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Tamyrlin
01-19-2011, 01:11 AM
There is one small TofM spoiler in this post.

So, during a recent signing I was talking through this Chapter with Brandon between his book signings. I was talking about the nature of dreams, T'A'R and the GOI and what it is we are seeing there. Are Rand's dreams being manipulated? Has he been brought into Ishy's dream? Certainly, he is not in T'A'R, so what kind of dream is this? We know he isn't a Dreamer, so it being a prophetic dream is out.

Thoughts? This is now one of my favorite chapters of the series and I will pontificate tomorrow about what answers we have been given by RJ/Others help narrow down the possibilities.

Also, along with this Brandon pretty much said that at least one of the Forsaken is/was a Dreamer. Ishy for sure? Or is he a Dreamwalker? It seems clear Dreamwalkers can use the GOI.

Anyway, don't have much time to discuss it right at this moment, but need to mention it.

Terez
01-19-2011, 01:27 AM
I still say Aran'gar is evidence that any channeler can be taught to use the GOI. She obviously has no Talent for it. In that sense it must be like Healing. Some people suck at it, but anyone can Heal a bruise.

If ch. 9 is not a prophetic dream, then it has to be completely fabricated by Ishamael, which would mean that Ishamael can control his dreams. Or maybe it means that Rand and Ishamael were linked even back then, and Ishamael was the Dreamer. But Ishamael was definitely trying to discourage Rand from going to Tar Valon, and almost certainly trying to lead him to the Eye. To what purpose? To use it up early when in reality he would need it later? The only obvious advantage in the Eye for Rand was the lack of taint. Just to try to get Rand to challenge him before he was ready?

Juan
01-19-2011, 02:22 AM
I feel like I should know what GOI means but abbreviations aren't my strong point.. what is GOI? I know I'll feel silly once I find out.

As to the dream, I'm inclined to think that it's a result of their link. However, I'm not sure how that whole link really works. For example, when Moridin claimed Rand had brought him there, Rand was surprised so it must've been done unconsciously (assuming Moridin was telling the truth). If so, does that mean this can't really be controlled and only happens randomly or unconsciously?

Terez
01-19-2011, 02:24 AM
Gap of Infinity. That place where the dreams be. Also, I suspect you are talking about a different dream entirely.

Juan
01-19-2011, 02:26 AM
Ah I knew I'd feel silly. Thanks Terez! I was simply using that other dream or whatever you'd call it to illustrate the kind of link they have. At least from the way I see it. I could be completely wrong.

Terez
01-19-2011, 02:29 AM
Yes, but most people believe (with good reason) that the link was forged via the balefire incident in Shadar Logoth, so the comment about them maybe being linked way back then was really just a throwaway, especially considering that Brandon didn't consider it for the Thom dream later on in TEOTW. He said the only options were that Rand had heard the Fisher King prophecy or that it was a Lews Therin memory.

Fie
01-19-2011, 04:43 AM
If ch. 9 is not a prophetic dream, then it has to be completely fabricated by Ishamael, which would mean that Ishamael can control his dreams. Or maybe it means that Rand and Ishamael were linked even back then, and Ishamael was the Dreamer. But Ishamael was definitely trying to discourage Rand from going to Tar Valon, and almost certainly trying to lead him to the Eye. To what purpose? To use it up early when in reality he would need it later? The only obvious advantage in the Eye for Rand was the lack of taint. Just to try to get Rand to challenge him before he was ready?
I´d think that we can rule out your first option, because of the rat-killing-affair.That sort of thing would certainly not appear in a prophetic dream (or would it?), so it would be down to your second option.
The link, well. Mabe it´s like a link before the balefire incident and the link after. (not intended it to sound like "not the beginning, but a beginning :) )Ishamael did inflict his dreams on all 3 ta´veren. Is there one point where he knows "his" ta´veren is Rand, or does he know all along and just hassles all ta´veren alike nonetheless ?

