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enak101
04-21-2011, 02:17 AM
What is the other male sa'angreal that MAY exist according to Lanfear. I think I remember reading something about LTT using a ring? Do we know anything about this. Do you think lanfear's remarks about rand and her using both choden kal linked together being able to stand upto the creator and or dark one is realistic :P.

Also first post and some of you guys are crazy :P.

Edit: I have some ideas about Shara.
http://www.woodge.com/books/maps/map_wot_continent.jpg

If that map is accurate. Shara is MASSIVE.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090918160145/wot/images/thumb/1/1f/Map-shara.jpg/200px-Map-shara.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/wot/images/7/78/Randland.jpg This one depicts australia-land of the madmen being very big aswell as it being home to crazy channelers.

Each map shows shara being bigger then the whole westlands aswell as seanchan continent being massive aswell.

I could believe that there are sa'angreal that are stronger then choden kal if it werent stated that that was the strongest. But there could be sa'angreal way stronger then callandor and things very close to the choden kal.

So we have Shara-Massive and very secret, who knows how many angreal they have. I forget, was shara involved with stuff during the age of legends?
Land of the madmen- Apparently still having a population of all channelers. How could they not have some angreal and sa'angreal.
Seanchan continent. IT'S HUGE. Now I know females are damane and male get killed or something. But there is still other areas more south. That gives me another idea. What is it like near the blight north of seanchan. The same? Are there civilizations on the ice caps? Channelers? More angreal?

I am crazy aren't I?

Edynol
04-22-2011, 09:36 PM
I've always wondered this myself. Though it also crossed my mind that it might have been a mis-type. That Lanfear said There were only two male Sa'angreal more powerful, but what she really meant was that there are only two Sa'angreal period that are more powerful, and those two were the male and female one.

Rand al'Fain
04-22-2011, 11:50 PM
Let's see how much I remember from the "big White Book" and all 5 minutes I perused it.

1. For Shara and the AoL, the lands from the Age of Legends, other than the stedding and the island of Tar Valon, were completely warped and changed due to all the male channelers ging mad. I believe that includes Seandar and Shara.
2. Not much has actually been said on the Land of Madmen, other than that some male channelers apparently went mad there.
3. As for the Blight in Seandar, if I remember right, it said that Artur Hawking's son that went there utterly crushed the Darkspawn there, to the point where no one believes they exist (at least not anymore), or if someone catches a glimpse of one, they are not believed.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2011, 04:07 AM
The Shadowspawn were already gone from Seandar by the time that Luthair Paendrag arrived there. The idea is that the special beast (Grolm and such) of the Seanchan had proven effective at eliminating all Shadowspawn. Possibly helped by the absence of a Pit of Doom there.

And as for the sa'angreal: it is quite clear from her words that Lanfear is not counting the female Choedan Kal as one of the two. She explicitly says that there were two sa'angreal a male could use which were more powerful than Callandor, and the female half of the CK does not fit that. She also says that she is sure one of the two still exists, and that is true of the male half of the CK. She also knows that the female half exists.
So once upon a time there was another male sa'angreal which is more powerful than Callandor. It may still exist, or it may be gone.

Edynol
04-23-2011, 03:11 PM
Was it ever mentioned anywhere e;se then beside that small bit from Lanfear? Did RJ ever comment on it?

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2011, 04:06 AM
Yes, he did:
JWB: What is the second most powerful angreal for men? Will it make an appearance?
RJ: RAFO.Which, admittedly, is not very informative.
Q: In The Shadow Rising, Lanfear mentioned two sa'angreal stronger than Callandor that a male could use. Is the second one ever going to appear?
RJ: Read And Find Out.Not all that much better, though the answer is a bit longer.

Weird Harold
04-24-2011, 10:22 AM
Was it ever mentioned anywhere e;se then beside that small bit from Lanfear? Did RJ ever comment on it?
Siuan said something very similar in TDR, but suggested that a woman could use Callandor at the same time.

This time it was the Amyrlin who forgot herself, half turning toward Nynaeve before jerking herself back. "They cannot be allowed to have that." Her whisper was barely audible, as if meant for her own ears alone. "They cannot possibly take it, but..." She took a deep breath, and her soft words firmed enough to be clear to Nynaeve, if to no one two paces further away. "No more than a dozen women in the Tower know what Callandor is, and perhaps as many outside. The High Lords of Tear know, but they never speak of it except when a Lord of the Land is told on being raised. The Sword That Cannot Be Touched is a sa'angreal, girl. Only two more powerful were ever made, and thank the Light, neither of those was ever used. With Callandor in your hands, child, you could level a city at one blow. If you die keeping that out of the Black Ajah's hands – you, and Egwene, and Elayne, all three – you'll have done a service to the whole world, and cheap at the price."

Edynol
04-24-2011, 12:34 PM
I have one question. What about the Sa'angreal Rand got from the Stone's storeroom? Could that have been the one, or was that the CK? I remember him and Moiraine saying that that one wasn't quite strong enough, and Rand I think said he needed a more powerful one and got the CK when he defeated Asmo in Rhuidean. Or am I remembering wrong? I remember it being similar, a statue of a little man, but was barely sufficient for teleporting everyone to Whuidean.

enak101
04-24-2011, 06:38 PM
I love that quote from Siuan haha.

Rand never got a sa'angreal from the storeroom. He got a regular angreal which was the carving of a fat man, and i believe that was meant to be a carving of Robert Jordan. It wasn't that powerful as he almost failed at using the portal stone with it. Although that was quite a lot of people.

I am reading shadow rising now on my first re read. I remember him saying something that the CK was twice as powerful as callandor.

Terez
04-24-2011, 06:50 PM
No no, the library ter'angreal was RJ's cameo. And the fat man was the angreal which was not sufficient to the task of transporting everyone to Rhuidean.

enak101
04-24-2011, 09:55 PM
Welli wouldn't call it not sufficient :P. Yeah wasn't too sure about the cameo. How about those people at dragonmount terez :P?

Weird Harold
04-24-2011, 11:02 PM
I have one question. What about the Sa'angreal Rand got from the Stone's storeroom? Could that have been the one, or was that the CK? I remember him and Moiraine saying that that one wasn't quite strong enough, and Rand I think said he needed a more powerful one and got the CK when he defeated Asmo in Rhuidean. Or am I remembering wrong? I remember it being similar, a statue of a little man, but was barely sufficient for teleporting everyone to Whuidean.
Little Fat Man (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/little_fat_man.html)

A male angreal in the shape of a little fat man sitting cross-legged with a sword across his knees. It is carved of shiny dark green stone. It is a relatively strong angreal.

The Fat Man angreal is nowhere near sa'angreal strength, let alone stronger than Callandor

Terez
04-24-2011, 11:14 PM
Welli wouldn't call it not sufficient :P. Yeah wasn't too sure about the cameo. How about those people at dragonmount terez :P?
Mr. Ares and Co. can bite me - Ares argues just to argue sometimes, I think. He seems to enjoy it. As for sufficiency, Rand himself noted it was not sufficient - that's why it wore him out.

enak101
04-25-2011, 12:37 AM
Yeah I suppose, it got the job done but Rand had to draw on a dangerous amount of the power.

frenchie
04-27-2011, 02:33 PM
Yeah I suppose, it got the job done but Rand had to draw on a dangerous amount of the power.
You can't burn yourself out with a properly buffered angreal.

looqas
04-28-2011, 02:21 AM
I think I feel cheated if we see deus ex machining the 2nd most powerful sa'angreal in the last book.

Personally I feel the need to pull out a "new" sa'angreal to the series just cheapens Callandor plot line. It's way better to the whole story if the mystery sa'angreal remains lost.

We don't need bigger guns in the series than there already are. Choedan Kal is thankfully destroyed.

Edynol
04-28-2011, 06:33 AM
I bet if it's still around, one of the Foresaken have it.

WinespringBrother
04-28-2011, 08:09 AM
If there were 2 great male sa'angreal mentioned by Lanfear, it isn't showing up in the searches. Perhaps that was a typo that was corrected? The closest I can find is the below quote, but it implies that one is attuned to Saidar:

Shadow Rising CH: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean
To me it is no more than a figurine." Rising, she dusted her white skirts though they did not need it. When she realized he was watching her, she stopped searching the rubble-strewn plaza with her eyes, made her smile brighter. "What you used was one of the two sa'angreal I told you of. Did you feel the immensity of it? I have wondered what it must be like." She seemed unaware of the hunger in her voice. "With those, together, we can displace the Great Lord of the Dark himself. We can, Lews Therin! Together."

