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Seth Baker
03-02-2011, 05:00 PM
In case you missed it, @BrandSanderson dropped a small bombshell on us on Twitter today.

"Wow. TDR 27 has a cool little foreshadowing for the end of AMOL that I'd never noticed before. #wotrr"

Twitter is blowing up about it. A few ideas are being floated. Here's a list (non-exclusive) of some, in no particular order. Some are mine, others are not.

-Egwene/Lanfear/Callandor/Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene meets Lanfear again? Lanfear gets her hands on Callandor? Callandor in Tel'aran'rhiod? Lots of theories about this particular combination of events.
-Egwene thinks that the only way to help Rand would be to gentle him.
-Verin comes into the kitchens. Maybe she stashed the Horn with Laras?
-Egwene thinks that Rand won't be for Elayne, at least not in marriage.
-Maybe he meant foreshadowing the end of Towers of Midnight, and this was a typo? The chapter does reference Verin being Black Ajah.

What do you think?

Chapter 27: http://bit.ly/hqc93D

Tamyrlin
03-02-2011, 05:35 PM
I know I posed some significant plot threads when originally seeing Brandon's tweet, but I doubt he would have broken something as big as Lanfear/Callandor regarding the end of the final book in the series. While Brandon is a bit chatty, that would be pretty damn significant. So, I recommend we look at something that wouldn't be so big, that even when we read it we wouldn't be disappointed that he broke the news early.

I like Verin's "have you found anything?" [...] "well keep looking" as a candidate. Potentially revealing another Black Ajah

Elayne discussing having three or four warders and marrying one, which Egwene thinks would be good if it were a commoner and not the Dragon Reborn. Foreshadowing a potential real marriage to Rand at the very end, assuming he lives, Tolkien-esque.

Another is Egwene seeing Rand smoking a pipe of tabac.

nameless
03-02-2011, 06:00 PM
Verin's "have you found anything? Well, keep looking" is the most likely one I can think of. Egwene chalks it up to Verin being easily distractable, but we know that she's just putting on an act when she pretends to be the absent-minded professor and isn't likely to have let anything slip by mistake. Maybe there's something to find in the kitchens? There have been some theories floating around that Laras is the one hiding the Horn.

Terez
03-02-2011, 06:14 PM
I do like the Laras theory. If for no other reason than that it's a shame she never met Mat when he was in the Tower. She would have loved him, as he would of course have reminded her of her days as a lively girl.

Weird Harold
03-02-2011, 06:17 PM
Another is Egwene seeing Rand smoking a pipe of tabac.

I don't see much foreshadowing in Egwene's visit to Rand's Dream campsite, but it might tie into Min's Viewing of two bodies and a smoking pipe?

The only potential foreshadowing I see is Silvie's comment, "What might a Forsaken give to hold Callandor?"

hinkel
03-02-2011, 09:40 PM
Given that Brandon posted his teaser between two tweets concerning events in the chapter we can pinpoint, it stands to reason that the foreshadowing occurred between those moments.

The tweet occurring prior to the teaser was about Eggy and her romantic feelings towards Rand and Galad as she's getting ready to test out the ring.

The tweet that follows is about the Supergirls first reaction to the BA in Tear being the desire to go after them.

Therefore, I don't think it's anything about Verin's comments or activities in the kitchens. It's almost certainly contained within the trip to T'A'R.

After a quick read through the relevant pages, the things that stand out to me are Eggy's thoughts about gentling Rand, her never killing him, Rand's fiery eyes, or something about the dream world being no less real for being a dream.

Seth Baker
03-03-2011, 12:20 AM
I agree with your deduction. There are a few other things that happen in T'A'R that are worth considering, but I think you're right.

Rand al'Fain
03-03-2011, 03:06 AM
From what I've been reading, both here and in the books, it looks to me that Eggy is starting to consider gentling Rand. Especially the way she was going in TOM? Yeah, I wouldn't put it past her to have that as a back-up plan at least.

GonzoTheGreat
03-03-2011, 05:25 AM
A whirring sound, and she jumped before she recognised a cricketObviously, Jiminy Cricket is going to save the day, by startling Shai'tan (Egwene's alter ego) at a crucial moment.

Seriously, it more likely has something to do with Lanfear. She gives quite a few interesting hints there, any one of which might be it.
"Even the Shadow can't take being called a fool."
"What wouldn't one of the Forsaken give, to hold Callandor?"

rdmaxwell
03-03-2011, 03:35 PM
I know Silvie=Lanfear, but what about her comment to Egwene?

"You know poor old Silvie, my Lady. Served your family faithfully all these years. Does this old face still frighten you? Don't let it, my Lady. It serves me, when I need it, as good as a prettier."

Somehow "Silvie" has been "serving" Egwene's "family" for a long time. That might come into play at Shayol Ghul.

nameless
03-03-2011, 04:47 PM
I never thought to wonder before, but why is Perrin chaining himself to a post? Not just any post, but a "thick pillar of rough-cut, black stone," which is hardly the regular decor for the interior of an inn. Previously when I've read that passage I thought the point of it was to reiterate the connection between Perrin and his wolf dreams and Egwene's TAR training, since tDR is when those story lines first started to be developed, but now I wonder if it's meant to foreshadow some sort of connection between Perrin and the Black Tower. He's planning to go there to investigate the second Dreamspike soon, and he was one of the first characters to start treating the Asha'man like human beings.

Terez
03-03-2011, 05:18 PM
I never thought to wonder before, but why is Perrin chaining himself to a post? Not just any post, but a "thick pillar of rough-cut, black stone," which is hardly the regular decor for the interior of an inn.
He thinks of himself as becoming a dangerous wolf, so he has chained himself to the post as you would chain up an attack dog to keep it from biting visitors. The post might be described that way just to emphasize its strength (perhaps because Perrin has broken posts in his dreams before).

Seth Baker
03-03-2011, 11:00 PM
From what I've been reading, both here and in the books, it looks to me that Eggy is starting to consider gentling Rand. Especially the way she was going in TOM? Yeah, I wouldn't put it past her to have that as a back-up plan at least.

I don't think she's considering it yet. I also doubt that this is the "cool little foreshadowing." That's kind of a big one. She's frustrated by Rand; she's scared by what he wants to do, but she's not a fool. Gentling the Dragon Reborn before the Last Battle - everyone knows what that would mean.

Terez
03-04-2011, 12:30 AM
I think she would kill him before she would gentle him.

GonzoTheGreat
03-04-2011, 03:44 AM
Yeah, he might not like being gentled, and Nynaeve would Heal him again anyway. So then there would be an angry Dragon roaming around. I think that Egwene is not stupid enough to risk that, but I am not entirely sure.

rdmaxwell
03-04-2011, 10:54 AM
Maybe Egwene is going to stick her head in a bear's mouth...Twice.

Once Luca's show arrives...

Juan
03-04-2011, 01:00 PM
The almighty Amyrlin would never do such a thing. :rolleyes:

Rand al'Fain
03-07-2011, 02:29 AM
The almighty Amyrlin would never do such a thing. :rolleyes:

And the ever wise Queen of Andor would never let herself get kidna-uh, tricked into- crap, lured into a-dammit!

Okay, whose idea was it to put a blonde on one of the most powerful thrones!?

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2011, 03:39 AM
Okay, whose idea was it to put a blonde on one of the most powerful thrones!?That would be young master al'Thor, now, wouldn't it?

Rand al'Fain
03-07-2011, 11:18 AM
That would be young master al'Thor, now, wouldn't it?
I was going to say the other Lords and Ladies who threw their vote in with her lot.

