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ScoundrelTheToy
01-16-2011, 11:12 PM
Start on page 536 - 542 (paperback) of CoT - Egwene PoV - A Chat With Suian It's too long to post in it's entirety, but the allusion begins with the words: Concentrating on the business at hand, she picked up the next sheet.

Egwene and Matrim's conversation begins with, "At least they don't suggest sending anyone to Caemlyn." Egwene blinked, the pain behind her eyes sharpened by following the tight letters.

The 'tight letters' are the ta'veren.


This conversation is really in this context:

1: AMOL foreshadowing - seems to be 100% allusion and what you think you're reading isn't right.

2: Luck = Matrim, substitute Suian for Matrim. This is the allusion. She's not talking with Suian, but the Prince of the Ravens, the intermediary of dumping those Oaths!


She (Matrim) leaned forward, carefully balancing herslf this time when the uneven legs made her stool lurch.

Lol. Oh come on, this just sounds cruel. Don't pick on Matrim about his eye!

The allusion ends with:
Egwene's head came up as she read to the bottom of the page, and she hurriedly set that page down and picked up the next.

Daekyras
01-17-2011, 08:31 AM
Is........IT.........legal where you live?

ScoundrelTheToy
01-17-2011, 01:12 PM
Is........IT.........legal where you live?

Lol, I was stoned when I read this. So perhaps that's it. Although I'm sober now and stand by the name switch. It's a totally wierd passage and exchange between them. The mannerisms of "Suian" is not hers, but those of Matrim.

I just think Robert Jordan hid allusion into his later books to give us reference points once the story was finished. Why do you think he always said RAFO? Sometimes because he hadn't answered the question yet and you need to continue to read. Other times though, RAFO is saying, "go back and listen to the story again, I put it there!" It's a testament to his writing skills imo.

metaphor
01-17-2011, 09:30 PM
I'm confused.

jana
01-17-2011, 09:45 PM
I'm more baffled now than I would be reading all of Felix's posts at the same time.

Terez
01-17-2011, 09:51 PM
Lol, I was stoned when I read this. So perhaps that's it.
That's no excuse.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-18-2011, 10:21 AM
I didn't mean it to be one. Robert Jordan used our assumptions against us. Case in point is Matrim's first trip to the Eelfinn and his third request. I didn't catch it and nobody else did, but now that we know it seems so obvious right? He asked for a way out and it was given to him.

It's the same thing with his second trip to the Eelfinn in TOM. We assume that Matrim's bargain is the release of Moiraine and a way out of the TOG. It is part of the bargain, but only pertaining to "We take her. We get out". We assume that Matrim is bargaining his way out of the TOG when all he says is, "way out restored as part of the bargain". What bargain and what way out? He never says a way out of the TOG. This is what's assumed by the reader when in reality the "way out" is open to interpetation by that of the Eelfinn. Indeed, the Eelfinn already gave Matrim a "way out of the TOG" via his Ashanderi. So why presume to think he's asking for another way out of the TOG when the Eelfinn already know this?

The answer from the Eelfinn in how they fulfill their side of the bargain would be reflected in their actions to fulfill this. How did they fulfill this bargain this time around with the evidence we were presented with? I never saw Matrim, Thom and Noal walk a straight path back to where they entered and leave like the reader assumes that's what he's asking for. The Aelfinn attacked Matrim before they could walk out scotch free. Therefore, we can't know for sure if the "way out of TOG" was the Eelfinn's interpertation of what Matrim was bargaining for. What Matrim was bargaining for is thus left in Robert Jordan's mind of what the Eelfinn presume to think he's asking for. What is the saying, fool me once...fool me twice...We were fooled the first go around with the Eelfinn. So why do we presume to think we aren't going to be fooled again? It's no wonder the saying became an idiom.

Did you ever stop to think, even knowing you were fooled the first time, that you would be fooled again? I'm not neccassarily saying we were fooled, just that the possibility exist. If you are aware that the possibility exist, as proven by the first go around with the Eelfinn, it would be foolish to presume it's not going to happen again. Just idle thoughts to chew on.

