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View Full Version : It's hard to get excited about the ending when..


sheikh chilli
01-20-2011, 06:36 PM
you know that shaitan has got no hope in hell and is going to get sealed up back again.

I knew that the baddies would never win but when those outrigger novels were first mentioned then it really did confirm that the light win in the end. I guess you could say the impending dread one felt reading the earlier books has vanished and now it's just case of turning up at shayol ghul and resealing the bore and audios and goodnight.

somehow i can't feel any sort of excitement for the last book anymore which is a shame because this series has been with me since i was 17 years old and has a huge influence when it comes to my taste in books

Juan
01-20-2011, 07:21 PM
Me... I'm still excited. I want to know how it's going to end, and what's going to happen to who and how. There's so much more in my opinion to the story than just knowing the Light wins.

This is partly why I for one am extremely curious and anxious to find out about the Aiel's future. That sort of storyline with the Seanchan is a lot harder to cover up who will win.

But anyway back to the original point, this is why I'm still excited to the last book. Most stories in the world have the good guys win. Very rarely do you have a story where the bad guys win.. and those are usually not very well-liked.. So you could theoretically say I'm not excited about most books/movies/stories in the world because I already know the good guys are going to win.. Ok it's a good assumption to make... but the how's, the when's, the why's, the actual storyline(s), the characters, the details... Just everything.. it's so much more than just that. Using that logic of "excitement" I might as well not have not read the book. There's much more to any (good) story than knowing the good guys win.

The Immortal One
01-20-2011, 07:41 PM
you know that shaitan has got no hope in hell and is going to get sealed up back again.

You shouldn't say that name. It's dangerous.

Most stories in the world have the good guys win.

... but the how's, the when's, the why's, the actual storyline(s), the characters, the details... Just everything.. it's so much more than just that.

There's much more to any (good) story than knowing the good guys win.

AGREEMENT!!

sheikh chilli
01-20-2011, 08:09 PM
but we already know how it's going to end. shaitan gets sealed up. Game over. The only thing i suppose is how. There's nothing exciting about that.

Yes most of other fantasy series also have the good guys win but they leave you guessing till the last minute on how it happens.

We already know how the baddies are going to lose. Their master gets locked up for second time.

Juan
01-20-2011, 08:38 PM
but we already know how it's going to end. shaitan gets sealed up. Game over. The only thing i suppose is how. There's nothing exciting about that.

Yes most of other fantasy series also have the good guys win but they leave you guessing till the last minute on how it happens.

We already know how the baddies are going to lose. Their master gets locked up for second time.

I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but you said "we already know how it's going to end. Then you say "the only thing i suppose is how. So this seems very incongruent to me. And then again later you say "we already know how the baddies are going to lose. So you're going back to your original point. I don't know what to think here. But. Let's going back to the we already know how it's going to end statement. Far as I remember, we don't know how. It has been theorized, guessed at, but we don't know. Could be the DO gets sealed up by repairing the Bore. Could be that new seals are put in place. Could be in some crazy way, Rand actually kills the DO. Could be that the Seanchan build some super laser beam and use it to destroy the DO. But I could hardly say we know how. And like I said before. The how the good guys win is only part of it. There's still everything else. Refer to my original comment for those other elements. And I'm sure there's more, I just don't have the time to try and type every element I can think of.

morat'corlm
01-21-2011, 12:25 AM
We already know how the baddies are going to lose. Their master gets locked up for second time.We've known that from the fourth book, and arguably from the first.There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time.
(From Charal Drianaan te Calamon, The Cycle of the Dragon. Author unknown, the Fourth Age)

Sodas
01-21-2011, 01:08 AM
I disagree that knowing the ending, ruins the book. There are many historic novels where we know the ending, and yet the books are very enjoyable. A classic example that could have effected Jordan, would have been The Killer Angels, which won the Pulitzer prize in 1975. Even if you know the ending because it focuses on the motivations and decisions of the Generals during the battle of Gettysburg, it's an great read.

