PDA

View Full Version : A Third Trip to Rhuidean


Tamyrlin
03-02-2011, 02:44 PM
Ok, I haven't written up my Nakomi theory yet, but I'm going to play with this thought which does lend itself towards my interpretation of who/what/why with Nakomi.

Consider Aviendha deciding to go back to the Columns for a second time. She states that it was "forbidden."

She took a hesitant step away from the glass columns, and nothing happened. No further visions. Disturbed, she began to walk from the plaza. Then she slowed. Hesitantly she turned back. The columns stood in the dimming light, quiet and alone, seeming to buzz with an unseen energy. Was there more?

That one vision seemed so disconnnected from the others she'd seen. If she passed into the columns' midst again, would she repeat what she'd been given before? Or...had she, perhaps, changed something with her Talent?

In the centuries since Rhuidean's founding, those columns had shown the Aiel what they needed to know about themselves. The Aes Sedai had set that up, hadn't they? Or had they simply placed the ter'angreal and allowed it to do what it pleased, knowing it would grant wisdom?

Aviendha listened to the tree's leaves rustle. Those pillars were a challenge, as sure as an enemy warrior with his spear in hand. If she passed into their midst again, she might never come out; nobody visited this ter'angreal a second time. It was forbidden. One trip through the rings, one through the columns. But she had come seeking knowledge. She would not leave with it.

To me, it makes no sense to forbid an act that has zero consequence in regards to Rhuidean and the Ter'angreal. In other words, if nothing would normally happen entering a second time, if they went dead as they did after Aviendha's second time through, then forbidding it in such a way would be nonsensical.

Instead, she was forbidden and I'm starting to think that it is forbidden because the Third Trip is something only certain Wise Ones are supposed to do. Here is how I see it, generally speaking.

The First Trip to Rhuidean - Start the Path of Becoming Wise One
Enter the rings and learn the myriad of ways your future lays out before you

Second Trip to Rhuidean - Become a Wise One
Enter the columns and learn where the Aiel came from and the meaning of all that has come before.

Third Trip to Rhuidean - Guide the Wise Ones
Enter the columns for the second time and learn what awaits the Aiel in the future.

As to how this potentially relates to Nakomi. Her words help Aviendha see that the forbidden is no longer applicable, that the future is now. It was important for her to ignore the forbidden aspect of entering a second time.

And potentially the Wise Ones are awaiting her return to lead them now, at least through the Last Battle, and that is what they've been preparing Aviendha to do.

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 26 - A Crack in the Stone
"But there is rank among Wise Ones," Aviendha said. "Is there not?" "Rank?" Amys looked puzzled. "Some of us have more honor than others, earned by wisdom, actions and experience." Melaine held up a finger. "But it is important—vital, even—that each Wise One be willing to defend her own well. If she believes that she is right, she cannot let herself be shoved aside, even by other Wise Ones, no matter how aged or wise." "No woman is ready to join us until she has declared herself ready," Amys continued. "She must present herself as our equal."

There is that brief discussion on rank, but interesting to note what Melaine advised, 'if she believes she is right, she cannot let herself be shoved aside."

The reason I say this is something the Wise Ones have been preparing for and preparing her for comes in many quotes, but this one most of all is telling.

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 26 - A Crack in the Stone
"You have no reason for shame," Amys said. "That burden is upon us. Despite Bair's joking, you did well. Some women spend months and months being punished before deciding that they have had enough. We had to be hard on you, child—harder than I've ever seen a ready apprentice treated. There is just so little time!" "I understand," Aviendha said. "And... thank you." Amys snorted. "You forced us to be very creative. Remember this time you spent and the shame you felt, for it is the shame any da'tsang will know, should you consign them to their fate. And they cannot escape it simply by demanding release."

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 26 - A Crack in the Stone
Aviendha nodded. "The battle comes." "Yes. Return quickly once you pass through the pillars. We will need to discuss how to best handle the Car'a'carn. He has... changed since last night."

Why would they need or care about Aviendha's opinion regarding how to handle Rand if not for the fact that they know of what Aviendha will see and the part she plays in the future of the Aiel?

At least, those are some thoughts I had this morning.