This quote states clearly that one of the two sa'angreal is for women:

Shadow Rising CH: 9 - Decisions
"Oh, he knows. The Great Lord knows more than you would suspect. It'is possible to talk with him. Go to Shayol Ghul, into the Pit of Doom, and you can . . , hear him. You can . . . bathe in his presence." A different light shone on her face, now. Ecstasy. She breathed through parted lips, and for a moment seemed to stare at something distant and wondrous. "Words cannot even begin to describe it. You must experience it to know. You must." She was seeing his face again, with eyes large and dark and insistent. "Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you, teach what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever." Her voice dropped to a whis-per, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even ... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!" "You are mad," he said raggedly. "The Father of Lies says he will leave me free? I was born to fight him. That is why I am here, to fulfill the Prophecies. I'll fight him, and all of you, until the Last Battle! Until my last breath!" "You do not have to. Prophecy is no more than the sign of what people hope for. Fulfilling the Prophecies will only bind you to a path leading to Tarmon Gai'don and your death. Moghedien or Sammael can destroy your body. The Great Lord of the Dark can destroy your soul. An end utter and complete. You will never be born again no matter how long the Wheel of Time turns!" "No!"


Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 11 - Ideas of Importance
He nodded. "With this, you can touch the greatest sa'angreal ever made for a woman. It's buried on Tremalking, I understand, but that doesn't matter." His hand moved to the figure of the man. "With this one, I can touch its male twin. I was told by . . . someone . . . once, that a man and woman using those sa'angreal could challenge the Dark One. They might have to be used for that, one day, but in the meantime, I hope they're enough to cleanse the male half of the Source."

Terez
04-28-2011, 08:14 AM
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far-and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that." "Stop calling me that," he growled. "My name is Rand. Rand al'Thor."
.

WinespringBrother
04-28-2011, 12:34 PM
I did a search on sa'angreal and that is why that quote didn't turn up. However, the first quote I posted, which references "one of the two great sa'angreal I told you about" also states in the same train of thought that "with those, together, we can displace the Great Lord" which seems to imply that one of the two is actually for a female, otherwise why would she say "together"? So maybe the quote you provided is a mistake/typo.

Grig
04-28-2011, 12:52 PM
However, the first quote I posted, which references "one of the two great sa'angreal I told you about" also states in the same train of thought that "with those, together, we can displace the Great Lord" which seems to imply that one of the two is actually for a female, otherwise why would she say "together"?

Because her plan was for the two of them to use the Choedan Kal to overthrow the Dark One. That doesn't imply that there isn't another stronger-than-Callandor sa'angreal for men, just that it doesn't factor into her plan. The "two sa'angreal" referred to in her Choedan Kal plan are different than the "two more powerful that a man can use". There is no reason to pit the two quotes against each other. Both can trivially be true with no conflict.

WinespringBrother
04-28-2011, 01:55 PM
Because her plan was for the two of them to use the Choedan Kal to overthrow the Dark One. That doesn't imply that there isn't another stronger-than-Callandor sa'angreal for men, just that it doesn't factor into her plan. The "two sa'angreal" referred to in her Choedan Kal plan are different than the "two more powerful that a man can use". There is no reason to pit the two quotes against each other. Both can trivially be true with no conflict.

Shadow Rising CH: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean
To me it is no more than a figurine." Rising, she dusted her white skirts though they did not need it. When she realized he was watching her, she stopped searching the rubble-strewn plaza with her eyes, made her smile brighter. "What you used was one of the two sa'angreal I told you of. Did you feel the immensity of it? I have wondered what it must be like." She seemed unaware of the hunger in her voice. "With those, together, we can displace the Great Lord of the Dark himself. We can, Lews Therin! Together."

Lanfear told Rand of 2 sa'angreal, one of which was used by Rand to wreck Rhuidean, and both of which could be used between Lanfear and Rand to displace the Great Lord. So, I guess if somehow Rand is using both of the two mighty male sa'angreal at the same time along with Lanfear, that would make both quotes true. Else perhaps, when Lanfear said "two more powerful that a man can use", she meant man in the more generic human sense. Otherwise, the quotes seem to contradict each other.

Terez
04-28-2011, 02:34 PM
Because her plan was for the two of them to use the Choedan Kal to overthrow the Dark One. That doesn't imply that there isn't another stronger-than-Callandor sa'angreal for men, just that it doesn't factor into her plan. The "two sa'angreal" referred to in her Choedan Kal plan are different than the "two more powerful that a man can use". There is no reason to pit the two quotes against each other. Both can trivially be true with no conflict.
She told him of those separately, in the same scene.

Grig
04-28-2011, 04:13 PM
Lanfear told Rand of 2 sa'angreal, one of which was used by Rand to wreck Rhuidean, and both of which could be used between Lanfear and Rand to displace the Great Lord. So, I guess if somehow Rand is using both of the two mighty male sa'angreal at the same time along with Lanfear, that would make both quotes true. Else perhaps, when Lanfear said "two more powerful that a man can use", she meant man in the more generic human sense. Otherwise, the quotes seem to contradict each other.

"The two sa'angreal I told you of" does not imply that she only told him of two sa'angreal period. She grouped the Choedan Kal together as significant because they were part of her plot. She could have mentioned Vora's sa'angreal to him (who knows why, but could have) and still been able to refer to "the two sa'anrgeal I told you of" with no vaguery to the reader that she was only referring to the Choedan Kal. No contradiction.

WinespringBrother
04-28-2011, 05:26 PM
"The two sa'angreal I told you of" does not imply that she only told him of two sa'angreal period. She grouped the Choedan Kal together as significant because they were part of her plot. She could have mentioned Vora's sa'angreal to him (who knows why, but could have) and still been able to refer to "the two sa'anrgeal I told you of" with no vaguery to the reader that she was only referring to the Choedan Kal. No contradiction.

So we are now arguing what the placement of the word "the" means ...LOL

"The two sa'angreal I told you of" does mean exactly that she told him of two sa'angreal, no more and no less. If she said "Two of the sa'angreal I told you of" then it would mean what you said.

Terez
04-28-2011, 05:49 PM
When she says 'the two sa'angreal I told you of' she's speaking of the Choedan Kal and her plan to use them with him, but that doesn't mean that she didn't tell him of other sa'angreal at all. Perhaps I should quote the whole conversation?

"I cannot trust you fully, Lews Therin. Not yet." She came closer, and he considered simply seizing her. He was bigger and stronger by far – and blocked as he was, she could wrap him up with the Power like a kitten tangled in a ball of string. "Not with that, certainly," she added, grimacing at Callandor. "There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that."

"Stop calling me that," he growled. "My name is Rand. Rand al'Thor."

"You are Lews Therin Telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I'd found you in your cradle." She laughed suddenly. "How much easier everything would be if I had found you then. If I had been free to..." Laughter faded into an angry stare. "Do you wish to see my true appearance? You can't remember that, either, can you?"

He tried to say no, but his tongue would not work. Once he had seen two of the Forsaken together, Aginor and Balthamel, the first two loosed, after three thousand years trapped just beneath the seal on the Dark One's prison. The one had been more withered than anything could be and still live; the other hid his face behind a mask, hid every bit of his flesh as though he could not bear to see it or have it seen.

The air rippled around Lanfear, and she changed. She was – older than he, certainly, but older was not the right word. More mature. Riper. Even more beautiful, if that was possible. A lush blossom in full flower compared to a bud. Even knowing what she was, she made his mouth go dry, his throat tighten.

Her dark eyes examined his face, full of confidence yet with a hint of questioning, as if wondering what he saw. Whatever she perceived seemed to satisfy her. She smiled again. "I was buried deeply, in a dreamless sleep where time did not flow. The turnings of the Wheel passed me by. Now you see me as I am, and I have you in my hands." She drew a fingernail along his jaw hard enough to make him flinch. "The time for games and subterfuge is past, Lews Therin. Long past."

His stomach lurched. "Do you mean to kill me, then? The Light burn you, I —"

"Kill you?" she spat incredulously. "Kill you! I mean to have you, forever. You were mine long before that pale-haired milksop stole you. Before she ever saw you. You loved me!"

"And you loved power!" For a moment he felt dazed. The words sounded true – he knew they were true – but where had they come from?

Selene – Lanfear – seemed as startled as he, but she recovered quickly. "You've learned much – you have done much I'd not have believed you could, unaided – but you are still, fumbling your way through a maze in the dark, and your ignorance may kill you. Some of the others fear you too much to wait. Sammael, Rahvin, Moghedien. Others, perhaps, but those of a certainty. They will come after you. They will not try to turn your heart. They will come at you by stealth, destroy you while you sleep. Because of their fear. But there are those who could teach you, show you what you once knew. None would dare oppose you then."

