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Yellowbeard
02-14-2011, 12:52 PM
Rand will die and then will stay dead, living on in TAR w/ the rest of the HotH until his next rebirth.

I've been doing a lot of reading about parallels between Arthurian Legend and WoT. I've known they were there all along, but I've come to the opinion that just as Arthur was taken to Avalon to supposedly come back again when needed after his death, so too will Rand also not come back again until needed. I.e. his next rebirth when he is spun out for whatever purpose the wheel spins him out for again.

Nynaeve might be the WoT's version of the Lady of the Lake, but even she didn't resurrect Arthur after his death.

Terez
02-14-2011, 01:10 PM
Well, yeah. You can't resurrect someone before they die.

Yellowbeard
02-14-2011, 01:32 PM
you saying rand won't die at all?

Terez
02-14-2011, 01:45 PM
No?

Juan
02-14-2011, 11:34 PM
As I've said a billion times, I'm no prophecy expert, but I'll pitch in with my idea on the whole he will die and live and blah blah.

I think that already happened. He was dying and then you could say he died with the whole Semirhage episode and it caused him to have his enlightenment. He died (the old evil Rand), and was reborn/lived again as the lovable super Rand.

Crispin's Crispian
02-17-2011, 12:11 PM
No?

To be fair, it took me a couple reads to get the joke. Not of your post, but of exactly what you were responding to. Then I chuckled. Maybe that's not fair. How arrogant of me to say that.

Anyway, "He who is dead yet lives" seems like a rather strong endorsement of resurrection or something like it. I'm not sure I'd be satisfied with the "yet lives" being fulfilled by HotH status in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Terez
02-17-2011, 01:20 PM
I always went for the 'Rand will die and stay dead and maybe be called by the Horn' option until TGS, at which point it became more obvious that Rand was going to live (after dying, of course). At that point I started seriously considering the Nynaeve-rips-Rand-out-of-Tel'aran'rhiod theory, and I found some pretty blatant foreshadowings (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_988dx3mgj4k&revision=_latest#4._Rand_will_die_and_be_resurrect ed.) for it, so now I'm convinced. I'm thinking I am missing one that has to do with Aviendha somehow. It's not in her POV, but I bet there is one somewhere, cause I found two for Nynaeve and one for Min and one for Elayne.

Res_Ipsa
02-18-2011, 12:57 AM
I am somewhat wondering if Rowling beat RJ to the punch. I wonder if Rand/Moridon's crossed BF has created a link requiring both of their demises or a a special criteria for how Rand can not die, think Horcruxes so long as Moridin lives and the opposite is true as well.

Zombie Sammael
02-18-2011, 07:08 AM
1. Fain (the random factor) kills Rand, and is killed by Moridin or Shaidar Haran.

2. Oh nos! The Shadow has won!

3. Three people (three on the boat) enter TAR and use need to find the Dragon.

4. Dragon goes to Shayol Ghul in TAR and is able to seal the bore.

5. Something happens that causes him to be ripped out of TAR.

6. He who is dead yet lives.

7. Profit.

Terez
02-18-2011, 08:27 AM
Almost. A few problems with it, but close.

Mort
02-18-2011, 09:53 AM
1. Fain (the random factor) kills Rand, and is killed by Moridin or Shaidar Haran.

2. Oh nos! The Shadow has won!

3. Three people (three on the boat) enter TAR and use need to find the Dragon.

4. Dragon goes to Shayol Ghul in TAR and is able to seal the bore.

5. Something happens that causes him to be ripped out of TAR.

6. He who is dead yet lives.

7. Profit.

So far as we know, Shayol Ghul isn't accessible through TAR (according to Verin at least). Perhaps that could be one of the things that are regarded as impossible (or were, like healing stilling) but I don't think it is. I dunno what I think about the ending really.

Rand bob-sledding down Shayol Ghul on Shaidar Haran, plugging up the Bore with his body? Everything is possible at this point.

Crispin's Crispian
02-18-2011, 10:46 AM
So far as we know, Shayol Ghul isn't accessible through TAR (according to Verin at least). Perhaps that could be one of the things that are regarded as impossible (or were, like healing stilling) but I don't think it is. I dunno what I think about the ending really.

Rand bob-sledding down Shayol Ghul on Shaidar Haran, plugging up the Bore with his body? Everything is possible at this point.

A few of us have always held that the Pit of Doom and/or the Bore (as we've seen it in the books) is a special part of Tel'aran'rhiod. The things that happen there to Demandred and others seem to indicate there are reality-bending properties reminiscent of the Unseen World.

I've always thought Rand would have to do something in Tel'aran'rhiod in order to seal the Bore, or would have to have some help to do so. Given the magical powers of the Heroes and the weird stuff that went down at Falme, I think the Horn of Valere acts to merge the real world with Tel'aran'rhiod. If that's the case, Mat could blow the Horn at Shayol Ghul and merge the two realities together. At that point, Rand (dead or alive) could seal the Bore in both the Dream World and the Real World.

I think it's possible that Lews Therin's Seals were placed in Tel'aran'rhiod with focus points in the real world. This was an incomplete solution, however, and Rand/Min will develop a better one.

Terez
02-18-2011, 11:26 AM
Yeah, Dom from over Wotmania-ish way has pontificated quite a bit on how he thinks Egwene is going to have to seal the bore using Tel'aran'rhiod (and I can see Perrin helping, but I can't recall if Dom said anything about that). Would make me laugh so hard at all the Egwene-haters in the seals discussion if Rand breaking the seals really is as idiotic as it seems and Egwene has to fix it.

Marie Curie 7
02-18-2011, 11:39 PM
So far as we know, Shayol Ghul isn't accessible through TAR (according to Verin at least).

RJ apparently did state that the Blight was not accessible from TAR:

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Blight: you cannot enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and cannot be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

So I would assume that would also include Shayol Ghul since it is located in the Blight.

In addition, I expect that many of the the weird effects experienced at Shayol Ghul can be attributed to the Dark One's touch there. According to Brandon, the True Power can rip apart and rebuild the Pattern as it desires:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark One's relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?

Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern. That is not a direct answer to your question but I think there are enough implications in there that certain things can be discussed.

While the effects observed in the Pit of Doom, such as the decreasing size of the tunnel, may appear to be similar to effects experienced in TAR, I think they also may be attributed to effects of the Dark One/True Power to remake the Pattern as desired.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 01:49 PM
Some interesting discussion here. If you believe that Rand will be ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod after his first death (perhaps falling to the Midnight Towers, in keeping with the Shadow Prophecy), where do you think he's going to go afterwards?

Aviendha's glass column visions are probably not set in stone - she's said she's going to change them, and since they're a different kind of viewing than Min's viewings or One Power Foretelling, it's possible she'll succeed at that. She might succeed at getting the Dragon's Peace expanded to include the Aiel; at pushing them back towards the Way of the Leaf. It's possible that she'll keep him from bowing to Fortuona, making it more likely that the Seanchan will stay bound. Maybe she'll succeed at getting Fortuona to channel, or otherwise convince the Seanchan to abandon the sul'dam/damane system. However, I don't think she's likely to change how Rand wins the Last Battle, or what he does afterwards.

Now, perhaps it's telling that Rand and Aviendha's daughter, in the Rhuidean vision chapter, thought of Rand as having "gone," "leaving them," not as having died. It might be a euphemism for death, or it might indicate that he somehow leaves without dying, after having been raised from the dead in the manner you're suggesting. Perhaps they'll figure out how to right what Moghedien did to Birgitte, and what you think Nynaeve will do to Rand, sending them back into Tel'aran'rhiod as Heroes.

The main problem I have with this solution is that it seems metaphysically broken. If (A) the Heroes of the Horn can be safely torn out of Tel'aran'rhiod without consequences to their place as Heroes or their place in the Pattern of the Ages, and (B) the Heroes of the Horn can be found by need, despite their attempts to follow the precepts; the only limitation on the ability of people in the real world to draw out all of the Heroes is knowledge of the ability. It seems unbalanced, and Jordan has done a very good job of crafting a mythos that is balanced.

I like the idea. I think the general idea; that Rand dies, is resurrected, and wins the day, is almost certainly how it will go. But I'm not sure I like the implication of the method you're suggesting to the overall balance of the system unless there's some other limitation we're not aware of.

Terez
02-28-2011, 02:24 PM
Some interesting discussion here. If you believe that Rand will be ripped from Tel'aran'rhiod after his first death (perhaps falling to the Midnight Towers, in keeping with the Shadow Prophecy), where do you think he's going to go afterwards?
Home, duh. It fits with many foreshadowings in the books, not to mention parallels to some of the relatively recent Arthurian legends in which Arthur is sometimes seen haunting the forest. I imagine he will set up a place deep in the Westwood - perhaps protected by a 'king's forest' type of law - and that Elayne and Aviendha will visit him by gateway whenever they have the time (Min will just live with him since she hasn't got anything better to do, and it's only fair since she will die a lot earlier than the rest of them).

The main problem I have with this solution is that it seems metaphysically broken. If (A) the Heroes of the Horn can be safely torn out of Tel'aran'rhiod without consequences to their place as Heroes or their place in the Pattern of the Ages, and (B) the Heroes of the Horn can be found by need, despite their attempts to follow the precepts; the only limitation on the ability of people in the real world to draw out all of the Heroes is knowledge of the ability.
And sufficient Need. That's the key. What Need could be greater than this? If the Dragon Reborn dies before fulfilling the prophecies, then the world is pretty much fucked. It may be that the heroes can only be found with Need this great - they are supposed to be able to hide from even the most skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Also, the knowledge of the ability is something that I imagine the Pattern is very careful with.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Home, duh. It fits with many foreshadowings in the books, not to mention parallels to some of the relatively recent Arthurian legends in which Arthur is sometimes seen haunting the forest. I imagine he will set up a place deep in the Westwood - perhaps protected by a 'king's forest' type of law - and that Elayne and Aviendha will visit him by gateway whenever they have the time (Min will just live with him since she hasn't got anything better to do, and it's only fair since she will die a lot earlier than the rest of them).


And sufficient Need. That's the key. What Need could be greater than this? If the Dragon Reborn dies before fulfilling the prophecies, then the world is pretty much fucked. It may be that the heroes can only be found with Need this great - they are supposed to be able to hide from even the most skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Also, the knowledge of the ability is something that I imagine the Pattern is very careful with.

I'm not sure I agree with either conclusion (I'm not sure I disagree with the second, though). As for the first, we'll have to wait and see; but living in the middle of the Wetlands, practically on the line between the Seanchan and the Wetlanders and Aiel, is not exactly "leaving," even if it might be hiding.

As for the second, they're not fucked if he's not there. It could always end in a draw, without him. In fact, when the Dragon has turned Dark in the past, it still ended in a draw. Might be sufficient need. Unless there's something to actually make this a loss, though, it seems strange to me for the Pattern to recognize that as sufficient need.

Terez
02-28-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm not sure I agree with either conclusion (I'm not sure I disagree with the second, though). As for the first, we'll have to wait and see; but living in the middle of the Wetlands, practically on the line between the Seanchan and the Wetlanders and Aiel, is not exactly "leaving," even if it might be hiding.
If no one knows where he has gone, then why not? The Aiel would have believed that he left them.

Of course, it doesn't seem to make much sense that even his children didn't know him. But I'm assuming that a few things are going to be different, so...

I used to support the theory that he would die and stay dead. When I started to realize he probably had to die before he saved the day, I assumed that he would have to finish the job via the Horn. But TGS convinced me that he will live. He can hardly live out in the open. Then we've got all this foreshadowing about going home...and I think that's one of the places where RJ kind of throws the trope. Usually the farmboy becomes a king and when the story ends he is a king and he's happy about it. But Rand really does want to go back home. His return to the Two Rivers is foreshadowed so repeatedly that it is impossible to ignore.

The reason why TGS convinced me that he will live is that all of the building of hope had been piling up throughout the series, but Brandon laid it on a little thicker than RJ ever did. You can't build up that kind of hope and then not let him survive the series, because for every pragmatist that believes he should stay dead, there are at least ten fans who would be very unhappy with that outcome. That's an anecdotal statistic for the most part, but just look at the results for the poll on DM so far, or the poll I've done here. Very few people believe that Rand will end the series dead, and most don't want Rand to end the series dead, despite knowing he has to die.

As for the second, they're not fucked if he's not there. It could always end in a draw, without him. In fact, when the Dragon has turned Dark in the past, it still ended in a draw. Might be sufficient need. Unless there's something to actually make this a loss, though, it seems strange to me for the Pattern to recognize that as sufficient need.It's different this time because the Pattern is falling apart. If Rand doesn't win, the Pattern will be destroyed.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 03:30 PM
Not many people wanted Robb Stark to die in A Song of Ice and Fire, and yet there wasn't some kind of fan uprising over the fact that he did.

Don't get me wrong, I think that Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson are more Tolkienesque in that they are trying to end it happily, but I think that if they break the rules we know to do it, they're going to do so carefully. To me, this theory doesn't feel complete, in light of that. :(

Terez
02-28-2011, 03:46 PM
I'm still not seeing why, though. And what rules are being broken?

nameless
02-28-2011, 06:47 PM
These days I'm leaning a lot more strongly towards the "Rand will die and stay dead" camp. I think the solution to the Sealing problem will be for Rand to let Fain and the Dark One kill each other, and the only way for him to do it will be to sacrifice himself to one or both of them. It will be like a macrocosm of the wounds in his side: Shadar Logoth fighting with the Shadow and using Rand's body as the battleground. Dying to preserve the land is the only way he can fulfill his role as Brahma/Dionysus/Christ.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 07:46 PM
I'm not sure how I feel about the theory that Fain will kill the Dark One. One can only wait and see, but it's a pretty strange idea. I wouldn't be satisfied by it - Fain's ridiculous, but my concept of him would put him (at most) as powerful as one of the Forsaken.

Juan
02-28-2011, 08:05 PM
Yeah. I wouldn't be cool with Fain fighting the DO.

Also... if Fain fights the DO, it's evil vs evil.. so likely one evil will come out victorious. I'm not really liking that idea.

Mort
02-28-2011, 08:22 PM
Not many people wanted Robb Stark to die in A Song of Ice and Fire, and yet there wasn't some kind of fan uprising over the fact that he did.


Robb Stark DIED!!!!??

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1dnqKGuezo)

Kidding :P

I am fairly certain that Fain will play a big part in killing/sealing the bore, or Fain's evil anyway. Like Nameless said, the fight is a macrocosm of what is happening with Rand's wounds. Together the two evils balance each other out. No way in hell they aren't gonna use that in the large scheme of things.

Not sure Rand is gonna die from that particular thing though, maybe Fain's dagger will suffice to do what is needed. My guess is that with the help of the Shadar Logoth evil, be it the dagger or Fain himself (or both), the two evils are going to fight each other so that no backlash can be made from the DO while safely sealing the Bore, however that is going to be done.

I think Rand is going to live through it though, whether or not he'll be resurrected on the way I'll let time tell :)

Juan
02-28-2011, 08:35 PM
Robb Stark was well done. I was angry about it. But it was well done, so I accepted it.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 08:46 PM
I understand the argument. Something has to be touching the Dark One when it's sealed, you don't want it to be either saidin or saidar, and it's not clear that touching with both would not result in both being tainted. If those things are true (reasonable, though not necessary, I think), then that leaves Fain, Rand channeling the True Power against the Dark One through his link with Moridin (if this is possible), and Rand somehow being the buffer himself. Not much else. :(

kivo
02-28-2011, 10:30 PM
In the little version of A Memory of Light that exists inside of my head right now, Rand dies on the slopes of Shayol Ghul having failed to kill the Dark One. His body is recovered by Tam, who is assisted by Galad and Gawyn each wearing Seanchan ter'angreal rings and kicking shadowspawn arse. There is great mourning. The pattern begins to crumble away, but all the humans and creatures fight on led by Perrin and Mat. Someone finally brings the recovered Horn of Valere to Mat and he blows it. The mists descend and the army of Heroes joins the fight. In the darkest distance, a bright light appears. It grows larger, blinding as it approaches. It is the Dragon made of Light, the image on the banner, the parts of reality that have been broken in the fight reform as it flies over them. The forces of light are re-energized and drive back the Shadow. The Dragon soars into the Pit of Doom and covers the bore with its Light, sealing it as soundly as though the Creator did it himself, covering it like the glow covered the black thorns Nynaeve saw in Rand's mind. The forces of Light defeat the last of the Shadow and the Blight is gone, leaving the beauty of Paaren Disen for all to behold. The mists are still there, though fading and the Heroes start to go back. As they return to T'A'R one Hero emerges. Rand. He says his goodbyes to everyone but takes Elayne, Aviendha and Min with him into T'A'R for a while. They are gone for a time that seems imperceptibly small to the others but felt like an entirety to them. Avi and Min are knocked up. The Wheel of Time continues to turn. The Dragon awaits until he is needed again.

Terez
02-28-2011, 10:42 PM
That was pretty much my previous theory on it. I just don't think it flies based on a few separate problems, the aforementioned building of hope being only one problem. The other problems arise from the prophecies.

Now I'm thinking that the Horn-blowing will be a parallel to the tomb of Jesus. Everyone expects Rand to show up when it's blown, but when he doesn't show up, everyone knows he's still alive.

nameless
03-01-2011, 12:06 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about the theory that Fain will kill the Dark One. One can only wait and see, but it's a pretty strange idea. I wouldn't be satisfied by it - Fain's ridiculous, but my concept of him would put him (at most) as powerful as one of the Forsaken.

In a pure slugfest, sure, but Fain's thing is that everything he touches becomes corrupted in a manner that makes it somehow antithetical to the Shadow. Basically, the Dark One could drop him with one punch, but then his hand would get cancer.

Seth Baker
03-01-2011, 12:25 AM
In the little version of A Memory of Light that exists inside of my head right now, Rand dies on the slopes of Shayol Ghul having failed to kill the Dark One. His body is recovered by Tam, who is assisted by Galad and Gawyn each wearing Seanchan ter'angreal rings and kicking shadowspawn arse. There is great mourning. The pattern begins to crumble away, but all the humans and creatures fight on led by Perrin and Mat. Someone finally brings the recovered Horn of Valere to Mat and he blows it. The mists descend and the army of Heroes joins the fight. In the darkest distance, a bright light appears. It grows larger, blinding as it approaches. It is the Dragon made of Light, the image on the banner, the parts of reality that have been broken in the fight reform as it flies over them. The forces of light are re-energized and drive back the Shadow. The Dragon soars into the Pit of Doom and covers the bore with its Light, sealing it as soundly as though the Creator did it himself, covering it like the glow covered the black thorns Nynaeve saw in Rand's mind. The forces of Light defeat the last of the Shadow and the Blight is gone, leaving the beauty of Paaren Disen for all to behold. The mists are still there, though fading and the Heroes start to go back. As they return to T'A'R one Hero emerges. Rand. He says his goodbyes to everyone but takes Elayne, Aviendha and Min with him into T'A'R for a while. They are gone for a time that seems imperceptibly small to the others but felt like an entirety to them. Avi and Min are knocked up. The Wheel of Time continues to turn. The Dragon awaits until he is needed again.

For me, that's too close to the Creator taking a hand. Instead of the Dragon (as a human being) finding a solution against overwhelming odds, and implementing it by his sacrifice, he just kind of dies, then the Light takes over and magically seals the Bore. It's pure deus ex machina. Now, replace your magic Dragon-beast of the Light with Rand, or have Terez's version where they yank him out of Tel'aran'rhiod after he dies, and it's more agreeable for me.

In a pure slugfest, sure, but Fain's thing is that everything he touches becomes corrupted in a manner that makes it somehow antithetical to the Shadow. Basically, the Dark One could drop him with one punch, but then his hand would get cancer.

Have we seen Fain touched by anything intangible yet? I doubt he could corrupt saidin, saidar, or the True Power. Now, if the Dark One had physical form, sure. Fain's powerful, but I don't see how he can be stronger than his component parts. Mashadar, Mordeth... they're powerful. Scary powerful. But their power is subtle, rotting, not the kind of power that goes toe-to-toe, blade to blade, with the Lord of the Grave. At least, that's the way I've always thought about it. I don't see how you can use that kind of strength to strike a decisive blow.

I'm not sure where his place is, but he seems to be more than the sum of his parts if he can hope to defeat one of the Forsaken, let alone injure the Dark One himself.

nameless
03-02-2011, 12:00 PM
Fain probably can't make contact with anything as intangible as the Source or the True Power, but Rand can, and Fain can touch Rand. Originally I thought he'd just get sealed up in the Bore a la Gollum falling into Mt. Doom, but I'm starting to think there will have to be an element of sacrifice from Rand that isn't really present in Gollum scenario. Maybe Rand will become possessed by the Dark One, or fill himself to bursting with True power, or something else along the lines of the foreshadowing that using Callandor will make him vulnerable to the Dark One's influence. Then Fain could hit him while he's in direct contact with the Dark One and spread the contagion to both of them.

GonzoTheGreat
03-02-2011, 12:06 PM
Have we seen Fain touched by anything intangible yet?When he retrieved his dagger from the Tower, Alviarin caught him in a weave of saidar. Does that count?

maacaroni
03-02-2011, 12:39 PM
I am in the 'rand fakes his death' camp. Just so's you knows.

Bluedust
03-02-2011, 03:56 PM
My loony idea is the Eye of the World is accessible in TAR thanks to the Nym's sacrifice, assuming the area he made wasn't consumed.

We were told the Eye isn't in a specific spot and you need Need to find it and also that it wasn't used for its specific purpose.

What better way then to travel right into the middle of the Blight in TAR that technically doesn't exist there? The Eye of the World indeed, aptly named if so.

Edit: This could be before or after Nyn rips Rand out of TAR and somehow he gets the Shadow-hiding knife. All my opinion of course.

4Alethinos
03-05-2011, 10:47 PM
I have been having this discussion/argument with Callandor and then Terez for some time.

We have a number of foreshadowings about a death of Rand that is not a real death of his soul in the real world. The prophecy of the boat, and those that showed him dead but only like a paper mache figure.

The prophecy was "in order to live you must die." In my little mind, Rand was not asking about a life after death since he is very awere that this is a reincarnation universe. Therefore, it also precludes a stay with the Heroes of the Horn.

I am convinced that Min's prophecy about the two becoming one and one of them dying combined with the prophecy about Aliia helping Rand to die are tied together. The one who dies is Moridin and the one who lives is Rand. The body in the boat with the three wives is indeed Rand's, but Rand will be in Moridin's less damaged body.

I cannot see Rand dying and going to HoTH heaven as any kind of fulfillment.

I will not call Terez's theory the stupidest one I have ever seen. :)

Terez
03-06-2011, 12:30 AM
You're behind the times, 4A. I changed my theory over a year ago. :p

keliara
03-06-2011, 04:51 AM
Dying to preserve the land is the only way he can fulfill his role as Brahma/Dionysus/Christ.


Yes but Christ was risen after 3 days. If Rand were to fulfill that role then he would come back to life also.

4Alethinos
03-07-2011, 10:44 PM
Terez, I do repent me in dust and ashes. I just skimmed your post and made some really bad assumptions.

I do not know just how close you and I are on this issue, but we cannot be too far apart.

You and I were pretty much on the ssme side about the nature of the LTT part of Rand's psyche. I may have had a quibble or two over nomenclature, but we essentially agreed and we seem to be on this issue of the life and death and life of one Dragon Reborn.

"It is good to have friends in low places." You may take first pick on which one I am. hehe

Terez
03-08-2011, 02:07 AM
Oh, I am totally anti-bodyswap, so fear not. We are still opposed. ;)

Jonai
03-08-2011, 02:42 AM
I'm so sick of Fain. Here's hoping he flies out of the shadows, bites off SH's finger and then melts in the Pit of Doom. Ideally you wouldn't want to touch the Source to the DO again but if that were to happen, that doesn't mean it will be Tainted. If it were easy the DO would just have Forsaken channel at him.

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2011, 04:31 AM
Maybe Rand and Fain will swap bodies. Wouldn't that confuse the heck out of everyone? :p

Jonai
03-08-2011, 09:30 AM
Maybe Rand and Fain will swap bodies. Wouldn't that confuse the heck out of everyone? :p

*giggle* I can totally seen rand getting balefired by Moiraine in Fain's body.

4Alethinos
03-12-2011, 10:00 PM
Re: Body swap. What is your understanding of Min's vison, Terez?

As to Fain, I am convinced that he is not Gollum. He cannot be used to heal the Bore. He does not have the capability to restore the spatial coordinates that were shoved aside when the Bore was eased through the Pattern.

No lives woven into the Pattern were disturbed when the Bore was made. The Pattern was shoved aside as to the spatial coordinates that confined the DO's prison. It is that set of relationships that must be replaced/restored.

Does Fain have some immunity to the DO? I am not sure, but I seriously doubt it. He may serve as a useful distraction somewhere along the line, but that is all that I can see right now.

GonzoTheGreat
03-13-2011, 05:23 AM
Fain could become king of Cairhien. He would fit right in.

Terez
03-13-2011, 05:22 PM
Re: Body swap. What is your understanding of Min's vison, Terez?
My understanding of it is that Rand and Moridin are merging, and that Rand will have to die in order to sever the connection between them. He has to do this before the Last Battle to have a chance of winning. They will burn his body, hence the pyre/bier dreams, and the body on the boat is the one that was ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod (by Nynaeve, of course), hence the three women who must save him with the bond as Elayne saved Birgitte.

4Alethinos
03-14-2011, 02:49 PM
Thank you, Terez. It makes sense in that it is a logical set of ideas. I disagree, but you are hardly surprised about that.

It requires that Rand, as a Hero of the Horn, would make himself available for such an action by Nynaeve who only saw Moggy do it to Birgitte.

If Rand follows the rules for Heroes, then he will not make himself available to be ripped out.

You also leave a living Moridin to continue in his plots against the light and I consider this a bad thing and rather unlikely.

I certainly agree that one of them must die. I, of course, pick Moridin.

I do not know why a body swap is so impossible. After all, you are saying that Rand would be able ot survive his being ripped out of TAR. You also do not explain Alivia's part in the death of Rand.

I must admit that it may not have seemed germane to you in my original question. I would like some hint as to what part Alivia is likely to play in Rand's death.

I see Alivia as a vital part in the moving of Rand's soul to Moridin's body. I wonder if the groiwng closeness between Rand and Moridin will bring about the swap and then Alivia will kill Rand's body with Moridin inside. Whee!

I kinow it is not germane, but Lanfear died. Nyaa, nyaa, nyaa, nyaa. :D

Terez
03-14-2011, 05:31 PM
Thank you, Terez. It makes sense in that it is a logical set of ideas. I disagree, but you are hardly surprised about that.

It requires that Rand, as a Hero of the Horn, would make himself available for such an action by Nynaeve who only saw Moggy do it to Birgitte.

If Rand follows the rules for Heroes, then he will not make himself available to be ripped out.
Yes dear, but that's what Need is for. Did you know that the Wise Ones taught Nynaeve to use Need before they taught Egwene? ;)

You also leave a living Moridin to continue in his plots against the light and I consider this a bad thing and rather unlikely.
Only for a short time. Haven't you ever wondered why the last thing Rand heard in all his alternate lives was 'I have won again, Lews Therin.'?

I do not know why a body swap is so impossible.
I never said it was impossible. Just undesirable.

After all, you are saying that Rand would be able ot survive his being ripped out of TAR. You also do not explain Alivia's part in the death of Rand.
It's not necessary to explain Alivia's part - there is no evidence for her supposed part in the bodyswap theory either. In fact, it seems rather left field. There's nothing about her to suggest that she has any skills in this area.

GonzoTheGreat
03-15-2011, 05:15 AM
It's not necessary to explain Alivia's part - there is no evidence for her supposed part in the bodyswap theory either. In fact, it seems rather left field. There's nothing about her to suggest that she has any skills in this area.Now I imagine Alivia riding around (on a horse) with a bumpersticker "my other body is a redhead".

4Alethinos
03-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Thanks, Terez. Your reference to Need is really cool and does buttress your case.

I do not think that Need brought Birgitte to the places where Nynaeve and the others just happened to be while they were in TAR. I base this on the fact that Need must be a conscious act and Birgitte showed up at the prompting of the Pattern and not because the girls were aware that they Needed Birgitte.

I also agree that in what way Alivia is going to help Rand die is not indicated as to just how she is going to do this. However, it is certain that she is going to be a part of whatever happens at the time one of the Two in Min's vision dies.

Your assumptions make a good argument. Mine make it a bad one. I acknowledge this.

Terez
03-15-2011, 01:25 PM
Thanks, Terez. Your reference to Need is really cool and does buttress your case.

I do not think that Need brought Birgitte to the places where Nynaeve and the others just happened to be while they were in TAR. I base this on the fact that Need must be a conscious act and Birgitte showed up at the prompting of the Pattern and not because the girls were aware that they Needed Birgitte.
Indeed, Birgitte broke the precepts. You might say it was ta'veren influence - she talked to Perrin first. I don't think Rand will need to break them.

Since you're playing nice...you should check out the foreshadowing (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_988dx3mgj4k&revision=_latest#4._Rand_will_die_and_be_resurrect ed.). :D

4Alethinos
03-15-2011, 11:26 PM
Terez, I have great respect for your knowledge and intelligence. I also have respect for warm nitrogycerin and treat it accordingly. :D

Thanks for the link. The foreshadowings are very impressive. There is no doubt of that.

phil01
03-16-2011, 07:04 AM
I don't read the book as thoroughly as you guys did but i have been reading about the resurrection link with the bible theory and he will disappear for 3 days after he dies. Their is a lot of references to Rand disappearing for 3 days after his epiphany when dark Rand dies and the old/new Rand returns. Also could the prophesy 3 in aboat he who is dead yet not dead mean that Rand has gone into tel'a'rhinoid to strongly and therefore not much of his soul left in his body if any. Thereis mention of this from the wise ones and hopper keeps telling perrin he is in the wolf dream too strongly and he needs an anchor. Could the three in the boat be his anchor after he has been dragged into the dreamworld. just idle thoughts i thought i would throw out there.

Terez
03-16-2011, 07:11 AM
Well, according to Brandon Rand never goes to Tel'aran'rhiod unless it's in the flesh, which is an entirely different thing than Perrin going there 'too strongly' in his sleep. It's implied Perrin will die if he stays there too strongly, but the consequences of going there in the flesh are far less clear.

phil01
03-16-2011, 07:19 AM
so where does he meet moridin. i thought tht was in tel'a'rhinoid and he wasn't there in the flesh?

Terez
03-16-2011, 07:55 AM
In TGS he appears to visit Moridin's own dream. We're not sure, but Rand observed that it had a different feel from Tel'aran'rhiod, so we know it wasn't that.

phil01
03-17-2011, 04:54 AM
could this not be an option after been pulled into tel'aran'rhiod (spelling is getting closer)

Berelain, to Perrin: "'You slept like a man already dead. [Annoura] said you almost felt like someone who had lost his soul, cold no matter how many blankets were piled on you. I felt it, as well, when I touched you'" [WH: 5, Flags, 145].

Could be how the body swap thing happens (not that i like these theories) that Rands soul get completely pulled in Perrin helps him with his super wolf dream knowledge to pull in Moridins Soul and rand defeats him in dreamworld slips back into Moridins vacant fully functioning body. Rands body is left a vacant shell for logain to step over to gain his glory. (i'm now thinking as i write so sorry if it's a bit hard to follow.)

The Unreasoner
03-18-2011, 08:20 PM
Given some of the truths (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5302) that I maintain, I don't think Rand will have any need to be resurrected. I think this will be the final victory of the Light, and that Rand will indeed "slay" the Dark One. The role of the Dragon is that of the champion of the Light, and the Wheel will see no need to spin him out again lacking an adversary (Shai'tan, I think, means quite literally "God's adversary" in Arabic). He will leave the "circles of the world", taking Aviendha, Elayne, and Min with him (Perhaps on a figurative "boat", seen in various prophecies, and reminiscent of Frodo's departure at the Grey Havens in LotR). He will die at Shayol Ghul, be recalled somehow (likely by the Horn of Valere), finish the job, do the deed with Aviendha, then return to Tel'aran'rhiod. Perhaps explains some of the unusual aspects of Aviendha's children, their channeling seems almost like some sort of dreamwalking in the real world, imposing their will and channeling simultaneously (gateways forming as soon as thought). Once Aviendha, Elayne, and Min have finished their worldly obligations, they enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, and somehow "depart". It certainly explains some peculiar items from the hypothetical Aiel future, the least of which not being Elayne and Aviendha missing relatively soon after Tarmon Gai'don. Also provides a rationale for the Dragon's Peace, if Rand is to permanently leave the world without its champion, he will certainly want to be confident that no champion will be needed.

4Alethinos
03-28-2011, 12:28 AM
Interesting choice of sigs. I will not state the obvious about your theory and the connection.

First, every book begins with a reverence to the WoT and its continual recycling.

Second, you cannot kill a god as the DO is unless you are more powerful than god.

Third, reincarnation, the cyclical nature of the Wheel, and RJ's many comments about the cyclical nature of his universe is only subject to termination if the DO wins.

Apart from these major issues your argument has no merit. Welcome to the the boards. :)

GonzoTheGreat
03-28-2011, 03:52 AM
Second, you cannot kill a god as the DO is unless you are more powerful than god.A knife in the back beats a Hammer Of Doom which doesn't hit you.
Assuming, of course, that the knife is long enough to reach a vital organ. If not, you're in some trouble.

But being more powerful is not necessary in order to kill an opponent. All that is needed is getting in the first killing blow.

Daekyras
03-28-2011, 08:24 AM
could this not be an option after been pulled into tel'aran'rhiod (spelling is getting closer)

Could be how the body swap thing happens (not that i like these theories) that Rands soul get completely pulled in Perrin helps him with his super wolf dream knowledge to pull in Moridins Soul and rand defeats him in dreamworld slips back into Moridins vacant fully functioning body. Rands body is left a vacant shell for logain to step over to gain his glory. (i'm now thinking as i write so sorry if it's a bit hard to follow.)

It's not hard to follow phil. I just don't like it:rolleyes:

I would be severely annoyed if Rand was to "win the whole damn thing" in T'A'R. That is the place for Egwene and Perrin and I would see it as almost a Deux ex machina situation at this point.

Character A " what do I do?"

Character B " Bring them to the world of dreams. That'll do the trick"

Character A: "Great Idea. Even though i only have a rudimentary knowledge of the place I will surely win"

IamChosen
03-30-2011, 03:24 PM
A recent hint for the body-swap came from ToM chapter 49.

One of Rand and Aviendha's sons, Alarch, has dark hair and his looks come from his wetlander side. I figure that Rand will have natural dark hair sometime in the future... :)

Add that to Min's viewing of something strange about Aviendha's children (which I always thought it was because they were conceived post body-swap).

Of course, the thing about foreshadowing is that everything else is a red herring. :p

phil01
03-30-2011, 06:45 PM
I'm not sure if you got what i was saying. If Moriden pulled him in (not Rands choice) then Moriden certainly has more than a reudimentary knowledge of TAR.

Ranger Rob
04-02-2011, 12:01 AM
RAND WILL LIVE ITS A MATTER OF COMPLETE SEALING OF THE PRISON THE VISION MIN HAD OF THREE STANDING ABOVE A FUNEREAL SCENE i THINK IT WILL BE AV, EW, @ NY, LINKED WITH CALONDOR. And on a side note Logain is about to kill Taim 'i dont care whats said I still say hes demandred only the forsaken in the books have said so called aeil taim said it in LOC and he learns to quick.

Juan
04-02-2011, 01:06 AM
Except that Robert Jordan himself said Taim was not Demandred...

cindy
04-02-2011, 01:42 PM
Except that Robert Jordan himself said Taim was not Demandred...

he also said he'd finish this story in 3 books.

i don't know if i can accept him as a reliable source. :)

Res_Ipsa
04-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Demandred is either Roedran or a character on the level of who killed Asmodean for longshots and even now some still scratch their heads at Graendal.

I am thinking that Taim is Roedran (either impersonating or puppeteer) in a very Sopranos ending kind of way. The sheer anticlimactic nature of it will in itself be worth it when it when he is revealed and we have all the missing parts.