Jordan is just twisting the notion of a historical novel a bit further, by telling the story almost as if it was being written by a 4th Age Michael Shaara. We know the Light will win this time. But how? why? What are the motivations and decisions that will lead us there? That is what makes a good story.

Zombie Sammael
01-21-2011, 03:16 AM
Will it get sealed though? Will Rand turn to the Dark at last possible second? Will he die or survive? If he survives will he still be him? What about Alivia? What about the Aiel and the Seanchan? What if the DO gets a shot at another counter-stroke, tainting something else? What about Moridin? What's the deal with Slayer? What will Moiraine do that's so necessary for the light's victory? What about Mierin, is she worth saving? Will the Wheel continue to turn, or are some of the looney theories true? Who really killed Asmo (really)? Who will live and who will die? Is Rand the third Summers' brother? Can we take Brandon Sanderson outside and poke him with sticks until he's sorry for using the word "magic" in a WOT novel?

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 04:55 AM
you know that shaitan has got no hope in hell and is going to get sealed up back again.

...

this series has been with me since i was 17 years old and has a huge influence when it comes to my taste in books

I don't know when you turned 17, but I was already 41 and retired when tEotW was first printed in paperback (Nov 1990) It hasn't influenced my tatste in books as much as it fits my tatste books.

Still, I have no idea how the series ends -- I've always kind of halfway expected a conversion to Linear Time rather than the DO being sealed back up, only to have another chance come around in the next Turning.

RJ said shortly after the series started that "the greatest gift the ancient Greeks gave the world was Linear Time." It would therefore not really surprise me for him to give that same "gift" to his creation based on the predecessor of Linear Time. The Denizens of his creation wouldn't notice the difference any more than most of ancient Greece or it's neighbors noticed the invention of Linear Time by Greek Philosphers.

ChubbyAiel
01-21-2011, 08:35 AM
I've often thought about this conversion to linear time as well, based on the same Jordan quote, but with Rand's Buddha-style awakening where he thinks about the benefits of being reborn again and again, I'm less sure. It's still possible, though and keeps us guessing.

To the Original Poster: We can be sure Rand will win. We might even be almost 100% sure he'll rebuild the prison and seal the Dark One in again. But how exactly will he achieve it? What will be the methods he uses, who will support him? What will be the cost to the characters personally? What sort of world will arise afterwards?

Decent books and films are worth reading/watching more than once because as important as the ending is how you get there and the developments en route.

jana
01-21-2011, 10:08 AM
Rand/The Ending barely make my top 5 for things I care about reading in WoT. That doesn't mean I won't love reading it, especially now that Moiraine is back, but I would much rather read a book of Mat's adventures than find out how Rand beats the Dark One.

Mam A'Lemur
01-21-2011, 10:30 AM
you know that shaitan has got no hope in hell and is going to get sealed up back again.



I just find that statement incredibly funny. Of course he has no hope. He's the slayer of hope. And in hell. Snicker snicker snicker. What's the DO's prison? Sounds like hell to me. No hope in hell. hahahahaha
Anyways, I read plenty of books that I know the ending to. I like finding out the whys, hows and wherefores. I even read books over again, after reading them once and finding out the ending.

Juan
01-21-2011, 12:57 PM
lol Mam. Good call. Gave me a nice laugh.

TankSpill
01-21-2011, 01:19 PM
RJ said shortly after the series started that "the greatest gift the ancient Greeks gave the world was Linear Time." It would therefore not really surprise me for him to give that same "gift" to his creation based on the predecessor of Linear Time. The Denizens of his creation wouldn't notice the difference any more than most of ancient Greece or it's neighbors noticed the invention of Linear Time by Greek Philosphers.

Good points - I've wondered many times if part of Rand's plan (which Moridin/Ishamael couldn't really know about) involve actually destroying the "Wheel" and setting the world and universe on a unique path that will never repeat.

