PDA

View Full Version : Cadsuane vs Moraine


Nei
02-03-2011, 04:06 AM
Just reading New Spring over again. I'm just curious, how did Cadsuane know that Moiraine was a full sister? She did not yet have the agelessness, and while Cadsuane might have left a lasting impression, Moraine couldn't have been more than just a random accepted/novice when she saw her in the Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
02-03-2011, 04:10 AM
Well, apart from being just a random accepted/novice, Moiraine was also one of the three with the highest potential*, and consequently one to keep an eye on.
So noticing her was not quite as unreasonable as one might assume. Not letting on that they'd been noticed was quite smart from Cadsuane, as that put her in a position to take advantage of her knowledge when it suited her.

One could ask why none of the other AS recognised her.

* Together with Siuan and Elaida. Both of whom also came to play fairly important parts in events, as you may recall.

1Powerslave
02-03-2011, 06:04 AM
And here I rushed in expecting to see a full catfight with pictures. Grumble.

Toss the dice
02-13-2011, 01:42 AM
And here I rushed in expecting to see a full catfight with pictures. Grumble.

Cadsuane makes you hot too, huh?

1Powerslave
02-13-2011, 09:26 AM
Cadsuane makes you hot too, huh?
Well she IS handsome. Says so in the books it does.

Juan
02-13-2011, 11:43 AM
And here I rushed in expecting to see a full catfight with pictures. Grumble.

Same. Or at least a discussion about who would win in a fight before M got her strength in the OP sucked away. Or maybe who's wiser/smarter...

Nei
02-14-2011, 01:35 AM
I am sorry to disappoint :( I was under the impression that Cadsuane was the stronger of the two though.

Terez
02-14-2011, 02:16 AM
I am sorry to disappoint :( I was under the impression that Cadsuane was the stronger of the two though.
She was. That doesn't mean that Moiraine was not remarkable. Aside from her strength, she was notable for her high rank among the Cairhienin.

1Powerslave
02-18-2011, 07:08 AM
Moiraine has killed a Forsaken, Cadsuane has not. Cadsuane is a legend and now so is Moiraine. I wonder how the sisters will behave around Moiraine now, and if it will come close to what Cadsuane receives. Somehow I think not. It is not Moiraine's style to gather sisters around her and use them, she's always worked solo.

Heinz
02-18-2011, 01:15 PM
Moiraine has killed a Forsaken, Cadsuane has not. Cadsuane is a legend and now so is Moiraine. I wonder how the sisters will behave around Moiraine now, and if it will come close to what Cadsuane receives. Somehow I think not. It is not Moiraine's style to gather sisters around her and use them, she's always worked solo.

She may not gather a following of Aes Sedai herself, but will some follow her lead anyway? I doubt it also, but its a thought. Or how will the Aes Sedai act around her? How will one of them react when, say, Cadsuane tells one random Aes Sedai to 'tell that fool girl to get in here'? Probably deliver the message in more polite tones.

Then again, how will they react to a 'legend' they thought dead? Cadsuane managed by bullying to overawe the other Aes Sedai and cultivating that legendary perception. That really isn't Moiraine's style. In the absense of that cultivation, will that aura hold? Or will she simply be regarded as a strong-willed Aes Sedai (though now a bit weaker in the power, iirc. Its been a while since I finished ToM)? Was she a more powerful symbol in death, like a painter or other artist can sometimes become, and now will lose that in life?

Personally, I expect to see an initial clash between these two when they meet, and hope to see a reconciliation and a unity between them after. There has been so little unity and co-operation, I don't really expect it, but I hope to see it.

Enigma
02-22-2011, 06:58 AM
Moiraine has one advantage over Cadsuane in that she clearly knows something about what is going to happen or needs to happen. Min's viewings said Rand needed her and she would have been given her three wishes or questions.

Knowledge is power.

Secondly Rand is probably a lot closer to Moiraine that Cadsuane. He respects Cadsuane but he both likes and respects Moiraine. Having the ear of the Dragon Reborn is bound to carry some weight as well.

Nei
02-22-2011, 09:25 AM
She was. That doesn't mean that Moiraine was not remarkable. Aside from her strength, she was notable for her high rank among the Cairhienin.

Actually there was something I wondered about while i was doing my re-read. Moiraine was pretty high ranked among Cairhienin, in fact she was considered a prime candidate as the next in line for the throne after Laman.

Given how politically savvy the Cairhienin are, you would think that they (or at least one of the Damodreds) would have recognised her. Instead only Thom does and he probably knew way before he actually let on that he was on to her.

