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New Futurist Man
03-04-2011, 06:44 PM
“He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand — and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding…
He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin’s memories — but Rand’s own.”
The Gathering Storm, chp.TEARS FROM STEEL, [PAGE59]


I'm at a loss as to where this sword came from.

A sword “centuries old” does definitively discount any mix up of Rand and Lews Therin’s memories, considering Lews Therin has been a couple thousand years dead.
So then who's sword was it!?
Guaire Amalasan’s? Hawkwing’s?
Is it possible Rand recognises it from the battle at Falme when Hawkwing wore it at his side? But if so, why would he feel constrained about who he told - including Min? She, like most people in his immediate circle, know the Horn was blown - so why the mystery?

The notion it’s the sword of a former False Dragon is also contentious.
Firstly: this is before Rand’s mystical insight upon Dragonmount, so before he realised his deeper link with humanity and why he fights the Dark One etc.; Secondly: the notion a sword wielded by a False Dragon should have any sentimental value to the true Dragon is skewed on many levels, and not the least of which because a False Dragon should have no link via memory to the true Dragon. On this point the only explanation is that False Dragons, just like the true Dragon, serve the Pattern in some sense, a number of them have been ta’veren after all, meaning they work the Will of the Pattern just as much as the Heroes of the Horn, thus going some of the way to explaining the link.

But that still doesn’t explain why Rand ‘recognized’ the weapon…or does it?

Kimon
03-04-2011, 07:08 PM
I'm at a loss as to where this sword came from.

A sword “centuries old” does definitively discount any mix up of Rand and Lews Therin’s memories, considering Lews Therin has been a couple thousand years dead.
So then who's sword was it!?
Guaire Amalasan’s? Hawkwing’s?
Is it possible Rand recognises it from the battle at Falme when Hawkwing wore it at his side? But if so, why would he feel constrained about who he told - including Min? She, like most people in his immediate circle, know the Horn was blown - so why the mystery?

The notion it’s the sword of a former False Dragon is also contentious.
Firstly: this is before Rand’s mystical insight upon Dragonmount, so before he realised his deeper link with humanity and why he fights the Dark One etc.; Secondly: the notion a sword wielded by a False Dragon should have any sentimental value to the true Dragon is skewed on many levels, and not the least of which because a False Dragon should have no link via memory to the true Dragon. On this point the only explanation is that False Dragons, just like the true Dragon, serve the Pattern in some sense, a number of them have been ta’veren after all, meaning they work the Will of the Pattern just as much as the Heroes of the Horn, thus going some of the way to explaining the link.

But that still doesn’t explain why Rand ‘recognized’ the weapon…or does it?

Terez has a very thorough walkthrough on this particular item.

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_1010fkbjwmg4&revision=_latest

Terez
03-05-2011, 02:18 PM
Thanks, Kimon. Also, let me know if you have any ideas on the article, NFM.

New Futurist Man
03-21-2011, 02:16 AM
Great article, very informative! So it was found ‘In water, under a statue’, in the Stedding were Hawkwing planned to build his city? Interesting. I tend to believe, and enough of your article backs up the theory, that wielding Justice represents the owner's legitimate sovereignty over the Westlands. It's hardly an accident it should fall into the Dragon's hands at this most auspicious of psychological moments (the Wheel weaves....). Holding Justice thus supersedes a) the kingships and queenships currently exercising control in the Westlands; and b), and more importantly, also supercedes the significance the Seanchan place in, amongst other things, the 'Oath' they exact from Westlanders, which they seem to imagine is a legally-bound article of law or faith or whatever, all of which is underwritten by the notion they're entitled to possession of the Westlands because they descended from Hawkwing's kin. The prophecies may go some of the way - if not the whole way! - to dispelling this in favour of a sovereignty founded on whoever the Pattern chose to put Justice into the hands off.