However, that doesn't really fit with how RJ has described Randland as both "Past and Future Earth."

As for "knowing how it's going to end," I think it's a little presumptuous of you (shiek) to say you "know." People who assume they "know" how something ends before the ending actually takes place are either prophetic or delusional, and I don't believe in prophecy. At best, you can theorize, and you can do it based on some damned good evidence, but you still don't know until it happens.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 02:10 PM
...setting the world and universe on a unique path that will never repeat.

However, that doesn't really fit with how RJ has described Randland as both "Past and Future Earth."


I would say that contradiction would fall into the same category as "Foretelling/Min's viewings/Prophecy is always true -- provided the Pattern survives T'G" (OWTTE)

That's a relatively new thought within the series. I think Min was the one who has expressed it in the series.

Rahvin571
01-21-2011, 02:50 PM
Remember Tam's (paraphrased) words from TGS:

The end of the journey isn't as important so much as how you get there.

TankSpill
01-26-2011, 10:15 PM
"He who is certain he knows the ending of things when he is only beginning them is either extremely wise or extremely foolish; no matter which is true, he is certainly an unhappy man, for he has put a knife in the heart of wonder."
Tad Williams

This may be applicable to the discussion.

kasper11
02-03-2011, 07:55 AM
What we know is that the world will continue after the last battle. Which we knew already because of the Foretelling..."the great battle done but the world not done with battle".

And, if anything, Aviendha's trip through the columns has made me question whether or not Rand will actually win long term. The Seanchan, using a slave army, conquer the world? Seems like the DO's doing. Like an alternate plan that if the Dragon wins and seals up the prison, he ensures chaos and strife. And could he not have agents waiting to re-drill into his prison, and begin the fight again with no Dragon to stand against him?

ChubbyAiel
02-03-2011, 08:11 AM
if anything, Aviendha's trip through the columns has made me question whether or not Rand will actually win long term. The Seanchan, using a slave army, conquer the world? Seems like the DO's doing.

That certainly would be a rather bleak ending, but I wouldn't attribute it to the Dark One. I hope that that future will be avoided but it has a certain gritty attraction, the idea that the ultimate evil will be defeated (for a time at least) but you can't change the fact that some people will continue to act upon their greed, ignorance, hatred and prejudice to produce their own evil. I like the idea that we have to face the reality that evil is in us all, and often the most evil people don't recognise that what they're doing is evil (e.g. the Seanchan truly believe that channellers should be leashed, and not to leash them would be evil) and can't admit they might be wrong.

In the Age of Legends, criminals were still punished with severing, and I think Semirhage (or one of the Forsaken) was later discovered to have tortured her patients for fun, all in a utopian society before the Dark One was unleashed and free to act upon the world. The utopia of that Age meant that most people didn't have the motivation to commit crime, but some still did, evidently.

Maybe the Dragon can defeat the Dark One, but he can't change human nature...

But having said all that, I'm sure the future Aviendha saw won't come to pass.

subwoofer
02-06-2011, 08:10 AM
Long ago the WoT turned from books about good vs. evil to being more character driven. It is the dynamic of the people and how they are handling the situation they are thrust into that keeps me going. And for all we know, Lan dies, or Thom dies, or somebody dies... that's what keeps me reading. Everything can't be sweetness and light during the Last Battle.

knightofround
02-07-2011, 03:28 AM
Yeah ever since I saw that Fourth Age quote I figured that the LB was more about "sealing the DO forever" vs "sealing the DO imperfectly" like second age. It was a letdown, but I'm glad it was sorta hidden at the end so the casual reader might not notice it.

