Hand are:



If Talmanes can get into Caemlyn's New City, will his group be able to get out alive?
Remember those bands of men of uncertain loyalties surrounding Caemlyn?
I can foresee those uncertain men becoming an Anvil, and the Trollocs becoming the Hammer. Too dangerous flee the New City into the countryside.




Talmanes' group of men, needs I suspect to move his forces into Old Caemlyn, and stay behind the Palace's Walls. Then use the Dragon Eggs' to level all the Trollocs & Enemies in New Caemlyn. As long as the New City's Wall holds, the space between will become a dying zone for Trollocs and anyone else who stays behind.


Yes I suspect Talmanes will be be caught in a city under Siege.


Who do I wonder about in Caemlyn?


Setalle Anan, who last was staying in an Inn some where in Caemlyn. She's one important key for the side of the Light. Why? She witnessed Mat Cauthon's Treaty with Tuon agreed to, among others reasons.

jana
01-15-2011, 01:32 PM
to whoever asked, ya, Grady is supposed to arrive the next day at noon. So that's a lot of hours for bad things to happen. Hopefully Talmanes and Olver can save the day.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 02:20 PM
Who else is in or near Caemlyn?


Bands of men surrounding Caemlyn of unknown loyalties. (Not a good sign in my estimation, nor Mat Cauthon's point of view in TofM book. Hanlon's goons return?)


A fair sized group of Aes Sedai including Myrelle, Nisao, Faolain, Theodrin among others, all at the gates of the Asha'man Black Tower. (They probably will themselves be busy fighting soon: Taim's goons.)


A large number of Kin who fled with Elayne originally. A second group of Kin who later fled to Caemlyn from Seanchan controlled areas (Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara). A third group of Kin who have come to Caemlyn from Tear, Illian, Western Andor based on the newly created trading system of traveling gates. A fourth group of Kin who likely fled the chaos found within Murandy & Cairhien early in the series.



Speculations.



Caemlyn's New City will completely be destroyed
Caemlyn's Palace wall will barely hold, because of the combination of Queens Guards, Nobles Soldiers, and most importantly the Kin.
Who controls the Caemlyn's New City Wall & Gates will help determine, whether the invading Trollocs can be defeated or not.



I see at least three main problems from the view of point of Caemlyn's Palace area:



Will Asha'man or Black Ajah move enemy below the wall or not?
Will a Dreamspike be moved from the Black Tower to the Caemlyn Palace to limit supplies and aid, in or out?
Will the Wall and Gates be able to hold or not?




One set of problems for the remaining groups of the Band of Red Hand are:



If Talmanes can get into Caemlyn's New City, will his group be able to get out alive?
Remember those bands of men of uncertain loyalties surrounding Caemlyn?
I can foresee those uncertain men becoming an Anvil, and the Trollocs becoming the Hammer. Too dangerous flee the New City into the countryside.




Talmanes' group of men, needs I suspects to move his forces into Old Caemlyn, and stay behind the Palace's Walls. Then use the Dragon Eggs' to level all the Trollocs & Enemies in New Caemlyn. As long as the New City's Wall holds, the space between will become a dying zone for Trollocs and anyone else who stays behind.


Yes I suspect Talmanes will be be caught in a city under Siege.


Who do I wonder about in Caemlyn?


Setalle Anan, who last was staying in an Inn some where in Caemlyn. She's one important key for the side of the Light. Why? She witnessed Mat Cauthon's Treaty with Tuon agreed to, among others reasons.

The viewing Min has about Elayne being tied to a severed hand. This viewing came true in TOM. The Band is split. Severed can mean two things.

1: They're split for good, which would indicate that the part of the Band that's in Caemlyn with Talmanes is going to fall (heavy casualties) holding back the Trollocs.

2: They're only severed insofor as they won't be re-united again for a while. A lot less likely.

I like number 1 happening for a few reasons. Mostly, the history of the original Band. It seems that's where this is all leading, history repeating itself. The remaining part of the Band that's with Elayne will become Matrim's personal bodyguard of elite forces ala King Aemon.

Also, the Dreamspike I feel pretty confident that once Demandrad arrives at the Black Tower to take over the Shadow's war effort in the South (Moridin directs it in the North/Blight), he will extend the Dreamspike to cover Caemlyn.

People often wonder where Demandrad is and who he's impersonating (because that's what Forsaken do right?), but he's just been plotting and waiting for his moment to strike, as any good General does. His personality is one of outdoing Lews Therin. To outdo him would be to take over Lews Therin empire - strikes silmutaneously at Caemlyn, Tear, Cairhen, Illian and perhaps Ebou Dar all at once. In one fell swoop Demandrad will have conquered Lews Therin Empire. It fits his personality and goes along with all the Light being at FOM. If Demandrad's going to play his hand, now is the time. And we have been promised by Sanderson that Demandrad is a major player in AMOL.

An additional piece that's been running through my head lately is Jordan saying Kod --> AMOL. Jordan wrote KOD to be the setup for the final book. One way he did this was with the epilogue of KOD where we see Taim and his 100 Darkfriends. Jordan was giving us a clue here. Only, we've been given more clues than we were to have by splitting the books, thereby making AMOL a little easier to figure out. Examples would be Androl's POV and the Shadow's subterfuge is over, it's war now as Rand says and they've started turning channelers to the Shadow forcibly now with 13x13's. Once the Black Tower is secure (Taim's job), Demandrad will arrive. Remember the colors of the room etc when Pevara is entering? Hehe, sounds like a Forsaken's command room perfectly.

Weird Harold
01-15-2011, 02:21 PM
Something to consider:

This is not the first time Trollocs have invaded Caemlyn, and probably through the same Waygate.

Does anyone know for sure where the Caemlyn Ogier Grove and Waygate are located? The Trolloc Rahvin brought in were in the palace grounds and spread out into the Inner City as they tried to escape after Rahvin was eliminated.

