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View Full Version : Why hasn't anyone tried this?


LewsTherin10
03-24-2011, 12:40 PM
Being that there's a lot of action happening in the world of dreams in ToM, it made me wonder why no one has ever tried to go to Shayol Ghul while there. Think of all the useful info that could be gathered: Trolloc army size, the Dark One having tea with the Forsaken, or perhaps vital information that could help Rand defeat him. Isn't anyone even curious to know what it looks like there? It's not a bad idea to check before Rand goes there in the waking world (that is unless he plans on fighting the DO in TAR).

Juan
03-24-2011, 12:45 PM
I believe the Blight is inaccessible from TAR.

Madgod
03-24-2011, 01:01 PM
According to Terez's quote database, the Blight cannot be accessed from T'A'R because it is not part of the normal world. I would guess that what goes for the blight goes double for Shayol Ghul. I sort of remember RJ saying that Shayol Ghul was also inaccessible, but can't find a quote.

GonzoTheGreat
03-24-2011, 01:13 PM
One could wonder why they don't look around in the real world there, though. I mean, you don't have to actually step through a gateway, you can see look through it and then close it again without leaving your comfortable chair at all.

Edynol
03-24-2011, 06:09 PM
Gateways are linked to TAR. If you can't go somewhere in TAR, you can't open a gateway there. That's why Stedding and Dreamspikes prevent gateways.

Weird Harold
03-24-2011, 06:49 PM
Gateways are linked to TAR. If you can't go somewhere in TAR, you can't open a gateway there. That's why Stedding and Dreamspikes prevent gateways.
Greandal's POVs show gateways to Moridin's tower in the blight. Specifically to the "far north east of the blight," IIRC.

Edynol
03-24-2011, 07:12 PM
That was near the Blight, to the north east, not actually in the blight.

Rand al'Fain
03-24-2011, 07:48 PM
Being that there's a lot of action happening in the world of dreams in ToM, it made me wonder why no one has ever tried to go to Shayol Ghul while there. Think of all the useful info that could be gathered: Trolloc army size, the Dark One having tea with the Forsaken, or perhaps vital information that could help Rand defeat him. Isn't anyone even curious to know what it looks like there? It's not a bad idea to check before Rand goes there in the waking world (that is unless he plans on fighting the DO in TAR).

For future reference, please just stick with the standard white colored font, or at least a bright colored one. Dark color on dark color does no eyes any favors.

Weird Harold
03-24-2011, 07:59 PM
That was near the Blight, to the north east, not actually in the blight.
TGS Prologue:
She walked to the window and found the reason for the rust-colored light. Outside, the claylike ground was stained red from the iron in the soil. She was on the second level of a deep black tower, the stones drawing in the burning heat of the sky. Very little vegetation sprouted outside, and that which did was spotted with black. So, it was the deep northeastern Blight. It had been some time since she'd been here. Moridin seemed to have located a fortress, of all things.

A collection of shoddy huts stood in the shadow of the fortress, and a few patches of blightstrain crops marked fields in the distance. They were probably trying a new strain, coaxing it to grow in the area. Perhaps several different crops; that would explain the patches. Guards prowled the area, wearing black uniforms despite the heat. Soldiers were necessary to fight off attacks from the various Shadowspawn that inhabited the lands this deep within the Blight. Those creatures obeyed no master save for the Great Lord himself. What was Moridin doing all the way out here?

Juan
03-24-2011, 08:05 PM
Damn, Harold. You beat me to it.

Lightning
03-24-2011, 09:08 PM
Don't all the forsaken open a gateway right outside of shyol guhl? I seem to recall that in Damondreds pov and Mogedians as well they mention opening a gateway right where the bore is and letting go really fast cause holding on to the power that close to the pit of doom even just a bit can be dangeriouse.

ChubbyAiel
03-25-2011, 07:16 AM
I don't remember the details of the scene you're discussing and I'm at work so I can't check, but who opened the gateway? Was it Graendael or Moridin?

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 07:59 AM
Moridin. Or, at least, what I believe was one of his Dreadlords who delivered Graendal the summons. The gateway definitely originated in Moridin's fortress.

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 08:01 AM
On the topic of "Why hasn't anyone tried this?"

- Why, considering Moridin uses the True Power exclusively, did he not simply balefire Callandor out of existence while it sat all those years in the Stone!? For that matter, why didn't Demandred, Sammael etc do so after Rand re-embedded it in the Stone? Or why hasn't a female channeller/Forsaken - for whom it only presents a danger - destroyed it? Even Lanfear when she first appeared in the books was attempting to seduce Rand to use of the Choedan Kal - Callandor was an obvious obstacle to this, so why didn't she just balefire it while it hung helpless in the Stone?

ChubbyAiel
03-25-2011, 08:56 AM
Moridin. Or, at least, what I believe was one of his Dreadlords who delivered Graendal the summons. The gateway definitely originated in Moridin's fortress.

