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Bonek
04-14-2011, 01:58 AM
Hi all,

If it's ok with you, I'd like to ask questions and debate with you guys here.

1) balefire vs a'dam
- Adelorna is one of the older (at least 150 years old) Aes Sedai in Tar Valon.
- She is the Captain General of the Green Ajah. As such she has great experience in weaves.
- Considering that 45 year old Blue Ajah member in Moiraine knows the weave "Balefire", We MAY assume that Adelorne also knows this weave. Maybe even, this weave is one of the secret weaves of Green Ajah.
- Adelorna has around 2 years to learn about the Seanchan threat. As a head of Greens I am SURE she had to learn about the most powerful weapon of the Enemy - suldam/damane combination.

However, What I do not understand is this simple fact: When Adelorna was collared in Seanchan raid, she didn't try to balefire her suldam or her a'dam.

Besides, I wonder what happens if damane balefires a'dam? What happens if she balefires suldam?

My understanding is - if damane balefires suldam, suldam's previous actions "didn't happen", i.e. - "collaring never happened". Damane is free again!


Furthermore,
what is mind boggling to me is that Moghidien, friggin' Forsaken, never tried to balefire Nynaeve when she was collared. She had years of experience with balefire and she perfectly knows its effects!

2) distances

In Great Hunt, when the Horn is blown, Rand sees Domon's face. Can anyone explain how? I thought he appeared in the Sky when Baalzamon comes. But Rand sees Domon before it.

In ToM, Olver and Talmanes are able to see the fires of Caemlin from FoM. FoM is near the border of Shienar. It is way too far.

Rand al'Fain
04-14-2011, 02:06 AM
1. Damane can NOT channel while leashed unless directed by a sul'dam. That is why she did not try to balefire her a'dam.

2.A. Must have missed that part, but Domon was at Falme.
B. Olver and Talmanes are still just outside of Caemlyn with about half of The Band. The other half went to Cairhein to help secure the country for Elayne.

Bonek
04-14-2011, 02:37 AM
1. Damane can NOT channel while leashed unless directed by a sul'dam. That is why she did not try to balefire her a'dam.


Not true. Egwene's suldam punishes her for channeling without supervision. If you do not know for a fact one thing please, refrain from writing as a matter of factly.


2.A. Must have missed that part, but Domon was at Falme.
B. Olver and Talmanes are still just outside of Caemlyn with about half of The Band. The other half went to Cairhein to help secure the country for Elayne.

- Domon was on his ship, which is in Falme's harbor, which is in eastern part of the city. At the sounding of a Horn Rand was outside the western wall of the city.

- Thanks for Olver situation clarification. I somehow thought that Talmanes was in FoM.

Mam A'Lemur
04-14-2011, 02:44 AM
[QUOTE=Bonek;147166]Not true. Egwene's suldam punishes her for channeling without supervision. If you do not know for a fact one thing please, refrain from writing as a matter of factly.

Hmmm... I will need to look it up, but from what I remember, Egwene was channeling when the suldam wasn't present, and the a'dam was hanging on a peg. When the suldam is wearing the bracelet, it forces the two into a circle, and the suldam directs the weaves when worn.

When a woman is collared, the suldam is already wearing the bracelet, true? Thus they cannot channel without the suldam's direction. So balefire isn't even a possibility unless and until the bracelet is removed. And by that time, the damane may just be resigned enough to not want to.

GonzoTheGreat
04-14-2011, 04:23 AM
What happens to the sul'dam happens to the damane ten times as strongly. So she would balefire herself to before the time she was collared, which would of course mean that she wouldn't be collared, wouldn't balefire the sul'dam, so that she wouldn't balefire herself, and ...
I think that the Pattern would tug Her braid, sniff, and remove the whole of Tar Valon from existence, just to be rid of the mess. I'll leave guessing my opinion on that as an exercise for the reader.

Bonek
04-14-2011, 09:59 AM
Not true. Egwene's suldam punishes her for channeling without supervision. If you do not know for a fact one thing please, refrain from writing as a matter of factly.

Hmmm... I will need to look it up, but from what I remember, Egwene was channeling when the suldam wasn't present, and the a'dam was hanging on a peg. When the suldam is wearing the bracelet, it forces the two into a circle, and the suldam directs the weaves when worn.

