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Terez
02-11-2011, 06:10 PM
I wrote a FAQ article on Demandred (http://bit.ly/demandredfaq). Let me know what you think.

Kimon
02-11-2011, 06:45 PM
I wrote a FAQ article on Demandred (http://bit.ly/demandredfaq). Let me know what you think.

Nicely done. I suppose you could add in a definitive comment that Charlz Guybon cannot be Demandred, since he was in ToM.

Terez
02-11-2011, 06:55 PM
Meh, hardly anyone talks about him anyway. I think I made it clear enough that no one who was seen on screen outside of TGS could possibly be Demandred (aside from Demandred himself) and I don't really feel like repeating the point for every theory that ignores that fact. :)

dpt24
02-11-2011, 06:57 PM
Your reasons for Roderan are good. That said... I'm not sure if it would be worth it for him or the shadow. No one is going to look for him there, but there's only so much he can do in Murandy. Invade Andor? Sure, but the shadowspawn are doing that, and compared to the armies everyone else has got, Murandy is...screwed.

If he's in Murandy, then he's got to be doing a couple other things, whether balefire or the helping mastermind the black tower or whatever else. Then I get hiding out in Murandy, becuase it's somewhat useful, and no ones looking for him, because he's got other proxies doing things. Possibly, Roderan and Taim are both his proxies, and Demedred has no alter ego...

I lean towards him being in Shara/Seanchan/Isle of madmen, but to be fair, I was convinced he'd be with the Borderlanders until TOM, so I'm not the best with Demerdred theories.

jana
02-12-2011, 12:13 AM
I don't understand why people place limits on the numbers he could have there. It's big enough that he could hide that.


How about this. Demandred is Roedran, and Murandy is a staging ground, and he's been gathering Madmen and Sha'rans there this entire time. There, all three theories combined.

Terez
02-12-2011, 01:17 AM
The point is that it was a place in the center of things where he could build his power base without anyone really paying any attention to him, including the Murandians.

bgrishinko
02-12-2011, 10:02 PM
Yeah, this is a great summary of information about Demmy. After all the years of arguments and theories about him, it is still just as confusing as to where he is.

It is interesting that Brandon says it would be harder to pin down than Asmo's killer since there WAS lots of evidence pointing to her. The evidence for Roedran is there, especially the changes in his behavior and his now found love of the military. But it is much more vague and in the background than Asmo. The hints are there and subtle though.

I'm actually very VERY concerned about what happened with the Band of the Red Hand during that time. It was foreshadowed by Egwene's statements that bad things would happen if Talmanes did anything with Roedran... she made him promise to stay out of it. Yet... seems to be the case he did go to work.

I can't really see Demandred not sucking up that army for a longer time than that. Any thoughts onto what he could have wanted from them?

Terez
02-12-2011, 10:34 PM
Maybe he wanted to seed them with plants, or maybe he just wanted to saddle Talmanes with a Finder. I hate that Talmanes never explained what was going on with the looming betrayal that he managed to avoid.

bgrishinko
02-12-2011, 11:17 PM
The Finder seems like a small thing, especially when Mat isn't too hard a guy to find half the time. I mean the Gholam was on top of that no problem. Planting them with DFs seems more likely. The Red Hand would be pivotal to TG with Mat leading them. They've always been the best of the best. If Demandred can tear them the Band apart from the inside out, well, that is a great strategy of war.
There are TONS of new people in the Band now from when Mat was last in charge. Who knows, maybe a big chunk of them are Demmy's men.

Terez
02-12-2011, 11:41 PM
It's more about finding the Band than about finding Mat, I think.

Juan
02-12-2011, 11:56 PM
Demandred is clearly Demandred. ;)

Terez
02-13-2011, 01:06 AM
Ah, Juan. Your contribution to our discussion is always so enlightening and thought-provoking. :rolleyes:

Spasmodean
02-13-2011, 09:08 AM
It is a nice collection of thoughts on Demmy, but it reads more like a front page theory than a FAQ :)

Especially since there's really only one FAQ about him anyways - Wtf is he up to?!

Edit: I should say that it was an entertaining read though.

Juan
02-13-2011, 11:58 AM
Aw, Terez. Thanks for the compliment, I knew you could be nice if you dug deep enough inside you. :P

I did read your article, though. And it seems more like a theory on why Demandred is in Murandy and all that. I'll say this: Brandon said figuring out who Demandred is would be much harder than who killed Asmodean. Brandon seems to think TLers especially very capable, so he's probably not exaggerating when he says it would be difficult to figure out. And maybe it's just me, but the Roedran idea seems too easy too me. It was quite a simple process of elimination thing, so just based on that alone I think it'll be someone much more obscure. Rulers are the first picks for many Forsaken. So it's too obvious for Demandred to be a ruler, even one such as Roedran.

Terez
02-13-2011, 06:09 PM
Yeah, it's just you. Hardly anybody thought it was Roedran until TGS, and then only noobs. Brandon narrowed it down whether we like it or not, and he didn't think he was making it easier for us because he assumed he hadn't told us anything more than RJ did. In order to address Demandred properly in the FAQ, I have to deal with the facts as they are, not as you want them to be.

New Futurist Man
02-13-2011, 10:34 PM
Does anyone know Demandred's coat-of-arms/sigil from the AoL? Presuming he had one, ofcourse.

Terez
02-14-2011, 12:13 AM
Nope, we don't have that info.

Daekyras
02-14-2011, 03:50 AM
Aw, Terez. Thanks for the compliment, I knew you could be nice if you dug deep enough inside you. :P


*snicker*

on topic, thanks T, very informative faq.

