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arioch
03-09-2011, 01:04 PM
I was reading the Demandred faq thread and I thought up some stuff that could potentially tie a lot of the remaining clues together. Now this is all speculation, but, let's see where this all leads:

1) Aludra started creating the cannons since around WH, Mat thinks he can hear the Dark One's laughter.
2) Elayne has the cannons stashed in a secret warehouses that only relatively few trusted are privy to.
3) Shadowspawn assault Caemlyn, per end of ToM Talmanes rushes to the defense of the warehouses.
4) Demandred gave Talmanes a pipe with a metal component (tracer?).

5) ???

6) Demandred sweeps in and steals the cannons, escape Caemlyn via gateway, killing Talmanes (and someone else?) in the process before Mat's forces recapture Caemlyn.

Think about it, we're still downplaying the impact a single country's worth of soldiers can have against channellers. What if they have all the cannons? This is how Demandred's assumed Murandy plot can become pretty significant for the last book.

The assumption always was that Demandred was simply moving in on Andor, but I don't see that happening.

Seth Baker
03-09-2011, 01:42 PM
Interesting idea. Assuming he is Roedran, the fact that there's a metal component to that pipe so that it could hold a trace could be very significant. Good catch on that, even if the rest of the theory doesn't pan out.

arioch
03-09-2011, 01:45 PM
Interesting idea. Assuming he is Roedran, the fact that there's a metal component to that pipe so that it could hold a trace could be very significant. Good catch on that, even if the rest of the theory doesn't pan out.

That actually has been remarked upon in this forum and others, and does figure in the Demandred faq that Terez put up.

What I'm suggesting is that the pipe is what enables Demandred to put his hands on the cannons in Caemlyn.

looqas
03-09-2011, 03:38 PM
...the tracer weave was all Moiraine's own and no one else knows it. You know, deus ex machina kind of weave. Just a thought.

nameless
03-09-2011, 03:45 PM
Finders are common enough knowledge that Moiraine had all the boys' clothes replaced in tGH, and Elayne uses one to intimidate her pickpocket/spy into good behavior.

Terez
03-09-2011, 03:46 PM
Edit: nameless beat me to it, and he was nicer.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Demandred would also have to carry off a lot of gunpowder. Which Elayne surely* did not store in the city itself, since if she did, then one arsonous Trolloc could wreck most of her capital.

* For a certain value of "surely". Anyone willing to bet on this?

arioch
03-09-2011, 04:43 PM
Demandred would also have to carry off a lot of gunpowder. Which Elayne surely* did not store in the city itself, since if she did, then one arsonous Trolloc could wreck most of her capital.

* For a certain value of "surely". Anyone willing to bet on this?

Demandred would surely have showed up in sufficient number to carry off everything. A few thousand troops with gateways should be more than sufficient. All he'd have to do is tell the myrddraal to keep their trollocs away from "inner city area X".

The perennial problem with Demandred/Murandy is that you'd have to assume that his entire army consists of Darkfriends.

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2011, 04:57 PM
The perennial problem with Demandred/Murandy is that you'd have to assume that his entire army consists of Darkfriends.Not necessarily. They could also be Murandian patriots, who are willing to fight (pro-actively if necessary) against Andoran aggression.

arioch
03-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Not necessarily. They could also be Murandian patriots, who are willing to fight (pro-actively if necessary) against Andoran aggression.

Yeah but after that what does Demandred do with them?

GonzoTheGreat
03-09-2011, 05:23 PM
Yeah but after that what does Demandred do with them?Abandon them?
That's the standard approach to dupes who are too honest to make proper henchmen, you know.

I mean, if they win, then the DO is in control of the world, Demandred will have his full support, so he then no longer needs worry about what those useful idiots think.
And if the Dragon wins, then Demandred will have more serious enemies on his tail than a couple of thousand non-channeling enthusiasts who are busy trying to explain to the victorious Aiel that they had been fighting for the Light the whole time, really, even though they assaulted the Dragon's forces from the rear during Tarmon Gai'don.

I really do not see why Demandred would have to worry about "after" in this case.

arioch
03-09-2011, 06:02 PM
No, I'm saying that the justification that they're striking at an encroaching Andor may work if they're sent to Caemlyn, but deploying them to strike at allied Light forces in Tarmon Gai'don is probably out of the question. Unless Demandred expends a real non-insignificant amount of power in maintaining some massive Mirror of Mists illusion or something.

So I'm kind of at a loss at what he'd be planning to do AFTER striking Caemlyn in a smash-and-grab.

Weiramon
03-09-2011, 06:35 PM
Strike Cairhien.

Darilian
03-09-2011, 10:41 PM
Those dragons would give the Shadow the upper hand in the siege of Maradon...


I think that the Murandians are just a means to an end. Pitting them against Andor and or Cairhein under a pretext of retaking lands from encroaching neighbors is just a way to create chaos in the region.

GonzoTheGreat
03-10-2011, 07:15 AM
No, I'm saying that the justification that they're striking at an encroaching Andor may work if they're sent to Caemlyn, but deploying them to strike at allied Light forces in Tarmon Gai'don is probably out of the question. Unless Demandred expends a real non-insignificant amount of power in maintaining some massive Mirror of Mists illusion or something.