Oh, and hello newbies, welcome to Theoryland. I haven't had a ton of time over the last two months to participate, but this does happen to be a few of my favorite topics all wrapped into one.

Heinz
03-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Might this tie into with why the Wise Ones were pushing Aviendha on Rand in the first place, by ordering her to 'teach Rand al'Thor our ways' in tSR and tFOH? After all, why Aviendha? She herself may have seen Rand in her possible futures, but did the Wise Ones know that, or is your theory here related to why they pushed Aviendha in that direction?

I am not certain myself, I'll be curious to watch the discussion. But that was the first question that occurred to me reading your thought.

Tamyrlin
03-02-2011, 04:47 PM
That the Wise Ones have been reading the future and knew of Aviendha's importance and that is why they were so intent on her coming back to Rhuidean. Going back and reading those books it is clear they take a particular interest in Aviendha for more than her strength in the OP. They knew she was important to the future of the Aiel, I'm quite sure of that. However, Aviendha's trip adds a wrinkle since now it gives reason to their concern beyond just prophecies of a remnant.

Have any other Aiel entered the Columns twice? If they had, would they have seen the future (or possible futures) of the Aiel? Have Amys, Melaine, Bair, etc. been through the Columns a second time? Have they just seen that it would happen, or what would happen through their Dreamwalking?

I'm suggesting that they might be more aware of what Aviendha saw her second time through than we've been told and that such knowledge of the future has motivated them as to how they have trained Aviendha and their interactions with Aviendha as far as preparing her for her part in the Last Battle and how that will affect the future.

Weird Harold
03-02-2011, 05:44 PM
The First Trip ...
Enter the rings ...

Second Trip ...
Enter the columns ...

Third Trip ...
Enter the columns for the second time ...

Why would a third trip break the pattern of using a different ter'angreal for each different purpose?

A third trip to Rhuidean is/was forbidden because ANY trip to Rhuidean other than for testing -- once for clan chiefs and twice for wise ones -- was forbidden before Rand brought down the mist-barrier and water back to the city.

The Wise Ones use Dreaming and Dreamwalking to foresee the future, what need do they have of a ter'angreal that can only be used once to foretell the future of the Aiel. It is much easier to guide the Aiel to the most desireable future if you can check your progress occasionally, but they haven't ever sent anyone on a third trip -- second trip through the columns -- that we know of.

Gaidal Cain
03-02-2011, 07:57 PM
Although it is a slightly different purpose, I think it's pretty coherent using the same ter'angreal to see both the past and the future of one's bloodline.

Especially considering the cyclic aspect of time in the WOT. However one can change his future by different choices, it is kinda as written as the past already is.

And that could answer your second issue. While foretelling gives them (sometimes cryptic) possibilities, the collumns would give a sure view of the future as things are.

Tamyrlin
03-02-2011, 08:45 PM
A third trip to Rhuidean is/was forbidden because ANY trip to Rhuidean other than for testing -- once for clan chiefs and twice for wise ones -- was forbidden before Rand brought down the mist-barrier and water back to the city.

Aviendha considers this prohibition when she walks back to the Columns while there, not in returning to Rhuidean.

Your explanation does not address the obvious nature of entering the Columns a second time while in Rhuidean for the testing to become a Wise One. Why would they specifically prohibit entering the columns twice? It makes absolutely not sense to even mention it and to create a prohibition, if nothing happens, or if you merely repeat what you saw the first time.

Res_Ipsa
03-03-2011, 01:10 AM
Aviendha considers this prohibition when she walks back to the Columns while there, not in returning to Rhuidean.

Your explanation does not address the obvious nature of entering the Columns a second time while in Rhuidean for the testing to become a Wise One. Why would they specifically prohibit entering the columns twice? It makes absolutely not sense to even mention it and to create a prohibition, if nothing happens, or if you merely repeat what you saw the first time.

Well why did/do the wise ones consider entering the world of dreams in the flesh evil? I agree with your idea in principle but would find an argument against them, knowing of a third trip due to their strict sense of honor as well as adherence to ancient ideas/traditions compelling.

Weird Harold
03-03-2011, 02:27 AM
Aviendha considers this prohibition when she walks back to the Columns while there, not in returning to Rhuidean.