Lastly, perhaps I'm just blowing hot air and I'm the only one who never realized it, but this logic also applies to the statement, RAFO. We presume that means we can't know now. The statement is an ambiguous and misleading one. Misleading because you think it means keep reading the story further to find out. That's only part of it. The other side of the statement could also be interperted quite simply as read the story and find it. I'm not saying where. I'm just saying read the story and find out if your questions are answered or not.

Is my logic flawed?

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2011, 11:48 AM
I didn't mean it to be one. Robert Jordan used our assumptions against us. Case in point is Matrim's first trip to the Eelfinn and his third request. I didn't catch it and nobody else did, but now that we know it seems so obvious right? He asked for a way out and it was given to him.Well, it's not quite entirely true that no one figured it out.
I have argued in the past that his ashanderei was given him as "way to get out". True, I interpreted the getting out with it as being hanged from it in such a way that Rand could easily get him down in time (rather than having him from a branch and letting him die), so I did miss a detail. A detail which, I'm sure Terez is itching to point out, is fairly important.

I had correctly linked it to his third request, which is what counts.

Terez
01-18-2011, 03:01 PM
Now if only you could find a link to that, we would be very impressed. Hard to do when your posts all show up as having been posted by the great and prolific Unregistered(d), but this is the price one pays for taking pride in one's lurker status.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2011, 04:22 AM
Actually, Unregistered(d) is Be'lazamon, as this post shows (http://theoryland.yuku.com/sreply/95490/To-Marry-in-the-Old-Tongue-what-it-means-today). :p

More on topic is this post (http://theoryland.yuku.com/sreply/97660/question-about-mat-and-the-fox-people), which probably isn't one of mine. It does mention the idea that the ashanderei would be the key to getting into the ToG, which is quite close to what it turned out to be, I would say. A later post by Cauthon suggests that it was Insane Ducky who came up with this speculation.

Then there's this post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69990&postcount=100), where you accuse me having speculated on this subject before. Not really quite what I was looking for, yet, but sort of an indication that I might be on the right track. Or on a track, at least.

I haven't (yet) managed to find what I was looking for, though.

alleluia_cone
01-19-2011, 01:48 PM
I'm more baffled now than I would be reading all of Felix's posts at the same time.

There is no need to exaggerate.

Terez
01-19-2011, 02:40 PM
I haven't (yet) managed to find what I was looking for, though.
You could have worded that more eloquently (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1XXs7e7ac).

Goldie
01-19-2011, 03:21 PM
*with overly dramatic whining*
Why Terez why? Why Bono?
:D

Crispin's Crispian
01-19-2011, 03:38 PM
Did you ever stop to think, even knowing you were fooled the first time, that you would be fooled again? I'm not neccassarily saying we were fooled, just that the possibility exist. If you are aware that the possibility exist, as proven by the first go around with the Eelfinn, it would be foolish to presume it's not going to happen again. Just idle thoughts to chew on.
Makes sense to think of it this way, but it might help your case to have some concrete ideas about what it means. To what else do you think "a way out" could be referring?

Lastly, perhaps I'm just blowing hot air and I'm the only one who never realized it, but this logic also applies to the statement, RAFO. We presume that means we can't know now. The statement is an ambiguous and misleading one. Misleading because you think it means keep reading the story further to find out. That's only part of it. The other side of the statement could also be interperted quite simply as read the story and find it. I'm not saying where. I'm just saying read the story and find out if your questions are answered or not.
No, your logic isn't flawed, but RJ did clarify that at one point. I don't have the quote handy, but he said that RAFO didn't always mean you had to wait for information. It also meant that you could figure out the answer if you looked hard enough. He just never clarified which times he meant which connotation.

Terez
01-19-2011, 03:46 PM
It's in the RAFO category (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_83dkptgddr&revision=_latest) of the database, which does not attempt to catalog all questions that were RAFO'd but rather catalogs comments on the nature of RAFO. And now, MAFO.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-19-2011, 04:16 PM
Makes sense to think of it this way, but it might help your case to have some concrete ideas about what it means. To what else do you think "a way out" could be referring?

A way out of this struggle against the Dark One.


People already think I'm off my rocker so I hesistate to even tell what I think what Matrim was bargaining for. Ultimately though, I think Matrim was bargaining for Light vs. Dark One. When Robert Jordan was playing us for fools he let us think the scene was exactly as we presumed it would be. All the while he's really talking about something else. This bargain was what made Matrim the 'center of all'. To fulfill their side of the bargain, the Eelfinn had to increase his ta'verness or some such. When the Eelfinn ripped his eye out, it says something along of the lines of, "It was as if the creature had pressed its deceitful claws into his mind and soul."

