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joep
02-10-2011, 12:34 PM
There are a lot of theories on this floating around, including Min's theory on callandor.

I believe the three becoming one refers to LTT, Rand and Moridin. Part of this has already been fulfilled, as Rand and LTT have merged. All that remains is for Moridin to join them, which is likely to occur.

Any thoughts on this?

Terez
02-10-2011, 01:39 PM
Seeing as how Rand and Lews Therin are 'not two men, and never had been', it seems unlikely.

1Powerslave
02-10-2011, 02:12 PM
Seeing as how Rand and Lews Therin are 'not two men, and never had been', it seems unlikely.
They were separate whether you believe LTT was real or just a case of split personality. So calling it merging, reintegration or similar fits.

@Joep
I agree that what you describe is a good candidate for the three becoming one.

bgrishinko
02-10-2011, 03:59 PM
Obviously it refers to Fain merging with Slayer to become the Ultimate Evil Thing, then he steals Callandor... and, uh, uses it as a normal sword.

Well that idea started cool then kind of wimpered out.

Seeker
02-10-2011, 05:48 PM
They were separate whether you believe LTT was real or just a case of split personality. So calling it merging, reintegration or similar fits.

No.

Rand is Lews Therin; Rand always was Lews Therin. One man, two names. There is no "they." There is only Rand.

The novels say it right out "For they were not two men and NEVER had been." Any supposition to the contrary is a deliberate misinterpretation of this bit of text. I don't know why people keep insisting on doing so.

Rand was always Lews Therin. The only "difference" between the pair of them existed solely in Rand's mind. Talk of "separations" between Rand and Lews Therin or "barriers" between Rand and Lews Therin are the result of Rand not having a ****ing clue how reincarnation works, and using his own flawed interpretation. Rand wanted to believe he was not Lews Therin so that he could absolve himself of the guilt he feels for the things he did in the Age of Legends.

But Rand's POV is wrong.

On this subject, he is an unreliable narrator. He is - and has always been - Lews Therin.

ShadowbaneX
02-10-2011, 07:42 PM
No.

Rand is Lews Therin; Rand always was Lews Therin. One man, two names. There is no "they." There is only Rand.

The novels say it right out "For they were not two men and NEVER had been." Any supposition to the contrary is a deliberate misinterpretation of this bit of text. I don't know why people keep insisting on doing so.

Rand was always Lews Therin. The only "difference" between the pair of them existed solely in Rand's mind. Talk of "separations" between Rand and Lews Therin or "barriers" between Rand and Lews Therin are the result of Rand not having a ****ing clue how reincarnation works, and using his own flawed interpretation. Rand wanted to believe he was not Lews Therin so that he could absolve himself of the guilt he feels for the things he did in the Age of Legends.

But Rand's POV is wrong.

On this subject, he is an unreliable narrator. He is - and has always been - Lews Therin.
To play the DO's advocate, this is a unique case. Mat is similar, but those are just bits and pieces, not an entire person's existance. No one else in history literally has access to their previous memory in the way that Rand has. While is he and always was Lews Therin Telamon, you cannot deny that he does have his previous incarnation's memories in his head.

Granted, the three will become one is likely something else, but if he were to get a third person's memories shoved into his head, that could qualify for the Three Shall be One. Rand himself points out at the end of the book that his ability to completely access those memories was only a very recently thing. "If only a month before" etc, etc.

bgrishinko
02-10-2011, 07:44 PM
You know, I feel better in the mindset that LTT is actually Rand. They are one person, but they feel different as people and characters. So we as readers don't like thinking of them as the same. LTT never had the Two Rivers upbringing and is therefore a very different character. Rand used to think they were two people, and as such the 3 become one could still apply in a non-literal sense.

Yet... they are one and the same soul. I look it as Birgitte. It is easy for us to see her as the same person in all her lives. But I would bet that despite the similarities in all her lives, she had different personalities and many habits were probably different. The core of who she is will always be the same though. Her current Hero form is an accumulation of all her lives together. If there was a reference to a woman who was 1,000 women becoming one, that would explain very well her current situation.

Rand has become 2 people becoming 1 so far.
The experiences of the 2 lives have inexplicably been melded together into a new version of Rand. He is not what LTT was, he is not the same Rand we have known at any point in the series. I'd say he is the Hero version of the Dragon. I hope his Hero name is Rand and not Lews Therin though. :)

But I argue that the 3 combine into 1 still applies to Rand for this reason. His merging of Moridin is a more literal due to beam crossings.

