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Terez
02-06-2011, 10:26 PM
It's been so long that I would be really surprised if no one else has discussed this (I've been paying less attention in the last year or so), but I have been mulling over this prophecy from TOM:

This is it, Min thought, tapping the page. She sat on her windowsill in the Stone of Tear, enjoying the breeze. Trying not to think of Rand. He wasn't hurt, but his emotions were so strong. Anger. She'd hoped he wouldn't be so angry ever again.

She shook off the worrying; she had work to do. Was she following the wrong thread? Was she interpreting in the wrong way? She read the line again. Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.I have been thinking of this one in terms of end game action because Min seems to see it that way, but what if it has to do with the origin of the link? I think some here have theorized that the link between Rand and Moridin originated not in the stream-crossing incident, but elsewhere. I think Ieyasu theorized it was via the wound Rand got in Falme from Ishamael's staff.

The main argument for the stream-crossing being the genesis of the link is the sickness connection. Rand's sickness starts right after, and also his visions of Moridin's face in his mind, and Moridin shows signs of sickness in those visions later on. What if the stream-crossing merely aggravated the link between them, and gave Rand a heads-up that Moridin hadn't intended on letting him have (aside from the other difficulties)? He says he doesn't understand the link between them, but he lies. And Brandon says Rand doesn't have prophetic dreams - he was very insistent about that - so obviously Ishamael had plans for their inevitable merge way back in TEOTW (ch 24).

I considered based on a few vague comments by Brandon that the prophecy above might have been in reference to Rand's use of the Power of the Eye at Shayol Ghul - he thought of it as 'the Light', since he was not really comfortable with the idea of channeling yet.

But assuming that it really does refer to Callandor, there is still another opportunity for an early linkage. Ishamael's own 'to live, you must die' moment?

...he was in the Heart of the Stone again, stalking through the rubbled gap that had been a wall. Some of the columns hung like broken teeth, now. And Ba'alzamon backed away from him, eyes burning, shadow cloaking him. Black lines like steel wires seemed to run off from Ba'alzamon into the darkness mounding around him, vanishing into unimaginable heights and distances within that blackness.

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel-black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

Ba'alzamon screamed, and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he howled. "The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

I have done it, he thought. I have killed Ba'alzamon, killed Shai'tan! I have won the Last Battle! Light, I AM the Dragon Reborn! The breaker of nations, the Breaker of the World. No! I will END the breaking, end the killing! I will MAKE it end!

He raised Callandor above his head. Silver lightning crackled from the blade, jagged streaks arching toward the great dome above. "Stop!" he shouted. The fighting ceased; men stared at him in wonder, over black veils, from beneath the rims of round helmets. "I am Rand al'Thor!" he called, so his voice rang through the chamber. "I am the Dragon Reborn!" Callandor shone in his grasp.One by one, veiled men and helmeted, they knelt to him, crying, "The Dragon is Reborn! The Dragon is Reborn!"Also worth noting is that the shadow didn't vanish when Rand cut the cords - that was only his protection from the taint of saidin which he obviously didn't need anyway.

Brandon accused RJ of being sort of dodgy on the issue of the black cords and what they were about. Part of that is in seemingly-contradictory quotes:

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/ACOS_signings.html)


Q: New Dreadlords? Via True Power? What are limits of True Power? When did we see it used before?
RJ: Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World, we saw Ishamael use the True Power to Heal insanity. The One Power can not be used to Heal insanity. True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.
Budapest Q&A - April 2003 (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcjspjqg_101f6s22v73&hl=en)

Q: What happens when Rand and Asmodean have this conflict and ...
Q1: ... and Rand severs his ties with the Dark One ...
Q2: ... and Rand severs some black ties. Isn't that ...
RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw, it was not the same thing as stilling or severing, it was more like shielding.Anyway, back to Min's prophecy. I don't have a problem with the idea that Rand and Moridin have been linked as far back as this. It even might give a bit more in the way of justification for why Rand started getting Lews Therin's memories, either as a mechanism or as a matter of balance in the Pattern. Brandon said that the taint was certainly one factor in the genesis of Lews Therin's memories, but not the only thing going on.

I don't really have any solid beliefs on this - just throwing out some ideas.

