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padfoot89
02-10-2011, 01:22 PM
Why did Verin make Mat promise that he would follow whatever was written in the letter?

She should have just told him that the letter had some information and that he shouldn't open it till certain number of days had passed. Mat would have followed what was written in the letter when he read that Trollocs would come out of the Waygate.

Terez
02-10-2011, 01:28 PM
She underestimated his scruples. Not surprising, since she only knew him when he was under the influence of the dagger. Though why she thought him more likely to keep a promise than to feel any sort of responsibility toward Caemlyn, who knows.

bgrishinko
02-10-2011, 02:51 PM
This Verin letter thing kinda bugged me for a while. Then I thought that maybe it had something to do with her Black Ajah oaths. We know she couldn't betray those up till the hour of her death. She gave Mat a timeline in which he was not to open the letter, which leads him up to the hour of her death and beyond if she doesn't return. If Mat opened it sooner, as she hoped he would, she wouldn't be betraying her oath... he was just privy to advance information through his own means.

The promise to do whatever it said though... mmm... As Mat always says, any sane person will avoid battles whenever possible. That and his aversion to dealing with Aes Sedai, the One Power, and even nobility makes it seem like he might not be willing to do this thing. Of course Terez is right, she underestimates his scruples.

FelixPax
02-11-2011, 03:53 AM
She underestimated his scruples.

Verin guides or manipulated events within Two Rivers well enough. Why did Verin expect him to break his promise? Because:


What people in Two Rivers told her about him,
Verin's own experiences with Mat Cauthon prior meeting himagain TofM,
Verin did met Mat's & Rand's fathers recall too



On a more speculative front:

Verin, Mat Cauthon, Aedmun are each distant relatives by blood.


How are they related?

House of Matherin.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2011, 04:18 AM
She wanted to arouse his curiosity.
She did not expect him to keep any promise, as he has a tendency to do. Instead, she expected him to think that he could argue his way around having to do anything he did not want to do. She knew that he was very capable of getting out of binds. She knew that he knew. So she expected him to believe that he could outsmart her.

Instead, as Two Rivers people are wont to do, he was less subtle than she'd thought. Usually that is to their benefit, this time it wasn't.

Of course, this kind of trickiness would have worked like a charm on Egwene.

subwoofer
02-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Um... hang on here, are we sure that Verin did not expect Mat to keep his word? Granted that Vernin's initial exposure to Mat was when he was under the influence of the Dagger, Verin has also met Mat when he was at his best- specifically, when he was at the head of his own personal army. Tuon was an astute person that noticed the loyalty and respect Mat got from his troops, can we think that an Aes Sedai as skilled as Verin is would be any less observant?

IMHO it was Mat's own bias towards "Aes Sedai strings" that was his undoing in this particular circumstance. In a way, he did keep his word by not opening the letter, but he also didn't open the letter because he was leery of being a puppet for Verin, he had enough of that already. I dunno, I think the Pattern massaged things in the end, but Verin was doing what she could to keep her BA oaths.

Spasmodean
02-13-2011, 04:09 PM
Um... hang on here, are we sure that Verin did not expect Mat to keep his word?

No, because she made sure to extract a promise from him, showing she knew that he keeps his word once given.

She didn't relax during that scene UNTIL he gave his promise.

Daekyras
02-14-2011, 03:09 AM
I think verin outsmarted herself in this instance.

The fact is that she knew mat keeps his promises. It is remarked several times throughout the series that mat may ve a rogue but if he gives a promise he will keep in(even Egwene acknowledges this).

Having spent time with the major characters and in the two rivers she could not have missed this.

So, what does she do? She does not make him promise to NOT open the letter, just to do what it asks if he does. In this way she was trying to appeal to mats other major defining characteristic(in the eyes of others)- curiosity.

However, she failed to take into account his reluctance to become entangled in aes sedai strings anymore than he already is.

It was a good plan as we all know that mat nearly opened it repeatedly.

Better luck next time V. Oh, right.....

Terez
02-14-2011, 03:35 AM
I think verin outsmarted herself in this instance.

The fact is that she knew mat keeps his promises. It is remarked several times throughout the series that mat may ve a rogue but if he gives a promise he will keep in(even Egwene acknowledges this).
Yes, but when was Verin around for anyone talking about it? Why would anyone have even mentioned it to her? I don't think you can establish that she 'can't have missed it' at all.

