The Dark Knight **SPOILERS**

[JSUCamel]

Best movie I've seen in a long time. Far better than Batman Begins.

Rachel Dawes is played by a different actress. Blech.

All in all, awesome movie. Heath Ledger kicked total ass as Joker. Brilliant performance.

[Sinistrum]

Uh it's not a spoiler Camel. She figured it out at the end of Batman Begins. :p

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Apparently he slept through the end of Begins.

[JSUCamel]

hmm. maybe.

i hated Begins, so..

[RogueSavior]

This movie's rendered me speechless. I literally cannot find words in the appropriate descriptive range.

Masterpiece isn't doing it for me, and it wasn't quite perfect...

What's in that range?

[RogueSavior]

Ok. So... I've now seen it twice inside 20 hours, and... It's still outfuckingstanding.

Maggie Gyllenhaal's death was the only thing she contributed to the film - I don't recall what Katie Holmes' deal was, but if every show on opening day is sold out in THIS shitsty town, she was definitely affordable if that was the issue. Gyllenhaal is just creepy looking. Definitely not a harem candidate.

Aaron Eckhart was a perfect casting for the role of Harvey Dent - what was he in before Thank You for Smoking? He's been awesome in both movies I've seen him in. Nolan's portrayal of Two-Face post-burn is so much better than what they did to Tommy Lee Jones, it's not on the same scale of measurement. Eckhart did nearly as good a job with Harvey Dent as the film's true power-performer.

Heath Ledger's Joker is Perfect. Note the capital P. Jack Nicholson's Joker (ok - the comparisons between the old movies are inevitable. And both characters' old representations are obliterated by the new) and his mad cackling are inadequate when judged against Ledger's. Completely. Everything in this portrayal - from the humor the Joker finds in everything, particularly crime, to turning everything into a game with people as the pawns - it's perfect. The subdued giggling instead of the lunacy is spot-on. And the 'Magic Trick'? The whole theater erupted with a combined wince and laughter. Ladies and Gentlemen - your Best Supporting Actor, Heath Ledger. Nobody else so far has even been CLOSE, and the bar's been set very high for the rest of the year.

Hell, the argument could be made that he's a lead character, and he may win in that category, instead. Also - 'Tryouts' make me think of something only the Joker could or would pull. Like Alfred says - Some people only want to see the world burn.

Bale continues to prove himself the best batman of any film, and proves his ample acting chops - the man looks DEVASTATED by Rachel's death. Sad is said to be easy, but he made me want to give him a hug, sharp edged armor and all. It's his roles in movies like The Prestige, Batman Begins, Dark Knight, even Empire of the Rising Sun (? where he's a little British kid in a Japanese Internment Camp in China during WW2... awesome) that keep him from being Keanu Reeves. He actually acts, whereas Keanu just says the lines and punches the right people (except in Constantine - that movie he seemed to do a much better job... lessons maybe?).

Were this my blog, I'd have to give Dark Knight a ridiculously High Score - because it is better than Wanted.

Minor nitpicks I'd make - I liked the courtroom acid delivery as the last straw into turning Harvey Dent into Two Face, and I really liked Loeb and Sale's portrayal of Dent's descent, briefly capitulated in the scene where he's beating the schizo into talking about the Joker.

100 of 100. Best Movie since.... God, I don't even know. Snatch? Blade Runner? Lucky Number Slevin? I'm trying to think of something to compare, but nothing's springing to mind.

Far and away the greatest Comic Book/Graphic Novel movie ever made. Bar none.

[Sinistrum]

Yeah I had one reaction after I finished watching it. "Woah."

[Birgitte]

Yeah. And I just looked over at him and said, "That about sums it up."

That was awesome... And they put in so many little touches that were outstanding. The appearance of the Scarecrow, mentioning that the Batsuit would be good against cats, Joker's changing story of how he got his scars, etc... It was just great.

[ShadowbaneX]

I was damn impressed with the movie as it seemed much different then the typical movie. It was bloody great.

I'm not sure how much of a spoiler this is, but did anyone else notice the humming/static (I can't really find a good word for it) whenever the Joker was on the screen? In many cases it was the only thing to be heard, just this slowly building maddening hum. I thought it was rather neat.

[Sinistrum]

Yeah SBX I noticed that, particularly when he was feeding people one of his stories about the scars. It was a great tension building device for the movie and really helped set the creepy ton for the character. Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard did another bang up job on the soundtrack, just like the last one.

[ShadowbaneX]

I noticed it when it first started and every other time it happened. After the movie I asked my friends and they couldn't remember hearing anything.

The thing is in this movie with Ledger dead and seemingly Two-Face dead as well, what do they do next? Bring in Harley Quinn looking to avenge the Boss? Poison Ivy seems a little tame after the Joker. The Riddler? Penguin? Mr. Freeze? Bane? Corny, lame, lamer, dumb. Catwoman? Meh doesn't really seem to be equal to the task.

I suppose they could somehow try the resurrection and go after Two-Face again, but then again, I just don't see much else to be done.

Also, I know completely understand this comic (http://www.applegeeks.com/lite/strips/aglite330.jpg)

[Sinistrum]

Well it never really resolved whether Dent was dead or not. It just showed Gordon paying tribute to him. They could always re-caste someone as the Joker. I remember talk in another thread of someone else being considered for the part already but I don't remember who it was. Or perhaps go in a new direction entirely.