When a woman is collared, the suldam is already wearing the bracelet, true? Thus they cannot channel without the suldam's direction. So balefire isn't even a possibility unless and until the bracelet is removed. And by that time, the damane may just be resigned enough to not want to.

The statement was
1. Damane can NOT channel while leashed unless directed by a sul'dam. That is why she did not try to balefire her a'dam.

So, I was right when said that Egwene could channel when she was leashed. (She was punished when she channeled while being leashed and her a'dam's bracelet was hanging on a peg) So she could balefire her a'dam.

However, I have to admit that probably Adelorna couldn't balefire her suldam while that suldam just collared her and was holding the bracelet.

As for Moghedien, her a'dam's bracelet was often not worn. So she also could balefire her a'dam.


What happens to the sul'dam happens to the damane ten times as strongly. So she would balefire herself to before the time she was collared, which would of course mean that she wouldn't be collared, wouldn't balefire the sul'dam, so that she wouldn't balefire herself, and ...
I think that the Pattern would tug Her braid, sniff, and remove the whole of Tar Valon from existence, just to be rid of the mess. I'll leave guessing my opinion on that as an exercise for the reader.

This is from one very smart guy:
Balefire does not wipe you from the pattern, it does not destroy your soul.
Someone who is balefired goes onto normal rebirth in the circle of life
The reason that the dark one cannot catch their souls is that balefire basically kills them in the past, so by the time he's noticed they are dead, the window for catching their souls has already past.

Heinz
04-14-2011, 05:40 PM
Actually, I'd have to go back and skim the section of tGH again, but I don't think Egwene could actually do anything with the Power while the leash was around her neck. I cannot recall her actively doing anything, only holding saidar (in an attempt to do something with it, but iirc she failed).

Anyone have a quote handy?

Kimon
04-14-2011, 07:53 PM
Actually, I'd have to go back and skim the section of tGH again, but I don't think Egwene could actually do anything with the Power while the leash was around her neck. I cannot recall her actively doing anything, only holding saidar (in an attempt to do something with it, but iirc she failed).

Anyone have a quote handy?

TGH Ch 42:

Egwene stood far back from the window. She did not want any of the women below her to look up and see the glow that she knew surrounded her as she channeled the One Power, probing delicately at the collar around her neck, searching futilely; she could not even tell if the band was woven or made of links - sometimes it seemed one, sometimes the other - but it seemed all of a piece all the time. It was only a tiny trickle of the Power, the merest drip that she could imagine, but it still beaded sweat on her face and made her stomach clench. That was one of the properties of the a'dam, if a damane tried to channel without a sul'dam wearing the bracelet, she felt sick, and the more of the Power she channeled, the sicker she became.

It's possible to channel while wearing the a'dam, and not linked w/a sul'dam. It is merely painful to do so.

Kimon
04-14-2011, 08:21 PM
However, What I do not understand is this simple fact: When Adelorna was collared in Seanchan raid, she didn't try to balefire her suldam or her a'dam.

Besides, I wonder what happens if damane balefires a'dam? What happens if she balefires suldam?

My understanding is - if damane balefires suldam, suldam's previous actions "didn't happen", i.e. - "collaring never happened". Damane is free again!


Furthermore,
what is mind boggling to me is that Moghidien, friggin' Forsaken, never tried to balefire Nynaeve when she was collared. She had years of experience with balefire and she perfectly knows its effects!



A few points. This is the most important.

tFoH Ch 6:

Moiraine's comments to Rand:
When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest that I can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern. You are much stronger. Very much so.

Moiraine was not weak in the Power when she made this statement. She was not as strong as Moghedien, but it is still unlikely that she, Moghedien, could have waited for a moment for when she was not linked to Nynaeve and still have hoped to make her actions cease to have existed far enough back into the past to have undone her collaring. To have attempted to balefire her while linked would have been insane, given what we (and she) know of the negative feedback loop. Concerning Adelorna, I don't think that you should be so quick to assume that she would even know the weave. But even had she known the weave, and attempted to use it, she would have had to have done so while linked. That likely would have been bad news for both her, and the sul'dam. It might not have caused her to cease to exist also, but considering that the two of them would have been linked, it might say have caused her ability to channel to cease to exist.