Eowyn
02-10-2011, 10:20 PM
Obviously it refers to Fain merging with Slayer to become the Ultimate Evil Thing, then he steals Callandor... and, uh, uses it as a normal sword.

Well that idea started cool then kind of wimpered out.

Of course that would be four becoming one to form the Ultimate Evil Thing...

Fain/Mordeth + Isam/Luc

Now THAT would be some merge.

bgrishinko
02-11-2011, 01:14 AM
Of course that would be four becoming one to form the Ultimate Evil Thing...

Fain/Mordeth + Isam/Luc

Now THAT would be some merge.

Just for good measure, lets throw in Rand/LTT + Moridin and the universe will explode!:eek:

ScoundrelTheToy
02-11-2011, 02:57 AM
I like the 3 ta'vern using their swirls to become 1 per Zoroastrianism. It makes the most sense.

Terez
02-11-2011, 03:59 AM
Well, since Brandon took the assumption of Callandor and the circle of three for granted, it most likely refers to that after all. (Someone asked him who the third person would be, and he said she has already been introduced.) But if it's not that, then it probably refers to the bond that will be necessary to resurrect Rand. It's even described that way (the three lines of the bond are twined into one before the bond is laid on Rand).

FelixPax
02-11-2011, 05:09 AM
I like the 3 ta'vern using their swirls to become 1 per Zoroastrianism. It makes the most sense.

Umm... NO.



Callandor (can literally means: "to call"-"the eagle of lightning")
Rand
Alivia (a virgin sacrifice. Why? Fits Slav tales of Baba Yaga & the four Maidens)
Mierin (a newly wed, who dies next to her 'man')



Who attacks them?


Moridin.
Padan Fain.



One can find Rand when he channels (Moridin), the other can find Rand when he does not channel (Creature Formerly Known As--Prince--err Fain!).

Two separate events. Two separate individuals guiding the weaves once: Mierin, Rand. Together they shall overcome all.


Sealing the Bore
Flaying, Frying, Burying Shadowspawn everywhere at once. No Shadow left. Only Pure Light.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2011, 05:13 AM
Rand is Lews Therin; Rand always was Lews Therin. One man, two names. There is no "they." There is only Rand.Does that mean that even in the Age of Legends, LTT was just a figment of Rand's imagination?

The novels say it right out "For they were not two men and NEVER had been." Any supposition to the contrary is a deliberate misinterpretation of this bit of text. I don't know why people keep insisting on doing so.Perhaps, possibly, because your misinterpretation of the interpretation of others is not the only way of doing so.

I think that Rand misinterpreted the situation, or formulated it in a way that makes some of us (not me, obviously) draw the wrong conclusion.

But Rand's POV is wrong.

On this subject, he is an unreliable narrator. He is - and has always been - Lews Therin.So you admit that Rand is unreliable, and from that you conclude that we should utterly and completely rely on what he thinks. Neat trick, that. I think there's a bit of a flaw in your thinking, of course, but that is just a detail I'm sure you'll fix. Eventually.

Consider a somewhat different example, one that I'm making up right now:
Suppose that Rand's personality from just before the start of TEOTW had been downloaded into a computer, and then stored on a hard disk. True, there aren't any real indications this was possible within the constraints of the story, but that doesn't worry me. Now suppose that somewhere in TSR, or TFOH (you may choose) the download was reuploaded into Rand's brain again. Then there would be two Rand's sloshing about in his mind, both arguing that they were real. The truth would be, obviously, that both were actually real. They were different, but they were also the same person.
And, apart from some details, that's what happened to LTT.

Terez
02-11-2011, 05:37 AM
Does that mean that even in the Age of Legends, LTT was just a figment of Rand's imagination?
Oh please, Gonzo. No one ever said Lews Therin was a figment of Rand's imagination. Only the idea that Lews Therin was 'another man' was a figment of his imagination. As Rand said...he was always Lews Therin, and Lews Therin was always Rand.

I think that Rand misinterpreted the situation, or formulated it in a way that makes some of us (not me, obviously) draw the wrong conclusion.He misinterpreted it when he was influenced by the taint madness. Do you think that Rand had it right all along when he was growing more insane by the day, but that at the moment his brain was warded against the taint madness, he all of a sudden came to the wrong conclusion?

Really?