FelixPax
02-14-2011, 10:59 AM
I wrote a FAQ article on Demandred (http://bit.ly/demandredfaq). Let me know what you think.

Your analysis is pretty darn good, however its spotty in critical sections.

Thus your conclusion is incorrect. :p



Want some examples?



No mention was made of Rand al'Thor's Lews Therin voice directly associating Demandred to Aridhol--e.g. the Waygate.

Even Sammael was active within Aridhol, next the the very same Waygate. So what did he claim about Demandred?


“You think not? Not even if he learns where you all are?” That smile deepened. “I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?”

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 23 "To Understand a Message" Graendal point of view; with Sammael speaking

Waygates are one common nexus, which both Sammael & Rand al'Thor share related to Demandred's whereabouts.



No mention was made of Mesaana's claim that Demandred was looking for a Sa'angreal (LoC, Prologue). In other words, no mention the Giant Sa'angreal in the Black Hills was made at all.

No mention of the Shadow Coast Mountains was made, and its TWO former Kingdoms.

No mention of Shadow Ogiers was made at all.

No mention of Lying Elder Ogiers was made, when Ogiers are supposedly exclaimed to always honor their Word (e.g. Faile's memory of Ogier). Yet Satsuma of Arafel claims as a fact, that Elder Ogiers have been proven to be liars.

No mention was made of Ogiers being found in place where Ogiers should not be: Shadow Coast Mountains TWO Steddings. Elder Haman claimed to Rand al'Thor both of those Steddings were abandoned. Yet Loial met Ogier Elders at both Steddings (KoD Book), in the Shadow Coast Mountains (while Karldin slept "outside" at night).


I can go, on and on about the Shadow Coast Mountains as being a 'nexus' for the origin of a major attack. Maybe Demandred is behind it, or maybe Moridin is behind it. Either way, one of them absolutely is behind it. In any case, Terez should have mentioned it.


No mention of the great possibility that the Seanchan Empire already is active within Murandy. (An agreement was reached between Seanchan & King Roedran; see Juilin comments, Merchant comments out in Far Madding, Beslan's comments to Mat Cauthon.)

No mention of Padan Fain Mordeth's in-depth plans which were hatched in 'The Great Hunt' book were given.


No mention of former Tairen High Lady Alteima was given, nor where she was most likely heading for: Murandy. Her description was seen with Graendal in a TofM book scene. (Sammael also earlier claimed Graendal does not use Darkfriends as personal servants; thus it is implied Alteima is not a darkfriend.)



Where did could Alteima go after Rahvin died in Caemlyn? Alteima had no real place to go but to Murandy. Why?



Her Husband High Lord Tedosian would kill her if she is found in Cairhien;
She loaths Illian, plus its now controlled by Dragonsworn;
Threat of poverty & death awaits her in Tear, plus loyal Dragonsworn;
Tar Valon is off limits to considering Alteima is Tairen, she does not trust Moiraine who is Aes Sedai. Moiraine did try to set up an "accident" to kill Alteima in Cairhien, which Alteima knew of.


Point is former Tairen High Lady Alteima only one real place to go, based on her known motivates, that is Murandy. She's smart enough to strengthen Murandy as a State, on her own. Alteima would like also know who Talmanes is.



Why would Demandred let someone take away former Tairen High Lady Alteima out of Murandy?
How would Demandred NOT be recognized by Graendal in Murandy?
Graendal in Towers of Midnight claims not to not know where Demandred is located nor his plans.




A Character's Blindness: A Case of Graendal.


How did Graendal miss finding out where Demandred has been operating?


Blind spots and biases:


She seeks out prestige, status.
She dislikes "Nature".



Neither the Shadow Coast Mountains, nor Ogier Steddings nor the Black Hills are places Graendal would choose visit.

Yellowbeard
02-14-2011, 11:43 AM
Murandy seems as logical a place as any other for Demandred to be staging a sneak attack. Between Traveling, the Ways, and Portal Stones, Demandred would be able to get any forces, whether human or shadowspawn, that he has marshalled to any destination and fast.

kasper11
02-14-2011, 12:58 PM
I still think he has to be associated with the BT in some form.

The Chosen are all jealous of eachother, and scheming for power. The BT, being home to all known male chanellers, is one of the strongest and most important armies in the world right now.

To give Taim a free hand at the BT would be to basically make him into a Chosen. He would instantly be on their level as far as importance to the DO. None of the Chosen want to share their power, so somebody has to be above Taim.

Ishamael states that he is focusing his attention in the North. I don't see any other good choices for who is running things at the BT other than Demandred.

That doesn't mean he can't be somewhere else as well, but I think he is spending at least some time there.

Terez
02-14-2011, 01:08 PM
Agreed; we saw that much in the chain-of-command scene in Winter's Heart, and it only makes sense that he was behind it in the beginning. That just doesn't answer the question of the alter ego.

Yellowbeard
02-14-2011, 01:14 PM
Demandred having a hand in things at the BT would make sense if he's staging something big from Murandy too. He'd need access to channellers to transport his forces.

Envelope
02-14-2011, 05:02 PM
Read your synopsis Terez, must say it's very thorough and i'm practically convinced that Roedran is either a proxy or maybe Demandred himself.

Just a few points from a practical perspective though...

Let's assume Roedran is Demandred and that Murandy spits out an army of, say, 300,000 troops. There's no chance in hell this army is going to fight alongside trollocs against Caemlyn.

