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1Powerslave
03-14-2011, 10:44 AM
This is a little theory on how the Black Tower showdown may come to pass. It is inspired by Linda at the 13th Depository's writings on the Black Tower.

Give me the Red Ajah

At Merrilor Naeff will return to Rand. He will give a bone-chilling report to Rand. Logain was right all along Taim is a darkfriend. Worse, a Forsaken power channeler in control of the Black Tower with over a hundred dark Asha'man, steadily turning the rest to the Shadow via the 13 Myrddraal 13 Black Ajah trick. And on top of that they are holding the wives and children of the Asha'man bound to the Light hostage.

The significance of the Asha'man families as hostages of the Shadow should be evident now that the Last Battle has begun. Will they fight in the Last Battle or will they try to rescue their families from the horrors visited upon them by the Shadow? An impossible choice that they must not come to make. Rand will need to act before they learn this or he may find Asha'man deserting the armies holding the Shadowspawn at bay. The Asha'man have bonded their wives and will know if they are in pain. The clock is ticking, there isn't much time. Even a successful rescue will surely cost many innocent lives, causing Asha'man to leave their posts to investigate the pain/death of their loved ones.

It will all crash home to Rand. The warnings of Lews Therin from his experiences with Demandred and Sammael, the more honors he bestowed upon them the more their hate grew until they turned, betraying when they could do the most damage. The warnings when Lews Therin told Rand to kill Taim the first time he laid eyes on him. Taim being a parallell to Demandred who was tasked with the reinvention of war and building armies for the Light, but turned because he couldn't accept that Lews Therin was put higher than him, always saw himself as better than Lews Therin.

What this means is essentially that Rand cannot rely on Asha'man with family left at the Black Tower to be a part of the rescue. You don't send the Spetsnaz to rescue their own families from terrorists. Rand will need help, because he hasn't got the man-power for it. This is where the girl-pow- er, the Red Ajah comes in. It is their sole purpose to subdue male channelers. Well, it is time for them to do just that.

The purpose of the Red Ajah has been pretty useless for ever since they got the mad Breaking-era Aes Sedai under control. Nowadays false Dragons pop up very infrequently. I'll say the Red Ajah hasn't really been needed for thousands of years. Aes Sedai doesn't have to be skilled dealing with male channelers if they can put a few circles of 13 around a false Dragon. The Red Ajah should have been disbanded long ago, yet it hasn't.

Chance has it so that it wasn't disbanded, and now when there is the most dire need of them ever since the Breaking, they are here and they are the most numerous Ajah there is. The Pattern has placed them here to counter this threat. It also happens that they now can enact vengeance upon Mazrim Taim who ordered the capture and bonding of their fellow Ajah members, and escaped False Dragon who killed Sisters.

It of course remains to be seen if they have any skill at what they do, present day Aes Sedai have been known to disappoint.

I think Egwene and the Hall and the Red Ajah will be agreeable to this. They certainly saw the danger of the Black Tower from the beginning and upon learning that there is a large number of Darkfriends there and that they have Aes Sedai there that they are turning to the Shadow, they will agree that the Black Tower must be assaulted (again, heh).

"The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and Sisters will walk it's grounds." Thus spake Elaida, and perhaps she wasn't so wrong in her interpretation of her Foretelling that we were led to believe. It may yet come to pass just like Elaida thought.

Yes, I think that at this point the only sollution to the Black Tower is a frontal assault on Taim and his cronies. And I think this is a conclusion even Rand as he is now will come to. We will just have to pray that as many hostages as possible will make it out alive.

I imagine it similar to when the Spetsnaz stormed a theatre were thirty something chechnian terrorists held many hostages. About half the hostages died IIRC, and all the terrorist and many of the Spetsnaz. It was a bloodbath.

They will go in fighting is my guess. Surprise being a precious if small advantage when trying to rescue hostages. Rand leading the entire Red Ajah, a few other trusted Aes Sedai and Asha'man and a large number of Maidens of the Spear. A symbolic battle in many ways. Women against men, Light vs. Shadow, Red Ajah vs. male channelers (a very built up confrontation). Red vs. Black in the clothing that they wear and the floor tiles in Taim's palace (okay, that one was weak).

