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Lightning
03-04-2011, 04:45 PM
I don't quite know how to ease into this so I'm just gonna say it...

I think Egwene has kidnapped/detained Nynaeve to use her as leverage against Rand.

My reasons...

1. Egwene knows that Nynaeve supports Rand's decision to break the seals from their conversation in T'A'R.

2. Nynaeve basically told Egwene that Rand has asked her to accompany him to SG and that she has promised to go and help him. (the AS testing).

3. Egwene knows how important Nynaeve's support and help is to Rand both as one of the most powerful female channelers and one of the only AS that Rand has any measure of trust for.

4. It goes without saying that at this stage if Rand wants/needs something Egwene will keep it from him. She is willing to use anything and everything at hand to control him and change his mind. And lets face it, she's not exactly shy when it comes to mistreating her friends.

5. Even though most of the world leaders have come to the Fields at Egwene's request they are far from under her control. Most of these leaders have come to hear things out and many have pledged to Rand and it is quite possible that it will take very little persuasion on Rand's part for them to support his decision.
Egwene knows that when the time comes to face Rand she will need every shred of support and credibility that she can get in order to influence the world leaders. She also knows Nynaeve well enough to know that Nynaeve will not sit back and watch the debate, and will argue for Rand. And that will look extremely bad in front of the world's leaders. If Egwene lacks the full support of every AS (at least in appearance) she will lose a lot of ground at the summit/meeting. Even one AS arguing for Rand can tip the scale in his favor.

6. I don't know if this is a reason or an evidence, but in the 'good soup' chapter we are privy to Siuan's thoughts that Nynaeve's loyalties are with Rand more than they are with Egwene or the WT. And she thinks that its good to get her away from him. And well, Siuan and Egwene tend to agree on things. Foreshadowing???

My evidence...

1. Nynaeve basically disappears after the T'A'R battle, which is probably just a few days before the meeting/summit at the fields.

2. There is no mention of Nynaeve in any respect at the Fields even when Perrin or Elayne show up. If I know anything about Nynaeve I know that had she been present at the Fields she would have bee lined for Perrin as soon as he showed up. But...

3. Nynaeve has promised Rand to go to SG with him, and I would imagine that since going back to the WT she has spent every possible moment preparing for that. There is 'NO WAY' that she would choose to sit back in the WT when she has promised him to come to the Fields (in Tear, when she told him that she has to go, right after healing madness) and from there go to SG with him.

4. Egwene's last pov is at the Fields and she basically runs through a list of her possible oppositions and unknown factions. But never once is she concerned about Nynaeve's position. She keeps thinking about Gawyn and the bond and stuff but never a concern for how Nynaeve could wreck things for her.

5. This isn't very concrete but something about Lan's last thoughts about their bond is off. He has already mentioned the change in the feeling of the bond and that he is sure it has switched to Nynaeve (pg. 640). Also the way he mentions the bond again is a bit suspect. First he says that the bond has been giving him strength, i.e its Nynaeve. And then he says that "the bond had changed. The emotions had changed."
Then it goes to a new paragraph and says that "he could 'still' feel Nynaeve." As if something had made him doubt that he should. Also the way he talks about their proximity is odd. "he could feel 'something distant'" as if she was farther from him than she had been in the past. Whereas if Nynaeve was at the Fields she would have been somewhat closer, not so far that he would only have a vague impression of her.

My fears...

I have this awful feeling that Egwene has probably forced Nynaeve to drink a whole bunch of Forkroot and stuffed her in a corner under guard. (If Egwene wants something she doesn't care what she does or to whom. If she wants Nynaeve out -and I believe that she does- then she will make sure that Nynaeve is OUT).

Meanwhile we know that the Seanchan are going to attack the tower at any point now. Well what if they do and they find and collar Nynaeve who has been incapacitated in some way and unable to defend herself. Say she gets taken as a damane will Rand wait around for her to get rescued? Or will he move on with his plans.

We already know that he is considering Aviendha as one to go with him, and we already know that Alivia's role is going to be crucial in the end, and he already trusts and depends on her based on Min's viewing. (Well old Rand did, I have no clue how new Rand feels about Alivia. So far she's been ignored). And now Moiraine is back and we know that she also has a crucial part to play. Will Rand really wait around for Nynaeve if he has other choices?

Please respond and tell me that I'm being completely paranoid. Crush me with overwhelming evidence that says Nynaeve won't spend the Last Battle in a damane kennel, or defending the Seanchan.

Orlphar
03-05-2011, 01:26 AM
As much as I don't like it, it makes sense... only, Rand won't just pick a replacement and move on, he's going to try to save her and die in the process (hopefully successful!). Hmmm... if he does succeed, then Nyn will be able to find him in T'A'R and use that moggy weave to rip him back to their reality.

Though one other thing, against your idea, if Nyn managed to play meek and Egwene thinks she'll keep her promise, I don't see her forkrooting her "just in case"... Siuan might, though.

Juan
03-05-2011, 02:36 AM
Nice job Lightning.

I like the post except for the Lan evidence. She felt "distant" through the bond because if you remember that's actually how bonds work. ;)

Also, things had "changed" because well.. the person changed. Meaning Nynaeve now has the bond. It makes total sense.

As to the logic Egwene might have in keeping her. It's pretty sound.. I doubt it, but you make a good argument. Egwene's definitely arrogant enough to go through with it, however, I think she may try to use Nynaeve or trick her into siding with her through some way or another. Imprisoning her wouldn't ultimately do any good.

1Powerslave
03-05-2011, 05:41 AM
Wonderful speculation there, Lightning. It is backed up with enough evidence to make it seem plausible. I don't think Egwene will stoop this low, but it is definately not impossible.

Spasmodean
03-05-2011, 07:30 AM
It's nicely written argument.

However, there are many sisters out there that did not respond to the summons of Elaida nor allied with the Rebels.

Never mind that the Tower is united now, there are a great many AS floating about that Egwene has no direct control over.

The most important being Cadsuane and Moiraine.

If either of those speaks in favour of Rand's plan how much weight will their words be given?

David Selig
03-05-2011, 10:07 AM
Nice theory. I don't agree, though. Seems too mean and cold-hearted even for Egwene.

Besides, surely Egwene must realise that if she tries to use Nynaeve as a hostage/leverage, Rand will get mad and will be much less likely to do what she wants at Merrilor. She can't even lie now and Rand has enough experience with oath-bound Aes Sedai not to be fooled by some roundabout excuse when he asks "Where's Nynaeve?".

How is it going to look to the other Aes Sedai if Nynaeve is arrested for something she may do in the future? Even Elaida didn't go this far. It also risks alienating the only monarch Egwene can count on as an ally for now - Elayne.

I think Egwene is for now convinced she'd bullied Nynaeve enough and she wont cause problems at Merrilor. She knows Nynaeve wants to go with Rand to Shayol Ghul, but that has to happen at some point no matter if the seals are broken now by Rand.

Strongman
03-05-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't think Nyn carries enough weight politically to be a speaker at the meeting. If I were Eg, I would just tell her to "know your roll & shut your hole......But that's just me....

Rand al'Fain
03-05-2011, 02:14 PM
I don't think Egwene would do that, and it'd make her look like a weak Amyrlin who can't even keep her friends in line without resorting to the same tactics as Elaida.

Even if Nynaeve had been shielded or given forkroot, it's possible she still has the ter'angreal jewelry set, in which case all she'd need to do is shout "BEHIND YOU! A THREE-HEADED MONKEY!" to her guards and escape through a gateway using the Well. Cadsuane's Well holds enough of saidar to open a small gateway, and hers is smaller than Nynaeve's.

I think it's more likely that Nynaeve's gone off to Bashere/Logain/whoever Rand is sending to Lan to inform them of his location and maybe assist with a few gateways.

At this point, I'm not sure what I would put past Egwene. She's even luring in the Wise Ones to come under White Tower rule, the very same ones in fac, that thought her honorale and wouldn't try to do that to them. Hell, I think she may even be contemplating of gentling Rand as a backup plan (not saying she'll succeed, but that she'll try).

Lightning
03-05-2011, 03:09 PM
A lot of what you guys say makes sense but I think there is a way around all of them. Egwene has become enough of a politician (especially with Siuan's guidance) to manuver these difficulties.
She can capture and hold Nynaeve in secret so only a few sisters would know and then just tell Rand that Nynaeve is meeting her obligations to the WT and couldn't come.
Also that was a good point about the well. I've been wondering if a shielded person can channel through a well. But even if they can would Nynaeve go around the tower wearing it? I would think that Egwene would just jump her without warning.
As for political weight, isn't being an AS enough in and of itself? Also if the Borderland Lords are there wouldn't that make a difference?
Anyway I think the key here might be the measure of Egwene's desperation.

Terez
03-05-2011, 03:23 PM
This might quite possibly be the most ridiculous theory I have ever read on Theoryland. And that is saying something.

ETA: No offense. Just saying. If you'll notice, even some regular Egwene-bashers have noted that it's ridiculous. Will Egwene try unbrainwash Nynaeve? Probably. She noted that Nynaeve has been caught up in Rand's ta'verenness and she felt it was her duty to provide a balance to that. It may even be that she is right, and letting the lord of chaos rule without opposition might not be the greatest idea, even now. Moridin's influence has not gone away entirely, and the fact that it appears to have gone away makes it even more dangerous. But the idea that Egwene has 'kidnapped' Nynaeve and has kept her hostage as a bargaining chip is ridiculous.

4Alethinos
03-05-2011, 10:28 PM
I come back after a few months and I see that Terez is still in good form for using hyperbolic attacks on stuff she does not like. I do like the smell of Terez napalm in the morning. :D

I do not find the theory stupid, just somewhat uhlikely. It is certainly true that Mr Sanderson did not show Nynaeve in any latter part of the book.