Could you quote that passage for me. I don't have access to any copy of ToM yet and don't recall her exact thoughts.

Weird Harold
03-03-2011, 02:39 AM
Although it is a slightly different purpose, I think it's pretty coherent using the same ter'angreal to see both the past and the future of one's bloodline.

The Columns do more than show the past, they approve and mark the candidates they test.

However, the main point there is that the first trip uses one ter'angreal, the second trip uses a second ter'angreal a hypothetical third trip, once used but now prohibited for some reason, uses ???

Big Bird would be disappointed in any child who shouted "go back through the second ter'angreal" when given that pattern to solve. :rolleyes:

And that could answer your second issue. While foretelling gives them (sometimes cryptic) possibilities, the collumns would give a sure view of the future as things are.

Foretelling, if they happen to have a Wise One with the talent is more certain view of things to come.

The view of the future Aviendha saw in the Columns is anything but certain -- it bears a lot of similarities to the alternate lives shown in the long portal stone transit to Falme; a long, nightmare ridden transit engineered and possibly guided by Verin Sedai of the Black Ajah.

Davian93
03-03-2011, 06:53 AM
That the Wise Ones have been reading the future and knew of Aviendha's importance and that is why they were so intent on her coming back to Rhuidean. Going back and reading those books it is clear they take a particular interest in Aviendha for more than her strength in the OP. They knew she was important to the future of the Aiel, I'm quite sure of that. However, Aviendha's trip adds a wrinkle since now it gives reason to their concern beyond just prophecies of a remnant.

Have any other Aiel entered the Columns twice? If they had, would they have seen the future (or possible futures) of the Aiel? Have Amys, Melaine, Bair, etc. been through the Columns a second time? Have they just seen that it would happen, or what would happen through their Dreamwalking?

I'm suggesting that they might be more aware of what Aviendha saw her second time through than we've been told and that such knowledge of the future has motivated them as to how they have trained Aviendha and their interactions with Aviendha as far as preparing her for her part in the Last Battle and how that will affect the future.

Dreaming offers a way out of that without having to have them go through a 2nd time themselves. Its very possible that they simply all had Dreams about her importance and the Columns.

Gaidal Cain
03-03-2011, 07:30 AM
The Columns do more than show the past, they approve and mark the candidates they test.

However, the main point there is that the first trip uses one ter'angreal, the second trip uses a second ter'angreal a hypothetical third trip, once used but now prohibited for some reason, uses ???

Big Bird would be disappointed in any child who shouted "go back through the second ter'angreal" when given that pattern to solve. :rolleyes:



Foretelling, if they happen to have a Wise One with the talent is more certain view of things to come.

The view of the future Aviendha saw in the Columns is anything but certain -- it bears a lot of similarities to the alternate lives shown in the long portal stone transit to Falme; a long, nightmare ridden transit engineered and possibly guided by Verin Sedai of the Black Ajah.

There's only a pattern here if you say there is. I could as well shout "go back to the first ter'angreal" and it would satisfy a pattern. But only because you're assuming there is one. ;)

And about the Foretelling you are of course correct. I wrongly said Foretelling when I meant Dreaming. Dreaming gives possible futures, and although I don't have access to the books right now, Wot wikia agrees with me :
http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Dreaming

Tamyrlin
03-03-2011, 09:49 AM
She took a hesitant step away from the glass columns, and nothing happened. No further visions. Disturbed, she began to walk from the plaza. Then she slowed. Hesitantly she turned back. The columns stood in the dimming light, quiet and alone, seeming to buzz with an unseen energy. Was there more?

That one vision seemed so disconnnected from the others she'd seen. If she passed into the columns' midst again, would she repeat what she'd been given before? Or...had she, perhaps, changed something with her Talent?

In the centuries since Rhuidean's founding, those columns had shown the Aiel what they needed to know about themselves. The Aes Sedai had set that up, hadn't they? Or had they simply placed the ter'angreal and allowed it to do what it pleased, knowing it would grant wisdom?

Aviendha listened to the tree's leaves rustle. Those pillars were a challenge, as sure as an enemy warrior with his spear in hand. If she passed into their midst again, she might never come out; nobody visited this ter'angreal a second time. It was forbidden. One trip through the rings, one through the columns. But she had come seeking knowledge. She would not leave with it.


