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View Full Version : The Nynaeve's boat debate - dead at last


Terez
02-27-2011, 09:35 PM
RJ confirmed in a letter to a fan way back in 1997 (we just found the report (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=143434#poststop), thanks to sleepinghour) that inanimate objects are also burned back in time by balefire.

7. What the hell is up with balefire (in regards to Nyn and the boat)?

The main issue with this was whether or not balefire burned inanimate objects back through time in addition to living creatures. According to Mr. Jordan, yes it does.

Rand al'Fain
02-27-2011, 10:01 PM
I thought that was made clear when the boat went *twinkle* and Nynaeve was stuck?

Terez
02-27-2011, 11:01 PM
Not sure what you're trying to say. What made it clear to those who argued for what RJ said was the fact that the boat was filled with water on the instant of balefire. Everything else was explained by the rowers being balefired.

maacaroni
02-28-2011, 04:33 AM
doesn't the nynaeve boat incident and the natrin's barrow incident conflict?

Terez
02-28-2011, 06:06 AM
In what way?

1Powerslave
02-28-2011, 07:13 AM
What about Balefire and weaves/flows of the One Power? Does Balefire affect them, and if so, why hasn't the Forsaken balefired the wards in the White Tower and on Rand's ter'angreal caches?

Terez
02-28-2011, 07:29 AM
Why are you asking as if we would all of a sudden know the answer to that question now? But I assume that wards that are designed to trigger at any use of the Power will trigger for balefire just like anything else.

maacaroni
02-28-2011, 08:29 AM
What I mean is that in one incident, a portion of the boat disappears, and in the other, an entire fortress disappears.

If it is a simple matter of power (sa'angreal or otherwise), why would one attack totally eradicate a building only (and nowt else) and the other a chunk of a boat.

It seems conflicted?

Oh crikey, this is going down the WoT metaphysics side...not something I'm normally that fussed about.

1Powerslave
02-28-2011, 08:31 AM
Why are you asking why I'm asking as if we cannot ask a related question now all of a sudden? I am asking now because the thought occurred to me now, so it seemed like a good time.

Probably. Which raises the question. Can balefire at all affect weaves? We do have example of weaves affecting weaves (metaphysically), e.g. slicing of flows, shielding. Though it seems that these wards can ward against physical force as well as spiritual.

1Powerslave
02-28-2011, 08:37 AM
What I mean is that in one incident, a portion of the boat disappears, and in the other, an entire fortress disappears.

If it is a simple matter of power (sa'angreal or otherwise), why would one attack totally eradicate a building only (and nowt else) and the other a chunk of a boat.

It seems conflicted?

Oh crikey, this is going down the WoT metaphysics side...not something I'm normally that fussed about.
Rand probably make the beam of balefire large enough to cover the whole fortress.

GonzoTheGreat
02-28-2011, 08:38 AM
Balefire can effect weaves. We have the very clear example of the Crossing of the Beams, after all. Then there is the case of Rand disrupting Ishamael's balefire in the Heart of the Stone.

However, none of the known examples is close enough to what you are asking to settle it.
Then again, if balefire could have disrupted wards, then Be'lal would have had Callandor somewhere in the start of TDR, and the series would've ended a lot sooner.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Balefire can effect weaves. We have the very clear example of the Crossing of the Beams, after all. Then there is the case of Rand disrupting Ishamael's balefire in the Heart of the Stone.

However, none of the known examples is close enough to what you are asking to settle it.
Then again, if balefire could have disrupted wards, then Be'lal would have had Callandor somewhere in the start of TDR, and the series would've ended a lot sooner.

(A) The balefire did not burn those weaves out of the pattern.

(B) That comparison is inapposite. Moridin's balefire was woven from the True Power. It's not definitive proof of anything when it comes to One Power weaves interacting, given that the True Power behaves differently.

I'd say balefire can't burn One Power weaves out of the Pattern because the One Power isn't part of the Pattern. Saidin and saidar drive the Wheel that spins the Pattern - they're not part of the pattern itself.

Of course, weaves can interact. One can use Spirit to slice other weaves, for instance. But they don't interact with other weaves in the same way that they interact with matter that has a thread in the Pattern, from what we've seen.

Weird Harold
02-28-2011, 01:40 PM
Rand probably make the beam of balefire large enough to cover the whole fortress.
Didn't Brandon say the beam did NOT cover the entire fortress?

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 01:55 PM
Didn't Brandon say the beam did NOT cover the entire fortress?

He did.

Terez
02-28-2011, 02:32 PM
Then yes, there seems to be an inconsistency. The funny thing is that Brandon's description of balefiring the palace seems to support RJ's claim that inanimate objects are temporally affected (there would have to be some sort of object identity for that to make sense, right?) while RJ's balefiring of inanimate objects seems to support Brandon's assumption that only living things are temporally affected.

I dunno. RJ was the physics guy, so maybe I'm just not approaching the idea from the right angle. I'd be interested to hear what the local scientists think about it.

gord
02-28-2011, 03:12 PM
There was also some balefire used in the palace in Tanchico. As I recall some pillars were sliced in half and collapsed in the present, supporting the idea that balefire does not burn inanimate objects back in time.

Terez
02-28-2011, 03:20 PM
Yeah, RJ always described the balefiring of inanimate objects that way, which is what I was getting at.

Weird Harold
02-28-2011, 06:29 PM
I dunno. RJ was the physics guy, so maybe I'm just not approaching the idea from the right angle. I'd be interested to hear what the local scientists think about it.
Given the disparity and confliction of descriptions and explanations, I have to conclude that Balefire resolves temporal paradox in the most narratively satisfying manner. :D

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 07:43 PM
Nah, there has to be a single answer, after all, if you come across something that you think is an inconsistency, you're interpreting the books wrong. :lol:

Weird Harold
03-01-2011, 12:48 AM
The inconsistancies are mostly in the authors' comments -- and in the description of Natrim's Barrows, if the Balefire was indeed smaller than the fortress.

Previous descriptions, in the books, of balefire show balefire punching clean holes in inanimate objects larger than the balefire beam, not the sparkly disintegration shown for living beings like Forskaen and Trollocs.

looqas
03-01-2011, 01:58 AM
Ah, I remembered correctly that we had been speculating about the whole balefire thing (probably for the umphteenth time) in the past http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4026&highlight=balefire

The only conclusion which Harold put it more nicely is that the nature and effect of balefire is what the author makes it to be at that precise moment. It's the one weave closest to Deus Ex Machina in the books ;)

maacaroni
03-01-2011, 04:51 AM
balefire paradoxes make my head hurt.

Do you know what? I am not fussed...it is what it is.

Let's talk about other things instead. That Mat Cauthon...he's a right scallywag, isn't he?

Terez
03-01-2011, 07:47 AM
Let's talk about other things instead.
If you don't like it then feel free to exit thread left.

maacaroni
03-02-2011, 06:27 AM
I'm so conflicted, Terez. Nice thread on Justice by the way...I don't think your proposition is so far-fetched.