Also, it would be nice to figure out which city gate Talmanes and the Band are headed for -- are they camped along the Lugard road or north of the city, towards where the Legion of the Dragon and Saldeans hung out and trained.

http://www.angelfire.com/dragon/bekah/maps/caemlyn.gif is the map on page 239 of the BWB -- it loads slow for me, so...

I'm not sure where this one came from, but it seems to match the official map but it is more detailed and in color -- it's also huge, but it loads faster than the smaller one.

http://images.wikia.com/wot/images/5/57/Caemlynmap.png

Terez
01-15-2011, 02:26 PM
I think that's one of Dominic's maps. Looks like the style is the same. He's done some really good ones based on the maps in the book and a few details he managed to squeeze out of Alan.

FelixPax
01-15-2011, 03:14 PM
Does anyone know for sure where the Caemlyn Ogier Grove and Waygate are located? The Trolloc Rahvin brought in were in the palace grounds and spread out into the Inner City as they tried to escape after Rahvin was eliminated.



It is known the Waygate in Caemlyn is found in the New City.


How? Based on the journey from the Queens' Blessing Inn to the Waygate. No mention is given of them crossing a wall nor a town gate. That journey's scene is written below:


When the run let out into a street, Loial chose his direction without a pause. He seemed to know exactly where he was going, now, as if the route he needed to follow was becoming clearer. Rand did not understand how the Ogier could find the Waygate, and Loial had not been able to explain very well. He just knew, he said; he could feel it. Loial claimed it was like trying to explain how to breathe.

As they hurried up the street Rand looked back toward the corner where The Queen’s Blessing lay. According to Lamgwin, there were still half a dozen Whitecloaks not far down from that corner. Their interest was all on the inn, but a noise would surely bring them. No one was out at this hour for a reputable reason. The horseshoes seemed to ring on the paving stones like bells; the lanterns clattered as if the packhorse were shaking them deliberately. Not until they had rounded another corner did he stop looking over his shoulder. He heard relieved sighs from the other Emond’s Fielders as they came round it, too.

Loial appeared to be following the most direct path to the Waygate, wherever it took them. Sometimes they trotted down broad avenues, empty save for an occasional dog skulking in the dark. Sometimes they hurried along alleys as narrow as the stable run, where things squished under an unwary step. Nynaeve complained softly about the resulting smells, but no one slowed down.

The darkness began to lessen, fading toward a dark gray. Faint glimmers of dawn pearled the sky above the eastern rooftops. A few people appeared on the streets, bundled up against the early cold, heads down while they yet dreamed of their beds. Most paid no mind to anyone else. Only a handful even glanced at the line of people and horses with Loial at its head, and only one of those truly saw them.

That one man flicked his eyes at them, just like the others, already sinking back into his own thoughts when suddenly he stumbled and almost fell, turning himself back around to stare. There was only light enough to see shapes, but that was too much. Seen at a distance by himself, the Ogier could have passed for a tall man leading an ordinary horse, or for an ordinary man leading an under-sized horse. With the others in a line behind him to give perspective, Loial looked exactly as big as he was, half again as tall as any man should be. The man took one look and, with a strangled cry, set off running, his cloak flapping behind him.

There would be more people in the streets soon—very soon. Rand eyed a woman hurrying past on the other side of the street, seeing nothing but the pavement in front of her feet. More people to notice soon. The eastern sky grew lighter.

“There,” Loial announced at last. “It is under there.” It was a shop he pointed to, still closed for the night. The tables out front were bare, the awnings over them rolled up tight, the door stoutly shuttered. The windows above, where the shopkeeper lived, were still dark.

“Under?” Mat exclaimed incredulously. “How in the Light can we—?”

Moiraine raised a hand that cut him off, and motioned for them to follow her into the alley beside the shop. Horses and people together, they crowded the opening between the two buildings. Shaded by the walls, it was darker there than on the street, near to full night again.

“There must be a cellar door,” Moiraine muttered. “Ah, yes.”



The Eye of the World, Chapter 44 "The Dark Along the Ways" - Rand point of view; with Loial, Lan, Nynaeve, Egwene, Mat Cauthon, Perrin


The Caemlyn Palace and the "Inner City" are on the top of hills. Nice for battle purposes.


The Inner City was built on hills, and much of what the Ogier had made still remained. Where streets in the New City mostly ran every which way in a crazy-quilt, here they followed the curves of the hills as if they were a natural part of the earth. Sweeping rises and dips presented new and surprising vistas at every turn. Parks seen from different angles, even from above, where their walks and monuments made patterns pleasing to the eye though barely touched with green. Towers suddenly revealed, tile-covered walls glittering in the sunlight with a hundred changing colors. Sudden rises where the gaze was thrown out across the entire city to the rolling plains and forests beyond. All in all, it would have been something to see if not for the crowd that hurried him along before he had a chance to really take it in. And all those curving streets made it impossible to see very far ahead.

Abruptly he was swept around a bend, and there was the Palace. The streets, even following the natural contours of the land, had been laid out to spiral in on this—this gleeman’s tale of pale spires and golden domes and intricate stonework traceries, with the banner of Andor waving from every prominence, a centerpiece for which all the other vistas had been designed. It seemed more sculpted by an artist than simply built like ordinary buildings.

That glimpse showed him he would get no nearer. No one was being allowed close to the Palace. Queen’s Guards made scarlet ranks ten deep flanking the Palace gates. Along the tops of the white walls, on high balconies and towers, more Guards stood rigidly straight, bows precisely slanted across breastplated chests.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 39 "Weaving the Web" -- Rand point of view, walking to see Logain in the Inner City from the Queen's Blessing Inn

Weird Harold
01-15-2011, 04:54 PM
It is known the Waygate in Caemlyn is found in the New City

Thanks, Felix.

I was thinking that Waygate in the Basement was the one in Cairhein (Barthanes estate?)

