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View Full Version : Backing up Aviendha's revelations


LewsTherin10
04-05-2011, 12:35 PM
I found a prophecy in TDR that supports what Aviendha sees in Rhudian about her and Rand's children pretty much destroying the Aiel.

"[He]...shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf."

"Destroy them with the leaf" refers to Rand revealing that the Aiel once followed the Way of the Leaf. That much is obvious. But "slay his people with the sword of peace" didn't make much sense until now. This has to refer to the Dragon's peace that Aviendha sees in the glass columns which eventually leads to the subjugation of the Aiel.

It seems hopeless at this point for her to change anything.

New Futurist Man
04-05-2011, 12:48 PM
Wow, yeah. It would also explain the re-emergence of the sword Justice, which until now has seemed a bit of a deus ex machina. The sword for the Seanchan should ensure the legitimacy of the Dragon's right to declare the peace.

Don't think anything's foregone at this point, though.

Zombie Sammael
04-05-2011, 01:59 PM
It seems hopeless at this point for her to change anything.

Then why put the sequence into the book? Granted, Avi could make the attempt and fail, but that wouldn't be a very satisfying conclusion, would it?

jacee
04-05-2011, 03:34 PM
If I was Aviendha, I would just drink that tea the women use to keep from getting pregnant. That would solve the whole problem. No kids, no prophesies fulfilled. Or....... she could tell Rand she has a headache.

Zombie Sammael
04-05-2011, 07:35 PM
If I was Aviendha, I would just drink that tea the women use to keep from getting pregnant. That would solve the whole problem. No kids, no prophesies fulfilled. Or....... she could tell Rand she has a headache.

And Rand would respond with "you know, rapid vasodilation is actually a good way of getting rid of a headache."

Avi: "Wait, what?"

Rand: "It's the Old Tongue. You like a bit of the Old Tongue, don't you?"

Seriously though I think we can assume that if it's not Avi and Rand's kids that mess things up for everyone, it'll be someone else's. Making it her kids that was responsible was just a way of making sure the message got across; literally and figuratively.

Mort
04-05-2011, 08:07 PM
I've always believed that the "slay with the sword of peace" and "destroy with the leaf" meant that the aiel as a warrior society would cease to exist in it's current form because of widespread peace some time after the last battle. But still survive in one form or another, maybe back to their leaf ways. The "only a remnant of a remnant" quote comes to mind. Which would suggest that only a minor part of it will live.

Havn't really connected Avi's visions back to that old prophecy though.

If the prophecy speaks about the literal dragon's peace, and since we know that prophecy is destined to happen (aside from dreams that are less clear) I don't see how any action of Avienda's will change the outcome.

Perhaps she can work within the boundary of the prophecy, making sure the remnant is as large as possible and in good shape (being hunted down by Seanchan isn't a very bright future). But there is no escaping I think that the Aiel is in for some trouble and downsizing.

Zombie Sammael
04-06-2011, 05:59 AM
I still think that "remnant of a remnant" refers to the Aiel as they are now, the remnant of what remained of the Da'shain Aiel after the breaking. In which case the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled because he hasn't saved them yet. But TG is coming, and soon, so perhaps Avi's vision shows what will happen if he doesn't fulfil all the prophecies before dying/beating the DO.

ChubbyAiel
04-06-2011, 08:46 AM
I agree with Mort - that passage is about the end of the Aiel as they are now, the end of their warrior identity.

It's also worth pointing out that it isn't the Dragon's Peace which wipes the Aiel out. The end of the Aiel comes about because Rand and Aviendha's off-spring can't leave their warrior lives in the past and engineer a conflict with the Seanchan, which future generations go on to lose. The Dragon's Peace only fails the Aiel because they were not included in it.

Juan
04-06-2011, 01:37 PM
I found a prophecy in TDR that supports what Aviendha sees in Rhudian about her and Rand's children pretty much destroying the Aiel.



"Destroy them with the leaf" refers to Rand revealing that the Aiel once followed the Way of the Leaf. That much is obvious. But "slay his people with the sword of peace" didn't make much sense until now. This has to refer to the Dragon's peace that Aviendha sees in the glass columns which eventually leads to the subjugation of the Aiel.

It seems hopeless at this point for her to change anything.

