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New Futurist Man
03-04-2011, 07:58 PM
“Androl had been worrying for weeks now. Ever since Logain had left in the night. Where had he gone? Why had he taken Donalo, Mezar and Welyn — three of the most powerful Dedicated loyal to him — along?”
Towers of Midnight, chp. title Working Leather, [page 683]

Where is Logain?
In this theory I’m proposing Logain has been holed up in Caemlyn ever since an attack on him, Donalo, Mezar and Welyn — an attack which bore fruit for the Shadow in that Mezar was forcibly turned to it!

Before arguing why I think Caemlyn I’ll run through some other possibilities of what may have happened to him and his men:

1. He, like Mezar, has been ‘turned’ by a Circle of 13 darkfriend channellers and 13 Myrddraal;

2. Or: he was attacked by Shadow channellers but he, Donalo and Welyn were able to fight them off or just simply escape, whereas Mezar was captured and ‘turned’;

[Androl POV] “..Mezar had returned a few days back — explaining that Logain was well and that all would soon be resolved with Taim…”
Towers of Midnight, chp. title Something Wrong, [page 818]

[Androl POV] “[..][Mezar] smiled at him…[..]…And he saw what Norley had seen. Something was deeply wrong, something not-quite-alive inside those eyes. This didn’t seem to be a man, but a parody of one. A shadow stuffed inside human skin.”
Towers of Midnight, chp. title Something Wrong, [page 819]

3. Or: Logain really is just out scouting and only Mezar has been turned. Judging from their activity in TofM, there are plenty of Shadow channellers operating all over the Westlands, so its within the realms of possibility Mezar accidently stumbled into them. Unlikely, but a possibility;

4. Or: He and his Dedicated are with the Aes Sedai camped outside the Black Tower;

5. Or: The early ‘week(s)’ of Logain’s disappearance may be due merely to his workload:


He moved half the Asha’man to Illian for the Dragon, presumably he’d follow up orders to ensure they were properly deployed etc.;


He was negotiating with the Sea Folk until very recently;


He was at the manor house upon the occasion of the massive trolloc attack, and probably would’ve saw fit to stay around the Dragon in case of another attack, meaning a further drain on his time;


He accompanied the Dragon to the meet with Semirhage/Daughter of the Nine Moons, and as at least one of the Asha’man in his company were injured, its possible they laid up somewhere until they’d properly recovered from their Healing;


The man’s been quite busy. Based on the above its fair to assume his activities in tGS overlap with Taim’s setting the Dreamspike in the Black Tower, which might explain his absence;

The presence of the Dreamspike prohibiting Travelling in or out of the Black Tower confuses matters further in the sense that if Logain and co. were attacked by Shadow channellers and there was no Dreamspike, its permissible he would have returned to the Black Tower to gather those loyal to him — meaning we could deduce that it wasn’t any of Taim’s cronies who sprung the attack as Logain is hardly likely to return to the Black Tower after Taim moves so openly against him. But because of the Dreamspike‘s presence we can’t definitively say whether an assault has come from Taim‘s cronies, Shaidar Haran, Dreadlords etc.


Why Caemlyn?

For a start, it’s the closest large city to the Black Tower, so it makes sense to want to be close to the place, especially as Logain has many men loyal to him within the Black Tower's walls.

Secondly, it’s a city which can be said to be under the Dragon’s command — which has a number of connotations which support why Logain might be there:
its a safe place to wait it out, and test to see if Travelling to the Black Tower is operative once more;

Caemlyn and Andor in general is somewhat sympathetic to the Black Tower, and tolerates to a certain extent the 'men in black coats', so if Logain or another of his men were badly injured after a confrontation with Shadow channellers they could expect Caemlyn to be a good choice for somewhere to lie low and possibly seek medical attention, especially if originally they’d feared being followed by the Shadow channellers — Logain, probably aware of the many Kin and Aes Sedai in Caemlyn, would know the Shadow weren‘t likely to follow him and his men there and begin a fight using the Power.


Thirdly, Logain knows that the Dragon is going to pay a visit to Caemlyn sooner or later, and not just because of his relationship with Elayne.

Some of these points may be spurious. But I think the first point should probably suffice for why Logain will be in Caemlyn: we know how he feels about Taim and what he’s doing with the Black Tower, and if the attack on him came from Taim’s men then he’ll certainly not want to be too far from the Black Tower!