The didn't entirely develop the league of assassins so perhaps they could use them as survivors of Ra's al Ghul, or perhaps Clayface. The direction I'd love to see them take is one of the lesser known Batman villains, Deadshot. A Gotham showdown between him and Batman could lead to some serious mayhem.

[RogueSavior]

I'm thinking Poison Ivy, The Riddler, Penguin, and Catwoman all at once. I forgot what Seal and I were talking about, but that seems to be an ensemble to create a great plot involving Batman's temptation vs. his duty in the aftermath of *SPOILER* Rachel's death */SPOILER*

Seems a possiblity.

[Hopper]

Saw Batman on Friday. And here I thought that Iron Man was going to be the best movie of the year. If I hadn't known who played the Joker, I'd have NEVER guessed. Heath Leger was phenomenal. I don't see how they're going to replace him.

Considering the age they have Jim Gordan's daughter, I don't see a Batgirl coming into the series any time soon either.

One of the things I really like about this Batman series is that there are no "super powers". I'd think that would leave Poison Ivy, Mister Freeze, and possibly Bane out of contention as future villains.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I haven't ever seen a movie I with which I had no problems with the writing. At least, not since I became a writer.


None.


This was polished, professional, and absolutely wonderful. There wasn't a sense of, "Fuck it, this is a comic book movie, who gives a shit what the dialogue sounds like." It was, unlike most comic book movies, a professional effort. I can't recall a single line that fell flat, despite the actor's best efforts. (And yes, even in Ironman and the first X-Men, there were a few.)

And yes, for most comic book movies, I can write better dialogue in my sleep and dialogue happens to be my biggest weakness as a writer (ok, other than names). I'm fairly certain RS could write better dialogue than that found in most comic book movies. ;)

[Tamyrlin]

It was an excellent movie. I would liked to have seen more of the Joker, but overall it was done well. I'm curious whether or not Nolan and his brother will be able to write a good female character into the movie. So far, both Rachel characters have come across like unimportant side shows. Even in this movie, where two main characters fell in love with her...I just didn't feel the love between any of them. I thought that portion of the film was the weakest. I would rather have seen the entire movie devoted to the first struggle between Batman and the Joker.

Gil - I could have sworn I heard two lines fall flat. I'm going to see it again on Wednesday, this time in iMax, so I will track them down.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The problem with the women in Batman is that other than Catwoman, all of them WERE flat and 2D. Even Poison Ivy was monosyllabic.

OK, Tam, TWO LINES in a three hour movie. As opposed to say... all of the last 3 previous Batman movies before Begins. Pretty damned good odds. Also, I'm not entirely sure they weren't supposed to fall flat, a discordant note in a symphony for dramatic effect, say, rather than a failure of writing.

[Tamyrlin]

The two spots I noticed...did seem forced, so I could believe they were used as you described. My favorite line of the year will be "you complete me" by Ledger - that was beautiful.

About the women, I'm sure that's true (not much of a comic guy)...but I would have preferred that Nolan and his brother wouldn't have stayed true to that obvious deficiency when transporting a comic to a real life drama.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I'm just saying they didn't have much to work with in an already heavy-weight cast. I'm not sure there was a great deal for Gyllenhaal's Rachel to do when stacked against that particular Joker and Batman duo.

I'm all for a strong female characters, but Batman's never had room for one other than Catwoman and Batgirl. The Dark Knight is larger than life and leaves little room for a woman to be anything other than rival or partner.

And yes, "You complete me," was just wonderful.

[Tamyrlin]

So maybe I am a callous sob. But why include the Dent story, if from a writing perspective, you weren't going to make it really...matter. Dent's transformation should have required an infatuation so great and maybe even something other than love, to send him over the edge...at least, to me.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Because Dent was already headed in that direction. The problem was, Dent wasn't the saint Bruce Wayne/Batman were making him out to be.

The true irony is that Rachel Dawes was the hero they were both talking about Gotham needing.

[Tamyrlin]

No matter what people say about him in the movie, so I appreciate that about Dent's portrayal...but I guess it just comes back, for me, to Nolan and his brother trying to cover a little bit too much with the script.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I disagree. Harvey Dent was an inevitable outcome to the Joker's and Batman's struggle. He was a victim caught in the crossfire. I think the Joker just ended up fastforwarding Dent's downfall. He was a fatally flawed character from the beginning and was the type of man that would be corrupted over time anyway. If usually in the more prosaic sense of making Faustian deals with the mob, rather than becoming a psychopath due to a shattered heart and ruined body.

[Ivhon]

I was very very impressed. Very impressed.

And...nothing can beat Batman at the Drafthouse (I had a Sloppy Joker which I wore home). 45 minutes of old tv show clips at the beginning. Brilliant film. Good eats.

Wonderful day yesterday.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

We went to Houston's Drafthouse.


I don't think I could ever buy a Growler, though. *shudder*

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Reposting Tam's and my debate here. I hope someone can help Tam be convinced 'cause he's just too darned stubborn. Handles have been changed to prevent stalking. ;)

Gilshalos: I liked Dent's transformation. I do think it was well done. I replied to you.

Tamyrlin: I think without knowing the comic book side at all, there wasn't enough done to make Dent's transformation real to the viewer

Gilshalos: I think they did enough. And I don't know the comic book side except third hand through Bryan.

Tamyrlin: I'm not sure what they did, beyond killing Rachel. I guess turning into a killer and almost a child killer...feels like it needs more psychosis than the loss of someone you love...but maybe what I imagine is the threshold is higher than it is

Gilshalos: It was the loss of his love and his ruined body. On an already unstable mind.