Bonek
04-15-2011, 01:14 AM
but it is still unlikely that she, Moghedien, could have waited for a moment for when she was not linked to Nynaeve and still have hoped to make her actions cease to have existed far enough back into the past to have undone her collaring. To have attempted to balefire her while linked would have been insane, given what we (and she) know of the negative feedback loop.

Very good thought.


Concerning Adelorna, I don't think that you should be so quick to assume that she would even know the weave. But even had she known the weave, and attempted to use it, she would have had to have done so while linked. That likely would have been bad news for both her, and the sul'dam. It might not have caused her to cease to exist also, but considering that the two of them would have been linked, it might say have caused her ability to channel to cease to exist.

Again, thank you. Never thought of the possibility of stilling oneself.

Bonek
04-15-2011, 01:23 AM
These are my next questions. I posted them in other forums as well. But never got good explanations like I already got from here for my previous questions. (thanks)
****************************************
1) Please can anyone explain me how come Mat spent 3,5 days in Salidar when he was sent there by Rand and could not see/talk/listen to gossip or anything about Siuan and Leane? How come he has no idea that stilled aes sedai can be healed? This would greatly helped Setalle Anan.

2) Please can anyone enlighten me as to why Perrin Aybarra (after locating Malden) couldn't send his ashaman with couple of his wise aiel women to Caemlin, Tear and/or Cairhien with the simple message to inform aiel clan chiefs that Shaido are in Malden and doing all sort of trouble in western lands. The clan chiefs would ask Rand for permission to attack Shaido. Is it too simple logic? At the time, Rhuarc and Bruan? were sitting their arses off near Caemlin doing nothing. (Keeping peace in Caemlin requires at most 20k soldiers. Rhuarc had much more than that in Caemlin)

3) I wonder what is the proportion of a fan base who think Elayne is smart/reasonable/good vs the ones who think she is idiot/spoiled brat/unreasonable/ridiculously stupid.

4) Can damane/suldam combinations be linked together like Aes Sedai? If not, what will be the result of the battle between 100 damane and 100 aes sedai? If they can be linked?

Terez
04-15-2011, 02:22 AM
These are my next questions. I posted them in other forums as well. But never got good explanations like I already got from here for my previous questions. (thanks)
****************************************
1) Please can anyone explain me how come Mat spent 3,5 days in Salidar when he was sent there by Rand and could not see/talk/listen to gossip or anything about Siuan and Leane? How come he has no idea that stilled aes sedai can be healed? This would greatly helped Setalle Anan.
He did know:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 44 - The Color of Trust

"If you will excuse me?" He gave [Myrelle] a shallow bow and walked quickly to where a pretty, blue-eyed young woman was tapping her foot to the music. She had a sweet mouth, just right for kissing, and he bloody well wanted to enjoy himself. "I saw your eyes, and I couldn’t help coming over. Will you dance?"

Too late he saw the Great Serpent ring on her right hand, and then that sweet mouth opened and a voice he recognized said dryly, "I asked you once whether you’d be there when the house was burning down, boy, but it seems you make a habit of jumping into fires. Now go away and find somebody who wants to dance with you."

Siuan Sanche! She was stilled and dead! She was glaring at him with some young woman’s face she had stolen, was what she was, and wearing an Aes Sedai ring! He had asked Siuan Sanche to dance!

While he was still staring, a willowy young Domani woman swirled up in a pale green dress thin enough for the light of the bonfire to silhouette her through it. Giving Siuan a frosty look that was returned with interest, the Domani all but snatched him out among the dancers. She was as tall as an Aiel woman, dark eyes actually a little higher than his. "I am Leane, by the way," she said in a voice like a honeyed caress, "in case you did not recognize me." Her low laugh was almost a caress too.

He jumped and nearly fumbled the first turn. She also wore the ring. He moved by rote. Tall or not, she was a feather in his hands, a gliding swan, but that was certainly not enough to stop the question that kept popping in his head like an Illuminator’s fireworks. How? How under the Light? To top it all, when the dance was done, she said, "You are a very good dancer," in that stroking voice, and then kissed him about as thoroughly as he had ever been kissed. He was so shocked he did not even try to get away. Sighing, she patted his cheek. "A very good dancer. Think of it as dancing next time, and you will do better." And off she went laughing, back into the dance with some fellow she snagged from the onlookers.