The most likely location other than Caemlyn would have been the gathering of Asha’man on the Illian border. The Dragon deployed what seemed a sizable amount of Asha’man upon his retaking of Maradon, Asha’man which could only have come from those on the Illian border. However Logain was conspicuous by his absence in Maradon. If he’d been with the Asha’man in Illian he’d have featured in the re-taking of Maradon, and would certainly have popped up at some point. So Illian seems equally unlikely.

Its worth noting his last meeting with the Dragon Reborn had been at the capture of Semirhage, and before that at the manor house. The Dragon has been moving around, staying in out-of-the-way locations ever since the Dashiva/Aginor-led attack upon the Sun Palace — so perhaps Logain, at this point, doesn’t actually know precisely where the Dragon is.

Caemlyn looks as good a bet as anywhere.

And if he is in Caemlyn it sets up a nice contest between him and the Shadowspawn and possible Dreadlords that are funnelling - even as you read! - out of the Caemlyn waygate . . . Well, we’ve all been waiting a long time to see Logain get medieval with some Shadowspawn, Dreadlords or, preferably, Taim. This would be a nice taster of what the man is capable of.


Addendum

[Androl POV] “He focused. Making gateways came so much easier to him than other weaves did; he’d never understood why. Though he couldn’t break even a small rock apart by channelling, he could make a gateway large enough for a wagon to drive through. Logain had called it impressive; Taim had called it impossible.”
Towers of Midnight, chp. title Something Wrong, [page 817]

Androl’s skill with the weaves for Travelling was really talked up in TofM, add that to the fact channellers in this Age are rediscovering the knack for Talents: Neald and Power-wrought weapons, Elayne and the making of Cuendillar etc. is it possible Androl and his ‘Talent’ for Gateways may be able to defy the hold the Dreamspike has on the Black Tower, possibly by some innovation on the Travelling weave…? The immediate permutations this would have for the Black Tower and the supposed impregnability of Taim's fortress could prove interesting.

Nei
03-05-2011, 12:29 AM
Logain's supposed to have glory in his future, so I highly doubt that he's been turned or anything of the sort. Your theory that he's been attacked and Mezar got captured actually sounds the most likely.

If Mezar had been sent by Logain to enter the Tower and check things out, then turning him would be a pretty risky thing to do since Logain's expecting him and these 13x13'd channellers are really bad actors. People who barely know the guy can tell he's been bodysnatched or at least acting funny. The only reason why Taim's been getting away with it is because of the dreamspike stopping Logain's faction from hightailing it out of there.

On a slightly related note, Aes Sedai are so stubbornly silly that I wouldn't be surprised if most of them refuse to listen to Logain (if he even tries speaking to them). Most of the Salidar AS are pretty much just sitting ducks for when the Tower AS are dealt with. At best I might say that Faolain might make it out because of Min's reading of a 'bright future'.

Terez
03-05-2011, 12:59 AM
I like the idea that he's hanging out in Caemlyn if for no other reason than that I want him to be able to help against the attack there. Wish there was something resembling real evidence for it.

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 08:40 AM
As I see it:

The Dragon: "In the coming days the world is about to experience the full onslaught of the Shadow's malice. In these days, man will need every and whatever advantage he can find. No doubt the Dreadlords who now serve the Shadow will be armed with many angreals and Sa'angreals. Their armies will also vastly outnumber ours. And they'll be led by the Forsaken, who's knowledge of the One Power only I can match...Unfortunately I won't be around to actually engage them myself, for I must go to Shayol Ghul as you know. But maybe this might help," he said, as he placed his good hand into a cloth bag, "perhaps this will right the balance somewhat..." From underneath the cloth Rand brought the statue of a man holding aloft a crystal ball. The light in the depths of the crystal ball seemed to fill Logain's eyes - or perhaps it was the other way round.

chp. 23, A Gift for Logain, A Memory of Light

***

Logain armed with the male Access Key as he leads the Asha'man against what will probably be 100s of Dreadlords - bit of a no-brainer that one! Cause otherwise I really can't see what advantage the Light possibly have! (The bondings aside...)

Such a shame it is no more! I woulda liked to have seen what Logain unleashed with the Choedan Kal could've done to the Shadow's armies.

maacaroni
03-25-2011, 08:59 AM
Dragon: Vado mori Shayol Ghul et reviviscant

surely? I'm a positive man, at heart

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 12:08 PM
Agree 100%. The conversation, however, isn't meant to be exhaustive. His rebirth is a foregone as far as I'm concerned, where I anticipate His returning as something........more.

But there'd be little point explaining that to the Amyrlin.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2011, 12:12 PM
Perhaps Rand will merge with Logain.

