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Terez
01-25-2011, 02:03 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.

Prove me wrong.

Fie
01-25-2011, 02:30 AM
The Shadow rising, "Deceptions" :
Siuan Amyrlin: "And Leane...Mazrim Taim is to be gentled as soon as he is taken again.......I´ll not risk another Guaire Amalasan"

clearly foreshadowing :rolleyes: that Taim is Guaire reborn, so Logain cannot be Guaire reborn, unless...Taim and Logain swapped somewhen after and now Moridin is Logain and Guaire reborn and Logain is Taim or is it the other way round ? Moridin is Logain and Logain is Taim and Guaire... :D

Terez
01-25-2011, 02:31 AM
"Watch names," Siuan whispered sharply, shooting a meaning glance at the rough door with the guard on the other side. "A flapping tongue can put you in the net instead of the fish."

Min grimaced, partly because she was growing tired of Siuan's Tairen fisherman's sayings, and partly because the other woman was right. So far they had outrun awkward news – deadly was a better word than awkward – but some news had a way of leaping a hundred miles in a day. Siuan had been traveling as Mara, Leane as Amaena, and Logain had taken the name Dalyn, after Siuan convinced him Guaire was a fool's choice. Min still did not think anyone would recognize her own name, but Siuan insisted on calling her Serenla. Even Logain did not know their true names.
:rolleyes:

Fie
01-25-2011, 02:42 AM
Of course Suain knows it´s a fool´s choice, as Taim is Guaire :p

Siuan is silly.

Hmm, I´m afraid I found something for your case. Logain wears a pin with 3 golden crowns in a field of blue. Guire had on his banner the ancient symbol in a field of blue, so that´s settled for me as I´m a sucker for colours (and I do tell you the red-black-connection is enough to prove Taim/Moridin :cool: ). Ok, you´right, Logain is Guaire reborn :)

As well, in Knife of Dreams in the Trolloc attack, he quickly learns LTT´s AoL weaves.

Terez
01-25-2011, 02:54 AM
They are also described very similarly as far as personality goes. Compare the BWB description of Guaire with Logain in the cage from Rand's POV in TEOTW.

Fie
01-25-2011, 03:27 AM
A False Dragon reborn as a False Dragon. Poor Logain.

My BWB lists the False Dragons chronoglogically as follows:
335 NZ Raolin Darksbane
1300 NZ Yurian Stonebow
351 FJ Davian
939 FJ Guaire Amalasan

997 NÄ Logain
998 NÄ Mazrim Taim

then Rand as the, well, true Dragon

Do you notice there´s just Davian and Logain listed just with one name?
If Logain is a FD reborn, would Taim as well have to be one?
The BWB says that there have been more FDs in the last years than ever before, but there don´t seem other names mentioned.
There seems to be "lot" info just for Guaire, so if he is Logain, we couldn´t find a counterpart for Taim.

maacaroni
01-25-2011, 04:26 AM
Do you notice there´s just Davian and Logain listed just with one name?

Errm Logain Ablar?

Fie
01-25-2011, 04:32 AM
Of course Ablar, I know. But the BWB says "Logain", not "Logain Ablar" and it says "Davian". All others with both names. Was just a rhetorical-foreshadowing-joke-question.
Btw, Logain is widely called Logain, Taim is widely called Taim. Probably because one is more bound to use, if just one name, the given name for a "good" person and the last name for a "bad" person. But either way, Taim is listed with "Mazrim Taim", Logain Ablar just with "Logain". Of course I do just think it was negligence of the BWB or fondness of Logain, thus naming him with his given name only.
And I suppose this Davian has at least one more name as well, I´m just cross with Ishamael and everyone else who mentions it, not to tell the whole name of one person when they did with all others. I´m like that.

Zombie Sammael
01-25-2011, 04:41 AM
Wasn't there another false Dragon mention in TGH as appearing around the same time as Taim?

Might Couladin count as a false Dragon in a sense?

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2011, 05:38 AM
Why isn't there a False Coramoor?

Oh, and Taim is Logain. That's obvious; we've never seen them both in the same scene, have we?

Daekyras
01-25-2011, 06:35 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.
Prove me wrong.

why would Guaure Amalasan want arthur hawkwings sword? :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-25-2011, 06:55 AM
why would Guaure Amalasan want arthur hawkwings sword? :)Because it used to be his, until Hawkwing took it from him.

lurk
01-25-2011, 09:31 AM
aaah so when fortuona claims the sword she wil be thwarted by logain claiming it is mine

aah I see the sword is actually the ring and logain is gollum and that will happen at the last battle




sorry, heheh mind is a bit fuzzy right now

WinespringBrother
01-25-2011, 10:09 AM
It is an intriguing idea. The biggest problem is that Guaire was considered a great general, conquering until his defeat after 4 years at the hands of the mighty Hawkwing. Meanwhile, Logain was defeated by a "loose alliance of southern nations". Not too impressive.

Davian93
01-25-2011, 10:39 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.

Prove me wrong.

Logain does not wear a cape...thus he is not anyone reborn and not a Hero.

End of discussion.

Terez
01-25-2011, 12:15 PM
It is an intriguing idea. The biggest problem is that Guaire was considered a great general, conquering until his defeat after 4 years at the hands of the mighty Hawkwing. Meanwhile, Logain was defeated by a "loose alliance of southern nations". Not too impressive.
Mostly, he was defeated by Aes Sedai...and notably before he'd had the chance to conquer any nations. Guaire Amalasan didn't have to compete with the real Dragon (as far as the Pattern is concerned).

Terez
01-25-2011, 01:15 PM
Also...

aaah so when fortuona claims the sword she wil be thwarted by logain claiming it is mine

aah I see the sword is actually the ring and logain is gollum and that will happen at the last battle
...the future teeters on the edge of a blade. :)

Cor Shan
01-25-2011, 01:34 PM
A False Dragon reborn as a False Dragon. Poor Logain.

My BWB lists the False Dragons chronoglogically as follows:
335 NZ Raolin Darksbane
1300 NZ Yurian Stonebow
351 FJ Davian
939 FJ Guaire Amalasan

997 NÄ Logain
998 NÄ Mazrim Taim

then Rand as the, well, true Dragon

Do you notice there´s just Davian and Logain listed just with one name?
If Logain is a FD reborn, would Taim as well have to be one?
The BWB says that there have been more FDs in the last years than ever before, but there don´t seem other names mentioned.
There seems to be "lot" info just for Guaire, so if he is Logain, we couldn´t find a counterpart for Taim.

Theres a lot of info on Guiare because he led to Hawkwing going all Alexander the Great on the Westlands.

Terez
01-25-2011, 02:44 PM
He was also presumably the most successful of all of them. He conquered more land than Rand did.