Mat decided he had had as much as one man could take in a night. He went back to the stable and went to sleep, with his saddle for a pillow. His dreams would have been pleasant, except that they all involved Myrelle and Siuan and Leane and Halima. When it came to dreams, a man just naturally lacked the sense to pour water out of a boot.

The next day had to be better, he thought, especially when dawn found Vanin in the loft, asleep on his saddle. Talmanes understood and would hold where he was; Warders had been seen watching the Band’s preparations, no doubt letting themselves be seen, but no one had come near the Band. A less pleasant surprise was finding Olver’s gray in the yard behind the stable, and Olver himself curled up in his blankets in a corner.

"You need somebody to watch your back," he told Mat darkly. "She cannot be trusted." There was no need for him to name Aviendha.

Olver had no interest in playing with the children in the village, so Mat had to endure the stares and smiles as the boy trailed him around Salidar, doing his best to imitate a Warder’s flowing stride and looking nine ways at once for Aviendha. Who was still nowhere to be seen, any more than Elayne or Nynaeve. And "the Amyrlin" was still busy. Thom and Juilin were also "busy." Vanin managed to hear a few things, but nothing that made Mat happy. If Nynaeve had really Healed Siuan and Leane, she would be worse than ever; she had always had a large opinion of herself, and after doing what could not be done, her head would be bigger than a dew melon.No telling why he didn't mention it to Setalle - perhaps he didn't understand exactly what had happened to her, or perhaps he didn't want to get her hopes up.

2) Please can anyone enlighten me as to why Perrin Aybarra (after locating Malden) couldn't send his ashaman with couple of his wise aiel women to Caemlin, Tear and/or Cairhien with the simple message to inform aiel clan chiefs that Shaido are in Malden and doing all sort of trouble in western lands. The clan chiefs would ask Rand for permission to attack Shaido. Is it too simple logic? At the time, Rhuarc and Bruan? were sitting their arses off near Caemlin doing nothing. (Keeping peace in Caemlin requires at most 20k soldiers. Rhuarc had much more than that in Caemlin) Perrin apparently took his orders for secrecy quite seriously - as far as everyone knew, he and Rand had had a falling out, and Perrin had gone off on his own.

3) I wonder what is the proportion of a fan base who think Elayne is smart/reasonable/good vs the ones who think she is idiot/spoiled brat/unreasonable/ridiculously stupid.Does it really matter? I think most of us recognize that she is a caricature of a dumb blonde all throughout the series - some moments are obviously worse than others - but at the same time, she's not stereotypical. She has her own brand of intelligence, and she's quite often much wiser than Nynaeve (her constant companion in books 4-9). Egwene-bashing is much more common (though Elayne-bashing has stepped up since TOM came out, of course). I think we are meant to believe that Elayne's pregnancy is aggravating her dumb-blonde tendencies.

4) Can damane/suldam combinations be linked together like Aes Sedai?No - the a'dam prevents it (this was mentioned in TGS).

Weird Harold
04-15-2011, 08:38 AM
This would greatly helped Setalle Anan.

Mat wouldn't bring up the Healing of Stilling to anyone because he would feel anyone who had survived Stiling/Burn-out would be better off nat having to deal with the OP -- especially one who had survived as long as Setalle Anan.

3) I wonder what is the proportion of a fan base who think Elayne is smart/reasonable/good vs the ones who think she is idiot/spoiled brat/unreasonable/ridiculously stupid.

I disagree with Terez that Elayne is supposed to be perceived as a sterotypical dumb blonde; Elayne has always been presented as a very intellignet princess who takes the job of being the Heir to a Throne seriously but has no experience with the real world except for the WOT's equivalent of romance novels and action/adventure movies.

If Elayne is any stereotype, she is "The Reckless Prince" -- a young inexperienced royal with dreams of Glorius Deeds that will append "The Great" to their reign-name.

Weird Harold
04-15-2011, 08:58 AM
TGH Ch 42:



It's possible to channel while wearing the a'dam, and not linked w/a sul'dam. It is merely painful to do so.
You also have to consider that Egwene is very strong in the OP and very strong willed -- she hasn't learned to ignore pain as the Aiel do in that scene, but the basic strong will required is already there.