A second pass through this ter'angreal was forbidden. If an individual merely repeated the same trip, such a prohibition would be meaningless.

Tamyrlin
03-03-2011, 09:51 AM
Dreaming offers a way out of that without having to have them go through a 2nd time themselves. Its very possible that they simply all had Dreams about her importance and the Columns.

Dreaming and Dreamwalking could have provided them plenty of information. In fact, through their Dreamwalking they could have seen what she saw. But I think, considering that entering a second time was forbidden, that this is worth asking Brandon.

Heinz
03-03-2011, 10:45 AM
If the Wise One's Dreaming of the future is anything like what we read about with Egwene, and I'm assuming it is, then their Dreaming can be pretty ambiguous if they don't know in that Dreamer sort of way.

If it is commonplace for the columns to give a second trip, this time into the future, via bloodline then it would give a more universally understadable view of the future than Dreaming often does. What I mean by that is, the view of the future lives is laid out as one might see or hear it. Rather than viewing things in symbols and metaphors like a complex game of sharades, where you may or may not know the context of what you are being shown.

And with how dangerous some believe knowledge of the future to be (such as with how the Wise Ones behave with Moiraine when she first comes to Rhuidean), I could see the Wise Ones forbidding all the young, new Wise Ones-to-be from going through a second time. That may be reserved for an 'inner circle' of sorts, when they are sure a Wise One has gained wisdom enough to handle a view of the future.

Add on top of that, that it may be very much like the portal stones where it is only a view of a possible future, and they may not want too many acting out their lives as if they know something will happen (like Elayne has been prone to do).

My original assumption about the Wise One's pushing Aviendha toward Rand in tSR and tFoH was always that it was Dreaming. And it may still very well be. But I also think Tamyrlin's point about 'why forbid it if it normally wouldn't do anything, and it was special only for Aviendha this trip?' is a good one.

FelixPax
03-03-2011, 11:29 AM
Dreaming offers a way out of that without having to have them go through a 2nd time themselves. Its very possible that they simply all had Dreams about her importance and the Columns.

I recall Aviendha once told Amys about one of Min visions relating to Rand al'Thor. Hence Amys knew that Aviendha's role was absolutely important to the Aiel Peoples future.

Heinz
03-03-2011, 12:05 PM
I recall Aviendha once told Amys about one of Min visions relating to Rand al'Thor. Hence Amys knew that Aviendha's role was absolutely important to the Aiel Peoples future.

Have a quote? I can't remember it, but I don't claim to remember all that's been said of course.

1Powerslave
03-03-2011, 07:19 PM
I thought their haste to get Aviendha to become a Wise One only had to do with their original plan for her. She is close to the Car'a'carn, her word means more to him than any other Wise One. Even though I do recall some Wise One saying Rand didn't react to a pretty girl like most men, I believe that they are still trying for Aviendha influencing the Car'a'carn here. She can make him care about the Aiel. The second trip through the columns ter'angreal had the feel of it being done for the first time, I don't think the Wise Ones knew about it.

Weird Harold
03-03-2011, 09:37 PM
There's only a pattern here if you say there is.

Aviendha sees a pattern of "one trip per ter'angreal," too.

Dreaming gives possible futures, ...

Dreamwalking is the Wises one's primary forseeing tool. It can be used as often as the dreamwalker has stamina for.

Egwene, our primary source for information on Dreaming and Dreamwalking, is woefully undertrained in Dreamwalking, although she has good control of T'A'R there is more to Dreamwalking than proficiency in controlling T'A'R. The Wise Ones speak of seeing multiple options and outcomes, but Egwene has never demonstrated that capability for us.

A second pass through this ter'angreal was forbidden. If an individual merely repeated the same trip, such a prohibition would be meaningless.

Thanks for the quote.

Aviendha seems to be simply restating the past policy -- one trip per ter-angreal and no sight-seeing or experimenting; just get in, go through the ter'angreal, and get out.

IIRC, there was a strong suggestion that exploring and experimenting were forbidden when Rand, and Aviendha were given their instructions.