Davian93
01-25-2011, 04:16 PM
He was also presumably the most successful of all of them. He conquered more land than Rand did.

It might actually be pretty even when you consider Rand took over the Waste too. Amalasian obviously never did that.

FelixPax
01-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.


Your making four of separate claims about Logain here.



#3 Claim: Logain thinks he is the Dragon Reborn.


Recall what the title "Lord Dragon" is what's used in the "Fourth Age", not the Dragon Reborn title. That distinction matters.

Your claim does not even distinish if there are one or more "Dragons" in the series? Are all ta'verens Dragons? Or not?

Siuan has viewed, traveled extensively with Logain. Yet Siuan has never mentioned Logain being ta'veren. Can one be a Dragon without being ta'veren?



#4 Claim: You do not specific WHICH darn "Sword", you think Logain will ask for?


Laman's Sword?
Callandor?
Justice?



Weak claims, Terez. You can do, far better than this. I know you can. :)



How about Callandor?

Rand choose Jahar to grasp that blade.


How about Justice?

Rand knows for a fact that was Artur Hawkwing's blade.
Logain is not Hawkwing, either.
Mat Cauthon is Hawkwing's soul reborn.


How about King Laman's jewel encrusted sword?


It's a sign of who leads the Aiel Clans and Cairhien.


Who might receive King Laman's sword?


Galad--Rand's half brother.



What's a few interesting facets of Logain's character, in terms of AMoL book?



He received a direct "promise" from the Amyrlin Seat, Egwene al'Vere: 'of protection' with a condition attached.

“I swear this to you. I will never harm you, nor allow you to be harmed by any who follow me if I can help it, unless you turn against us.” The rage had gone from his face, replaced by woodenness. Was he listening? “But the Hall will do as it decides. Are you calm, now?” He nodded wearily, and she released the flows.


Lord of Chaos--Egwene point of view, with Logain

Perhaps treason & mutiny are in the cards, for Logain? Just like Elayne? Gareth? Gawyn? Red Ajah? Novices? A bottom-up rebellion including even Warders, Cooks? All in treason or mutiny against a sitting Amyrlin Seat?

Also of importance is Elayne 'cares' for Logain, as an individual.




Who does Logain think is the Dragon Reborn?


“You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a . . . a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing.”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30 "To Heal Again" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Logain


Undecided?

Terez
01-25-2011, 07:51 PM
I did miss that oblique reference. But it doesn't change the fact that he treats Rand like an equal and won't address him as 'Lord Dragon'.

And I think everyone else knew which sword I was talking about, and Gonzo was clever enough to figure out why it was relevant.

Juan
01-25-2011, 08:15 PM
Logain sees Rand as the Dragon Reborn. Treating him as an equal human being does not mean they're both equal in terms of authority. We've seen how Logain defers to Rand.

Example: Mat and Vanin. You know, Vanin the horsethief scout who defers to Mat and yet doesn't treat Mat like a lord or superior.

Same story with Logain.

Terez
01-25-2011, 08:31 PM
Logain sees Rand as the Dragon Reborn.
Prove it.

Juan
01-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Felix did in his post.

He quoted

“You know, I saw a man once who will cause more trouble than I ever did. Maybe it was the Dragon Reborn; I don’t know. It was when they took me through Caemlyn after I was captured. He was far away, but I saw a . . . a glow, and I knew he’d shake the world. Caged as I was, I couldn’t help laughing.”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30 "To Heal Again" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Logain

The "I saw a man.... maybe it was the Dragon Reborn" shows that he definitely doesn't see himself as the Dragon Reborn. And the way he works under Rand shows that he sees Rand as the Dragon Reborn.

Also. If Logain had Guaire's memories, or other past memories for that matter as you say, he'd realize that he doesn't have LTT's memories. So sorry. No way in hell that it makes sense to say that.

Your turn. Prove yourself right.

Terez
01-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Felix did in his post.
No, he didn't.

The "I saw a man.... maybe it was the Dragon Reborn" shows that he definitely doesn't see himself as the Dragon Reborn.
The 'maybe' bit allows for some indecision on his part. Also, he's under the influence of the taint, so he's allowed to be delusional. Hell, Rand believed that Lews Therin was another person, and talking to him. Clearly the delusions of a madman.

FelixPax
01-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Also...


...the future teeters on the edge of a blade. :)

“The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 14 "Dreams and Nightmares" -- Nynaeve point of view.

With Anaiya, Nicola, Elayne,Shimoku, Calindin,Emara, Ronelle, Satina,Mulinda, Ashmanaille and Bharatine, in listening range.



Who's blade? What blade?

Justice? In the hands of?
Rand? Fortuona? Mat Cauthon?



Or for all, we know Terez, that blade is the 'Sword of Kirukan' held by Nynaeve al'Meara.

Not Callandor.
Not Justice.
Not Laman's Sword.


What blade can help "kill time"?

Sword of Kirukan.


It was called the Sword of Kirukan, at any rate, and the fabled warrior Queen of Aramaelle might have carried it. The blade was ancient, some said Power-wrought.

The Path of Daggers, Prologue "Deceptive Appearance" -- Ethenielle point of view

Lan has mentioned seeing the Sword of Kirukan, it's a Power-wrought alright(TGH book).


Legend said Kirukan had beheaded a false Dragon with her own hands, and borne two sons by another man who could channel. Or maybe the same one. She might have known how to go about their purpose and survive.


The Path of Daggers, Prologue "Deceptive Appearance" -- Ethenielle point of view

The last line, I suspect is referring to both Nynaeve and Elayne.

Daekyras
01-26-2011, 05:36 AM
Because it used to be his, until Hawkwing took it from him.

I knew that, just trying to further the discussion.

"the future teeters on the edge of a blade"

lots of sword possibilities but what about the chances that refers to

a) the shadar logoth dagger
b)random prosaic point

could be....

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2011, 05:56 AM
As RJ once said:
NY, NY: Why was there a blue light flashing when Thom met the Fade in Whitebridge?
RJ: Because Thom's best knives are very special indeed.

alleluia_cone
01-26-2011, 02:37 PM
Logain does not wear a cape...thus he is not anyone reborn and not a Hero.

End of discussion.

Weren't we still in the process of determining what is and what isn't a cape?