Bluedust
02-06-2011, 11:03 PM
Well, I'd say it's from the Balefire, I just don't see any reason why a simple weapon hit on Rand, then absolutely no evidence to any link after that for books on books until the Balefire incident occurs could show the link happened there.

Also I vaguely remember reading a new quote on the nature of Balefire, and that it basically exists outside time or something. I think it was in your QA Database but I'm having trouble finding it.

I just think a True Source Balefire and True Power Balefire both hitting eachother makes much more sense considering the crazy nature of Balefire itself. But who knows, we know their threads have been intertwined in the past.

Ieyasu
02-07-2011, 12:30 AM
Well, I'd say it's from the Balefire, I just don't see any reason why a simple weapon hit on Rand, then absolutely no evidence to any link after that for books on books until the Balefire incident occurs could show the link happened there.

Also I vaguely remember reading a new quote on the nature of Balefire, and that it basically exists outside time or something. I think it was in your QA Database but I'm having trouble finding it.

I just think a True Source Balefire and True Power Balefire both hitting eachother makes much more sense considering the crazy nature of Balefire itself. But who knows, we know their threads have been intertwined in the past.

It is far from a simple weapon wound. Simple weapon wounds are Heal-able. They are not described as gaping black holes etc etc that everyone who has ever attempted to heal it, described it as.

I vaguely remember talking about the Falme battle, though I would attribute it more to the Pattern Level Events occurring there, rather than the staff wound itself.

I am not discounting the crossed stream theory, I just feel a link between them has existed longer than that stream crossing.

I can see the link possibly predating Rand's birth as well.

Got a link for that thread Terez?

bgrishinko
02-07-2011, 01:28 AM
Ishmael seems to imply all throughout TEotW that they have been tied together forever. They will be spun out to fight in all ages as the greatest adversaries and whatnot. I think their ties to each other may be as simple as that. I like how you say that the Balefire crossing aggravated it though. It kinda throws their threads outta whack.

Terez
02-07-2011, 03:20 AM
Got a link for that thread Terez?
Nah, I was just going on vague recollection. And then there's the fact that Brandon refuses to confirm the stream-crossing as the cause of the link. Sometimes he's just being safe and not wanting to reveal too much, but he might just be implying that the assumption is not correct.

FelixPax
02-07-2011, 05:36 PM
Nah, I was just going on vague recollection. And then there's the fact that Brandon refuses to confirm the stream-crossing as the cause of the link. Sometimes he's just being safe and not wanting to reveal too much, but he might just be implying that the assumption is not correct.


I suspect the link between Rand al'Thor and Moridin is a combination of factors, not at all "caused" by the crossing of balefire streams. It goes back spans further back than that single event, to at least three known events & one off-scene event:



A 'Dream' of Rand's in tEotW book, where Ishamael draws Rand's Blood. (Ditto Perrin, Mat. That's one reason why Mat had to die, to live again: to break any blood link created.)
A scene in a Mirror World, in TGH book, where Ishamael claims that Rand can access the 'Power': hints at the True Power, granted by the Dark One. However Rand is scared of Saidar... and doesn't know what the True Power is yet.
A battle in Rhuidean in tSR book, fought between Rand and Asmodean, where Rand "visualizes becoming one with the Steel Cords". Thus, one with the Dark One.


Perhaps one of most important scenes is "off-scene", where the Dark One at Shayol Ghul grants a reborn Ishamael, a new name (Moridin), a new body and secret ability: the bizarre two-way link to Rand al'Thor.



Parallels do exist between:



Isam-Luc and Rand-Moridin;
Mindtrap and 'Bizarre Two-way Link'



As for a source of what's possibly at Shayol Ghul under the direction of the Dark One, I suggest taking at deeper look at Moghedien's comments in her points of view.


In those stunned moments, the Myrddraal forced her mouth open, scraped the blade along her tongue, then nicked her ear. And as it straightened with her blood and saliva, she knew, even before it produced what appeared to be a tiny, fragile cage of gold wire and crystal. Some things could only be done here, some only to those who could channel, and she had brought a number of men and women for this very purpose.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view


Only Rand can 'channel', so that partially explains why neither Mat Cauthon nor Perrin have a similar 'bizarre two-way link' to Moridin or other Chosen picked out by the Dark One.


How's that for starters?

