PDA

View Full Version : Moiraine and the Eelfin


LewsTherin10
03-29-2011, 10:06 AM
Anyone have some ideas as to what Moiraine asked for from the Eelfinn? She mentions that her bracelet angreal is one of the gifts but won't tell Mat what the other two were.

Grig
03-29-2011, 10:12 AM
Well, since she was naked we can assume she didn't ask for any other physical items. So that means she either requested knowledge, memories, or possibly ability augmentation? We don't really have a lot to go off of.

Heinz
03-29-2011, 02:17 PM
Do we know specifically why Lanfear and Moiraine were held by the Eelfinn? I cannot recall off the top of my head, other than assuming that falling through the doorway while fighting may have upset the Eelfinn. I don't think that was ever confirmed though. Which would make sense for Moiraine to wish for Lanfear to be held, and the price was Moiraine herself would also be held.

The bond with Lan being snapped.. was she Stilled or burned out, and wished to be Healed? Would that have something to do with Cyndane's reduced Power? (I know many have speculated on that, but I don't think I ever saw a difinitive answer.)

I'm just thinking here, and trying to remember our reunion with Moiraine. I've only read ToM once, though I just reached that book again in my re-read now.

nameless
03-29-2011, 03:37 PM
The implication is that the 'Finn prefer feeding off ta'veren and channelers to regular humans.

Moiraine wasn't stilled or burnt out, so the snap of the bond was likely caused by the collapse of the red stone doorway, which broke the only conduit the bond could use to link bondees across two different realities.

Lightning
03-29-2011, 03:54 PM
I don't know why the bond with Lan was broken but I don't think she was stilled, and I don't know why they were held. It could have something to do with them channeling as they entered through the doorway and that being against the 'agreements'. I realize that both Rand and Moiraine were channeling when they left the doorway in Tear, but that could be the difference, channeling while entering or while leaving. Either way I don't think there is any solid evidence to support the thought.

Also whatever deal Moiraine made with the Finns I think the price she paid was her ability in the power, which they consumed. It should be pretty safe to say that whatever she asked for beside the bracelet has to do with Rand winning TG or being protected from the DOs influence. She is a blue after all, and her chosen mission is the Dragon Reborn.

Heinz
03-29-2011, 04:37 PM
And, against my own thought, if she had been Stilled or burned out, she would no longer have the ageless features, which I don't recall were mentioned as having disappeared. So yea, that wasn't the reason.

Still, could Moiraine have asked for something so directly related to the Last Battle? Though we don't know as much about the doorway to the Eelfinn, the original questions they asked Mat were similar (though true, not exactly the same) to the Aelfinn. If those rules according to the Agreement were the same, the penalties for asking about things touching the Shadow may be the same as well. Though one could argue that her being held and reduced in power could account for the 'dire consequences' that can result.

nameless
03-29-2011, 05:32 PM
I think the deal with Shadow-related questions and Finnland is that reality is different there and it's much easier to accidentally set off a "naming the Dark One" effect even if you don't actually say the name. It's not clear if the "dire consequences" are a direct result of attracting the Shadow to Finnland or something the Aelfinn do to punish you for putting them at risk.

Lightning
03-29-2011, 05:54 PM
Moiraine wasn't stilled or burnt out, so the snap of the bond was likely caused by the collapse of the red stone doorway, which broke the only conduit the bond could use to link bondees across two different realities.

I think this explanation makes sense in a lot of ways except the fact that Lan suffered all the physical effects of a broken bond and his bond was passed on to Myrelle. If the doorway acted as the conduit that linked them then it's collaps would block the contact between the bondees and in essence act similar to a masking of the bond. I believe that for the bond to disolve completely something a lot more profound needs to happen.

Which brings me to this question. How does the passing of time in the Finnlands relate to time in the real world? Could it be that the bond was severed when the Finn began feeding off of Moiraine? (assuming time went on much faster in the Finnlands). And if so have the three oaths been lifted as well?

From the events so far my understanding has been that whatever effects the three oaths would also effect the warder bond. Unless it was a deliberate act of unswearing the oaths or releasing a warder.

However upon being healed Siuan felt the bond again but was not bound by the oaths any more.

Ok I'm gonna stop rambling and arguing with myself.

Crispin's Crispian
03-29-2011, 06:46 PM
It's pretty clear she wasn't stilled, as she still retains the ability to channel AND the *Finn were feeding off her ability.