Helloes
02-23-2011, 09:46 AM
That's not so hard to understand, she went to the tower when she was 16? or something along those lines and hasn't been seen in Cairhien since then. Most people have probably forgotten her, and there's not exactly that many surviving Damodred's left to point her out either.

I'm assuming Thom figured out who she was due to her first name, since everyone in WoT has a unique one :D

Terez
02-23-2011, 09:57 AM
Not everyone. There are some repeat names in the series. It's implied that repeat names are more common in the lower class.

GonzoTheGreat
02-23-2011, 10:25 AM
And the Cairhienin would be unlikely to have completely forgotten that a high ranking Damodred went to the Tower. Then a Moiraine Damodred Aes Sedai returns with the Lord Dragon in tow, and everyone is supposed to overlook the possibility that she's the Damodred who went to Tar Valon?

I'm surprised there weren't any schemes to stuff her onto the throne while she was with Rand in Cairhien.

Terez
02-23-2011, 10:30 AM
I'm not. The Cairhienin would not have ventured at that point to put Moiraine in power because she had too much of it for their tastes. They wanted someone closer to home, someone more vulnerable to their plottings. And of course, Rand himself had Elayne in mind at that time because by all appearances Morgase would be ruling for some years yet, and he did not trust Moiraine.

Rand al'Fain
02-23-2011, 10:34 AM
Cairhienen like to fight dirty, plus Moiraine is about 260 years younger than Cadsuane, so I think she's a bit more nimble.

I'd give it to Moiraine in a close fight.

Nei
02-23-2011, 12:30 PM
I figured it would've been easy to recognised Moiraine on sight. It was said during Caraline's introduction that the two cousins had a very strong resemblance.


I'm surprised there weren't any schemes to stuff her onto the throne while she was with Rand in Cairhien.

More than stuffing her into the throne, I was surprised there weren't any mention of the other Houses readying to sabotage any Damodred attempts to grasp at power.

I mean, the Dragon Reborn shows up with Moiraine (who's so obviously the neice of Laman) in tow and she appears to have his ear even if we know better. The Cairhienin are notorious for reading too much into just about everything from a sniff to a fart. They should've been obsessing over what kind of pro-Damodred influence she might have been exerting over him.

Terez
02-23-2011, 12:33 PM
They might have been, but how would we know? We don't see what they are up to - just Rand's idle wondering about what they are thinking in regards to who he means to put on the throne.

Frenzy
02-23-2011, 11:32 PM
Just reading New Spring over again. I'm just curious, how did Cadsuane know that Moiraine was a full sister? She did not yet have the agelessness, and while Cadsuane might have left a lasting impression, Moraine couldn't have been more than just a random accepted/novice when she saw her in the Tower.

i don't have my copy of New Spring with me (lent it to a friend), but there are two things that come to mind to answer your question. One: did she have her ring on? (i don't think so, only because the other Sisters should've noticed something as bloody obvious as that), and Two: Cadsuane knows who Moiraine is, and Cadsuane knows that only full Sisters are allowed outside the White Tower. No Accepted and certainly no mere Novice would be on her own so far from Tar Valon, and not wetting herself at the site of full Sisters. Given that, it's simple deduction.

Juan
02-24-2011, 01:16 AM
Except of course that Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne left the tower without being AS. So that's not necessarily a safe assumption to make.

I haven't read the book in a while, but as you said, Frenzy, I'm willing to bet that Cadsuane knew who Moiraine was. She likely keeps herself well-informed especially on someone as important to the throne of Cairhien as Moiraine and with as much potential as she had.

Frenzy
02-24-2011, 01:58 AM
Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne leaving the Tower (18 years later) is the exception that proves the assumption.

Oh, and three: Cadsuane dragging Moiraine back to the Tower as a runaway Accepted wouldn't move the plot along very much.

Juan
02-24-2011, 02:00 AM
Cadsuane wouldn't drag Moiraine back to the tower because 1. she has better things to do. And 2. Cadsuane likely knew about Moiraine.

Frenzy
02-24-2011, 02:16 AM
Cadsuane wouldn't drag Moiraine back to the tower because ... Cadsuane likely knew about Moiraine.
I'm just curious, how did Cadsuane know that Moiraine was a full sister?
The circle is now complete...

FelixPax
02-24-2011, 04:12 AM
And the Cairhienin would be unlikely to have completely forgotten that a high ranking Damodred went to the Tower.