One thing to consider: Nobody really knows why some women (or men) fail to return from Rhuidean. It is assumed that they failed to come out of the ter'angreal, but all anyone knows for sure is that some people go into Rhuidean and never come out; a prohibition against re-rides would reduce the risk of not returning.

If the Wise One's Dreaming of the future is anything like what we read about with Egwene, and I'm assuming it is, then their Dreaming can be pretty ambiguous if they don't know in that Dreamer sort of way.

The Wise Ones have a lot more experience interpreting the kind of "Significant Dreams" we've seen from Egwene, but the multiple choice futures they see are derived from Dreamwalking rather than Dreaming. Egwene left before she learned that advanced Dreamwalking trick.


If it is commonplace for the columns to give a second trip, ...

It isn't commonplace. As far as we know, Aviendha is the only person to try a second trip since the columns were first constructed.

... this time into the future, via bloodline then it would give a more universally understandable view of the future ...

Understandable, yes. Immutable, probably not. The future(s) Aviendha saw seem highly unlikely, to me, starting with Rand exempting the Aiel from the "Dragon's Peace."

... it may be very much like the portal stones where it is only a view of a possible future, and they may not want too many acting out their lives as if they know something will happen (like Elayne has been prone to do).

They have no qualms about sending apprentice candidates through the rings that show "all possible futures" with the knowledge that some of those futures and how to bring them about and/or prevent them will be remembered.

Moiriane remembered and acted upon her pre-knowledge to neutralize Lanfear, and Aviendha has commented a couple of times on what she remembers from her trip through the rings.

Wantanswers
03-08-2011, 02:06 PM
Understandable, yes. Immutable, probably not. The future(s) Aviendha saw seem highly unlikely, to me, starting with Rand exempting the Aiel from the "Dragon's Peace."

Rand is the Dragon and the car'a'carn. The Aiel are the "People of the Dragon". As such they are a part of the "Dragon's Peace".

Weird Harold
03-08-2011, 03:47 PM
Rand is the Dragon and the car'a'carn. The Aiel are the "People of the Dragon". As such they are a part of the "Dragon's Peace".
Yet in Aviendha's second trip through glass columns ter'angreal, the fact that the Aiel were NOT included is explicitly stated.

Wantanswers
03-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Yet in Aviendha's second trip through glass columns ter'angreal, the fact that the Aiel were NOT included is explicitly stated.
Aviendha saw a possible future of the Aiel. That future will only happen, if the Aiel fail the Aes Sedai again. At this moment Rand is the only Aes Sedai.

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 07:55 PM
Aviendha saw a possible future of the Aiel. That future will only happen, if the Aiel fail the Aes Sedai again. At this moment Rand is the only Aes Sedai.

Except for... the Aes Sedai.

FelixPax
03-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Have a quote? I can't remember it, but I don't claim to remember all that's been said of course.


Aviendha tells Amys about her future children from the Car'a'carn:


"You would marry him?" Amys asked.

I thought we weren't talking about Aviendha the "silly girl," Aviendha thought, but of course didn't say it. One did not say such things to Amys.

"I will marry him," she said instead. "It is not a possibility, but a certainty." The tone earned her a glance from Amys, but Aviendha held her ground. Any Wise One who misspoke deserved to be corrected.

"And the wetlander Min Farshaw?" Amys asked. "She obviously loves him. What will you do about her?"

"She is my concern," Aviendha said. "We will reach an accommodation. I have spoken with Min Farshaw, and I believe she will be easy to work with."

"You would become first-sisters with her as well?" Amys asked, sounding just faintly amused.

"We will reach an accommodation, Wise One."

"And if you cannot?"

"We will," Aviendha said firmly.

"And how can you be so certain?"

Aviendha hesitated. Part of her wished to return only silence to that question, passing the leafless brush thickets and giving Amys no answer. But she was just an apprentice, and while she could not be forced to speak, she knew that Amys would keep pushing until the answer came out. Aviendha hoped she would not incur too much toh by her response.

"You know of the woman Min's viewing?" Aviendha

Amys nodded.

"One of those viewing relates to Rand al'Thor and the three women he will love. Another relates to my children by the Car'a'carn."