"Teach me? You want me to let one of the Forsaken teach me?" One of the Forsaken. A male Forsaken. A man who had been Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, who knew the ways of channeling, knew how to avoid the pitfalls, knew – As much had been offered him before. "No! Even if it was offered, I'd refuse, and why should it be? I oppose them – and you! I hate everything you've done, everything you stand for." Fool! he thought. Trapped here, and I spout defiance like some idiot in a story who never suspects he might make his captor angry enough to do something about it. But he could not force himself to take the words back. Stubbornly, he plowed ahead and made it worse. "I'll destroy you, if I can. You, and the Dark One, and every last Forsaken!"

A dangerous gleam flashed in her eyes and was gone. "Do you know why some of us fear you? Do you have any idea? Because they are afraid the Great Lord of the Dark will give you a place above them."

Rand surprised himself by managing a laugh. "Great Lord of the Dark? Can't you say his true name, either? Surely you don't fear to attract his attention, as decent people do. Or do you?"

"It would be blasphemy," she said simply. "They are right to be afraid, Sammael and the rest. The Great Lord does want you. He wants to exalt you above all other men. He told me."

"That's ridiculous! The Dark One is still bound in Shayol Ghul, or I would be fighting Tarmon Gai'don right now. And if he knows I exist, he'd want me dead. I mean to fight him."

"Oh, he knows. The Great Lord knows more than you would suspect. It is possible to talk with him. Go to Shayol Ghul, into the Pit of Doom, and you can... hear him. You can... bathe in his presence." A different light shone on her face, now. Ecstasy. She breathed through parted lips, and for a moment seemed to stare at something distant and wondrous. "Words cannot even begin to describe it. You must experience it to know. You must." She was seeing his face again, with eyes large and dark and insistent. "Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you, teach what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, even Asmodean, once he has taught you all you need to know. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever." Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!"
Obviously we're not dealing with a typo here.

WinespringBrother
04-29-2011, 07:46 AM
It seems she spoke of 3 sa'angreal then (besides Callandor) so her referencing of "the two" makes her latter statement confusing, as if they were the only two. Never mind, carry on. So where is this mystery 3rd sa'angreal? In Ishydin's greedy hands, perhaps? Maybe it's that weird spire in the Black Hills...

Terez
04-29-2011, 07:52 AM
It seems she spoke of 3 sa'angreal then (besides Callandor) so her referencing of "the two" makes her latter statement confusing, as if they were the only two.
Nah, just the matched pair which Lanfear fantasizes over when she touches herself.

So where is this mystery 3rd sa'angreal? In Ishydin's greedy hands, perhaps? Maybe it's that weird spire in the Black Hills...Since Lanfear wasn't sure if it existed any longer I always assumed it didn't. But if it does turn up I do expect it to be in Moridin's hands. Kinda cheesy at the last minute, but since RJ foreshadowed it, it's all good. :) I get the feeling he planted details like this quite often, maybe to work with later, maybe not.

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 08:05 AM
If we are sure there is a second sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor (the first being the male Choedan Kal), might I suggest the Ring of Tamyrlin as a likely candidate? I'm not sure if it will turn up, just that it's a possibility as being a sa'angreal more powerful than the Sword That Ain't.

Terez
04-29-2011, 09:35 AM
It's been suggested, along with several artifacts known to still exist.

FelixPax
05-03-2011, 07:23 AM
If we are sure there is a second sa'angreal more powerful than Callandor (the first being the male Choedan Kal), might I suggest the Ring of Tamyrlin as a likely candidate? I'm not sure if it will turn up, just that it's a possibility as being a sa'angreal more powerful than the Sword That Ain't.

Considering the Choedan Kal does not exist, anymore. Scratch that off the list.

The Spire or Lance (depending on character POV: Bayle Domon, Queen Ethenielle), in the Black Hills near the Borderlands is the best bet.

Separately, Mat Cauthon possibly saw a control ter'angreal for this same Black Hills sa'angreal Spire found in Rhuidean earlier:


A clear lane led from each street Mat could see, straight to the columned rings, but in the spaces between, statues stood haphazardly, life-sized down to half that, in stone or crystal or metal, set right down on the pavement. All among them were . . . He did not know what to call them, at first. A flat silvery ring, ten feet across and thin as a blade. A tapering crystal plinth a pace tall that might have held one of the smaller statues. A shiny black metal spire, narrow as a spear and no longer, yet standing on end as if rooted. Hundreds of things, maybe thousands, in every shape imaginable, every material imaginable, dotting the huge plaza with no more than a dozen feet between any two.

It was the black metal spear, so unnaturally erect, that suddenly told him what they must be. Ter’angreal. Some sort of things to do with the Power, anyway. Some of them had to be. That twisted stone doorway in the Stone’s Great Holding had resisted falling over, too.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" - Mat Cauthon point of view


As for the Ring of Tamyrlin, being a good possibility?

No, no, no. It's as clear as Callandor's pure crystal razor in color.


What 'current title' is a corrupted form of the word: "Tamyrlin"?

Amrylin, as in the Amrylin Seat.

Who is wearing what is akin to the 'Ring of Tamyrlin' now?

Mat Cauthon.

FelixPax
05-03-2011, 07:29 AM
Nah, just the matched pair which Lanfear fantasizes over when she touches herself.

Since Lanfear wasn't sure if it existed any longer I always assumed it didn't.

Feeling I have is, Mierin did not visit the remote section of the Black Hills where the sa'angreal Spire or Lance is located.

No population base or village is even near the Spire, according to Queen Ethenielle.

Secondly, Mierin did not really have a long amount of time to view Rhuidean, where many items of the power were located. Possibly a ter'angreal control for the Spire in the Black Hills.

Zombie Sammael
05-03-2011, 08:57 AM
Considering the Choedan Kal does not exist, anymore. Scratch that off the list.

The Spire or Lance (depending on character POV: Bayle Domon, Queen Ethenielle), in the Black Hills near the Borderlands is the best bet.

Separately, Mat Cauthon possibly saw a control ter'angreal for this same Black Hills sa'angreal Spire found in Rhuidean earlier:





As for the Ring of Tamyrlin, being a good possibility?

No, no, no. It's as clear as Callandor's pure crystal razor in color.


What 'current title' is a corrupted form of the word: "Tamyrlin"?

Amrylin, as in the Amrylin Seat.

Who is wearing what is akin to the 'Ring of Tamyrlin' now?

Mat Cauthon.


The Choedan Kal did exist at the point in the story where Lanfear made her (somewhat ambiguous) comments about the potential male sa'angreal.

Mat's ring being the Ring of Tamyrlin is an interesting idea, however. The BWB states the Ring is a powerful sa'angreal, but it's not like Mat would have any way to know that. The only thing is, how would Lanfear know about its continued existence?

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2011, 09:49 AM
Mat's ring being the Ring of Tamyrlin is an interesting idea, however. The BWB states the Ring is a powerful sa'angreal, ...First the latter: can you give an actual quote supporting that?
What I can find in my BWB is nowhere near sufficient to draw such a conclusion.

And while it is not said explicitly, in the scene where Mat buys the ring it is strongly suggested that the ring was made by the jeweller himself.

Zombie Sammael
05-03-2011, 10:30 AM
First the latter: can you give an actual quote supporting that?
What I can find in my BWB is nowhere near sufficient to draw such a conclusion.

And while it is not said explicitly, in the scene where Mat buys the ring it is strongly suggested that the ring was made by the jeweller himself.

I'm sorry Gonzo, I no longer have my BWB, I lost it years ago, but I was sure there was some quote about how the leader of the AS in the AOL was called Tamyrlin after the first man who learned to channel and that the Ring was rumoured to be a powerful sa'angreal. I may be misrecalling, and I apologise if I am.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2011, 11:01 AM
The Hall of the Servants regulated the Aes Sedai, setting and enforcing the rules that pertained to channelers. Since Aes Sedai of this time often worked in teams, detailed rules of conduct and procedure were essential to the guild. All law and punishment for Aes Sedai were handled within the guild. Little record survives as to detail the actual bureaucracy, save that the individual Aes Sedai who was elected to head it was usually styled as First among Servants and sat on the High Seat. There are records that, toward the end of the age, Lews Therin Telamon, who was then First Among Servants, wore the ring of the Tamyrlin and summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. The description of the ring and exact nature of the nine rods have been lost, but it seems clear that the Aes Sedai, through the Hall of the Servants, wielded great power and were accorded a very high level of prestige and respect.I think that your memory misoverestimates the available evidence. There isn't even actual evidence that "Tamyrlin" was used as a title, from what I recall, though I haven't checked the other books for that.

greatwolf
05-03-2011, 05:35 PM
I thought Callandor was unbuffered meaning that the amount of OP it provides is not regulated. You can overdraw with it. That would make it difficult to classify it among other saangreal that are properly buffered.