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 12:17 PM
Lol. Perhaps.

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 12:55 PM
[EDIT:] RAND-LOGAIN-ACCESS KEY SCENE:

[In the style of Capt. Koons' monologue from Pulp Fiction]

SCENE: The DRAGON REBORN steps inside the room toward LOGAIN ABLAR and sits on a chair to bring him even with LOGAIN'S eyeline. When the DRAGON REBORN speaks, he speaks with a slight Two Rivers accent.

DRAGON REBORN
Hello, LOGAIN. Boy I sure heard a bunch about you. See, I experienced a mindblowing moment of total revelation atop Dragonmount thus fulfilling prophecy and providing a reason - as if it was needed - why I should continue fighting the Shadow! Hopefully, you'll never have to experience this yourself. I got somethin' for ya.

The DRAGON REBORN pulls a short statue of a man holding a crystal ball from a cloth bag.

DRAGON REBORN
This Sa'angreal I got here was first made in the Age of Legends. It was made during the War of Power in a little factory in Emar Dal. It was wielded by Doughboy Ernie Coolidge Sedai the day he set sail for Paaran Disen until he was captured and put in a Shadow prison camp. Now he knew if the darkfriends ever saw the Access Key it'd be confiscated. The way he looked at it, that Access Key belonged to the Light. And he'd be damned if any darkfriend were gonna put their greasy Shadow hands on a Sa'angreal of the Light. So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide somethin'. His ass. Five long years, he wore this Access Key up his ass. Then when I discovered it in Rhuidean, it was my turn to hide it. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of nondescript metal up my ass for two years. And now, Logain, I give the Access Key to you.

The DRAGON REBORN hands the Access Key to LOGAIN.

Weiramon
03-25-2011, 01:05 PM
As I see it:



***

Logain armed with the male Access Key as he leads the Asha'man against what will probably be 100s of Dreadlords - bit of a no-brainer that one! Cause otherwise I really can't see what advantage the Light possibly have! (The bondings aside...)

Such a shame it is no more! I woulda liked to have seen what Logain unleashed with the Choedan Kal could've done to the Shadow's armies.

Aye, whatever it takes. Even the Choeden Kal.

But such power requires balance, checks on its use. A trusted advisor, whispering in this Logain fellow's ears, should suffice.

What could go wrong?

Nei
03-25-2011, 04:23 PM
The way he looked at it, that Access Key belonged to the Light. And he'd be damned if any darkfriend were gonna put their greasy Shadow hands on a Sa'angreal of the Light. So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide somethin'. His ass. Five long years, he wore this Access Key up his ass. Then when I discovered it in Rhuidean, it was my turn to hide it. I hid this uncomfortable hunk of nondescript metal up my ass for two years. And now, Logain, I give the Access Key to you.

The DRAGON REBORN hands the Access Key to LOGAIN.


I laughed. Probably harder than I should have. >_>

We haven't seen very many male angreal except plot related ones. I'm not sure if I'd be thrilled if they suddenly started sprouting like mushrooms in MoL.

Spasmodean
03-25-2011, 04:41 PM
I laughed. Probably harder than I should have. >_>

We haven't seen very many male angreal except plot related ones. I'm not sure if I'd be thrilled if they suddenly started sprouting like mushrooms in MoL.

Demandred has one. Worth remembering :)

greatwolf
03-26-2011, 05:30 PM
IIRC, there's more than one access key. And there're many other terangreal and many ways to achieve glory.

Taim might just be overconfident. The use of a dreamspike at the BT is a tad too obvious I think. Unless he plans to turn everyone inside to the shadow or at least a large number. The Rand BFed semirhage would very likely come after him for it in a very bad way. possibly even with the CK. But now, who knows?

Whether Rand or Logain or both, whoever comes will come prepared for the worst. And if Egwene decides to upstage Rand in this as well, then its very likely byebye Taim.

E: Demandred has what?

csarmi
03-27-2011, 02:16 PM
The Accass key, you mean.

New Futurist Man
03-30-2011, 11:24 AM
Spasmodean: Demandred has one. Worth remembering

What book/chp. does Demandred use/mention he has an angreal?

*

Q: Whatever happened to Rand's little fat-man-holding-a-sword angreal?

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2011, 11:39 AM
Q: Whatever happened to Rand's little fat-man-holding-a-sword angreal?Perrin stole it. Am I really the first to come up with this theory, or does it merely feel that way?