“Perrin threw himself full length on the ground when he reached the pool and plunged his head in. An instant later he was spluttering from the cold of water that had welled up from the depths of the earth…”
The Eye of the World, Eyes Without Pity
This passage does intimate its not merely some minor little pool that’s formed at the bottom of the valley, but, as the location is far inland, may have been the intended source of drinking water for the planned city, ergo a freshwater lake probably of considerable size. It was the 'Lady beneath the Lake' (one of who's names in mythology had been Nyneve, its worth noting) who was said to have conferred the sword on King Arthur. The Lady of the Lake bears some minor resemblance with Lanfear: she's evidently a variant of a Celtic goddess, of which there are two significant types in this context: one who appears as a harbinger of the heroes death, and one who aids him in his defeat of his enemies. Both are said to appear at twilight, or at a full moon. Lanfear would appear an embodiment of the latter. Specifically: in the past she's taken a keen interest in the propriety of the Dragon's behaviour so that others come to see him as the man of power she wishes him to be, mostly so she can ultimately profit from it. Lanfear, as the Daughter of the Night, is a choice candidate to have a hand ensuring the sword reached Rand, knowing her interest with those aspects of the Dragon's position.

On the topic of Gawyn
Terez: “..Gawyn seems foreshadowed for a traitor's role. If that is true, then a traitor's sword would be appropriate for him. Egwene had a dream that Gawyn would come to a fork in the road. Down one fork, they married, and down the other, not. Down one fork, he lived a long, happy life, and down the other, he died a violent death. She does not know which road leads to which.”

He may well end up with Laman’s sword. But maybe the twist will be his redeeming those tainted branches of his family tree. At this point, however much it pains me to say because of his annoying behaviour, he’s probably the most lethal swordsman in existence, couple this with the Bloodknife rings in his possession should make him a match for almost anyone. Albeit use of the rings will mean his own death.
No doubt Egwene aims to be at the forefront when the hordes of Shadowspawn progress into the interior of the Westlands, and as the Amyrlin’s banner is sure to be a prime target for the dreadlords and Shadowspawn generally, the first indication in a battle were it seems the Amyrlin may be in danger, or gets cornered or cut of, I can see Gawyn don the rings and go down fighting!

Callandor-Excalibur-Justice and the significance of Narishma

Terez: “Perhaps most importantly, there is a great possibility that some of the prophecies thought to refer to*Callandor*actually refer to Justice. One obvious example is a prophecy that Rand thought he figured out before it happened:

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
***into the heart, to hold their hearts.
***Who draws it out shall follow after,
***What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

Rand's certainty on this one is enough to call the issue into question. Aside from that, it's difficult to fit Narishma into this in any way that seems worth mentioning in the prophecies. All of these things are clues that Rand might have misinterpreted it.”

I don’t think that line refers to Justice, nor do I believe Narishma’s significance can be discounted. On the topic of Justice, Rand used a Power-wrought blade to stab Ishamael, with the result that it melted like candlewax. Even a Power-wrought blade is rendered pretty ordinary next to what the Dragon faces, so I don‘t see any advantages in his deploying it against whoever, especially one-handed as he is. If the scabbard possesses magical properties: now that would be interesting. Is there a potential it’s a ter’angreal that can interfere with causality perhaps? In other words a scabbard-version of the dice that roll around the inside of Mat’s head?
I still believe Narishma is bound to Callandor. I’ve said elsewhere that the crystal sword may come into his possession after the Dragon relinquishes it. Narishma, having proved himself when he retrieved Callandor and bonded as he is, would be the obvious candidate for it.
Also: lets not forget Narishma knows the weave for Balefire. Probably the only male channeller in existence with the exception of the Dragon and the remaining male Forsaken; I doubt a Forsaken would teach Taim it. So, even if the Callandor incident is a red herring, this should augment his name in the history books - I’m not sure the passage in tGS when he was shown the weave could be labelled ‘foreshadowing’, but I’m sure effectively that’s what it was - in other words: someone’s gonna cop a bar of balefire from Narishma in some epic scene. Who? I’d put my money on a Forsaken.

Egwene’s dream re “A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.”
A Crown of Swords, Unseen Eyes
I feel must refer to Narishma, the ‘dark young man’ is how Narishma has always being described since LoC. It occurs to me that Egwene has never actually met Narishma, perhaps when she meets with the Dragon at Merrilor she’ll recognize Narishma, who’ll no doubt be at attendance for the Dragon, and tie him to the prophetic dream, which can only refer to the apparent death of the Dragon and Narishma’s taking over use of Callandor and his, in my take, leading the Asha’man against the Demandred-led Seanchans. The ‘funeral pyre’ I take as figurative only. I don’t see Rand dying, I just think it might take a while before he returns from Shayol Ghul, meaning he‘ll be presumed dead which will spark scenes of widespread lamentation as the world realizes it still must face down the Seanchan but without the Dragon. The line “it was important he not die” I read as a pretty explicitly symbolic way of saying that the Westlands must maintain faith that the Dragon is not dead, not with the armies of the Seanchan still to be faced.