So the Trollocs should be outside the castle walls and inside the inner city walls.

One othe thing I forgot to ask: Where are the Dragons stored? They're in a warehouse in the Inner City, aren't they? Or are they stored closer to the New City walls?

The Immortal One
01-20-2011, 09:00 PM
So the Trollocs should be outside the castle walls and inside the inner city walls.

No, not inside the inner walls. They would be between the outer walls and the inner walls. The Inner City and the palace would be safe (for now), but not the New City.

On that coloured picture the Inner walls are the thin white ones, the outer walls are the thicker grey ones. The trollocs will be between these, somewhere.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 04:29 AM
No, not inside the inner walls. They would be between the outer walls and the inner walls. The Inner City and the palace would be safe (for now), but not the New City.

On that coloured picture the Inner walls are the thin white ones, the outer walls are the thicker grey ones. The trollocs will be between these, somewhere.
Right you are, I misread what Felix said.

Talmanes has a significant problem then; he has to force the outer walls, fight through or avoid the Trollocs and get to the warehouse where the Dragons are stored. It makes the tactical problem much more complicated and difficult.

Lohikaarme
01-21-2011, 07:53 AM
@New Futurist Man: I like the way you call Mat a spiritual leader :D

Mat has lot to do, will he go to FoM or Caemlyn?

Juan
01-21-2011, 12:56 PM
If Talmanes got access to Traveling, he could use that and put his troops inside and surprise the Trollocs.. The question is whether he'll be able to get his hands on that.. and when if he does.

Talmanes could also theoretically use the Ways to get in.. although that seems like a dumb idea just for the dangers of the ways and the fact that they're already very close to Caemlyn.

Traveling seems to be the best way because other than that, they'll have to lay siege to the city, and Caemlyn wouldn't end up too well.

TankSpill
01-21-2011, 01:21 PM
I'm hoping we'll see a Black Tower Purge (involving Pevara, Logain, and Androl), right in time to get the Black Tower cooking again and come (help) save the day.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 02:30 PM
If Talmanes got access to Traveling, he could use that and put his troops inside and surprise the Trollocs.. The question is whether he'll be able to get his hands on that.. and when if he does.

Perrin's forces, with Grady and Neald are gone to meet Rand, as is Elayne and much of the Royal Army. Getting Talmanes in touch with someone who can Travel border would border on deux ex machina

Talmanes could also theoretically use the Ways to get in.. although that seems like a dumb idea ...

Really dumb since the closest Waygate I can think of is either Cairhein or the ruins of Manatherin. :eek: something like 1000 times as far as Caemlyn

Traveling seems to be the best way because other than that, they'll have to lay siege to the city, and Caemlyn wouldn't end up too well.

They likely won't have to lay seige, but they may well have to fight some of the other mercenary companies around Caemlyn -- either because of confusion or because of DF infiltration of the other forces.

The Band probably has a few DF's but I wouldn't bet on there being a full percent of the Band -- Mat and Talmanes maintain far too high of standards (discipline, training, off-duty decorum, etc) for a DF to voluntarily submit to.

The Band has the resources -- even without the Dragons -- to blow the south-gate, push a corridor to the warehouse with the Dragons (blowing an inner city gate if necessary.) They have the manpower, the 'repeating' crossbows, and the "dragon's eggs" grenadiers.

Anybody know where Aludra is billeted?

Juan
01-21-2011, 02:37 PM
Last we saw her she was in Caemlyn testing her dragons, right?

And I don't know how easy it is to break through a gate.. All I know is it should be close to impossible without the appropriate equipment and the Band, which is fast, doesn't seem like they would carry the siege equipment required. Else they'd be much slower.

The only thing about Trollocs is that they probably don't want take the city.. They just want to destroy as much as possible and kill people there and steal a bunch of stuff. So that kind of battle... the Trollocs may not bother in securing the gates or anything like that. But at the same time. They could very likely be gone before the Band even gets there.

Enigma
01-21-2011, 03:18 PM
And I don't know how easy it is to break through a gate.. All I know is it should be close to impossible without the appropriate equipment and the Band, which is fast, doesn't seem like they would carry the siege equipment required. Else they'd be much slower.

I seem to remember there was some reference to the Band having a banner of masons. Might be useful for getting over a gate.

I would strongly suspect that the Shadow have timed the attack on the city to be around the same time things in the Black Tower come to a head. Confusion all round helps them and if they attack the city too early Taim would have a hard time watching the city burn and shadowspawn running around without doing something. The Logain faction of the Asha'man not to mention the neutrals would ask too many quesions.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2011, 03:20 PM
Using gateways for fighting Trollocs in towns would be a very good idea indeed.
Make a gateway big enough to fill a street (or alley, if your channeler is not that strong). Do not pass through it, instead fight from your side of it. Any Trolloc who "crosses the line" dies immediately, as do other Shadowspawn (apart from gholam, and if you're facing a squad of those then closing the gateway may be a good idea). Use bows, crossbows or Dragons to kill Trollocs at a distance, depending on what you have available.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 03:24 PM
Last we saw her she was in Caemlyn testing her dragons, right?

Yep, but I don't recall if that said where she was billeted. If she's living in the warehouse with the Dragons and a few guards, then she can help open the way for the trained artillerymen of the Band to arrive -- or at least defend warehouse with a couple of Dragons until they arrive.

And I don't know how easy it is to break through a gate.. All I know is it should be close to impossible without the appropriate equipment and the Band, which is fast, doesn't seem like they would carry the siege equipment required. Else they'd be much slower.

The Band doesn't need seige machines, they have explosives -- Remember, Mat's very first non-entertainment use of black powder was to blow a hole in the Stone of Tear. The Bands grenadiers should have enough grenades to make a petard.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2011, 03:26 PM
The Band doesn't need seige machines, they have explosives -- Remember, Mat's very first non-entertainment use of black powder was to blow a hole in the Stone of Tear.No, it wasn't. Before that, he blew up his own campfire, scaring a bunch of DFs who were about to surprise him into giving themselves away.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 03:50 PM
No, it wasn't. Before that, he blew up his own campfire, scaring a bunch of DFs who were about to surprise him into giving themselves away.
I'm not sure I would count inadvertant explosion due to ta'veren effect as a deliberate non-entertainment use of black powder.