The Gathering Storm, Chapter "The Ways of Honor" -- Aviendha point of view; with Amys


Of course, I doubt Aviendha will have only Rand al'Thor children, as she currently suspects (TGS, ToM books).




Who's the daddie(s) of Aviendha's Four Babies?


Rand al'Thor... and his First-Brother Mat Cauthon each are to be the fathers of Aviendha's four children born at once. Yes, that right.

Jordan is a very subtle kinky writer, regarding sex & romance.



Min Vision claims:

Aviendha would have Rand's babies, too. Four of them at once! Something was odd about that, though. The babies would be healthy, but still something odd.

Winter's Heart Chapter 12 - eWoT entry


Is there a hint elsewhere suggesting this unique family is factually possible?

Yes, in Towers of Midnight book.

Padra bowed her head at the honor he showed her. She sat between Alarch and Janduin, her brothers. Though the four siblings were quadruplets, they looked very dissimilar. Alarch took more after their wetlander side, and had dark hair. Janduin was blond and tall. Beside him sat Marinna, their sister, small of build with a round face.


Towers of Midnight, Chapter 48 "Court of the Sun" -- Aviendha point of view

Of the quadruplets, two by genetics are Rand al'Thor's line, and two are Mat Cauthon's line. Each is the father of one male, one female and Aviendha is all four children's mother.



Rand al'Thor children are Padra (female), Janduin (male)
Mat Cauthon children are Marinna (female), Alarch (male)



Chuckles, yes Aviendha likely had one heck of a night swinging with her two husbands... always time for romance... as Perrin and Faile found time for, in ToM book too.


Parallel: The House of Matherin has servants will dark hair and eyes, identitical to Mat Cauthon very own too.

The girl looked back over one shoulder, trembling, and if her eyes had been wide before, they bulged now. Her hands remained clamped to mouth as if to prevent another scream. Dark-haired and dark-eyed, tall and plump-bosomed in House Matherin’s gray-and-blue livery, she was not really a girl—Elsie might be four or five years older than herself—but the way she behaved made it difficult to think of her any other way.


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 10 "A Blazing Beacon" -- Elayne point of view; with Aviendha at the House of Matherin

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 08:24 PM
I think Faile's going to be the other father, not Mat.

ShadowbaneX
03-08-2011, 10:22 PM
Aviendha considers this prohibition when she walks back to the Columns while there, not in returning to Rhuidean.

Your explanation does not address the obvious nature of entering the Columns a second time while in Rhuidean for the testing to become a Wise One. Why would they specifically prohibit entering the columns twice? It makes absolutely not sense to even mention it and to create a prohibition, if nothing happens, or if you merely repeat what you saw the first time.

I think you're getting hung up on something: it is forbidden for the Aiel to go to Rhuidean. There are acceptions, the Clan Chief candidates go once, the Wise Ones go twice. It's not that people were forbidden to go through the Columns, they were just forbidden to go to Rhuidean, period.

As for seeing the columns again Aviendha tried to go through (for a third time) and nothing happened. It would seem to me that anyone that tried to go through a second time normally would have this happen to them, ie nothing.

So, what then, accounts for Aviendha's second trip through the columns? Her talent. Her ability to sense the purpose of ter'angreal. In this particular case, they tried to give an impression that these columns were something more than your average ter'angreal. Perhaps they were simply happy to have someone to 'talk' to them or perhaps Aviendha's ability conveys some ability to alter ter'angreal on some level. Whichever it was, I'm thinking that's the reason she got a second trip through. Anyone else would get one trip through the columns and see what their ancestors saw.

Where Nakomi comes into it, I'm not sure.

Wantanswers
03-09-2011, 01:18 AM
Except for... the Aes Sedai.

None of the woman in the White Tower is properly raised. Swearing on the Oath Rod, intended to bind criminal channelers, doesn't make one an Aes Sedai. Perhaps they'll discover that, now they are looking for clues about Elaines pregnancy.
I doubt the test of the 100 weaves makes one an Aes Sedai, a servant of all. Till know the woman in the Tower have shown they aren't servants at all.

Juan
03-09-2011, 02:49 AM
Sure they were. By today's standards they are Aes Sedai.