Daekyras
02-14-2011, 04:18 AM
Yes, but when was Verin around for anyone talking about it? Why would anyone have even mentioned it to her? I don't think you can establish that she 'can't have missed it' at all.

Hmm, true, it's never said "onscreen" so therefor it's possible that it may not have happened...

However, I do think it's safe to assume she asked questions about the three boys when in the two rivers and would likely have heard that information....:)

GonzoTheGreat
02-14-2011, 05:15 AM
But back in the Two Rivers, Mat's trustworthiness when he had given his word was less obvious than his tendency to commit mischief. When they specifically thought about it, Egwene and Nynaeve realised that Mat could be trusted if he promised to do something. But until they actually thought about that specific issue, all they remembered was the kind of trouble he could get into.

So unless Verin had been lucky enough to ask exactly the right questions, all she would have heard was about his pranks. And instead of asking pointed questions she was mostly listening. Which made her a lot less noticeable, but also may have led her to fail to notice this.

Daekyras
02-14-2011, 05:44 AM
But back in the Two Rivers, Mat's trustworthiness when he had given his word was less obvious than his tendency to commit mischief. When they specifically thought about it, Egwene and Nynaeve realised that Mat could be trusted if he promised to do something. But until they actually thought about that specific issue, all they remembered was the kind of trouble he could get into.
So unless Verin had been lucky enough to ask exactly the right questions, all she would have heard was about his pranks. And instead of asking pointed questions she was mostly listening. Which made her a lot less noticeable, but also may have led her to fail to notice this.
but as that happens "off-screen" we can't know for sure...
however, Verin spends a lot of time with the two rivers folk and with Mat's sisters in particular. as Mat is "one of theres" the chances are that every bad comment would be tempered by good comment
eg Verin "what about Mat Cauthon?" she said while distractedly picking at an ink spot and seeming to stare through the spot at nothing in particular.
cenn buie " nothing but trouble that young fella, always pulling some prank or other....hearts inthe right place though. will always help if you can catch him..."
verin "hmm, how's the thatch this year master buie?" she said, changing the subject at will.
or at least, thats how i see it. but hey, i just don't know...

The Angry Druid
02-14-2011, 07:30 PM
How Verin (mis)handled this has really bugged me, but before I get into that.

1) She absolutely thought Mat would KEEP his word, not break it. Everyone knows he keeps his word once given.

2) She thought one of three things might happen.

a) She is freed of her oaths, returns the next day, takes the letter back, and can take care of the waygate herself. Or just bloody tell Mat, or Elayne, or both. Any way you slice it, problem solved.

b) She dies, and Mat opens the letter, acts on it, and the problem is solved.

c) She dies, Mat stays in Caemlyn long enough (30 days) for the attack to happen, and he can deal with it with the Band right there. Houston, we have a problem.
-------------------------

It turns out she was wrong about the timeline of the attack. And 30 days passed before the attack came, and Mat left. Promise kept, but Caemlyn screwed.

Now, I think A & B are OK, but c is just plain dumb. The Band will be outside, the Waygate is inside. The DF's will have the advantage, and the damage to the city if Mat kept his word.

Why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne? Or an AS at the Palace? Or Myrelle or another of the rebel sisters in town? Or Egwene? She knows who is Black and who is not better than anyone, and a sister's promise to open the letter, in say, 3 days would have taken care of the whole problem.

Anyway, her reasoning was so dumb on (c) that it is hard to believe she hadn't made a serious mistake in 70 years, when so many other solutions presented themselves.

GonzoTheGreat
02-15-2011, 04:16 AM
Why ignore the actual reason she actually gives in her actual letter?
Fortunately, if there's one thing I believe I can rely upon, it is your curiosity. I suspect you lasted a few days before opening this letter, which is long enough for me to have returned if I were going to. Therefore, this task falls upon you.She did not count on him waiting the full 30 days. She did not believe for one moment that he would wait anywhere near that long. She expected him to open the letter after a handful of days, at most.

Daekyras
02-15-2011, 06:49 AM
i'm fairly sure thats the crux of my original post gonzo....

subwoofer
02-15-2011, 10:25 AM
.

c) She dies, Mat stays in Caemlyn long enough (30 days) for the attack to happen, and he can deal with it with the Band right there. Houston, we have a problem.
-------------------------

It turns out she was wrong about the timeline of the attack. And 30 days passed before the attack came, and Mat left. Promise kept, but Caemlyn screwed.