So you admit that Rand is unreliable, and from that you conclude that we should utterly and completely rely on what he thinks. Neat trick, that. I think there's a bit of a flaw in your thinking, of course, but that is just a detail I'm sure you'll fix. Eventually.You're being awfully lazy today, aren't you?

Consider a somewhat different example, one that I'm making up right now:
Suppose that Rand's personality from just before the start of TEOTW had been downloaded into a computer, and then stored on a hard disk. True, there aren't any real indications this was possible within the constraints of the story, but that doesn't worry me. Now suppose that somewhere in TSR, or TFOH (you may choose) the download was reuploaded into Rand's brain again. Then there would be two Rand's sloshing about in his mind, both arguing that they were real.That is where you make your first leap.

The truth would be, obviously, that both were actually real.The truth would be, obviously, that both were Rand, and the same person despite any possible misconceptions such as you describe above.

They were different, but they were also the same person.And how, exactly, were they different? I'm talking about recent memory, when Rand begins remembering Lews Therin. You could say, "Oh, but Lews Therin could draw, and Rand could not." But as soon as Rand remembered that he could draw in Far Madding, the distinction became completely irrelevant. Rand could draw. He didn't have to ask Lews Therin to take over, or to tell him how to do it. There are some personality differences, but they were never delineated so clearly during the construct phase.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2011, 06:25 AM
One obvious way in which they were different was that LTT did not have the TR attitude of "women have to be protected, even if they don't want it or don't deserve it".

ScoundrelTheToy
02-11-2011, 07:50 AM
Umm... NO.



Callandor (can literally means: "to call"-"the eagle of lightning")
Rand
Alivia (a virgin sacrifice. Why? Fits Slav tales of Baba Yaga & the four Maidens)
Mierin (a newly wed, who dies next to her 'man')



Who attacks them?


Moridin.
Padan Fain.



One can find Rand when he channels (Moridin), the other can find Rand when he does not channel (Creature Formerly Known As--Prince--err Fain!).

Two separate events. Two separate individuals guiding the weaves once: Mierin, Rand. Together they shall overcome all.


Sealing the Bore
Flaying, Frying, Burying Shadowspawn everywhere at once. No Shadow left. Only Pure Light.


You really do take a left-field approach to things, most of the time Felix lol. I take the 'logical' approach usually (I imagine there are those that would argue my 'theories' on my allusion post are crazy, but I still stand by them ;p), due to it being the approach that Jordan seems to have favored throughout the series. What makes it logical is, Jordan used mythical references to almost everything that happens in WoT; Linda's research into all this on the Thirteenth Depository opened my eyes to this. Well, Linda and Doma I would credit most, so thanks to them for 'opening my eyes'.

If there were 10 names and it was multiple choice, as on a test, and I could only pick two of them: They would be Moiraine and Nynaeve. Alivia and Mierin are possibilities, but very less likely. So if you want to choose your two that are very unlikely and play in left-field so to speak, that's your choice.

Anyways, I pretty much agree with Linda's 'theorizing' that the 'three becoming one' will be a combination of Mat/Perrin/Rand using their swirls to become one at the same time that Rand is linked with two woman using Callandor. The instant I read this line in TGS, I thought ta'vern * sardonic laugh*.

He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the Three shall become one.

Callandor = blade of light(duh yeah?), also implies him using Callandor to battle the Dark One, which we know he will do in a circle of Three. At this moment, the 3 ta'vern will use their Pattern influence mojo and combine it into one (just holding their visions of each other for once...all at the same time to boot; a huge Pattern moment etc.) to stabilize Rand to give him the strength he'll need to confront a God.

I am somewhat skeptical of the third in the circle being Moiraine though. Depending on what she actually gained from the Eelfinn (the memories of Mieren as 1 of her wishes, would be the 'smartest' wish she could use I would think, and Moiraine is uber intelligent), she could be of use elsewhwere. Tuon would be my other choice in place of Moiraine, but eh...just doesn't work as well for me, lotta hoops to jump through too fast at this point for it to be Tuon. But Moiraine being there with Rand to battle the Dark One seems most appropriate to me. If I could pick two woman to be at my side for an occasion such as this, it would certainly be Nynaeve and Moiraine though! Not a chance in hell would I risk the world to trusting the likes of Meiren especially, but Alivia as well, to battle a God; a God one of them has served for the past three thousand years no less.

The bond of the three woman to Rand I attribute to being important to his resurrection in some way I don't understand. This is assuming that he will be 'revived' in some manner, after he 'dies' of course.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2011, 07:59 AM
Alternative interpretation: it's a typo.

