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Rand al'Fain
02-04-2011, 12:55 AM
Just kind of throwing this out there, but after re-reading The Great Hunt and beginning to re-read the Dragin Reborn, I did come across a fairly obscure part. Almost looks like it was brushed under there, but back to the point. It said that the Dragon Reborn would do something about breaking chains, which heavily implies (at least to me) that Rand is the cause in which the Damane are freed. It's either near the end of The Great Hunt (last few chapters) or at the beginning of The Dragon Reborn.

Terez
02-04-2011, 01:26 AM
It's a well-known line, but it's too general to be tied to anything specific. You could say it applies to the Tairen peasants, or all the Dragonsworn who abandoned their lords for Rand.

I do think the damane will be freed, but I don't think Rand will have much of anything to do with it. More likely Egwene and Mat.

The Immortal One
02-04-2011, 02:46 AM
It's a well-known line, but it's too general to be tied to anything specific. You could say it applies to the Tairen peasants, or all the Dragonsworn who abandoned their lords for Rand.

I do think the damane will be freed, but I don't think Rand will have much of anything to do with it. More likely Egwene and Mat.

Well, he did (in a way I suppose) free the Damane from the battle along the coast near Illian (I forget which book it was in). Though he didn't really - they were still chained when he gave them to Elayne as a 'gift'.


Although, now that I think about it, he shatters the Domination Band. Perhaps he broke his own chains?

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2011, 04:08 AM
"Neither the first nor the last," Moiraine said. "Callandor will be but one fulfillment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'? What does it meant that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? And some are so obscure that he may already have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it. But, no. Callandor is far from the end of it."Of course, it could be that Rand will break those cuendillar chains in the Tar Valon harbors. That'd freak out some AS, and (maybe) even make them start wondering whether cuendillar Seals are really as dependable as they believe.

Weird Harold
02-04-2011, 09:03 AM
It said that the Dragon Reborn would do something about breaking chains, which heavily implies (at least to me) that Rand is the cause in which the Damane are freed.

The problem with that "What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?" line from Moiraine's list of examples is that it is NOT in quotes as a verbatim passage from the KC. It is punctuated as a paraphrasing of the KC and there is no context to show that the two questions are related.

For example:



"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream."

The 'Chains' on Asmodean were figurative and not placed by Rand, but Asmodean's servitude to Rand may well be the fulfillment of half of Moirarine's paraphrase.

We also run into the problem of just who "He" is in any given passage of the KC -- and other prophecies -- because we know that 'He' can mean Mat:



"Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

Terez
02-04-2011, 10:33 AM
Also, it was Nynaeve who Healed wounds of madness and cutting of hope (both). Some might say the cleansing counts for both, though.

bgrishinko
02-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Yeah, this is one of those generic prophecies that could mean anything from the breaking of the Aiel, the freeing of the Damane, changing whole systems of Governments like in Tear, heck, even the entire great alliance that is about to take place is breaking chains and ties as old as most people know.

What ‘wounds of madness and cutting of hope’ has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains?

The is thinking about the Kareathon cycle in general at this point in her own thoughts. She may even be interpreting it wrong as WoT folks usually do.

And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end. His coming shall be like the sharp edge of the plow, turning our lives in furrows from out of the places where we lie in our silence. The breaker of bonds; the forger of chains. The maker of futures; the unshaper of destiny.

This is interesting because it says that Rand will FORGE chains and break bonds. Of course this part of the prophecy may not refer to Rand, but it sure seems like it in context of the where it lies in the rest of the Karaethon Cycle.

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Rand will probably be saddled with the blame for those cuendillar chains in the Tar Valon harbors.

Juan
02-04-2011, 05:10 PM
@bgrishinko
Yeah that prophecy is way too generic...

Rand is going to break the chains of Padan Fain's soul, and turn him to the Light.

hahaha... you could say anything.

Lombard
02-04-2011, 10:44 PM
I personally believe that the dream Egwene has at the beginning of ToM with Rand severing the ropes holding together a cracked crystal is referring to him freeing the damane. The number 23 could refer either to the number of damane they captured during the huge battle, (or to the 21 sitters + amyrlin and keeper watching).

Eowyn
02-05-2011, 04:10 PM
I do think the damane will be freed, but I don't think Rand will have much of anything to do with it. More likely Egwene and Mat.

It's always been one of my pet theories that we will see Tuon channel before the MoL ends and this will lead to her freeing the damane.

Does anyone remember if Avi's viewing mentions damane or not?

FelixPax
02-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Rand already did attempt to free a damane once before, and she refused to be freed: Alivia.

Nynaeve & the Kin under Lan's suggestions ended up freeing Alivia from an a'dam, in Caemlyn.