Tamyrlin: you felt he was unstable already?

Gilshalos Sedai: He flipped a fucking coin in court. Two headed or not, that's a bit ... nuts.

Tamyrlin: Once you realized it was two-headed...it didn't come across as nuts, corny maybe, predictable; a funny trick

Gilshalos: No, it's still nuts. Because the action remains the same, no matter how the odds were stacked.

Tamyrlin: It felt like a "jock" stunt trying to be cavalier. I'll have to go back and watch when he does that

Gilshalos: And he wasn't trying to be "cavalier," he was. I replied to you in the thread.

Tamyrlin: cavalier to killer...I guess it is possible in Gotham

Gilshalos: SP and I decided the deal with it was, it was supposed to make the viewer uncomfortable. And that may be your problem with it. You're supposed to feel uncomfortable at the very least when a good man goes horribly terribly bad. And I think this movie captured that. You're not supposed to be able to be cavalier about it.

Tamyrlin:that could be it. I'm not saying they did a horrible job of it, much more believable than Episode 3

Gilshalos: Dent was supposed to make you wince and flinch and question. He was the micro version of those people in the ferries.

Tamyrlin: yeah - but those people, even without the knowledge didn't pull the trigger...but I know what you mean

Gilshalos: Not to get too policital, but what the Patriot Act could make us become.

Tamyrlin: the real issue for me is not Dent's deformity, I get him being pissed enough to go after some people (kill their children? not so much). but his relationship/infatuation with Rachel...it was just poorly portrayed to me

Gilshalos: He ultimately blamed Gordon for his fiancee's death. His family.

Tamyrlin: ...sure but killing Gordon's kid?

Gilshalos: if he was really serious about it, he would have done it without all the posturing.

Tamyrlin: I would agree with that...if it weren't for the fact that he killed the other cop - Nolan took him to murder already...so while they played that out...it felt like he had already gone over the edge

Gilshalos: But as you've pointed out, killing an adult is much different from killing a child.

theorylandgod: agreed - but once you kill the first guy that was responsible...it just seemed like he would have killed the next guy...the whole family thing...felt forced from a plot perspective as a set up for the next movie... "blame me" and all that jazz at the end with Batman

Gilshalos Sedai: Now I think you're reaching. However, I thought they'd save stopping Harvey for the next movie. But, I disagree with your thinking it felt forced.

Tamyrlin: so in your mind Dent was momentarily insane, insane, psychotic, or other?

Gilshalos: He became a sociopath. He stopped caring. He was nothing but his pain.

Tamyrlin: I thought becoming a sociopath, was less of something that changes within five days (but I don't have a lot of experience with mental health issues), but I can see the stop caring thing happen

Gilshalos: And like Alfred said, some men just want to see the world burn. Dent became one of those men.

Tamyrlin: I woudl have liked to have seen more of his sociopathic tendencies to make that believable to me as a viewer, before Rachel is killed

Gilshalos: Um.. beating up the scizophreic in an alley wasn't proof of that?

Tamyrlin: not really - if I had seen my wife's name on the tag and I was led to believe that she was next on the list of some maniac that had already killed a variety of people he said he was going to kill, I might have taken that truck and beat the shit out of him to get him to talk; threatened him for sure with a weapon, definitely. That didn't come across as lacking a sense of conscience or morality

Gilshalos: He's the DA, he needed to be better than that. As Batman pointed out. He doesn't get to go on personal vendettas.

Tamyrlin: personal vendetta? see, that was one of the moments where his infatuation/love for Rachel actually did come across as something more, something deeper...(which helps the counter argument to my own)

Gilshalos: Yes.

Tamyrlin: I would have liked to have seen him kill the guy unknown to anyone in an alley

Gilshalos: I think it was eveolved enough. he was a supporting character, after all.

Tamyrlin: ratcheting it up, from hitting him, taking it too far

Gilshalos: Yes, but then Batman couldn't have held him up as a white knight.

Tamyrlin: sure - it would have to be unknown to anyone, even Batman that would have made the transition more believable to me

Gilshalos: I don't agree.

Tamyrlin: going to far, stepping over the edge, but unable to mention it, out of fear, and then having his fiancee killed anyway, yeah to me, that would have worked

Gilshalos: Because then there wouldn't BE a transition. There wouldn't be a fall. He'd already BE a villain. There would not be a "path to hell paved with good intentions" line.

Tamyrlin: actually - that is the path - there wasn't any path he went from good intentions to bad ones in an instant

Gilshalos: Because, as I said in my post, the Joker fast forwarded his corruption.

Tamyrlin: that doesn't work for me - there had to have been some corruption already working in him in the end, the Joker was at fault he would have shot the Joker, any of us would have, following the path written as it is; instead - hours later he shoots some low level cop that was driving his car on behalf of the Joker? However - if he saw himself as already corrupted, already more like the Joker than he wants to admit, the whole hospital scene works better for me

Gilshalos: He was working his way up to the Joker. He didn't have an opportunity previously. But ultimately, he blamed Gordon.

Tamyrlin: The joker sets the gun against his head? The joker set up the barrels - the "joke" if you will that killed Rachel

Gilshalos Sedai: I keep saying he was already halfway corrupt, that the Joker only fast forwarded him the rest of the way. He idolized a vigilante, for cripes sake, Tam. And yes, that is a Bad Thing for a DA.