That's an understatement, for sure, because her disappearance lead Cairhien into fighting struggle some 20 years ago. House of Damodred is too powerful to have been forgotten.


Moiraine's Cairhienin cousins who she went "hawking" with (in N.S. book) have not forgotten her, I'd bet: e.g. Caraline Damodred; plus her younger cousins Elayne, Galad.


Nor has Anvaere Damodred likely forgotten about her younger sister Moiraine. Anvaere would get along well with Mat Cauthon, I think too (Horses, Hawking, bit of a Temper). Moiraine's other sister Innloine Damodred, might remember her... but she's perhaps a bit more like Egwene al'Vere rather than Mat Cauthon?


What other Cairheinin would remember who Moiraine is?


Talmanes De-lovin-de
Dobraine Taborwin
Breane Taborwin
Cera Doinal
Mistress Beldair (head cook, with gray hair)
Corgaide Marendevin ("Holder of the Keys", with gray hair)
Lady Arilyn of House Dhulaine (Gray Ajah eyes & ears)
Niande Moorwyn of the Gray Ajah
'Older Librarians' at Royal Library of Cairhien, because her father was a scholar.
Maglin Madwen, an Innkeeper in Tremonsien (Resident for 23 years)
Mother Caredwain, of Tremonsien. (possibility a Kin member, as she has a "fine hand with soothing herbs" TGH,Ch.21--Rand pov)



Remember Moiraine Damodrad grew up in the Sun Palace, of Cairhein (TGH,Ch.4). That's one reason Moiraine did not accompany Rand al'Thor into the Sun Palace after saving Cairhien from the Shiado Aiel attacks in TFoH book.

GonzoTheGreat
02-24-2011, 04:26 AM
Except of course that Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne left the tower without being AS. So that's not necessarily a safe assumption to make.Then again, they did not meet any AS who they had met in the Tower while they were out having adventures, did they?
Apart from Verin and Moiraine, who are sort of special cases.

But when Elaida's embassy arrived, Egwene had to hide very quickly to avoid precisely the thing we are discussing here: being dragged back to the Tower as a runaway.
And when Nynaeve and Elayne got in touch with real AS again (in Salidar) they were immediately stuffed back into their "proper positions" too.

maacaroni
02-24-2011, 05:07 AM
Regarding Cairhien, am I the only one who thinks that Morgase is being set up as the de facto ruler?

And another thought, does Moiraine's angrealised power-jump change the standings or not amongst AS? With Egwene most likely changing this convention, it will not matter in the future anyway!

greatwolf
02-24-2011, 08:25 AM
Moiraine has killed a Forsaken, Cadsuane has not. Cadsuane is a legend and now so is Moiraine. I wonder how the sisters will behave around Moiraine now, and if it will come close to what Cadsuane receives. Somehow I think not. It is not Moiraine's style to gather sisters around her and use them, she's always worked solo.

I'll agree with Frenzy here. I think Cadsuane is smart enough to realize that asking Moiraine if she's a full sister might just diminish her status a tad. So she'll have to guess. And from Moiraine's attempted anger and the lack of it from Merean(?) and co I think she'll have a reasonable answer to work with.

But two other issues you raise. First status: the AS way has taken a bashing in recent times with amyrlins being deposed illegally, accepted raised without the oath rod, Leane switching ajahs, novices like sharina who really ought not to have been taken in but also should be a full sister, the impending problems with other groups of channelers (+ashaman) and so on.

I think even the most hardened AS will have to accept change. And Moiraine's return may fuel that change in so many ways. Is she still Moiraine Damodred of the blue ajah with her former status as AS intact(including her standing). Quite obviously yes and no. :p

Moiraine has returned from the dead. She stood toe to toe with Aginor, one of the most powerful of the all powerful forsaken. She killed two forsaken including Lanfear, efectively showing that strength isn't everything. She is trustworthy since she's obviously not a DF.

To the minds of the average AS, Moiraine may actually be classed with one of the forsaken! Irrespective of her current strength. And in a world where sister now know that strength can change but what you know can't, I wont be surprised if the current method of ranking is abandoned in favour one that will favour candidates like Moiraine.

Finally, Moiraine works alone but also with those who she needs to work with. But she certainly doesn't coerce like Cadsuane though she was strong enough to order most of them about.