Most of the arguments center around what people believe Eqwene is capable of doing in her position as head of the WT. I too am not certain that even Egwene could does such a thing to her old wisdom and a woman who is actually stronger than she in the OP.

In these forums, this is a weak argument and one can argue it in many ways on the issue.

Rand wants/needs Nyanaeve to assist him in using Callandor. Therefore, Nynaeve has to be at Shayol Ghul. this will happen irrespective of any stupid thing Eqwene al'Vere may choose to do in her greater blindness compared to Rand. Her instant objection to what Rand intends to do is symbolic of what all of the Amyrlins have done in their dealings with the Dragon Reborn. Stupidity or foolishness seems to have a momentum all its own.

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2011, 04:29 AM
This might quite possibly be the most ridiculous theory I have ever read on Theoryland. And that is saying something.More than my "Mat will marry Moghedien" theory? Admittedly, that one was not serious, but on the other hand: not even Frenzy was willing to try to defend it. Even though I did have a lot of quotes from the books to support it.

I don't think Egwene will do this, not because she herself would be too good to stoop this low, but because she is wily enough to see that she can't get enough AS to support her in it.

Enigma
03-06-2011, 08:00 AM
Fistly I am not 100% sure that Egwene would do this to someone as close to her as Nynaeve but even if she was willing does she have the means?

The WT is very very fragile after its civil war and Elaida running roughtshod over everyone. Egwene has to step very carefully to keep the various factions together and allow time for the wounds to heal.

That means not just ignoring the law book when its convenient. If she simply orders Nynaeve to be arrested or detained how many sisters will start to thinkt that she might not do the same to them if they step out of line or have an independant thought. Next think she is seen as Elaida version 2.0

natasharma
03-07-2011, 03:01 AM
Is this the new Egwene Bashing Thread now...?
It seems everytime one of those threads die down a new one comes along !!

And No, i dont think Egwene will forkroot Nynaeve. Thats just ridiculous

Weiramon
03-07-2011, 03:09 PM
There is no doubt the young Amylyn's loyalty to the Lord Dragon is questionable. There are stories that the night before she was appointed as a figurehead of the White Tower, she was seen consorting with a Black Sister.

And then proceeded to execute those Aes Sedai who were likely the most loyal to the Lord Dragon.

But to the matter at hand, there is even less doubt, from the evidence in the opening post, that this young Wisdom from the Lord Dragon's village has been turned, and is now a Black Sister. No doubt the Wisdom was betrayed at the Black Tower to Logain, who used a circle of 13 to turn her.

Thus the change, and the distant feeling, and her flight. She would likely fear the Lord Dragon would know she is a Friend of the - I mean, a Darkfriend - just by looking at her. Which is of course ridiculous, but who can say what commoners from flyspeck villages will believe?

Should the Lord Dragon encounter any of them - Wisdom, Logain, Malkieri lord - he should have them executed immediately.

Seth Baker
03-07-2011, 04:34 PM
...kay

Rand al'Fain
03-07-2011, 05:08 PM
There is no doubt the young Amylyn's loyalty to the Lord Dragon is questionable. There are stories that the night before she was appointed as a figurehead of the White Tower, she was seen consorting with a Black Sister.

And then proceeded to execute those Aes Sedai who were likely the most loyal to the Lord Dragon.

But to the matter at hand, there is even less doubt, from the evidence in the opening post, that this young Wisdom from the Lord Dragon's village has been turned, and is now a Black Sister. No doubt the Wisdom was betrayed at the Black Tower to Logain, who used a circle of 13 to turn her.

Thus the change, and the distant feeling, and her flight. She would likely fear the Lord Dragon would know she is a Friend of the - I mean, a Darkfriend - just by looking at her. Which is of course ridiculous, but who can say what commoners from flyspeck villages will believe?

Should the Lord Dragon encounter any of them - Wisdom, Logain, Malkieri lord - he should have them executed immediately.
Didn't you piss your pants and run away like a little girl when the Dragon Reborn looked at you in TOM?

Weiramon
03-08-2011, 01:13 PM
The preferred term is "soiled oneself", and while High Lords can of course outpace any little girl, they do not "run away".




They simply advance in another direction.

4Alethinos
03-14-2011, 02:57 PM
Wow, I am amazed that Terez has not napalmed you back to the first book in the series. Why in the world do you think that Logain is a DF? You have zero evidence that Logain could get the requisite number of Shadowmen and turned AS to assist in such an event.

Oh well, it must be fun to tweak the board from time to time. :eek:

Weiramon
03-14-2011, 04:24 PM
Alethinos, Alethinos, Alethinos, Alethinos

Burn my eyes, but Logain set himself up as a false dragon. He worked with the Black Ajah who warned him of Aes Sedai who would capture him. He has undermined Lord Taim and divided the Black Tower. And the evidence is clear that one of the men in his company has been turned by a circle of thirteen.

I wager that the Lord Dragon himself has given thought to throttling bloody Logain Ablar with his own hands.

Terez
03-14-2011, 05:28 PM
Weiramon is a roleplaying sock-puppet account. I take him with a grain of salt.

4Alethinos
03-28-2011, 12:39 AM
Dear Weiramen:

I suppose I must welcome you to the boards as your post indicates a fairly thin understanding of what has passed previously.

Apart from my ad hominem attack, I would ask you why you have happily ignored all of Min's viewings about Logain?

So Logain set himself up as the Dragon Reborn. So did Taim and several others prior to them both. Logain is cooperating with Rand about what to do about the Black Tower leadership and this is a tricky issue when you consider the retinue of sychophants that Taim has in place from the Ashaman.

I suppose it would be possible to gate in 13 Black Ajah, but you cannot gate in the required Shadowmen. Death for them to try.

Apart from no evidence, you have an interesting way of tweaking without significant credibility. BTW, is Terez correct about you? Hmmm?

Terez
03-28-2011, 12:49 AM
Of course I'm right.

Weiramon
03-28-2011, 02:38 AM
Dear 3Alethinos:

Thank you for the warm welcome to the boards. By the light, others have not shown the same grace, tact and courtesy.

As to that trollop that clings to the Lord Dragon, most likely she suspects that Logain still believes himself to be the true Dragon Reborn.

She probably worries that Logain, like Bashere, will turn on the Lord Dragon.

And her worries are well-founded. After being ordered to transfer the bonded Ashamen away from the Black Tower, Logain has ordered them back to the Tower just in time to trapped by something that appears to prevent travelling from that place. Then he disappears, leaving behind an Ashaman that has clearly been turned to the Shadow.

No doubt it will end with that traitor Logain's head on the block, with blue and gold light of a cloudless sky flashing from the headsman's ax as it falls.

Frenzy
03-28-2011, 03:12 AM
Sock puppet... heheh

Gonzo, i'm pretty sure i had a more whacked theory than that, backed up with quotes from the book. i just can't remember what it was. Probably somthing along the lines of prove Taim can't channel saidar or something.

Now to get back to the original post (novel concept), i'm an Egwene fan and i think she's Machiavellian enough these days to yank Nynaeve away from Rand by force. If she thinks it'd benefit the Tower, she'd do it. The forkroot thing is overkill, though. She'd just extract a promise out of Nynaeve. It'd be just as effective, and more emotionally scarring.

Mort
03-28-2011, 08:47 AM
Sure Egwene want to reign Nyneave in, but she's hardly having her under lock and key and forkrooted. Most likely Egwene think Nyneave will see sense just by coming back to the WT. I also don't think Egwene has any thoughts on Nyn somehow swaying her agenda with the leaders of the world. Why would she? Nyn is not a figure in power to sway any world leaders either way, Rand would be so much better suited to do that. Nyn is just an unknown AS against the rest of the WT to them. She might have some leverage to talk some sense with the AS though.

What I would like to see is Nyn standing up and publically support Rand's mission in front of the Hall. Using some of the wisdom and backbone learned from Cadsuane. Could be a really good scene. Why she would even be invited to such a meeting is unclear though :)

Lightning
03-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Now to get back to the original post

THANK YOU!!!!

She'd just extract a promise out of Nynaeve. It'd be just as effective, and more emotionally scarring.

I don't think Egwene can get Nynaeve to make any such promise. To Nynaeve helping Rand is even more important than accompanying Lan to the Blight, and I don't see anything more powerful that Egwene could use to change Nynaeve's mind. Unless she extracted a weird and innocent looking promise that amounted to the same thing.



BTW Terez No offense taken. I realize this theory is a bit out there, you should know I wrote the post hoping to be proved wrong. But it hasn't worked yet.

Lightning
03-28-2011, 11:40 AM
I also don't think Egwene has any thoughts on Nyn somehow swaying her agenda with the leaders of the world.[...] Nyn is just an unknown AS against the rest of the WT to them.


I don't think it would matter who Nynaeve is. Its enough that shes an AS. The only thing that the world leaders would see is an AS facing down Egwene in support of Rand. That in and of itself (the disunity among AS) would be enough to undermine the Amerlyn's position.

...Using some of the wisdom and backbone learned from Cadsuane...


Sorry but I would have to strongly object to that assumption. Cadsuane has no such qualities to impart. She is simply a bully who has all the AS cowed by her reputation alone. Nynaeve is forced to bend neck to her because of Min's viewing and the fact that she is alone while Cadsuane has all these cronies and the alliance of the Wise Ones.

And Nynaeve had plenty of backbone before Cadsuane was even in the picture.