I keep reading that Murandy is possibly/probably Demandred's staging point. Could be, but he wouldn't be able to combine the vast majority shadow forces with it.
I think recruiting from the island of madmen wouldnt sit too well with a Murandian army either somehow so we can discount that.
He certainly wouldn't be able to coerice Murandy troops to attack the forces of light at TG - just because their leader is a darkfriend doesn't make the army.
So this really limits the usage of a Murandy army to attacking neighbouring nations, and as mentioned they're certainly not going to Caemlyn to hold hands with trollocs.
So all in all, this seems too minor for Demandred. It may well be his doing but you'd expect him to be cooking up something far more significant elsewhere.

New Futurist Man
02-14-2011, 07:38 PM
Kasper11:The BT, being home to all known male chanellers, is one of the strongest and most important armies in the world right now.

Agree about the significance of the Black Tower, however Taim doesn't have free reign over all the Asha'man: a sizeable portion of the Black Tower, possibly around 200+ Asha'man, is stationed on the Illian border to defend against a potential Seanchan attack and have been for a while now. This contingent was selected by Logain following a direct order from the Dragon Reborn, so its a fair bet to assume Logain will have chosen Asha'man loyal to the Dragon.

Its probable that it was from this pool were deployed many of the Asha'man who helped save Maradon and what survived of Ituralde's army, as its likely the Dreamspike at the Black Tower went into operation around the time of the allocation of the 100 Asha'man to Ituralde, or soon after.

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5647/wotannotatedmap.jpg

Menthu
02-15-2011, 01:19 AM
Maybe both is true?

Maybe he's using Black Hills area for staging, because it's sort of "out of ways", but his very own station is Murandy?

I find it highly unlikely to amass a greater force of e.g. Trollocs in Murandy without anybody noticing. We see quite some examples of gossip running up and down Randland, but never heard any gossip out of Murandy. I don't think, one could hold this secret for that long. You might want to offhand it with "off-scene" arguments, but for me that doesn't cut in.

Regards,
Menthu

PS: Yay, first time post - long time lurk :)

jana
02-15-2011, 08:41 AM
Regards,
Menthu


Your icon is really disturbing me because it looks like a... something.

1Powerslave
02-15-2011, 09:08 AM
Maybe he's using Black Hills area for staging, because it's sort of "out of ways", but his very own station is Murandy?

PS: Yay, first time post - long time lurk :)
Nice pun. And welcome to the boards!

FelixPax
02-16-2011, 01:33 AM
Demandred having a hand in things at the BT would make sense if he's staging something big from Murandy too. He'd need access to channellers to transport his forces.


One problem with a 'theory' that Demandred is active at the Black Tower:


Demandred did not immediately recognize who Damer Flinn was at the Cleansing of the Taint, in Winter's Heart book.


Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al’Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al’Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man’s head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 35 "With the Choedan Kal" --Demandred point of view

Who does Demandred not recognize?

Sarene Nemdahl of the White Ajah, a Taraboner, and who sided with the White Tower side in the Aes Sedai civil war. Captured at Dumai's Wells.
Corele Hovian of the Gray Ajah, a Murandian, who headed Elaida's White Tower Embassy to Rand in Cairhien. Captured at Dumai's Wells.
Damer Flinn an Ashaman, an Andoran, who was an Queen's Guard for forty years, who was bonded as a Warder by Corele Hovian. He fought at Dumai's Wells.


In short Demandred did not visit the Black Tower nor likely the White Tower before Dumai's Wells--if at all.



Returning to a Theme of Waygates being associated with Demandred, where did he decide to arrive at--during the Cleansing of the Taint?

Inside the City of Shadar Logoth.


The very same place, which both Lews Therin directly, and Sammael indirectly tied Demandred's activities previously too.


If he could undo what al’Thor had done at the source, Demandred thought as he stepped through his gateway into Shadar Logoth, undo it sharply and suddenly, that might well kill the man, or at least sear the ability to channel out of him. He had reasoned out what al’Thor’s plan had to be as soon as he realized where the access key was. A brilliant scheme, he did not mind admitting, however insanely dangerous. Lews Therin had always been a brilliant planner, too, if not so brilliant as everyone made out. Not nearly as brilliant as Demandred himself.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 35 "With the Choedan Kal" --Demandred point of view

Terez
02-16-2011, 03:07 AM
Demandred doesn't have to be involved with the grunts to be involved with the Black Tower. I figure he was giving Taim orders in the beginning, at least until Moridin showed up, and giving orders to the Darkfriend Asha'man under Taim from time to time if it was important enough (we have proof of this even after Moridin returns), but he wouldn't have likely cared much about the other Asha'man. Mesaana was actually living in the White Tower and posing as an Aes Sedai, but she couldn't even be bothered to know who the members of the Black Ajah were:
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 21 - A Mark

Mesaana was the real source of her annoyance. The Chosen taught what she wished and nothing more, hinted at wonders then withheld them. And Mesaana used her like an errand girl. She sat at the head of the Supreme Council and knew the names of every Black sister in every heart, which was more than Mesaana could say. The woman showed little interest in who would carry out her orders, so long as they were carried out, and to the absolute letter. All too often, she wanted them carried out by Alviarin herself, forcing her to deal with women and men who thought themselves her equals just because they also served the Great Lord. Too many of the Friends thought themselves equal to Aes Sedai, or even superior. Worse, Mesaana forbade her to make an object lesson of even one. Repellent little rodents, none able to channel, and Alviarin had to be polite just because some of them might be serving another of the Chosen! It was obvious that Mesaana did not know for sure. She was one of the Chosen, and she made Alviarin smile at the dust of the street for her uncer*tainty.
Flinn was a good argument against Taimandred, but it's not a good argument against Demandred being involved in the Black Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2011, 03:44 AM
Besides, I doubt Demandred would have tried too hard to throw his weight around in the BT during the time that Dashiva was there too. Which, coincidentally, was most of the time that Damer Flinn was in the BT.
After Rand took Dashiva with him (at Dumai's Wells), Demandred would be the unchallenged leader of the Shadow forces in the BT, of course. But then Flinn was gone too, as he had been assigned to Rand at the same time as Dashiva was.