I agree. Makes sense. Good job. I wonder how feasible it is for Ishamael to have corrupted and change up this prophecy and somehow influencing Avi's vision.

jacee
04-06-2011, 03:04 PM
The Aiel were sent to the Three-fold land to be punished for failing the AS. They could not continue to live in their own lands. There is no reason for them to live there anymore and they are free to return to their former lands.

Maybe some of the countries that ceased to exist were the lands where they lived. They need to go back there and they can be as warrior-like as they wish. Everyone else is. The people in Dragon World are not peaceful people.I think the whole point of the prophesy Aviendha saw was that they were wrong to return to their old way of life. Since they didn't learn their lesson, they lost their right to live at all.

Lupusdeusest
04-06-2011, 11:04 PM
I always thought the remnant of a remnant would be the remnant of the Shaido that have just fled to the TFL. If the wrong remnant is saved, the wrong future happens. Or something.

ChubbyAiel
04-07-2011, 04:28 AM
I think the whole point of the prophesy Aviendha saw was that they were wrong to return to their old way of life.

Which old way of life do you mean? Are you saying that they shouldn't have returned to their ancestors' life of pacifism? Because I didn't think they did. I thought the Aiel were wiped out precisely because they picked a fight with the Seanchan.

Bonek
04-14-2011, 09:32 AM
I wonder how feasible it is for Ishamael to have corrupted and change up this prophecy and somehow influencing Avi's vision.

In my opinion it is very feasible that Bad guys influenced Avi's visions somehow (through Nakomi perhaps?) My reasons:

- Anyone with even simple skills in military can tell that the whole war between Seanchan and Aiel canNOT be real. First, the aiel are the very best in War. Their spears are killing machines. The 4 clans fought with combined armies of Randland and achieved their goal during Aiel Wars. Second, If only 1 clan (Shaido) has around 400 channelers, count how many channelers all the clans have. Thousands! So, Seanchan's damane/suldam combination is easily neutralized. Third, during her visions Avi saw that Aiel clan chiefs gathered and decided to go to war. If clan chiefs decide to strike first, be assured that they'll come up with such a plan that it would be deadly! Fourth, combine the knowledge of Travelling of Aiel wise ones into the clan chiefs plan and multiply it to hundreds of thousands of Aiel soldiers you come up with a War of seven days not hundreds of years!

"Thus was the first War which mankind saw and trembled. A new War. Some called it New War, some called it War of Travels. And the Aiel fell upon the Seanchan, and the World was riven stone from stone. The armies fled, and the Castles were swallowed up, and the Seanchans were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living among Seanchan envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory of Seanchan remained."

(from Gandus nin Cauthon alta Camora,
The Breaking of the Seanchan.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)"

David Selig
04-14-2011, 09:55 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. First of all, the Aiel may suffer much bigger casualties in the Last Battle. Second, the damane are far more experienced in using the Power as a weapon - the Wise Ones never did that until Dumai's Wells. Third, the Seanchan military is much better organised and experienced than the Westland armies were during the Aiel War. Fourth, if Tuon and Mat manage to get back under their control the Seanchan continent (as was Jordan's plan for the Outrigger novels), this gives the Seanchan Empire a big advantage in numbers since the Seanchan continent is huge and with Travelling they can easily transport troops to the westlands.

Bonek
04-14-2011, 10:22 AM
I wouldn't be so sure. First of all, the Aiel may suffer much bigger casualties in the Last Battle.

This may be true. Or not.

Second, the damane are far more experienced in using the Power as a weapon - the Wise Ones never did that until Dumai's Wells.

Never underestimate the power of Wise Ones.
- First of all they are quick learners and may learn all the attack spells of Aes Sedai in a matter of months. They had 18 years to do so according to Avi's viewings. Secondly, they are far more powerful in other ways. Just a simple idea for you. Gather 40 or 50 Dreamwalker Wise Ones and attack the dreams of all the generals, high lords, or whatever important people in Seanchan and make them sleep for days while battles are brewing. How is that for you?

- Secondly, what is the difference between damane and wise one? Damane are kept in kennels. Kennels, like barracks are easily traced and can be attacked the first moment of a War. Imagine, at the end of the first day of a War, majority of damane are wiped out. :cool:


Third, the Seanchan military is much better organised and experienced than the Westland armies were during the Aiel War.

I agree that Seanchan are stronger than Wetlanders. But you have to admit that Aiel soldiers are MUCH tougher than Seanchan.