Cheers. The reason I asked is I was going to suggest that a gateway in the Blight might be possible if it were made with the True Power rather than the One Power. If Moridin made that Gateway, that would be the case. As for Demandred making his way to Shayol Ghul - could he have made rare use of the True Power to get there? The other Forsaken (i.e. not Moridin) don't like to use it too often but they have access to it, right? And if they do and they are faced with a choice between travelling for leagues through the Blight or just making a TP Gateway, then maybe they'd make an exception.

Obvioulsy the TP and the OP are different sources so maybe things created with them behave slightly differently?

Weird Harold
03-25-2011, 09:04 AM
I don't remember the details of the scene you're discussing and I'm at work so I can't check, but who opened the gateway? Was it Graendael or Moridin?
The Encyclopedia WOT's precis of Greandlas TGS Prologue POV:

Graendal POV -- Graendal lounges in her palace when a gateway opens, nearly taking out Thurasa, one of the Domani Council of Merchants. A messenger enters. He must be from Moridin as Sammael was the only other who knew where she is and she is sure Sammael died in his struggle with Rand. She follows the messenger into a black stone fortress in the deep northeastern Blight. The heat is intense and she cools the area around her with Air and Water. She does not understand why Moridin is focused on killing the other two boys instead of Rand. Demandred and Mesaana enter. She knows Mesaana is in the White Tower. She gets information from her agents in the White Tower and from Aran'gar with the rebels. Moridin spends his time gathering forces for the Last Battle while Moghedien and Cyndane rally Darkfriends to kill Mat and Perrin. She knows Semirhage is with the Seanchan so she knows the plans for everyone except Demandred. She thinks she would have heard from her spies if he were with the Borderlanders. Moridin enters. Mesaana and Demandred asked for a meeting to ask for help in freeing Semirhage. Mesaana had a woman spy at the meeting. Moridin says she failed to capture him and disobeyed orders in harming him, so no rescue. He flexes his left hand. Maybe the Great Lord will find some use for her. Mesaana reports that the White Tower is nearly broken. Demandred reports that his rule is secure. Moridin dismisses them then tells Graendal that her presence was her reward for good work. He tells her Rand is coming to Arad Doman to restore order. Her orders are to prevent that. She is not to harm him, but bring him pain of heart, frustration and anguish.

Moridin or one of his minions provided the gateway back to arad doman for her as well. But Lightning is correct that Greandal's visit to Moridin's fortress is NOT the only example of a gateway being opened in the Blight. Moghedien, Greandal, and Demandred have all Traveled to the vicinity of Shayol Ghul onscreen.

ChubbyAiel
03-25-2011, 09:06 AM
Why, considering Moridin uses the True Power exclusively, did he not simply balefire Callandor out of existence while it sat all those years in the Stone!?

Is it not the case that he has only recently started using the TP exclusively? He used to use the OP didn't he, before he was reincarnated as Moridin?

For that matter, why didn't Demandred, Sammael etc do so after Rand re-embedded it in the Stone? Or why hasn't a female channeller/Forsaken - for whom it only presents a danger - destroyed it? Even Lanfear when she first appeared in the books was attempting to seduce Rand to use of the Choedan Kal - Callandor was an obvious obstacle to this, so why didn't she just balefire it while it hung helpless in the Stone?

I'd have a guess at something to do with the wardings that protected it. Maybe they were set to "go off" if anyone channelled near them, so if you were close enough to balefire it, the wards would kill you. Rand had to use a pretty hefty sa'angreal to destroy Graendel's mansion (I think) so maybe destroying the whole Stone would have been beyond these channellers.

Enigma
03-25-2011, 09:09 AM
One can presumably use the One Power to make a Gateway to the Blight and SG if necessary. We know that LTT and the 100 companions plus 10,000 soliders attacked SG at the time of the sealing. By that point in the AoL ShoWings and other high tech equipment was limited. There were some around as we saw via Rand's vision but RJ himself said they were limited.

Now maybe LTT flew etc but I suspect it was by gateway for the following reasons. First his mission was unauthorised and thats why there were so few soldiers, they were all the could pull out of the light of battle against the Shadow without being noticed or weakening the defences of the light too much.

Secondly if they had to fly presumably it would have had to cross Shadow territory and would risk being shot down or at least spotted. LTT's strike seems to have caught the Shadow by surprise.

As others have said Demandred travelled to SG and there was nothing in his pov to say it was the True Power. Compare this to Moridin's & Granedal's pov in which any use of the TP is highlighted.

Going back to the original question there are very few who can go to the World of Dreams at will. The Wise Ones don't really care that much about the Wetlands or their people. Yes they should care about armies of shadowspawn but up until recently there were not large armies of shadowspawn wandering around south of the blight so they would have had no reason to look before.

The others are the Aes Sedai but we saw when the Seanchan attacked the Tower how they are not really very good at military actions. The one person who should be looking is Rand especially with LTT's memories but who is to say that he is not. BS was very careful to only show us third party views of Rand in the last book and not everything Rand does is on screen.