New Futurist Man
03-30-2011, 11:46 AM
Perrin stole it!? When did this happen? Did he know what it was?

GonzoTheGreat
03-30-2011, 12:10 PM
I do not quite yet have all those details worked out.

Heinz
03-30-2011, 01:31 PM
I assume that Taim now has the fat little man angreal, post Dumai's Wells. Rand 'had the wagon searched' X amount of times and it never turned up. Its possible a Black Ajah who also escaped the disaster and returned to the Tower had it, and it'll wind up with Moridin or something. But with Taim and the Asha'man present, I think it more likely that's where it disappeared to.

I don't know about all the new Dreadlords having a bunch of angreal and sa'angreal. The Forsaken themselves have been hunting for cache's of ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal all series, and have had marginal success. When they do have some success, they haven't seemed trusting or free with it. So unless one of the new Dreadlords can also make these things themselves - the Forsaken apparently do not know how since they do not seem to have created anything since being freed - I think only Taim will show up with the fat little man angreal..

Logain turning up in Caemlyn for the upcomming fight there would be interesting. If they do manage to save the city, and he and his Dedicated/Soldiers are present, it can't hurt the Black Tower's future with Andor.

LewsTherin10
03-30-2011, 01:39 PM
Think about it.

1. Mezar's presence and subsequent Shadow turning indicates that he was brought to Taim. I don't see him going to Taim willingly so he must have been captured.

2. Mezar was with Logain so it's possible that there was some sort of attack by Taim's lackeys to capture Logain and Co or more likely Mezar was on his way back to the BT alone to warn those loyal to Logain to leave the BT but was captured and turned.

3. If Logain and Co were attacked then it's more likely that all of them were captured and Logain is being held prisoner somewhere orless likely he escaped the attack and is hiding out somewhere.

4. The only reason Mezar would say what Androl said he did is that Logain is currently captured or Taim made Mezar say that to placate Logain's followers.

In the case of Logain being with Mezar when the attack happened, Logain escaping would logically be followed by Logain seeking out Rand to let him know what's going on at the BT. This hasn't happened.

In the case of Logain not being with Mezar, Logain likely has no idea that Mezar is turned. Therefore Logain is continuing with his current plans.

In conclusion, it is most Likely that Logain is captured because of Mezar's words, "..all would soon be resolved with Taim..”

Res_Ipsa
04-02-2011, 02:24 PM
I do not quite yet have all those details worked out.

Yeah he wanted to chill with a little buddha while he was all melancholy. Now that he has manned up he has no doubt put away his need for soothing trinkets.

greatwolf
04-02-2011, 09:43 PM
I laughed. Probably harder than I should have. >_>

We haven't seen very many male angreal except plot related ones. I'm not sure if I'd be thrilled if they suddenly started sprouting like mushrooms in MoL.

They will. Moridin has begun distributing xmas gifts and avi will probably share some booty as well.

New Futurist Man
04-05-2011, 04:05 AM
LewsTherin10: In conclusion, it is most Likely that Logain is captured because of Mezar's words, "..all would soon be resolved with Taim..”

Exactly what 'resolved' means in this context is anyones guess. I think however its unlikely to mean Logain has been captured and is, even as Mezar spoke, being forcibly turned to the Shadow.

What's more likely is, what with Taim setting up the Dreamspike and pretty much declaring in bold print that he serves the Shadow, that the faceoff AKA 'resolution' between himself and Logain is imminent. Taim obviously feels pretty confident he's on the winning side. He doesn't as yet know about the Dragon's 'change', so from his perspective he probably thinks the war is a foregone conclusion.

I take Mezar's words to mean Taim's confident that victory is imminent, in other words: Logain and Taim's mutual dislike will be resolved through the death of the former...

Bonek
04-14-2011, 07:47 AM
I posted this in Tar Valon. But noone replied. Turns out, the discussions in here are much juicier. So now, I walk in the Light. :D
**************

As Brandon stated earlier, the book will begin with BT storyline. Considering the facts that:
- More than half the ashamans (approximately 600, if we consider ashamans total number at 1000) were taken from BT (which is a very good thing) and stationed in Illian and other Rand's lands.
- Around 100 ashaman (presumably from those 600) were sent to Rodel but they later returned to some place unknown? Tear, Illian or BT? We don't know yet. But we do know that their leader lost his leg and he is a good guy.
- BT itself currently is split to 2 camps - good guys loyal to Logain and bad Taim's pawns. Good guys with the leadership of Androl (he is a curious guy) are allying themselves with Aes sedai inside the BT.
- We last saw Logain in the prologue of tGS when he was with Rand while returning captured suldam and damane to Ebou Dar.
- Logain with Taim's permission went to recruit new ashamans.