The Immortal One
01-20-2011, 11:08 PM
Are Rand's dreams being manipulated? Has he been brought into Ishy's dream? Certainly, he is not in T'A'R, so what kind of dream is this? We know he isn't a Dreamer, so it being a prophetic dream is out.

Are we certain that Rand isn't a Dreamer?

I know he has nothing like the Talent for it that Egwene has; but some of his dreams, especially in the earlier books, seem to be a little prophetic.

I'm not talking about the dreams which are obviously Ishamael-inspired, but his other 'normal' dreams. Are they simply coincidence? Or foreshadowing? Or perhaps he understands more of his situation subconciously than he wants to and the result ends up in his dreams?

And he seems to have a fair amount of control even within the Ishamael-inspired dreams. Is Ishamael simply that weak? Is this just Rand's stubborn will? Or does he have a small Talent for Dreaming?

Terez
01-20-2011, 11:18 PM
Are we certain that Rand isn't a Dreamer?
Brandon said he is 'pretty sure' Rand is not a Dreamer. He promised to look it up, but I'm thinking it's unlikely if it's not in any way relevant to the plot.

I agree that his early dreams sound prophetic. But Brandon was looking for other explanations.

Juan
01-20-2011, 11:21 PM
Yeah. I always got the impression Rand had some sort of talent in this area.

greatwolf
01-22-2011, 04:31 AM
. I was talking about the nature of dreams, T'A'R and the GOI and what it is we are seeing there. Are Rand's dreams being manipulated? Has he been brought into Ishy's dream? Certainly, he is not in T'A'R, so what kind of dream is this? We know he isn't a Dreamer, so it being a prophetic dream is out.


I can hardly see that being the case. Egwene's Dreaming has been useful for her and Tuon's superstitions have helped make her quite useful for the pattern. So it wouldn't be out of place if a taveren were able to Dream and interpret. In fact, I'd expect taveren (aol or now) to be prime candidates for this.


That isn't proof that he's a dreamer though, but then is there any proof otherwise?

Terez
01-22-2011, 12:41 PM
OMG, it lives! Kill it!

Belazamon
01-22-2011, 02:51 PM
You? No!
Fix'd.

greatwolf
01-22-2011, 03:45 PM
Thank you Terez, I knew I could count on you for a warm reception in this harmattan.

Terez
01-22-2011, 04:41 PM
Any time. Also, Brandon said he's 'pretty sure' Rand isn't a Dreamer.

Spasmodean
02-07-2011, 07:49 PM
Any time. Also, Brandon said he's 'pretty sure' Rand isn't a Dreamer.

It could be his subconscious manifesting early signs of the LTT memories.

Terez
02-07-2011, 08:35 PM
That was Brandon's idea, but quite a bit of it just isn't explained by memories.

Artur pendragon
02-20-2011, 04:19 AM
Was LTT a dreamer if so can Rand ability with the T'A'R be a effect from their joint memories(Like with Rand's channeling).

Jonai
02-21-2011, 05:45 AM
I think aran'gar's proclivities, or lack thereof can be explained by a comprehensive AoL Aes Sedai training program. they can all at least walk and manipulate TAR, all the forsaken. No special talent is needed for THAT. As to one being a dreamer, well Moggy and Lannie are dreamwalkers, and Ishy seems to be, who knows who the dreamer is though. I think Rand can have prophetic dreams without having a manifest talent for either one though. When in doubt just lay on some ta'veren deus ex machina. I think my favorite early dream was Thom going all Fisher King. Made me laugh, not sure why.

greatwolf
02-24-2011, 01:11 PM
Was LTT a dreamer if so can Rand ability with the T'A'R be a effect from their joint memories(Like with Rand's channeling).


You're permitted to put up your theory artur. ;)

I don't think we established much in the way of the differences between dreamers and dreamwalkers in earlier arguments, but Rand's case is complicated by the presence of LTT and later, the merger with Moridin.

Another thought arises, given what we've seen of the bond between the three boys and the one between Rand and Moridin, it could very well be that all three will be able to have prophetic dreams. Or that they will have abilities that they shouldn't in TAR or the GOI.