FelixPax
03-07-2011, 04:20 PM
What do you think?

Chapter 27: http://bit.ly/hqc93D


Some possibilities include:

Mierin was the redbird, who flashed crimson colors in the TAR to Egwene. Mierin learns that Egwene will not kill nor gentle Rand al'Thor.

She took another long breath to calm herself. “The only way to help him is to gentle him,” she muttered. “As well go ahead and kill him.” Her stomach twisted and knotted. “I’ll never do that. Never!”

A redbird had perched on a cloudberry bush nearby, crest lifting as it tilted its head to watch her cautiously. She addressed the bird. “Well, I am not helping anything standing here talking to myself, am I? Or talking to you, either.”

The redbird took wing as she stepped toward the bush. It was still a flash of crimson as she took the next step, vanished into a thicket she took a third.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 'Tel'aran'rhiod' -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with a redbird/Mierin



@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Did Mierin 'pull' Egwene's Dream, to save her from a certain death? Rand al'Thor was going to killing her. #wot

@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Which implies the Wise One's belief that the Shadow's Chosen 'only' used Dream pulling for Evil purposes is wrong.


She stopped and fished the stone ring on its cord out of the front of her dress. Why was it not changing? Everything had changed so fast up till now that she could hardly catch her breath. Why not now? Unless there was some answer right here? She looked around uncertainly. The wildflowers taunted her, and the larksong mocked her. This place seemed too much of her own making.

Determined, she tightened her hand around the ter’angreal. “Take me where I need to be.” She shut her eyes and concentrated on the ring. It was stone, after all; Earth should give her some feeling for it. “Do it. Take me where I need to be.” Once again she embraced saidar, fed a trickle of the One Power into the ring. She knew it did not need any flow of Power directed at it to work, and she did not try to do anything to it. Only to give it more of the Power to use. “Take me to where I can find an answer. I need to know what the Black Ajah wants. Take me to the answer.”

“Well, you’ve found your way at last, child. All sorts of answers here.”

Egwene’s eyes snapped open. She stood in a great hall, its vast domed ceiling supported by a forest of massive redstone columns. And hanging in midair was a sword of crystal, gleaming and sparkling as it slowly revolved. She was not certain, but she thought it might be the sword Rand had been reaching for in that dream. That other dream. This all felt so real, she had to keep reminding herself it was a dream, too.

An old woman stepped out of the shadows of the column, bent and hobbling with a stick. Ugly did not begin to describe her. She had a bony, pointed chin, an even bonier, sharper nose, and it seemed there were more warts growing hairs on her face than there was face.

“Who are you?” Egwene said. The only people she had seen so far in Tel’aran’rhiod were those she already knew, but she did not think she could have forgotten this poor old woman.

“Just poor old Silvie, my Lady,” the old woman cackled. At the same time she managed a stoop that might have been meant for a curtsy, or possibly a cringe. “You know poor old Silvie, my Lady. Served your family faithfully all these years. Does this old face still frighten you? Don’t let it, my Lady. It serves me, when I need it, as good as a prettier.”

“Of course, it does,” Egwene said. “It’s a strong face. A good face.” She hoped the woman believed it. Whoever this Silvie was, she seemed to think she knew Egwene. Perhaps she knew answers, too. “Silvie, you said something about finding answers here.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 'Tel'aran'rhiod' -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Silvie/Mierin

Mierin pulled Egwene into her Dream twice. First by saving Egwene's life from Rand. Second, by taking Egwene to see and learn about Callandor.


Pulling a person into a Dream is not always Evil, the four Wise Ones Dreamwalkers were incorrect. Mierin did not harm Egwene al'Vere at all, in fact she saved her life from both Rand & Be'lal.




Separately there is a connection between TDR 27 which Brandon Sanderson mentioned in his tweet and tEotW Ch. 37 “The Long Chase”: Dreaming.


@BrandSanderson Who's point of view saw this foreshadowing event? "The hand on her arm appeared to come out of thin air." (Nynaeve!)

Foreshadowing Lan's return to life right before Nynaeve's eyes in AMoL book.

@BrandSanderson I've always been surprised by how much information RJ alluded to:"Abruptly Nynaeve was jerked from memory back to the night"



What big hint is find within TDR 27 in terms of AMoL storylines?


Nynaeve pulling Lan back to life.


Three parallel facts are known:

The same people can and do exist in Mirror Worlds as in the True World (TGH book, Mierin claims)
Mierin pulled Egwene into her own Dream; Moghedien ripped Birgitte out of the TAR.
One can travel back in time using Portal Stones or by visiting the Aelfinn, Eelfinn.


Nynaeve will combine all these sets of knowledge to bring Lan back from a physical death in the True World. Death is an illusion when one lives on in a Mirror World.


Nynaeve's "Dream" shall help mold the beginnings of the Fourth Age. Just as Gaul & the Amayar believe is possible, a 'Dream within a Dream'.

Seth Baker
03-07-2011, 04:44 PM
It's also possible that Mierin was the swirl of butterflies.

Rand al'Fain
03-07-2011, 05:10 PM
Wouldn't that make the bird a Tinker?

nameless
03-07-2011, 05:38 PM
No, no, no! The Tinkers all joined Luca's circus ages ago. The bird must be the reincarnation of a famous feather dancer from the Covenant of Ten Nations days who once performed the sa'sara for King Aemon, who was himself reborn as a pastrami sandwich that was eaten by a farrier who reshod the horse ridden by the reincarnation of Bonwhin, who was later reborn as Elaida (who always wears red... coincidence? I think not.)

Seth Baker
03-07-2011, 05:44 PM
No, no, no! The Tinkers all joined Luca's circus ages ago. The bird must be the reincarnation of a famous feather dancer from the Covenant of Ten Nations days who once performed the sa'sara for King Aemon, who was himself reborn as a pastrami sandwich that was eaten by a farrier who reshod the horse ridden by the reincarnation of Bonwhin, who was later reborn as Elaida (who always wears red... coincidence? I think not.)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

FelixPax
03-07-2011, 05:55 PM
Other possibilities include:



Mistress of Novices meeting Laras, Bodewhim, Novices (Kin Novices too), Accepted in the Kitchens in an attempt to overturn Egwene's judgment against an attempt at a political compromise with the Seanchan Empire: Aes Sedai, Kin, Sea Folk, Wilders are "followers" of Mat Cauthon option.


The Mistress of Novices certainly had reason to check on them, as well as on the novices working in the kitchens, and Elaida had reason to keep an eye on the Daughter-Heir of Andor.


Elayne bonding Mat Cauthon as one of her three or four Warders. Currently Elayne has bonded Rand, Birgitte as Warders and has a Sister-Wife bond with Aviendha. (Mat Cauthon possibly will be ultimate bonded to Fortuona, Aviendha, Elayne, Min as a Warder in AMoL book in theory.)

@BrandSanderson TDR 27: ...good for the Daughter-Heir to marry a commoner, as long as he’s an Andorman, but not to marry the Dragon Reborn.


Elayne sat by the table, making nervous conversation.

“Green Ajah,” the golden-haired woman said for what Egwene thought must be the twentieth time since midday. “I might choose Green Ajah myself, Egwene. Then I can have three or four Warders, perhaps marry one of them. Who better for Prince Consort of Andor than a Warder? Unless it is . . . ” She trailed off, blushing.