That is what gave him the idea of using the bundle of fireworks on the Stone

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2011, 03:57 PM
Yes, but even though it wasn't planned, he did use it as a weapon on that occasion. Making it the first time he did.
Just as Rand's enhancement of Bela was not intentional, not conscious, but still his first case of channeling.

Juan
01-21-2011, 04:29 PM
I wasn't aware they kept their explosives. I figured the explosives they had were Aludra's..

As to using gateways to actually fight.. That'd be pretty insane. Can you imagine it? Put gateways on the floor, so Trollocs step through unaware and die. Don't know if it's possible to place them like that, but I don't see why not. And you place others all around the city in random places and the Trollocs will just kill themselves by walking. And if they stop moving, you give them a bit of encouragement to keep moving by throwing some fireballs and whatever at them... Ahh.. how hilarious that would be. You could totally make it like a maze for them.

Jonai
01-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Hmph, Talmanes can't be defeated. I think you are overestimating the difficulty in breaching a gate, even assuming they are all bared and fully manned. Elayne and Birgitte were having trouble holding gates in KoD, and those yahoos weren't anywhere near the caliber of The Band. Unfortunately, Talmane's cavalry's usefulness suffers a sharp downward spike as soon as they enter the city. Luckily, they have that new crossbow crank. :). Seems that a lot of people are just assuming we are killing Trollocs here, but it seems to me, that Demandred or whoever, did a Moiraine and fried the Waygate from the inside, so there are undoubtedly dreadlords too. It's a shame Talmane's doesn't have deathgate/blossom of fire/arrows of fire trained channelers. Collateral Damage? I never liked Caemlyn anyways. I find it ironic and kind of sad that Loial, Karldin and Rand tried to prevent something like this from happening, and it happened anyways. And no, Talmanes can't use the Ways even if he wanted to. They've all been sealed from the outside.

Terez
01-21-2011, 06:49 PM
Rand only said the Gate was guarded, but it would be funny if he warded it like the one at Shadar Logoth at some point, and all this fuss is essentially over nothing. Trollocs start randomly dropping dead and stuff.

Not likely, but it's a fun thought.

1Powerslave
01-21-2011, 09:21 PM
Rand only said the Gate was guarded, but it would be funny if he warded it like the one at Shadar Logoth at some point, and all this fuss is essentially over nothing. Trollocs start randomly dropping dead and stuff.

Not likely, but it's a fun thought.Hehehe. Yeah, that would be fun. I honestly wouldn't mind that happening. I also wouldn't mind if Caemlyn got sacked and the Band dying while defending it.

Whoever suggested Demandred attacking Rand's main cities simultaneously, I like that idea. The idea that Demandred will seek to destroy most of what Rand has built. Demandred with a hundred companions could probably rip those cities to shreds before Rand can react. Rand will be in meetings at Merrilor. The cities would take heavy casualties, and the people perhaps disperse out into the surrounding area, scared away by exploding buildings and chaos coming from the heart of the city. And outside their walls they will be exposed to roaming floods of Trollocs.

Juan
01-21-2011, 09:28 PM
@Jonai
Gates are pretty hard to break through.. I think you're underestimating them.

And yeah there could be Dreadlords too. A dangerous battle.

@Powerslave
I wouldn't doubt it. It's a perfect time to attack.. Who where why and how are big questions in this regard though. Caemlyn clearly was one.. And I'm actually hoping other cities get attacked it will make things more interesting.

1Powerslave
01-21-2011, 09:53 PM
I wouldn't doubt it. It's a perfect time to attack.. Who where why and how are big questions in this regard though. Caemlyn clearly was one.. And I'm actually hoping other cities get attacked it will make things more interesting.
Definately. The Shadow need to have some huge scale successes in their war effort before the Light can win. At least, that is what I want to happen. And I think we need to see that sort of thing to chime with RJ's "the Light's only chance is win by knockout in last round" analogy.

Juan
01-21-2011, 10:03 PM
If it DOESN'T happen I'll be very upset. That's part of why I love reading about the War of Power on the BWB.. The Shadow was winning and winning. And the Light pulled it off at the end. That's epic right there.

Weird Harold
01-22-2011, 02:47 AM
I wasn't aware they kept their explosives. I figured the explosives they had were Aludra's..
@Jonai
Gates are pretty hard to break through.. I think you're underestimating them.

Grenadiers without grenades are pretty useless. Aludra designed and made them, but she doesn't need to be present when they're used. The Band should have a ready supply of grenades or the materials to assemble them somewhere in or close to their encampment.

As for the toughness of gates, they likely are pretty tough against battering rams and other pre-gunpowder breaching techniques. That doesn't mean much against a gunpowder charge; especially against directed charge, like a Petard:

A petard was a small bomb used to blow up gates and walls when breaching fortifications. The term has a French origin and dates back to the sixteenth century. In a typical implementation, it was commonly either a conical or rectangular metal object containing 5 or 6 pounds of gunpowder, activated with a slow match used as a fuse

The Band may not be familiar enough with explosives to design a petard from scratch, but I would be extremely surprised if both Aludra and Mat hadn't given some thought to breaching a gate or wall with explosives.

The Immortal One
01-22-2011, 03:26 AM
I don't really think Trollocs are the kind to hold and defend the gates and walls. Talamnes might be able to send two or three men over the walls with ropes to open the gates from the inside.

I think, without stong encouragement, they would just roam around killing - and even with encouragement they're probably more likely to be trying to enter the Inner City and the Palace than hold the Outer walls.