Terez
02-16-2011, 04:11 AM
Well, both Demandred and Osan'gar were tasked with watching Rand, which implies that they were aware of each other and not necessarily in conflict. And Demandred clearly had the superior position of the two of them (or he would not have been so free with 'blind fools' after the failure in Cairhien, which Dashiva only managed to look embarrassed about), probably because Demandred wasn't on 'last chance' basis for screwing up.

FelixPax
02-16-2011, 07:44 AM
Demandred doesn't have to be involved with the grunts to be involved with the Black Tower.

Oh really, then explain why Osan'gar was at the Black Tower up to Dumai's Wells?

Osan'gar dealt with Taim, inside the Black Tower previously. There is no evidence that Taim was taking ordering from Demandred.


Demandred even had to 'deduce' who Elayne was, inside the Caemlyn Palace (in the TAR).

If Demandred was active at the Black Tower, he'd have far more knowledge of who's who in Andor. Besides Andor was Rahvin's domain up to TFoH book.

Let alone if Demandred had visited the Black Tower, he'd have a good chance of seeing Rand in LoC book.


I figure he was giving Taim orders in the beginning, at least until Moridin showed up, and giving orders to the Darkfriend Asha'man under Taim from time to time if it was important enough (we have proof of this even after Moridin returns), but he wouldn't have likely cared much about the other Asha'man.

Your proof is what?

So far that's just speculation, Terez: Demandred "ordering" Taim around. :rolleyes:

If that was true, Taim, Demandred AND Moridin would not have needed to EACH give orders to kill Rand al'Thor in Far Madding.


First--M'Hael gives orders
Second--Demandred "later" gives orders
Third--Moridin "later still" gives orders
Fourth--Kisman implies that Taim is stronger in Saidin than Osan'gar is.

Meaning it is NOT likely Osan'gar is giving Taim many orders at, without another stronger Chosen's command to do so: e.g. Moghedien or Moridin.



“Kill him,” the M’Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M’Hael had killed him, and he did not care.

“Kill him,” Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M’Hael, as if he did not know of Taim’s order.

And later still, Moridin had said, “Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions.” The man said he was one of the Chosen, and no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al’Thor’s belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental and not really necessary.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 22 "Out of Thin Air" -- Raefar Kisman point of view; memories of Moridin, Demandred, Taim, Osan'gar


Facts about Demandred:

He had not seen Moridin for some time. How is that know? Saa in Moridin's eyes.


Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin’s blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly. He himself had never touched the True Power except at need. Great need. Of course, only Moridin had that privilege now, since his . . . anointing. The man truly was insane to use it so freely. It was a drug more addictive than saidin, more deadly than poison.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 13 "Wonderful News" -- Demandred point of view; with Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Graendal, Semirhage


Even Osan'gar seems to have been 'surprised' about the sheer number of Saa in Moridin's eyes. Thus implying Osan'gar has not interacted with Moridin recently, either.

Crossing the striped floor, Moridin laid a hand on Osan’gar’s shoulder, his smile made more ominous by the saa. The shorter man swallowed, and gave a wavering smile in return. “It is well you’ve never considered how to remove the Great Lord’s shadow,” Moridin said quietly. How long had he been outside? Osan’gar’s smile grew even more sickly. “Al’Thor is not as wise as you. Tell them, Cyndane.”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 13 "Wonderful News" -- Demandred point of view; with Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Graendal, Semirhage


Demandred decides to "watch" Graendal's actions in the future:


Graendal’s wineglass had dropped from her hand as soon the words were out of Cyndane’s mouth, bouncing end over end across the floor. Her gown turned as crimson as fresh blood, and her mouth twisted as if she were going to vomit. “And you’ve just been hoping to blunder into him!” she screamed at Demandred. “Hoping someone will find him for you! Fool! Fool!”

Demandred thought Graendal had been a touch flamboyant even for her. He would wager the announcement had been no surprise to her. It seemed she bore watching. He said nothing.


Winter's Heart, Chapter 13 "Wonderful News" -- Demandred point of view; with Moridin, Moghedien, Cyndane, Osan'gar, Aran'gar, Graendal, Semirhage


Sammael enjoys gaining people's attention; while its implied that Demandred can live without attention for long periods of time.


“He could never have borne staying hidden this long,' Demandred put in, lounging into his chair between Semirhage and Mesaana, legs crossed as though perfectly at ease. That seemed doubtful. He was another who was unreconciled, she was sure. ”Sammael needed to have every eye directed at him."


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 3 "At the Gardens" -- Demandred point of view



An alternate candidate:

Who else "knew" who Taim was?

Moghedien, possibility.



Moghedien gasped. Not for the name; any fool could call himself Death. But a tiny black fleck, just large enough to see, floated straight across one of those blue eyes and then across the other in the same line. This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more. She knew that some men who could channel survived in this time aside from al’Thor—this fellow was much of a size with al’Thor—but she had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen knew. In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view; meeting Moridin the 1st time.