Egwene felt a pang of jealousy she thought she had put down long ago, and sympathy mixed with it. Light, how can I be jealous when I cannot look at Galad without shivering and feeling as if I am melting, both at the same time? Rand was mine, but no more. I wish I could give him to you, Elayne, but he is not for either of us, I think. It may be all well and good for the Daughter-Heir to marry a commoner, as long as he’s an Andorman, but not to marry the Dragon Reborn.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Elayne, Nynaeve

Mat Cauthon is an Andoran or Two Rivers man by blood too.


Nynaeve and a third person could Dream together in the TAR (again).

Nynaeve handed her the pouch, and a long, thin strip of leather. “Perhaps it will work for more than one at once. I could . . . go with you, perhaps.”

@BrandSanderson TDR 27: also scenes of rooms going from Light to Dark with only 1 candle lit in the Tower, are 'repeated' across the series.

@BrandSanderson (cont'd) TDR 27: In particular a later scene with Morgase, Tallanvor, Lini, Breane in Amador when the Seanchan attacked.


@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Loved this line: "Rand, are you all right? Perrin? Who was she? Sleep came." --Egwene's own memory issues

Egwene al'Vere is the re-born soul of the Soldier Amyrlin, who was of the Green Ajah. That's one reason Birgitte is so fearful of Egwene al'Vere's character in the story. Why? Birgitte knows exactly who Egwene's soul is, her past & some of her future, too.

Point is Egwene has major identity questions of her own, just like Rand did much of the series.


@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Maybe you noticed the "Song" being sung by a frog & chorus with the trees around Egwene with the Moon's crescent up.


A whirring sound, and she jumped before she recognized a cricket. A frog gave a bass croak in the darkness, and a chorus answered it. As her eyes adapted, she dimly made out trees all around her. Clouds blanketed the stars, and the moon was a thin sliver.

Clouds are currently blanketing the Stars over the majority of the Westlands as of ToM book. The Moon is a symbol of Mierin, and Silver reflects the Light to ward off evil. The Song shall be Sung in AMoL book, by a character symbolized as a frog among many many others.



@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Mierin as Silvie to Egwene, "But who see a servant?" (Mierin is a servant....)

“Oh, you’ve come to the right place for answers, my Lady. The Heart of the Stone is full of answers. And secrets. The High Lords would not be pleased to see us here, my Lady. Oh, no. None but the High Lords enter here. And servants, of course.” She gave a sly, screeching laugh. “The High Lords don’t sweep and mop. But who sees a servant?”


@BrandSanderson TDR 27: There's a line where Elayne claims her mother Morgase, Gareth Bryne, the whole army against Tar Valon. An apt hint.


“I have to write to my mother,” Elayne said. When she saw the looks they gave her, her voice became defensive. “I have already vanished once without her knowing where I was. If I do it again . . . You do not know Mother’s temper. She could send Gareth Bryne and the whole army against Tar Valon. Or hunting after us.”

If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a superior position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower.

Gareth Bryne leading Salidar Aes Sedai armies and Morgase (Mother) leading the Perrin's armies with Galad's, Berelain's, Alliandre's forces likely will attempt to invade Tar Valon to counter the Seanchan's major attack.

Gareth & Morgase on one side, and Elaida as a Seanchan damane on the other.


Elayne will defy her Mother, the Amyrlin Seat (Egwene) in AMoL book.

“I will not work in the kitchens while you two are off adventuring, either. I just have to tell my mother than I am out of the Tower on the Amyrlin’s orders, so she won’t become furious if she hears rumors. I do not have to tell her where we are going, or why.”



Demandred has a 'secret plot' to backstab Moridin plans, according to Silvie/Mierin:


What kind of secrets?”

But Silvie was hobbling toward the crystal sword. “Plots,” she said as if to herself. “All of them pretending to serve the Great Lord, and all the while plotting and planning to regain what they lost. Each one thinking he or she is the only one plotting. Ishamael is a fool!”


Moridin knows about the Shadow Coast Mountains plan, Demandred is commanding. (Hence a reason for Aran'gar's POV in KoD book, where Moridin is forced to claim Sammael sent 100,000 Shadowspawn thru the Ways, which Demandred is known to be using.)
However Demandred's backstab plan involves possibly using the giant sa'angreal found in the Black Hills against everyone including Moridin. The likely control statue for this giant sa'angreal was previously located in Rhuidean, next to the Tree of Life. Its currently missing as of ToM book (Aviendha point of view).



Mierin will have a chance at holding Callandor in AMoL book.

“Callandor, my Lady. You know that, don’t you? The Sword That Cannot Be Touched.” Abruptly she swung her stick behind her; a foot from the sword, the stick stopped with a dull thwack and bounded back. Silvie grinned wider. “The Sword That Is Not a Sword, though there’s precious few knows what it is. But none can touch it save one. They saw to that, who put it here. The Dragon Reborn will hold Callandor one day, and prove to the world he’s the Dragon by doing it. The first proof, anyway. Lews Therin come back for all the world to see, and grovel before. Ah, the High Lords don’t like having it here. They like nothing to do with the Power. They’d rid themselves of it, if they could. If they could. I suppose there’s others would take it, if they could. What wouldn’t one of the Forsaken give, to hold Callandor?”

(Theory) Mierin will use Callandor's power to guide the weaves of Saidin and Saidar to re-seal the Bore fully, while in a linked Circle with Rand al'Thor and Alivia.


Who will be happy to leave Tar Valon, according to Elayne?


“I just thought of someone who’d be happy to carry Elayne’s letter for her. Happy to leave Tar Valon, too. In fact, I’d bet on it.”



Mat Cauthon, aka Aemon reborn, Artur Hawkwing reborn. :D

Seth Baker
03-07-2011, 06:24 PM
You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

FelixPax
03-07-2011, 11:42 PM
You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

Ever heard of promises to the reader, mentioned by Brandon Sanderson? If not, note every single promise, oath, agreement given by each character in the whole series. Promises do matter in WoT.


I've written over 1,200 posts at Theoryland Forum, how many of them have you read? Most Theorylander's have voiced displeasure, when I write out and post 20-30 page forum documents ... you are unique, it seems.

Last I checked I'm writing for free here... unlike someone named Brandon Sanderson... who gives out far less information than I do.

Robert Jordan placed every single word in these series on purpose, according multiple recorded interviews. He knew the ending of this series, before writing 'The Eye of the World' book. Many of the sentences & scenes are meant to be read or interpreted more than one way. Jordan begins tEotW book being extremely subtle, vague is absolutely crucial scenes. He shows us only what he wants to, when he wants to.

Why do I emphasize the narrative descriptions of the text? Because RJ followed other writers styles to slowly build up unconscious imaginary in the back of readers minds, just like it is common in Estonian historical tales.

It's know that RJ created and used a mindmap of clustering concepts when writing WoT books.


RJ used 'descriptions' to create foreshadowing.



I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Birgitte directly said she remembers everything, when she was ripped out, to Elayne. Birgitte knows exactly who she is, Mat is, Elayne is, Valan Luca is, Nynaeve is, among many others.

Don't you recollect "WHO" the Soldier Queen is? Don't you remember when Birgitte mentions living previously in her lives? Don't you recall the Promises both Aviendha AND Min gave to Birgitte?

I have written about this in detail previously, about how Birgitte knows what she knows.



Knows Nynaeve is the Soldier Queen.
Knows Nynaeve was once Queen of Aramaelle.
Knows a Giant on a Glass Mountain will be slayed.
Knows exactly who Valan Luca is: Jenn Aiel reborn.
Mat marrying Elayne, Aviendha, Min and yes by deduction Fortuona.
Mat becoming First-Brothers with Rand al'Thor.
Mat becoming acknowledged as the Coramoor.
Mat being acknowledged as "He Who Comes With the Dawn" by Aviendha, Gaul, Bain, Chiad et al.
Mat becoming King of the Aes Sedai.





Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

Mierin claimed the very same people existed in Mirror Worlds, as in the True World. Call that what you will, a 'soul clone', a 'soul copy', a 'soul split' et la... however Mierin said in "The Great Hunt" book in front of Hurin, Loial and Rand.


What DID I write, once again?

Mat Cauthon is the soul of Aemon reborn.
Mat Cauthon is the soul of Artur Hawkwing reborn.

I assumed readers would have connected the dots, and known that Aemon, Artur Hawkwing were born in different time periods. I guess I was incorrect in that generic assumption, sigh.

It is the very same soul, who has been reborn multiple times throughout the Wheel of Time:


Artur Hawkwing
Aemon
A farmer with a quarterstaff who defeated the greatest swordman in history, Jearom (TDR, Ch.24; LoC, Ch.1)
Mat Cauthon


Who's Sword is "Justice" ultimately?

Mat Cauthon.





Who else soul was reborn?



Dermon was reborn as Thom
Rogosh Eagle-Eye was reborn as Thom
Dunsinin was reborn as Moiraine
Mordaine was reborn as Moiraine
Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was reborn as Tuon/Fortuona
Aemon al Caar al Thorin was reborn as Mat Cauthon
Luca was reborn as Valan Luca

Isebaille Tobanyi was reborn as Kiruna Nachiman

(Ishara's mother & Governor)Endara Casalain was reborn as Morgase
(Hawkwing Greatest General) Souran Maravaile was reborn as Daerid Ondin or possibly Talmanes. (1st a Commoner, 2nd a Noble who wears no Noble colors; Souran was a Commoner.)
Queen Ethenielle Kirukon Materasu was reborn as Nynaeve al'Meara
Jeorad Manyard was reborn as Juilin
Panarch Farede was reborn as Amathera
Jearom was reborn as Galad



--------------------------------------------------


Somewhat related foreshadowing is:


The House of Matherin was once Mat Cauthon noble house in a prior lifetime.

Matherin was an old House, if not large or strong, and the main stairs, leading down to the entry hall, were broad and trimmed with marble railings. The entry hall itself was a generous space, with gray-and-blue floor tiles and mirrored oil lamps hanging on chains from the ceiling twenty feet above. There was nothing in the way of gilding and little inlay, but ornately carved chests and cabinets stood along the sides of the hall, and two wall hangings were displayed on one wall. One showed men hunting leopards from horseback, a chancy business at best, and the other women of House Matherin presenting a sword to the first Queen of Andor, an event that Matherin treasured and that might or might not have actually happened.

“Matherin has always maintained faith with Trakand,” Elayne told him, “and I put my trust that it always will. I value Lord Aedmun’s loyalty, Master Ros, and yours.”

She did not insult Matherin, and him, by promising to remember or offering rewards, yet Master Ros’ broad smile said she had already given him as much reward as he desired. Matherin would receive rewards, if they were earned, but they could not be held out as if offering to buy a horse.


Elayne is ultimately going to be incorrect in her originally judgment of Matherin being too small to matter.

Things had been bad enough when she had three declared rivals, but now Naean and Elenia were united behind Arymilla Marne, of all people, the least likely of the three to have succeeded, and that meant she had two Houses—two large enough to count; Matherin and those eighteen others she had visited were too small—her own Trakand and Dyelin’s Taravin, to face six.

Crossroads of Twilight - Chapter 11 "Talk of Debts" -- Elayne point of view

Verin Mathwin's name sounds similar to 'Matherin'. Verin Mathwin grew up in Far Madding, which once was in the same nation-state as the House of Matherin, years ago.



The only person Mat Cauthon has ever once wished would give him a "Noble Title" is Elayne, ironically enough.


Thing is a Noble Title given by Elayne will not rein in Mat Cauthon's behavior just as it didn't rein in Birgitte's.


Is that why you saddled me with a title? Did you think it would rein me in? Wouldn’t have been the first silly thought in that head of yours. For someone who thinks so clearly most of the time . . . Well.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 7 "The Streets of Caemlyn" - Elayne point of view; with Birgitte


There is an apt foreshadowing for AMoL book, to be found in Winter Heart, Chapter 7. :)



Elaida's foretelling of the Royal House of Andor being crucial to the Last Battle.


It was not widely known what made Elayne more important than any other noble with a strong claim to a throne. Aside from the fact that she would be Aes Sedai one day, of course.

Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, a Talent many thought lost before her, and long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle. Twenty-five years gone and more, as soon as it became clear that Morgase Trakand would gain the throne in the Succession, Elaida had fastened herself to the girl, as she was then. How Elayne was crucial, Elaida did not know, but Foretelling never lied. Sometimes she almost hated the Talent. She hated things she could not control.


The Path of Daggers, Prologue 'Lightnings' -- Elaida point of view

What is crucial to the Last Battle, is Elayne AND Fortuona together marrying Mat Cauthon. Why? That act immediately stops Seanchan sul'dam & damane from attacking upon Aes Sedai. Thus, together they can re-direct their combined forces against the Shadow.


Elaida already "obey" Elayne, as Queen of Andor, because she said this Elayne in the White Tower previously.

Rand al'Fain
03-08-2011, 02:16 AM
Your forgot that the bird is a Tinker felix! Your slipping.

FelixPax
03-08-2011, 01:38 PM
Your forgot that the bird is a Tinker felix! Your slipping.

Slipping am I? Oh, really now?

Luca is the one who slipped and fell into a thornbush (TSR). ;)

Valan Luca is the one who has a writ of protection from the Daughter of Nine Moons. :D


Though I guess your wink-wink claim is that if Mat Cauthon is to become a Jenn Aiel, his soul's one time mother is one too? Rhea gave birth to Aemon; Rhea's soul is Mierin, while Aemon's soul is Mat Cauthon. Hence, that redbird is truly a Jenn Aiel at heart.

Beauty and Ugliness is an illusion, while one's heart & soul is the true measure.

Some how I suspect Seth Baker is going to attack that hypothesis--LOL.

Rand al'Fain
03-08-2011, 03:21 PM
I guess the TIC comment went over your head a bit.

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 04:00 PM
Slipping am I? Oh, really now?

Luca is the one who slipped and fell into a thornbush (TSR). ;)

Valan Luca is the one who has a writ of protection from the Daughter of Nine Moons. :D


Though I guess your wink-wink claim is that if Mat Cauthon is to become a Jenn Aiel, his soul's one time mother is one too? Rhea gave birth to Aemon; Rhea's soul is Mierin, while Aemon's soul is Mat Cauthon. Hence, that redbird is truly a Jenn Aiel at heart.

Beauty and Ugliness is an illusion, while one's heart & soul is the true measure.

Some how I suspect Seth Baker is going to attack that hypothesis--LOL.

Hardly. I'm going to propose an alternative one with exactly the same grounding in reality.

Valan Luca fell into a thornbush. What else has thorns? Rose bushes. Who is represented by roses? The Queen of Andor. Elayne. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

Egwene thought that an Andorman, a commoner would be acceptable. Valan Luca is a Tinker. Where did we first meet the Tinkers? Near Andor. Valan Luca is an Andorman. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

Tam al'Thor is Birgitte reborn. His skill with the bow is unmatched. Cenn Buie is Gaidal Cain. They're both Tinker Jenn Aiel. They've sworn to Perrin, who is Beidomon reborn. Beidomon was a craftsman Aes Sedai, drilling into the pattern; Perrin is a craftsman without the ability to channel. But he can still use Tel'aran'rhiod. Beidomon was a male Dreamer too. That's how he knew how to drill through into the Dark One's prison.