As for a man freeing someone from "Chains", Mat Cauthon is a good candidate along with Elayne. At least Mat Cauthon already once freed the Sea Folk Windfinders, in Ebou Dar. Likewise Mat saved three Aes Sedai from the a'dam in the same city.

Elayne on the other hand, gained a promise from Egwene to free the Sea Folk Windfinders from White Tower control.


Regarding this quotation, "Luck his soul, the lightning his eyes", perhaps the later part is referring to a 'reflection of lightning' in his eye?

Originally Posted by CoT,Ch28 (as cited at eWOT)

"Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

Lightning thrown by channelers, in a fight? Seanchan vs White Tower.


It's always been one of my pet theories that we will see Tuon channel before the MoL ends and this will lead to her freeing the damane.

Re: Tuon channeling Pet Theory. Very nice theory indeed!

Freeing the damane, because of a prior promise & treaty with Mat Cauthon. Through Tuon's Truthspeaker absolutely should have a role in pushing Tuon to honor her promises & word, with Mat Cauthon. A person who once feared marath'damane will help free them: Selucia.

Terez
02-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Yeah, I am also in the camp of thinking Tuon will channel before the series is done, most likely quite on accident (as it was with Bethamin). The most obvious inspiration would be an endangered Mat, but I can also see her going for the Warder bond, if she happens to learn it from one of her damane.

What would be really awesome would be if Mat starts a tradition of the Deathwatch Guard being bonded to women who can channel. Who hopefully won't remain damane.

And yes, damane were mentioned in Aviendha's vision of the future; apparently at least 100 years into the future they still are being collared, along with men.

subwoofer
02-06-2011, 07:57 AM
Yeah, I'm not feeling the free the damane thing. In the books, for the most part, every time one of the damane are freed, they go running to the nearest Sul'dam and asked to be leashed again. For Rand to do anything of the sort, he would have to change the Empress, Tuon's mind about damane being people, not tools or property.

I dunno, maybe Rand breaking chains refers to breaking the chains off the DO's prison and forging them anew???

Juan
02-06-2011, 11:36 AM
Yeah, I agree, sub. Btw nice you see you around again.

I'm going to expand on what you said and why I'm not buying into the whole idea that the damane will be let free.

People assume that once Tuon channels (assuming she channels) she will realize the error of her ways and release her damane. Ok. Let's PRETEND she does channel, and let's also pretend she actually releases the damane. Note that Tuon is wiser than most in WOT.

What people seem to be forgetting is how about the other members of the High and Low Blood? Actually, even just people of all ranks in the Seanchan empire/society. Who's to say they will be as wise as Tuon assuming she is wise in that specific area herself? Most damane when freed beg to be leashed again. How can you break the long standing habit, tradition, and whatever other word fits here, that channelers must be leashed? It's way too hard to accomplish in even just a few years, no matter if Tuon is leading the way. Not just in the mind of the damane, but in the mind of the Blood? In the mind of everyone in Seanchan society? Assuming Tuon actually wants to and actually frees the damane, who's to say whether the damane would WANT to be freed? Who's to say people will stand for the freeing of creatures they thought should be leashed?

IF Seanchan were to cease from this practice, it would take a long, long time. You can't change this overnight. No way.

Eowyn
02-06-2011, 11:26 PM
I think I have to put myself firmly in the 'The damane will be set free' camp.

Given how we know RJ loves setting up plot lines books in advance, I can't see him spending so much time on how sul'dam can channel if that does not have some large impact on the plot (it hasn't at this point IMO). He even created minor characters to illustrate it and made Tuon a sul'dam.

If sul'dam (and Tuon) having the ability to channel led to the damane being let free, then RJ spending so much time on it makes sense. If the series ends with everything status quo in the Seanchan camp regarding damane, then it would be a major disappointment and an unfinished story line IMO.

Sudbury
02-07-2011, 03:06 AM
I personally believe that the dream Egwene has at the beginning of ToM with Rand severing the ropes holding together a cracked crystal is referring to him freeing the damane. The number 23 could refer either to the number of damane they captured during the huge battle, (or to the 21 sitters + amyrlin and keeper watching).

Could the cracked crystal be the Dark Ones prison and the ropes the last of the seals?

Terez
02-07-2011, 03:11 AM
That's what Egwene assumed, so that's almost certainly not the correct interpretation. The most logical meaning is that the crystal sphere represents the Aiel (a connection to the crystal columns attuned to the Aiel in Rhuidean), and the ropes are ji'e'toh. Rand cuts those ropes with the Dragon's Peace (since currently the only real way that the Aiel know how to earn ji is in battle). The 23 stars in that case would be the Council of Twenty-two (one clan chief and one Wise One from each clan), probably plus the lineage of the Dragon, which was sort of like an extra position among the Aiel in the years after the Last Battle (the chiefs and Wise Ones looked to them for advice).