Why did Moridin need to inform multiple Chosen about 100,000+ missing Shadowspawn supposedly ordered by a Sammael or person disguised like Sammael?

Bluntedly, because of Demandred.
Why?

This 100,000+ Shadowspawn army likely was taken away from Demandred growing force of Shadowspawn. Moridin want to deflect Demandred from his true goals.


Moridin's jaw tightened. “I don't know,'' he said at last, reluctantly. He never liked saying that. “But they sent a hundred Myrddraal and thousands of Trollocs into the Ways.”

“That sounds like Sammael,” Demandred said thoughtfully, twisting his goblet and studying the swirling wine. “Perhaps I was mistaken.” A remarkable admission, coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her own game. Or whether Sammael really was alive.


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 3 "At the Gardens" -- Demandred point of view; with Moridin, Aran'gar, Graendal, Semirhage, Osan'gar, Cyndane

How can reader's figure out Moridin was ultimately behind that attack upon Rand in Tear?

The image of Moridin's face popping up in Rand's consciousness (KoD).

Heinz
02-16-2011, 01:30 PM
I'm sorry, Felix, but I do not see how your post really address why Demandred is or isn't the King of Murandy, or is using said King as a proxy. Or what do you think Demandred is up to, if he is not in Murandy? You say Terez is just using speculation, not facts. But then you use quotes which are themselves wild speculation, and in some cases un-related to the subject at hand.


Demandred even had to 'deduce' who Elayne was, inside the Caemlyn Palace (in the TAR).

If Demandred was active at the Black Tower, he'd have far more knowledge of who's who in Andor. Besides Andor was Rahvin's domain up to TFoH book.

Let alone if Demandred had visited the Black Tower, he'd have a good chance of seeing Rand in LoC book.

If Demandred is passing orders to Taim, he doesn't necessarily need to be in the Black Tower. Taim could be going to Demandred (in Murandy or wherever), or sending messengers back and forth. Conjecture? Sure. But no more than your assumption that Demandred would know all people of Andor. Especially considering Elayne was on her way to the Tower to begin her novice training at the end of tEotW, and did not return until what, WH? In short, she was not around Andor much to be seen. And as far as I can remember, she has only visited the Black Tower once herself.

Now going on the theory that Taim is 'under' Demandred and/or Moridin, it would be more likely that Taim is 'taking care of' the Black Tower so that the Chosen themselves are not constantly mired there. Therefore, it would not make as much sense for Demandred to be there himself, or why have Taim in place?

And finally, whether Demandred is or isn't passing orders to Taim does not answer why you think Demandred is or isn't in Murandy, either posing as King Roedran or using the King as a proxy.

(I personally am not sure of Taim's place or identity. He seems to have an incredibly free hand to act as he wills, which I find odd for a non-Chosen. But I also do not find it tells me one thing or another about where Demandred is.)






Fourth--Kisman implies that Taim is stronger in Saidin than Osan'gar is.

Meaning it is NOT likely Osan'gar is giving Taim many orders at, without another stronger Chosen's command to do so: e.g. Moghedien or Moridin.
[/LIST][/INDENT]


What did this have to do with the topic again? It is more relavent to the Lanfear/Cyndane discussion of strength after the DO transferring a soul of a Chosen to a new body, than with who or where Demandred is.





Facts about Demandred:

He had not seen Moridin for some time. How is that know? Saa in Moridin's eyes.



How did this prove Demandred had not seen Moridin in some time? It actually implied that the time was short. "...using the True Power exclusively since the last time he saw him to gain so many saa so quickly." The only measure of time I see in that phrase indicates that a shorter amount of time has passed than Demandred thought possible for the acquisition of so many saa. We do not know how much time that was. We do not know what the typical or average gain of saa is over a given span of time, so we cannot measure this span of time off of it. So... what fact do we have here, aside from that Moridin is using the True Power a lot, which also does not apply to the whereabouts of Demandred?


Even Osan'gar seems to have been 'surprised' about the sheer number of Saa in Moridin's eyes. Thus implying Osan'gar has not interacted with Moridin recently, either.


Again, your 'fact' says nothing about what you seem to think it does. Osan'gar thinks Moridin looks more ominous with the saa. How did that tell us that Osan'gar was surprised or had not seen Moridin recently? There isn't even a reference of time in the passage. And again, no relavence to the whereabouts of Demandred.


Demandred decides to "watch" Graendal's actions in the future:


I agree with your assessment of the quote, at least, but not why it has any relavence to the topic at hand.





Sammael enjoys gaining people's attention; while its implied that Demandred can live without attention for long periods of time.


Again, I am unsure of the relavence, except that this might lean toward supporting that Demandred is or is using King Roedran. Or unless you're trying to build an argument for Demandred being elsewhere. If so, by all means, post that theory and the location you have deduced.



An alternate candidate:

Who else "knew" who Taim was?

Moghedien, possibility.


How did that quote indicate that Moghedian knew who Taim was, and how that indicates that Demandred is not in Murandy? This literally only tells us that Moghedien knows the Red Ajah did not find and gentle all men who could channel in the present age. By Crown of Swords, I don't think this is a dramatic revelation, so I'm not sure what this is supposed to indicate about anything. Again, unless you're using this to build that Demandred is elsewhere, where there are other men who can channel and Moghedien knows about it.


So I am just not sure where you are going with your counter-proof. And as I'm among those who feels pretty strongly that Demandred is in Murandy, I am curious on the counter-proof. You will have to do a lot better though, in my opinion.