Tamyrlin: it's interesting - I think most people would idolize Batman

Gilshalos: But, to the point where he didn't mind if people THOUGHT HE WAS HIM? Dent wanted to be a vigilante. He admired Batman for doing what he could not.

Tamyrlin: there is another point - if they didn't have Batman and Dent working together that would have been a nice way to show his creeping madness; see - take Batman out of the skitzo scene and never have them actually meet and talk

Gilshalos: But then you wouldn't wonder who would go over the edge.

Tamyrlin: and I believe the Dent scenes at the end but Dent being cavalier enough to make that claim, with the whole Gordon is alive, and it looks like an elaborate scheme not some sociopath

Gilshalos: And how do you know the joker didn't set it up that way? We didnt' see the last part of their meeting

Tamyrlin: wait - what meeting are we talking about?

Gilshalos: In the hospital. It seemed to cut off rather abruptly and we don't see where Harvey is till he kills that cop in the bar.

Tamyrlin: I'm not sure how that addresses the previous point - Dent taking the fall as Batman looks to be something that Gordon, Batman, and Dent have engineered, or at the very least something Gordon and Dent have created as a way to capture the Joker. However - if Dent had done that on his own, and had beat the hell out of the skitzo on his own - his "halfway corruptness" I would believe

Gilshalos: Dent didn't know Gordon survived. Gordon's faked death, however, has batman's fingerprints all over it.

Tamyrlin: Do we know that Dent didn't know that?

Gilshalos Sedai: Gordon was setting himself for bait without Batman previously knowing about it. He says he didn't.

Tamyrlin: okay - so then take out Dent and Batman discussing taking the fall and Batman coming out, and have Dent say he is Batman. You don't think that would have helped?

Gilshalos: I think that would have been hitting the audience over the head with it and being pedantic.

Tamyrlin: or it woudl have fed into his gambling/cavalier persona

Gilshalos: I'm glad this movie left things for the viewer to figure out. I'm tired of movies that talk down to their audience.

Tamyrlin: that wouldn't have felt talked down to - it would have been within character for him to force Batman's hand like that

Gilshalos: Two Face gave in to the terrorist. He let the terrorist talk him into becoming something he had always fought against. Out of grief and out of pain.

Tamyrlin: this terrorist killed his fiancee and maimed him - if the guy had handed me a guy and put it to his head, and I was in that was grief and pain, I would have shot him and then gone after the cops or I would have shot him, and then called the cops; not shooting him...is dumb

Gilshalos: Ah yes, but he convinced him he wasn't responsible. That the people who "betrayed him" were. Also, The Joker would have killed him had he not taken that deal. Dent still wanted to live, otherwise, why put the seatbelt on in that mobster's car.

Tamyrlin: He convinced him he wasn't responsible? Ledger is good, but you have to want to be convinced in that type of scenario. Dent knows that the Joker put Rachel into that situation, in fact, he knows that the Joker dropped her out a window and only Batman saved her. He has to have felt more like the Joker to have not pulled the trigger in that moment in the hospital. The moment was right there. The Joker could have been the first and then he could have gone on his spree. But yes, I agree. The Joker wouldn't have left him alive if he had tried

Gilshalos: Dent gave in to the terrorists.

Tamyrlin: ...hence the necessity of the plot twist...what part are you talking about with giving in to the terrorists?

Gilshalos: His entire fall was giving in. His not shooting The Joker was giving in.

Tamyrlin: his not shooting - I agree is giving in - the fact that he doesn't shoot in that moment, lost me as a viewer. Now we can blame that on me being stubborn

Gilshalos: lol you ARE stubborn.

Tamyrlin: true - but that is what I really felt in that moment ("no way, that harvey dent would have shot him")
theorylandgod: so - it could just be that I wanted it to be the most solid plot I have ever seen, that's possible

Gilshalos: Besides, who said the gun was loaded.

Tamyrlin: exactly - I would have liked to have seen him try to shoot and it being a blank

Gilshalos: I think we should debate this on the boards.

Tamyrlin: then I would have believed it - but they didn't give us that. Okay - I don't mind you throwing up this conversation

Gilshalos: I think I see the problem. You think he overreacted to her death. Because he didn't seem as if he was obsessed with her

Tamyrlin: Yes - I think if he really was reacting with vengence out of his love for her, he would have pulled that trigger. If it was more that he had an obsessive personality, and his feeling for her was more possessive, I would have accepted a less than normal reaction. (trigger in the hospital) I mean - they weren't even married, and as far as we know, they had only been dating for a short period of time...not that he couldn't have loved her, but I just didn't see the twisted side of his personality in there. Maybe they should have played it up more, like when he asked her to marry him...that it was sudden, out of the blue, etc., which they might have been able to do, but the Joker comes in and you can't really tell if she is reacting like he is a freak for asking...plus that letter and her phone call telling him that she loves him, etc....they almost made it too much about some form of "romantic" love to me...to make his reaction real

[ShadowbaneX]

I think Harvey Dent's fall would have been more interesting if they showed more of his time in IA. I mean more then once Dent himself asks Gordon to mention what his nickname was there. Let's see those hints that he's poised to fall if he continues on his path.

As for future movies, again, I'm not really sure what you could do. After that performance, I'm not sure that Ledger can be replaced. Batman's going to be hunted by cops and probably others. I suppose you could have someone coming in as a bounty hunter and trying to 'capture' the Bat while using that as a masquerade for his/her own crimes, but I don't think there's actually anyone currently out there like that.