Besides if Talamanes is lucky enough that the Waygate is in the north of the city he might be able to simply march in one of the south gates without hinderance.

Also, the gates would be one area of the city which would still have guards - perhaps only militia - even with Elayne having taken most of the army with her. Perhaps the gates could hold just long enough that the Band could enter the city.


Also, you might want to remember that as well as the Band there were many other mercenary groups camped around Caemlyn - within a few leagues - who are probably close enough to see the fires.

subwoofer
01-22-2011, 08:14 AM
If it DOESN'T happen I'll be very upset. That's part of why I love reading about the War of Power on the BWB.. The Shadow was winning and winning. And the Light pulled it off at the end. That's epic right there.

But the Shadow is winning and winning. Lookit the Towers being overrun in the Borderlands at the beginning of ToM. Year over year the Blight has been spreading and encroaching on other lands. The DO diddled with the weather for a time. Food spoiling. Lan's ex-kingdom is a prime example. Rand is a walking example of the many wounds the Shadow inflicts. So a few thousand Trollocs die. So a few Foresaken bite it. The DO doesn't care about that. Spreading death and hurt and chaos is the master plan. Through the whole series there have been examples of what the Shadow has done, now is the time of marshaling of forces to meet it and if things do not start lining up soon for team light, the next book is gonna be long long long.

1Powerslave
01-22-2011, 10:45 AM
But the Shadow is winning and winning. Lookit the Towers being overrun in the Borderlands at the beginning of ToM. Year over year the Blight has been spreading and encroaching on other lands. The DO diddled with the weather for a time. Food spoiling. Lan's ex-kingdom is a prime example. Rand is a walking example of the many wounds the Shadow inflicts. So a few thousand Trollocs die. So a few Foresaken bite it. The DO doesn't care about that. Spreading death and hurt and chaos is the master plan. Through the whole series there have been examples of what the Shadow has done, now is the time of marshaling of forces to meet it and if things do not start lining up soon for team light, the next book is gonna be long long long.
What has been done so far is not enough for me. Like Juan I love the desperation and terrible defeats the Light suffered in the War of Power. The things that happened there, and the scale, cities with people leveled, gave me icy shivers. The world now is smaller than in the AoL but to get the same effect one or several of the major cities must suffer a dreadful fate and huge portions of Randland need to be overrun. And that has not happened yet. I need more information than hints that some border forts have been overrun. I need proof and on screen eyewitness accounts. :)

Killing off a few major characters would help establish that desperate feel, but I doubt RJ will ever kill off main characters.

At the same time I do find it frustrating that the Light is STILL so unorganized and unprepared. They've had plenty of time do prepare after all. The Shadow attacking and winning because the Light is unprepared is not something I'd like. I want them to clash when both are at their peak of power. This is also partly why I am so frustrated with the Seanchan.

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2011, 10:56 AM
But the diplomatic mess with the Seanchan (and a lot of the others, for that matter) is directly attributable to the Shadow. If you accept the claims of Ishamael, at least, that suggest he'd planted the corruption in the Seanchan prophecies.

Enigma
01-22-2011, 10:59 AM
At the same time I do find it frustrating that the Light is STILL so unorganized and unprepared. They've had plenty of time do prepare after all. The Shadow attacking and winning because the Light is unprepared is not something I'd like. I want them to clash when both are at their peak of power. This is also partly why I am so frustrated with the Seanchan.

It might be worth noting that the forces of the light are a bit more organised that people thing all be in by accident or the pattern. Thanks to Egwene possibly/probably manipulated by Rand most of the armies of the light are gathered in one place. not all the soldiers are there but most of them are. The Borderland forces will be joining up shortly.

Meanwhile in the south Fortuna has orderd that every single damane under her command be gathered to attack Tar Valon. The important think is that they are being gathered in one place. Their target might be Tar Valon right now but if an accommodation is reached with the Seanchan fresh targets are only a gateway away for both the Seanchan and the forces near the blight.

1Powerslave
01-22-2011, 11:00 AM
If it DOESN'T happen I'll be very upset. That's part of why I love reading about the War of Power on the BWB.. The Shadow was winning and winning. And the Light pulled it off at the end. That's epic right there.Try listening to Pruit Igoe by Philip Glass while reading about the War of Power and the Strike at Shayol Ghul. I found that it hightens the mood.

1Powerslave
01-22-2011, 11:13 AM
@Gonzo and @Enigma. True and true. The Shadow has had huge successes such as the Seanchan culture, Rand's weakend state etc. But those are unseen daggers, they've yet to really irreversibly hurt the Light. Like killing enormous amounts of the population, gaining actual control over territories etc. Which is why I hope to see that in the final book.
And I guess it is good for the suspense that the organisation and such is not too neat.

Juan
01-22-2011, 11:32 AM
@WH
I know what petards are. But I'm not sure the Band has access to them or any other form of gunpowder/grenade like technology. Aludra's very secretive about her stuff. Just like the Guild was with fireworks. That's why you never really saw what was in them. So I doubt she just left them gunpowder.. And I doubt she could've actually build weapons using gunpowder because she didn't exactly have many resources.

@Powerslave
I'm totally going to try that in the near future and let you know my experience. Thanks for the suggestion.

And yes. I want more large scale battles, decimations, etc. The Light has to be losing hope in order for it to be really epic and cool.

Mam A'Lemur
01-22-2011, 12:57 PM
@Juan
You should listen to this http://www.facebook.com/pages/Villisca/116482241746482?v=app_178091127385 when reading "A Storm of Light" or any battle with the trollocs.
Okay. So that's a shameless promo for a great local band, but still. They're pretty awesome. Especially 'cause the vocalist is my little boy. :)

The Immortal One
01-22-2011, 01:44 PM
I need more information than hints that some border forts have been overrun.

It's not exactly 'onscreen', but hasn't the Aes Sedai and Egwene recently received reports that at least two of the Border nations have been almost totally overrun (Arafel and Kandor?)? And it's only due to Rand's personal invervention that Saldaea isn't totally overrun too.