If Rand was able to ask about the Last Battle, so could Moiraine. However, she probably didn't ask any questions because she fell through to the Eel'finn, not the Ael'finn. I don't know if the same rules apply for requests of the Eel'finn. That is, could she ask for something that would help her defeat the Shadow? What would that even be?

Weiramon
03-29-2011, 09:33 PM
Anyone have some ideas as to what Moiraine asked for from the Eelfinn? She mentions that her bracelet angreal is one of the gifts but won't tell Mat what the other two were.


A husband and a cup of hot tea.

Frenzy
03-30-2011, 12:42 AM
I think this explanation makes sense in a lot of ways except the fact that Lan suffered all the physical effects of a broken bond and his bond was passed on to Myrelle. If the doorway acted as the conduit that linked them then it's collaps would block the contact between the bondees and in essence act similar to a masking of the bond. I believe that for the bond to disolve completely something a lot more profound needs to happen.
Ok, i've done my calming exercises for the last 10 minutes (the Moiraine scenes really really pissed me off. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617)) The melted redstone doorway wasn't the only conduit into Finnland. The other door is still around, as
is the Tower of Ghenjei. Neither has to be "active" to provide a conduit, else the bond would've snapped when Moiraine went through in Tear.

No, i think all we'll get about the Bond is that it was severed because the plot needed it to be. It'll get a half-assed explanation, if we're lucky. Probably in the glossary.

From the events so far my understanding has been that whatever effects the three oaths would also effect the warder bond. Unless it was a deliberate act of unswearing the oaths or releasing a warder.

However upon being healed Siuan felt the bond again but was not bound by the oaths any more.
I have a Theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=58&theo=2137) about that.

Crispin's Crispian
03-30-2011, 11:51 AM
Ok, i've done my calming exercises for the last 10 minutes (the Moiraine scenes really really pissed me off. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617)) The melted redstone doorway wasn't the only conduit into Finnland. The other door is still around, as
is the Tower of Ghenjei. Neither has to be "active" to provide a conduit, else the bond would've snapped when Moiraine went through in Tear.

No, i think all we'll get about the Bond is that it was severed because the plot needed it to be. It'll get a half-assed explanation, if we're lucky. Probably in the glossary.


I have a Theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=58&theo=2137) about that.

I was just telling T that I need to reread the scene. Do we have any actual proof that the bond has not been reinstated? Or might it have been if Moiraine hadn't arranged for the transfer? I guess we probably will never know...

LewsTherin10
03-30-2011, 12:31 PM
I have to agree with Frenzy on the whole bond thing. It was severed because it suited the plot. If it wasn't then everyone would have know that Moiraine was still alive.

It's the only evidence to suggest that Moiraine was stilled/burned out. However, I don't believe she was. The Eelfinn wanted to feed off of her power and that's why she is weaker. The same happened to Lanfear. Moiraine mentions that she awoke at one point in Finnland and a man was there who said that she wasn't the one he was looking for. This is most likely Moridin or Slayer coming to get Lanfear.

Moiraine says that no matter how she worded her request to escape that she knew-because of the Aelfinn visit in Tear-that she could only be rescued by Mat, so she used her wishes wisely. Mat asked her what her other 2 wishes were and she smiled replying that she was going to keep that to herself.

Maybe it has to do with Thom.

Zombie Sammael
03-30-2011, 12:44 PM
"I wish for Mat and Thom to come and rescue me!

"I wish for Rand to be happy!

"I wish for... uh... I dunno, some sort of angreal I guess..."

;)

Lightning
03-30-2011, 01:00 PM
I was just telling T that I need to reread the scene. Do we have any actual proof that the bond has not been reinstated? Or might it have been if Moiraine hadn't arranged for the transfer? I guess we probably will never know...


The last scene in ToM was Lan confirming his bond being switched to Nynaeve. Was this before or after Moiraine's rescue? I don't know. Would Moiraine have asked to bond Thom if the bond had been re-established? Or did she ask because it wasn't? Or because it was and she meant to release Lan of his bond? It might yet turn out that Lan's original bond has been re-established, and we just haven't reached that point in his time line.

One more reason why the organization of this book in terms of timing takes away from the overall experience.

Crispin's Crispian
03-30-2011, 03:43 PM
The last scene in ToM was Lan confirming his bond being switched to Nynaeve. Was this before or after Moiraine's rescue? I don't know. Would Moiraine have asked to bond Thom if the bond had been re-established? Or did she ask because it wasn't? Or because it was and she meant to release Lan of his bond? It might yet turn out that Lan's original bond has been re-established, and we just haven't reached that point in his time line.