Enigma
02-07-2011, 06:58 AM
Just because Egwene assumes its about the seals does not mean that she is wrong. RJ made a point of showing that even complete idiots get things right sometimes just by accident. Look at Pedron Neil's official spymaster. Hell even Elaida got somethings right so maybe this was Egwene's chance to be right for once.

maacaroni
02-07-2011, 08:26 AM
If I was a channeler, (and I'm not), surely if a'dams were the problem, you would go after the source.

Aes Sedai should go after the band instead of the channeler and kill anyone who can make them. Simples.

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2011, 08:36 AM
Tell Tuon she has to stop the damane system or else ...
Kill Tuon.
Tell new Emperor/Empress he/she has to stop the damane system or else ...
Kill the ...

After three months of this (and like 30 Emperors/Empresses), the Seanchan will cease to be a problem, one way or another.

And the death toll will be far less than it would be with the kind of massive wars needed to settle this in another way.

Bonus points for Egwene if she figures out that she can simply carry out the assasinations in TAR, thus bypassing all bodyguards.

Terez
02-07-2011, 12:40 PM
Just because Egwene assumes its about the seals does not mean that she is wrong. RJ made a point of showing that even complete idiots get things right sometimes just by accident. Look at Pedron Neil's official spymaster. Hell even Elaida got somethings right so maybe this was Egwene's chance to be right for once.
You might have a point if not for the evidence.

alleluia_cone
02-07-2011, 05:50 PM
Well, I have nothing to add really, but . . .

Did anybody else accidentally read the title of the thread as "Rand DOES the damane" -- then click on it thinking to read some crazy theory about Rand shagging Alivia only to come away a little disappointed when you realized that was not what the thread was about?

Terez
02-07-2011, 06:37 PM
Um....no?

FelixPax
02-07-2011, 06:41 PM
Well, I have nothing to add really, but . . .

Did anybody else accidentally read the title of the thread as "Rand DOES the damane" -- then click on it thinking to read some crazy theory about Rand shagging Alivia only to come away a little disappointed when you realized that was not what the thread was about?

Ohh... better Rand using a Domination Bond to shag Aviendha, Elayne in some bizarre alternative world storyline. Moridin's secret dreams become true... Kidding!!

Truly now, that's sad depressing humorless. Utterly, Morbid.


I cannot say, reading this thread title sent my mind off as it seems to have alleluia_cone. Not sure how freeing turned into shagging... but that's a theme for another thread in another forum: Non-WoT Discussions, perhaps? ;)

Terez
02-07-2011, 07:10 PM
mmmm, Moridin's secret dreams. I swear I will write a fanfic one day...

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2011, 04:16 AM
Well, I have nothing to add really, but . . .

Did anybody else accidentally read the title of the thread as "Rand DOES the damane" -- then click on it thinking to read some crazy theory about Rand shagging Alivia only to come away a little disappointed when you realized that was not what the thread was about?Only once, sort of.
I did one time misread the title in that way, but when I then opened the thread (which I'd posted in before) I quickly saw that I'd overlooked a word.

The Immortal One
02-08-2011, 09:02 PM
How can you break the long standing habit, tradition, and whatever other word fits here, that channelers must be leashed? . . . Not just in the mind of the damane, but in the mind of the Blood? In the mind of everyone in Seanchan society?

But that's just it. The Seanchan have been indoctrinated to believe that the Empress is perfect, the next thing to divinity. If the Empress makes an announcement all of the Seanchan Empire MUST believe it. The highest of the Blood may not actually come to believe - they are brought up to take all advantage of the weaknesses of their superiors in order to supplant them (like the Sith perhaps?) - but they will have to at least pretend to believe if only because of the Deathwatch Guard.

Given how we know RJ loves setting up plot lines books in advance, I can't see him spending so much time on how sul'dam can channel if that does not have some large impact on the plot (it hasn't at this point IMO). He even created minor characters to illustrate it and made Tuon a sul'dam.

I don't know, he put a lot of effort into Valan Luca too.

Terez
02-08-2011, 09:03 PM
Not really. I think Felix puts more effort into Luca than RJ did.

Eowyn
02-08-2011, 11:09 PM
I don't know, he put a lot of effort into Valan Luca too.

I always looked at Valan Luca and his traveling circus as just one more cultural group to add some atmosphere. Plus I think they did serve their purpose to the plot because they provided major characters convenient hiding places.

You could make the same argument about the Traveling People. If they don't find the song in AMoL then they also only serve to make the series culturally richer. Even the fact that they are so distantly related to the Aiel hasn't has any major plot implications.

But I think it is different with the sul'dam because they are potential channelers. If you think about all the channeling groups such as the Kin, the Wise Ones, the Windfinders, male channelers....all their story lines are being wrapped up. The big exception is the damane and sul'dam. Yes, the series could end with status quo, but that would be a huge let down IMO.