The real prophecy was "the tree shall be one", referring to Avendesora as the last of its kind.

ScoundrelTheToy
02-11-2011, 08:16 AM
That's pretty good, I like it.

The Lords Gift
02-11-2011, 10:30 AM
I believe the three becoming one refers to LTT, Rand and Moridin. Part of this has already been fulfilled, as Rand and LTT have merged. All that remains is for Moridin to join them, which is likely to occur.

To come to this conclusion it seems depends on how you define the merging - is it a merging of souls or a merging of personalities?

If it was personalities then this option seems viable enough, since i don't think anyone could argue that Rand and Lews Therin had the EXACT same personality, which is a product of the life someone lives, and Rand seems to have a hybrid personality as of ToM. But of course then the argument over whether LTT was a real person or just a taint-madness induced voice would come into play.

But if the merging was one of souls then arguing that Rand and LTT are separate on that front is I think something only someone who hasn't even read the series could do, and naturally this theory makes zero sense since there would be only two different souls.

I don't think this is right since to me a merging of personalities doesn't seem like something that would help Lightside defeat the DO. Personally, I think "the three" refers to the 3 ta'veren. I'm not too firm on why other than the fact that the theory of a mega-awesome-super ta'veren effect being created from the merging which causes the pattern to remake itself over the Bore is one that i could definitely see occuring

elroyskimms
02-11-2011, 02:01 PM
I posted this idea a while back on Tor's site during one of the re-reads, but I don't remember if anyone had any thoughts on it.

My guess, is that the three becoming one is that both parts of the One Power need to be used together with the True Power. Several reasons why I like this:

(1) The DO strictly controls who he will give access to the TP, and how much they can channel. The Chosen see it as a reward, but it could also be how the DO limits those who might be able to lock him up permanently.

(2) The Hundred Companions failed and the DO's response tainted saidin. I think had there been women in the Hundred Companion's, Saidar would have been tainted too. So we need more than both parts of the OP to make the Seal permanent. If Rand just brings Saidar and Saidin to the Bore, there is no way to prevent the DO from tainting both parts of the OP.

(3) Rand's vulcan mind meld with Ishy gives him access to the TP, access that the DO does not know about. The TP would be immune from any taint by the DO. So using the TP in a circle with both parts of the OP, would prevent the DO from being able to taint Saidar and Saidin.

-E

FelixPax
02-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Scoundrel do you enjoy employing vaguely ad hoc statements?


And yes I'll read Linda's articles... through one problem with Linda's research style is she tends to rely on too few materials relative to what Robert Jordan himself has 'claimed' to have used in interviews. Let alone what Brandon Sanderson has claimed Robert Jordan used as sources.

In what areas has Linda missed among others?



Estonian,
Bulgarian,
Hungarian,
Miao/Hmong,
Sea Peoples found in Southeast Asia.



Who did Linda decide not to follow up in detail upon?

Ganesha, whom Robert Jordan dropped big hints in his blog. Let alone having a sandstone statue of in his office.


Linda also missed the importance of Robert Jordan's repeatedly expressed joy for another fellow author & peer in interviews: Robert Heinlein.


Why is Robert Heinlein's important in terms of Wheel of the Time?

Because Jordan inserted one of Heinlein's book titles into the Wheel of Time directly:


The two women had to support him, one on either arm, down to where the campfires were already burning, not far from a road of hard-packed dirt. Loial was there, reading a book, To Sail Beyond the Sunset, and Perrin, staring into one of the fires. The Shienarans were making preparations for their evening meal. Lan sat under a tree sharpening his sword; the Warder gave Rand a careful look, then a nod.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 49 "What Was Meant To Be -- Rand point of view

Seeker
02-13-2011, 08:17 PM
Does that mean that even in the Age of Legends, LTT was just a figment of Rand's imagination?

No, it means that in the Age of Legends, Rand led the Hall of Servants and called himself Lews Therin.


So you admit that Rand is unreliable, and from that you conclude that we should utterly and completely rely on what he thinks. Neat trick, that. I think there's a bit of a flaw in your thinking, of course, but that is just a detail I'm sure you'll fix. Eventually.

No, I'm not asking you to rely solely on Rand's opinions. The novels make it clear in a dozen different ways that Rand is Lews Therin. For one thing, he's the Dragon Reborn and Lews Therin was the Dragon. What precisely do you think 'reborn' means?