And even if the Band can oust the Trollocs Caemlyn will likely end at least half in ruin; with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of civilians dead (the city was bulging with refugees last we heard).

1Powerslave
01-22-2011, 03:57 PM
It's not exactly 'onscreen', but hasn't the Aes Sedai and Egwene recently received reports that at least two of the Border nations have been almost totally overrun (Arafel and Kandor?)? And it's only due to Rand's personal invervention that Saldaea isn't totally overrun too.

And even if the Band can oust the Trollocs Caemlyn will likely end at least half in ruin; with thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of civilians dead (the city was bulging with refugees last we heard).
True, there is the fight at the gates of Maradon (and beyond). The Light won there though. The reports on Egwene's desk (that she decided not to do anything about) hasn't really happened yet as I count it. Same with Caemlyn of course. As I said if that doesn't happen I will be disappointed. But yeah, there is potential.

Weird Harold
01-22-2011, 04:05 PM
@WH
I know what petards are. But I'm not sure the Band has access to them or any other form of gunpowder/grenade like technology. Aludra's very secretive about her stuff.

Egeanin was there, holding a nightflower shell upright for Aludra to work on. Aludra's full-lipped face frowned in concentration as she tapped lightly on the shell. ...

Aludra looked up from her work, tucking a stray lock of hair behind her ear. She noted Mat, then looked back to her nightflower and began tapping with the hammer again. Bloody ashes! Seeing that reminded him why he visited Aludra so infrequently. The checkpoint was bad enough, but did the woman have to pound on something explosive with a hammer? Had she no sense at all? The entire lot of Illuminators were that way, though. Short a few foals of a full herd, as Mat's father might say.

Aludra's workspace is guarded and separate as much for safety from imprudent ineterruptions as for secrecy. Egainin has become a de facto Illuminator-in-training, privy to the materials list and Dragon designs and Mat has the materials list and the dragon design specs. She's is not nearly as secretive as the defunct Illuminators' Guild was. Her current mode is more oriented to keeping her secrets from prospective enemies than from those she needs to man her dragons and dragon's eggs.


More importantly, she has been continuously building and stockpiling "dragon's eggs" and "nightflowers." That stockpile is somewhere, and the logical safe place for it is under the guard of the Band's grenadiers because the grenadiers are useless without grenades.

Enigma
01-23-2011, 10:26 AM
Would your average Trollock or even fade know what to do with the Dragons? Would they even know what they are for? They have never been used in the field and to a 17th Century level tech society without access to gunpowder they are not immediatly obvious what they are for.

I would have thought that the biggest danger is the trollocks accidentally blowing themselves and the grenades/fireworks up and taking a large part of the city with them.

subwoofer
01-23-2011, 11:36 AM
What has been done so far is not enough for me. Like Juan I love the desperation and terrible defeats the Light suffered in the War of Power. The things that happened there, and the scale, cities with people leveled, gave me icy shivers. The world now is smaller than in the AoL but to get the same effect one or several of the major cities must suffer a dreadful fate and huge portions of Randland need to be overrun. And that has not happened yet. I need more information than hints that some border forts have been overrun. I need proof and on screen eyewitness accounts. :)

Killing off a few major characters would help establish that desperate feel, but I doubt RJ will ever kill off main characters.

At the same time I do find it frustrating that the Light is STILL so unorganized and unprepared. They've had plenty of time do prepare after all. The Shadow attacking and winning because the Light is unprepared is not something I'd like. I want them to clash when both are at their peak of power. This is also partly why I am so frustrated with the Seanchan.

Awww shucks, my last post timed out so I am doing this from memory.

I woulda posted yesterday but I am dealing with a newborn so my free time is very limited.

Hmmmmm. Big battles. Well then, I don't think we are going to see Gondor happening over here with tall odds. Even when Rodel was getting overrun reinforcements were Gatewayed in and Rand did a solo performance of killing a horde of Trollocs.

I also don't think we are going to have a GRRM series where all the main protagonists die and then what? OTOH Tolkien did kill off Boromir in book 1 and it went well from then on. And RJ did pull a Gandalf with Moiraine.

Caemlyn getting toasted. Not feeling that. Some of it will be destroyed of course, but that is going to be the excuse for the Ogier coming forth and rebuilding a la Loial. From book 1 we hear about how beautiful the city is, I don't think all will be lost there, especially not with Mat's Dragons needing a test run and all these likely targets- read Trollocs- conveniently placed in the way.

Folks dying. Well, the Aiel have been set up as fodder. We hear about them being the People of the Dragon and going wherever Rand sends them. They are all very skilled warriors, but they have such vast numbers. I think Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean will have the Aiel decimating by this war.

Bashere should also die, unfortunately, I like the guy. But his daughter and Perrin have to merge Saldea with Manetheran so they can rule both kingdoms so...

And Lan. The guy is facing 100 to 1 odds. Methinks Lan's riding to his doom is on the verge of happening.

I just have a hard time dealing with desperate odds in Randland. The scale of the armies and people are vast. Rand has several hundred thousand spears of Aiel following him. Egwene's armies merged after the rift in the Tower was mended so that is another 100 000+ troops. Mat has a big army. The Bordelanders have such sizable forces that they spared 200 000 troops to go off to test the Dragon and still leave enough to protect their borders short of a confrontation like the Trolloc Wars. Perrin has 100 000 people following him. The numbers are going to be like a million people fighting a few million Trollocs.

It is hard to feel desperation with those kind of numbers and in a way I think RJ did that on purpose. The Last Battle isn't going to be about that. In the first book Rand was in the clouds and the Sheinarans ebbed and flowed as Rand ebbed and flowed. Same when Mat sounded the Horn. The Heros won or lost ground depending on Rand. During Rand's rescue things got more gritty but Rand was mostly taken out of that fight. I feel that the Last Battle will not be fought by force of numbers but more on another plane with Rand vs. the DO, Perrin fighting it TAR and Mat actually doing the war with the ground troops.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2011, 12:09 PM
Note: the Shadow is going to be a lot more aggressive than it was during the Trolloc Wars.