I believe most of the references being made to Callandor's strength is based on what it has being known to achieve safely since there is really no limit to what you'll take in unless its in a circle.

Even Lanfear's comments about the sword cannot be taken as about truth IMO since she's female and has never used it. How far can the sword take someone like LT? And certainly Suian's comment likely come from a book. So she could be wrong about what she thinks she knows.

FelixPax
05-03-2011, 07:34 PM
There isn't even actual evidence that "Tamyrlin" was used as a title, from what I recall, though I haven't checked the other books for that.

What did I write?

What 'current title' is a corrupted form of the word: "Tamyrlin"?

Never claimed Tamyrlin was a title during the Age of Legends. However the Ring of Tamyrlin name was a symbol of power. Tamyrlin is tied to a "seat", a seat of authority.

Elan Morin grimaced. “Look at you,” he said scornfully. “Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch. But it is not enough. You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen. But I am the greater, now. I will not let you die without knowing that. When you die, your last thought will be the full knowledge of your defeat, of how complete and utter it is. If I let you die at all.”


The Eye of the World, Prologue - Lews Therin point of view, with Elan Morin/Ishamael/Moridin talking

It is no surprise those who founded and built the White Tower over 3,100+ years prior, sought to establish their authority by using a similar name to that of the 'First among Servants': Tamrylin Seat


The Ring of Tamyrlin, is a symbol of authority & of power. It also was the VERY thing which caught Tuon's eye in Ebou Dar.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2011, 03:53 AM
The Ring of Tamyrlin, is a symbol of authority & of power. It also was the VERY thing which caught Tuon's eye in Ebou Dar.And why did it catch her attention? Not because she recognised it as the Ring of Tamyrlin, now was it?
“You know that damane can tell fortunes?” She gave him a stern look, likely expecting him to call it superstition, but he nodded curtly. Some Aes Sedai could Foretell the future. Why not a damane “I asked Lidya to tell mine just before I landed at Ebou Dar. This is what she said. ‘Beware the fox that makes the ravens fly[b], for he will marry you and carry you away. Beware the man who remembers Hawkwing’s face, for he will marry you and set you free. Beware the man of the red hand, for him you will marry and none other.’ [b]It was your ring that caught my eye first.” He thumbed the long ring unconsciously, and she smiled. A small smile, but a smile. “A fox apparently startling two ravens into flight and nine crescent moons. Suggestive, wouldn’t you say? And just now you fulfilled the second part, so I knew for certain it was you.” Selucia made a sound in her throat, and Tuon waggled fingers at her. The bosomy little woman subsided, adjusting her head scarf, but the look she shot at Mat should have been accompanied by a dagger in her hand.BTW, Felix, have you noticed that the crescent moon is Lanfear's sigil?
Interesting, that, isn't it?

Schnucker
05-04-2011, 04:02 AM
Also the sigil of Tear if memory serves...

Zombie Sammael
05-04-2011, 01:11 PM
I think that your memory misoverestimates the available evidence. There isn't even actual evidence that "Tamyrlin" was used as a title, from what I recall, though I haven't checked the other books for that.

Gah! I am sure I have read something about the ring being a powerful sa'angreal. Maybe one of the later glossaries? That's definitely the BWB quote but I'm sure I've read something else about the Ring... dammit!

Zombie Sammael
05-04-2011, 01:15 PM
What did I write?



Never claimed Tamyrlin was a title during the Age of Legends. However the Ring of Tamyrlin name was a symbol of power. Tamyrlin is tied to a "seat", a seat of authority.



It is no surprise those who founded and built the White Tower over 3,100+ years prior, sought to establish their authority by using a similar name to that of the 'First among Servants': Tamrylin Seat


The Ring of Tamyrlin, is a symbol of authority & of power. It also was the VERY thing which caught Tuon's eye in Ebou Dar.

Tamyrlin breaks down very easily to "t" and "amyrlin". "T" is used in the Old Tongue as a way of linking two things together, as in Perrin t'Bashere Ayabara. Therefore "Tamyrlin" = "t'Amyrlin", possibly. Not entirely sure what the meaning of "t" would be but it implies, in Perrin's case, that he is married to a Bashere. The Tamyrlin is married to the Amyrlin?

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
Gah! I am sure I have read something about the ring being a powerful sa'angreal. Maybe one of the later glossaries? That's definitely the BWB quote but I'm sure I've read something else about the Ring... dammit!I know that there has been speculation about it before, both on this board and elsewhere. It may be that you read such a discussion, and something stuck in your memory.

Crispin's Crispian
05-04-2011, 03:30 PM
I know that there has been speculation about it before, both on this board and elsewhere. It may be that you read such a discussion, and something stuck in your memory.

How about this:


In [TEOTW: Prologue, Dragonmount, xi], Ishy visits LTT after he kills his family:

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you!"

Scott Mocklin tells us that the new glossary in To The Blight (vol. 2 of the YA version of TEOTW) has the following entry:

Ring of Tamyrlin (TAHM-ehr-lin): a legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

Which pretty much matches previous speculation about the word's origin.

From here (http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html).

Zombie Sammael
05-04-2011, 04:47 PM
How about this:




From here (http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.4_yore/2.4.06_tamyrlin.html).

THAT's what I was on about. Thanks Crispin's Crispian! I knew it was from a glossary or the BWB somewhere. Questionable canonicity though, although it was written while RJ was still alive so presumably is the Word of God.

Crispin's Crispian
05-04-2011, 06:11 PM
THAT's what I was on about. Thanks Crispin's Crispian! I knew it was from a glossary or the BWB somewhere. Questionable canonicity though, although it was written while RJ was still alive so presumably is the Word of God.

Y/W. Please, call me Crispian.

I would consider it canon as much as any other glossary, assuming RJ and/or Harriet approved the split books. It's vague enough that it could also just be a nod to HCFFs who came up with a bunch of ideas.

FelixPax
05-04-2011, 11:55 PM
BTW, Felix, have you noticed that the crescent moon is Lanfear's sigil?
Interesting, that, isn't it?

That's separate topic... "moon symbolism"

Mierin is to the "moon", as Rand is to the "sun".


Multiple Silver Moons, Comets, Stars are some of Valan Luca's symbols too.


Remember?


A holiday called, "Feast of the Half Moon"? (ACoS)
Leane's horse named "Moonflower"? (TFoH)
Mierin's wolf name "Moonhunter" given by Hopper? (TDR)
Nynaeve rides a pure white horse named "Moonlight", from the stables of Tear? {TGS)



Or how about:

A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 24 'Flight Down the Arinelle'--Rand pov, Bayle Domon speaking

Artur pendragon
05-05-2011, 03:32 AM
Feeling I have is, Mierin did not visit the remote section of the Black Hills where the sa'angreal Spire or Lance is located.

No population base or village is even near the Spire, according to Queen Ethenielle.

Secondly, Mierin did not really have a long amount of time to view Rhuidean, where many items of the power were located. Possibly a ter'angreal control for the Spire in the Black Hills.

If I remember correctly the ring was a test ring from a gold shop, there was nothing special about the ring as the jeweler made it himself. Mat commented on this.(could not find the quote off hand will look more in the morning and post if I find it know it was in ACOS chapter 14 or 15 when he first got the ring.)

The Unreasoner
05-05-2011, 03:34 AM
I am curious...
Exactly what evidence are we using to identify Mat's ring as the Ring of Tamyrlin?

Also, I do not feel that finding two vertical rods of different dimensions demonstrates a sa'angreal and its access key.

My personal thought about the unusual artifacts (death spear, moon bowl) was that they were ter'angreal of immense size damaged by the Breaking or the War of Power. Lanfear indicates to the Dragon that ter'angral so damaged have unusual properties (the half-melted access key).

Darth-Andrea
05-05-2011, 10:39 PM
Well reading though this thread I notice one known artifact that has been over looked as a possibility.

It was mentioned in The Great Hunt Chapter 9 Leavtakings that Bayle Domon has in his collection "an ivory carving of a man holding a sword" it said in that chapter that the man Domon bought it from said it felt warm in the hand if held long enough. But that none of his men or he himself ever felt that.