Fourth, if Tuon and Mat manage to get back under their control the Seanchan continent (as was Jordan's plan for the Outrigger novels), this gives the Seanchan Empire a big advantage in numbers since the Seanchan continent is huge and with Travelling they can easily transport troops to the westlands.

Here is a trick. In Avi's viwings Tuon will die soon after Tarmon Gaidon. Probably it has something to do with civil war conspiracies in Seanchan main lands.
Besides, Mat will never tolerate slavery and he'll come up with something to convince damane being freed. He is ta'veren you remember? Therefore, I think that Avi's viewings are faltered.

zel
04-14-2011, 10:35 PM
Remnant of a remnant

Remnant has two meanings, although both are very close.
1. a remaining, usually small part, quantity, number, or the like.
2. a fragment or scrap.

I thought of "A remnant of a remnant" as referring to "A small number of those (Aiel) who are a scrap of what they were (Jenn Aiel)."

nameless
04-15-2011, 02:43 PM
This may be true. Or not.



Never underestimate the power of Wise Ones.
- First of all they are quick learners and may learn all the attack spells of Aes Sedai in a matter of months. They had 18 years to do so according to Avi's viewings. Secondly, they are far more powerful in other ways. Just a simple idea for you. Gather 40 or 50 Dreamwalker Wise Ones and attack the dreams of all the generals, high lords, or whatever important people in Seanchan and make them sleep for days while battles are brewing. How is that for you?

- Secondly, what is the difference between damane and wise one? Damane are kept in kennels. Kennels, like barracks are easily traced and can be attacked the first moment of a War. Imagine, at the end of the first day of a War, majority of damane are wiped out. :cool:




I agree that Seanchan are stronger than Wetlanders. But you have to admit that Aiel soldiers are MUCH tougher than Seanchan.



Here is a trick. In Avi's viwings Tuon will die soon after Tarmon Gaidon. Probably it has something to do with civil war conspiracies in Seanchan main lands.
Besides, Mat will never tolerate slavery and he'll come up with something to convince damane being freed. He is ta'veren you remember? Therefore, I think that Avi's viewings are faltered.

In the "near future" part of Avi's vision, the Aiel skirmish with the Seanchan and get kill ratios of 2:1 or better, but as time goes by the Seanchan learn more weaves and collar more channelers (keep in mind that learning to make Domination Bands will double the number of damane available to them). Meanwhile, the new generations of Aiel distort ji'e'toh, grow up in the wetlands, and get soft. If they make any effort to integrate male channelers into their society, none of Avi's descendants mention it. In other words, the Aiel keep getting weaker and the Seanchan keep getting stronger.

Bonek
04-15-2011, 10:16 PM
In the "near future" part of Avi's vision, the Aiel skirmish with the Seanchan and get kill ratios of 2:1 or better, but as time goes by the Seanchan learn more weaves and collar more channelers (keep in mind that learning to make Domination Bands will double the number of damane available to them). Meanwhile, the new generations of Aiel distort ji'e'toh, grow up in the wetlands, and get soft. If they make any effort to integrate male channelers into their society, none of Avi's descendants mention it. In other words, the Aiel keep getting weaker and the Seanchan keep getting stronger.


What is the difference between damane and wise one? Damane can't form circles of linked channelers. Wise ones can. 13 wise ones can form all women circle. Add to that a male channeler like Rand's sons and you come up with circles as large as 72 channeler in them.
Now, the fight between Aiel channelers and Seanchan channelers will look like a fight between an Elephant and lots of lots of rats. No matter how many are rats... Elephant just keep walking over them.

fdsaf3
04-16-2011, 02:21 AM
I think the problem with analyzing the Seanchan-Aiel war is that there are a lot of variables we don't know yet. How heavy are the losses suffered by the Aiel during the Last Battle and preceding/subsequent battles with the forces of the Shadow? Will the Seanchan, who have knowledge of Forkroot from the battle of Malden because of Perrin, use it to subdue the Aiel Wise Ones?

Assuming ideal circumstances where the Aiel still have great strength in numbers (of both soldiers and channelers), and that the Seanchan aren't able to use forkroot, there is still the major problem of the Seanchan military might. We have been shown time and again in the series that the damane are merely one aspect of the Seanchan's military might. The also have the advantage of raken, the Deathwatch Guard is an elite fighting force, and their ordinary military is both humongous and well-equipped. Obviously they are no slouches when it comes to war.