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2011, 02:52 PM
Weren't we still in the process of determining what is and what isn't a cape?If a cloak would do, then Logain is eligible for Hero status:
With all of that, it was the man in the cage who caught and held Rand's eyes. He was not close enough to see Logain's face, as he had wanted to, but suddenly he thought he was as close as he cared for. The false Dragon was a tall man, with long, dark hair curling around his broad shoulders. He held himself upright against the sway of the wagon with one hand on the bars over his head. His clothes seemed ordinary, a cloak and coat and breeches that would not have caused comment in any farming village. But the way he wore them. The way he held himself. Logain was a king in every inch of him. The cage might as well not have been there. He held himself erect, head high, and looked over the crowd as if they had come to do him honor. And wherever his gaze swept, there the people fell silent, staring back in awe. When Logain's eyes left them, they screamed with redoubled fury as if to make up for their silence, but it made no difference in the way the man stood, or in the silence that passed along with him. As the wagon rolled through the Palace gates, he turned to look back at the assembled masses. They howled at him, beyond words, a wave of sheer animal hate and fear, and Logain threw back his head and laughed as the Palace swallowed him.

morat'corlm
01-26-2011, 05:11 PM
He has a halo and a gold-embroidered red coat with tails and is "as proud and confident as an eagle" (a caped eagle?). Surely that's close enough.

Davian93
01-26-2011, 06:58 PM
If a cloak would do, then Logain is eligible for Hero status:

We've discussed this before...a cloak is not a cape. Only Tuon and Valan Luca wear capes.

Neilbert
01-26-2011, 07:19 PM
And I think everyone else knew which sword I was talking about, and Gonzo was clever enough to figure out why it was relevant.

Who owned the sword originally? Like back in the AOL when it was made. Has LTT been ruled out as owner? It does have his emblem carved into it.

Davian93
01-26-2011, 07:20 PM
Who owned the sword originally? Like back in the AOL when it was made. Has LTT been ruled out as owner? It does have his emblem carved into it.

I thought the case was newer than the sword...was the case just as old? I dont recall the quote reading that way.

Neilbert
01-26-2011, 07:45 PM
I'm probably wrong then. Does the blade itself have any ornamentation?

Davian93
01-26-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm probably wrong then. Does the blade itself have any ornamentation?

Nope...just checked. You were right.


TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 1 - Tears from Steel
He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. Hefingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they shouldfind this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding.... He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath hisfingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin's memories—but Rand's own.

Cor Shan
01-27-2011, 01:12 AM
So if Rand remembers the scabbard is he Guiare Amalasan?

Terez
01-27-2011, 02:23 AM
The blade is plain, which means it probably wasn't Lews Therin's, and besides, Lews Therin specifically did not remember it (or at least, Rand remembered it from Falme rather than from Lews Therin's memories). Anyway, the heron-mark swords were originally made for lord-generals among which Lews Therin was presumably first, so it's doubtful he would have worn a plain soldier's sword (as Lan's was). Of course, any Power-wrought weapon is valuable these days, to the point that if a blademaster gets his hands on one he'd be more likely to use it than a modern-day heron-mark.

The scabbard is the bit with the dragons on it, and the reason why it was likely Amalasan's sword before it was Hawkwing's (well, along with the other obvious reasons). Unless Hawkwing simply had a dragon scabbard made to signify that he defeated Guaire Amalasan. I think the name 'Second Dragon' is interesting. I'm sure it just means that Amalasan was the second false Dragon since the Trolloc Wars, but it's interesting in light of the fact that Amalasan was so successful, and even more interesting if Logain is Amalasan reborn. Yes, we all know Rand is the real Dragon, but we also know that Logain is destined to step up where Rand has been slacking.

Davian93
01-27-2011, 01:45 PM
Yeah, the Amalasian link is as good a bet as any.

FelixPax
01-27-2011, 04:08 PM
We've discussed this before...a cloak is not a cape. Only Tuon and Valan Luca wear capes.

It's not so clear cut, as that, see Tuon's view on that 'claim':


Anath was standing by the railing, in unrelieved black silk, outwardly undisturbed by the chill wind in spite of her lack of a cloak or cape.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides"-- Tuon point of view



Capes? You omitted to include these individuals, who have in fact worn wear capes:


Tuon (Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides" ; )
Davram Bashere (TPoD, Chapter 21 "Answering the Summons" -- Rand pov)
Weiramon (TPoD, Chapter 21 "Answering the Summons" -- Rand pov)
Lady Ailil (TPoD, Chapter 22 "Gathering Clouds" -- Rand pov)
Anaiyella (TPoD, Chapter 22 "Gathering Clouds" -- Rand pov ; TPoD, Chapter 24 "A Time for Iron" -- Rand pov)
Lewin (TSR, Chapter 25 "The Road to the Spear" --Rand pov of this Aiel ancestor)



Sure seems like if and when Rand al'Thor mets Valan Luca in AMoL, he's going to instantly KNOW who Luca is. A Hero.

How? By looking into his eyes.


Curiously, Luc once tried the very same thing with Faile in Two Rivers... perhaps to seek to find out if Faile was a darkfriend or not. Rand al'Thor did this very thing in TofM book to learn about Anaiyella, Weiramon prior associations with the Shadow: looking into a person's eyes.

The Rand al'Thor of TofM book & Birgitte know who Valan Luca truly is. Knowledge gained through different mechanisms though.

Sodas
01-29-2011, 03:52 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn.

Why? Why spin Guiare back out after less than half an Age. It's not like Guiare was a Hero. He was just some smuck male channeler the White Tower was using. The Pattern spun out Artur Hawkwing, the most powerful Ta'veren besides the Dragon, for the very reason of correcting what may have amounted to abuse by the White Tower of their power.

So if Guiare wasn't tied to the Wheel, why would the Pattern have him reborn now?

he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn.

He can't. The PLE at Falme stopped any such ability as Rand is clearly the Dragon Reborn at that point. Why spin out Guiare only to undermine itself?

No, Logain was spun out to help, even if for his own reasons, Rand. Logain has a much nobler ambition from what we have seen.

Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.

It's not his. It's Hawkwing's. I know, Guiare carried it, but Hawkwing defeated Guiare. So it's Hawkwing's. He appears in T'A'R at Falme with it.

I guess, if Guaire was a Hero, he could have just asked for it back in T'A'R. :rolleyes::D

Terez
01-29-2011, 09:01 AM
Why? Why spin Guiare back out after less than half an Age.
Birgitte gets spun out far more often than that. Why not?

It's not like Guiare was a Hero.
Says who?

No, Logain was spun out to help, even if for his own reasons, Rand.
Yes, we know.

It's not his. It's Hawkwing's. I know, Guiare carried it, but Hawkwing defeated Guiare. So it's Hawkwing's. He appears in T'A'R at Falme with it.
Doesn't mean Logain sees it that way.

Sodas
01-30-2011, 12:31 AM
Birgitte gets spun out because she is a "lessor" Hero. A Hero that is needed often, to generally solve smaller problems in the pattern. She isn't like Hawkwing, a Hero that is born perhaps once an Age, to correct a major problem.