But you have to admit, it would definitely be a noteworthy literary event if the bad guys end up winning in the end. However I think RJ's writing is too positive for that happen.

bgrishinko
02-07-2011, 11:43 AM
I've always kinda wondered about the ending. I've thought to myself... If the Age of Legends and LTT was what the Wheel of Time focused on, then it would have been just as awesome of a book series. We would have seen the big battle/happy ending where the DO is sealed and success... then the madness begins. Dragonmount would have ended the book... that would have been... foreboding. I wouldn't put it past RJ to do something like that. I mean, we've seen Aviendha's possible posterity future which doesn't bode well for the most part already.

alleluia_cone
02-07-2011, 05:46 PM
However I think RJ's writing is too positive for that happen.

I'll say . . . his heroes are immortal and Nynaeve is basically indistinguishable from God within the confines of the story.

sheikh chilli
02-07-2011, 07:11 PM
yeah just imagine if the wheel of time was all about the age of legends and it ended with the backlash.

It would have been awesome! Then we would have a new set of books focusin on the current series. It would have been fantastic.

Terez
02-07-2011, 07:14 PM
If only RJ had been immortal...

bgrishinko
02-07-2011, 07:28 PM
True that. Maybe we could still get Brandon involved with Immortal RJ though so we'd still have someone to talk to online all the time. Once Nynaeve figures out how to heal death we can go and resurrect RJ. Now, we just need to find a channeler... oh, right...

Blast.

Terez
02-07-2011, 07:29 PM
I have been trying to find him in TAR for years now!

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2011, 04:18 AM
I have been trying to find him in TAR for years now!IT IS NOT HERE.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF SHE WILL.

Daekyras
02-08-2011, 05:15 AM
i hope you didn't enter in the flesh T. Bad things can happen that way.....

Asfor not being excited about the end- i cant take that stance seriously. Even if the books were terrible (they aren't!) after 14 of them you would still HAVE to be excited/anticipant about the end..

The fact thaat WoT is probably the greatest fantasy ever written means that after 20 years or reading them i'm still on the edge of my seat looking forward to the end and would also love a proper series of outriggers.

Meh, maybe it's just me...

Seeker
02-08-2011, 09:55 AM
you know that shaitan has got no hope in hell and is going to get sealed up back again.

I knew that the baddies would never win but when those outrigger novels were first mentioned then it really did confirm that the light win in the end. I guess you could say the impending dread one felt reading the earlier books has vanished and now it's just case of turning up at shayol ghul and resealing the bore and audios and goodnight.

somehow i can't feel any sort of excitement for the last book anymore which is a shame because this series has been with me since i was 17 years old and has a huge influence when it comes to my taste in books

See, this is why I've never bought into the whole, everything's predetermined, everything's carved in stone mantra that people love around here.

We don't know what the ending is.

Maybe Rand destroys the Dark One.

Maybe Rand makes linear time.

Maybe Rand changes the weave of the Pattern into a new cycle.

Maybe Rand only achieves a partial victory and he light still has to battle the Shadow.

We don't know. We just assumed he's going to go reseal the bore and everything is going to be tied up in a neat, little bow.

So, I'm very excited about the ending. I think it's going to be nothing less than five kinds of kick-ass.

The Immortal One
02-08-2011, 09:25 PM
Dragonmount would have ended the book... that would have been... foreboding. I wouldn't put it past RJ to do something like that.

Yeah. It would be good to have something similar. It would probably show the 'circularity of time' thing well.

wireguy
02-09-2011, 01:00 AM
I have to agree with most of the posters here in that knowing what the general outcome of the main story arc doesn't diminish the excitement of the final book being released. I've read so many classic and neoclassic novels and stories knowing full well what the approximate outcome will be with total and complete satisfaction.

I'm looking forward to the end with both anticipation and apprehension; anticipation in that the story will finally be finished after so long and apprehension in that a literary series that has been a part of my life for the past 18ish years is coming to a close. The entire cast of characters have become like old friends that I have had the pleasure of visiting every 1-2 years and will, from that day forward, be forever reminiscing and reveling in the past instead of experiencing the growth and decay of the years to come.