I believe this statue is that Sa`Angreal that Lanfear mentioned and believed lost.



Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Terez
05-05-2011, 11:08 PM
At the very least it was an angreal. In fact, I'd suspect that over a sa'angreal, since the regular ones are generally smaller and personalized.

Darth-Andrea
05-05-2011, 11:16 PM
At the very least it was an angreal. In fact, I'd suspect that over a sa'angreal, since the regular ones are generally smaller and personalized.

Could be also the item and it's location in the book also correlates to a tweet from Brandon Sanderson about a reference made in TGH near this part of the book that would reflect in AMOL.



Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Terez
05-05-2011, 11:20 PM
Can't be, since I never theorized about it really. Has to be something that I 'sniffed at', pondering its meaning (and most likely on Twitter, since I doubt Brandon hangs out at forums much).

Darth-Andrea
05-05-2011, 11:35 PM
Can't be, since I never theorized about it really. Has to be something that I 'sniffed at', pondering its meaning (and most likely on Twitter, since I doubt Brandon hangs out at forums much).

Well you did bring this up in your thread in the Re-read section.

Brandon's 'innocent' foreshadowing (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5070)

It's this statue I believe Brandon was referring to.



Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Weird Harold
05-05-2011, 11:43 PM
It was mentioned in The Great Hunt Chapter 9 Leavtakings that Bayle Domon has in his collection "an ivory carving of a man holding a sword" ... [/COLOR][/B]


A small, age-dark ivory carving of a man holding a sword. The fellow who sold it claimed if you held it long enough you started to feel warm. Domon never had, and neither had any of the crew he let hold it, but it was old, and that was enough for Domon.

Almost certainly something keyed to Saidin, but probably NOT the "second most powerful" sa'angreal. In general, angreal and sa'angreal seem to be sized proportional to their strength.

The lost "second most powerful" is probably somewhere between Callandor and the male Choedan Kal in size and weight, Domon's lost ivory carving is not.

Darth-Andrea
05-05-2011, 11:54 PM
Almost certainly something keyed to Saidin, but probably NOT the "second most powerful" sa'angreal. In general, angreal and sa'angreal seem to be sized proportional to their strength.

The lost "second most powerful" is probably somewhare between Callandor and the male Choedan Kal in size and weight, Domon's lost ivory carving is not.

Actually that's wrong. In The Shadow Rising when Rand first reveals the fat little man Angreal to Egwene and Moiraine Egwene says "Is It Strong Enough, Size And Shape Are No Guide To A Angreal's Strength" If she was wrong I would believe with Moiraine standing there she would have corrected the statement if it were false.

For example Vora's Sa`Angreal, The White Wand, isn't that large but it's got one hell of a kick to it. That was made clear in The Gathering Storm. For it's strength it's only 12 to 13 inches long and as it is called a Wand I wouldn't expect it to be more than a inch to a inch and a half thick at the most, and I would actually assume it to be less.





Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Terez
05-06-2011, 12:10 AM
Well you did bring this up in your thread in the Re-read section.
The angreal? Where? Anyway, it was this post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=140112#poststop) of that thread I was referring to. It has to be something I've discussed before.

Darth-Andrea
05-06-2011, 12:17 AM
The angreal? Where? Anyway, it was this post (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=140112#poststop) of that thread I was referring to. It has to be something I've discussed before.

Well perhaps I am wrong, I don't think I am, give the history of miss direction and side stepped answers that have been given in the past there is a chance I am right. But give the way he phrased it if you have ever mentioned this item somewhere he has seen it that could be what he was referring to.

I hope this doesn't come off argumentative I don't want to be taken that way. But as text can't share inflections words on a screen can come off the wrong way at times :D







Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 12:28 AM
... Egwene says "Is It Strong Enough, Size And Shape Are No Guide To A Angreal's Strength" If she was wrong I would believe with Moiraine standing there she would have corrected the statement if it were false.

She might have, providing she thought it was a point worth pursuing and that she knew it was false. It wouldn't be the first time that the characters were mistaken about something that "everybody knows."

According to the Encyclopedia WOT's "Items" page, there are ten known angreal and three known sa'angreal. Only one of the angreal definitely violates the general trend of bigger is better, and Greandla's gold ring is only one of two angreal made of metal, both of which are listed as "relatively powerful."

For example Vora's Sa`Angreal, The White Wand, isn't that large but it's got one hell of a kick to it. That was made clear in The Gathering Storm. For it's strength it's only 12 to 13 inches long and as it is called a Wand I wouldn't expect it to be more than a inch to a inch and a half thick at the most, and I would actually assume it to be less. [/COLOR][/B]

The "White Fluted Wand" aka "Vora's Sa'angreal" is "the length of a woman's forearm." It is the smallest of the three known sa'angreal, so the general trend of bigger is better holds true for that limited sample. It is also larger than any of the angreal, although it might not be more massive than some like th e stone figurine Egwene found in the Panarch's Museum.

Whatever Egwene and Moiraine might have been taught in the White Tower, the empircal evidence disagrees with them.

Also consider this:

If power isn't proportional to size, why not make the Chodean Kal sa'angreal the size of the access keys and do away with that whole remote access problem?

Darth-Andrea
05-06-2011, 12:47 AM
She might have, providing she thought it was a point worth pursuing and that she knew it was false. It wouldn't be the first time that the characters were mistaken about something that "everybody knows."

According to the Encyclopedia WOT's "Items" page, there are ten known angreal and three known sa'angreal. Only one of the angreal definitely violates the general trend of bigger is better, and Greandla's gold ring is only one of two angreal made of metal, both of which are listed as "relatively powerful."



The "White Fluted Wand" aka "Vora's Sa'angreal" is "the length of a woman's forearm." It is the smallest of the three known sa'angreal, so the general trend of bigger is better holds true for that limited sample. It is also larger than any of the angreal, although it might not be more massive than some like th e stone figurine Egwene found in the Panarch's Museum.

Whatever Egwene and Moiraine might have been taught in the White Tower, the empircal evidence disagrees with them.

Also consider this:

If power isn't proportional to size, why not make the Chodean Kal sa'angreal the size of the access keys and do away with that whole remote access problem?

While you make a good argument your forgetting the Era these things were made. In the AOL Art and Ascetics even in their weapons was ever important to them. Also The ChoDean Kal was meant to both be a Weapon and a Symbol. Consider they were being made to be powerful yes but also when they were used and won the war as had been planned they would have been symbols of victory hence the size. Also their size wasn't I believe the entire reason for the access keys. I believe those were created separately so that they could act as a two fold buffer. They included the buffer in the access key as with all Angreal and Sa`Angreal but the separation by distance would act as a second perhaps lesser buffer as well.

Vora's Wand while small was the strongest Sa`Angreal the white tower possessed So there are more than that one. Though the others have not been seen on screen as it were. We know there are more because more are mentioned in the scene in The Dragon Reborn where Mat is healed.

Again if the Wand is the strongest the tower has then by your thinking the others must be smaller than the wand. However how could they be Sa`Angreal if their smaller. Moiraine's Angreal is roughly the length of her hand and it's considered to be a mild to almost weak Angreal.

Callandor was designed to be a 1 to 1 scale sword it was intended to be a weapon so ascetically it was designed to look like a weapon. The Angreal used by the Nynaeve, Elayne, Aviendha and the Windfinder's when they used the Bowl Of The Winds were all small but fairly powerful. Cadsuane has at least 1 Angreal and it isn't large either though fairly strong. You just can not equate size with a Angreal or Sa`Angreal's strength.




Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 01:16 AM
Again if the Wand is the strongest the tower has then by your thinking the others must be smaller than the wand. However how could they be Sa`Angreal if their smaller. Moiraine's Angreal is roughly the length of her hand and it's considered to be a mild to almost weak Angreal.

Sa'angreal aren't just "very strong angreal" there is a difference in function. (IIRC, Rand draws the OP through the fat man, but channels into Callandor.) A small sa'angreal may well be more powerful than any angreal of any size, but still be inherently weaker than a larger, denser, or more massive sa'angreal.

There is plenty of "room" beneath Vora's Sa'angreal's size/mass/density for weaker sa'angreal.

There is also plenty of "room" above Vora's Sa'angreal and below Callandor for other sa'angreal that the White Tower does NOT have. Being the strongest the White Tower possesses is no guarantee that it would have been considered a powerful sa'angreal in the AOL/War of Power.