Heinz
03-21-2011, 11:44 AM
Not that its the main topic of this discussion, but Laman's sword.. wouldn't it make more sense for Rand to give it to his half-brother Galad, if/when he sees Galad and makes the connection? A meeting I hope to see in AMOL, btw. A stronger family connection, since Galad carries the Damodred family name.

True, Galad recently acquired a heron mark blade by killing Valda. But I don't think he'd turn down a power-wrought heron mark sword previously owned by family.

Terez
03-21-2011, 12:05 PM
Well, it doesn't solve the problem of Gawyn needing a sword. Also, Galad doesn't make a good traitor connection...

GonzoTheGreat
03-21-2011, 12:06 PM
Plus, having the Dragon formally present the sword of a former king of Cairhien to his half brother, who has a stronger claim to Cairhien's throne than Elayne, won't cause any conceivable trouble at all.

Terez
03-21-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm not so sure Galad's claim is stronger, just because he carries a Cairhienin name. He's half-Andoran too, and he was also raised in Andor. He has a bit of age on Elayne, but that's pretty much it.

GonzoTheGreat
03-21-2011, 12:24 PM
That bit of age does help, though. Then there's this:
"I will thank you not to call it history, my Lord Dragon. I was a girl when it happened, but more than a child, and here in the Palace often. One morning, Tigraine simply was not in the Palace, and she was never seen again. Some claimed to see Taringail’s hand in it, but he was half-mad with grief. Taringail Damodred wanted more than anything else in the world to see his daughter Queen of Andor and his son King of Cairhien. He was Cairhienin, Taringail. That marriage was meant to stop the wars with Cairhien, and it did, yet Tigraine vanishing made them think Andor wanted to break the treaty, which led them to scheme the way Cairhienin do, which led to Laman’s Pride. And you of course know where that led," she added dryly. "My father said Gitara Sedai was really at fault."At the very least, that suggests that having Galad get the throne seemed more reasonable than having Elayne ascend the Sun Throne, and it might conceivably even be foreshadowing.

Rand al'Fain
03-21-2011, 01:20 PM
That bit of age does help, though. Then there's this:
At the very least, that suggests that having Galad get the throne seemed more reasonable than having Elayne ascend the Sun Throne, and it might conceivably even be foreshadowing.

But would little miss nose-in-the-air allow her brother (who just so happens to also be in charge of the Whitecloaks, and she an Aes Sedai now) a chance at the Sun Throne?

Heinz
03-21-2011, 01:29 PM
I guess I missed where Laman's sword became a traitor's sword. Laman's sin was oath-breaking a pact with the Aiel, not betraying Cairhien. 'Traitor' is more a term used for someone who turned against their own people/nation, not broke a treaty with another nation. Now, Gawyn using the sword to break his oath to Egwene and stab the Dragon in the heart might tie in oath-breaking very nicely.

And note: I'm more thinking of possibilities here, than trying to state a truth. I do not think there is enough evidence to call it one way or the other. At least I haven't seen enough to solidify it for me yet.

What I might see happening is that Rand realizes who Galad is, perhaps on the FoM, and presenting it to Galad as a hereditary sword. Tying Galad to the Sun Throne is interesting, either as king or steward for Elayne (I think steward more likely, after the long story-line of Rand intending the Sun Throne for Elayne). I know in the past, some have thought about Moiraine due to the family connection. Though here's Galad, also a Damodred. Galad, the Dragon's half-brother. Galad, the presumed future husband of Berelain sur Paendrag, the Dragon's former steward of Cairhien. But again, I'm getting wildly off-topic.

Rand's half-brother receiving the sword just made more sense to me. Elayne's brother receiving it would make its own sense. Gawyn may have wanted to kill Rand, but Rand simply regretted that Gawyn had believed the tales or Rand killing Morgase. He was not angry about it. And Elayne is one of his three loves, so her brother receiving a gift such as that sword wouldn't be entirely crazy. And he is short a storied sword or power-wrought sword.