I definately do agree with Tam that I like the lack of superpowers so that eliminates a bunch of potential foes as well.

[Sinistrum]

I suppose you could have someone coming in as a bounty hunter and trying to 'capture' the Bat while using that as a masquerade for his/her own crimes, but I don't think there's actually anyone currently out there like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deadshot

[ShadowbaneX]

ok, that works, but I still think after the Joker that anything else is going to be a let down. They probably should have built up to the Joker, with that being the final installment in the series.

[Sinistrum]

Per Gilly's request I'm posting a portion from a blog I posted on the movie on myspace. Just some food for thought about the Dent/Joker/Batman dynamic in the movie.

The most overriding theme was the line between good and evil and how in the real world, it is never a clear divide. The basic character premise was the driving force behind this theme, which is why who portrayed them was so important to the success of this movie.

It all starts of course, with Christian Bale. In the last few years he has quickly become my favorite actor and this movie was a testament to that sentiment. He played the duel roll of Batman/Bruce Wayne perfectly. He hit every aspect of both characters perfectly. In playing Wayne, he nailed his public face of a brash, arrogant, and eccentric billionaire playboy. From never showing up to public events with the same girl on his arm to absconding with the Russian ballet and playing off his saving of the lawyer about to out him as just not paying attention to traffic signals, it was all just enough to be believable as long as you didn't scratch to far beneath the surface. He made his portrayal of Wayne echo Rachel Dawes words at the end of Begins, in that Wayne truly was his mask. It made his portrayal of Batman, his true face, that much more effective.

Bale's portrayal of Batman brought to life the characters struggle with itself. You saw the overriding hatred and vindictiveness that drove him to become Batman and his every action since struggle with the moral and ethical consequences of that decision. You saw the toll it took on him personally both in physical pain and the emotional consequences. Batman constantly took a beating both to his person and psychie. His inner strength allowed him to ignore the physical toll, but the emotional toll was constantly weighing on the character. Bale captured the isolation that becoming Batman forced Bruce Wayne into. Loneliness was an ever present companion to him. You saw the self-doubt about his decision once when the public couldn't accept his actions and turned on him and the also the guilt that followed with Joker's destruction of everyone around him. Finally you saw his struggle with balancing between what he knew was right and what was necessary to allow Batman to be an effective combatant against the forces of evil (I'll get back to this later). Bale's portrayal evoked both pity for the Batman but also admiration at his unconquerable will to stay the course and keep fighting in the face of all the doubt, all the pain, and all the guilt. Bale's Batman was the ultimate take what you want and pay for it character. In the end, he paid the price for doing what was necessary without hesitation.

Compared to Batman's gray morality was the two stark examples of light and darkness in the film. Cast in the role of the paragon was Aaron Eckhart as DA Harvey Dent. Eckhart did an excellent job selling this role. He was the White Knight. Pure of heart, righteous, ethical, idealistic, trusting almost to a fault (particularly with Gordon's vouching for the members of the MCU), tender and loving to those he cares about. He played the ultimate do-gooder. He was almost dirty hippi-esque in his boundless optimism, idealism, and belief in the system of justice. Eckhart acted this role so well that it made his ultimate downfall both surprising and gut wrenching, even though any fan of Batman knew it was coming. As for Two-Face, the first thing that springs to mind is his face. It wasn't campy, fake, or plastic looking such as the cartoon portrayals or Tommy Lee Jones. His face was truly horrifying. I literally winced the first time I saw it. The burned flesh, the tendons and bone showing, and the unblinking eye all made the perfect emblem for Two-Face's madness. Both his face and what he ended up becoming was ugly but ultimately pitiable. It emphasized what can happen to anyone who is victimized one to many times by the horrors of life. Dent was the paragon of virtue. Once life got through with him, he was the ultimate victim. As much as I'm uncomfortable using a Trey Parker/Matt Stone reference describe Batman, Dent/Two-face was the epitome the Team America phrase "sometimes p#ssies get shat on so much by @ssholes that they become @ssholes themselves." As for the actions of Two-face I'll come back to that later since it involves tying in all three major characters in the film.

That leaves only one person left to talk about. In discussing the Joker, you can't help but compare him to other incarnations of the character. The most common one is the "clown prince of crime" that was embraced to a great extent by the early comics, the Adam West TV series, Mark Hamill's voice acting in the animated series, and even the Jack Nicholson version. All of those portrayals did one thing that ended up turning me off to the character, and that was emphasizing gags and antics over the Joker's other qualities. Half the time the character is portrayed, it becomes more about the corny jokes and weird but deadly props he uses in his criminal antics, to the point where they overshadow the character itself. He becomes more about being the clown prince and living up to that stereotype than the criminal aspect of the character. This Joker was nothing like that. It embodied another comic book characterization of the Joker that was introduced when the concept of Batman the Dark Knight was introduced. It is the characterization I truly enjoy the most and it is summed up by a quote from another DC villain, the Trickster. "When super-villains want to scare each other, they tell Joker stories." Heath Ledger's Joker was a raging psychopath and was truly terrifying. He was cruel, sadistic, utterly amoral, and while a genius, completely insane. He was fanatically devoted to the only things he saw as true in life and that was violence, pain, and disorder. There was no reasoning with him, no middle ground, no room for debate or negotiation because he not only believed in those things but he reveled in them. They were a part of his being and as such he had the belief in sowing all of it and taking pleasure in doing so (and thus why he found it so funny). In his own words he was an instrument of chaos. But not only that he was the perfect corrupter. His belief in the chaos and pain of life dictated that he must dispose of the conceits thats others around him built to hide those truths. It demanded that he tear down those conceits, such as justice and kindness, and expose the rest of the world to those truths. Thus he was attracted to paragons of those "conceits" such as Dent and Batman and all of his efforts were focused on tearing them down.