Guiare, on the other hand, is not a Hero because his actions, and the results of his actions that we know of, are not Hero worthy. He was a false Dragon. People died, needlessly, because of the Chaos he caused, and because of the battles and wars he caused. The result was a backlash by the Pattern, i.e. the emergence of Hawkwing. So Guaire was defeated by the Will of the Pattern, a good indication that he was on the wrong side of what the Pattern was hoping to achieve.

It's like saying, I hope Billy the Kid was reborn as Logain. Why the heck would the Billy the Kid or Guiare Amalasan be even remotely considered Heroes of the Horn?

Aulis Vaara
01-30-2011, 08:10 AM
The pattern is neither good, nor evil. Saying that Guaire's actions were not according to the pattern comes dangerously close to claiming the pattern is good.

Maybe Guaire needed to come into the pattern so that Hawkwing could rise up, unite the lands, and send his armies across the ocean so that they could be forgotten and then return shortly before Tarmon Gai'don.

All of that would not have been possible had Guaire not been such a big threat. That's a pretty good clue that Guaire was an important thread in the Pattern.

Weird Harold
01-30-2011, 08:36 AM
All of that would not have been possible had Guaire not been such a big threat. That's a pretty good clue that Guaire was an important thread in the Pattern.

Being "an important thread" isn't the same thing as being a Hero Of The Horn.

Doing bad things -- like conquering the known world by force of arms and sending massive fleets out to conquer the unknown -- is not necessarily a bar to being a Hero Of The Horn either.

Aulis Vaara
01-30-2011, 11:32 AM
Which was not my point. Sodas dismissed him because he wreaked havoc, rather than being a force of good. My point was that he was important, and thus deserved to be considered as such, since the pattern is neither good, nor evil.

It doesn't mean he's a Hero, obviously, but he was important, and thus MIGHT have that status.

Sodas
01-31-2011, 01:09 AM
The pattern is neither good, nor evil. Saying that Guaire's actions were not according to the pattern comes dangerously close to claiming the pattern is good.

Good? No. The Pattern wants equilibrium.

When it senses that one side is winning too much, it spins out what it needs to restore balance.



"You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way."

Glimmers Ebook Interview
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue



All of that would not have been possible had Guaire not been such a big threat. That's a pretty good clue that Guaire was an important thread in the Pattern.

- Being important is not the same thing as being a Hero.

- Guaire was important because he was an example of the Saidar users going too far. They used him to cause the Chaos they needed to gain more power for themselves. And in doing so, risked a False Dragon trying to perhaps reseal the Pattern. Which could have ended in another catastrophe.

The point is Guaire is not a Hero. He is not the Dragon. He was not destined to reseal the Dark One.

But he was a threat to the equilibrium and the Pattern had to react.

Terez
01-31-2011, 02:53 AM
No one's just going to take your word for what Heroes should be, Sodas. Pretty much all of them have ended up doing the wrong thing at some point or another. Artur Hawkwing himself was under the influence of Ishamael for many years, and Lews Therin began the Breaking.

You say that Amalasan wasn't a Hero if he was Logain reborn because he just lived 1000 years ago, and then you say Birgitte was born so often because she was a 'lessor' [sic] Hero. It only makes sense to you, I promise.

Sodas
01-31-2011, 05:09 PM
No one's just going to take your word for what Heroes should be, Sodas. Pretty much all of them have ended up doing the wrong thing at some point or another. Artur Hawkwing himself was under the influence of Ishamael for many years, and Lews Therin began the Breaking.

Strawman argument. Heroes are not perfect, no one said they were.


You say that Amalasan wasn't a Hero if he was Logain reborn because he just lived 1000 years ago, and then you say Birgitte was born so often because she was a 'lessor' [sic] Hero. It only makes sense to you, I promise.

Sounds like a personal problem. Maybe you should stick to less complex thoughts, don't want you to hurt yourself trying to think.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 05:14 PM
The point is Guaire is not a Hero. He is not the Dragon. He was not destined to reseal the Dark One.There are other things that Heroes may do.
Logain, for instance, isn't going to reseal the DO either, but he will do something that is almost certainly Hero worthy, if Min's viewings of him have any truth to them. And if Amalasan is Logain pre-born, then that would mean that he could very well have been a Hero then too.

Terez
01-31-2011, 05:25 PM
Sounds like a personal problem.
Yes dear - yours. But maybe someone else will show up who thinks it makes sense. We will see.

Cor Shan
01-31-2011, 10:15 PM
I see no reason why The Lesser Dragon could not be a HotH.

Sodas
01-31-2011, 11:34 PM
There are other things that Heroes may do. Logain, for instance, isn't going to reseal the DO either, but he will do something that is almost certainly Hero worthy, if Min's viewings of him have any truth to them.

So you are suggesting that Logain is going to BECOME a Hero? That conflicts with the rest of your statement.

And if Amalasan is Logain pre-born, then that would mean that he could very well have been a Hero then too.

How can Logain BECOME a Hero if his prior incarnation was already been a Hero? If his prior incarnation was a Hero, then he is being respun out and is already a Hero.


You say that Amalasan wasn't a Hero if he was Logain reborn because he just lived 1000 years ago."
Post #49

No, I didn't say that. He would have to be a Hero to be reborn in the same turning of the Wheel. But Amalasan isn't a Hero based upon his own actions. That is where the disqualification lies.

Guiare, on the other hand, is not a Hero because his actions, and the results of his actions that we know of, are not Hero worthy.
Post #44

Terez
02-01-2011, 12:43 AM
Ah, I remember now. It was:

1. Why would Logain/Guaire be born again after only 1000 years? He's not a Hero. (Implying that only Heroes are born more than once in an Age, which you made up completely.)

2. Birgitte is born so often because she is a 'lessor' [sic] Hero.

So, you're saying that regular people aren't born so often as Heroes are, but 'lessor' Heroes are born more often than the important ones. Also, Heroes aren't perfect and are allowed to do horrible things, but people who do horrible things aren't worthy to be Heroes. Some interesting rules you made up there. Again, I'm sure they make sense to you.

morat'corlm
02-01-2011, 02:41 AM
There's no such thing as a heroic lessor.

Sodas
02-01-2011, 03:25 AM
(Implying that only Heroes are born more than once in an Age, which you made up completely.)

Everyone is reborn once per turning of the Wheel. Except Heroes.

'lessor' Heroes are born more often than the important ones.

Yes.

It's simple math. The likely-hood of the need for an epic, Age changing type Hero is much less than the likely-hood of the need for a noble thief type Hero (ie. Robin Hood) and all the other potential Birgitte lives, including peasants, ladies, saviors, etc.


Also, Heroes aren't perfect and are allowed to do horrible things, but people who do horrible things aren't worthy to be Heroes.