Still, I just thought it odd that there was apparently no consideration of the connection with Galad. I hope to see the story of this sword mentioned in AMOL, whomever it goes to, and that it is not one of the small plotline details that gets left out.

Theris
03-21-2011, 02:55 PM
Why are people still so adamant that Gawyn is going to do something awful? He doesn't hate Rand anymore - he forgave Rand and moved on, and that was BEFORE he met his mother, alive and well. I don't see why there's such community consensus that Gawyn still hates Rand and wants to kill him.

Even his whole traitor thing - wasn't Min's viewing that he would do one or the other? Is there reason to believe that he didn't already make his choice? And he already DID do his whole traitor bit by leaving the Tower for Egwayne, didn't he?

Grig
03-22-2011, 09:42 AM
Why are people still so adamant that Gawyn is going to do something awful?

Probably this from Sanderson's facebook page:

Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here:
Sir Gawain and the Green Knight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Gawain_and_the_Green_Knight#Significance_of_th e_colour_green)
from the comments:
One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of other characters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun sometime.)
Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.

Gawyn staying at the Tower instead of coming straight home to Caemlyn after the coup hardly seems worthy of rumor->stories->poems. Although perhaps that's the point. Still, there's ample foreshadowing of him doing something awful, although whether it's terrible or simply an awe-inspiring act remains to be seen (Terez's thinking on Gawyn needing to kill Rand to sever the Moridin link is compelling, although I am not sure something that large can be handled in the one remaining book).

Theris
03-22-2011, 11:17 AM
I would say his "betrayal" was him abandoning the Tower Aes Sedai and joining Egwayne. Whatever else, he abandoned his men and his oaths to the Tower - that is betrayal, pretty plain.

I just saw that the whole "Gawyn hates Rand" thing was resolved pretty neatly in ToM - he abandons his hate of Rand, feeling pity for him and washing clean of the hate, then finds his mother alive and well. Since it was a combination of jealousy for Egwayne's heart and false blame for his mother's murder that caused him to hate Rand to begin with, I just don't see him still popping out of nowhere to kill Rand.

Grig
03-22-2011, 11:52 AM
I just don't see him still popping out of nowhere to kill Rand.

Perhaps Egwene decides Rand must die (may or may not be true), and decides to have Gawyn make it happen? May or may not include bloodknife rings.

I don't particularly buy it that Gawyn is going to do something "bad" (bigtime, not just the last 7 books of emo indecisiveness), but there is plenty of foreshadowing along that avenue. And the worst thing most of the fandom can think of is killing Rand (or perhaps calling him "boy").

Gawain didn't behead the Green Man out of hatred. So while that whole silly hatred plot thread was resolved, that doesn't necessarily conclude the parallel.

Juan
03-22-2011, 12:04 PM
@Theris
If we look toward real life, hates are seldom that simple and logically-driven. If hates were like that, there'd be considerably less hate in the world.

Most often, hates are unreasonable, or at least, they are reasonable in the person's head because they went to extremes to rationalize and justify their hateful feelings toward someone.

It seems like Gawyn did leave behind his feelings very simply like that (so perhaps it's because he's a rare case, or because it's a fictional work and the author can make characters go through random changes for whatever reason(s).

That said, while I think the transition of Gawyn all of a sudden letting go of his hatred for Rand is literally unbelievable in the sense that for such a deep hatred, you can't just let it go that easily and simply. Even if you are shown, hey look the person you thought killed your mother really isn't dead. The person you thought did these sorts of things really didn't. With such hate, you will blindly find other reasons to justify why you feel that way for that person. To let go of such deep hate you need to go through a longer more gradual process of letting go. You can't just stop hating them that easily. Anyway, I do believe that although badly done/written in my opinion, Gawyn really did fulfill his traitor role and all that.

Zombie Sammael
03-23-2011, 10:23 AM
@Juan - people are capable of behaving in a wide variety of ways, both holding on to grudges and hatred and letting them go.

Ever had your heart broken? You might have hated the people involved at the time, and maybe for a good while afterwards, but years later after moving on with your life you find you can greet them as friends. At some point, you let go. People can do that as a conscious decision at a certain point, or unconsciously over a long period, or neither, or both.

The fact that someone has held a deep grudge doesn't mean that in 100% of cases they will always continue to hold it. They might, or they might realise it doesn't matter any more. People can behave in a very wide range of ways.