I doubt that artistic merit and/or post-victory monuments were a consideration to a war-time manufacturing project for a weapon system that was immobile. If the same power levels had been possible in the size of the access keys, they would have made them the size of the access keys so they couldn't be as easily overrun and captured. It was bad enough that the production facility for access keys was over-run and the keys hidden/lost.

Darth-Andrea
05-06-2011, 01:37 AM
Sa'angreal aren't just "very strong angreal" there is a difference in function. (IIRC, Rand draws the OP through the fat man, but channels into Callandor.) A small sa'angreal may well be more powerful than any angreal of any size, but still be inherently weaker than a larger, denser, or more massive sa'angreal.

There is plenty of "room" beneath Vora's Sa'angreal's size/mass/density for weaker sa'angreal.

There is also plenty of "room" above Vora's Sa'angreal and below Callandor for other sa'angreal that the White Tower does NOT have. Being the strongest the White Tower possesses is no guarantee that it would have been considered a powerful sa'angreal in the AOL/War of Power.

I doubt that artistic merit and/or post-victory monuments were a consideration to a war-time manufacturing project for a weapon system that was immobile. If the same power levels had been possible in the size of the access keys, they would have made them the size of the access keys so they couldn't be as easily overrun and captured. It was bad enough that the production facility for access keys was over-run and the keys hidden/lost.



You recalled incorrectly. All Angreal and Sa`Angreal operate the exact same way you reach through them to the source. This is the same for both Men and Women. You don't Channel into them you reach for the source through them.

It's Ter`Angreal, and not all of those, that need to be channeled into.

One final example which I hope proves my point.

In Towers Of Midnight when Mat Thom and Noal find Moiraine she has on only "a small dark ivory bracelet in the shape of an acrobat bent around backwards so his wrists are tied to his ankles" The Eelfinn tell them that it is a Strong Angreal almost Sa`Angreal strength.

If your thinking is correct this bracelet would have to be more like Wonder Woman's Bracelets in size if not bigger to be that strong. However it's a small bracelet. Again size doesn't matter when it comes to strength.




Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Rand al'Fain
05-06-2011, 03:08 AM
You recalled incorrectly. All Angreal and Sa`Angreal operate the exact same way you reach through them to the source. This is the same for both Men and Women. You don't Channel into them you reach for the source through them.

It's Ter`Angreal, and not all of those, that need to be channeled into.

One final example which I hope proves my point.

In Towers Of Midnight when Mat Thom and Noal find Moiraine she has on only "a small dark ivory bracelet in the shape of an acrobat bent around backwards so his wrists are tied to his ankles" The Eelfinn tell them that it is a Strong Angreal almost Sa`Angreal strength.

If your thinking is correct this bracelet would have to be more like Wonder Woman's Bracelets in size if not bigger to be that strong. However it's a small bracelet. Again size doesn't matter when it comes to strength.




Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gifOff topic, but I can't help but be distracted by your sig. Isn't that from Koi Koi Seven?

Darth-Andrea
05-06-2011, 03:47 AM
Off topic, but I can't help but be distracted by your sig. Isn't that from Koi Koi Seven?

No Strawberry Panic :D




Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 03:52 AM
One final example which I hope proves my point.

Since my point is that it is a general principle, and NOT an absolute rule, it does NOT prove your point.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 08:46 AM
Maybe you're both right. An angreal must have at least a buffering component (?) and the component that magnifies the OP draw. And we've seen that angreal can be from different material.

What we do not know is how the material used affects the function of the device. Would an ivory angreal of same size as a crystal one work equivalently? I doubt it.

Crispin's Crispian
05-06-2011, 10:51 AM
Maybe you're both right. An angreal must have at least a buffering component (?) and the component that magnifies the OP draw. And we've seen that angreal can be from different material.

What we do not know is how the material used affects the function of the device. Would an ivory angreal of same size as a crystal one work equivalently? I doubt it.

I agree. I don't think we really have enough to go on to know how much size vs. material vs. shape really affect the power draw. We can draw a really general inference from the limited examples we've seen, but there are too many variables at play.

I kind of hope we don't see many more sa'angreal. Kind of cheapens everything.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 11:36 AM
What we do not know is how the material used affects the function of the device. Would an ivory angreal of same size as a crystal one work equivalently? I doubt it.

I did note that of the ten known angreal, there is one, and possibly two, that go against the general trend -- Greandal's Gold Ring and Nyneave's Bracelet and Rings -- but both are made of metal instead of less dense/conductive materials.

If 80% of known angreal and 100% of known sa'angreal follow the general principle of bigger is more powerful, the missing second most powerful is 80%+ more likely to be bigger than Callandor and smaller than the Chodean Kal.

At the very least, it will be metal, crystaline, or some other denser or more conductive material than the known examples.

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2011, 11:44 AM
Of course, it is possible that the ultra-powerful one inch square paper sa'angreal didn't survive.

natiels
05-06-2011, 12:02 PM
Of course, it is possible that the ultra-powerful one inch square paper sa'angreal didn't survive.

or that someone from the brown ajah is using it as a super cool AOL bookmark.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 12:05 PM
Of course, it is possible that the ultra-powerful one inch square paper sa'angreal didn't survive.
True. One has to ponder the fireproofing technology required to handle power levels that can melt "indestructible" crystal like the female access key, though. :rolleyes:

:D

natiels
05-06-2011, 12:16 PM
There is a saying about cars and performance parts "Fast, reliable, cheap - pick any two".

Maybe we have

powerful
easy (or easier) to make
small

If you want a small and powerful angreal then its gonna be pretty tough to make and perhaps requires special materials and most definitely requires one or more individuals of special Talent and even then you probably run into limitations.

Likewise someone of lesser Talent and with limited materials may be able to construct a weak angreal fairly easily at the expense of it needing to be large (probably too large for anyone to want to carry considering its power).

Anyway, I am not suggesting that this IS the formula, but that its probably more complicated than just size == power.

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2011, 12:20 PM
or that someone from the brown ajah is using it as a super cool AOL bookmark.That's gonna freak out the White Tower when her Asha'man warder helps sort out her book collection. :D

Zombie Sammael
05-06-2011, 01:01 PM
The best theory I've ever heard about the making of angreal and sa'angreal is that it requires a circle to make them, each member contributing a portion of strength, and a ter'angreal maker (such as Elayne) guiding the flows to create it. This theory has the advantage as *'angreal of varying strengths can be explained by the strengths of those in the circle and the size of the circle; male and female "tuning" is explained by the inclusion or otherwise of men in the circle, and whether a man or a woman guides the flows.

Unfortunately, I can't remember if I came up with this or if someone else did, but I think it's a fairly common idea. It also explains why we haven't yet seen anyone with the talent for making power-boost type 'angreal - no-one has yet tried making them whilst linked in a circle.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 01:06 PM
If 80% of known angreal and 100% of known sa'angreal follow the general principle of bigger is more powerful, the missing second most powerful is 80%+ more likely to be bigger than Callandor and smaller than the Chodean Kal.


But Callandor is flawed. An equivalent saangreal that's properly buffered might be bigger or as natiels suggested be more difficult to make.


Kind of cheapens everything.

I'm with you on this though I think TLB will be fought with everything available. Just not likely we'll see the angreal or terangreal for that matter playing any major roles. We might not see any new angreal/terangreal up close.

I wonder if the CK could still be used in their present state for anything. At the very least, trying will require someone very lucky or with a death wish.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 01:10 PM
There is a saying about cars and performance parts "Fast, reliable, cheap - pick any two".

Good points.

Still in almost every case, within any given technology level, bigger is more powerful -- in terms of brute force. Rock bands don't entertain arenas with Bose Wave Radio sized speakers, they use the same wave technology in six-foot tall amplifers.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 01:19 PM
But Callandor is flawed. An equivalent sa'angreal that's properly buffered might be bigger or as natiels suggested be more difficult to make.

Very probably more difficult to make -- if it wasn't, they probably wouldn't have messed up the way they did. :D

Flawed or not, Callandor is one side of a capability gap and the male CK is the other -- there is a lot more room for size variation between Callandar and the CK than there is between Callandor and Vora's Sa'angreal or Moiraine's new "almost a sa'angreal" bracelet.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 01:29 PM
...This theory has the advantage as *'angreal of varying strengths can be explained by the strengths of those in the circle and the size of the circle; ...

The CK statues were definite made by a "team" that probably worked in a circle. The problem with the theory is that the CK were far more powerful than the largest possible circle. I doubt that the CK team was comprised of 72 clones of Lanfear and LTT and I'm not sure even that would be a circle comparable in brute power to either CK.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 02:50 PM
It also explains why we haven't yet seen anyone with the talent for making power-boost type 'angreal - no-one has yet tried making them whilst linked in a circle.