Now, I think A & B are OK, but c is just plain dumb. The Band will be outside, the Waygate is inside. The DF's will have the advantage, and the damage to the city if Mat kept his word.

Why didn't she just give the letter to Elayne? Or an AS at the Palace? Or Myrelle or another of the rebel sisters in town? Or Egwene? She knows who is Black and who is not better than anyone, and a sister's promise to open the letter, in say, 3 days would have taken care of the whole problem.


Wow, Trollocs not being punctual- go figure.

Gotta remember, that during all of this going on, Verin is still sworn to BA Oaths. Giving said letter to any other Aes Sedai would open a whole can of worms... namely of the "where did you gain this knowledge, are you BA?" variety. I think her Oaths would not allow something like that.

After Verin died, I think many of us are both burning a candle that she will come back somehow and thinking up other ways she could get around her oaths and live... longer. I always thought it was a damn shame that Verin had to die, but that is what made her a hero and had lots of us weeping... er... not me of course, I was peeling onions.

Anyways I think the end solution to all this will make for good reading and it will work out okay.

padfoot89
02-17-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't get her reasoning here at all. As Angry Druid said, it would have been far simpler to leave the letter with Elayne or Egwene. Why involve Mat in this at all ?

If Verin was banking on Mat's curiosity, she should have told him that the letter had important information. Mat told her straight off that he wasn't going to agree to following unknown instructions. At least then she should have told him to screw the instructions and just read the content instead of telling him to throw it away and hang around in Caemlyn.

Juan
02-17-2011, 01:07 PM
She probably couldn't because of her oaths to the DO...

Also Mat is kinda a genius strategist and has one of the best armies.. Elayne is an expert bath-taker. Egwene is an expert Queen of the Aes Sedai. Egwene is busy plotting how to deal with Rand. Elayne is busy being pregnant, taking baths, and getting herself to Merrilor's field. Rand is busy setting things in motion for the Last Battle. Taim isn't a good guy and the whole dreamspike prevents Ashaman from helping. And everyone else who has an army or could help one way or another is kinda too faraway, or is preoccupied.

Mat's the best option for Caemlyn.

Aulis Vaara
02-18-2011, 11:33 AM
I don't get her reasoning here at all. As Angry Druid said, it would have been far simpler to leave the letter with Elayne or Egwene. Why involve Mat in this at all ?

Did you miss the fact where she tried to get places but kept being pulled to Mat? Since Mat needed to go to Caemlyn anyway, and he had an army with him, she probably considered it "good enough". Maybe she even thought that the Pattern gave her this opportunity for a reason.

padfoot89
02-19-2011, 07:54 AM
Did you miss the fact where she tried to get places but kept being pulled to Mat? Since Mat needed to go to Caemlyn anyway, and he had an army with him, she probably considered it "good enough". Maybe she even thought that the Pattern gave her this opportunity for a reason.

She should have put him in Caemlyn and left it at that. Given a letter to Elayne telling her not to open it for a few days or told Egwene about it when she told her the story.
I wonder if she did this on the fly and therefore made mistakes. She didn't know that it was Mat until the end.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 01:07 PM
What I'm really left wondering after reading the note is if she was being honest when she said she hoped that she would return and take the letter back the next day. If she was - what was she hoping would happen? Perhaps she had hoped that she could find a way free herself from her Black Ajah oaths short of ending her life - betraying the Ajah, and then continuing to live and fight for the Light? Or is something else going on there?

The issues that you all are bringing up are definitely worth considering, but I've always been more curious about how she was hoping it would go down in Tar Valon, such that she would be able to return.

Terez
02-28-2011, 01:14 PM
What I'm really left wondering after reading the note is if she was being honest when she said she hoped that she would return and take the letter back the next day. If she was - what was she hoping would happen? Perhaps she had hoped that she could find a way free herself from her Black Ajah oaths short of ending her life - betraying the Ajah, and then continuing to live and fight for the Light?
Yes. She said as much to Egwene.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 02:03 PM
Huh. I didn't recall that.

Terez
02-28-2011, 02:16 PM
She couldn't find the Oath Rod because Saerin et al. had it, but she said she wasn't sure that would have worked either.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 02:17 PM
She couldn't find the Oath Rod because Saerin et al. had it, but she said she wasn't sure that would have worked either.

Oh, right. :cool: