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phil01
02-25-2011, 06:01 AM
i was just reading some theories about androl and his apparent lack of power but wordly knowledge and gifts with making gateways and a thought struck me so thought i would see what perople thought. what if asmodean is not dead but has been transported to the black tower by death (moridin)and his apparent lack of power is due to a slowly dissipating block put on him. why they would keep him around i am not sure but just thought i would thow it out there

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 06:25 AM
It makes me wonder a bit why no one would have told Androl about this, but apart from that it seems a reasonable theory.

Enigma
02-25-2011, 06:26 AM
I suspect that Androl is exactly who he seems to be. We have seen a female version of a channeler who is relativly weak but with a tallent in one area that allows her to do things with certain weaves she should not have the strenght to do.

I don't recall her name but she was one of the Kin who shielded Nynaeve and despite being much weaker that Nynaeve was able to keep her shielded. If I recall correctly the shield bent and warped well past the point that it shoudl have shattered but it still stayed in place.

As far as being knowledgable if the man did not stay in place and instead travelled around he would have seen some of the world. It would be unusual for someone to switch career so often as in past times a job was for life but again its not impossible. Perhaps the pattern moved him around so that the right man with the right skills would be in the right place ie the Black Tower to overcome the dreamspike.

finnssss
02-25-2011, 09:13 AM
I believe Androl is a wilder that had a block and has actually been channeling for a very long time, possibly unknowingly and is much, much older than he appears.

Heinz
02-25-2011, 10:33 AM
It would be a neat idea. I was actually a little sad that Asmodean died. It would have been interesting, I think, to have a Forsaken turned back for the series. But, its Jordan's tale of course, and that fit with his story. (Some think one will turn in the Last Battle.)

I don't think this would be Asmodean returned, however. We did not get any indication that the Great Lord had any intention of bringing Asmodean back (if he even could? I seem to recall among the many 'who killed Asmo' threads that it was also mentioned he died in such a way to be impossible to bring back). And on top of that, we did not get any indication from Anrol's POV that he was anyone except Androl.

Terez
02-25-2011, 10:35 AM
I seem to recall among the many 'who killed Asmo' threads that it was also mentioned he died in such a way to be impossible to bring back.
Indeed.

Juan
02-25-2011, 12:44 PM
Yes, I don't remember the full quote, but was it from the way and place he died that he couldn't be brought back by the DO? Meaning someone other than DO could somehow bring him back? Or is he beyond absolutely anyone's grasp? I'm a bit busy so I don't have time to go look up the quote.

cindy
02-25-2011, 01:38 PM
i think it's from RJ saying to a fan or something of the like that asmodean was toast and wasn't coming back ever, which is too bad cause he was one of the series' best characters imo. i would look for the quote for you, but there are others who are far more qualified and who have probably posted it while i was typing this anyway.

Heinz
02-25-2011, 01:50 PM
...and who have probably posted it while i was typing this anyway.

Sadly, people aren't posting that fast. I say sadly because I'm exceedingly bored at work today, and I keep hitting refresh hoping for more posts.

Terez
02-25-2011, 02:20 PM
I know right? I have been posting at Dragonmount of all places to relieve the boredom.

cindy
02-25-2011, 03:35 PM
I know right? I have been posting at Dragonmount of all places to relieve the boredom.

maybe you could try an engineer's guide to cats. or evilmadscientist . com. (i don't remember what the policy on links is here, sorry). they're both very entertaining, and they don't make anybody sad. :)

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 03:46 PM
i think it's from RJ saying to a fan or something of the like that asmodean was toast and wasn't coming back ever, which is too bad cause he was one of the series' best characters imo. i would look for the quote for you, but there are others who are far more qualified and who have probably posted it while i was typing this anyway.Jedi hand wave: "This is not the quote you are looking for:"
Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?

Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!

There's also the following:I: Can you eliminate anyone from the list of suspects in Asmodean's murder?
RJ: No. I like to see you wondering. It should be obvious to anyone.
I: Not even a single one?
RJ (After some thinking): Rand. Apart from him, I will not clear any other suspects. Not even Bela.While this does not explicitly say that Asmodean is dead, it does show that RJ considers him a murder victim, which is (almost) good enough.

Juan
02-25-2011, 03:46 PM
Or you could take up a hobby. Like balloon art.

Heinz
02-25-2011, 03:48 PM
There was one about the circumstances of Asmo's death too, iirc. Not just that he was murdered, but how and where meant he was not coming back.

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 03:54 PM
That's this quote, I think:
WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?
RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.

Heinz
02-25-2011, 03:55 PM
You beat me to it! *shakes fist, clears his copy clipboard*

cindy
02-25-2011, 04:17 PM
Jedi hand wave: "This is not the quote you are looking for:"



so brandon got the quote wrong? egad!

Brandon: ... Oh, I can tell you one thing that was squashed. To be perfectly honest, I’d always secretly suspected that Asmodean was still around, and that was totally squashed. So there you go. Part of me always thought, “Oh, Robert Jordan isn’t telling us because Asmodean is around; he’s doing something,” but no, he’s just dead. He’s totally dead. But you know, I think Robert Jordan had even confirmed that and I hadn’t seen the interviews until after I started working on the series. I’m pretty sure that somewhere out there is a Robert Jordan confirmation, a “He’s toast” comment.

cindy
02-25-2011, 04:36 PM
ah, no, he's referencing your sammael quote, i see my stupidity now. sorry.

Spasmodean
02-25-2011, 05:30 PM
Androl was referenced a lot earlier than ToM.

One of the Asha'man, can't remember which one remarks on Androl after Rand asks him to make a gateway.

Juan
02-25-2011, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the quote Gonzo. So yes, my point was that because of how and where Asmodean died, the DO couldn't bring him back.. but perhaps someone else could. Granted, I think Androl is definitely not Asmodean, because he's not a darkfriend.

Terez
02-25-2011, 09:57 PM
maybe you could try an engineer's guide to cats. or evilmadscientist . com. (i don't remember what the policy on links is here, sorry). they're both very entertaining, and they don't make anybody sad. :)
We are okay with links so long as they are not spammy. Also, I have a feeling that me posting at DM makes DMers more sad than it does me. Except for Finnssss, who loves me so much that he decided to come play over here too.

Frenzy
02-26-2011, 12:07 AM
I don't recall her name but she was one of the Kin who shielded Nynaeve and despite being much weaker that Nynaeve was able to keep her shielded. If I recall correctly the shield bent and warped well past the point that it shoudl have shattered but it still stayed in place.
Berowin

greatwolf
03-08-2011, 01:19 AM
Thanks for the quote Gonzo. So yes, my point was that because of how and where Asmodean died, the DO couldn't bring him back.. but perhaps someone else could. Granted, I think Androl is definitely not Asmodean, because he's not a darkfriend.


Maybe the idea has some merit though i'll need to reread the androl bits and see. I always thought RJ meant that asmo couldn't come back because he was no longer committed to the shadow. Or maybe it was the loss of the black cords that prevented the DO from bringing him back.


Its possible androl has had some compulsion placed on him though. Just not the most likely alternative.

I suspect that Androl is exactly who he seems to be. We have seen a female version of a channeler who is relativly weak but with a tallent in one area that allows her to do things with certain weaves she should not have the strenght to do

The problem is that androl's ability breaks a lot of rules. First, you have to be of a certain strength to be able to make a gateway. And RJ further implied that great distances required more strength to make the gateways (interplanetary hops) so the best gateway that androl could make may not take him more than a few centimetres if that.

Also, gateways are used to determine strength. And we haven't seen anything from the forsaken or LT to contradict this. So this Talent seems to be a very new one.

That creates enough suspicion. Enough for theories to abound anyway.

GonzoTheGreat
03-08-2011, 04:27 AM
On the other hand, we also have, right from the beginning of the series, the belief that Traveling requires a Talent. That could be a distortion of a memory of Androl-like cases.
The AS knew that Traveling had been possible in the AOL. They knew that some people had possessed a special Talent for it. They knew that no one was capable of doing it anymore. So it was a seemingly obvious step to conclude that the problem was lack of that Talent, rather than lack of knowledge.

I would be interested in learning whether or not Androl was capable of keeping open a gateway that was closing, as Rand did with Aviendha's gateway. According to Asmodean, only a very few people had been able to do that.

And if Asmodean had been capable of making gateways even with his limitation, then he would have taught Rand how to do that. Instead, all Rand could do was Skimming, until he learned how to Travel from Rahvin.

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 09:29 AM
Maybe the idea has some merit though i'll need to reread the androl bits and see. I always thought RJ meant that asmo couldn't come back because he was no longer committed to the shadow. Or maybe it was the loss of the black cords that prevented the DO from bringing him back.

The problem is that androl's ability breaks a lot of rules. First, you have to be of a certain strength to be able to make a gateway. And RJ further implied that great distances required more strength to make the gateways (interplanetary hops) so the best gateway that androl could make may not take him more than a few centimetres if that.

Also, gateways are used to determine strength. And we haven't seen anything from the forsaken or LT to contradict this. So this Talent seems to be a very new one.

That creates enough suspicion. Enough for theories to abound anyway.

A few points.

(1) Those black cords were his connection to the Dark One that protected him from the taint. It didn't change who Asmodean was - someone who was committed to the Dark One. If it caused him to forsake his vows to the Dark One, that was because of his own second guessing, and the fact that Rand made it possible by severing the cords - not because cutting the cords made him less dedicated to the Dark One in and of itself.

(2) It doesn't break rules, it bends them. People have talents in things that they are too weak for by conventional wisdom. Berowhin should not have been able to hold Nynaeve, according to the rules of shielding, but she can, because she has a knack for it. There's no contradiction. I don't see where you have such detailed knowledge of Androl's strength to say with certainty that his maximum distance for a gateway would be a few centimeters.

(3) Where the devil did you get the impression that gateways were used to measure strength? And since when is a lack of proof to the contrary construable as positive proof?

Your entire complaint about this issue is resolvable by acceptance of the fact that individuals identify with different abilities in different ways, such that Egwene is a very poor healer (despite her high strength), Berowhin can shield strong people (despite her low strength), and Androl can make gateways that are larger (proportionate to his strength) than other channelers.

Oneirist
03-08-2011, 10:32 AM
A few points.

(1) Those black cords were his connection to the Dark One that protected him from the taint. It didn't change who Asmodean was - someone who was committed to the Dark One. If it caused him to forsake his vows to the Dark One, that was because of his own second guessing, and the fact that Rand made it possible by severing the cords - not because cutting the cords made him less dedicated to the Dark One in and of itself.

(2) It doesn't break rules, it bends them. People have talents in things that they are too weak for by conventional wisdom. Berowhin should not have been able to hold Nynaeve, according to the rules of shielding, but she can, because she has a knack for it. There's no contradiction. I don't see where you have such detailed knowledge of Androl's strength to say with certainty that his maximum distance for a gateway would be a few centimeters.

(3) Where the devil did you get the impression that gateways were used to measure strength? And since when is a lack of proof to the contrary construable as positive proof?

Your entire complaint about this issue is resolvable by acceptance of the fact that individuals identify with different abilities in different ways, such that Egwene is a very poor healer (despite her high strength), Berowhin can shield strong people (despite her low strength), and Androl can make gateways that are larger (proportionate to his strength) than other channelers.

Taim thought this Talent was impossible.

I'm pretty sure I remember Rand identifying strength with saidin as being relevant with gateway size, that Dashiva could make one almost as big as he can. Asmodean supposedly couldn't teach Rand to Travel with what little power he had. (Though that seems fishy given Sorilea being able to show Cadsuane how it's done despite not having the strength to make it work.) And some of the weaker rebel Aes Sedai had to form links in order to Travel. I recall a number of the Black Ajah without the necessary strength had to try to cut a path through Bryne's soldiers to try to get away from the purge. It's apparently something new.

finnssss
03-08-2011, 10:47 AM
Androl's talent with gateway's is not just limited to how big he can make them realtive to his strength in the power.
Apparently, unlike most others, he doesn't have to "know" the place he is making one from like others do, at least no where near as long.

Evidenced by Flinn's comments from tGS chpt 5...