David Selig
03-28-2011, 01:49 PM
A lot of the world leaders on this meeting are people who know Nynaeve and value her opinion highly. Even if we don't count Rand and Egwene, this still leaves Perrin, Elayne, Mat if he arrives in time, even Galad to a degree. And the Borderland rulers would probably listen carefully to the words of the wife of Lan, given his reputation there (her being a powerful Aes Sedai would help too). So she can certainly play important role there.

jacee
03-28-2011, 04:10 PM
I don't think there is anything that Egwene can do to stop Rand. If he wants Nyn he will get her. He is channeling the One Power directly from the LIght itself. He was unafraid of all the AS in the White Tower. Remember he said he told her what he was going to do so she could marshal her arguments. He was having fun. He does not need anyone's approval. If Nyn can't help him, Aviendha and another will. He does have supporters. I would love to see Eggy brought down to earth. Or what ever planet they are on.

Rand al'Fain
03-28-2011, 06:57 PM
I don't think there is anything that Egwene can do to stop Rand. If he wants Nyn he will get her. He is channeling the One Power directly from the LIght itself. He was unafraid of all the AS in the White Tower. Remember he said he told her what he was going to do so she could marshal her arguments. He was having fun. He does not need anyone's approval. If Nyn can't help him, Aviendha and another will. He does have supporters. I would love to see Eggy brought down to earth. Or what ever planet they are on.
I think that is one thing that most everyone on here can agree on.

Mort
03-29-2011, 06:49 AM
I don't think it would matter who Nynaeve is. Its enough that shes an AS. The only thing that the world leaders would see is an AS facing down Egwene in support of Rand. That in and of itself (the disunity among AS) would be enough to undermine the Amerlyn's position.


It is authoriative to be AS, and rulers listen to you. But if one AS says one thing and the rest of the WT says another, if you are going to follow AS advice, would you really go with the one AS? I hardly think so.


Sorry but I would have to strongly object to that assumption. Cadsuane has no such qualities to impart. She is simply a bully who has all the AS cowed by her reputation alone. Nynaeve is forced to bend neck to her because of Min's viewing and the fact that she is alone while Cadsuane has all these cronies and the alliance of the Wise Ones.

And Nynaeve had plenty of backbone before Cadsuane was even in the picture.

Perhaps bad choice of words on my part. But you got to acknowledge that Nyn has grown in Cadsuane's and Rand's company (Rand's words to Nyn in ToM about thinking for herself and not accpeting the words of the WT lightly is probably what seals the deal), becoming more of what she already was deep down.

A lot of the world leaders on this meeting are people who know Nynaeve and value her opinion highly. Even if we don't count Rand and Egwene, this still leaves Perrin, Elayne, Mat if he arrives in time, even Galad to a degree. And the Borderland rulers would probably listen carefully to the words of the wife of Lan, given his reputation there (her being a powerful Aes Sedai would help too). So she can certainly play important role there.

Perhaps she has some influence, but it wouldn't have much use since most rulers are in Rand's camp already. Tear and Illian are likely in Rand's pocket. Through Perrin and Mat (support we surely do not need to question) we have several rulers and armies. Rand sealed the borderlanders to him in ToM. The forces he doesn't have is Andor, Cairhien and the WT. She might be able to sell the idea to Elayne.

I don't think the meeting has ever been about taking a vote and Rand decides later. He'll do what he said he will and anyone who opposes him will just have to deal with it.

I think the most interesting part will be to see if Aviendha will be able to make any changes to the plan from her visions. That and Egwene's reaction to getting the finger from basically all of the rulers of Randland. :)

LewsTherin10
03-29-2011, 09:21 AM
I think a lot of people are not taking into account what will happen if Mat shows up at Merrilor. It will be the first time since Tear?(don't quote me on that)that all 3 ta'veren will be together. I imagine their combined strength will be overwhelming and bend the wills of all gathered to their Pattern. Not to mention Rand's reaction when he sees Moiraine.

Egwene is far to cunning to have to rely on brute tactics with Nynaeve(although she's not cunning enough to realize that she did exactly as Rand wanted by gathering the armies of the world together for him). In the end, Rand will convince enough people that breaking the seals is the right thing to do and Egwene will reluctantly throw her support his way. She'll let Nynaeve go with Rand because it gives her someone she trusts and relies on as part of the most important act in the Last Battle. Nynaeve gives her a strong tie to Rand.

arioch
03-29-2011, 10:44 AM
(although she's not cunning enough to realize that she did exactly as Rand wanted by gathering the armies of the world together for him).

Actually, yes she is.

Lightning
03-29-2011, 07:44 PM
But you got to acknowledge that Nyn has grown in Cadsuane's and Rand's company [...], becoming more of what she already was deep down.



Personally I think that most of Nynaeve's growth is due to Lan's influence on her, even after he leaves. The other factor I think is the great pressure that she is under, with her responsibilities towards Rand, the WT, and Lan pulling her in every direction. She has to dig really deep to keep calm and collected enough to have some measure of control and effectiveness.

Cadsuane simply ignores her, even when it is obvious that Nynaeve has some real valuable information about the Dominion Collar, the forsaken and other stuff (I have a feeling that she might have tried bullying things out of Nynaeve and failed, so she just decided to ignore her. Cadsuane's only weapons against other AS are her strength in the OP and her reputation, and it just so happens that Nynaeve is immune to both). And Rand... well Rand is in no condition to be a positive influence on anybody. At least not until he goes all zen, and he has very little interaction with Nynaeve after that.

In any case I have always felt that Nynaeve is a much more reasonable and enjoyable character when she's away from the childish bickering energy of Elayne and Egwene.

EvilChani
03-30-2011, 09:46 PM
I don't think it would matter who Nynaeve is. Its enough that shes an AS. The only thing that the world leaders would see is an AS facing down Egwene in support of Rand. That in and of itself (the disunity among AS) would be enough to undermine the Amerlyn's position.

I think there's a more important aspect to this particular scenario...

Egwene has come to believe that no one can truly stand against her. If her "enemies" cannot be swayed through her bullying them outright, then she manipulates them into doing what she wants. Just look at her reactions to Darlin (thinking she will have to replace him if he doesn't do what she wants) and, of course, Rand (how she hopes he doesn't "force her hand", implying that she will use the force of the world's armies against him, if need be).

Her obsession with everyone obeying her without question is little more than a sign that she is (or has become, in my opinion) a tyrant. She grows worse by the day, as we see in her thoughts regarding Rand and Darlin, and the Wise Ones as well (when they say she said she wouldn't chain them to the Tower's will and she thinks, no she won't use chains, she'll use ribbons...much like Tylin did when she was raping Mat, no less!). But when you look at her journey to her present position, you needn't look any further than her stay in the Waste to see when she began her path to becoming a tyrant - it began with her bullying and manipulating Nynaeve.

The glee she felt over scaring her supposed friend (sorry, she has proved that she is no friend to Nynaeve) was disturbing. That she was nearly peeing herself in anticipation of having a chance to humiliate and torture Nyn yet again was worse. Personally, I think Nynaeve caving to Egwene's bullying was the worst thing that could've happened to Egwene's character development - it did not make her "strong"; it turned her into a tyrant in the making. Since that escapade, she has been able to coerce, bully, manipulate, and outright terrorize anyone who dares stand against her. She takes people's loyalty for granted and, for those who she knows won't do anything to truly harm her (Siuan, Gawyn, Nynaeve), she demands blind obedience and expects them not to think for themselves - if they dare show independent thought, she scorns them, humiliates them, and treats them like garbage (Gawyn is a douche, but he did not deserve Egwene being such a crapweasel...he should've left her to die).

In many ways, she's a spoiled child. She always gets what she wants. I won't go into how I feel about her supposed "strength and wisdom" when she was "captive" at the Tower, but her path of manipulation and bullying continued without pause. She has yet to come up against someone who cannot be manipulated and will bitch slap her if she tries to bully them. She has yet to be told "NO!" and have the decision followed through on. Even Rand waited for her to agree to allow him to leave in ToM, so he wouldn't "disobey" her or whatever craptastic reason he had (like he owes her a bloody thing?).

So just how big of a slap in the face would it be to have Nynaeve - the very first one Egwene ever got away with bullying and treating like crap - stand up to her in front of a huge crowd? In reality, Egwene has no respect for Nynaeve because she sees Nyn as a broken lapdog (her only reason for bringing her back was to force her to take the test and to beat Nyn down some more, not to actually get advice...that much was obvious when we see how quickly Egwene dismisses anything Nynaeve says that doesn't match exactly with what Egwene wants). In Egwene's eyes, Nyn is nothing more than a fool and someone who can slobber all over her skirts so the world can see how enamored and loyal and obedient everyone is to Egwene the Amyrlin. Even Nyn's defense of Rand is written off as brainwashing - after all, Nyn should realize by now (Egwene's opinion) that Egwene is always right and Rand is always wrong.

If Nyn was to refuse a direct order from Egwene and to stand against her publicly, declaring that Egwene was wrong and that she (Nyn) supports Rand, then it wouldn't be as much of a blow to her standing with the leaders of the world as it would be to her own overblown egotistical opinion that there is no one she is unable to force to her will. In essence, with that one correct action by Nynaeve, Egwene could be forced to come full circle and, perhaps, get it through her thick skull that she cannot - and should not - control everything and everyone to her own ends. Of course, I'm giving her a great deal of credit with this theory, credit she has never shown to be deserving of. Personally, I think she'll be a tyrant until she dies. The Creator help the world.

Zombie Sammael
03-31-2011, 07:15 AM
It is authoriative to be AS, and rulers listen to you. But if one AS says one thing and the rest of the WT says another, if you are going to follow AS advice, would you really go with the one AS? I hardly think so.

No, but if you had always seen the Tower as a united front, its will clear to the rest of the world, how much of an impact would seeing even one AS stand apart and against the Amyrlin's will have upon you? It might be enough to make you side with that one AS against the Tower, and for the frickin' messiah, if you were even slightly inclined to do so.