If that isn't enough for you, here's a quote from Moiraine on how reincarnation works.

”As the Wheel of Time turns," Moiraine said, half to herself and with a distant look in her eyes, "places wear many names. Men wear many names, many faces. Different faces, but always the same man.

The Heroes refer to Rand as 'Lews Therin.'
The Dark One refers to Rand as 'Lews Therin.'

Rand is Lews Therin. Rand has always been Lews Therin.

Lews Therin has always been Rand.

Only the superfluous details change: the name, the face, the mannerisms. The core of who he is remains the same from life to life.

Consider a somewhat different example, one that I'm making up right now:
Suppose that Rand's personality from just before the start of TEOTW had been downloaded into a computer, and then stored on a hard disk. True, there aren't any real indications this was possible within the constraints of the story, but that doesn't worry me. Now suppose that somewhere in TSR, or TFOH (you may choose) the download was reuploaded into Rand's brain again. Then there would be two Rand's sloshing about in his mind, both arguing that they were real. The truth would be, obviously, that both were actually real. They were different, but they were also the same person.
And, apart from some details, that's what happened to LTT.

No, actually that doesn't make any sense at all. The only reason that Rand's personality was influenced by regaining the memories of his former life is because he did not have those memories originally.

If you were to dump the sum of Rand's memories and personality from just before the Eye of the World into Rand's mind during the Fires of Heaven, nothing would change. Because you would be adding no new knowledge to the equation.

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2011, 06:07 AM
If you were to dump the sum of Rand's memories and personality from just before the Eye of the World into Rand's mind during the Fires of Heaven, nothing would change. Because you would be adding no new knowledge to the equation.It took Rand quite a while to come to terms with being able to channel, being the Dragon Reborn, being able to channel, having to lead people who were much older than he is, being able to channel, and oh, did I mention being able to channel?

If his personality from before the start of the series suddenly had to deal with all that at once, then the most likely result would be the kind of avoidance and denial which he displayed in the first couple of books. Have that interacting with trying to deal with being the leader of the Aiel, ruler of Tear, conqueror of Cairhien and opponent of a bunch of Forsaken, and the result would have been a lot of confusion in Rand's head.

More or less the same happened when, instead of his personality of a couple of years before, his personality from a previous life started interfering with his current life.

Seeker
02-14-2011, 11:32 AM
It took Rand quite a while to come to terms with being able to channel, being the Dragon Reborn, being able to channel, having to lead people who were much older than he is, being able to channel, and oh, did I mention being able to channel?

Yes, but Rand had already dealt with all that and come to terms with it. Filling his mind with memories and attitudes that he already has won't change anything. Rand probably wouldn't even notice.

More or less the same happened when, instead of his personality of a couple of years before, his personality from a previous life started interfering with his current life.

No... The taint interfered with Rand's life and caused him to hallucinate, to hear voices that weren't there.

Rand then named these voices "Lews Therin" because he could not accept that HE is Lews Therin.

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2011, 11:52 AM
No... The taint interfered with Rand's life and caused him to hallucinate, to hear voices that weren't there.Prove it. Get an unambiguous statement by RJ saying that LTT was indeed the figment of the imagination you are claiming he was. Without such actual evidence, all you are doing is present your personal belief as fact.

Casabamelon
02-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Prove it. Get an unambiguous statement by RJ saying that LTT was indeed the figment of the imagination you are claiming he was. Without such actual evidence, all you are doing is present your personal belief as fact.

So, is that the WoT equivalent of pulling a Godwin? I think the logical rejoiner goes like this:

Prove it. Get an unambiguous statement by RJ saying that LTT was not indeed the figment of the imagination you are claiming he was not. Without such actual evidence, all you are doing is present[sic] your personal belief as fact.

Seeker
02-14-2011, 03:15 PM
”As the Wheel of Time turns," Moiraine said, half to herself and with a distant look in her eyes, "places wear many names. Men wear many names, many faces. Different faces, but always the same man."

(1) Premise:
In the WOT universe, the same human being is reborn multiple times. Different faces but always the same person.

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew - somehow - that he would never again her Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

(2)Premise
Rand identifies himself with Lews Therin.


"Are you ever going to get over that affection, Cadsuane Sedai?" Rand asked. "Calling me boy? I no longer mind, though it does feel odd. I was four hundred years old on the day I died during the Age of Legends. I suspect that would make you my junior by several decades at the least. I show you respect. Perhaps it would be appropriate for you to return it. If you wish, you may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."