First, now they actually have the DO himself in charge, lending strength, rather than a somewhat shadowy Ishamael.
Second, they're not going to send all that many Trollocs and such into Shara and the Waste this time. Previous time, they tried to depopulate those too, now they can simply postpone that until after the Last Battle. Assuming that Shara won't serve the Shadow, even.
Third, they've known this was coming for decades, and they actually prepared for it. Which is not what the Light did, remember?
Fourth, unlike they did in the Trolloc Wars, they now use the Ways and Portal Stones. That's gonna screw up a lot of planning by the Light, as no borders are safe anymore.

Weird Harold
01-23-2011, 12:10 PM
Would your average Trollock or even fade know what to do with the Dragons? Would they even know what they are for? They have never been used in the field and to a 17th Century level tech society without access to gunpowder they are not immediatly obvious what they are for.

I would have thought that the biggest danger is the trollocks accidentally blowing themselves and the grenades/fireworks up and taking a large part of the city with them.
The first Dragon was tested from a tower on the city wall. The training of the Band as artilerists was done outside of town where there was little or no way to restrict who could observe.

Trollocs might not be able to figure out how to use dragons, but they're easily bright enough to hunt for them and destroy them -- tossing a torch into the powder storage might kill off a few trollocs, but who besides the trollocs immediately involved would care?

The plan for an attack on Caemlyn predates the construction of the first Dragon, but there's no reason that the dragons couldn't be made a target at the last minute if a DF spy reported their existance to someone bright enough to recognise the potential -- like maybe Demandred?

Juan
01-23-2011, 06:15 PM
@Mam
hahaha nice. That was pretty cool. I play in a band myself. :)

@the thread
I understand that the main battle is going to be between Rand and the DO/Moridin or whatever.

Everything else will be more like background stuff. However it happens though, I want a feel of desperation on the Light's part. So far, the Light seems to have it fairly easy. Except for the food-spoilage thing going on.

Enigma
01-24-2011, 09:30 AM
I can sympathise Juan I would have loved to read a series set during the AoL showing the war of power and the light's desperate fight for survival. Perhaps the promised Encyclopedia will give us more info on this.

Unfortunatly and while I hope I'm wrong I think that the main struggle here in the last book is going to be a lot more focused on people DO v Rand
Perrin v slayer etc. Yes there will be fighting and dying but I get the feeling that a lot of that will be more background i.e. Mat or Egwene or someone getting reports of fighting in the streets of Cairhien but the Band holding out etc.

Given the numbers of military forces knocking around one would need a whole book to do justice to them alone and what they were doing leaving very little for such minor matters like Rand/everyone & Fortuna/Seanchan putting aside their differences, The Black Tower getting sorted, Mat blowing the Horn of Valere, Rand having some quality time with Moridin and then the Dark One etc.

Juan
01-24-2011, 02:04 PM
Yeah definitely. Which is why I'm working on writing a book that's inspired by a few different stories, but one of its main inspirations is the Age of Legends concept RJ has. So my story is set in that sort of era. As to everything else, when I finish the book, RAFO. ;)

knightofround
01-25-2011, 02:20 PM
Hm pretty much everyone assumes that it's Trollocs attacking Caemlyn because of Mats letter. But wouldn't it be interesting if it were the Seanchan instead? That would give Mat enough time to get back to Caemlyn before the shadow army mentioned in Verins note gets there. If the shadow attack occurs during the Seanchan attack, that would also be a good opportunity to fulfill Egwene's Seanchan rescue dream telling.

I also find it odd that Verin didn't tell Egwene about the invasion as a backup before dying. Perhaps she's been a dreamer herself all along, and knew it wouldn't help?

Juan
01-25-2011, 06:44 PM
Because Verin said the Shadow planned on attacking Caemlyn.

And the Seanchan have no real reason to attack Caemlyn as of yet. Their eyes are on Tar Valon.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2011, 04:30 AM
Verin wasn't the only one. The BA members who captured Elayne in ToM (again) also said that an attack was coming.

New Futurist Man
02-11-2011, 11:30 AM
Caemlyn now under such heavy assault by the Shadow, does breathe fresh life into the Demandred = Charlz Guybon theory (not that I'm in any way convinced myself).

But consider: Demandred declaring his forces were, mobilised and ready to move, or however he put it, is consistent with 1) the multitude of mercenaries encamped outside Caemlyn - who would be a darkfriend army; and 2) the force of Trollocs arriving via the Ways; with 3) Demandred already well-placed within the city, able to quickly snuff out any resistance after throwing of his Guybon-alias.

Though why assault Caemlyn? Wasting one of the Shadow's best generals in holding it? It holds no strategic importance. Better to strike at Tar Valon, Tear or, better yet, Illian thus weakening the Dragon's forces for a possible attack by the Seanchan.

Heinz
02-11-2011, 01:31 PM
Caemlyn now under such heavy assault by the Shadow, does breathe fresh life into the Demandred = Charlz Guybon theory (not that I'm in any way convinced myself).

Impossible, since a quote from RJ said that Demandred has only been Demandred. I believe that was current as of Knife of Dreams, and iirc it was re-iterated by Brandon.

That isn't to say that Demandred doesn't have spies in Caemlyn from wherever he is plotting, and so was waiting for his moment and is taking it now. Just that it isn't from the persona of Guybon.

I would be a little sad if Caemlyn was destroyed, though I'm with others that I don't think it will be completely lost. Perhaps many parts burned, probably the New City.

I do feel that it would be a good stage for Mat to come in. How grateful would Elayne have to be to him then? But I don't really think it will happen. Rather, I think Grady will bring him to the FoM, and I suspect no help is coming from there. At least not anytime soon.