Murandy is slighted and generally ignored by the 'great nations' such as Illian or Andor. Its nobles are viewed as dis-jointed and squabbling, only unifying to push out external influences so they can return to internal intrueges. This is, in fact, one of the changes which supports Demandred's presence in Murandy as the nation actually begins to unify for a change. Yet as Roedran consolidates power, his only out-reach of external diplomacy is to... the Seanchan. Where until recently, another Chosen held sway. A Chosen which had been working with Demandred on plots. No matter that Andor, Illian, Tear and Cairhein all surround Murandy and would be logical places to send emissaries to. So instead of Roedran being Jordan's version of Ethelred the Unready - whom he began the series as actually - he instead becomes an Alfred the Great, or Otto von Bismarck; using and sometimes fabricating external threats to consolidate his position of power. Very unlike his previous behavior, from what we previously knew of Roedran in quotes from the series (which are nicely mapped in Terez's article, so I won't repost them all).

If someone asked me to place a percentage on 'how sure' I am about Demandred in Murandy, I'd reply about 90% sure. My doubts focus around:
a) That we've figured it out, when it was indicated that it was very difficult to do so. It seems a natural deduction for me, so that it should be difficult has me questioning the answer we've come up with.
b) That he could be in another nation that isn't really talked about at all. Such as Shara or somewhere else. This is entirely possible, except that Brandon indicated that there are clues to find. There are puzzle pieces to put together for Murandy. There are none for Shara. So I work on the puzzle I can.

Yellowbeard
02-16-2011, 02:30 PM
somehow i bet felix is cackling in laughter.

amazinglarry
02-16-2011, 03:36 PM
But then you use quotes which are themselves wild speculation, and in some cases un-related to the subject at hand.

Your eloquent and well-composed response to Felix's post leads me to believe that you haven't seen his theory that Valan Luca is a hero of the horn because he wears a cape. Check it out when you get a chance. It may help you decide whether it is worthwhile to engage Felix in discussion using tactics like "facts" and "reason."

amazinglarry

Juan
02-16-2011, 08:21 PM
@Yellowbeard
Probably hahaha

@larry
He does have an obsession with Luca...

It's interesting though how his crazy theories actually make a weird sort of sense in the way he types them. Not that I agree with them in the least, but you know, they're entertaining to read.

Mavrick3020
02-16-2011, 08:43 PM
I had a theory about Demandred, Taim and the Black Tower that went something like this:

Taim is not actually Taim, but a darkfriend channeler trained by Ishamael. After the stone fell, Demandred started gathering what darkfriends he could from Ishamael and Bel'al's camps to act as his proxies.
Around the time Rand took Cairhien, and knowing Rand would need someone to teach him, he engineers Taim's "escape" from the Reds and has his darkfriend channeler replace him and approach Rand.
Rand takes Caemlyn and offers his amnesty. This being the perfect opportunity, NewTaim approaches Rand, in hopes to get on his good side. Instead, Rand tasks him with teaching men to channel at the farm. Seeing what a valuable resource this could be, Demandred starts using Taim to gather what darkfriends he can find that can learn to channel and teach them. Eventually he also starts using a circle and Myrdraal to start turning some of the better recruits into Dreadlords.

I know it has holes, but it does explain some things. Demandred being in Murandy is a good theory because it does make sense...unless his minions really are in Seanchan leading the insurrection there.

FelixPax
02-17-2011, 12:21 AM
I'm sorry, Felix, but I do not see how your post really address why Demandred is or isn't the King of Murandy, or is using said King as a proxy.

See post #19 in this thread for some factors as to why.


As to additional reasons as to why he is not King of Demandred, and where his interests are:


It is a weak nation surrounded by relatively stronger nations. Example both Andoran nobles and Illianers under Sammael conquered lands within the borders of Murandy: in the South and the North.

No Waygates are located within the borders of Murandy at all. Neither Loial, Elder Haman listed a single Waygate in Murandy. Nor does the BWB guidebook mention a single Waygate in Murandy.

Demandred is using Waygates as a transportation mechanism to move this forces into position.

Slayer and Darkhounds have scouted & cleared at least two major corridors: (1)Shadow Coast Mountains to Mountains of Mist; (2)Shadow Coast Mountains up to roughly Whitebridge. Neither corridor has "wolves" native to the area, now. Wolves have been systematically killed. Recall how Perrin was required to call in Wolves to attack the Shiado Aiel in Altara? There's a good reason for that.

Murandy is not a nation where Demandred could attack Semirhage's Seanchan pawns, by surprise nor succeed.

Graendal claims not to know where Demandred is at all. Former Tairen High Lady Alteima fled into Murandy, after Rahvin was killed. Alteima is a person who manipulated & aided King Roedran not Demandred. Except Alteima is described in 'Towers of Midnight' as being next to Graendal in her Sea Folk island cave lair. Thus, King Roedran is not Demandred, because Graendal would have KNOWN.

Demandred is a General. What advantages do General's prefer in war?


Surprise (e.g. ability to dictate when, where, how to attack without enemy's knowledge)
Superior forces (e.g. 15 Trollocs to every 1 Human),
Reliable distribution system (e.g. Waygates), Attacking open undefended flanks (e.g. Seanchan southern flank to Shadow Coast Mountain)
Ability to move quickly with few obstacles (e.g. water, bridges. Remember Trollocs fear water.)
Possession of the Heights (e.g. Mountains) Superior firepower (e.g. Giant Sa'angreal in Black Hills)
Letting one's enemies to kill themselves off first, then launch a massive surprise attack

E.g. Seanchan Empire attacks Illian, by moving forces southward out of Murandy.