Lol. People who do horrible things won't BECOME Heroes.

Heroes may have to do horrible things ONCE THEY ARE ALREADY Heroes. but sometimes it's the Pattern's will.

Two different things.

morat'corlm
02-01-2011, 03:50 AM
Everyone is reborn once per turning of the Wheel. Except Heroes.Says who?

Zombie Sammael
02-01-2011, 04:27 AM
Says who?

This is a good point. I don't think it's right to assume that someone like LTT/Rand only gets two lives every turning of the wheel, where he has to go through a hell of a lot and seal the DO. I think it's possible that heroes who are important in one age could be reborn as perfectly normal individuals in another. It's just that if he's reborn in the second or third age he will be the Dragon and have some important things to do. For example.

GonzoTheGreat
02-01-2011, 04:30 AM
Heroes may have to do horrible things ONCE THEY ARE ALREADY Heroes. but sometimes it's the Pattern's will.So how do you know that Guaire Amalasan was not already a Hero long before the Third Age started?

Terez
02-01-2011, 03:32 PM
See, Sodas? It only makes sense to you.

FelixPax
02-02-2011, 12:30 AM
Ah, I remember now. It was:

1. Why would Logain/Guaire be born again after only 1000 years? He's not a Hero. (Implying that only Heroes are born more than once in an Age, which you made up completely.)

How can one claim Logain is "not a Hero"? Evidence for that position is what?


Ishamael once claimed to Rand, that he manipulated Artur Hawkwing. Why would Ishamael not seek to do the exact same thing with Guaire too?



Separately, why was Logain at least twice called the "Unbeliever" by each Morgase, Elaida in Caemlyn?

Terez
02-02-2011, 01:16 AM
How can one claim Logain is "not a Hero"? Evidence for that position is what?
Less than there is to suggest that he is one. I wonder how he gets along with Rand Therin and Hawkwing in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Ishamael once claimed to Rand, that he manipulated Artur Hawkwing. Why would Ishamael not seek to do the exact same thing with Guaire too? I don't think he was out yet. He didn't show up for sure until 30 years after Amalasan was defeated.

Separately, why was Logain at least twice called the "Unbeliever" by each Morgase, Elaida in Caemlyn?Because he pretended to be the Dragon, I suppose. It's a bit of a TEOTWism, but I think the implication is that they're all supposed to be waiting for the real Dragon, who of course will be introduced to the world in all his radiance by the White Tower, and therefore others need not apply.

In Egwene's Accepted test, the words of the sentencing for Rand's gentling included 'abandoned of the Light' or some such, and Egwene probably did learn that in her novice studies, limited though they were. Because Reds have to teach novices too.

Edit: Ah, here we go:

TDR22 - The Price of the Ring

This man, abandoned of the Light, has touched saidin, the male half of the True Source. Thus do we hold him. Most abominably has this man channeled the One Power, knowing that saidin is tainted by the Dark One, tainted for men's pride, tainted for men's sin. Thus do we chain him.

Sodas
02-02-2011, 02:12 AM
So how do you know that Guaire Amalasan was not already a Hero long before the Third Age started?

Because even if they do the wrong thing, ala Hawkwing, in every life they are bound to still be that Heroic soul that wants to do well. Hawkwing did well, for the most part, but wasn't perfect. They are still human after all.

All we know about Amalasan is that he was the reverse. Out for his own glory and being used by the White Tower and the Dark. Those are not Heroic intentions.


.... on the topic of Logain being a Hero ....

It's possible. Min may be right that he will have glory, but that doesn't mean he will become a Hero of the Horn.

Terez
02-02-2011, 03:08 AM
Because even if they do the wrong thing, ala Hawkwing, in every life they are bound to still be that Heroic soul that wants to do well. Hawkwing did well, for the most part, but wasn't perfect. They are still human after all.

Amalasan believed that he was the Dragon Reborn, presumably. Most false Dragons do. That's why he had the Stone of Tear under siege, and that's why Logain was headed for Tear when he got captured. It's incredibly heroic to want to save the world from the Dark One. Also, there's actually nothing to indicate that he was used by the White Tower other than Ishamael's claim that all of the false Dragons were.

Juan
02-02-2011, 11:11 PM
It seems the core of the argument behind Logain being Guaire is "why couldn't/wouldn't he be?"

Two can play that game.

Why and how could/would he be?

Whatever I answer as reasons to why he isn't, you'll simply go back to that question and say there's no hard proof disproving or eliminating the possibility that Logain is Guaire.

And so when you answer as reasons to why he is, I'll simply go back to my question and say there's no hard proof disproving or eliminating the possibility Logain isn't Guaire.

Also, the fact that Felix seems to agree with Terez:
FelixPax
How can one claim Logain is "not a Hero"? Evidence for that position is what?

That just inclines me to consider Terez's claim insane. I tease of course, Felix. :P

Terez
02-03-2011, 02:46 AM
It seems the core of the argument behind Logain being Guaire is "why couldn't/wouldn't he be?"

Two can play that game.
Yes dear, we know. :rolleyes:

FelixPax
02-03-2011, 04:37 AM
It seems the core of the argument behind Logain being Guaire is "why couldn't/wouldn't he be?"

Two can play that game.

Why and how could/would he be?


On the pro-Hero side of the equation, his name is similar to a 'Bramble', which is a thorny plant in the Rose family:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/da/Brambleberries.svg/500px-Brambleberries.svg.png

'Logan-berry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loganberry)'. ;)


Are many Heroes named after a family of plants?

Brambles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramble).

Morgase is a 'Rose'
Rand's a pointy 'Blackberry'
Moiraine favors 'sweetberry bush', a strawberry?
While Luca's a 'Thornbush', perhaps that's a rose?
Maybe Birgitte's prior name of Maerion is related a 'Marion-berry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marionberry)'?


It sure doesn't hurt that Elayne cares for Logain, as a person. She sought him out repeatedly, be it in Caemlyn, Tar Valon or Salidar.


A Lily among the Thorns?


Elayne (Lily) among the sharp elbows (Thorns) of Morgase, Rand, Logain, Moiraine, Luca, Melaine, Aviendha?


A quick internet search turned up a Biblical reference to of all things: Song of Solomon verse 2 (http://bible.cc/songs/2-2.htm).


Separately, Egwene al'Vere as Amyrlin Seat did give Logain a "promise". If Egwene's to keep her word, honor... as Logain has. Logain will come out of fine. A Hero to boot.

Laela
02-03-2011, 01:14 PM
On the pro-Hero side of the equation, his name is similar to a 'Bramble', which is a thorny plant in the Rose family:

I usually lurk, but this required some sort of response.