A wild card that I'm not sure would play in or not would be the Ashaman with a Talent for Gateways. But I can't see how he'd know about Caemlyn, and care enough over issues at the Black Tower to Travel and find reinforcements. And to do it through the Dreamspike.

bgrishinko
02-11-2011, 02:00 PM
Impossible, since a quote from RJ said that Demandred has only been Demandred. I believe that was current as of Knife of Dreams, and iirc it was re-iterated by Brandon.

Well, sortof, Sanderson confirmed that we hadn't seen his on screen persona as of the end of CoT.



Q: Has Demandred's alter ego been seen since Crossroads of Twilight?

Brandon: That is a good question, but I'm not going to answer it.

Samadai: Has Demandred's alter ego been mentioned in the books but not seen?

Brandon: That is a very well thought out question... There have been too few characters introduced in the last few books for me to answer that.

So the Guybon theory could still hold water. I prefer the King of Murandy theory myself and/or shadowspawn hoard leader.

In any case, Caemlyn does hold the Arthurian importance to show that it will be an important battle. There are plenty of resources comparing it to the Battle of Camlann (which is where Arthur died, by the way).

I think it probable that Rand will jump back here to save the city and have one of his two deaths here... that's just me though.

Terez
02-11-2011, 06:09 PM
Actually, TGS is the only book in which Demandred's alter ego (assuming he has one) might have possibly been seen on screen (which is far from certain).

jana
02-12-2011, 12:06 AM
Impossible, since a quote from RJ said that Demandred has only been Demandred.

Misquotes are annoying. He said we hadn't seen him onscreen. Ginormous difference.

subwoofer
02-13-2011, 09:18 AM
Misquotes are annoying.

Yeah, when I get bit by one I tend to swell up and it takes days for the itch to go away;)

subwoofer
02-13-2011, 09:25 AM
I can sympathise Juan I would have loved to read a series set during the AoL showing the war of power and the light's desperate fight for survival. Perhaps the promised Encyclopedia will give us more info on this.

Unfortunatly and while I hope I'm wrong I think that the main struggle here in the last book is going to be a lot more focused on people DO v Rand
Perrin v slayer etc. Yes there will be fighting and dying but I get the feeling that a lot of that will be more background i.e. Mat or Egwene or someone getting reports of fighting in the streets of Cairhien but the Band holding out etc.

Given the numbers of military forces knocking around one would need a whole book to do justice to them alone and what they were doing leaving very little for such minor matters like Rand/everyone & Fortuna/Seanchan putting aside their differences, The Black Tower getting sorted, Mat blowing the Horn of Valere, Rand having some quality time with Moridin and then the Dark One etc.

Exactly! At the end of ToM Brandon did cover a lot of ground, but it took a fair bit of chaotic jumping around in each chapter. The price for covering as much as Brandon did was the flow of the story, it was very exciting to read, but disjointed in terms of how each section went. RJ used to string a few chapters together before he changed the pace. Now it feels like a melee.

In the final book I am thinking, geeze, we have this huge battle, Mat and Tuon, Perrin, Egwene, Lan out in the thick of things, Moiraine, Bryne... oh yeah, the Dragon has a bunch of loose threads to tie up. How the heck is all that going to fit in one book? Rand hasn't even played footsie with Aviendha yet.

The Angry Druid
02-14-2011, 07:46 PM
Unless the Dreamspike is extended over the rest of Caemlyn (if this is even possible), this attack shouldn't present too much of a problem.

All that has to happen is someone at the palace (Kin) open a Gateway to the Fields of Merrilor, gets to Elayne, and says, "I know you guys have the big meeting planned for tomorrow, but Caemlyn is under siege and the New City is burning right now. So do you think some of huge army of the channelers and all troops located here could come back and help us deal with them, like, right now?"

They jump back to the palace/Inner City and start kicking ass.

Still have to worry about Taim and DF/turned Asha'man. But I suspect that number is still fairly small. Or at most half of everyone left at the BT.

GonzoTheGreat
02-15-2011, 04:18 AM
Yes, but most of the Kin will be at the Field of Merrilor. The one (or perhaps ones) left behind on Gateway Duty will be obvious targets for assassination. And after they have had their throats slit, they are not too likely to be active enough to be of much use to the Light.

Terez
02-15-2011, 04:30 AM
Unless the Dreamspike is extended over the rest of Caemlyn (if this is even possible), this attack shouldn't present too much of a problem.
It's not incredibly clear. The radius of Perrin's dreamspike was several miles - he said it would take 'several hours' of walking to get to the center from the edge, and average walk speed is 3-4 miles per hour. But I don't know that it is quite far enough to include Caemlyn, not that Taim would have tried before the day of the attack, since he is trying to keep a relatively low profile. It may be, but I don't think we know exactly how far from Caemlyn the Black Tower is. Elayne says a 'few miles', but Rand once Traveled to an area between the city and the Black Tower and thought that it was a few miles to either.

It may be that the area of the dreamspike is adjustable.

FelixPax
02-15-2011, 06:18 AM
Yes, but most of the Kin will be at the Field of Merrilor.

Highly Doubtful, 50% or more of the Kin will be there.

Why?

The Kin were spread across the Westlands formally, from Tear to Illian to Tarabon to the Borderlands et la.

Where did the Kin in Altara, Tarabon, Amadicia head for? Caemlyn? Salidar Aes Sedai Army? Or elsewhere?

A good chunk of Kin its heavily hinted did end up joining the Salidar Aes Sedai Army to become "Novices". It is those "Older Novices" who already knew Nynaeve's form of healing.

GonzoTheGreat
02-15-2011, 06:20 AM
But none of the Kin who are not in Caemlyn are relevant for this, are they?
The only ones that could sound the alarm in regard to the attack on Caemlyn are those who actually are there. And they will most likely accompany Elayne on her trip to talk to Rand.