I agree to some extent with what EvilChani's saying, in that Eg has become too self-assured and may be headed to a fall. I disagree with the popular negative view of Egwene as a character, however. I think she's strong and interesting, and if there is a fall and some manner of Seanchan alliance in the next book, that will be as entertaining. In fact, I've always felt Egwene was the "fourth lead" of the series, and suspect she might be a lower-level ta'veren herself.

arioch
03-31-2011, 09:35 AM
In fact, I've always felt Egwene was the "fourth lead" of the series


There's really no question, in my mind, on this.

LewsTherin10
03-31-2011, 10:33 AM
There's really no question, in my mind, on this.
/signed

Rand al'Fain
03-31-2011, 12:49 PM
No, but if you had always seen the Tower as a united front, its will clear to the rest of the world, how much of an impact would seeing even one AS stand apart and against the Amyrlin's will have upon you? It might be enough to make you side with that one AS against the Tower, and for the frickin' messiah, if you were even slightly inclined to do so.

I agree to some extent with what EvilChani's saying, in that Eg has become too self-assured and may be headed to a fall. I disagree with the popular negative view of Egwene as a character, however. I think she's strong and interesting, and if there is a fall and some manner of Seanchan alliance in the next book, that will be as entertaining. In fact, I've always felt Egwene was the "fourth lead" of the series, and suspect she might be a lower-level ta'veren herself.
Actually, it seems to be mre along the lines that she has become a master manipulator that really only seems to care for "what's good for the tower" (herself) then anything else. Strong willed? Certainly, but she and the other super girls have shown that quality since their first appearance. Elayne is a blonde idiot, but she at least sees her friends as friends and not as something lower then herself, especially in private. Nynaeve has cooled her temper, but even so, she has still retained her caring personality, something that has set her apart from many Aes Sedai as she actually wants what is good for the people around her, not (just, if that) the White Tower. Eggy has shown to be a complete and utter bitch, worse than Rand was when he was going insane. At least Rand had an excuse with being the Dragon Reborn and being affected by the taint in Saiden. Eggy, is quickly becoming a tyrant like Elaida, only she has a few more wits then Elaida ever did.

Zombie Sammael
03-31-2011, 01:31 PM
Actually, it seems to be mre along the lines that she has become a master manipulator that really only seems to care for "what's good for the tower" (herself) then anything else. Strong willed? Certainly, but she and the other super girls have shown that quality since their first appearance. Elayne is a blonde idiot, but she at least sees her friends as friends and not as something lower then herself, especially in private. Nynaeve has cooled her temper, but even so, she has still retained her caring personality, something that has set her apart from many Aes Sedai as she actually wants what is good for the people around her, not (just, if that) the White Tower. Eggy has shown to be a complete and utter bitch, worse than Rand was when he was going insane. At least Rand had an excuse with being the Dragon Reborn and being affected by the taint in Saiden. Eggy, is quickly becoming a tyrant like Elaida, only she has a few more wits then Elaida ever did.

Egwene has a little more responsibility laid upon her than Nynaeve, and less of a supportive environment than Elayne. Egwene's "friends" have always attached themselves to her only for their own convenience and own power; in fact, Siuan Sanche is the best example of this, however loyal she may have become. Playing the Hall of the Tower is something that any Amyrlin who wants to be more than a puppet must do (or any real world political leader). Egwene might trust Siuan now, but they aren't old friends.

But I don't need to defend Egwene. Provide me with an example, cold and hard, of Egwene actually being the manipulative tyrant you claim she is, with someone she truly considers a friend (or even Siuan). Egwene's a good person, but unfortunately she needs people to think she isn't sometimes.

arioch
03-31-2011, 03:47 PM
You see, when Rand has to be cold, hard, manipulative, gets his people killed, brutal, etc., he's just being a manly man and a hero and a badass and everyone cheers.

If Egwene has to do it, she's a bloodthirsty Machiavellian tyrant.

Lightning
03-31-2011, 03:55 PM
Egwene's "friends" have always attached themselves to her only for their own convenience and own power; in fact, Siuan Sanche is the best example of this, however loyal she may have become.

Um...wow. I hardly know what to say to that statement.

Egwene's friends before she 'gained power' risked their lives and freedom to free her from the Seanchan, enduring terrible living conditions and near starvation to do so.

Egwene's friends after she 'gained power' were willing to endure Lelaine and Romanda to help her gain some semblance of autonomy. Siuan and Leane in particular have always risked their position among AS to help secure Egwene's hold on the Amyrlin seat.


Provide me with an example, cold and hard, of Egwene actually being the manipulative tyrant you claim she is, with someone she truly considers a friend (or even Siuan).

I don't think there is a colder or harder example than the way she is treating the Wise Ones. The very women she was dying to please not a year ago, the people who treated her as one of their own, and gave her everything that distinguishes her as an AS, the ones whose friendship she considered to be invaluable. They directly tell her and ask her not to set up the subjugation of the Aiel to the WT, and she smiles right in their faces and plans how to do exactly that.

And I don't know if you can call the way she treats Gawyne, Nynaeve, Perrin, or even Rand as manipulative, but she is certainly very comfortable imposing her will on them (or trying to) using her position as the Amyrlin. Which is by the way the definition of a tyrant.

Lightning
03-31-2011, 04:04 PM
You see, when Rand has to be cold, hard, manipulative, gets his people killed, brutal, etc., he's just being a manly man and a hero and a badass and everyone cheers.

If Egwene has to do it, she's a bloodthirsty Machiavellian tyrant.


I guess you've missed the parts where he is called mad, cold and ruthless, emanating evil, gone off the ledge to the point where there's almost no redemption for him, etc.

And the main difference between Rand and Egwene is that he realizes what he is doing. There are parts of him that cringe at all those actions, and even at the worst of it he tries to pull himself back by keeping Min and Nynaeve close by. "to care since he no longer can".

The problem with Egwene is that she considers everything she does right and justified. She never stops to even consider that she might be wrong or going too far. You can't hear the voice of her conscience. Its completely in sync with her ego.

Cairn
03-31-2011, 04:09 PM
I like your 'evidence' (better than most), but there's frankly no way Egwene would allow forkrooting another Aes Sedai (Black Ajah notwithstanding). It's just not in Egwene's character, and especially not after being collared and forkrooted herself.

Egwene using Nynaeve as a bargaining piece during negotiations might have some merit, but definitely not as a hostage. It would be more of a political maneuver or bluff towards Rand. Maybe some type of veiled threat of no Aes Sedai assisting Rand unless he agrees to certain conditions of a path forward for the Light. Rand would have to agree knowing through memories as Lews Therin that he needs the female channelers. Or, he doesn't cave, attempts to seal the bore without the female channelers and the Wheel goes on as previously.

But definitely no kidnapping of Nynaeve. Egwene might bully her into silence with a slim chance of at worst having her shielded (briefly until Nynaene calms down) if she refuses to cooperate.

arioch
03-31-2011, 04:14 PM
I guess you've missed the parts where he is called mad, cold and ruthless, emanating evil, gone off the ledge to the point where there's almost no redemption for him, etc.


I guess I missed the parts where a vocal minority posts incessantly about how he might be a villain.

Oh wait, no, he's baby Jesus.

Cairn
03-31-2011, 04:33 PM
I don't think there is a colder or harder example than the way she is treating the Wise Ones. The very women she was dying to please not a year ago, the people who treated her as one of their own, and gave her everything that distinguishes her as an AS, the ones whose friendship she considered to be invaluable. They directly tell her and ask her not to set up the subjugation of the Aiel to the WT, and she smiles right in their faces and plans how to do exactly that.

And I don't know if you can call the way she treats Gawyne, Nynaeve, Perrin, or even Rand as manipulative, but she is certainly very comfortable imposing her will on them (or trying to) using her position as the Amyrlin. Which is by the way the definition of a tyrant.

No, no, no. 'Subjugation of the Aiel'???

If Egwene was actually attempting this you'd have a point, but she's not- you're putting a spin on things through colored glasses that hate Egwene.

Is she attempting to tie the Aiel channelers to the White Tower? Absolutely. She feels more Aes Sedai would benefit from the training she got from the Wise Ones- her vision is a mutual relationship. She wants the same thing with the Sea Folk.

I think it was even Egwene that said, "no one subjugates the Aiel", speaking about Rand's relationship to the Aiel with another Aes Sedai. She said that Rand, "gained their respect" and so they follow him. (I want to say this is during her time as a hostage of Elaida in the Tower).

I do not think your example is a good one, because while the Aiel Wise Ones would prefer to remain completely separate from the White Tower, Egwene isn't going to force them- she'll convince them it's best for them too. They learn better channeling techniques, Aes Sedai learn Aiel ways of respect and conduct.

Political? Manipulative? To the core.

But if you think Egwene would 'subjugate' anybody (even the Seanchan) then you've missed a huge piece of her character.

Why did RJ decide it was Egwene that was to be collared, and then held captive in a similar way by her people, the Aes Sedai? It could've just as easily been Elayne or Nynaeve (who both have ruling nations in their future). Those slavery-type moments are defining points for Egwene's character and life, showing her (and us) that Egwene will be the epitome of a strong ruler whose use of 'force' is political and diplomatic and never physically forced obedience. Frankly, of the three, Egwene is far and away the LEAST likely to ever subjugate anybody.

When she's raised to Amyrlin she even tells her own Hall of the Tower they're supposed to be a temper to her authority.

I'm sorry, but I think you're way off base and falling into the trap of pushing evil motives onto a character you simply don't agree with or like.

Rand al'Fain
03-31-2011, 05:15 PM
I like your 'evidence' (better than most), but there's frankly no way Egwene would allow forkrooting another Aes Sedai (Black Ajah notwithstanding). It's just not in Egwene's character, and especially not after being collared and forkrooted herself.Did the scene where she lets Logain go get skipped by you? She had Siuan give the Aes Sedai that were gaurding him Forkroot tea so that he could make his get away.

Is she attempting to tie the Aiel channelers to the White Tower? Absolutely. She feels more Aes Sedai would benefit from the training she got from the Wise Ones- her vision is a mutual relationship. She wants the same thing with the Sea Folk.And her betraying the Wise One's trust (who want as little to do with the WT as possible in the first place) never crosses your mind? "Oh it's good for the Wise Ones because I say it is!"

I do not think your example is a good one, because while the Aiel Wise Ones would prefer to remain completely separate from the White Tower, Egwene isn't going to force them- she'll convince them it's best for them too. They learn better channeling techniques, Aes Sedai learn Aiel ways of respect and conduct.She basically said herself that she is manipulating them into becoming tied/part of the White Tower. As Rand said throughout the series, Eggy has become Aes Sedai through and through. Eggy's only concern is what is good for Eggy. Eggy=White Tower in her mind.

David Selig
03-31-2011, 05:39 PM
I like your 'evidence' (better than most), but there's frankly no way Egwene would allow forkrooting another Aes Sedai (Black Ajah notwithstanding). It's just not in Egwene's character, and especially not after being collared and forkrooted herself.
Where you get this from? Egwene certainly had no problems forcing Nynaeve to drink a vile testing conconction and then summoning two brutes to tear off her clothes and handle her roughly, leaving a few scars, and scaring Nynaeve out of her mind. She even giggled after that and felt no remorse at all. And all that was simply to cover up her lie to the WO. If the stakes are higher, she can go further. Further proof are her actions during Nynaeve's test for the shawl, when she made it really difficult for Nynaeve to gain a minor political advantage.

To clarify - I still think that denying Nynaeve a place at this crucial meeting (after all she had done to help the cause of the Light) and a chance to present again her case for sending help to Lan would be too cruel and cold-hearted even for Egwene. But just imprisoning and giving forkroot to an Aes Sedai is certainly possible with her.

Provide me with an example, cold and hard, of Egwene actually being the manipulative tyrant you claim she is, with someone she truly considers a friend (or even Siuan).
The whole TAR meeting between her and Nynaeve in Ch. 15 of TFOH, which I described above. Calculated cruelty, verbal and more extreme, and using Nynaeves guilt for lying to her, to put herself into an upper position in their relationship and to cover up her lie to the WO.

Lightning
03-31-2011, 06:11 PM
No, no, no. 'Subjugation of the Aiel'???


Correction; control over the Wise Ones who can channel.

Egwene believes that all and any women who can channel, no matter their race, age, or position have to be governed or at lease under the influence of the WT.

nameless
03-31-2011, 06:32 PM
Provide me with an example, cold and hard, of Egwene actually being the manipulative tyrant you claim she is, with someone she truly considers a friend (or even Siuan). Egwene's a good person, but unfortunately she needs people to think she isn't sometimes.
Does Rand count as one of her friends? Because when the Tower investigation into the Black Ajah discovered that some of the Aes Sedai traveling with Rand were Darkfriends, her response was to keep the information secret because publicly acknowledging the existence of the Black Ajah would hurt the Tower's reputation.

Plenty of other characters are just as Machiavellian as Egwene, Rand included. The difference is that the others do bad things for the good of the world, and Egwene does bad things for the good of the Tower. Her mindset does not allow her to consider the possibility that the good of the Tower and the good of the world might be two different things.

Marie Curie 7
03-31-2011, 08:13 PM
In fact, I've always felt Egwene was the "fourth lead" of the series, and suspect she might be a lower-level ta'veren herself.

Egwene is not ta'veren. For one thing, RJ said that none of the major female characters is ta'veren:

RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

For ben, of course women can be ta'veren. None of the major female characters in the books is ta'veren, though. The Wheel doesn't cast ta'veren around indiscriminately. There has to be a specific reason or need. (I tossed in the "major" just to leave you something to argue about.)

For another thing, if Egwene was ta'veren, Siuan would have seen it since she has a Talent of seeing ta'veren. So did Nicola for that matter, before she was killed off.

As for the rest of the thread, here we go again... :rolleyes:

Zombie Sammael
04-01-2011, 09:14 AM
Marie 7 - unfortunately I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of everything RJ and BS have ever said in interview. There's no evidence from the books suggesting Eg is ta'veren, of course, but she is a person who has risen swiftly to a position of leadership and she appears to have some degree of immunity to Rand's ta'veren effect, so I hope I can be forgiven for comparing her to a ta'veren in many respects, even if she's not one herself.

Lightning - that hardly qualifies as cold, hard, merciless manipulation. She wants the Aiel Wise Ones to have some link to the Tower, she's aware of their concerns, so she's going to try to effect the process gently for the benefit of all. That sounds like the essence of democracy to me, not tyranny.

Lightning
04-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Is Egwene knowingly, deliberately, and unapologetically manipulating the Wise Ones? Yes, and if your answer is no, then I don't think there is anything else to talk about.

And when you say "Provide me with an example, cold and hard," it means give me a solid irrefutable example. Not an example of her coldness.

Also manipulating people into situations that they have explicitly said they wouldn't want to be in is in no way, shape, or form "the essence of democracy". No matter how gently its done.



Wise Ones: Egwene are you sure what we're agreeing to here won't bind us to the WT? We don't want that.
Egwene: Oh yeah! Don't you worry. [thinks to herself: I'll just bind you gently and with care.]


Forgive me if I fail to see the warmth of friendship, or the vote of democracy in that.

Weiramon
04-01-2011, 02:29 PM
For another thing, if Egwene was ta'veren, Siuan would have seen it since she has a Talent of seeing ta'veren. So did Nicola for that matter, before she was killed off.



Seeing ta'veren! That's just some silly thing commoners believe.


Next someone will claim that Logain fellow can see ta'veren, and would have noticed something when that rebel Amyrlin was putting him to the question about the Lord Dragon's amnesty.

Zombie Sammael
04-02-2011, 05:05 AM
Is Egwene knowingly, deliberately, and unapologetically manipulating the Wise Ones? Yes, and if your answer is no, then I don't think there is anything else to talk about.

And when you say "Provide me with an example, cold and hard," it means give me a solid irrefutable example. Not an example of her coldness.

Also manipulating people into situations that they have explicitly said they wouldn't want to be in is in no way, shape, or form "the essence of democracy". No matter how gently its done.

The essence of democratic leadership is making people do things that you want them to do, by making them think it's what they want to do. When someone thinks they want something, that's known as wanting something. Egwene intends to make the Aiel want to side with the Tower. In addition, the Aiel are bothered about being "chained" to the Tower, i.e. in a servile position. There is absolutely no evidence that Egwene has any desire to do this. She may want the Aiel WOs linked to the Tower, but linked doesn't necessarily mean "in servitude to", even where the White Tower is concerned. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that preserving the honour and dignity of the White Tower while allowing it to relate to others in a more equal way than master/servant is one of the main goals Egwene intends to achieve with the Aiel, the Sea Folk, and the Kin.

There's no way Egwene is the tyranical monster you would like her to be. She does allow people to question her rule, in fact setting up the Hall for specifically that purpose, respecting Siuan as an advisor, managing to find a way to treat Elayne and Nynaeve as something approaching equals whilst also acknowledging her station, etc. As far as Gawyn was concerned, she had to be sure with him, because she is more vulnerable to harm he might do her, because she is in love with him. Being in love with someone makes you more vulnerable to them, and especially given that Gawyn has flip-flopped so much in the past, it made sense that she would test him, to make sure both that he could respect her station but also behave as a worthy equal in other ways, before cementing that vulnerability with the Warder bond.

Egwene is clever, ruthless and calculating. She is also still, beneath that, the warm, caring girl who left the Two Rivers. But she is the Amyrlin Seat, the most powerful woman in the world. More often than not she's going to have to let the ruthless ruler make the decisions, not the innkeeper's daughter. But that doesn't mean the innkeeper's daughter isn't still fundamentally who she is, and informs her every decision. It just means she's not always going to be able to show that, because of who she has become.

GonzoTheGreat
04-02-2011, 05:18 AM
She is not the most powerful woman in the world. To give you a hint: she is marath'damane.

At most, she is the leader of one of a number of groups. All of those groups have to work together in a combat situation. The only known way of doing that effectively is by actually agreeing to a chain of command, and specifically to who is at the head of that chain. Logic would seem to say that the Dragon Reborn, as the only one who actually has any chance at all of winning that fight, would be the obvious leader. But there is no indication that Egwene is willing to put her forces under the command of the Dragon. Instead, she expects him to defer to her. (In that, she has the same idea as Fortuona has. But the latter has the excuse of what she thinks is valid prophecy. What is Egwene's excuse?)

I really wonder what she would do if Rand gave her an ultimatum: obey him, serve the DO, or stay out of Tarmon Gai'don. She has said that she won't obey Rand, she has also said that she won't stay out of the Last Battle. Guess which option that leaves?

Zombie Sammael
04-02-2011, 07:49 AM
She is not the most powerful woman in the world. To give you a hint: she is marath'damane.

At most, she is the leader of one of a number of groups. All of those groups have to work together in a combat situation. The only known way of doing that effectively is by actually agreeing to a chain of command, and specifically to who is at the head of that chain. Logic would seem to say that the Dragon Reborn, as the only one who actually has any chance at all of winning that fight, would be the obvious leader. But there is no indication that Egwene is willing to put her forces under the command of the Dragon. Instead, she expects him to defer to her. (In that, she has the same idea as Fortuona has. But the latter has the excuse of what she thinks is valid prophecy. What is Egwene's excuse?)

I really wonder what she would do if Rand gave her an ultimatum: obey him, serve the DO, or stay out of Tarmon Gai'don. She has said that she won't obey Rand, she has also said that she won't stay out of the Last Battle. Guess which option that leaves?

Oh please. It would be completely out of character for Egwene, one of the Light's greatest champions, to suddenly, out of pure spite and stubbornness, go "Hey, you know what Rand, even though I travelled all this way with you, had feelings for you at one point, learned a hell of a lot that's made me who I am today because of following you, simply because you gave me an ultimatum and I didn't like the choices, I'm going over to the Shadow." Not going to happen. Egwene is clever enough to work out that if she does put the Tower under the Dragon's command, whether permanently or for the duration of the Last Battle, she can use the situation to her advantage.

Egwene's problem is going to come because her and Rand have different ideas of what works for the Light, not because she randomly and for little reason decides to go Dark (just recently she was having people executed for exactly that).

Reconsidering my earlier comment, she is maybe the second most powerful woman in the world, next to Fortuona. The notion of marath'damane is clearly an aberration which the Seanchan empire will be forced to give up in order to move forward. I can actually see Rand putting both Egwene and Fortuona in the same position, by saying to Egwene that she has no place in his army if she disagrees with his views on how to fight the shadow, and to Fortuona that she has no place in his army if she's going to use slaves. This would put Egwene and Fortuona in the uncomfortable position of needing one another; Fortuona to have some way to release the Damane that works, and Egwene needing military strength on a scale she's never had, in order to contribute to the Last Battle and force Rand to acknowledge her; of course by then it might already be too late.

I actually think Rand is more capable of doing something like this, which of course ultimately works to his own ends, even in Jesus mode, than Egwene. It wouldn't be pleasant for either woman but it would have the result he wants, which of course is the result that's best for the world.

But we shall see. In any case, the very idea that Egwene will suddenly and randomly go over to the Shadow is completely laughable.

GonzoTheGreat
04-02-2011, 09:40 AM
I don't think that she would turn. But I do think that she will try to fight on her own (with the rest of the Tower behind her, of course). Fortuona may do the same. Then there will be at least five totally separate groups fighting: the well coordinated Shadow forces, Rand's loyalists, the AS, the Seanchan, and anyone who didn't have time or the inclination to pick a side. Such a situation is a recipe for chaos and disaster. It will be the Shadow, not the Light, which can benefit from that.

It reminds me of the beginnings of WWI. Then the Germans knew they could mobilise quickest followed by the French and the Russians a long way behind. So they came up with a simple plan: put a few tens of thousands of troops in the east, send the rest of their army west to defeat the French before they were truly ready, then turn and defeat the Russians. Three things went wrong: the Germans could not progress as fast as they should have through Belgium, the French were a bit faster than expected, and the Russians were a lot quicker than anyone had believed possible. So those 20,000 or so Germans in the east faced 2 million Russians. That would have been a disaster, if not for the fact that the two Russian generals loathed each other, and did not communicate at all. So their armies were too busy watching each other, and suddenly the Germans had the problem of having to deal with over a million prisoners of war.

Now, Trollocs won't be bothered by that; they'll simply eat their prisoners. But apart from that, the situation does seem rather similar.

Lightning
04-02-2011, 12:55 PM
The essence of democratic leadership is making people do things that you want them to do, by making them think it's what they want to do.

WOW!!! What universe are you coming from??? I guess we have a fundamentally different understanding of what democracy is.

If the above is your definition of democracy then sure, Egwene is just as democratic as Henry VIII. Either way who cares what form of government she runs. The issue here is whether or not Egwene is manipulating friends.

And the whole problem here is that the Wise Ones don't want the Amyrlin Seat to be in a position of power over them, and it is clear from Egwene's thoughts that she knows what she is doing to the Wise Ones (or what she is angling towards) is exactly what they don't want. And I don't see any friendship or respect in that.

Rand al'Fain
04-02-2011, 01:07 PM
The essence of democratic leadership is making people do things that you want them to do, by making them think it's what they want to do. When someone thinks they want something, that's known as wanting something. Egwene intends to make the Aiel want to side with the Tower. In addition, the Aiel are bothered about being "chained" to the Tower, i.e. in a servile position. There is absolutely no evidence that Egwene has any desire to do this. She may want the Aiel WOs linked to the Tower, but linked doesn't necessarily mean "in servitude to", even where the White Tower is concerned. In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that preserving the honour and dignity of the White Tower while allowing it to relate to others in a more equal way than master/servant is one of the main goals Egwene intends to achieve with the Aiel, the Sea Folk, and the Kin.Your "definition" is a bit off with democracy, you know. Democracy means each group has an equal say in things. What Eggy is doing, is FAR from that. She is manipulating the Wise Ones and Windfinders and wants them under Tower rule. I don't think the Wise Ones and Windfinders would mind an alliance, but that is NOT what Eggy is wanting. She wants ALL groups of female channelers under the rule of the White Tower, and damned be the last 3000 years of independence from it and far more success at keeping apprentices alive.


There's no way Egwene is the tyranical monster you would like her to be. She does allow people to question her rule, in fact setting up the Hall for specifically that purpose, respecting Siuan as an advisor, managing to find a way to treat Elayne and Nynaeve as something approaching equals whilst also acknowledging her station, etc. As far as Gawyn was concerned, she had to be sure with him, because she is more vulnerable to harm he might do her, because she is in love with him. Being in love with someone makes you more vulnerable to them, and especially given that Gawyn has flip-flopped so much in the past, it made sense that she would test him, to make sure both that he could respect her station but also behave as a worthy equal in other ways, before cementing that vulnerability with the Warder bond.Now you're making excuses. Even in private, she refused to show Gawyn (even after killing 3 bloodknives to rescue her in the process) even the tiniest bit of affection. And look at at Nyn's test to become Aes Sedai and Eggy treats her there and accuses her of becoming corrupted by Rand. Elayne has been to busy with consolidating Andor to have had much time with Eggy for quite awhile.

Egwene is clever, ruthless and calculating. She is also still, beneath that, the warm, caring girl who left the Two Rivers. But she is the Amyrlin Seat, the most powerful woman in the world. More often than not she's going to have to let the ruthless ruler make the decisions, not the innkeeper's daughter. But that doesn't mean the innkeeper's daughter isn't still fundamentally who she is, and informs her every decision. It just means she's not always going to be able to show that, because of who she has become.
She hasn't been the girl from Emond's Field since her first stint to the WT. That shows when she doesn't help Rand when he wanted the support of the Salidar Aes Sedai, and made it plain as day. Rand and Mat have both thought to themselves that she has become Aes Sedai, in a sad way at that. And this was BEFORE she was put up as Amyrlin. Since then, if people don't bow and scrape to her, she calls them corrupted by Rand (Nynaeve), tries to manipulate them into becoming a part of the WT (WOs and Windfinders), or thinks about brow-beating them into submission (Aes Sedai whom she had swear oaths to her).

GonzoTheGreat
04-03-2011, 03:57 AM
Let me put it simple: I would not want someone like Egwene as a friend.

Zombie Sammael
04-03-2011, 05:59 AM
I didn't say Egwene was running a democracy. I said she had a democratic leadership style. Go read a few business books on leadership styles, and you'll see what I mean. It is essentially a practice of manipulating people.

Nynaeve is potentially one of Egwene's strongest allies. She has close ties to the Dragon Reborn and the King of Malkier, is incredibly strong in the power, and (once tested) will be very well-respected amongst Aes Sedai regardless, for the innovations she has made with the art of healing. On top of it all, she's from the same village as Egwene, but being from a different Ajah to Egwene's most fervent supporters, can inspire unity. Unfortunately, the fact that Nynaeve is an old friend of Egwene's places Egwene in a difficult position. One one hand, she needs this person to pass and succeed in the test. On the other, she can't afford to be soft on her because if she is and it's noticed all of the potential advantages evaporate. But Egwene knows Nynaeve. She knows she can cope no matter what she throws at her. So, even knowing it might damage their friendship, she throws everything and the kitchen sink at her, not just for her own advantage but because it'll be best for both in the long run.

You can keep throwing examples of Egwene apparently being a heartless witch about all day, but the truth is, all of those are explained within the text by the position she finds herself in. Egwene mirrors Rand in that she, too, must be hard. But she's a good mirror to him from a literary point of view because unlike Rand she's not getting any magical revelation on top of Dragonmount. Her path will be just as fraught, but at the end, she will still be who she is: a good person, in a position of incredible responsibility.

Gonzo, I wonder which Wheel of Time character you would like as a friend. Rand, perhaps, who is likely insane, and like to turn on you in an instant? Perrin, who repeatedly refuses responsibility? Nynaeve, with her ferocious temper and stubbornness? Or perhaps the cryptic Moiraine? The only WOT main character I can think of who would make a good friend would be Mat. But my point is that every single character in the books has a whole laundry list of character defects. It doesn't seem to make anyone else any less of a hero.

GonzoTheGreat
04-03-2011, 06:43 AM
They have defects, as do most people (apart from me, obviously).
But Perrin does not decide in a conflict between a female friend of his and a random male that the man has to be right, because of his gender. Egwene did the reverse a fair number of times, when she sided with various females against Rand without knowing any of the facts. (Or when she did know the facts well enough, as when she berated him about how he treated Elaida's embassy.)
Rand does not turn on a friend merely to cover up the fact that he himself made a mistake.
Moiraine actually acknowledges that Mat has impressive skills as a general, when she finds out about that. Egwene decides to dismiss all that, because she prefers to think of him as a no good scoundrel.
Nynaeve is basically ferocious against anyone, and thus fair (though mayhap not always entirely pleasant company). Nynaeve tries to treat people as they deserve. Egwene gives women the benefit of the doubt, especially whenever they have a conflict with a man.

Heck, even though there are a lot of similarities between the two, I think that it would still be better to have Mierin as a friend than Egwene. Padan Fain would be worse, though, so Egwene is not (yet) at the bottom of the pile.

Zombie Sammael
04-03-2011, 07:46 AM
Gonzo - those examples you just cited were all borne from Egwene's loyalty to the Tower. Are you criticising Egwene for being loyal, now? ;)

David Selig
04-03-2011, 08:36 AM
I don't see how this is even debatable. Egwene is clearly the worst friend among all main WoT Lightside characters. She's perfectly fine with hurting her friends for her own selfish goals. She giggled when she browbeat and physically abused Nynaeve in TAR to keep her lie to the WO hidden, and , of course, never even considered apologising for that. She didn't hesitate to risk Nynaeve's life by presenting the toughest challenges in the test for the shawl just to gain a minor political advantage. She was really mad at Siuan for the rescue expedition in TGS, despite the fact that she basically owned her whole political career to her and that Siuan had a perfectly good reason to organise the rescue mission given what she knew at the time.

Egwene's perfectly OK with exploiting Mat's principles and manipulating him into going to Ebou Dar. Speaking of Mat, she's never even given a though of thanking him for coming to save her from the dungeons of the Stone. About Rand, she has such a high opinion of him that at one point she thought ACOS, Ch. 9

Egwene did not entirely trust Alanna. The woman did extremely odd things at times, maybe impetuously and maybe with some deeper motive. Egwene would not put it past her to find a way into Rand’s bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her.

What a show of trust to a guy who was your first love interest and is supposedly still a close friend, not to mention in love with your best friend...:rolleyes:

Those are just a few examples of many why I wouldn't want someone like Egwene as a friend.

Zombie Sammael
04-03-2011, 09:00 AM
Actually, no. You're all right; you've convinced me now. Egwene is a HORRIBLE person. Frankly I'm surprised she hasn't turned to the Shadow already, she's that evil, mean, selfish, spiteful and corrupt.

GonzoTheGreat
04-03-2011, 09:39 AM
Gonzo - those examples you just cited were all borne from Egwene's loyalty to the Tower. Are you criticising Egwene for being loyal, now? ;)I am critizing her for her priorities in loyalty.

Her loyalty to the Tower had nothing at all to do with her assumption that Rand was to blame when Aviendha became upset, for instance.
Her loyalty to the Tower does not explain why she turned on Nynaeve in order to cover up the fact that she was lying to the Wise Ones.
She is more loyal to the Tower than to a childhood friend who is also the Dragon Reborn. Yet in that situation, the official Tower representatives were actually her enemies. Being more loyal to your enemies than to your friend (who happens to be the living champion of the Light too) is not admirable.
Her loyalty to the Tower has nothing to do with her dismissal of Mat's abilities and accomplishments. To the contrary, I would say: recognising that Mat is a very competent general when he shows up on her doorstep with an army at his back would be more beneficial to the Tower than making a mistake because of her prejudice. The only reason why it worked out is that Mat is a lot better than she gave him credit for.

Lightning
04-03-2011, 12:22 PM
At this point I don't think that there is any thing that anyone can say to change anyones mind. Zombie it seems to me that you have found a way to justify every one of Egwenes actions and despite evidence that to me seem quite solid and irrefutable stubbornly stand by them . I must say you are a worthy ally for Egwene, since you both seem to be so much alike.

I find that I don't like Egwene. You find that you do. Hallelujah and praise be to the Creator for giving us these books and characters, for our lives would surely have not been as exciting without them.


Clarification: just cause I said I don't like Egwene and then said Zombie is like her doesn't meant I don't like Zombie. Zombie is frustrating but if I didn't like you I'd just say it outright not in a convoluted veiled way.

Rand al'Fain
04-03-2011, 01:13 PM
I didn't say Egwene was running a democracy. I said she had a democratic leadership style. Go read a few business books on leadership styles, and you'll see what I mean. It is essentially a practice of manipulating people.So you at least admit she is manipulating them. A start I suppose.

Nynaeve is potentially one of Egwene's strongest allies. She has close ties to the Dragon Reborn and the King of Malkier, is incredibly strong in the power, and (once tested) will be very well-respected amongst Aes Sedai regardless, for the innovations she has made with the art of healing. On top of it all, she's from the same village as Egwene, but being from a different Ajah to Egwene's most fervent supporters, can inspire unity. Unfortunately, the fact that Nynaeve is an old friend of Egwene's places Egwene in a difficult position. One one hand, she needs this person to pass and succeed in the test. On the other, she can't afford to be soft on her because if she is and it's noticed all of the potential advantages evaporate. But Egwene knows Nynaeve. She knows she can cope no matter what she throws at her. So, even knowing it might damage their friendship, she throws everything and the kitchen sink at her, not just for her own advantage but because it'll be best for both in the long run.
Nyn already was one of her strongest allies without having to be beaten down. She proved that when Eggy first became Amyrlin. Not to mention, Nyn thought of Eggy as a friend, despite all the crap that Eggy was putting her through. Just that Nyn was more concerned about actually helping people than consolidating power for the White Tower, which is what Aes Sedai means, "Servants to all."

You can keep throwing examples of Egwene apparently being a heartless witch about all day, but the truth is, all of those are explained within the text by the position she finds herself in. Egwene mirrors Rand in that she, too, must be hard. But she's a good mirror to him from a literary point of view because unlike Rand she's not getting any magical revelation on top of Dragonmount. Her path will be just as fraught, but at the end, she will still be who she is: a good person, in a position of incredible responsibility.
If I was Rand, I would have taken that as an insult. Even though Rand was using people and manipulating (half of which seemed to want him dead anyways), he at least hated himself for it, especially concerning his friends. Time after time he stated that he hated doing it in his POVs. Eggy never gave it a second thought, unless she was doubting one of her friends' abilities for whatever task she set for them.

The last part was aimed at Gonzo, so I left it out.

Zombie Sammael
04-03-2011, 04:39 PM
Rand al'Fain - the difference between Rand and Egwene isn't so much in whether they are or are not manipulating, but how and for what reason. For the sake of clarity, I'm referring to pre-Jesusisation Rand here. The Forsaken are also manipulative, but in a selfish, hateful way which concerns itself not at all with how the person being manipulated might feel. You can use someone without it necessarily being a negative for them. Take the Aiel for example; they might not want, right now, to be tied to the White Tower, but nonetheless, such a tie could be good both for them and for the Tower. Egwene recognises this, and so she works to create such a tie. Yes, this is manipulative, but her ends involve the good of both parties, something which Egwene, thanks to being both Tower and Aiel trained, is uniquely placed to see. This is true of every other example I can think of Egwene (or Elayne, for that matter, but that's a whole can of worms) behaving in a manipulative fashion; cliche as it is, it's for their own good as much as hers.

Pre-TGS Rand and the Forsaken don't give a jot about this. They just want they want and they'll use you to get it. Rand directly thinks this at one point about Mat and Perrin, how he'll have to use them. Yes, he hates himself for it, but the difference is he does it anyway. If Egwene were in a position where she found it necessary to manipulate Perrin (for example) she would make sure there were some trade-off.

But as I say, she's so thoroughly evil that I can hardly believe she isn't working for the Shadow already. One wonders, of course, what Weiramon thinks of her.

Zombie Sammael
04-03-2011, 04:46 PM
Oh, btw, Lightning, I really have no hard feelings when debating stuff with people on Theoryland. I do like Egwene as a character and I feel a little like there is some prejudice towards her because bashing her is a popular view around here, and also because it's something I see a lot around female characters with her sort of role. Politically powerful, cunning, manipulative male with the best intentions is clever; the same female is a bitch, no matter what her intentions. But that's a whole other debate. I come here to have these sort of debates because they're fun, and trust me, I've been involved in a lot worse than this minor scuffle in my time.

Hmmm. I sure do sound like someone with more than 50 posts to my name. Wonder why that is?

Lightning
04-03-2011, 05:22 PM
I come here to have these sort of debates because they're fun, and trust me, I've been involved in a lot worse than this minor scuffle in my time.

So you keep arguing just for arguments' sake? No intention whatsoever to actually consider what others say, or what evidence they present? You just read their arguments and come up with something, anything to counter? No re-evaluation of your own position?

Cause this whole time I couldn't figure out what your thinking was, you go from 'prove that she would manipulate friends' to 'gosh darn it she's so kind to be manipulating her friends' to 'well Rand manipulates his friends and you don't hate him' all without skipping a beat.

I guess I should be satisfied with this progress though (if it can be called that). At least you admit that she manipulates her friends with the intention of putting them in a position they don't wish to be in. To you that's kindness and you like her for it. To me that's the opposite of friendship or kindness, and is one more reason why I don't like her. Would this ultimately be in favor of the WOs and the Aiel? Well I don't know, and frankly that was never the issue here.

BTW, I don't know how 'business books on leadership styles' define democracy, but I think you should consider reading up on how Political books and the dictionary define the term and concept of Democracy. I find your ideas on how a Democracy and a Democratic leader function the most disturbing thing during this whole debate.

Rand al'Fain
04-03-2011, 07:04 PM
Rand al'Fain - the difference between Rand and Egwene isn't so much in whether they are or are not manipulating, but how and for what reason. For the sake of clarity, I'm referring to pre-Jesusisation Rand here. So am I. Rand, WAY before his epiphany HATES that he uses and manipulates people.
The Forsaken are also manipulative, but in a selfish, hateful way which concerns itself not at all with how the person being manipulated might feel. You can use someone without it necessarily being a negative for them. Yes, but such is not the case.
Take the Aiel for example; they might not want, right now, to be tied to the White Tower, but nonetheless, such a tie could be good both for them and for the Tower.Most Aes Sedai view the Aiel as savages (the ones not apprenticed or the super girls being about the only exceptions). And in many POVs the Aes Sedai ALWAYS say the the WOs that can channel should be going to the WT, and damned be how well off the WOs have been for the last 3000 years. Eggy is becoming more and more in line with the line of thinking that ALL channeling women MUST go to the White Tower.
Egwene recognises this, and so she works to create such a tie. Yes, this is manipulative, but her ends involve the good of both parties, something which Egwene, thanks to being both Tower and Aiel trained, is uniquely placed to see.If it were an alliance it would be beneficial to all parties, but that is not what Eggy is doing. She wants to bring the WOs and Windfinders under WT rule, and that is the last thing they want. Plus, they have done fairly well for themselves the last 3 millenia, not to mention NOT missing any women who can channel.
This is true of every other example I can think of Egwene (or Elayne, for that matter, but that's a whole can of worms) behaving in a manipulative fashion; cliche as it is, it's for their own good as much as hers.It's phrases like this that make me see a very "Big Brother"-esque side here. Not exactly a good thing.

Pre-TGS Rand and the Forsaken don't give a jot about this. They just want they want and they'll use you to get it. Rand directly thinks this at one point about Mat and Perrin, how he'll have to use them. Yes, he hates himself for it, but the difference is he does it anyway.
He does it because he believes he must. There was no book on how to be the DR, or any past examples of how he could go about saving the world. Plus the madness didn't help anything. Eggy though, has no qualms about doing the exact same things. Most for Rand are spur of the moment forced into kinds of situations. Eggy plans it.
If Egwene were in a position where she found it necessary to manipulate Perrin (for example) she would make sure there were some trade-off.
Uhm, no. Look at the deal with Mat. She basically forced him into going to Ebou Dar by manipulating his promise to bring Elayne to Andor to take her spot on the Lion Throne. Maybe if the friend was a woman. And Aes Sedai. And had sworn her allegiance to her, she might throw in something for them. Otherwise, going off of many past actions, that is not going to happen.

But as I say, she's so thoroughly evil that I can hardly believe she isn't working for the Shadow already. One wonders, of course, what Weiramon thinks of her.Never said she was evil, just a manipulative bitch. Even to Gawyn.

Zombie Sammael
04-04-2011, 03:42 AM
I'm retiring from this before it becomes a flame war. Lightning, I didn't say I came only to argue for argument's sake and not listen to others; that would be pointless. Other perspectives are interesting to me, and this has at least opened my eyes to a different way of viewing the character (in fact, I've noticed she's a bit of a bitch even early on in TEOTW), but the fact of the matter is, when you're having a debate with someone you can't really expect them to suddenly become convinced of your way of thinking.

There are a million other things I could and should say about Egwene, democratic leadership styles, and the merits of various other characters as compared to one another, but I feel this thread is about to get personal and has gone way off topic anyway, so I'm going to leave it at that - for this thread. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
04-04-2011, 03:50 AM
Pre-TGS Rand and the Forsaken don't give a jot about this. They just want they want and they'll use you to get it. Rand directly thinks this at one point about Mat and Perrin, how he'll have to use them. Yes, he hates himself for it, but the difference is he does it anyway.He does it because he knows that it is actually necessary in order to save the world from the DO. Egwene, when she does something like this, does it to further the cause of the White Tower, even if this interferes directly with the plans that Rand has.
Case in point: Rand wanted Mat to help him defeat Sammael. Mat was willing (though not all that eager) to help. Then Rand send Mat on a side trip to contact Egwene and her AS. Egwene decided on her own that separating Mat from his army, and disrupting all Rand's plans, was what should happen, so she did that.

If Egwene were in a position where she found it necessary to manipulate Perrin (for example) she would make sure there were some trade-off.And what trade off did she make sure Mat got when this exact thing happened with him?



But as I say, she's so thoroughly evil that I can hardly believe she isn't working for the Shadow already.She is not evil. Just too focused on her own narrow interests to give a thought to the fate of the world. Exactly like many of those stupid nobles who are plotting for more power, without caring whether or not that'll doom the whole world three months later.

Oh, and I've decided to give a bit of commentary on the following, which I copied from a previous post of yours:
The essence of democratic leadership is making people do things that you want them to do, by making them think it's what they want to do.That is not quite true, I think. Another very important part of the essence of democracy is openness and honesty.

With democracy, the idea is that everyone together can decide what they think is best. That requires that everyone actually has the relevant information. By keeping things secret you are frustrating the democratic process, thereby making it impossible for the others to actually make an informed decision.

What Egwene did was not an example of democracy. Instead, she was tricking people who trusted her into signing her a blank cheque. She would get the power, they would find out later how they'd been duped.

Another example of that was the WMD claims regarding the Iraq war, where lots of Western government failed to inform their parliaments about the enormous level of doubt on the validity of those claims. Those parliaments should not have been stupid enough to think their governments were trustworthy, I admit. So they should have checked a lot better what the actual truth was. But in the same way, the WOs should not trust Egwene, because she can not be trusted.

Lightning
04-04-2011, 12:10 PM
Lightning, I didn't say I came only to argue for argument's sake and not listen to others; that would be pointless. Other perspectives are interesting to me, and this has at least opened my eyes to a different way of viewing the character (in fact, I've noticed she's a bit of a bitch even early on in TEOTW), but the fact of the matter is, when you're having a debate with someone you can't really expect them to suddenly become convinced of your way of thinking.

Cheers mate! Just wondered for a minute there if you were listening as well as sharing your view. Glad to see we've both gotten something out of this. And I agree, this thread has gone way off topic.

jacee
04-04-2011, 03:35 PM
I sum Egwene up this way: Rand's friends call him Rand, not my Lord Dragon. Elayne's friends call her Elayne, not Your Majesty. Mat and Perrin, the same. Egwene's friends, when alone with her must, at her insistance, call her Mother. Will she make that poor sap who she is going to marry call her Mother when they have sex?

Juan
04-04-2011, 04:39 PM
Will she make that poor sap who she is going to marry call her Mother when they have sex?

Lmao.

Zombie Sammael
04-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Will she make that poor sap who she is going to marry call her Mother when they have sex?

I know I bowed out of this thread, but...

Oh, right, I see, so now we're going to criticise Egwene for her sexual preferences, as well. Don't see anyone doing that to Mat. DOUBLE-STANDARDS!!!!
;)

Weiramon
04-04-2011, 11:47 PM
Actually, no. You're all right; you've convinced me now. Egwene is a HORRIBLE person. Frankly I'm surprised she hasn't turned to the Shadow already, she's that evil, mean, selfish, spiteful and corrupt.

Aye, turned to the Shadow. Best she be stilled and executed.

It would not be a suprise if some Dreamer had foreseen her beheading with a sword.

Rand al'Fain
04-05-2011, 01:26 AM
Aye, turned to the Shadow. Best she be stilled and executed.

It would not be a suprise if some Dreamer had foreseen her beheading with a sword.

Hey Weiramon, I just got news that the Dragon Reborn is putting you under the command of an Illianer commoner foot soldier.

Weiramon
04-05-2011, 11:06 PM
Burn my eyes, better to be sent charging into the Pit of Doom on the back of a flaming goat than serve under a swamp-dwelling commoner who wouldn't know the front end of a horse from its. . . rear!

Rand al'Fain
04-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Burn my eyes, better to be sent charging into the Pit of Doom on the back of a flaming goat than serve under a swamp-dwelling commoner who wouldn't know the front end of a horse from its. . . rear!

You've been transferred to being a pikemen as well. So, no more horses except when facing a charge.

Casabamelon
04-06-2011, 08:52 AM
Feel the need to comment on the confusion between Democracy and Democratic Leader.

The term Democratic Leader doesn't refer to the fact that the leader is acting in a Democratic way, but instead refers to the fact that they are the leader of a Democracy, and the only way to get a Democracy to do what you want them to do is to convince them that is the best course of action (as opposed to a dictator {benevolent or otherwise} who can direct via force). This is where the manipulation comes in, because your actions are specifically to change the opinion of the governed, even if it's done with good intentions, openness, and honesty, you're still manipulating people to come around to your point-of-view.

GonzoTheGreat
04-06-2011, 11:24 AM
But if you do the manipulating by telling lies, so that you can eventually end up as their dictator (which the Amyrlin Seat is), is it then really as democratic as you think?

Lightning
04-06-2011, 03:22 PM
The key here is the "governed" part of the whole deal. The Wise Ones are not part of the WT's organization, and they wish to never become part of it. So however they are treated [democracy or dictatorship] is irrelevant, because they are not subjects to the WT, they see themselves as a separate entity.

For a person to become a democratic leader they will need to be voted/chosen to fill that position, and after that what they do can include manipulation since that's just part of politics.

But in the current situation two friends are dealing with each other, and in that particular dynamic manipulation should have no place. The party that is dishonest and manipulating in a friendship is the one betraying the friendship.

Zombie Sammael
04-06-2011, 06:20 PM
Ugh. This is the problem with saying you're not going to post in a thread and then still checking it. Lesson learned.

Lightning, I think you're blowing it up out of proportion a little bit. All Egwene has done so far, at very worst, is think about manipulating the Aiel to tie them to the Tower, not actually take any steps to maneuver them to do so. Her "ribbons" could literally be, "So how about signing up to train WT Novices as Wise One's then? I promise to bake you an ENORMOUS cake!" All she's suggested is that there will be soft ties between the WT and the Aiel... and to be honest, the Aiel would be daft not to take it.

As I said before, re-reading TEOTW after reading this thread I can already point out two or three examples of Egwene being a huge bitch, and I'm only halfway through, but I'm afraid this is a bad example, in my opinion.

Lightning
04-06-2011, 09:27 PM
Sorry if I'm getting a little melodramatic. I've just always been very big on 'intentions', and to me it seems like Egwene is just getting started with the WO, and laying the groundwork for her plans. Although it might all turn out to be a friendly mutual thing in the end. Who knows, we might never find out.