The a'dam clearly won't allow the amount of saidar required to generate an effective beam of balefire -- pico-seconds worth of temporal effect at best, even for someone as determined as Egwene

Terez
04-15-2011, 09:08 AM
I disagree with Terez that Elayne is supposed to be perceived as a sterotypical dumb blonde; Elayne has always been presented as a very intellignet princess who takes the job of being the Heir to a Throne seriously but has no experience with the real world except for the WOT's equivalent of romance novels and action/adventure movies.
I specifically said that she was not stereotypical, precisely because she's not actually dumb. That doesn't change the fact that she has some token dumb blonde moments, such as the veil in Tanchico.

Weird Harold
04-15-2011, 09:26 AM
...some token dumb blonde moments, such as the veil in Tanchico.

Tha't not a "dumb blonde" -- or even a dumb female -- moment. It is a stereotypical joke applied to anyone of any gender who wears a veil as a disguise and can't figure out how to breath gently.

Terez
04-15-2011, 12:23 PM
LOL, if you say so. :)

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2011, 01:04 PM
Yeah, I would agree that it isn't a Dumb Blonde Joke, but a Dumb Noble Joke instead. I'll admit that those may be interchangeable sometimes, but I don't think that is the case here.

sleepinghour
04-15-2011, 01:07 PM
Tha't not a "dumb blonde" -- or even a dumb female -- moment. It is a stereotypical joke applied to anyone of any gender who wears a veil as a disguise and can't figure out how to breath gently.

It was more of a "blind to one's own flaws" joke. Elayne's habit of putting her nose in the air was what caused her to have so much trouble with the veil, but Elayne herself couldn't understand why.

nameless
04-15-2011, 02:28 PM
These are my next questions. I posted them in other forums as well. But never got good explanations like I already got from here for my previous questions. (thanks)
****************************************
1) Please can anyone explain me how come Mat spent 3,5 days in Salidar when he was sent there by Rand and could not see/talk/listen to gossip or anything about Siuan and Leane? How come he has no idea that stilled aes sedai can be healed? This would greatly helped Setalle Anan.

He danced with Siuan, and IIRC later on thought to himself that Nynaeve would be insufferable now that she'd figured out how to do something everyone else said was impossible. It's anyone's guess as to why he doesn't mention this to Setalle, but it could be that he doesn't want to get her hopes up without knowing that Nynaeve's weaves work on burning out as well as Stilling. It's also possible that he thinks she's better off with her family than she was with the Power. She's clearly not in danger of dying anymore.


2) Please can anyone enlighten me as to why Perrin Aybarra (after locating Malden) couldn't send his ashaman with couple of his wise aiel women to Caemlin, Tear and/or Cairhien with the simple message to inform aiel clan chiefs that Shaido are in Malden and doing all sort of trouble in western lands. The clan chiefs would ask Rand for permission to attack Shaido. Is it too simple logic? At the time, Rhuarc and Bruan? were sitting their arses off near Caemlin doing nothing. (Keeping peace in Caemlin requires at most 20k soldiers. Rhuarc had much more than that in Caemlin)
Secrecy. Perrin was ordered not to make contact with Rand until his mission was complete. If he disregarded his orders and brought in an army of channelers, he would have put his wife in the middle of an all-out One Power war. Forkroot was a much better choice.

3) I wonder what is the proportion of a fan base who think Elayne is smart/reasonable/good vs the ones who think she is idiot/spoiled brat/unreasonable/ridiculously stupid.
She's intelligent, but spoiled and sheltered. And 18.

4) Can damane/suldam combinations be linked together like Aes Sedai? If not, what will be the result of the battle between 100 damane and 100 aes sedai? If they can be linked?

No, because they already are linked to their sul'dam. That's what the a'dam does: create a one-way, two person link with the person wearing the bracelet guiding the flows.

edit: the 100 vs. 100 scenario would require the Aes Sedai use men who can channel to make their cirles bigger than 13 anyway. That's something I don't quite get about Avi's vision in the glass columns. If the Seanchan can never form mixed-gender circles (the knockoff Domination Bands don't count because the women aren't contributing anything), how can they match the Aiel, who presumably have access to saidin and linking?