Maybe there's a simpler reason - Elyane hasn't figured out yet that some devices contain more than one component. If she felt she needed more strength, she could have done it with angreal rather than using a circle. She can get more raw OP that way.

However, I think circles are important to making angreal and sa'angreal. Most of the ter'angreal we've seen have been performing function that could be done with OP weaves such as the various sleep and communications devices.

But there is no known OP weave that increases a channeler's strength. Only by the process of linking can they increase their strength safely, and this is what angreal do. Come to think of it, Elayne doesn't link often so what would she know? And she could enter a circle while pregnant I think.

Anyway, the challenge for her is to make a device that will magnify the amount of OP one can draw and at the same time prevent overdraw. Its simple enough.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 03:40 PM
Anyway, the challenge for her is to make a device that will magnify the amount of OP one can draw and at the same time prevent overdraw. Its simple enough.

You mean she needs to build somthing that simulates a link -- or forces an unbalanced one?

The a'dam prevents damane from burning out (because it is a link even if it isn't a proper link) as well as forcing them to channel under the Su'dam's control, and Elayne has constructed an a'dam; it was the first thing she constructed, after identifying that the leash was not necessary.

Rand al'Fain
05-06-2011, 04:07 PM
No Strawberry Panic :D




Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif
I thought it looked familiar.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 04:09 PM
You mean she needs to build somthing that simulates a link -- or forces an unbalanced one?

The a'dam prevents damane from burning out (because it is a link even if it isn't a proper link) as well as forcing them to channel under the Su'dam's control, and Elayne has constructed an a'dam; it was the first thing she constructed, after identifying that the leash was not necessary.

Yes but it doesn't magnify. It only uses what is already there and sets a control point for it in the bracelet - two separate items.

Hergrom
05-06-2011, 05:02 PM
I have been bouncing around a theory in my head - I have noticed that Rand's cloak has been mentioned on numerous occasions, with several people questioning why he is wearing it...

I am thinking that perhaps that cloak is a Sa'Angreal, maybe even the one discussed? Consider:

1) Rand stops a force of Trollocs and other shadowspawn that was SIGNIFICANTLY larger then the group that previously attacked Maradon, which a large number of Ashaman couldn't stop
2) There is reference to how Rand's attacks are "far" larger then that of the other Ashaman
3) Naeff can barely believe what he was seeing "I have never seen so many weaves at once... I can't track them all. He's a storm of Light and Power!"
4) Rand faced far less Trollocs in the attack at the Mannor, and if it wasn't for the Ashaman and Aes Sedai there he wouldn't have held them off

There are other points of evidence as well. Perhaps it can be attributed to Rand gaining memories of Lews Therin, but he doesn't just seem more knowledgeable, but also more powerful; very much more powerful, and it occurred after he started wearing that brown cloak, which is mentioned far too often to be simple coincidence.

New to the forum as well, hello all :)

enak101
05-06-2011, 06:00 PM
Hey, welcome. Good theory, only on book 6 in my re read but I will look for that cloak.

Darth-Andrea
05-06-2011, 06:21 PM
Honestly I have assumed that Rand finished off his own forcing when he almost killed himself on Dragonmount. Lews Therin was as strong as a man could be by remarks made by the Forsaken over the course of the books.

Either that or he some how internalized what ever elements of the statue that allows it to access and hold that much power. Basically making himself a walking Sa`Angreal. I'm more than likely wrong about that but it's one of the few things I can think of that would explain his greatly enhanced strength.








Darth_Andrea http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/starwars1.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/anim-ring.gif http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu227/AnDrea-AlTalani/The_Wheel_of_Time__Stamp_by_Seiken_.gif

FelixPax
05-06-2011, 06:38 PM
But Callandor is flawed. An equivalent saangreal that's properly buffered might be bigger or as natiels suggested be more difficult to make.

Callandor is NOT flawed. It's the WAY it's suppose to be. Why? The 'Promised One' needs to die, to rid the world of the Shadow's creatures.


If Callandor had a working buffer, it would destroy the whole set-up of Rand's sacrifice in the Last Battle. RJ purposefully WANTS Rand to die.

The Unreasoner
05-06-2011, 07:37 PM
I thought the foreshadowing in TGH referred to Ishamael's conversation with the Dragon in the chapter Kinslayer. Regardless, I do not believe that any Sa'angreal are very important plot-wise. I always felt Domon's figurine was an angreal. I don't see that the item needs to be particularly large in any case, Moiraine's bracelet angreal is small, as is Vora's fluted wand. Callandor is relatively small. Lanfear doesn't seem surprised at her ignorance of its status.

In any case, why destroy the Choedan Kal only to use another super-powerful Sa'angreal? Why can't angreal be akin to the "focus points" of the Dark One's prison? Also, a question that has always bugged me, what is the difference between angreal and Sa'angreal? Is it simply power? If so, what purpose does the varying potency within each class serve?

Rand al'Fain
05-06-2011, 08:47 PM
I thought the foreshadowing in TGH referred to Ishamael's conversation with the Dragon in the chapter Kinslayer. Regardless, I do not believe that any Sa'angreal are very important plot-wise. I always felt Domon's figurine was an angreal. I don't see that the item needs to be particularly large in any case, Moiraine's bracelet angreal is small, as is Vora's fluted wand. Callandor is relatively small. Lanfear doesn't seem surprised at her ignorance of its status.

In any case, why destroy the Choedan Kal only to use another super-powerful Sa'angreal? Why can't angreal be akin to the "focus points" of the Dark One's prison? Also, a question that has always bugged me, what is the difference between angreal and Sa'angreal? Is it simply power? If so, what purpose does the varying potency within each class serve?
Yes, angreal and sa'angreal have very similar properties. When it comes dow to it though, sa'angreal are MUCH more powerful than angreal. Like Eggy's flute thing in TOM when she rained havoc on the Seanchan raiders. Angreal help amplify the power, but no where near as much as a sa'angreal.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 11:42 PM
I don't see that the item needs to be particularly large in any case, Moiraine's bracelet angreal is small, as is Vora's fluted wand. Callandor is relatively small.

"Larger" doesn't necessarily mean "very large." Callandor is probably a bit over twice the length and mass of Vora's Sa'angreal, but either is still clearly 'man-portable.'

The Chodean Kal were "Very, Very, Large" but they were to other sa'angreal as a turkey-baster is to the Pacific Ocean. Callandor and Vora's sa'angreal are just different sized turkey-basters in comparison.

FelixPax
05-09-2011, 04:08 AM
Regardless, I do not believe that any Sa'angreal are very important plot-wise.

Sounds as if your have MISSED Mesaana's previous thoughts about Demandred's intentions and goals?

Demandred was looking for a Sa'angreal, Mesaana claimed. If anyone knew Demandred's goals and plans it was Mesaana, who was a part of his alliance with him.




In any case, why destroy the Choedan Kal only to use another super-powerful Sa'angreal?

That point of view assumes Rand is going to use the remaining male Giant Sa'angreal, which Mierin mentioned offhand earlier.


Few major characters have mentioned this particular Giant Sa'angreal (located in the Black Hills). So who has among others?



Bayle Domon (Story in tEotW book)
Queen Ethenielle Cosaru Noramaga (Kandor)
King Paitar (Arafel)
Queen Tenobia (Saldaea)
King Easar (Shienar)



Who else SHOULD know of this Sa'angreal NOW?