4Alethinos
03-14-2011, 03:03 PM
Where is Logain in all of this? Why is he not the one to solve the Taim issue. He has got to get all that prophesied glory from somewhere that Min has constantly seen over him. Where better than at the black Tower and then lead the survivors into the Last Battle and gain more glory there.

He is going to rule and Min is never wrong and especially about Moiraine. hehe

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2011, 03:07 PM
Good theory. I had thought the purpose of the Red Ajah following Tarmon Gai'don (if, in fact, the AS survive at all) would have shifted to being the Ajah that rounds up all channelers, regardless of gender, for some manner of training; and also effectively would come to act as a liaison with the other channeling groups dotted about (hence the close ties to the Greys, the negotiators). However, is it possible their purpose will also be to "mop up" those surviving Dark channelers, whether turned or willing?

1Powerslave
03-14-2011, 07:40 PM
Where is Logain in all of this? Why is he not the one to solve the Taim issue. He has got to get all that prophesied glory from somewhere that Min has constantly seen over him. Where better than at the black Tower and then lead the survivors into the Last Battle and gain more glory there.

He is going to rule and Min is never wrong and especially about Moiraine. hehe
Good question. I don't know where Logain is in this. Perhaps he is captured by Taim, given Mezar's (?) appearance as now a turned Asha'man. Perhaps he will be with the assault team and pick up the pieces afterwards. There is plenty of glory to be had still after the Black Tower has been dealt with. Logain can lead the Asha'man in the Last Battle and win many battles. If the Guardians of good prove themselves as invaluable in the Last Battle to all of mankind and Logain leads them, that would be much glory.

I read an interesting theory over at the 13th repository, Moridin is Taim. It hits close to me with most of the Taimandred arguments then still valid and added some other stuff that just rings nicely. Anyway, that would be something, if Rand goes to the Black Tower to end Taim but finds Moridin!

When I think of that scenario I want to draw parallells to when Lews Therin bested Ishamael at the gates to Paaran Disen and humiliated him in the Hall of Servants. This time though, it will be the other way around, and it will be in the Hall of the Black Tower. :)

Perhaps Moridin will use the link against Rand and Rand's body will fail him. The Dragon Reborn will perhaps fall here! Little do the people know that he now lives on inside the mind of Moridin. ;)

1Powerslave
03-14-2011, 07:42 PM
Good theory. I had thought the purpose of the Red Ajah following Tarmon Gai'don (if, in fact, the AS survive at all) would have shifted to being the Ajah that rounds up all channelers, regardless of gender, for some manner of training; and also effectively would come to act as a liaison with the other channeling groups dotted about (hence the close ties to the Greys, the negotiators). However, is it possible their purpose will also be to "mop up" those surviving Dark channelers, whether turned or willing?
The new purpose for the Red Ajah, now that saidin is cleansed, has me stumped. I can't think of anything good that would motivate an Ajah for it.

Zombie Sammael
03-14-2011, 08:07 PM
The new purpose for the Red Ajah, now that saidin is cleansed, has me stumped. I can't think of anything good that would motivate an Ajah for it.

It seems intuitive to me that they'd go from "capture and gentle" to "round up for training", but it seems like a lot of people don't see that so much.

nameless
03-14-2011, 11:06 PM
It's the smart move for them. Whichever Ajah gets their foot in the door with mixed gender circles gains a big edge over the others, and the Reds already have precedent to claim that men who can channel are "Ajah business."

Juan
03-14-2011, 11:59 PM
Or it could be that Logain is turned to the Shadow. I don't remember Min's viewing saying that he'd find glory for the Light. It could be glory for the Shadow.

Zombie Sammael
03-15-2011, 05:19 AM
Or it could be that Logain is turned to the Shadow. I don't remember Min's viewing saying that he'd find glory for the Light. It could be glory for the Shadow.

Has Min ever had another viewing where something positive-sounding has turned out to be "for the Shadow"? I know that's a bit specific but I also know that while she's had viewings that have portended bad things happening for the Light, as far as I recall that's always been framed in negative terms rather than positive. She's never, for instance, looked at AS and had a "she's going to fall in love" viewing and then the AS in questions has fallen in love... with the Dark One!