So Tam al'Thor/Birgitte/Tinker Jenn Aiel was the redbird. He was warning Egwene that Elayne would marry Valan Luca.

QED

Bluedust
03-08-2011, 08:01 PM
You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

He's a joke account that knows how to get a rise out of people by posting nonsense. Just ignore him.

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 08:11 PM
He's a joke account that knows how to get a rise out of people by posting nonsense. Just ignore him.

I know joke accounts when I see them, and he looks like one. But he's like this everywhere. On Twitter, interacting with Brandon Sanderson.

As crazy as it is, I've come across other people who mince up books when reading them, and read similarly crazy meanings where they weren't written that way. Writers who deliberately foreshadow and who have a well-constructed story bring them out of the woodwork.

I recall reading a story about this kind of reading once. A professor gave a lecture on an early book by Isaac Asimov, discussing the veiled meanings and references in the text. At one point, an attendee stood up, and asked a question about one particular meaning. The lecturer answered that Asimov's meaning was clear. The attendee responded, "That's odd, because I'm Isaac Asimov, and that's not what I meant."

I wish I could find a direct source of that meeting, because I'm missing some of it.

FelixPax
03-09-2011, 10:29 AM
Hardly. I'm going to propose an alternative one with exactly the same grounding in reality.

Valan Luca fell into a thornbush. What else has thorns? Rose bushes. Who is represented by roses? The Queen of Andor. Elayne. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

You argument is an absolutely poor thought experiment without any evidence nor proof. At least when Terez makes a claim she uses quotations, interviews, video recordings for evidence. One would assume an would-be lawyer should know better. Guess not. Even a mathematician would have done better (e.g. Proofs).



Elayne lacks feeling in that way for Valan Luca. Whereas Elayne has been slowly warming to, Mat Cauthon, after Egwene al'Vere originally pushed them apart in Tar Valon.


“I want you to carry a letter for me,” Elayne said before Nynaeve could speak. “To my mother, in Caemlyn.” She smiled, making a dimple in her cheek. “I would appreciate it so very much, Mat.” The morning light through the windows seemed to pick out highlights in her hair.

I wonder if she likes to dance. He pushed the thought right out of his head. “That does not sound too very hard, but it’s a long trip. What do I get out of it?” From the look on her face, he did not think that dimple had failed her very often.

She drew herself up, slim and proud. He could almost see a throne behind her. “Are you a loyal subject of Andor? Do you not wish to serve the Lion Throne, and your Daughter-Heir?”

Mat snickered.

“I told you that would not work either,” Egwene said. “Not with him.”

Elayne had a wry twist to her mouth. “I thought it worth a try. It always works on the Guards, in Caemlyn. You said if I smiled—” She cut off short, very obviously not looking at him.

What did you say, Egwene, he thought, furious. That I’m a fool for any girl who smiles at me? He kept his outward calm, though, and managed to maintain his grin.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 28 "A Way Out" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene


Mat's independent streak took Egwene's influence as a negative to following up on his initial liking of Elayne.



Who does Valan Luca believe will choose him?

'Nana', Nynaeve al'Meara.


Luca sighed heavily. “You are the only woman for me, Nana. Let other men choose boring flutterers with their shy sighs. A man would know he had to walk through fire and tame a lioness with his bare hands every time he approached you. Every day an adventure, and every night . . . ” His smile almost earned him boxed ears. “I will find you again, Nana, and you will choose me. I know it in here.” Thumping his chest dramatically, he gave his cape an even more pretentious swirl. “And you know it, too, my dearest Nana. In your fair heart, you do.”

Nynaeve did not know whether to shake her head or gape. Men were mad. All of them.

He insisted on escorting her back to her wagon, holding her arm as if they were at a ball.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 47 "The Price of a Ship" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Valan Luca


That last bolding is foreshadowing, I believe for AMoL book. How?

Valan Luca's writ of protection does not include Nynaeve's name on it as someone who is excluded from protection. Plus Cerandin will recognize Nynaeve as being part of Luca's Circus Showfolk.

Seth Baker
03-09-2011, 10:39 AM
You think I don't have any proof because you disagree with me, but I have justification for that theory that is practically identical to the "rationale" you have for your lunacy.

nameless
03-09-2011, 01:33 PM
I know joke accounts when I see them, and he looks like one. But he's like this everywhere. On Twitter, interacting with Brandon Sanderson.

As crazy as it is, I've come across other people who mince up books when reading them, and read similarly crazy meanings where they weren't written that way. Writers who deliberately foreshadow and who have a well-constructed story bring them out of the woodwork.

I recall reading a story about this kind of reading once. A professor gave a lecture on an early book by Isaac Asimov, discussing the veiled meanings and references in the text. At one point, an attendee stood up, and asked a question about one particular meaning. The lecturer answered that Asimov's meaning was clear. The attendee responded, "That's odd, because I'm Isaac Asimov, and that's not what I meant."

I wish I could find a direct source of that meeting, because I'm missing some of it.

Authorial intention is a fallacy. The book you read is never the same as the book the author wrote. My own favorite anecdote on the subject, which I'm likewise unable to find a source for, is about a fancy reception attended by Robert Frost at which a poetry critic went on at great length about all the "hidden meanings" in Frost's work. When a drunken guest confronted Frost to ask if he'd really included any hidden meanings, Frost simply replied "he read them, so somebody must have written them." If the text supports a particular interpretation it doesn't matter whether the author intended to put it there or not. What matters is that it ended up there.

Of course, Felix isn't operating under the same criteria for "support" as the rest of us.

FelixPax
03-10-2011, 09:46 AM
You think I don't have any proof because you disagree with me, but I have justification for that theory that is practically identical to the "rationale" you have for your lunacy.

Seth, even Ms. Quotations Terez lives up to her nickname, by showing quotations as evidence for her "Gawyn Will Kill Rand" hypothesis claim.

Whereas, Seth's rule's of discovery, evidence are purely HERESAY. Your methodology stinks to high heavens, didn't you learn anything in Law School? Or did you enroll in a degree mill?

If you really desire a discussion about the Wheel of Time series, rather than simply "labeling"... you need to use evidence to back up your narrative.

I've met my share of lawyers, judges, law professors, jury consultants and so far your in the bottom 1% of the group. You can do far better.

As they say in Missouri, "SHOW ME".

Seth Baker
03-10-2011, 10:17 AM
I'm not even sure if I'm trolling you or you're trolling me, anymore.

nameless - it doesn't matter, for finding abstract meaning. For making a concrete prediction of where an author will go in a sequel, it's absolutely pivotal. There's a huge difference between the two.

Felix - I'm at a Top 20 law school, and in the top 1/3 of my class. The reason I'm posting these things without support is because you do the same. I know how reliable evidence works. You apparently don't.

Everyone has to make inferential leaps of some kind, especially when we're theorizing. But you make Michael Jordan look like Stephen Hawking.

fdsaf3
03-10-2011, 10:56 AM
Seth - just leave it alone. And to be honest, I'm not sure if you're helping or hurting your cause by saying that you are in a good law school and in the top third of your class.

Back on topic (somewhat): does anyone care to propose a viable scenario where Egwene could still Rand? Rand has been shown to be able to shield Egwene and Elayne together without breaking a sweat, and that was before he evolved to the current channeling beast that he is. Unless Egwene had a circle of the 13 most powerful female channelers (because how is she going to get a male to increase the size of the circle?), I don't see it happening. Not to mention that a few of the most powerful female channelers (Nyneave, Alivia) won't help.