Bonek
04-16-2011, 05:57 AM
I think the problem with analyzing the Seanchan-Aiel war is that there are a lot of variables we don't know yet.

I agree with you that we don't know all of them. But we know enough of them that makes the whole Seanchan-Aiel war - fictional.

Examples:

How heavy are the losses suffered by the Aiel during the Last Battle and preceding/subsequent battles with the forces of the Shadow?

The losses are such that either side were on an equal footing after FOURTY years of WAR!
This means Aiel losses at TG were not as huge as many expected.
In Avi's viewings it is stated that after even 40 years of war the boundaries were almost the same as when the war started.
No REAL war can give you this result.

Will the Seanchan, who have knowledge of Forkroot from the battle of Malden because of Perrin, use it to subdue the Aiel Wise Ones?


Forkroot is a widely known trick by ToM. Everyone knows it. By this logic we can assume that Seanchan captured WT by forkrooting AS. Well, AS were the ones who discovered of the forkroot before Seanchan.


Assuming ideal circumstances where the Aiel still have great strength in numbers (of both soldiers and channelers), and that the Seanchan aren't able to use forkroot, there is still the major problem of the Seanchan military might. We have been shown time and again in the series that the damane are merely one aspect of the Seanchan's military might. The also have the advantage of raken, the Deathwatch Guard is an elite fighting force, and their ordinary military is both humongous and well-equipped. Obviously they are no slouches when it comes to war.

Damane/suldam combination is the MOST lethal weapon of the Seanchan empire. It is stated many times as such in the books. And this weapons cannot be linked like Wise ones can do. A huge advantage to Aiel.

Besides, the War was started by Aiel. So, they have a clear advantage of travelling to damane kennels and killing them all in the first day of battle.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2011, 06:31 AM
In Avi's viewings it is stated that after even 40 years of war the boundaries were almost the same as when the war started.
No REAL war can give you this result.The police actions between the Roman and Persian empires (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Persian_Wars) did show a similar pattern. Of course, you've already proven those can't have been wars. :D
Those lasted for about 7 centuries, by the way.

Oneirist
04-17-2011, 07:55 PM
Also, the future Seanchan looked like they had some pretty advanced weaponry, which the Aiel seemed to completely lack.

GonzoTheGreat
04-18-2011, 04:44 AM
Another omission in the vision, which I only realised this morning while rereading Mat's message to Egwene, is that there is no mention of the Horn of Valere. That would almost certainly end up as a Seanchan heirloom, and it would make a huge difference in big battles.

Zombie Sammael
04-18-2011, 06:22 AM
Another omission in the vision, which I only realised this morning while rereading Mat's message to Egwene, is that there is no mention of the Horn of Valere. That would almost certainly end up as a Seanchan heirloom, and it would make a huge difference in big battles.

Unless the Horn is destroyed or made useless at some point. Perhaps Rand's "living and dying" involves the Horn rather than TAR proper in some way, and Nynaeve bringing him "out" from the Horny heroes in the manner Moghedien did with Birgitte breaks the Horn. Interestingly, if the Seanchan are the ones to sound the Horn, this might also fulfill the controversial prophecy of Rand bowing before the crystal throne.

Weiramon
04-21-2011, 02:10 AM
Interestingly, if the Seanchan are the ones to sound the Horn, this might also fulfill the controversial prophecy of Rand bowing before the crystal throne.

Bah! Likely some simple farmer from some village sounded the horn already, and as long as he lives anyone who sounds that horn will just hear their own blarings.

Burn me! The way the Lord Dragon tugs at threads of the Pattern, it would not be a surprise if that simple peasant ended up conquering the Seanchean empire.

Zombie Sammael
04-21-2011, 05:14 AM
Bah! Likely some simple farmer from some village sounded the horn already, and as long as he lives anyone who sounds that horn will just hear their own blarings.

Burn me! The way the Lord Dragon tugs at threads of the Pattern, it would not be a surprise if that simple peasant ended up conquering the Seanchean empire.

Not if that simple peasant were to die. And come back. Several times.

Weiramon
04-22-2011, 01:47 PM
Pshaw! Tales worthy of a gleeman.

Might as well claim this simple peasant won a game of Snakes and Foxes while you are at it.