ChubbyAiel
03-25-2011, 09:12 AM
Thanks, Weird Harold. Where do we get this idea then, about gateways not being able to reach the Blight? Is it an inconsistency within the books, an inconsistency between the books and some extra-canonical source like RJ interviews or is this just an assertion that a TL user made a long time ago and everyone assumed to be correct? Any ideas? Do the books explicitly say that TAR doesn't reach the Blight?

Any ideas if there is even a slim possibility that the other Forsaken who travelled there on screen were not explicitly said to have channelled the OP, and therefore we might assume they used the TP? (Tenuous, I know!)

Weird Harold
03-25-2011, 09:29 AM
Is it not the case that he has only recently started using the TP exclusively? He used to use the OP didn't he, before he was reincarnated as Moridin?

Ishamael/Ba'alzamon was heavily addicted to the True Power. His flaming eyes and mouth were the final stages of Saa/True Power Poisoning. He did use the OP occassionally;like when he wished to be detected or followed.

Thanks, Weird Harold. Where do we get this idea then, about gateways not being able to reach the Blight? ... Do the books explicitly say that TAR doesn't reach the Blight?

I'm not sure. The suggestion was raised a few months ago and I couldn't find any reference to the Blight not being accessible from T'A'R. I can't use Terez' interview database, but IIRC, nothing was turned up there by those who can use it.

Any ideas if there is even a slim possibility that the other Forsaken who travelled there on screen were not explicitly said to have channelled the OP, and therefore we might assume they used the TP? (Tenuous, I know!)

The gateway in the prologue of TGS into Graendal's lair wasn't a TP gateway. RJ confirmed that the sparkling, Star Trek special effect in the prologue of tEotW when Ishamael arrived is the visual indicator of True Power Traveling. At least A visual indicator -- I think Maridin has opened at least one conventional-looking "hole-in-the-air" style gateway.

Madgod
03-25-2011, 09:44 AM
Where do we get this idea then, about gateways not being able to reach the Blight?

According to Terez's database, per RJ:
Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.
Someone earlier in this thread took a tenuous leap of logic that since we know from the dreamspikes that gateways are somehow connected to T'A'R and you can't go to the blight in T'A'R, therefore you can't take a gateway to the blight. However, as at least one POV from Demandred shows, he could use saidin to travel to Shayol Ghul.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2011, 11:19 AM
Demandred stepped out onto the black slopes of Shayol Ghul, and the gateway, a hole in reality’s fabric, winked out of existence.Pretty deep into the Blight, that.

Is there any actual evidence, apart from the speculation of the link with TAR, that it wouldn't be possible to Travel to within the Blight?

Weiramon
03-25-2011, 12:21 PM
Gateways in the Blight? Burn me, that's madness.

Next someone will say the Lord Dragon boasted he would travel to Shayol Ghul to break the seals.

New Futurist Man
03-25-2011, 01:03 PM
Weiramon: Rochaid seemed to be trying the same with Bashere that Gedwyn was with Weiramon

Intriguing.

Perhaps those slaps the other Bashere, Faile, dealt Perrin in the Stone in tSR were actually an assassination attempt!? Perhaps all the Basheres are up to their necks in the Shadow!?

greatwolf
03-25-2011, 02:53 PM
Being that there's a lot of action happening in the world of dreams in ToM, it made me wonder why no one has ever tried to go to Shayol Ghul while there. Think of all the useful info that could be gathered: ).


Firstly, I think Rand and co may have gone there in tEotW. And the DF social in TGH prologue might have occured there. That said, how useful would the information be that the FoL would obtain against the risks that they would face. I really don't see any need for sending a recce party that won't come back.

Furthermore, the blight suddenly became unnaturally quiet prior to current events of ToM. So there was no reason to search for the DP's forces there. And going to SG itself was probably too risky IMO.

Even now, scout the DF armies in the blight won't tell you much. Yes, you saw twenty million trollocs but will they still be there tomorrow? Are there more you haven't seen? What of the other shadow resources?

Its a good idea but very limited in value.

GonzoTheGreat
03-26-2011, 05:25 AM
If you see that many Trollocs in one place, then you can keep open the Gateway and start shooting fireballs through it. At best you'll kill oodles of Trollocs you now won't have to fight later on when it would be less convenient. At worst the Trollocs will run away in all directions out of range of your attacks, but also out of range of their staging area, thus upsetting the Shadow's plans.

Don't see what the downside to this would be, really.

greatwolf
03-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Don't see what the downside to this would be, really.

Assuming its only trollocs there. A scouting mission aims to establish that kind of thing - types, numbers, where. Unfortunately many things can kill a channeler in the blight apart from shadow channelers. Gholam and gray men are just two examples.

Oh, just to add to the fun, you have to decide who to trust or you have another Weiramon who'll give you false information or open gaps where it will hurt.