Seth Baker
03-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Back on topic (somewhat): does anyone care to propose a viable scenario where Egwene could still Rand? Rand has been shown to be able to shield Egwene and Elayne together without breaking a sweat, and that was before he evolved to the current channeling beast that he is. Unless Egwene had a circle of the 13 most powerful female channelers (because how is she going to get a male to increase the size of the circle?), I don't see it happening. Not to mention that a few of the most powerful female channelers (Nyneave, Alivia) won't help.

Fair point. I'm not sure how much it was figurative when Egwene thought that she wasn't sure 13 could hold Rand when he went to Tar Valon.

Jonai
03-10-2011, 02:16 PM
Thanks for the laughs Felix and Seth. Considering Nynaeve pictures thorns when she opens herself to saidar, Luca and her will probably marry after Lan's death. ;)

:re Egwene stilling: she could probably hold enough saidar to sever Rand with the Tower's bone rod sa'angreal. Assuming he's unaided.

fdsaf3
03-10-2011, 04:18 PM
I am by no means an expert in the field of Power power (ha ha), but Rand is at male Forsaken strength in terms of his Power capability. Alivia, the strongest female channeler, is in that same league. Nynaeve is noticeably weaker in the Power than Alivia, and Egwene is a step down from Nynaeve.

There's a lot I admit to not knowing about how the Power works (i.e. whether channeling through a sa'angerel is multiplicative of an individual's strength or additive). I think it's a matter of speculation on whether he could be stilled until more explicit rules for strength are laid down. Still a fun thought exercise though.

skaywalker
03-11-2011, 02:22 AM
Nynaeve is strong enough to be evenly match with a Forsaken (eg - Moghedien) and with her angreal and ter'angreal I think she will be one tough opponent.

And I think Eggy is not a "step down" from her, I think there are at least 3-4 steps

Terez
03-11-2011, 03:22 AM
Nynaeve is strong enough to be evenly match with a Forsaken (eg - Moghedien) and with her angreal and ter'angreal I think she will be one tough opponent.

And I think Eggy is not a "step down" from her, I think there are at least 3-4 steps
I don't believe we know of anyone in between them. Moghedien was the weakest of the Forsaken in the Power, and Nynaeve matched her in TSR. Cadsuane is a step below the supergirls (Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha), and Moiraine-Siuan-Elaida-Romanda-Lelaine were next before stilling and 'Finn power-sucking. I think that Nicola was on that level also, or maybe Cadsuane's level. Alivia and Talaan are a notch above Nynaeve, and I think Sharina and Lanfear are only one notch above that. Graendal and Semirhage are probably around the same level as Alivia and Talaan, and Mesaana is probably about equal to Moghedien. Perhaps there are two notches between Nynaeve and the top, but I can't recall anything that makes it clear either way. In any case, there are no notches between the supergirls and Nynaeve. On the 21-point scale, it probably goes like this:

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Alivia and Talaan (Graendal and Semirhage)
19 - Nynaeve (Moghedien and Mesaana)
18 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
17 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
16 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
15 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

There might be another level between Nynaeve and Sharina, and Nynaeve might have actually moved up the scale? The comparisons to Moghedien and Mesaana were based upon actual strength (she was as strong as Moghedien in TSR, and probably stronger than Mesaana in TOM according to Brandon), but the comparison between Nynaeve and Talaan and Sharina is based on potential. Also guessing on Graendal's and Semirhage's placements. Probably the bottom 5-7 or so levels aren't even strong enough to test for the shawl - RJ said 62.5% of the bell curve, whatever that happens to amount to (most channelers are in the middle somewhere).

1Powerslave
03-11-2011, 06:02 AM
An example of a bell curve:
http://askville.amazon.com/SimilarQuestions.do?req=basis+normal+bell+curve+ed ucation+intelligence+true+idiots+outnumber

If channelers strength is indeed distributed as the bell curve then there would be just as many channelers born with a tiny ability like Morgase (1 on the 21-scale, leftmost part of the curve) than an ability with strength of 21 on the scale (rightmost part of the curve).

GonzoTheGreat
03-11-2011, 06:42 AM
It is probably only half a bell, or something like that. Or maybe there are lots of people with a negative ability for channeling. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader how one would measure that.

David Selig
03-11-2011, 08:16 AM
There were two Aiel Wise Ones present at Elayne - Avi's first-sister ceremony, who were stronger in the Power than Elayne, but weaker than Nynaeve.

WH Prologue, Elayne PoV

Not like two others in the room she recognized, bony Tamela with her angular face and Viendre, a beautiful, blue-eyed eagle. Both were stronger in the Power than she, stronger than any sister she had met save Nynaeve.

IIRC, they are never mentioned again after that scene, which is a bit weird given their strength.

*edit* I now realised that this phrasing above can mean those two WO are equal to Nynaeve in the Power, it's just that in every saidar strenght ranking I usually see them on a level or two below.

Jonai
03-11-2011, 01:52 PM
If there is only one level between Nynaeve and the other supergirls its a pretty staggering level. I think it more likely that RJ just didn't make many female channelers in the intervening space so as to present a gap to forsaken strength. YOu've got Egwene's comments in tSR to go bye and then of course Elayne's comments and thoughts through out their later adventuring days. Nothing is definite of course, but it seems more substantial than say, Moiraine to Cadsuane, or Cadsuane to Egwene. Most of are so called evidence is supposition though. You've got Moggy (Moggy shall rise again!) bringing up the bottom rung of forsaken strength. Graendal thinks to herself that in the aol, that male channelers stronger than herself were uncommon, and females rare indeed. Cyndane is stronger than Granny and Lanfear stronger than Cyndane, though its impossible to determine if that dropped her a whole level. Keep in mind also that the top female rung is a couple rungs down from the top male rung. And of course, even just angreal, can easily double the amount of the Power you can hold.

Terez
03-12-2011, 07:41 AM
The thing about the levels is that there are degrees within the level. When Egwene says that Bode nearly matches her own potential, that means she's probably on the same level on the 21-point scale, not the level below as one might think.

There probably should be a level between Lanfear and Graendal, though. I'd reasoned that out before, but then I forgot about it. So...

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Cyndane, Alivia, and Talaan
19 - Nynaeve (Graendal and Semirhage)
18 - Moghedien and Mesaana
17 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
16 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
15 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
14 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

Still guessing, though. It could be that the Supergirls are even with Moghedien and Mesaana by now.

finnssss
03-12-2011, 02:49 PM
Linda has a pretty in depth list going over at The 13th...
http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

Ariectus
03-13-2011, 10:10 PM
I for one appreciate felix's posts, they might get wild and stretch believability really far, but they're fun and thoughtful.

Also sometimes they make me think, and a small piece of one of his posts on the second page really made my eyes open, things sort of slid into place in my head and started glowing

Mat marrying Elayne. Its so far-fetched, but so plausable. Ever since the beginning its been a given that she is Rands, but it hasn't ever really felt real to me, it was just something convenient and mildly interesting in the plot, but all throughout the series I've been thinking, 'man, Mat thinks too much about his best bud's girl, and wow Elayne shouldn't think that stuff about Mat, she's Rands gal!' Especially in this last book, Brandon put some of those little bits in, between Mat and Elayne.

But now it seems so obvious that when Rands Ta'veren influence is gone, either from him biting it or because the last battle is done and he's no longer needed, there is absolutely no reason Elayne would feel so much love for him, he just needed Andor securely in his pocket, and theres literally no other way he could have that without the undying love of their queen, Andor doesn't back down from threats, and wouldn't just jump on the 'oh but the prophesies say..' bandwagon, and it would've probably messed up Rands don't be mean to girls thing anyways.