I'm not 100% sure so just wondered if anyone had a specific example of this.

maacaroni
03-15-2011, 05:25 AM
I don't think Rand will be involved at all. I'd agree with much of that but transpose Logain for Rand.

4Alethinos
03-15-2011, 12:01 PM
I suggested long ago, when I was so much younger, that the Red Ajah would no longer be hunting false dragons, but would be the female side of a police force to control ambitious users of the OP from both sides in the coming fourth aga. The would do this in concert with agents from the Black Tower.

OP without some brainwashing is power corrupting.

Zombie Sammael
03-16-2011, 07:43 AM
I no longer think, after TOM, that the White Tower/Black Tower division will remain. I think that in some form the Aes Sedai will be reunited, from both genders. The Asha'man were weapons; after the last battle, there will be little need of weapons.

Juan
03-16-2011, 01:22 PM
I no longer think, after TOM, that the White Tower/Black Tower division will remain. I think that in some form the Aes Sedai will be reunited, from both genders. The Asha'man were weapons; after the last battle, there will be little need of weapons.

Not if the Seanchan do their little conquering as they did in the Aiel's future vision Avi saw.

Zombie Sammael
03-16-2011, 01:46 PM
Not if the Seanchan do their little conquering as they did in the Aiel's future vision Avi saw.

It's very unlikely that vision will actually come to pass in unaltered form, I would say.

Juan
03-16-2011, 03:18 PM
As it stands, chances are it will happen, much to my dislike. Perhaps we will get information or actions that will actually decrease the chances. I hope we do in AMOL. Especially if the outrigger novels are written.

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2011, 04:33 PM
That vision is in conflict with the "a remnant of a remnant will he save" prophecy. As the latter one is dependable, the former has to be a false prophecy.

Juan
03-16-2011, 05:57 PM
A remnant of a remnant survived in Avis vision. At this point the viewing could occur with the information given.

greatwolf
03-17-2011, 04:41 AM
A remnant of a remnant survived in Avis vision. At this point the viewing could occur with the information given.


I think Gonzo meant "a remnant" Of the original aiel. That could have happened already when he chose not to BF Ebou Dar and its tinkers. However you could still be right that Avi's vision will occur regardless of whatever remnant he saves.

GonzoTheGreat
03-17-2011, 05:54 AM
A remnant of a remnant survived in Avis vision. At this point the viewing could occur with the information given.But that was not in any way due to Rand, so the "he will save" bit was not satisfied.

Edited to add:
'He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.'
That's the actual prophecy, and it does not fit the vision Aviendha had at all.

Zombie Sammael
03-17-2011, 10:32 AM
But that was not in any way due to Rand, so the "he will save" bit was not satisfied.

Edited to add:
'He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live.'
That's the actual prophecy, and it does not fit the vision Aviendha had at all.

We are going a little off-topic, but I wondered if the "remnant of a remnant" might not just refer to the Aiel as a whole, now - the remnant of the Da'shain Aiel from the AOL.

In that case, "the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live" refers to the Aiel as a whole. Him saving them, and changing the future Avi saw, would thus be necessary for the fulfilling of the prophecy.

GonzoTheGreat
03-17-2011, 10:42 AM
I doubt that, since even in the time when the Aiel (as they are now) heard this prophecy, the Jenn Aiel were already a minority. Referring to the majority as a "remnant of a remnant" is stretching it, I would say.

Zombie Sammael
03-18-2011, 04:58 AM
I doubt that, since even in the time when the Aiel (as they are now) heard this prophecy, the Jenn Aiel were already a minority. Referring to the majority as a "remnant of a remnant" is stretching it, I would say.

They're a remnant of a remnant not in the sense that they are a tiny fraction of the whole, but that they are all that remains of the Da'Shain Aiel from the AOL. The Jenn are a remnant of the Da'Shain, and the Aiel are a remnant of the Jenn.

greatwolf
03-21-2011, 12:23 AM
They're a remnant of a remnant not in the sense that they are a tiny fraction of the whole, but that they are all that remains of the Da'Shain Aiel from the AOL. The Jenn are a remnant of the Da'Shain, and the Aiel are a remnant of the Jenn.


The tinkers can probably be considered a remnant too. They are all that remains of the aiel, perhaps all that remains of those dedicated to the way of the leaf.