One more reason why the organization of this book in terms of timing takes away from the overall experience.
As I was writing that, I realized that the bond was definitely transferred to Myrelle, then Nynaeve (we assume). Even if it had been re-establishable, it's now been moved.

That said, I need again to reread the scene with Lan. Doesn't he just assume it was Nynaeve? Wouldn't it be hilarious if it was Moiraine? I mean...objectively. ;)

fdsaf3
03-30-2011, 05:39 PM
If it's at will, then Moiraine could have set up some sort of logical if-then sequence to pass the bond. I'm just wondering if there's a way she could have set up something like "when I go through to the land of the 'Fins, pass my bond". She went through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, so she saw glimpses of the future. Maybe she saw herself in the trance and knew to pass the bond prior to that.

I guess my main question is if the bond being passed requires immediate and conscious actions as opposed to pre-planned events.

Lightning
03-30-2011, 06:32 PM
If it's at will, then Moiraine could have set up some sort of logical if-then sequence to pass the bond. I'm just wondering if there's a way she could have set up something like "when I go through to the land of the 'Fins, pass my bond". She went through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, so she saw glimpses of the future. Maybe she saw herself in the trance and knew to pass the bond prior to that.




I think Moiraine set up the bond's passing long before she ever learned any thing from the doorway in Tear or rings in Ruhidian. From what I remember she told Lan that she had passed his bond in TGH and considering the sequence of events and the fact that she said 'before we left the WT I did this' (I'm paraphrasing here) she had set up the bond's passing before they even went to Emond's Field. So I don't see how she could have made adjustments without Myrelle's presence. Then again, what do I know, I can't channel so that could be totally possible.

Crispin's Crispian
03-30-2011, 07:07 PM
I think Moiraine set up the bond's passing long before she ever learned any thing from the doorway in Tear or rings in Ruhidian. From what I remember she told Lan that she had passed his bond in TGH and considering the sequence of events and the fact that she said 'before we left the WT I did this' (I'm paraphrasing here) she had set up the bond's passing before they even went to Emond's Field. So I don't see how she could have made adjustments without Myrelle's presence. Then again, what do I know, I can't channel so that could be totally possible.
It's actually a great question, I think. I mean, I doubt it's the case, but why couldn't she have set it up to pass the bond voluntarily at any time? We don't know how it all works, so theoretically as long as you weave it into the spirit of the other AS you could set up a switch. A simple channeling "charm" and suddenly the bond is passed.

That neatly solves the problem.

Frenzy
03-30-2011, 09:50 PM
If she passed the bond, why did Lan suffer as if the bond snapped? Or was Myrelle lying when she said she had to work to keep him alive?

Something caused the bond to break as if one member had died. "The Finns used their evil magic to do it" may be the only logical explanation.

joy.

Kimon
03-30-2011, 10:15 PM
If she passed the bond, why did Lan suffer as if the bond snapped? Or was Myrelle lying when she said she had to work to keep him alive?

Something caused the bond to break as if one member had died. "The Finns used their evil magic to do it" may be the only logical explanation.

joy.

Well she did go into that doorway knowing that she would be taken captive, and needed everyone to assume that she was dead- why not just assume that one of her requests was sever my warder bond?

Frenzy
03-31-2011, 12:13 AM
Seems wasteful.

WHY does she need everyone to assume she's dead?

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2011, 04:10 AM
Well she did go into that doorway knowing that she would be taken captive, and needed everyone to assume that she was dead- why not just assume that one of her requests was sever my warder bond?Because the severing of the bond happened instantaneously, as far as we know. But, in order to make agreements, Moiraine and Lanfear first had to be captured, and then they had to be taken to the right room.

ChubbyAiel
03-31-2011, 05:10 AM
How about Moiraine sets up the bond-transfer to Myrelle in case the worst should happen to her. Then she goes to the Finn realm after tackling Lanfear through the doorway. Now she realises that she's going to be tortured so she severs the bond herself. Maybe to "pass" the bond in such a way that no trauma is caused to the Warder she would need to be in physical contact with the woman she is going to pass it to (physical contact is needed with the man to establish the bond in the first place). By severing the bond as she did, she causes the bond to be passed to Myrelle as if she died, and Lan is traumatised but this is better than if Lan was feeling that his Aes Sedai was in mortal danger, being systematically tortured and being far beyond his help - would such knowledge drive him insane? Quite possibly, if he was aware of that suffering through the bond - look what Alanna's knowledge of Rand's wounds did to her when she first bonded him. When that Aes Sedai is stabbed by the dark-eyed Aiel, doesn't her Warder jump up and sprint off like an arrow heading straight for her because he knows how much pain she is in?