Terez
04-15-2011, 02:45 PM
Yeah, I would agree that it isn't a Dumb Blonde Joke, but a Dumb Noble Joke instead. I'll admit that those may be interchangeable sometimes, but I don't think that is the case here.
It becomes a bit of a dumb blonde joke because she totally just doesn't get it at all.

Bonek
04-15-2011, 09:37 PM
Thank you all for answers. Terez, tyvm for a quote. Now, I see a little clearer. But:

1) I still regret that there was not a single paragraph in Mat's POVs in 3 or 4 of the last books shedding light as to why Mat didn't tell Setalle. A simple: "Well, Setalle would be better of with her family and all" would suffice.

2) Even in forkroot vaccinated battle, Perrin needed soldiers to fight Shaido. He could do the same without asking help from his enemy - Seanchan, simply asking help from his allies. Oh well, what's done is done. Maybe pattern itself didn't allow him to go that path, just like Verin couldn't go to Tar Valon without going to Mat first.

3) I just can't stand Elayne for the following reason. Why is it so hard for her to think and ACT like a Queen?
- she was fooled by Black ajah (Liandrin) while she was a novice and almost captured.
- she was captured by darkfriend mercenaries in Cairien.
- she was captured and tortured by black ajah in Tear
- she was captured yet again by black ajah in Caimleen, while acting like a complete idiot. Instead of going to Lady Shayenne's manor house with all the channelers she's got in the Palace she knowingly goes to battle where odds were 3 vs 3. And end up with 1500 dead soldiers. Her reaction: --- Fah, shit happens.
- and now she is a Queen and black ajah is in her CELLs and she has a good plan to interrogate them. what does she do? she goes in ALONE !!! and the result is yet again dead kin members and guards.

As they say, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me"

4)

edit: the 100 vs. 100 scenario would require the Aes Sedai use men who can channel to make their cirles bigger than 13 anyway. That's something I don't quite get about Avi's vision in the glass columns. If the Seanchan can never form mixed-gender circles (the knockoff Domination Bands don't count because the women aren't contributing anything), how can they match the Aiel, who presumably have access to saidin and linking?

Exactly my point. If Seanchan enemies can form full circles and they can't. How come they manage to destroy White Tower, let alone to conquer the World?
As for 100 vs 100. Women can form full circles of 13 aes sedai. Within 100 aes sedai there is 7,5 full circles or 10 circles of 10 aes sedai. These circles would destroy 100 paired suldam/damane without problem.

So I think that Shadow guys corrupted Avi's viewings somehow.

Bonek
04-15-2011, 09:46 PM
What do you think of this theory:

Considering the POV of a gholam in Ebou Dar (gholam was thinking "what would be to wonder around without "strings")
AND
taking into account the possibility of one single gholam being free after the Breaking
AND
needing to explain how the 2nd different Evil which was Mordeth came into existence in Randland
AND
Knowing that other than gholam only Mordeth was able to squeeze himself into a hole
AND
musing what would happen to a Dark one's evil letting run around for thousand of years eating
aes sedai and common folk alike

I came to conclusion to assume that it might not be such a bad idea to think that Mordeth once was a gholam
who changed in an unexpected way over time. (Myrdraal was not made... They were side effects of heavy sex relations
of trollocs) So, what if the side effect of gholam to run around for thosands of years is - to become
corrupted evil, a different kind of evil ?

Bonek
04-15-2011, 09:58 PM
a specific question to Terez.

I've read in Brandon's official site, that he knew of a male other that Perrin who could foretell through his dreams. Well, don't remember the exact wording there, but it seemed like he asked you to find him. Did you come up with answer?

I think it's Rand. As he sees Callandor in his dreams before getting that sword. What do you think?

Terez
04-15-2011, 11:54 PM
a specific question to Terez.

I've read in Brandon's official site, that he knew of a male other that Perrin who could foretell through his dreams. Well, don't remember the exact wording there, but it seemed like he asked you to find him. Did you come up with answer?

I think it's Rand. As he sees Callandor in his dreams before getting that sword. What do you think?
He specifically said it wasn't Rand, and since he said lately that there are both male and female Dreamers among the Forsaken, Moridin is looking more and more certain. In the first place, he only said that there was another man who could see the future, in an indeterminate manner, but again, the Forsaken clue recently sets the sight on Moridin.

I'd take a crack at your other questions but I've been awake for like two days and my brain isn't really working at the moment. And I'm at JordanCon!