Seeker
02-08-2011, 11:55 AM
Well, I'd say it's from the Balefire, I just don't see any reason why a simple weapon hit on Rand, then absolutely no evidence to any link after that for books on books until the Balefire incident occurs could show the link happened there.

And two destructo beams hitting each other would? This is one of those rare plot points of the series that I've never liked. I just... I don't get it. If anything, givern what we know about balefire, THIS should have happened.

_______________________________________________
Twisting to look over his shoulder, he saw Mashadar. Not a tendril but a shining silver-gray wave rolling out of one of the balconies, arching over their heads. Descending.

Without a thought, his free hand rose and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly, he was aware of another bar of pale, solid fire from the other man's hand that was not clasping his; a bar slashing the other way from his. The two touched.

Rand's balefire was gone. There was no flash, no sound as the two streams touched; the balefire simply winked out as if it had never been. So did the weave that created it. Rand glanced over his shoulder to see a look of shock on the other man. There was no time for thought, however. With the negation of their balefire, all that had been wrought with it had been undone. Mashadar descended upon them in a roiling cloud. Rand and the strange fellow spun and broke into a run.

They scrambled down a street lined with the ruins of broken buildings, darkened windows peering down at them like watchful eyes. All the while, a wave of silver-gray mist pursued them. Rand's chest heaved. He felt sweat upon his brow. His hands pumped like the pistons of one of Idrien's machines. Glancing over his shoulder, he snarled, baring teeth. "What happened?"

"Our weaves have been undone," said the other. "Two streams negated each other."
______________________________________________




I just think a True Source Balefire and True Power Balefire both hitting eachother makes much more sense considering the crazy nature of Balefire itself. But who knows, we know their threads have been intertwined in the past.


This is another part of the theory that I do not get. Why does it matter if Rand uses saidin and Moridin the True Power. Balefire is Balefire. Why wouldn't the effect be the same if Rand used saidin and Moridin did so as well?

Mort
02-08-2011, 06:43 PM
I would guess that balefire only works on physical matters, energies not included, but maybe it would be just as effective in eradicating lightning for example. A beam given the properties it has should have very odd effects.

Two (negative?) energies that both at the same time tries to destroy and erase each other from the pattern (before the event itself) should at the least create some kind of funky paradox, divide by zero or infinite loop. When it can't break the loop/paradox, maybe it latches onto the wielders.

Some kind of mind-melt isn't high up on the "likely outcomes list" though. I would have expected some kind of massive energy burst (think ka-boooom) or the opposite, an implosion of sorts.

Since Ghostbusters are the experts on crossing beams, can they help in any way? :)

Seeker
02-08-2011, 06:54 PM
Balefire would destroy lightning. Lightning is not (in and of itself) energy but matter. It is free-moving electrons. If balefire intersected with lightning, the electrons it touched would be gone.

Consequently, web-breakers will not protect you from lightning (or fireballs) since neither are direct manifestations of the One Power. Causing a lightning bolt to hit someone is similar to throwing a table at them on flows of Air. You are manipulating the physical world in a lethal way. That's why Rahvin's lightning killed Mat.

Web-breakers will, however, protect you from balefire since it is not a part of the physical world and is a direct manifestation of the One Power. However, if I am correct, your clothes will vanish where the balefire touches you.

Marie Curie 7
02-13-2011, 01:34 PM
This is another part of the theory that I do not get. Why does it matter if Rand uses saidin and Moridin the True Power. Balefire is Balefire. Why wouldn't the effect be the same if Rand used saidin and Moridin did so as well?

Well, I would say that the effect is likely to be different between True Power/One Power balefire streams because RJ told us that interactions between the Dark One and the One Power were unpredictable:

TOR Questions of the Week, February 2005-July 2005

Week 9 Question: We've read in the Forsaken's points of view that channeling in the Pit of Doom would have some...unpleasant...effects. Is this related to the nature of the opposition of the One Power to the True Power or is it the Dark One consciously acting against the channeler? If so, why should the Dark One care?

Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.

Since the True Power is the essence of the Dark One, I would also expect interactions between the One Power and the True Power to be somewhat unpredictable. Thus, I don't think it's at all strange to imagine that the interaction between Rand's and Moridin's balefire streams led to some odd effects.