The typical sources of psycho-analysis would probably point to some trauma in the Joker's past to explain these beliefs. In this portrayal you couldn't do that. There was no why with Ledger's Joker. The multiple incarnations of his origin story he spin to confuse people and amuse himself make that point perfectly clear. There was no rhyme or reason to his actions, nothing to explain or rationalize away, as is all too common when average people are confronted with a man like him. As Alfred said "some men just want to watch the world burn." Ledger's Joker is the face of modern day, real world evil. It was a masterpiece of acting the likes of which I've never seen. As a final thought, the shear terror he caused in the population of Gotham and the point that was made about the efficacy of capitulating to it by turning in Batman is something everyone should have paid attention to (more on that later).

This all begs the question, how do these characters inter-relate? It all depends upon the perspective of each character. I'll start with Batman and Dent. To Batman, Harvey Dent is truly two-faced in what he means. Dent the paragon is Bruce Wayne's regrets at what could have been. He is the life he could have had if his parents were never gunned down in that alley. He is the Bruce Wayne that Rachel Dawes knew and loved and lost. His determination to see Dent succeed was part what was stated, his desire to put down the cape and cowl, but also part attempt to validate the part of himself still left that believed in absolute ideals. Batman fought so hard for Dent to succeed because he wanted to believe that same idealism in himself could be resurrected and succeed as well. Dent's fate put the ultimate nail in that coffin. The pure light side of Batman died with Rachel Dawes and half of Harvey Dent's face. However, Dent's fate was not a complete loss for Batman. It provided him with a cautionary tale that ultimately prevented him from tipping over the edge the Joker was so carefully pushing him toward (as exemplified by the interrogation scene). Dent's plunge to the dark side ended up pulling Batman back from that same precipice. It provided him with a cautionary tale of what happens when you let your pain overwhelm your moral compass, cross that blurry line between darkness and light, and become the thing you fought so hard against. Two-Face's motives were coated in the clothes of justice as his first few targets may have suggested but in the end he was nothing more than a madman seeking revenge and ended up lashing out at the truly innocent (Gordon's family). Batman saw in Two-Face what he could have ultimately become and his act of assuming responsibility for Two-Face's actions was a rejection of it.

As for what Batman is to Dent, he is the ultimate temptation. He is the expression of Dent's and every person in law enforcement's frustrations with the system and its flaws and the solution that people like him would love to embrace if only their principles would let them. He is what starts Dent down the slippery slope that leads him to his doom when he sees how effective Batman's vigilantism is. You see him give into the temptation even before his accident via his interrogation scene of one of Joker's henchmen. This begs the question, why does Dent fall in the face of that temptation and Batman does not? It comes down to experience. Bruce Wayne has had almost his entire life in experience in dealing with the dark side of life. He is knowledgeable of its pitfalls and knows where the line between light and dark truly lays. Dent, as a paragon, has almost no personal experience. He is a tender foot bumbling in the woods at night when it comes to the darkness in the human soul. He doesn't know how to temper it or control it like Wayne does. Thus when he begins to succumb to it, it devours him effortlessly and completely.

As for the Batman/Joker dynamic Joker said it best. "You complete me." To the Joker, Batman is the ultimate challenge. He is the ultimate expression of all that the Joker thinks are the lies of human existence. Batman and what he represents are the ultimate challenges to his version of humanity. His fanatical devotion to his "truths" dictate that he must expose those lies in Batman because in doing so he will prove to himself that his truths are exactly that. Thus his quest to turn Batman into another Harvey Dent, another monster, another version of himself. This is truly why the Joker can't kill him. He needs Batman, or more importantly what he hopes to turn Batman into, to validate his own existence.

And as strange as it might sound, the Joker completes Batman. The Joker's personification of ultimate evil serves two purposes for Batman that are essential for him to get through his personal struggles in the movie. The first is that the Joker helps Batman resolve his guilt and self-doubt over his past choices. The Joker reminds Batman of why he made the choices he did. His existence serves to reassure Batman that those choices were the necessary and right ones. The Joker also serves to help Batman resolve his doubts about the continued need of Batman. He shows Batman the corruptive power of evil against idealism in what the Joker does to Dent, and in the end, through Two-face, he shows Batman that the necessity of his fight against that evil will never cease. The Joker simultaneously steels Batman's resolve from his past and sets his course for the future.