But all of Mat and Elaynes interactions seem highly suspect to me now, and plotwise it could keep the seanchan problem under better contol. I wish I had some examples from the text to use here but I don't have the time to go searching, so this is all from memory. I'm sure you guys can find some to back me up or shoot me down :)

I might have to eat my foot on this one, but I had one of those thought avalanches where everything fits, like the end of really good mysteries, so I felt like sharing, lol. Also sorry I'm off topic for this thread, I haven't even read page 3, just jumped to reply while my brain was buzzing

ShadowbaneX
03-13-2011, 10:42 PM
The thing about the levels is that there are degrees within the level. When Egwene says that Bode nearly matches her own potential, that means she's probably on the same level on the 21-point scale, not the level below as one might think.

There probably should be a level between Lanfear and Graendal, though. I'd reasoned that out before, but then I forgot about it. So...

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Cyndane, Alivia, and Talaan
19 - Nynaeve (Graendal and Semirhage)
18 - Moghedien and Mesaana
17 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
16 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
15 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
14 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

Still guessing, though. It could be that the Supergirls are even with Moghedien and Mesaana by now.

IIRC (and this is just from memory, if you know of a specific entry where it's listed I'd like to see if), yes, channeling is done on the 21-level scale, but I believe that there are very few (perhaps even none at all) women that hit the 21 level...that's just Rand & Ishy I believe. Lanfear is at 20, Moggy & Nynaeve are at 16 with the rest of the Forsaken in between.

I think Elayne & Egwene are 15s, Cadsuane is 14 and Moiraine and Leane were 13s before being stilled and Healed.

finnssss
03-13-2011, 11:33 PM
IIRC (and this is just from memory, if you know of a specific entry where it's listed I'd like to see if), yes, channeling is done on the 21-level scale, but I believe that there are very few (perhaps even none at all) women that hit the 21 level...that's just Rand & Ishy I believe. Lanfear is at 20, Moggy & Nynaeve are at 16 with the rest of the Forsaken in between.

I think Elayne & Egwene are 15s, Cadsuane is 14 and Moiraine and Leane were 13s before being stilled and Healed.

Men go higher than 21 actually, only the women stop at 21 and Lanfear is widely believed to be the only woman to reach 21.

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels.

Rahvin571
03-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Finnssss' link is the one I always go to when thinking about channeler strengths. It's very comprehensive.

Terez
03-14-2011, 05:15 PM
Actually, RJ said men were on a separate scale altogether, with something like a 5-level gap between the top women and the top men. And it's pretty widely believed that Sharina will match Lanfear when she reaches her full potential.

Linda's list has some conjecture in it too, so I don't use it as a source. We don't have a lot of hard information about strength comparisons.

fdsaf3
03-16-2011, 04:58 PM
Also, it's important to note that increases in the scale (i.e. 11 to 12 and 19 to 20) do not have the same weight. The scale is exponential: jumping from 19 to 20 is a huge jump in power, whereas the increase from 11 to 12 is more modest. If needed, I can dig through the RJ quotes to dig up the relevant information for this. Or you could just take my word. :)

If I was responsible for getting this conversation sidetracked, I am sorry. I was merely trying to point out that I didn't see a viable scenario where Rand could be gentled considering his raw strength in the Power and what we have seen him do before, let alone his growing affinity for channeling as seen in Towers. That's all I was really trying to say.

Terez
03-16-2011, 06:54 PM
RJ didn't say the scale was logarithmic; he only said that the distribution is on a bell curve, meaning there are fewer people occupying the outside ranks.

Grig
03-17-2011, 12:13 PM
Is there a reason Alivia is being ranked on a tier below Lanfear? Cyndane straight out says that Alivia is stronger than she was pre-*finn as Lanfear, as disbelieving as she is of the fact.

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too

Bold mine. The angreal was in addition to the Alivia > Lanfear comparison. Or has there been an author's note that that portion of WH was written in error?

Terez
03-17-2011, 12:34 PM
The angreal was not in addition (Lanfear has one, and so does Alivia). When Lanfear realized that Alivia's strength was impossible, she realized she must have an angreal. Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.

GonzoTheGreat
03-17-2011, 12:54 PM
Then again, AS might be less inclined to credit a "wilder" like Alivia than they would be a Novice (Accepted? can't remember, and doesn't seem important enough to look up) like Sharina.

Grig
03-17-2011, 03:47 PM
Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.

Are we really crediting what Third Age Aes Sedai think is possible as any sort of WoTverse truth? Cuz Logain was healed, yo.

The comparison also is not very apt since Alivia has not spent time with any of the old Aes Sedai that tend to make these proclamations, aside from Cadsuane who isn't generally the type to go on about what is or isn't possible. Sharina has been with the SAS, with plenty of older AS who are the type to not understand the limits on their (collective) knowledge and capabilities, which is why they say such silly thinks as "as strong as it is possible to be". Lanfear says something similar, but short a *finn request the most obvious explanation is she's used to being the strongest woman and is horribly arrogant.

Terez
03-17-2011, 10:46 PM
*shrug* Believe what you want. The evidence points to Alivia being at least one rung below Lanfear/Sharina.

1Powerslave
03-18-2011, 07:20 AM
The angreal was not in addition (Lanfear has one, and so does Alivia). When Lanfear realized that Alivia's strength was impossible, she realized she must have an angreal. Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too
This passage is problematic cause it has inherit logical flaws. For instance you say that Cyndane realizing Alivia's strength was impossible she thinks she must have an angreal, that goes against the conclusion Cyndane should have made. The obvious conclusion is not that someone has impossible strength, it is that they have an angreal. So that is the conclusion Cyndane should have made right of the bat, not by first jumping to an "impossible" conclusion, reiterating that conclusion in the next sentence before finally coming to a reasonable conclusion.

The sentence "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!" seems to me to be referring to natural born raw strength. It is what is usually meant when using those terms. Also, in light of what we now know, that the *Finns drained Lanfear/Cyndane of her strength before she was rescued, it also appears that it was raw natural born strength that was the meaning in that sentance. She gives a reference to the *Finns and there she lost raw strength, not angreal enhanced strength.

Now, the first sentence "Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock." is what is starting the misleading and logically flawed monologue. How can you detect what raw strength someone has only based on the power of a weaving? Can't be done as far as I know.

Last two sentences goes with what you say the meaning is, "That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too." Which is likely what RJ meant. But that Lanfear would be so daft to say the things above, and so arrogant and daft and used to being the strongest woman alive to think that anything else would be impossible (because of plastic - power enhancing - surgery??), it doesn't make sense.

Terez
03-18-2011, 08:57 AM
She believes that it was impossible to be stronger than she was before the 'Finns (that bit was not under debate so far as I recall) because there is an upper limit to female strength. This is made clear enough with the Sharina passage, not to mention the scale RJ mentioned. Graendal said much the same when speaking of her angreal - that anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

1Powerslave
03-18-2011, 09:57 AM
The Graendal case does lend support by using the same lingo. Sharina and 21-scale isn't that conclusive though. What does Lanfear know of RJ 21-scale? Sharina is as has been said argued by third age Aes Sedai.

Terez
03-18-2011, 10:28 AM
Evidently, there is a way that they can tell what the upper limit is. It may be a simple matter of sensing potential in terms of percentage. There would be no reason for the Aes Sedai to speculate that Sharina will become 'as strong as it is possible to be' if the upper limit wasn't known.