(3) Premise
Lews Therin states that he is still alive and that his name is now Rand.

Inference

(1) In WOT the same characters are reborn again and again. Different faces but always the same person.
(2) Rand identifies himself with Lews Therin.
(3) Lews Therin identifies himself with Rand.

Therefore:
(4) Sub-Conclusion:

Rand and Lews Therin are the same person.

"Some men who channel begin to hear voices." [Cadsuane] spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do."

(5) Premise

A common malady among men who channel is the presence of voices that tell them what to do.

(6) Premise
Rand hears a voice that tells him what to do. He refers to this voice as "Lews Therin."



Inference

(6) Rand hears a voice that tells him what to do. He refers to this voice as "Lews Therin."

(4) Rand and Lews Therin are the same person.

Therefore:
(7) Sub-conclusion.

The 'Lews Therin' voice is either a) Rand's own voice or b) a hallucination caused by an external factor.

Inference

(7) The 'Lews Therin' voice is either a) Rand's own voice or b) a hallucination caused by an external factor.

(5) A common malady among men who channel is the presence of voices that tell them what to do.

Therefore:

(8) Conclusion.
The 'Lews Therin' voice is a hallucination caused by the taint.

Q.E.D.

If you want a statement from the author, you need look no further than novels he wrote. You don't need an interview quote, you can Read and Find Out. :P

Sudbury
02-18-2011, 11:07 AM
As the thread is looking at alternatives I think this one is doutful but Rand, Matt and Perrin could combine. They are certainly closely linked.

Personnally I have always thought it meant the two halves of the one power plus the true power which Rand can now access.

Evidence of continued access to the TP is the fact when he was shielded at his meeting with Egwene at Tar Valon he did not care as he knew he could free himself.

Aulis Vaara
02-18-2011, 12:24 PM
Evidence of continued access to the TP is the fact when he was shielded at his meeting with Egwene at Tar Valon he did not care as he knew he could free himself.

That is not evidence of continued True Power access. Remember that Rand is Ta'veren, and the pattern will always try to give him what he needs. It was implied (if not clearly stated) in the descriptions of his visit that the Pattern would not allow him to be captured right there, so close to the finish.

Terez
02-18-2011, 12:35 PM
Not only that, Rand made a distinction by saying that he would have used the True Power some days before, but either wouldn't or couldn't any more. Hard to say which, though. I imagine he still could.

Seeker
02-18-2011, 08:49 PM
As far as I know, Rand only used the True Power the one time and only by accident. He felt very tempted by it but, even at his lowest point, he knew it would be wrong to use it.

I doubt he'd use it now.

In fact, I don't think that Rand's ability to break the shield has anything to do with the True Power. I think ta'veren is part of it but I'm pretty sure that's not all.

It's strongly hinted in the books that Rand is even stronger in the One Power than he used to be.

kasper11
02-20-2011, 02:22 PM
Question....why does the interpertation of this prophecy rest on whether or not LTT is a separate person? Nowhere does it say the three people shall be one.

I have always thought it referred to the end of TGS. We have our blade of light from Rand's hands, and Rand reconciling the three aspects of himself...

He always knew himself as Rand al'Thor.
He was also LTT reborn.
He was also the Champion of the Light.

These are three different things. Prior to his mega-breakdown, while he knew intellectually that he was LTT reborn and the Champion, he did not accept it or what it meant.

He insisted that LTT was a separate person. He refused to admit that they were one and the same, and therefore he could not access LTT's memories.

He also refused to accept what it means to be the Champion. He knew he had to face the DO, but not why. He fought for the people, but had no love for them. Rather than being a becon of hope, he was leaving despair in his wake.

Now he knows. He is Rand al'Thor. He is LTT. He is the Champion. The three aspects are one.

This is what the borderlanders needed to know. If Rand did not truly accept that the three were one, he would have destroyed Randland.

_________________________________________________

On a separate note, am I the only one who thinks LTT was real and a part of Rand's imagination at the same time?

Clearly, Rand imagined LTT. But, what Rand did was to shut himself off from all of LTT's memories. Therefore, you had a part of Rand that was composed of nothing but LTT's memories. When you have LTT's soul + LTT's memories, you get LTT's personality. So basically, we have Rand imagining how LTT would react in various situations, but it is how LTT would react. So it is the real LTT, even though it is a part of Rand's imagination.