I see the point you're trying to make and I agree to an extent, but for the most part, I disagree.
Here's why:

The Aiel were pacifists back in the day. They're far from that now. (A good thing in my opinion). Does that mean they're not Aiel? They're still Aiel even if they've changed.

Same thing with the modern AS.

Besides I would argue your claim that they aren't servants of all. They have their own agenda, but then so did the AS in the Age of Legends. They still serve the world.

Example: even though Moiraine didn't go out and heal every person in the world doesn't mean she's not a servant of all. By saving and helping Rand multiple times since they met, for whatever her reasons, ultimately do the world good... In service of the world. Same with Cadsuane: as snotty as she is, and as self-interested as she is shown to be, the results of her actions in the aid given to Rand are a service to the world. Remember Rand is the savior of the world. Verin even though the good she did seemingly benifited only the Tower and the AS themselves, the result is that a cleansed Tower is a stronger and better Tower in the service of the world. I can go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

On a bit of a side note, Rand isn't the only one even if I assumed your statement was correct. That would also include all the Forsaken.

greatwolf
03-09-2011, 03:33 AM
Sure they were. By today's standards they are Aes Sedai...

On a bit of a side note, Rand isn't the only one even if I assumed your statement was correct. That would also include all the Forsaken.


What standards?:D

BTW, the forsaken are not considered AS by themselves or anyone else. They're certainly nobody's servants. The ashaman don't seem to be servants of anything other than destruction either.

Seth Baker
03-09-2011, 09:29 AM
Juan does a reasonably good job explaining why I think you're wrong. I think it's a strange argument, and I don't see any real reason for making it.

FelixPax
03-09-2011, 09:50 AM
I think Faile's going to be the other father, not Mat.

Perhaps Gonzo really does have a forum twin? :rolleyes:


Last I checked Faile was a female, so Seth Baker is proposing Faile is to turn into a male?

Shakes head and rolls eyes....

FelixPax
03-09-2011, 10:00 AM
So, what then, accounts for Aviendha's second trip through the columns? Her talent.

A person does not need any Talent of Dreaming, to use the 'Twisted Ring' Elayne lend her. Birgitte use of the 'Twisted Ring' is proof enough for that, e.g. seeking to protect Elayne and distract Moghedien in the TAR.

Aviendha wanted to see the future, and into the future did she go. A future taking into account her own biases & current knowledge base. Proof of that be seen in the four Aiel Dreamwalkers not Dreaming of a future with Egwene al'Vere nor Mat Cauthon in TSR book.



Where Nakomi comes into it, I'm not sure.

Nakomi is most likely one of the Aiel who broken off from the Clans to visit the Tinkers in Three Folds Land. Bair mentioned this very thing occurring too.

Nakomi's voice is one of those people who sought to recreate what was once in the past: Jenn Aiel. Nakomi is attempting to follow the Oaths of her ancestors, an Oath almost all the Wise Ones are not following currently.

Oneirist
03-09-2011, 10:24 AM
What standards?:D

BTW, the forsaken are not considered AS by themselves or anyone else. They're certainly nobody's servants. The ashaman don't seem to be servants of anything other than destruction either.

Rand seemed to consider them Aes Sedai, when he was referring to himself as the only properly raised male one who still served the Light. And some Shadowspawn destruction would be some good service right about now.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2011, 10:41 AM
Last I checked Faile was a female, so Seth Baker is proposing Faile is to turn into a male?Using Healing to turn a woman into a man is not possible.
That was what everyone believed, anyway, but in Nynaeve’s opinion the One Power should be able to Heal anything short of death. "If you have something useful to add, Marigan," she said sharply, "then say it. If not, keep quiet."So Nynaeve can actually do this.

Seth Baker
03-09-2011, 10:42 AM
Faile is clearly a cross-dresser, though, Felix. She rejected her effeminate name in favor of Falcon. For the record, Falcon is a masculine word in the romance languages. That symbolizes her growing acceptance of her masculinity.

ShadowbaneX
03-09-2011, 11:16 AM
Yes, but, by my 'theory', it was her Talent that allowed her to see the future.

That doesn't entirely explain her completely vanishing while Aviendha took a leak, nor why she was questioning so many beliefs.