It's the same with Moiraine. They increased her power through the angreal, but they also used it to their advantage as well and fed off it. It seems the Eelfinn did the same thing to Matrim. Increased his ta'veren power to be able to fulfill the bargain and they fed off it and it made them so drunk they were collapsing and holding onto pillars to support themself. I just think they increased his ta'verness and he became the center of all due to it.

We assume the world itself depended on this bargain because of Moiraine. That is true, but what if it depended on the fate of the world for other reasons as well? Enjoy the crackpot theory. It can be somewhat right, but it could be just as simple as what it appears to be on the surface. The first trip through and being fooled makes me very wary to be believe the latter though.

Crispin's Crispian
01-19-2011, 07:00 PM
A way out of this struggle against the Dark One.


People already think I'm off my rocker so I hesistate to even tell what I think what Matrim was bargaining for. Ultimately though, I think Matrim was bargaining for Light vs. Dark One. When Robert Jordan was playing us for fools he let us think the scene was exactly as we presumed it would be. All the while he's really talking about something else. This bargain was what made Matrim the 'center of all'. To fulfill their side of the bargain, the Eelfinn had to increase his ta'verness or some such. When the Eelfinn ripped his eye out, it says something along of the lines of, "It was as if the creature had pressed its deceitful claws into his mind and soul."

It's the same with Moiraine. They increased her power through the angreal, but they also used it to their advantage as well and fed off it. It seems the Eelfinn did the same thing to Matrim. Increased his ta'veren power to be able to fulfill the bargain and they fed off it and it made them so drunk they were collapsing and holding onto pillars to support themself. I just think they increased his ta'verness and he became the center of all due to it.

We assume the world itself depended on this bargain because of Moiraine. That is true, but what if it depended on the fate of the world for other reasons as well? Enjoy the crackpot theory. It can be somewhat right, but it could be just as simple as what it appears to be on the surface. The first trip through and being fooled makes me very wary to be believe the latter though.

Well, we don't generally condone the use of rockers here. Only a few of us would stay on. ;)

Actually, I rather like what you're saying. To me, Moiraine never adequately satisfied the "half the light of the world to save the world" phrase. I mean, sure, she might be critical to Rand, but I'm expecting a more direct result. This could be it.

My problem with the theory is similar to my problem with Moiraine, though--the verbiage is weak. You latched on to one phrase, "a way out," but that's very vague and indirect to be such a huge red herring.

Or maybe not... Anyway, I like it.

Crispin's Crispian
01-19-2011, 07:02 PM
It's in the RAFO category (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_83dkptgddr&revision=_latest) of the database, which does not attempt to catalog all questions that were RAFO'd but rather catalogs comments on the nature of RAFO. And now, MAFO.

Now why the hell would you put that in the RAFO category?

And who knew there was a RAFO category anyway? ;)

Terez
01-19-2011, 08:42 PM
Well, now you know. And knowing is half...

Fie
01-20-2011, 03:38 AM
It's the same thing with his second trip to the Eelfinn in TOM. We assume that Matrim's bargain is the release of Moiraine and a way out of the TOG. It is part of the bargain, but only pertaining to "We take her. We get out". We assume that Matrim is bargaining his way out of the TOG when all he says is, "way out restored as part of the bargain". What bargain and what way out? He never says a way out of the TOG. This is what's assumed by the reader when in reality the "way out" is open to interpetation by that of the Eelfinn. Indeed, the Eelfinn already gave Matrim a "way out of the TOG" via his Ashanderi. So why presume to think he's asking for another way out of the TOG when the Eelfinn already know this?

But you say hes not asking for ANOTHER way out, but for the way out RESTORED... ?

As to Moiraine and save the world etc.: I do think there will be a very direct impact, in fact, because, I mean, sure she was/is critical to Rand, but, sorry Moiraine, hes done quite well without her in the last time. My guess is, her "direct impact" might have to do with Lanfear. I have a more loony theory, though, but I will refrain from posting it, at least until I will have shaped, bent and distorted everything else around it to fit in :)