So, my BT storyline (the first chapters of MoL) will be as follows:
Logain takes around 100 ashaman from Illian and travels to Seanchan lands where he aggressively recruits men who can channel. In order to get as many men as possible he brings that many ashaman with him and lots of tea. Within 1 month he gets around 300-500 new recruits and they are taught only most basic destructive and protective weaves (protective dome weave which we saw in Dumai's wells is a must). This whole recruiting mission is presented as a flashback from the more or less closer time (like 2-3 days before FoM meeting) when Logain is marching towards BT with his army. He travelled to a place near BT and marches from there. Near BT, he sees Myrelle's group of Aes sedai and gets angry when he learns that they are still not got permission to bond ashaman. At this time, Naeff arrives with the message from Rand and they discuss what's happening in BT. Why they're not able to travell there directly etc. and Naeff shows Logain Rand's new weave by which ashaman can hide their ability to channel. From there, Logain's and Myrelle's armies go to BT's nearest gate, while Logain's new ashaman are disguised as Myrelle's common soldiers with hidden channeling ability. At BT's gate, seeing Logain, Androll's party marches towards him with proof that Taim is a dirty bastard. AND the battle begins. At the end of the battle, good guys win. But Logain's glory has yet to come. As he sees fires from Caemlin and marches his ashaman and Myrelle's allied aes sedai to fight shadowspawn in Caemlin where his triumph will give him his GLORY which was foretold by Min.

LewsTherin10
04-14-2011, 08:31 AM
I don't see the BT issue being resolved before the Last Battle. I see it being part of the Last Battle. I expect it to be one of the many fronts Tarmon Gaidon will be fought on. Logain will lead this battle and come out the victor ensuring his glory and place as head of the BT. When the dust is settled he'll negotiate with Egwene the rightful place of male Aes Sedai. She'll have no choice but to play ball because of the Asha'man sheer numbers.

Bonek
04-14-2011, 08:41 AM
I don't see the BT issue being resolved before the Last Battle. I see it being part of the Last Battle. I expect it to be one of the many fronts Tarmon Gaidon will be fought on. Logain will lead this battle and come out the victor ensuring his glory and place as head of the BT. When the dust is settled he'll negotiate with Egwene the rightful place of male Aes Sedai. She'll have no choice but to play ball because of the Asha'man sheer numbers.

Well, whatever left of the black ashamans can run away from BT and participate in Tarmon Gaidon as Dread Lords.

I see it this way. Taim MUST die in the beginning of MoL, because Dark side has too many ego males already.
- Moridin
- Demandred
- Mordeth (well, he is his own master. but still big egomaniac)

So, there won't be too many POV possibilities to include all the bad leaders in Tarmon Gaidon :)

Besides, Mor+Dem = Rand+Logain. It is fair I think :)

New Futurist Man
04-14-2011, 10:36 PM
So, my BT storyline (the first chapters of MoL) will be as follows:
Logain takes around 100 ashaman from Illian...

Excellent theory Bonek, I hadn't even considered the use Logain could put to the weave the Dragon taught Naeff!

At BT's gate, seeing Logain, Androll's party marches towards him with proof that Taim is a dirty bastard.

LMAO! I LOL'd out loud!

New Futurist Man
04-14-2011, 11:18 PM
- More than half the ashamans (approximately 600, if we consider ashamans total number at 1000) were taken from BT (which is a very good thing) and stationed in Illian and other Rand's lands.
- Around 100 ashaman (presumably from those 600) were sent to Rodel but they later returned to some place unknown? Tear, Illian or BT? We don't know yet. But we do know that their leader lost his leg and he is a good guy.

I think its pretty safe to assume the 100 Asha'man led by Deepe Bhadar who accompanied Ituralde were deployed from the Black Tower. There would have been no reason to weaken the defense of the Illian border by scooping up a huge percentage of the Asha'man stationed there when there are 100s of trained Asha'man inactive in the Black Tower. Given that at the time the Dragon still more or less presumed his writ still commanded things in the Black Tower, its almost certain he would've deployed Asha'man from the Black Tower.

As its unlikely any of the Asha'man attached to Ituralde's army returned to the Black Tower, would mean the number of Asha'man resident outside the Black Tower - and, we presume, loyal to the Light - comfortably outweighs those within its walls and privy to Taim's machinations.