Tamyrlin
03-09-2011, 11:53 AM
I think you're getting hung up on something: it is forbidden for the Aiel to go to Rhuidean. There are acceptions, the Clan Chief candidates go once, the Wise Ones go twice. It's not that people were forbidden to go through the Columns, they were just forbidden to go to Rhuidean, period.

As for seeing the columns again Aviendha tried to go through (for a third time) and nothing happened. It would seem to me that anyone that tried to go through a second time normally would have this happen to them, ie nothing.


She isn't talking about going to Rhuidean, she specifically mentions the columns. This isn't some general prohibition. Entering the columns twice was forbidden. That's very specific and meaningful. Considering what we know of the Ter'angreal like the dream rings, the idea that the Columns were built to show both past and future seems quite mundane.

ShadowbaneX
03-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Hummm, sounds like something to ask BS or Maria. I don't quite buy the idea that they were prohibited from going to the columns twice, but assuming that it is...yeah, I think I got nothing then. ;) It always seemed to me when I was reading that section that Aviendha got to see the future because she was able to commune with the columns via her Talent, and that it wouldn't have happened for anyone else but her.

Weird Harold
03-09-2011, 02:50 PM
That doesn't entirely explain her [Nakomi] completely vanishing while Aviendha took a leak, nor why she was questioning so many beliefs.

The whole encounter with Nakomi is weird; It reads like a fever dream or a drug assisted interrogation from the prisoner's POV.


The fact that Nakomi kept switching tenses, didn't have knowledge of current events, having an Aiel perspective on things, and refusing to answer where she was from.

If you only tuned into a conversation every hour or so wouldn't you get much the same effect as the coversation with Nakomi?

The theory is that Aviendha has a strong personality, the kind that is naturally resistant to Compulsion and she kept shaking off the light Compulsion that Nakomi was using to question her.

Spasmodean
03-09-2011, 06:11 PM
What standards?:D

BTW, the forsaken are not considered AS by themselves or anyone else. They're certainly nobody's servants. The ashaman don't seem to be servants of anything other than destruction either.

The Asha'man aren't servants, they're guardians.

kasper11
03-10-2011, 12:02 PM
So, what then, accounts for Aviendha's second trip through the columns? Her talent. Her ability to sense the purpose of ter'angreal. In this particular case, they tried to give an impression that these columns were something more than your average ter'angreal. Perhaps they were simply happy to have someone to 'talk' to them or perhaps Aviendha's ability conveys some ability to alter ter'angreal on some level. Whichever it was, I'm thinking that's the reason she got a second trip through. Anyone else would get one trip through the columns and see what their ancestors saw.


Question....do we know if any Aiel have gone through the columns since Rand? At the end of TSR, Rand and Asmodean have a huge power battle in Rhuideon. During the battle...

Dimly, he was aware of vast rumbles, of a thousand whining hums like some strange music. The glass columns, quivering, vibrating. He could not worry about them.

Could the immense channelling have triggered a change in the ter'angreal? Could it have been the battle have been a trigger that activated a second function?

ShadowbaneX
03-10-2011, 12:24 PM
Question....do we know if any Aiel have gone through the columns since Rand? At the end of TSR, Rand and Asmodean have a huge power battle in Rhuideon. During the battle...

Could the immense channelling have triggered a change in the ter'angreal? Could it have been the battle have been a trigger that activated a second function?
I doubt it. When she had first entered days before, there had been gai'shain in white carefully picking up fallen leaves and twigs. They had retreated as soon as they had seen her. Was she the first to go through the glass pillars since Rhuidean's transformation? Her own clan had sent no one, and she was certain she would have heard of it if the others had. That left only the Shaido, but they had rejected Rand's claims about the Aiel past. Aviendha suspected that if any Shaido had come, they would not have been able to bear what was shown here. They would have passed into the center of the glass columns and never returned. That had not been the case for Aviendha. She had survived. Indeed, everything she'd seen had been expected. Almost disappointingly so.

So Aviendha thinks to herself that she might well be the first to go through since Rand. We also know, from the end of the above paragraph and the next one after it, is that she sees exactly what Rand described, and she was disappointed by it. So, no, Rand's channeling did not change it, otherwise Aviendha's first trip though would have been different. It was only after she communed with the Columns that something different happened.