Simply amazing.

bgrishinko
02-03-2011, 05:24 PM
What does Valan Luca have to do with anything?

Oh...
Luc...
...heh, nevermind.

FelixPax
02-03-2011, 05:35 PM
I usually lurk, but this required some sort of response.

Simply amazing.

Far to many amazing leaps of logic? Symbolism?


Chuckles, well Jordan did seem to enjoy making a good living writing about an extended rose family. ;)



More (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/346137/loganberry) on a Loganberry:


Loganberry, (Rubus loganobaccus), bramble fruit of the family Rosaceae that originated in the United States, at Santa Cruz, Calif., in 1881. Raised from seed, it is thought to be a hybrid between the wild blackberry of the Pacific coast and the red raspberry. It is grown in large quantities in Oregon and Washington and also cultivated in England and Tasmania. The loganberry, or Logan, is a vigorous, nearly trailing, blackberry-like plant with compound leaves of three to five leaflets and prickly canes. Its deep, wine-red, tart, high-flavoured berries separate from the stem as do blackberries. The fruit is canned, frozen for preserve or pie stock, or made into wine.

Is it a surprise Logain would end up bonding a Red Ajah Aes Sedai? Or that Elayne would end up caring for Logain as an individual? It's all within the family, so to speak: symbolism--red raspberry, blackberry.


Whether that's right or wrong line of speculative thought (Logain, Loganberry), as a writer Robert Jordan did chose a grand word to use as a symbol: "Rose".


What an excellent word to build allusions, conceptual metaphors off of--as a part of speech. Let alone a rich literature, historical, political, botanical background to mine from: "Rose(s)".



A limited overview of 'Rose':

Oxford Dictionary online definitions:
rise(rise) (http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1285302?rskey=bBm12j&result=1#m_en_us1285302)
rose1(rose) (http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1285821?rskey=2T13RF&result=2#m_en_us1285821)
rosé(ro·sé) (http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1285823?rskey=2T13RF&result=5#m_en_us1285823)

Merriam-Webster's Third International, is quite extensive (print version).

Rose at Answer.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/rose)
Rose at Botanical.com (http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/r/roses-18.html)
Rose at Britannia.com (http://www.britannica.com/bps/search?query=Rose) (Very Extensive)

War of the Roses: a literature professor's concise overview (http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/war_of_roses.html); Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_of_the_Roses) version ; a popular culture movie release circa 1989 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098621/)


Sidenote: Red Dragon, White Boar were on opposite sides, during the English 'War of the Roses' historically speaking. In terms of the Wheel of Time symbolism, this opposition is similar: Dragon is Rand, White Boar is Gawyn.


Tension? Yes, Wheel of Time is full of it.

Gawyn's (White Boar) is in a tough position, who to follow?

An Oath given to his sister Elayne and mother Morgase? Or a bond of love given to Egwene al'Vere? A loyally to a Warder bond? To fight or join his brother Galad? Or seek a compromise?

FelixPax
02-03-2011, 05:42 PM
What does Valan Luca have to do with anything?

Oh...
Luc...
...heh, nevermind.

He's part of the Roses. Rose Family.

Luca is utterly KEY to the final volume of the Wheel of Time. I'll explain why a future theory posting: 'Easing the Badger'. :D

bgrishinko
02-03-2011, 05:58 PM
He's part of the Roses. Rose Family.

Luca is utterly KEY to the final volume of the Wheel of Time. I'll explain why a future theory posting: 'Easing the Badger'. :D

Let me guess...

Nyneave bonds him out of pity (after all, he did have the hots for her) and to fill the void effectively "easing her" when Lan bites the dust reclaiming Malkier.

The Immortal One
02-04-2011, 02:08 AM
What does Valan Luca have to do with anything?

He wears a cape. Obviously he's a HERO.



As to the reasons why Guaire might be a Hero of the Horn. The biggest indicator is that he, along with Hawkwing, had a huge influence on the Pattern for the last thousand years.

And just because Hawkwing was a Hero and he fought against Guaire doesn't automatically disqualify Guaire from being a Hero himself. Perhaps the Pattern needed Guaire to be a foil to Hawkwing; forcing him to become the greatest general and tactician in a thousand years so that even with Ishamael's influence Hawkwing could still do as the Pattern needed him to.

Another reason Guaire isn't disqualified from being a Hero is Ishamael. Despite Ishamael being a Servant of the Dark, a Forsaken, and the fact that RJ was sarcastic about us believing him, most people seem to believe that he is a Hero - continually reborn as the counter to the Dragon. If you believe that; that Ishamael is a Hero and can still face the Dragon; then surely you can believe that Guaire can be a Hero while still fighting against Hawkwing.

Another example of this is when the Horn was blown in the Great Hunt, when Hawkwing talks to Rand he says (paraphrased) "I have fought beside you times beyond number, and fought against you as often". If the Dragon can fight against Hawkwing 'times beyond number' and still be a Hero, then surely Guaire might be too. (And I dare you to find substantial proof that the Dragon isn't a Hero).

Sodas
02-04-2011, 10:49 PM
Amalasan believed that he was the Dragon Reborn, presumably. Most false Dragons do.

They are delusional then. They failed to meet the first prophecy, being born upon the slopes of Dragonmount.

Taim shrugged. “What are my choices? To wander the world alone, friendless, hunted, while you rise to glory? That’s supposing Bashere doesn’t manage to kill me before I can leave the city, or your Aiel women don’t. Even if they don’t, the Aes Sedai will corner me sooner or later; I doubt the Tower means to forget Mazrim Taim. Or I can follow you, and part of that glory will be mine.” For the first time he looked around, at his guards, at the Maidens, and shook his head as if he could not believe it. “I might have been the one. How could I be sure otherwise? I can channel; I’m strong. What said I was not the Dragon Reborn? All I had to do was fulfill just one of the Prophecies.”

“Like managing to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount?” Rand said coldly. “That was the first Prophecy to be met.”

Taim’s mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile; it never touched his eyes. “Victors write history. Had I taken the Stone of Tear, history would have shown I was born on Dragonmount, of a woman never touched by a man, and the heavens opened up in radiance to herald my coming. The sort of thing they say about you, now. But you took the Stone with your Aiel, and the world hails you as the Dragon Reborn. I know better than to stand against that; you are the one. Well, since the whole loaf won’t be mine, I will settle for whatever slices fall my way.”

The False Dragons clearly ignored the first prophecies, but still continued to seek out Callandor. So they aren't heroic, they are megalomaniacs willfully deluding themselves into believing they could be the Dragon.

So what you call an incredibly heroic act, I call foolish and dangerous to the Pattern.

It's incredibly heroic to want to save the world from the Dark One.