Moiraine therefore saw severing the bond as the better of two traumatic outcomes for Lan since she has already taken the precaution of passing the bond to a woman who had saved a number of Warders who had survived their Aes Sedai.

The third possible course of action was to pass the bond directly to Myrelle physically before she confronted to Lanfear. This is a "no go" for two reasons. Firstly, Lan is annoyed enough when she sets up passing the bond as a contingency plan saying he doesn't want "to be passed around like a dog" (or something similar). With Lan's sense of pride and duty he would rather be with Moiraine and face the effects of bond-severing than be packaged off to safety. Secondly, if she did pass the bond against his will before she was actually in danger Lan would know something was up and he would hang around anyway instead of going to his new Aes Sedai. Lan and Moiraine respect each other hugely and he would not ride away when he knew she was about to put herself in danger. If Moiraine rigged up the bond to force him to ride away under Compulsion that would very much be a betrayal of any friendship they had.

Far better for Lan's mental health, their friendship and their respect for each other that Lan believed she died before seeking out his new Aes Sedai.

Zombie Sammael
03-31-2011, 07:00 AM
How about this:

"I wish for Mat and Thom and that other dude to come rescue me!"

"I wish for Lan's bond to pass to Myrelle!"

"I wish for... um... dunno, an angreal?"

Zombie Sammael
03-31-2011, 07:07 AM
Seems wasteful.

WHY does she need everyone to assume she's dead?

Perhaps because something she saw in the Rhuidean rings, or an answer she got from the Finns first time, is contingent upon her return.

"The Finns used their evil magic to do it" may be the only logical explanation.

So long as BS doesn't actually shoehorn the word "magic" into the series again I don't mind.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2011, 08:14 AM
Seems wasteful.

WHY does she need everyone to assume she's dead?Because if she hadn't, then Rand would have tried to save her, as a result Sammael wouldn't have needed to mess around with the Shaido, Faile would not have been kidnapped, and then Morgase could not have saved the day by wiggling around a bit of cloth. And that is of course what is going to make all the difference during the Last Battle.

jana
04-02-2011, 03:18 PM
It's funny how long this has been argued. I don't see why it's such a big deal to believe that the bond was severed due to the doorway melting. Lan didn't feel her "die" until the door was completely done melting. It wasn't as she leapt or as she entered the doorway. It was when Rand saw that the doorway was to the ground. That's enough for me. And please don't reply that the bond didn't sever when she went through it in Tear. The Tear doorway didn't melt. There could easily be something between Eelfinn and Aelfinn realms that blocks the bond from snapping back through the other portal.


Now to why they kept Lanfear and Moiraine. I really think whoever asks that needs to re-read book 4 and book 13 because it's self explanatory. They taste good. The 'finn will capture everyone who enters their realm, as long as it doesn't break the treaty.

The Angry Druid
04-16-2011, 11:51 PM
Before we speculate on Moiraine's wishes (of which we know one, the angreal), aren't we also still in the dark on her questions from TSR as well?

Kimon
04-17-2011, 01:29 PM
Before we speculate on Moiraine's wishes (of which we know one, the angreal), aren't we also still in the dark on her questions from TSR as well?

We can't know for sure what her questions were, but she does hint at what she wanted answers to:

TSR Ch 6

First she says this:
If I cannot make him reach some decision, I may have to step through.

The italics are in the text. She wanted him to declare war on Illian, of course, but this might indicate one of her questions. Something along the lines of "Should the Dragon attack Illian?.

Of course, on the next page she also mentions three specific questions that she wanted answered.

1:
what Rand must do to survive and triumph

2:
how he can defeat the Forsaken and the Dark One

3:
how he can learn to control the Power and hold off madness long enough to do what he must

Her concern is with the consequences of questions touching on the Shadow, so perhaps asking that second question would have been impossible. But that would still leave her with the other two, which would require careful phrasing perhaps, and the question concerning Illian.

Now obviously we can't say with certainty that these were her actual questions, but they seem reasonable, and we could even guess at the answers.

1. Should the Dragon attack Illian?
Answer - He must go to Rhuidean.

2. What must Rand do to survive and triumph?
Answer - To live he must die. Or maybe something about her "death" at the docks in Cairhien.

3. How can he learn to control the Power and hold off madness?
Answer - He must chain the Shadowsworn (...Asmodean) to his will. Or maybe something vague about the cleansing.