As for Dent/Joker, Dent sees the Joker as all idealists see men of Joker's nature. He rationalizes his nature away into something more comfortable than the reality. He tries to explain and justify the Joker, to treat him like any other human being. Hence all of his efforts at capturing the Joker are done within the system of order, a system given Joker's genius and philosophical leanings is one the Joker can easily exploit to his advantage or simply rip apart when he wishes. In doing so he consistently underestimates the nature of the Joker's goals and just how far he will go to see them accomplished. The Joker's set up in the MCU lockup or his capture of Dent and Dawes could not have happened if not for Dent's rationalization of the Joker as something he could explain, pidgeonhole and deal with through the orderly process of the system. Dent's interrogation of Joker's henchman was also telling. He was looking for an order, an answer, or anything at all familiar in something that was completely devoid of any of that. As I stated before, his corruption was the result of a lack of experience in dealing with darkness that made him completely incapable of dealing with it but his naivette in recognizing its true nature surely didn't help either. The Joker is able to take precise advantage of both in his calculated destruction of Dent by destroying his faith in the order of the world (as was the entire point of their conversation in the hospital). He strips everything away that Dent believes in away from him, until all that is left is what the Joker embraces. Pain, rage, and chaos.

As for the Joker, he sees Dent as first an appetizer and then almost a pupil. He's the warm up round for what he plans for Batman. He did everything he did to Dent just see how it would work on a paragon of virtue. He uses Dent as a pawn. Hence his admissions to Dent in the hospital were true. There was no animus or hatred behind what he did. What the Joker did to Dent was nothing personal. This is true not only because the Joker's end game was Batman but because Dent provided him with almost the perfect victim. He was so ripe for the picking that the Joker's very nature couldn't help but do what he did to Dent. This is particularly interesting because of the way the Joker reacts after he's finished with Dent. Once again, the hospital conversation is telling. In the Joker's mind he was just doing Dent a favor by exposing the truth of the world to him. His conversation in the hospital with Dent was Joker's twisted way of showing compassion. He was giving his victim something else to cling to instead of the order he had relied on previously. And in doing so he blurred the lines between good and evil in exactly the same way Batman does for Dent.

The balance created by Christopher Nolan is masterfully clear. In Batman you see the good of people touched with a hint of darkness that creates a gray. In Joker you see pure evil with just a hint of good that furthers the confusion between the two sides. And in Dent you see the ultimate fence sitter. He straddles both sides of the line but can never full embrace either at the same time.

[Tamyrlin]

Although I have a little bit of a problem with how you say Dent is portrayed.

Compared to Batman's gray morality was the two stark examples of light and darkness in the film. Cast in the role of the paragon was Aaron Eckhart as DA Harvey Dent. Eckhart did an excellent job selling this role. He was the White Knight. Pure of heart, righteous, ethical, idealistic, trusting almost to a fault (particularly with Gordon's vouching for the members of the MCU), tender and loving to those he cares about. He played the ultimate do-gooder. He was almost dirty hippi-esque in his boundless optimism, idealism, and belief in the system of justice. Eckhart acted this role so well that it made his ultimate downfall both surprising and gut wrenching, even though any fan of Batman knew it was coming.

I don't see this "pure of heart, righteous, ethical, trusting almost to a fault" in Dent. He mentions at the very beginning that people would refer to him as Two-faced long before he became Two-faced. He is very concerned/suspicious of Gordon's unit the first time he mentions it. He is cavalier, brazen, sneaky, pretentious, likes to consider himself funny, and depending on what you believe was or was not the plan, willing to lie to the public for what he perceived was justified to get the end he wanted. The character I saw portrayed on screen was far from "light", even before the Joker became a major player, which is what I continue to appreciate from Nolan. His characters, even the ones others set up as enviable, are nuanced and flawed. Joker is able to manipulate the underlying discontent Dent feels about himself and the justice system. The seed to what Dent becomes is planted long ago, which is why it is able to grow so quickly; it was waiting just under the surface waiting to be brought out. Add the loss of his girlfriend and his disfigurement and he is ripe for someone to justify his discontent with the way the world works. His downfall is not surprising, necessarily (for the purpose of the movie it had to happen "quick" which feels surprising), but his letting the Joker walk away, that's the one piece I believe Nolan and his brother got wrong. He should have pulled that trigger. It should have been a blank. The Joker should have smiled, licked his lips, left the gun on the bed and walked away. The pulling of the trigger would have been the signal that he had given in.

[ShadowbaneX]

To look at the movie in a microcosm, take a look at the two ferries near the end. You've got the 'bad guys' in which one of them stands up, takes the remote and tosses it out a window vs the good 'innocents' who think that they deserve to live. I think this sort of mirrors Sinistrum's point about Batman and Dent.

[Sinistrum]

Precisely SBX. Dent was the ferry full of ordinary people who had little to no exposure to the dark side of life and when presented with it, had no defense to it consuming them. The criminals on the other hand understood that in spite of their darkness, there was a line that couldn't be crossed, even by them. They understood that because they had experience living with it.

He is very concerned/suspicious of Gordon's unit the first time he mentions it.

Yes but he ultimately trusts Gordon's judgment much to his detriment.

He is cavalier, brazen, sneaky, pretentious, likes to consider himself funny, and depending on what you believe was or was not the plan, willing to lie to the public for what he perceived was justified to get the end he wanted.

Most paragons are cavalier and pretentious. It's a side effect of absolute faith in the rightness and justice of your cause. As for the sneaky/lying part, it harmed nobody and was still in the interest of justice, which is what Dent is ultimately a paragon of. Furthermore, as a paragon for the system of order, it doesn't mean he still can't have flaws, just like that same system. And just because those flaws exist doesn't mean the system doesn't represent "light" in the context of the movie.

but his letting the Joker walk away, that's the one piece I believe Nolan and his brother got wrong. He should have pulled that trigger.