"I apologize for taking so long to return, Lord Dragon." Flinn had a leathery face and only a few wisps of hair on his head. He looked a lot like some of the farmers Rand had known back in Emond's Field, though he had been a soldier for most of his life. Flinn had come to Rand because he wanted to learn Healing. Rand had turned him into a weapon instead.
"You did as ordered," Rand said, walking back toward the green. He wanted to blame Harine for the prejudices of the entire world, but that was not fair. He needed a better way, a way to make everyone see.
"I've never been exceptional at making gateway's," Flinn continued. "Not like Androl. I needed to--"
"Flinn." Rand said, cutting in. "Enough."

Also, should we discount that both these extreme talents are related to Spirit.
The expanding bubble shield by the kinswoman is all spirit related and traveling is mostly spirit. All spirit for women and Spirit with some Fire for men.
Not conclusive of course but interesting no?


As far as Asmo goes, I dunno but the quickness in which Graendal picks the portal worlds to attempt to flee to at the end of ToM seems to give a pretty good indication of why the "where" part of Asmo's death makes his soul inaccessible to the DO.

My belief/theory is that Androl is just Androl and what he's "hiding" is that he's a Wilder that was channeling without knowing it long before he made his way to the BT and is much older than he appears.

Here's a guy that has traveled Randland extensively, even outside its' shores.
Has no less than 12 apprenticeships.
Served in at least one major army, Tear.
Had at least one instructor of the sword. He refers to him as his first, inferring he's had more than just one.
Then you throw in that he had a full block where he couldn't channel unless he was holding a strap of leather.
Maybe blocks aren't quite 100% exclusive to Wilders but they are much, much more likely.
Nynaeve was channeling unknowingly for close to 9 years before Mo and Lan showed up in the TR.

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 11:11 AM
finnssss, I think that's all reasonable and fair. A strong block would allow him to slow without subjecting him to the taint too quickly.

nameless
03-08-2011, 02:04 PM
And if Asmodean had been capable of making gateways even with his limitation, then he would have taught Rand how to do that. Instead, all Rand could do was Skimming, until he learned how to Travel from Rahvin.

Only if you operate under the assumption that Asmodean wasn't a lying, two-faced weasel. We've seen plenty of other instances with both saidin and saidar when someone can still make a weave they're too weak to use properly. The weave just doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Asmodean's claim that he could not even form the weaves because of his shield was likely a trick to motivate Rand to get the shield removed, or agree to link and pass Asmodean control of the flows.

greatwolf
03-08-2011, 02:29 PM
And might also explain why he hasn't succumbed to the taint? But remember also that Androl can hardly channel. If he has a block on top of that, then he probably couldn't do anything at all.


A very wild possibility that I'm thinking of has to do with the finns. If a channeler is strong enough to make a gateway and visits the finns, he/she may end up with reduced strength but the gateways that he/she makes will be determined by what? His/her current strength or the new reduced strength.

Here am thinking in terms of some wounds. If one loses a hand, there will be nerves and other structures still present as if the hand were still there. Of course if the hand could be reattached precisely and was not yet dead, it conceivably could still function as before.

So maybe, just maybe, androl might once have had the strength for gateways and now with reduced strength, he still makes gateways as if he had his former strength.

Doubt if that made any sense at all.

A few points.

(1) Those black cords were his connection to the Dark One that protected him from the taint.

Could be, i'm a little lazy to read up what RJ said about them now, but you must always read carefully what is said and what is not said.

It doesn't break rules, it bends them...

Your entire complaint about this issue is resolvable by acceptance of the fact that individuals identify with different abilities in different ways, such that Egwene is a very poor healer (despite her high strength), Berowhin can shield strong people (despite her low strength), and Androl can make gateways that are larger (proportionate to his strength) than other channelers.

It isn't a complaint, its a "why?". If Androl can, then Rand should be able to make gateways that are disproportionate too, since he's demonstrated a knack for it. There are so many things we need to understand here.

Spasmodean
03-08-2011, 02:40 PM
Can't believe no-one's said it yet.

Demandrol.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2011, 04:15 AM
It isn't a complaint, its a "why?". If Androl can, then Rand should be able to make gateways that are disproportionate too, since he's demonstrated a knack for it. There are so many things we need to understand here.But Rand is almost certainly running up against the actual limitation on how big a gateway one single man can make. Androl, for all his skill, is nowhere close to that particular limit, so he can benefit from his special skill.