Grig
03-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Evidently, there is a way that they can tell what the upper limit is. It may be a simple matter of sensing potential in terms of percentage. There would be no reason for the Aes Sedai to speculate that Sharina will become 'as strong as it is possible to be' if the upper limit wasn't known.

Unless they are imposing a limit that doesn't exist based on ignorance? Kind of like the one that said that stilling couldn't be healed? Or that channelers cannot be forced into circles?

I can say that there's no possible way a man can lift 2000 lbs unaided. That doesn't make it true. I might believe it is. It might be. But unless I can demonstrate it is somehow a logical contradiction, it is at best a provisional guess until someone comes along that can lift 2000 lbs unaided to disprove it. Same with their upper bound. Unless it's WoG, it's questionable. And what they consider the upper bound might not be the same as what Jordan did, even. And while Third Agers have lucked into some discoveries that AoL AS couldn't have dreamed of, their knowledge of the Power in general seems rather deficient -- they seem an odd source of absolutes on what can or cannot exist or be done with reference to the Power.

Terez
03-18-2011, 12:30 PM
Unless they are imposing a limit that doesn't exist based on ignorance?
Along with the fact that 1) we know there is an upper limit from RJ, and 2) Lanfear knows of the upper limit, Occam's Razor suggests that there is one, and that it's not a secret. I think I already explained sufficiently how this could be possible.

Grig
03-21-2011, 10:41 AM
1) we know there is an upper limit from RJ

I never contested this. I'm asking you how the Third Age AS learned this from RJ, or how we know that their upper limit is congruent with his.

2) Lanfear knows of the upper limit

How do we know this? She thinks people can't be stronger than her. But unless it's phrased much clearer, that was no different than Vegeta crushing his scouter because he sees someone's power level over 8000. Every shounen villain goes off about how nobody can be stronger than them. It doesn't mean that their strength aligns with the actually existing universal upper limit.

Terez
03-21-2011, 12:07 PM
Why assume that Lanfear was merely being arrogant when the idea of an upper limit is corroborated by the Aes Sedai? Again, Occam's Razor suggests that they simply have a way of knowing how strong a woman can be.

Crispin's Crispian
03-24-2011, 11:40 AM
Why assume that Lanfear was merely being arrogant when the idea of an upper limit is corroborated by the Aes Sedai? Again, Occam's Razor suggests that they simply have a way of knowing how strong a woman can be.

The other point I've always made is that Cyndane was right--Alivia did have an angreal. To me, this is pretty strong corroboration that Lanfear was indeed "maxed out."

Rusty Neal
12-01-2011, 12:42 PM
If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a superior position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower.

When I first read this I read it as
"If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a '"Supervisor"' position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower. lol

I see you are knowlegable in history. Now, I need two forms of identification and 3 references.

Rusty Neal
12-01-2011, 12:54 PM
Sorry, first time post. I do not know how to quote others entry's

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2011, 04:24 AM
Sorry, first time post. I do not know how to quote others entry'sThe simplest way is probably just hitting the "quote" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote.

And the Seanchan might find that they've stuffed their entire army into a basement that was blocked off during the Trolloc Wars, if they're just a bit unlucky. That'd be fun, wouldn't it?

Rusty Neal
12-04-2011, 10:21 AM
thanks! i did not see the quote button

codetoast
05-25-2012, 01:22 PM
Who is the guy thats coming in at the end of the visit to T'A'R to look at Callendor. Is it Rand? or Ishameal or Be'lal, or another. Theres a lot of people interested in it and it seems like sylvie is afraid for egwene being seen there.

Personally I think this is of significance:
"Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it exactly--the wall was all of one piece--but it was close enough. A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it."

The shield exists in TAR as well as the waking world. Also its woven with saidar and saidin. Maybe this is the way the seal on the dark ones prison will work. Of course there is too much in this chapter to know for sure what he means but here are some other possibilities:

"she--she offered kisses, and more" -who is the she here, lanfear?

Verin seems to me more aloof going into those kitchens then she originally thought. I dont know if perhaps she was under compulsion.

So many more here to speculate on.

Davian93
05-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Most likely Be'lal based on context.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2012, 03:13 AM
Who is the guy thats coming in at the end of the visit to T'A'R to look at Callendor. Is it Rand? or Ishameal or Be'lal, or another. Theres a lot of people interested in it and it seems like sylvie is afraid for egwene being seen there.
I would guess Be'lal, based on the "Awake or asleep, he wants..." which follows Sylvie's statement that "he's coming to stare at it again".
Of course, that is not quite definitive, so there is still room for uncertainty here. But Be'lal is the only one who could safely approach Callandor in the real world, as any others would be considered intruders. Rand wasn't close to Tear, yet, and Ishamael didn't want to fight Be'lal for a prize neither of them could get anyway at that time.

"she--she offered kisses, and more" -who is the she here, lanfear?
Good question.
I would say that it depends on whether or not the "she" tried to kill Rand. If so, then it wasn't Lanfear, if not, then it probably was.

IvySedai
08-16-2012, 10:39 PM
Early in 2011, Brandon Sanderson posted this on Twitter:

"Wow. TDR 27 has a cool little foreshadowing for the end of AMOL that I'd never noticed before. #wotrr"

At the time, people hottly tried to guess what it was, mostly by finding hidden meanings in Eg´s dreams and weaving theories with them. And then they forgot about it, myself included.

Then, during a reread of TDR I came across something that made me think 'hey, this looks like a foreshadowing'. And I suddenly remembered Brandon´s twit. When I went to check it, bingo, it was the same chapter I was reading. So my guess is simply that Elayne is going to be attacked by a gray man at the end of AMoL. Afterall, the foreshadowing was supposed to be about something little, not a big surprise.

There are 2 lines:

“I have to write to my mother,” Elayne said. When she saw the looks they gave her, her voice became
defensive. “I have already vanished once without her knowing where I was. If I do it again . . . . You do not
know Mother’s temper. She could send Gareth Bryne and the whole army against Tar Valon. Or hunting after
us.”
“You could stay here,” Egwene said.
“No. I will not let you two go alone. And I won’t stay here wondering if the sister teaching me is a
Darkfriend, or if the next Gray Man will come after me.”

and:

“Nynaeve,” Egwene said in a small voice, “I . . . . I don’t want to be alone tonight.” It pained her to make that admission.
“I don’t, either,” Elayne said. “I keep thinking about the Soulless. I do not know why, but they frighten
me even more than the Black Ajah.”

Both quotes are from TDR Ch27. And there is also that angreal that Aviendha thinks will make her undetectable to shadow minions. If Elayne is attacked by a Soulless, she will have need of it.

Comments?

Terez
08-16-2012, 10:54 PM
I just gave that chapter a reread a few weeks ago, and picked out a few more lines and tweeted about them. It's hard to see how a Gray Man can be relevant for Elayne in the end game. She won't be killed by one.

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon
09-07-2012, 03:56 PM
I didn't read every post because Felix's novels on page 2 kind of broke my brain in a tired sort of way. So, apologies if i'm being redundant or rehashing something already resolved.

On the topic of Egwene gentling Rand, I was struck by the wording used in this moment that I just read in TSR, chapter 6:
I will be gentle with him, Elayne, but before I am done, he will know he is free. Whether he wants to be or not. My mother says men are different than us.

It's a totally different context, but we know how picky/tricky RJ could be with the specific language he used.

Kiruna
05-03-2017, 04:05 PM
It is Rand and his impossible pipe, guys. Maybe some of you didn't realize that.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2017, 07:44 AM
It could also be the plant covered hills around what used to be the Pit of Doom, which resembles the plant covered hills that Egwene kept returning to for some reason.