I think he got it exactly right. The fact that he didn't pull the trigger when everyone was expecting him too is demonstrative that his conversion by the Joker from a paragon of order to an agent of chaos was truly complete. Pulling the trigger was what almost everyone in his position would have done. It is what everyone else would expect him to do. It is how the natural order of events should be. But men like the Joker and Two-Face don't conform to the natural order. They rip it apart. If he had pulled the trigger it would have meant that Harvey Dent still believed in order to some extent and would have precluded him from committing the inconsistant acts of chaos that he ultimately committed (sparing the mob boss but shooting the driver, killing the first traitor cop but sparing the second, going after Gordon's family).

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The coin became Dent's focus, not justice. So, instead of justice making the decision for him, the coin did.

[Sinistrum]

The coin became Dent's focus, not justice. So, instead of justice making the decision for him, the coin did.

And the coin is an instrument of chance. There is no order to the decisions it leads Dent to. Let the lord of chaos rule. :p

[Sarevok]

K, I just saw the movie, and I loved it. I just have one question: Why did Batman fall of his bike when he tried to run over the Joker? That didn't make any sense at all, to me... :s

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Couldn't stop in time and didn't want to kill him so he trusted in his armor to save his skin.

[Sarevok]

k... so why did he race at him that way in the first place?? :s

[Sinistrum]

Because he was tempted to run him over.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

It's a game called Chicken. He was not expecting the Joker TO STAND THERE LIKE A MORON. Or a crazy person.

[Davian93]

Best movie I've seen this year...though There Will Be Blood is a tough one (technically it was an 07 movie though). The outstanding cast down to having Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, and Gary Oldman as supporting characters make these new Batman movies outstanding. And Christian Bale is the 2nd best actor currently working...Sorry but Daniel Day Lewis is superior to all comers.

I actually cheered when Gyllenhaal died as I can't stand her but I still think she was small step up from Mrs. Cruise who continually talks out of the side of her mouth for some reason.

Bottom line...BEST Movie of the year and best Batman movie ever.

[Ishara]

I walked out of that movies disturbed. I won't say that I enjoyed it - it was soemthing else entirely.

One question: was that really scarecrow at the beginning? It looked like Cillian Murphy, but I didn't understand why/ how he came to be impersonating the good guy...??

[Sarevok]

maybe a stupid question but...

who/what is Scarecrow?

[JSUCamel]

One question: was that really scarecrow at the beginning? It looked like Cillian Murphy, but I didn't understand why/ how he came to be impersonating the good guy...??

Yes.

Chaos.

[Ishara]

What do you mean chaos. Scarecrow didn't serve chaos last time, he served himself and the League of Shadows. Even if he was being altruistic, was he in league with the imposter batmen, or just himself? Either way, why wouldn't Batman have brought the guy to justice? It looked to me like Scarecrow attacked Batman with the poison - again. Not a sign that he's playing nice, wouldn't you say?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The false batmen were vigilantes without Batman's carte blanche from the cops. The Scarecrow didn't believe the false batmen as they used guns and the real one doesn't.

Trying to figure out what good guy you're talking about...

[Ishara]

I meant, why was he working with the other impersonators, but you don't seem to think he was?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

He wasn't. He was there to make a drug deal which the impersonators were trying to foil.

[ShadowbaneX]

he wasn't. They were just others using the Batman's image in an attempt to stop crime, they were just copycats.

[Davian93]

he wasn't. They were just others using the Batman's image in an attempt to stop crime, they were just copycats.


That worked out really well for the one that the Joker caught and tortured while he taped the whole thing. (the allusions to ALQ doing that to US citizens was eery).

Honestly they made one of the best movies that has been made in a long long time and got rid of the one weak actor from the first one in Katie Holmes. I don't like Maggie Gyllenhaal either but she is at least a step in the right direction and they really allowed her character to grow...into a bunch of little pieces splattered against the walls of that warehouse.

[Zaela Sedai]

The movie disturbed me to say the least.

But that was by far the BEST movie I've seen this year. Its one of the best movies I've EVER seen. It was amazing to watch and actually laugh at times when the Joker was being that disturbing LOL (does that make sense?)

Ledger really turn into that guy, I really didnt think that I was watching an actor... so creepy. The mannerisms were just...man I don't even know. I do however, understand how he became so disturbed after playing the roll...

Oscar nods all around please...the movie itself better at least be nominated...it was no "superhero movie".

[Davian93]

I agree completely. It was a character and story driven movie that happened to have a superhero in it. Bale and Ledger were both amazing and the supporting cast was outstanding as always. The writing was immaculate. It was the best "superhero" movie of all time and easily the best 2008 movie I've seen so far. It is Godfather II to the original Godfather...or its Wrath of Khan good. etc etc etc Empire Strikes Back good.

[Mort]

Saw the movie tonight. It was really good. Especially liked Ledger. Man, I couldn't recognize him at all. Ledger grew 10 times as an actor for me in this movie, and it saddens me even more that we've lost his genious acting skills :(

I liked a lot of the scenes in the movie but one of my favorites are when the prisoner takes the bomb trigger and throws it out the window. Maybe an act too good to be true would it happen IRL but I liked it nonethless :)

I think there is no doubt anymore why the movie is currently the number one in IMDB's top 250 movies. It's probably not the greatest movie ever, but it is ranked pretty high.

Speaking of #1 movie ever, I couldn't even come up with one at the moment, all the great movies I know are usually good for different reasons and are maybe even suitable for certain moods so it becomes hard to pinpoint THE greatest movie ever.