Artur pendragon
02-21-2011, 04:23 AM
As the thread is looking at alternatives I think this one is doutful but Rand, Matt and Perrin could combine. They are certainly closely linked.

Personnally I have always thought it meant the two halves of the one power plus the true power which Rand can now access.

Evidence of continued access to the TP is the fact when he was shielded at his meeting with Egwene at Tar Valon he did not care as he knew he could free himself.

This could be if you think about the fact that he used saidar and saidin to remove the taint and also it is stated(but could not find the page for quote)that is LTT had the female Aes Sedai with him when he bound the DO that saidar would have been tainted also just like saidin. so Rand would need a third factor that could not be touched by the taint to seal the DO.

Just a Reader
02-21-2011, 07:41 AM
This could be if you think about the fact that he used saidar and saidin to remove the taint and also it is stated(but could not find the page for quote)that is LTT had the female Aes Sedai with him when he bound the DO that saidar would have been tainted also just like saidin. so Rand would need a third factor that could not be touched by the taint to seal the DO.

I think the three powers theory is the most likely one.

If I remember correctly, the DOs prison was opened by Lanfaer, doing some research in the AoL. Wasn't the idea to tap a newly found third source and combine it with the other two?
So Lanfaer (before she became a bad girl), famous researcher in the AoL, thought it possible to use all the powers together.
Far away from any kind of proof, but that might be some hint.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2011, 08:44 AM
Trouble is that that third power is the DO himself, and he may not be willing to play along.

Just a Reader
02-21-2011, 10:37 AM
Trouble is that that third power is the DO himself, and he may not be willing to play along.

Good point! But why is Rand able to use the true power?
The only other people we have seen, are some of the forsaken. And them only with the DOs permission.
Rand beeing one of them seems rather unlikely and why should the DO allow his opponent access to his own power?
Maybe its the DOs attempt to corrupt Rand, but maybe there is another mechanism at work?
Just speculation...

Terez
02-21-2011, 11:02 AM
Good point! But why is Rand able to use the true power?
Did you notice the effect it had on him? Certainly that was along the lines of what the Dark One wanted...but letting him use it to seal the Bore is an entirely different story.

Rand using the True Power was not a good thing. I don't think he'll use it again unless Moridin takes over his body.

Just a Reader
02-21-2011, 12:15 PM
Did you notice the effect it had on him? Certainly that was along the lines of what the Dark One wanted...but letting him use it to seal the Bore is an entirely different story.

Rand using the True Power was not a good thing. I don't think he'll use it again unless Moridin takes over his body.

You are working under the assumption, that the DO has to permit the use of the true power actively.
Under that assumption, you have a very valid point.

On the other hand, some of the forsaken-chapters gave me the impression, that there might be other mechanisms at work. Maybe something along the lines of "once granted can't be taken away again"?
But as I said before, that's just speculation and guesswork, since there is just not enough information (or I missed it ;)).

Maybe I just like that idea, because it would be a very elegant solution for the problem of sealing or killing the DO without a new taint.
I just don't believe, that this will just be a matter of strength or something like a Fain=Gollum end.

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2011, 12:19 PM
On the other hand, some of the forsaken-chapters gave me the impression, that there might be other mechanisms at work. Maybe something along the lines of "once granted can't be taken away again"?There seems to be evidence against that idea:
Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin's blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his ... anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.

Just a Reader
02-21-2011, 12:29 PM
Privelige in a sense of "can not at all", or in a sense of "can't without getting into serious trouble with the boss"?

GonzoTheGreat
02-21-2011, 12:41 PM
I would say "can not at all", based on Graendal's thoughts on it in ToM.

Terez
02-21-2011, 01:03 PM
You are working under the assumption, that the DO has to permit the use of the true power actively.
That is because RJ has said as much pretty clearly. Have you checked out the interview database yet?

Also, the 'three shall be one' is not necessarily in reference to Callandor or the end game at all. My theory is that it has to do with Rand's resurrection.

Marie Curie 7
02-21-2011, 11:32 PM
Question....why does the interpertation of this prophecy rest on whether or not LTT is a separate person? Nowhere does it say the three people shall be one.

I have always thought it referred to the end of TGS. We have our blade of light from Rand's hands, and Rand reconciling the three aspects of himself...

Well, among other things, Rand did not have a "blade of light" with him on Dragonmount at the end of TGS. He had the access key to the Choedan Kal, which is a statue, not a blade:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

Lightning cracked above, thunder buffeting him. Rand closed his eyes, perched above a drop that plummeted thousands of feet downward, in the middle of a tempest of icy wind. Through his eyelids, he could sense the blazing light of the access key. The Power he held inside dwarfed that light. He was the sun. He was fire. He was life and death.

Certainly the access key blazed with light, and Rand felt the Power blazing within himself, but he did not have a blade of light such as Callandor with him on Dragonmount.


He always knew himself as Rand al'Thor.
He was also LTT reborn.
He was also the Champion of the Light.

These are three different things. Prior to his mega-breakdown, while he knew intellectually that he was LTT reborn and the Champion, he did not accept it or what it meant.

He insisted that LTT was a separate person. He refused to admit that they were one and the same, and therefore he could not access LTT's memories.

He also refused to accept what it means to be the Champion. He knew he had to face the DO, but not why. He fought for the people, but had no love for them. Rather than being a becon of hope, he was leaving despair in his wake.

Now he knows. He is Rand al'Thor. He is LTT. He is the Champion. The three aspects are one.

This is what the borderlanders needed to know. If Rand did not truly accept that the three were one, he would have destroyed Randland.

The three did not become one on Dragonmount. The many became one:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 50 - Veins of Gold

Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again.

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

It seems pretty evident that this event on Dragonmount refers to the prophecy from the Essanik Cycle:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Epilogue

At the end of time,
when the many become one,
the last storm shall gather its angry winds
to destroy a land already dying.
And at its center,
the blind man shall stand
upon his own grave.
There he shall see again,
and weep for what has been wrought.

-- from The Prophecies of the Dragon, Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's Official Translation, Imperial Record House of Seandar, Fourth Circle of Elevation.

Just a Reader
02-22-2011, 03:55 AM
That is because RJ has said as much pretty clearly. Have you checked out the interview database yet?

Not completely (I don't have that much time). I did find something about the TP beeing granted by the DO, which still leaves some space for loopholes and possibilities... well, pure speculation.

By the way, a big compliment for that database!
A huge piece of work.


Also, the 'three shall be one' is not necessarily in reference to Callandor or the end game at all. My theory is that it has to do with Rand's resurrection.

Sure, it is not neccessarry at all. It just would be a possibility.

On your theory: On first thought, I can see no obvious connection at all... so there is a good chance that you are right ;)

Xarra
02-23-2011, 07:59 AM
How about the three being Mat, Perrin and Rand all having to work together in the same way?

We already know there's a connection between them (swirly colours whenever one thinks of the others) so maybe it's simply they have to accept the connection and all be 'as one' mind?

The 3 powers might be the case too... We could all be overthinking it!

Rand al'Fain
02-23-2011, 11:31 AM
Maybe Rand, Ordieth/Fain/whatever the hell he calls himself, and the Dark One all collide and "become one" and make a mushroom cloud at Shayoul Ghoul?

probably just killed the spelling there, oh well.

Artur pendragon
02-24-2011, 02:25 PM
Good point! But why is Rand able to use the true power?
The only other people we have seen, are some of the forsaken. And them only with the DOs permission.
Rand beeing one of them seems rather unlikely and why should the DO allow his opponent access to his own power?
Maybe its the DOs attempt to corrupt Rand, but maybe there is another mechanism at work?
Just speculation...

Something snaps inside Rand and all emotion goes away. He can sense a new force.6 Rand takes hold of it and Lews Therin screams. The collar around his neck explodes. Semirhage looks stunned, then realizes what must have happened and asks why the Great Lord betrayed her. Rand uses balefire to destroy her7 and Elza.8 As Min recovers, he tells her they have now taken everything from him. It was the last that could be done.

Here I do not think that the DO gave Rand access to TP, my theory is more that it was His ta'veren
presence that gave him what he needed not to kill Min and escape from Semirhage and the domination bands

arioch
02-24-2011, 02:46 PM
Here I do not think that the DO gave Rand access to TP, my theory is more that it was His ta'veren
presence that gave him what he needed not to kill Min and escape from Semirhage and the domination bands

I would consider it indisputable that the Dark One and Moridin wanted to "tempt" Rand further towards his insanity, and Moridin wanted to punish Semirhage in the bargain. What BETTER way than to allow Rand a way out of the Domination Band via access to the True Power?

Also I doubt that ta'veren Pattern-warping has anything to do with access to the True Power because by definition the Dark One and the True Power are not part of the Pattern.