So I'm kind of at a loss at what he'd be planning to do AFTER striking Caemlyn in a smash-and-grab.Well, if they are brought through gateways into Caemlyn, told to pick up the "secret weapons Elayne has been stashing for use against Murandy", and then deployed elsewhere, how are they supposed to now precisely where they are, or whom they are fighting?

Just send them into battle, and by the time anyone figures out they're not on the side they want to be everything will be over and done with anyway.
Soldiers aren't trained to ask questions during actual combat. Add in the ignorance engendered by sending them to their destinations through gateways, and they won't know which forces are fighting on the side of the Light, and which on the side of the Shadow.

As an added incentive, there are Sammael's Shaido Aiel, who have been stirring up anti-Aiel feelings all over Randland. So if the Murandians encounter Aiel on a battle field, they're not too likely to start out from the assumption that those black eyed killers will be friendly and peaceful.

Weiramon
03-10-2011, 01:26 PM
Why, that would lead to chaos. Now who would want that?

GonzoTheGreat
03-10-2011, 01:38 PM
In addition: it takes some practice to become a competent gunner. If you've never seen a gun before, come from a society where gunpowder is an actual secret kept by a very small group, and you have one night to learn, then how well do you think you would manage?

Demandred can't expect to be able to effectively use those Dragons, and he has the knowledge to understand that. But he can deny them to his enemies, and do a lot of damage at the same time. Simply by allowing that torch wielding Trolloc to learn about black powder.

Casabamelon
03-11-2011, 02:35 PM
Question marks first lead me here, then to dismissal:

1) Steal underwear
2) ?????
3) Profit

looqas
03-14-2011, 04:54 AM
Demandred can't expect to be able to effectively use those Dragons, and he has the knowledge to understand that. But he can deny them to his enemies, and do a lot of damage at the same time. Simply by allowing that torch wielding Trolloc to learn about black powder.

Somehow this totally springs to mind the Uruk'hai gauntlet runner in LOTR. :(

I call plagiarizing!

GonzoTheGreat
03-14-2011, 06:18 AM
LOTR is a classic. There's absolutely no conceivable reason why Demandred wouldn't have read it.

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2011, 07:55 AM
LOTR is a classic. There's absolutely no conceivable reason why Demandred wouldn't have read it.

There is if you take the "WOT" model as representing the whole of fantasy fiction; in which case LOTR is not in fact a novel but a historical record of a previous turning of the wheel, and quite probably a previous third age. Robin Hobb's Farseer books fit quite well into this model, too, but pretty much anyone can be shoe-horned in. This is, of course, a looney theory.

The Unreasoner
03-18-2011, 10:12 PM
I think Demandred has his hand in multiple pies, but I think his major role is that of a general. Sanderson is neither stupid nor foolish, and has named Demandred as his second favorite Forsaken. And for Demandred to thrive, he is probably in his element. So who does he command? I think, taking his prior duties of monitoring Rand into consideration, he likely holds some amount of power with the Legion of the Dragon.

My reasons...

1. The Legion is largely ignored by Rand, who might recognize Demandred's influence
2. Taim could theoretically throw in the occasional Darkfriend to the recruits, raising the proportion of Legionmen who would obey Demandred or one of his "proxies"
3. The Legion was organized by two of the best military minds of the Age (Bashere and Mat), and Demandred likely would be able to recognize the wisdom in the design, and utilize it
4. Its frequent proximity to the Saldaens under Bashere could explain why Demandred was tasked with monitoring Rand, and potentially the "dark images" surrounding Bashere seen by Min as well.

However, as I said, many pies. Just as Mat, Bashere, Rhuarc, Bael, and now Ituralde control the bulk of Rand's forces, Moridin likely leaves military matters to others, most likely the most talented. Who better than Demandred? I think he controls the red-veiled "Aiel" (I also think the nation or clan they belong to is the "____" in the Blight that no one knows about. Even, apparently, the Forsaken. Graendal knew nothing of Demandred's plans, but if he controlled an army whose existence was revealed to him by the Dark One, she would not be expected to. It could even explain Demandred's delay in calling the Forsaken to reveal the Dark One's orders, he first went to establish and secure authority in the unknown nation.). Demandred also could be behind the red greatship raids in Seanchan, ensuring the continent remains in chaos, and therefore following the Dark One's orders. Perhaps he is the "murderer openly [ruling]" in Seanchan, though I doubt it. It is probably some random warlord of some random faction, perhaps the believed assassin of the Imperial Family. He could also conceivably have taken control of the Correnne after Semmirhage's capture. Murandy is likely beneath his notice, though maybe he rules purely as an idle amusement. Shara is, I think, a possible location for the red greatships to depart from, but as for de facto ruling, I think it requires too much effort and yields too little reward. Isle of Madmen is ridiculous, though he or Moridin could have done some additional "recruiting" there. He is almost definitely behind the Borderland invasion, and likely behind the Caemlyn one as well. The general reticence of Jordan on Demandred, and Sanderson's on both the red-veiled Aiel and Demandred indicate, at least to me, a connection; as well as an excellent candidate for the "____" in the Blight.