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2011, 03:51 AM
As for why Mat hadn't mentioned the possibility of Healing Setalle: I think that it had simply slipped his mind. He has a well known aversion against being Healed. So he is not too likely to spent all that much time thinking on it. He is willing to let others decide for themselves, so I think that if he had remembered, then he would have mentioned it. Thus I would say that "he did not think of it" is by far the best explanation.

Bonek
04-16-2011, 06:05 AM
As for why Mat hadn't mentioned the possibility of Healing Setalle: I think that it had simply slipped his mind. He has a well known aversion against being Healed. So he is not too likely to spent all that much time thinking on it. He is willing to let others decide for themselves, so I think that if he had remembered, then he would have mentioned it. Thus I would say that "he did not think of it" is by far the best explanation.

By your explanation we can assume that Mat didn't even know that Siuan Sanche was stilled, then recovered her channeling ability.

MAt Cauthon always craves for information and loves to analyze it. He has around hundred guys doing for him "search for information" tasks. I truly believe that such a guy could easily add 2 to 2 and come up with 4 with regard to Setalle's situation.

All I'm saying is that for the last 3 or 4 books we don't have a simple sentence in Mat's POV chapters explaining/musing as to why he isn't doing 2+2=4.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2011, 06:27 AM
Mat has had a lot of trouble, though, to take his mind of this detail. And it's not as if he could ever set up shop himself as healer of stilled AS, so he knows that this particular piece of information isn't very useful to him.

Actually, if he ever had thought about it, then it would indeed be puzzling why he never mentioned the possibility to her. But the very fact that he never even considers the possibility of healing in this case is a good indication that he just did not think of it.

David Selig
04-16-2011, 06:57 AM
That's typical WoT - people forgetting stuff that would be useful or just keeping it secret for no reason. ;) Probably it's planned to be a revelation in the last volume or something like that.

Maybe Mat knows from the memories that there's a big difference between stilling and burning out, so he considers Setalle a different case than Siuan and leane. Though come to think of it, he doesn't know for certain Setalle was burnt out and not stilled, unless I am forgetting something.

Weird Harold
04-16-2011, 11:25 AM
Maybe Mat knows from the memories that there's a big difference between stilling and burning out, ...

The memories Mat got from the 'Finn were from male adventurers -- nobles and officers, mostly -- who would have no reason to know anything about Aes 'Sedai Business.' Especially 'Aes Sedai Business' that Aes Sedai get nauseous even thinking about, let alone talking about.

Mat clearly knows that Healing Stilling is possible.

Jolene, Teslin, and Edesina, could well know from reports and rumors that Stilling/Burnout has been Healed -- about Rand's Aes Sedai, if not Logain, Siuan and Leanne.

Thom also knows for sure that Stilling has been Healed.

Why is it Mat's responsibility to tell Setalle about Stilling being Healed when everyone who traveled with Mat through Salidar knows or could know Healing is possible -- down to Olver and the Redarms.

GonzoTheGreat
04-16-2011, 12:33 PM
Well, a reason to say that it is more up to Mat than those others is that Mat is the only one* who actually knows that Setalle is a former AS. So none of the others would have any actual reason to mention the subject in her presence.

* With the probably exception of Olver, who undoubtedly overheard them.

Weird Harold
04-16-2011, 02:49 PM
Well, a reason to say that it is more up to Mat than those others is that Mat is the only one* who actually knows that Setalle is a former AS. So none of the others would have any actual reason to mention the subject in her presence.

* With the probably exception of Olver, who undoubtedly overheard them.
Is it really likely that Mat is more perceptive than Thom or the three AS all of whom spend more time with Setalle Anan than he does -- despite the fact she's usually around when Mat visits Tuon he's not paying a great deal of attention to anyone except Tuon.

I'd say it ought to be an open secret shortly after they left Ebou Dar.

It's most likely that the subject of Healing Burn-out is no more a topic of conversation around SEtalle Anan than open heart surgery is around someone with chronic angina unless a heart surgeon and hospital happen to be handy.

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2011, 05:13 AM
But Mat had the extra information that Setalle had had reason to think she could function as a sul'dam.
The only others who knew that were Joline and her Warders, and they have the usual AS blindness to what they don't want to see.