Sweet deal. I guess your version of the Heroes of the Horn is just as selective as the Burger King Kids Club.

LinearA
02-05-2011, 12:11 AM
Not all prophecy is literal thou and more likely most of them dont know the prophecys anyway.

Also sodas, theres nothing to suggest logain isnt already a hero of the horn either - refering from ur earlier post

The Immortal One
02-05-2011, 12:18 AM
They are delusional then. They failed to meet the first prophecy, being born upon the slopes of Dragonmount.

Rand doesn't personally remember where he was born either. Perhaps the False Dragons were orphans and nobody knew where exactly they were born, or perhaps their parents lied to them, especially if they knew their son could channel.

So they aren't heroic, they are megalomaniacs willfully deluding themselves into believing they could be the Dragon.

So what you call an incredibly heroic act, I call foolish and dangerous to the Pattern.

But that is the point. Heroes of the Horn don't necessarily do anything Heroic. They just have to do something with a massive influence on the Pattern.

Once again, you could look at Hawkwing. Read what Elyas says about him to Perrin and Egwene in the Stedding in The Eye of the World. Hawkwing may have conquered an empire, but he was almost certainly a tyrant who slaughtered anyone who stood against him, or had a different opinion - like the Aes Sedai (though that may have been entirely Ishamael's influence). He may have killed an 'evil' False Dragon, but he didn't stop his conquest, he went right on slaughtering people. He's a Hero because he had a massive influence on the Pattern and people told legends about him - like some people do about False Dragons.

Sweet deal. I guess your version of the Heroes of the Horn is just as selective as the Burger King Kids Club.

Well, no. It's the membership status for an internet forum. (sarcasm!)

Terez
02-05-2011, 12:52 AM
Aye, and not very selective at that (obviously).

subwoofer
02-06-2011, 08:04 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.

Prove me wrong.

How about prove yourself right? Min sees Logain's glory and stuff but there is no mention of past souls or another head floating over him or anything like what Rand had with LTT. I think that would have jumped out at Min and us if she even saw anything remotely like that.

er... and the whole hero tied to the horn thing...

Kimon
02-06-2011, 09:52 AM
How about prove yourself right? Min sees Logain's glory and stuff but there is no mention of past souls or another head floating over him or anything like what Rand had with LTT. I think that would have jumped out at Min and us if she even saw anything remotely like that.

er... and the whole hero tied to the horn thing...

The problem with arguing on the basis of a lack of verification specifically from Min and her viewings is that you then run into the problem of Mat and Perrin. She hasn't seen anything that specifically and unequivically ties them to the Horn, and yet it seems quite clear that they are Heroes. Min sees the future, not the past, let alone past lives. Think for instance of Dashiva. She never saw anything useful around him, yet he was Aginor.

Terez
02-06-2011, 04:43 PM
How about prove yourself right?
How about you go out and find yourself a sense of humor?

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2011, 04:19 AM
How about you go out and find yourself a sense of humor?There's already far too much of that around, isn't there?

Terez
02-07-2011, 04:23 AM
Are you starting to believe Sini's lies too now?

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2011, 04:44 AM
He told me he was telling the truth. Are you saying I shouldn't believe him?

Seeker
02-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Logain is Guaire Amalasan reborn. Not only that, but he has past life memories like Rand, and he still thinks that he's the real Dragon Reborn. Next time he sees Rand he's going to ask him for his sword back.

Prove me wrong.

I've always felt that Guaire Amalasan is one of Rand's past lives. I also think Rand knows it (which is why he fixates on the sword) though whether or not he remembers being Guaire with the same clarity as he remembers being Lews Therin remains to be seen. We don't know if Rand has retained full memories of all his past lives or just Lews Therin.

A couple things that make me think this

"Your objection is noted," Rand said. He took the sa'angreal from Min then slid it over his shoulder into a sheath on his back. At his side. he once again wore the ancient sword with the red and gold dragons painted on the sheath. He'd said it represented the past to him and Callandor - somehow - the future.

Well, it's Guaire Amalasan's sword. And it represents the past to Rand. That wouldn't make much sense unless it represented RAND'S past.

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's gauntleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more.

Ominous much?

I think Rand is Guaire Amalasan. And I think that while he was Guaire Amalasan, he had Lews Therin in his head then too.

1Powerslave
02-09-2011, 03:13 PM
Rand Al'thor, the Dragon Reborn Reborn...

subwoofer
02-12-2011, 07:55 PM
How about you go out and find yourself a sense of humor?

Sense of humor? Who, me? Are you kidding? ;)

GonzoTheGreat
02-13-2011, 04:03 AM
Rand Al'thor, the Dragon Reborn Reborn...Are you sure that shouldn't be "the Reborn Dragon Reborn"?
Edited to add: maybe someone should ask BS about this. He'll probably declare that a MAFO.

Terez
02-13-2011, 04:55 AM
Sense of humor? Who, me? Are you kidding? ;)
I know, right? I was actually amazed to see you being serious for once...at the wrong time, no less.

Terez
02-13-2011, 04:59 AM
I've always felt that Guaire Amalasan is one of Rand's past lives.
We have too many good reasons to think that Rand has not been reborn since Lews Therin.

Well, it's Guaire Amalasan's sword. And it represents the past to Rand. That wouldn't make much sense unless it represented RAND'S past.It does - his past at Falme, which was a rather major event for him, and the beginning of the end for Rand as we knew him. He thinks of that time in his only POV of the book:

He breathed in deeply, peaceful. Here, in his dreams, the hills grew green. As he remembered them. In that nameless valley below, sheltered in the Mountains of Mist, he'd begun a journey. Not his first, and not his last, but perhaps the most important. One of the most painful, for certain.

"And now I come back," he whispered. "I've changed again. A man is always changing."

He felt a unity in returning here, to the place where he'd first confronted the killer inside him. The place where he'd first tried to flee from those whom he should have kept near. He closed his eyes, enjoying tranquility. Calmness. Harmony.
And of course, he left Moiraine and Co to go after Callandor.

Seeker
02-13-2011, 07:22 PM
We have too many good reasons to think that Rand has not been reborn since Lews Therin.

Could you explain these reasons to me. I can't think of any.

Also, why would a sword - that so far as I can tell was dug up in Arad Domon - represent Falme to Rand? What's the connection there?

Terez
02-13-2011, 07:39 PM
Could you explain these reasons to me. I can't think of any.
1. Because the Heroes referred to him as Lews Therin, indicating that he was Lews Therin when he was hanging out with them in TAR.

2. Because Rand has memories of Lews Therin, and not Guaire Amalasan.

3. Because it would be silly for the real Dragon to be reborn as a false Dragon.

4. Because the personality descriptions don't match at all, really, but that's an ancillary point. The others are more telling.