Sei'taer
02-25-2011, 07:43 PM
i don't have my copy of New Spring with me (lent it to a friend), but there are two things that come to mind to answer your question. One: did she have her ring on? (i don't think so, only because the other Sisters should've noticed something as bloody obvious as that), and Two: Cadsuane knows who Moiraine is, and Cadsuane knows that only full Sisters are allowed outside the White Tower. No Accepted and certainly no mere Novice would be on her own so far from Tar Valon, and not wetting herself at the site of full Sisters. Given that, it's simple deduction.

Also, Moiraine and Cadsuane were supposed to be the same person at that point, so Caddie would obviously know herself. I wish Sven was here.

FelixPax
02-26-2011, 05:25 AM
Regarding Cairhien, am I the only one who thinks that Morgase is being set up as the de facto ruler?

Perhaps you are the only one to think Morgase will rule Cairhien in the future?

Now if you had said Morgase is to be the ruler of:


Amadicia
What's left of the Shadow Coast Mountains area after the mountains themselves are 'flatten like a pancake' by Rand al'Thor, Alivia, Mierin & Callandor.


Maybe you'd be the second person. ;)



Cairhien, Caemlyn are going to be dust soon. (See 'Fourth Age' writings for evidence)


So where to build a new capital city for a new united nation? A "Court of the Sun"?


Where do two rivers meet?
Maerone.

A place for a drink & a dance...
A place for Maeron/Birgitte...
A place unconnected to Rand al'Thor's prior Bargain with the Sea Folk Clans...
A place some distance away Aes Sedai clustering in Tar Valon...
A place near but not in Andor or Cairhien proper...
A place near prime trade routes, and a great forest...
A place for new beginnings....

Jonai
02-26-2011, 09:31 AM
What Felix said.

(can't believe I just said that)

Toss the dice
02-28-2011, 12:31 AM
Just posting to chime in quick on what I remember concerning Cadsuane knowing Moiraine was a full sister. While she could have been guessing at first, I don't think she was. Also, I remember a little bit during when they met where Cadsuane lectures Moiraine on danger, on how just because she is an Aes Sedai now doesn't make her invincible, that many new sisters that have attained the shawl have much yet to learn. There were more things said in that area of discussion as well. Cadsuane DID know for an absolute fact that Moiraine was a full Aes Sedai by the time the discussion was over. Obviously Cadsuane knew of Moiraine before the two of them even met in the Borderlands, due to her strength. Unsure if this helps at all, but there it is. Been awhile.

Also, to be annoying...Moiraine didn't kill Lanfear. The Aelfinn and Eelfinn did that. Not that any of the other sisters would know unless one of a select few people said it though. :) However, IMO Moiraine definately can be said to have "defeated" Lanfear, saving Rand and the situation at the docks by hurtling the both of them through the redstone doorframe. And you could also say she "assisted" in the death of Lanfear for obvious reasons. But technically she didn't kill her.

FelixPax
02-28-2011, 02:47 AM
However, IMO Moiraine definately can be said to have "defeated" Lanfear, saving Rand and the situation at the docks by hurtling the both of them through the redstone doorframe. And you could also say she "assisted" in the death of Lanfear for obvious reasons. But technically she didn't kill her.

Are you sure you read Tower of Midnight, Epilogue "And After"?

Mierin never died.


"Mierin? You're dead. I saw you die!

She shook her head. "I wish I were dead. I wish it. Please! He grinds my bones and snaps them like twigs, then leaves me to die before Healing me just enough to keep me alive. He--"

Towers of Midnight, Epilogue "And After" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear/Selene/Else Grimwell


Who is torturing Mierin as a prisoner now?

Moridin.

"What?"

Her eyes opened wide and she spun toward the wall. "No!" she screamed. "He comes! The Shadow in every man's mind, the murderer of truth. No! She spun, reaching for Rand, but something towed her backward. The wall broke away, and and she tumbled into the darkness.


Towers of Midnight, Epilogue "And After" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear/Selene/Else Grimwell

One key phrase is "The Shadow in every man's mind", which alludes to Rand and Moridin's 'bizarre two-way mental linkage'. That linkage is a parallel of Slayer's existence: a man with two souls.

Terez
02-28-2011, 02:52 AM
So, wait a second...do you think this was Lanfear pretending to be Cyndane, but Cyndane is still a separate person?

FelixPax
02-28-2011, 04:28 AM
So, wait a second...do you think this was Lanfear pretending to be Cyndane, but Cyndane is still a separate person?

No.
You have it backwards. Moridin is the one who pushed Cyndane to act "like" Lanfear in public in front of the other Chosen.



Cyndane always was a separate individual, a separate soul.

Mierin never died, never became Cyndane.