Semirhage & Suroth made an agreement with King Roedran, Alteima & possibly Padan Fain Mordeth. Mordeth knew how the Seanchan Bloods think (see Lord Turak scenes with Padan Fain).

Where Demandred comes into this complex equation is the majority Seanchan Military will not be along the Southern Border to the Shadow Coast Mountains. A Border called the "Southern Gate" by Amadicia's now dead King Ailron. The Point is Demandred will overrun Seanchan Empire's southern flank with relative ease. Shadowspawn will gain possession & control over the Mountains of Mists in AMoL book

Ebou Dar & the Rahad will be under Siege in AMoL Book. That's a guarantee.


Why the Rahad too? Because a Waygate is located just to the North of the Rahad. What's of value there? Raken, To'raken airfield command headquarters.

Where else will Demandred's forces attack?


Whitebridge. Why? To gain control of the bridge.
Two Rivers. Why? Because it's Rand al'Thor's homeland, that's reason enough for Demandred.
Tear & the Stone. Why? Because Demandred has personally scouted it out (LoC, Prologue--Mesaana pov). Secondly, because there are ample Waygates from Shienar to Tear in the Mountains. Third, it's implied by Loial's Mother there is an abandoned Stedding just north of Tear too. Fourth, the Forest between Tear & Cairhien is huge. Thus it's easy to hide Shadowspawn there. Fifth, this Forest abuts a 'mountain pass' between the Westlands and the Aiel Waste which is not used by anyone else.

Kandor & Arafel. How? From the South, moving northwards to join up with forces moving out of the Blight. Remember the Waygate in the Black Hills? Well, that's how Demandred created yet ANOTHER force of Shadowspawn in the Westlands. Relatively easy to crunch a foe with a Hammer and an Anvil: Hammer moving out of the Black Hills; Anvil moving out of the Blight border.


Murandy has hints of becoming a neo-Aridhol nation (TFoH to TofM books). How? Employing the far seeing educational tools created by top-selling author, advisor & oracle Padan Fain Mordeth, "How to Fight the Shadow, and Lose Your Soul to Gain Freedom" ;) Even King's read Mordeth's bestsellers. :D

FelixPax
02-17-2011, 12:32 AM
It may help you decide whether it is worthwhile to engage Felix in discussion using tactics like "facts" and "reason."

amazinglarry

Please don't follow Larry's advice, regarding a boycott of a discussion's give & take. All that will do, is kill off Theoryland as a Forum. :(

Daekyras
02-17-2011, 07:21 AM
Please don't follow Larry's advice, regarding a boycott of a discussion's give & take. All that will do, is kill off Theoryland as a Forum. :(

good point. Although it is always at an individuals descretion.

One thing, it was Demandred that released the gholam wasn't it?

Terez
02-17-2011, 07:23 AM
Probably Sammael, as he was the one ordering it in ACOS. Also, we know he found a stasis box.

Daekyras
02-17-2011, 09:50 AM
Probably Sammael, as he was the one ordering it in ACOS. Also, we know he found a stasis box.

my bad, thanks T.

kasper11
02-25-2011, 08:02 AM
I am re-reading TFOH, and I don't think I can buy Demandred as Roedran. There are two scenesin this book that take place in Lugard, one from Suian's point of view and one from Bryne's. The people seem...normal. The city is more raunchy than others in WOT, but this is how Luganders normally are.

Contrast this with what we saw in TDR in Tear, Illian and Andor, where the Foresaken were ruling. There, the people changed. They were more suspicious, or lethargic, or angry. The Foresaken had an effect on the people they were ruling that is completely absent from Lugard.

Also, when Roedran is first mentioned, he is not mentioned as being a new king. Again, contrast with Rhavin, Sammeal and Belal, all of whom created a new persona. It is obviously much more difficult to become an existing person, too many people are likely to recognize a fake. The only exception I can think of is Mesaana, but she chose a young Aes Sedai, not a leader.

Finally, as of TFOH, Rodrean had still done nothing to consolidate power. He is described as a king in name only beyond the capital. It isn't until the Band appears that Rodrean finally starts to build up his power. That seems like an awfully long time for Demandred to wait.

Enigma
02-25-2011, 08:11 AM
Be'lal and Sammael were being careless when they didn't shield their dreams which had an effect on the population of the city.

To be fair to them at the time there were very very few people who would realse what was going on let alone be able to do anything about it. Demandred has been described as one of the most dangerous of the forsaken both in the AoL when he was always in the top ranks and in the current age.

If he wanted to stay under the radar it would be easy enought for him to shield his dreams. As for the slow build up of his forces what it to say that Demandred had only one iron in the fire. He may have wanted his build up to be slow and steady so as not to attract attention while at the same time allowing him to do other things at the same time.

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 08:12 AM
Contrast this with what we saw in TDR in Tear, Illian and Andor, where the Foresaken were ruling. There, the people changed. They were more suspicious, or lethargic, or angry.Then again, we do not notice such a change in Tar Valon, where Mesaana took over. Of course, this could be explained by the fact that AS are suspicious, lethargic, and angry anyways.

Seriously: it is a good point. Doesn't mean that Roedran can't be used by Demandred, of course. He may be based elsewhere himself, which would explain the lack of noticeable changes in the general population.

Terez
02-25-2011, 09:15 AM
We don't have any evidence that Demandred is posing as Roedran until TPOD. There is nothing to say he was there in TFOH.