Also, why would a sword - that so far as I can tell was dug up in Arad Domon - represent Falme to Rand? What's the connection there?
Because Rand saw it at Falme, in Hawkwing's hands.

Seeker
02-14-2011, 10:58 AM
1. Because the Heroes referred to him as Lews Therin, indicating that he was Lews Therin when he was hanging out with them in TAR.

Unless, as I suspect, a character does not have a unique facade in Tel'Aran'Rhiod and can appear as any of his former incarnations. You see, the notion that a dead Hero appears as his most recent incarnation is purely fan speculation. We don't know because the subject isn't addressed in the books.

The heroes could refer to Rand as 'Lews Therin' for any number of reasons. Perhaps because it was his most famous incarnation. Perhaps because it was the guise he wore most often. Perhaps because he was so racked with guilt that he couldn't put that life behind him. (And maybe that's why Lews Therin's memories bubble up inside Rand).

I'm not saying that any one of these things is the answer, only that we lack enough information to say for certain.

2. Because Rand has memories of Lews Therin, and not Guaire Amalasan.

Again, this assumes that memories from individual lifetimes are stacked in some kind of linear fashion. We just don't know.

Even using your barrier theory, if the barrier is not so much a wall but a shell around Rand's mind with memories pressing on it from all sides, then where the shell gets cracked determines which lifetime seeps through.


3. Because it would be silly for the real Dragon to be reborn as a false Dragon.

I do not believe that Rand is the Chosen One every single time he is spun into the Pattern. I believe he is always a Hero, and often an influential character, but not always the man on which the fate of the world balances.

That said, why shouldn't he have a few ordinary (by Hero standards) lives in the Third Age?


4. Because the personality descriptions don't match at all, really, but that's an ancillary point. The others are more telling.

I don't recall any descriptions of Guaire Amalasan's personality, only the events he set in motion.

All of your objections are based on suppositions and fan speculation.

All of my counters to them are equally based on suppositions. I'm not asking you or anyone else to accept my interpretation. I'm only pointing out that we don't have enough information to determine whether or not Rand is Guaire Amalasan.

The thing that makes me think so is the amount of fascination he has with Guaire Amalasan's sword. comes right out of the books. It doesn't prove anything, it just strikes me on a gut level.


Because Rand saw it at Falme, in Hawkwing's hands.[/QUOTE]

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2011, 11:40 AM
Unless, as I suspect, a character does not have a unique facade in Tel'Aran'Rhiod and can appear as any of his former incarnations. You see, the notion that a dead Hero appears as his most recent incarnation is purely fan speculation. We don't know because the subject isn't addressed in the books.Actually, we do have some reason to assume that it is not true at all.
I don't think there is precise evidence telling us what name Birgitte used in her last incarnation, but it does not seem likely that it actually was Birgitte.
Rogosh Eagle-eye, a fatherly looking man with white hair and eyes so sharp as to make his name merely a hint. Gaidal Cain, a swarthy man with the hilts of his two swords sticking above his broad shoulders. Golden-haired Birgitte, with her gleaming silver bow and quiver bristling with silver arrows. More. He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.This suggests that the name which seems "natural" is the one by which they are known at that particular point in the turning of the Wheel.

So in the Third Age, the Dragon would be known as Lews Therin, as that is the name by which he is known best by far.

kasper11
02-14-2011, 01:57 PM
Personally, I think Logain is Beidomon reborn. Rand will defeat the DO, but it will be Logain who will remember how the bore was originally sealed (before he drilled into it) and will be the one to reseal it.

Seeker
02-14-2011, 04:06 PM
Actually, we do have some reason to assume that it is not true at all.
I don't think there is precise evidence telling us what name Birgitte used in her last incarnation, but it does not seem likely that it actually was Birgitte.

Okay, the statement you're trying to prove is "While in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, all Heroes appear in the guise of their most recent incarnation."

First of all

a) You can't provide evidence that Birgitte Silverbow is the most recent incarnation of the character we now know as Birgitte Trehalion.

b) You can't provide evidence that while she was in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, she wore the face of Birgitte Silverbow all the time.

c) Even if you could, you will have only demonstrated that ONE Hero wears the guise of her most recent incarnation. That is by no means enough evidence to claim that they all do.



This suggests that the name which seems "natural" is the one by which they are known at that particular point in the turning of the Wheel.

Yes, but I think you should read that again. Because it's very clear - to my eyes at least - that Rand is being granted access to information that cannot have come from his living memory. Is this a phenomenon that all characters experience? (For instance, does Ingtar hear a hundred names to match each face? Or only Rand?). Because if it's only Rand who hears all these names, then it's very clear that Rand is being given access to knowledge that comes not from a past life but from his time between lives in Tel'Aran'Rhiod.

And again, why would he recognize hundreds of names for each Hero?

Well, either he's remembering a WHOLE LOT of Tel'Aran'Rhiod (at least a Great Cycle's worth) or it's because Heroes don't always wear the same faces in Tel'Aran'Rhiod. They shift from one incarnation to the next, probably as easily as dreamers shift their clothing.


So in the Third Age, the Dragon would be known as Lews Therin, as that is the name by which he is known best by far.

Yes, but no where does it say that his most famous incarnation has to be his most recent incarnation. Don't ignore the possibility that Rand might live a life that was influential but in which he was not very well known.

He might have been the Captain of a squad of Infinity that valiantly gave their lives in the Trolloc Wars. There's something very unheroic about assuming that the Heroes always have to be famous people.

The Immortal One
02-14-2011, 11:53 PM
Okay, the statement you're trying to prove is "While in Tel'Aran'Rhiod, all Heroes appear in the guise of their most recent incarnation."

First of all

a) You can't provide evidence that Birgitte Silverbow is the most recent incarnation of the character we now know as Birgitte Trehalion.

Maybe you should re-read what Gonzo actually said.

I don't think there is precise evidence telling us what name Birgitte used in her last incarnation, but it does not seem likely that it actually was Birgitte.

You spent your whole post bashing what Gonzo said but it seems to me that Gonzo is on your side. Except that he seems a little uncertain - probably due to your lack of evidence.


And I think I might be too. It seems likely that Hawkwing calling Rand 'Lews Therin' is necessary for the Pattern - to help convince Rand who he really is. Calling him by some other name (most recent incarnation or not) would simply muddy the issue and (at that time) cause him even more mental problems.

Seeker
02-15-2011, 10:56 AM
My apologies.

Although I wouldn't say that I was bashing him.

Cor Shan
02-16-2011, 11:22 PM
Do we know if the horn is broken and remade every cycle or if its immortal

Terez
02-16-2011, 11:55 PM
We do know that it is sometimes remade, but we don't know if that is done with any sort of regularity.