Two totally different individuals, as I have claimed repeatedly before.


Moridin was screwing with the other male Chosen, in creating the illusion that Cyndane was the re-created Lanfear. (e.g. = Demandred; Aran'gar.)

Moridin's lied to them all.

Mierin told Rand al'Thor the truth in TofM, Epilogue... Nobody has killed her in the series once. Not the Moiraine; Not the Eelfinn; Not Moridin.


Other claims:


Mierin "loves" Rand.
Rand "loves" Mierin.
Mierin will "marry" Rand al'Thor before the she is stabbed by the creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth. (e.g. The Moon will Bleed Blood)
Mierin will share Rand with four other Women: Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Fortuona (asa type)
Mierin is Mat Cauthon's soul's "mother" in a prior life; Rand al'Thor was Mat Cauthon's soul "father" in a prior life; Mat Cauthon will become a "First-Brother" to Rand al'Thor in AMoL book; thus Mat Cauthon will formally marry his soul "mother" and "father".


(And yes, I do think this set-up is extremely twisted on Robert Jordan behalf. Which is one reason, I suspect Brandon Sanderson does not want to write the outriggers at this time.)

Terez
02-28-2011, 06:04 AM
Okay, then how do you explain why Mierin looks like Cyndane rather than Lanfear in the epilogue?

Also, she doesn't say she never died. She just says she wishes she were dead.

FelixPax
02-28-2011, 06:13 AM
Okay, then how do you explain why Mierin looks like Cyndane rather than Lanfear in the epilogue?


Mat Cauthon specifically stated that the Eelfinn & Aelfinn can Age individuals, if that is their "price".


Mierin enjoyed her beauty to attract everyone attentions. The Eelfinn's price was take what she cares for, her beauty.

Rand al'Thor knew Mierin by her "eyes", in TofM book.

Moridin removed all of Mierin's jewelry, for the very reason they reflect "the Light".



Claim, Predict for the Future:

Mierin was a double agent working ultimately with L.T.T. against the Dark One at the end of the 2nd Age. Her jewelry is a symbol of her ultimate allegiance to the Light. Mierin's jewelry is a parallel of the Miao silver jewelry symbolism. Miao live in Vietnam, USA, China among other places.

Moridin finally learned that Mierin betrayed the Shadow for the Light, that is why Moridin is torturing Mierin in TofM book.


Yes Mierin liked "power", however receiving the love of L.T.T always was more important to her.

FelixPax
02-28-2011, 06:20 AM
Also, she doesn't say she never died. She just says she wishes she were dead.


"Mierin? You're dead. I saw you die!

She shook her head. "I wish I were dead. I wish it.



The Dark One did not bring Mierin back to life. Otherwise she would not claim "I wish I were dead." Additionally, Mierin claims Moiraine did not kill her. Additionally, Moiraine believes that Mierin was not killed by the Eelfinn in TofM book (Mat pov).


Separately, the Dark One has not brought back to life traitors. Why should the Dark One bring back an enemy, a traitor?

Terez
02-28-2011, 06:26 AM
Okay.

Nei
02-28-2011, 06:44 AM
[I]
Other claims:


Mierin "loves" Rand.
Rand "loves" Mierin.
Mierin will "marry" Rand al'Thor before the she is stabbed by the creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth. (e.g. The Moon will Bleed Blood)
Mierin will share Rand with four other Women: Min, Aviendha, Elayne, Fortuona (asa type)
Mierin is Mat Cauthon's soul's "mother" in a prior life; Rand al'Thor was Mat Cauthon's soul "father" in a prior life; Mat Cauthon will become a "First-Brother" to Rand al'Thor in AMoL book; thus Mat Cauthon will formally marry his soul "mother" and "father".



....what? Okay the only one that even remotely makes a bit of sense here is point 3, but only about the moon bleeding blood. Just because she makes Rand's Johnny stand up and say hello, doesn't mean he still loves her.

Anyway I think GarySt- I mean, Rand already has more women latching on to him than is believable. I'm pretty sure Alanna too has the rebound hots for him on top of his 3 main hos. This is not a harem manga >=(

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2011, 07:22 AM
Moiraine also considered hooking up with him, remember? Then there's Selande, who now seems to regret that she let him scare her away. And of course there was Else. And Egwene was into him, until she discovered the joys of narcissism. Then there was Berelain, who did have somewhat political motivations, I admit.
Plus, if we're counting anyway, we might as well accept the "Cyndane, Lanfear and Mierin are three different women" idea.