I know Robert Jordan liked to pull from historical references, and damane are the closest thing to slavery, with all the Seanchan talk of property. If the light were to have a complete victory, that would mean leaving an enlightened people. Their is nothing enlightened about having people in chains (the symbolism of the a'dam is important here).

Cor Shan
02-09-2011, 02:41 AM
The damane are de jure slaves. Da* is the prefix meaning "owned" or slave (also da'covale, the other slaves)

Terez
02-09-2011, 03:18 AM
Actually the stem cov- implies ownership, like mia'cova (my owner). If damane means 'leashed ones' then da'covale probably means 'owned ones'.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2011, 04:29 AM
According to the BWB, da'covale means "those who are property", and covale means "property".

Sudbury
02-09-2011, 05:45 AM
Perhaps the act of sealing the bore renders not just the True Power but also the one power inaccessible hence freeing damane would be academic

Maybe the weakening of the DO prison starts with the one power coming back on line during or at the end of the first age

I am assuming the next age is the first age when the bore is as though it had never existed rather than a fourth age where it is just patched

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2011, 06:33 AM
Maybe sealing the bore will accidentally dissolve all a'dam and e've. Wouldn't that be a surprise?

Enigma
02-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Does the world have the time for the damane to be freed before the Last Battle? We have seen that any damane who has been fully 'trained' and then released takes some time to cope with her freedom. Most of them want to be leashed again and are totally lacking in experience in making any decisions for themselves.

If all the damane were to be freed straght away I doubt if most of them would be able to adapt fast enought given the last battle has already begun.

After the last battle who knows if Rand will be around? If he has defeated the DO and saved the world he has moral authority and a lot of people will probably be greatful but he is not really needed any more and I could see a lot of his powerbase start to drift back to their own lives which would seriously cut into his authority.

jana
02-09-2011, 05:34 PM
I don't think they will be freed, but it will be implied that they're going to be freed.

Marie Curie 7
02-18-2011, 10:30 PM
I always looked at Valan Luca and his traveling circus as just one more cultural group to add some atmosphere. Plus I think they did serve their purpose to the plot because they provided major characters convenient hiding places.

The reason why Valan Luca's traveling circus made it into WoT: :)

Elf Fantasy Fair 8 April 2001 - Aan'allein reporting

Q: A question about influences in his writing...

RJ: It's hard really for a figure that I've been researching for the Wheel of Time. I see things, I notice things. I realize 'I can use this.' An example I've used to you before, but it's a good one, is that [after leaving Tanchico, Nynaeve and Elayne needed] traveling companions. I wanted them to travel with some people, rather than by themselves. I wasn't too sure exactly what sort of group I was going to use. And I happened to go to the circus.

And the circus happened to have a lot of acts that . . . from Asia. I don't know why they seemed to have such a disproportionate number of acts from Asia. They were much different than most European circus acts and American circus acts, which are very similar to European circus acts. And when I went to my desk the next morning, I realized I knew exactly how Elayne and Nynaeve were going to travel. With Valan Luca's show. I have read for close on to fifty years, everything I could get my hands on. Various bits and pieces have been stuck in my head. And I use them. And sometimes... and if I see anything that's interesting, and a lot of things interest me, cultural anthropology, development of cities, how a windmill works, how does a waterwheel work? these things interest me, as much as how a modern day skyscraper is built, or how do you go about building a base on the moon, or how do you go about building an industrial facility in an L5-point.

Juan
02-18-2011, 11:09 PM
That's why Luca and his circus made it into the story. But that in no way says what his objective in the story is. He definitely played a bigger role than just helping out Elayne. He's been quite active. I'm not saying he's going to do the things Felix claims he will. But he's served quite a few objectives.. I doubt he will play another role in the last book. Just doesn't seem like there'll be time for him. But we'll see.

Zombie Sammael
02-19-2011, 08:52 AM
The Empress channeling is one important thing that would need to happen for the Damane to be freed. The second is that a'dam themselves must be destroyed. One way I can think of doing this might be by transforming the whole structure into cuendillar.

Freeing the damane would cause massive social change in the Seanchan empire, enough to cause them to have to abandon their conquest of the Wetlands. Perhaps Aviendha and the Aiel might play some role in this?

The other person who appears to be key is Mat Cauthon. "That's not a damane, that's my bloody sister!" anyone?

Kimon
02-19-2011, 12:20 PM
That's why Luca and his circus made it into the story. But that in no way says what his objective in the story is. He definitely played a bigger role than just helping out Elayne. He's been quite active. I'm not saying he's going to do the things Felix claims he will. But he's served quite a few objectives.. I doubt he will play another role in the last book. Just doesn't seem like there'll be time for him. But we'll see.

We can only hope. Those circus chapters were even more dreadfully boring than the Perrin-centric chapters. But then I hate the circus- clowns are creepy, and elephants smell even worse than horses.