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 09:32 AM
But on the other hand, it seems unlikely that Demandred could manage to impersonate a fairly well known person like an actual king. None of the other Forsaken even tried that; the closest any came to it was Mesaana with her "unknown AS" disguise.

Apart from Ishamael impersonating the DO, but that probably does not really count.

Terez
02-25-2011, 09:34 AM
But on the other hand, it seems unlikely that Demandred could manage to impersonate a fairly well known person like an actual king.
A king of a rather unimportant country. In any case, we know he is posing as someone, and we know we can figure it out, so it has to be Roedran.

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 10:07 AM
A king of a rather unimportant country. In any case, we know he is posing as someone, and we know we can figure it out, so it has to be Roedran.Even a king of a rather unimportant country will have dozens of people (chamber maids, privy councillors, stable hands, and so forth) who are very familiar with him, some of whom will have known him since his child hood.

Do you think that Demandred could have pulled off impersonating Perrin in the TR?

Terez
02-25-2011, 10:11 AM
Even a king of a rather unimportant country will have dozens of people (chamber maids, privy councillors, stable hands, and so forth) who are very familiar with him, some of whom will have known him since his child hood.
Nothing a few deaths couldn't fix.

Heinz
02-25-2011, 10:21 AM
Perrin cannot use Compulsion or other tricks of the Power. There are a lot of things Demandred could do to make key people say 'Yep, that's Roedran. He's just changing to make us stronger.' And who will dispute it? And if someone is suspicious, whose to say they will wake the next day?

As for the effect Be'lal and Sammael had on Tear and Illian; we don't know when they necessarily took their places compared to Demandred. I also don't recall the same effects in Caemlyn with Rhavin. Sure, he brought in a bunch of thugs and people were more wary, and growing more impatient with Morgase as a result of things that Rhavin was doing in her name. None of the points of view within Caemlyn suggested there was the same hopelessness that Tear and Illian had. The only similar hint we had was in tDR when Basil Gil says that he had a dream which his cook also claimed to have had or heard about, and he traced the rumor back to somewhere else (he didn't realize it was probably Rhavin's dream that they were all having).

Mesaana doesn't seem to have that effect on Tar Valon. The Aes Sedai are, I believe, shielded from this. IIRC, Moraine mentions that she doesn't have these dreams in the beginning of tDR. But the rest of the city doesn't seem to have the same issues. I would think the Aes Sedai would be all over that if the city people all were having the same dreams. Again, perhaps one hint at it with all the garbage piling up in the city, but that is usually attributed to Elaida's mismanaging of Tar Valon and the Amyrlin Seat.

Semirhage in Seanchan doesn't seem to have the effect. True, we do not get much information about Seanchan. But what we do get certainly does not imply funny dreams or hopelessness. And I'm quite certain we would get something from Tuon if she was having weird dreams, and the same dreams others were having, during her boat ride over to Randland.

So, I do not find the lack of these things in Murandy conclusive as a sign that Demandred is not in Murandy.

Spasmodean
02-25-2011, 05:36 PM
Have you considered that the feeling of hopelessness etc that were being spread in Tear and Illian were due to some active process set in motion by the ruling Forsaken? Rather than their actual presence?


What better way to sap a people's will and make them compliant as a whole.

"They would fight for the Great Lord, willingly or otherwise"

We see phrases like this all over the books from the Forsaken.

Also consider: The Aiel etc spent how long in the vicinity of TWO Forsaken during the trek to Cold Rocks Hold? And none of them showed the same "symptoms".

maacaroni
02-28-2011, 04:38 AM
From a plot/logic standpoint, Mat is due a standoff with a forsaken. Perrin (or P-man, to his mates) had his with Graendel in ToM.

Is it too much of a stretch to see Mat out-generalling Demandred in aMoL?

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2011, 04:53 AM
Well, Mat already stood Halima up (all right, not off, if you want to be really picky) when she asked him for a dance.
He has also faced Lanfear and survived, despite being his normal self at the time.
And he won his wager with Rahvin.

FelixPax
02-28-2011, 05:54 AM
A king of a rather unimportant country. In any case, we know he is posing as someone, and we know we can figure it out, so it has to be Roedran.

A King who lost land on his Northern and Southern borders, yet Demandred is supposed to be one of the Shadow's best generals?


It does not fit at all.


Demandred would not let Sammael push him around, nor his pawns. Demandred knows Sammael far to well.


Terez's original assumptions, to where Demandred must rule are faulty. Why? She limited to her search of places where Demandred rules, known places already mentioned directly. She ignores former kingdoms in many other places on the Westlands map. Let alone Shadow Ogier Elders who have allied with Demandred (e.g. Borderlands Stedding; at least one Stedding in Tear; one Stedding in the Black Hills; two Steddings in Shadow Coast Mountains; Blight Steddings).

Graendal's blind spot is the same as Terez's, as to where Demandred's forces are located.
Graendal does not like nature; Demandred forces are in the rural mountainous back country.
Graendal is clueless because of her own biases and assumptions.

Terez
02-28-2011, 06:09 AM
A King who lost land on his Northern and Southern borders, yet Demandred is supposed to be one of the Shadow's best generals?
As I said, nothing to say Demandred was in Murandy before TPOD or so, at which time he set to rectifying the weak position of Murandy by hiring the Band to unite the nobles.

She limited to her search of places where Demandred rules, known places already mentioned directly.
This is because Brandon said we can figure out who Demandred is. None of the other rulers are known to us.