Birgitte (Self-Knowledge from TAR, and "Tovan writings")
Tuon/Fortuona, via reports from Lord Turak (who is dead)
Selucia, via Fortuona & Lord Turak
Taim
Liandrin (and all original 13 B.A.'s with her)
Lord Luan of House Norwelyn, Andoran Noble (Luan River's headwaters are in the Black Hills, near it likely.)
Sea Folk Aes Sedai Librarians of the 13th Depository: Aiden, Nyein and Zemaille
Valan Luca, (who crossed the Borderlands early in the series, and who is a Tinker)
Raen and Ila, each are Tinkers
Elyas
Who ever has LISTENED to Noal Charin's stories --> Chel Vanin, Olver



All native Borderlanders:


Davram Bashere (Saldaean)
Faile Bashere (Saldaean)
Deira Bashere (Saldaean)
Lady Zavion of Gahaur (Saldaean)
Jahar Narishma, Asha'man
Uno
Ragan
Pevara Tazanovni, Aes Sedai, Red Ajah (Kandori)
Adelorna Bastine, Aes Sedai, Green Ajah (Saldaean)
Kiruna, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah) (Arafel)
Samitsu, Aes Sedai
Berenicia Morsad, Aes Sedai, Yellow Ajah (Shienar)
Masuri Sokawa, Aes Sedai, Brown Ajah (Arafel)
Falion Bhoda, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah) (Kandori)
Rianna Andomeran, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah) (Kandori)
Eldrith, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah) (Malkeri)
Beldeine Nyram, Aes Sedai (Black Ajah likely) (Saldaean)
Kumira, Aes Sedai, Brown Ajah (with Cadsuane side) (Shienaran)
Renald Fanwar, Farmer, (Borderlands)
Thulin, Farmer, (Borderlands)
Auaine, Farmer, (Borderlands)



Warders:

Kennit, Warder to Eldrith (Black Ajah)
Fen Mizar, Warder (Saldaean) to Joline, Aes Sedai
Blaeric Negina, Warder (Shienaran) to Joline, Aes Sedai
Rovair Kirklin, Warder to Masuri, Aes Sedai



Kin members:


Zarya Alkaese/Garenia Rosoinde, Kin member (Saldaean)
Keraille Surtovni, Kin member (Saldaean)




There's still more characters to list, but these lists are a beginning...

The Unreasoner
05-10-2011, 09:55 PM
I missed nothing. Mesaana's comment regarding Demandred "launching" himself against the Dragon refers more to his nature than his plans. Do you really think he has been absent this long simply because he is looking for a sa'angreal? Demandred with a Sa'angreal, circle, or even unaided is a dangerous man who wants the Dragon dead. Plot-wise, one is little different from the other.

On another note, where are you getting all of this "information" about the other Sa'angreal?

FelixPax
05-11-2011, 02:28 AM
Do you really think he has been absent this long simply because he is looking for a sa'angreal?

Demandred is the Chosen, whom Ishamael/Moridin and the Dark One has 'trusted' to a degree to help launch an invasion of the Westlands. Not Moghedien. Not Cyndane. Not Aran'gar. Not Graendal.

Recollect Demandred has been put into place by the Dark One. Demandred has been very purposeful in his activities.


RJ needed an arch-Chosen to fight the Westlanders and to lead the invasion... so Demandred is the man.

Moridin has other more important things to do... like surprising Rand, Mierin, Alivia in AMoL book.


Demandred with a Sa'angreal, circle, or even unaided is a dangerous man who wants the Dragon dead. Plot-wise, one is little different from the other.

Mierin/Lanfear has claimed that ALL the Chosen have plotted behind the Dark One's back (Rand pov).

Demandred's own side plotting "likely" focuses on the Giant Sa'angreal in the Black Hills, if Mesaana's thoughts are to be believed.

Demandred have been know to have visited Rhuidean; where many many items of the power HAVE disappeared from view between TFoH book AND ToM book. The wagons Moiraine filled with items of the power, did not remove all the Rhuidean items of power either. Yet WHO has taken what Moiraine didn't take from Rhuidean?


On another note, where are you getting all of this "information" about the other Sa'angreal?

The Wheel of Time series of books. :D

The Unreasoner
05-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Ha. I doubt very much that there is evidence in any canon source indicating the existence of a Sa'angreal in the Black Hills.

Also, I believe I said that the Sa'angreal was likely unimportant, not Demandred. I have said elsewhere in the forums that I feel Demandred is playing a major role in the invasion.

knightofround
05-13-2011, 09:27 PM
Huh. I always assumed that it was the Ring of the Tamyriln + LTT's burnout that created dragonmount. And dragonmount was protected in T'A'R similar to Rhuiden and the Blight which is why nobody could find it.

But I guess it doesn't make much sense for Ishidin to say that LTT "once wore the ring of the tamyriln" if he was wearing. Now I'm not sure if that's the stronger sa'angreal.

On a side note, I still think it's possible for Elayne to recreate the access key ter'angrael. Although its less likely now that she's got preggers.

It's gotta be less complex than making angrael, and Rand still has the male version to provide somewhat of a guide. I don't think Rand is aware she has the talent.

frenchie
05-13-2011, 09:38 PM
Kinda pointlees to recreate the access keys when the Choedan Kal are both destroyed.

The Unreasoner
05-14-2011, 12:57 AM
Yes, the access keys are likely useless.

But barring some sort of "shadow's Choedan Kal" (which would explain why Lanfear, not Domon, is the only one who has expressed knowledge of it), the Ring of Tamyrlin is a likely candidate.

Assuming this is the case, does this not demand more questions regarding its nature? Clearly the Choedan Kal are radically stronger, or the Ring would have been substituted. As the Dragon already wore the Ring, who was intended to wield the weaker Callandor? Of course, if the Ring is not the Sa'angreal then this speculation is worse than useless. But if not, I see a deeper function, though not role, of the Ring. A dual-gender Sa'angreal perhaps?

Zombie Sammael
05-14-2011, 03:48 AM
@The Unreasoner - I'm pretty sure Callandor can be used by either gender, so being dual-gendered isn't particularly special.

The Unreasoner
05-14-2011, 05:20 AM
Sort of doubt it. Didn't Lanfear say that to her it was just a sword? And I kind of think she would have taken it otherwise. I know for a fact that she thought Moghedien would have taken it only to deny its use to the Dragon.

Weird Harold
05-14-2011, 01:12 PM
... the Ring of Tamyrlin is a likely candidate.

Assuming this is the case, does this not demand more questions regarding its nature?

The Ring of Tamyrlin has been attributed with a lot of amazing capabilities for something that is mentioned just once in the mainline novels and twice if you include the BWB, which just basically reiterates that it is something that LTT wore associated with being the leader of the Hall of Servants.

I thought I remembered a glossary entry that said Tamyrlin was the person credited with rediscovering Channeling, but can't find it off-hand.

So, aside from the general size=power issue, why would something owned or created by the first person to channel be more powerful than nearly everything built at the end of the AOL, with uncounted centuries more information and practice?

That's a bit like expecting a 1905 Wright Flyer to topple the SR-71's speed and altitude records.

The Unreasoner
05-14-2011, 08:54 PM
Why would dream ter'angreal made in the AOL be superior to the ones made by Elayne, thousands of years later? Maybe Tamyrlin was just that good.

Lousy argument, I know, but to be fair, I didn't necessarily identify the ring as a Sa'angreal.

And, newbie question, what is this BWB?

Rand al'Fain
05-14-2011, 10:12 PM
Why would dream ter'angreal made in the AOL be superior to the ones made by Elayne, thousands of years later? Maybe Tamyrlin was just that good.

Lousy argument, I know, but to be fair, I didn't necessarily identify the ring as a Sa'angreal.

And, newbie question, what is this BWB?

Big White Book. Basically an encyclopedia of the WoT with some info otherwise not found in the novels.

Weird Harold
05-15-2011, 02:50 AM
Why would dream ter'angreal made in the AOL be superior to the ones made by Elayne, thousands of years later? Maybe Tamyrlin was just that good.

Lousy argument, I know, but to be fair, I didn't necessarily identify the ring as a Sa'angreal.

And, newbie question, what is this BWB?
Ter'angreal made at or near the end of the AOL are generally supperior to thos emade by Elayne because Elayne is reverse engineering "lost" technology and she doesn't get it completely right all the time.

The BWB== The Big White Book (of Bad Art), aka The World OF Robert Jordan's Wheel Of Time by Robert Jordan and Teresa Patterson.

Marie Curie 7
05-15-2011, 01:37 PM
The Ring of Tamyrlin has been attributed with a lot of amazing capabilities for something that is mentioned just once in the mainline novels and twice if you include the BWB, which just basically reiterates that it is something that LTT wore associated with being the leader of the Hall of Servants.

I thought I remembered a glossary entry that said Tamyrlin was the person credited with rediscovering Channeling, but can't find it off-hand.

It's in the glossary of To the Blight, mentioned previously in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=148666#post148666). ;)

Weird Harold
05-15-2011, 02:22 PM
It's in the glossary of To the Blight, mentioned previously in this thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=148666#post148666). ;)
Thanks. I missed that part of the discussion for some reason.

greatwolf
05-15-2011, 04:45 PM
You mean she needs to build somthing that simulates a link -- or forces an unbalanced one?

The a'dam prevents damane from burning out (because it is a link even if it isn't a proper link) as well as forcing them to channel under the Su'dam's control, and Elayne has constructed an a'dam; it was the first thing she constructed, after identifying that the leash was not necessary.

No I means she needs a device that increases an individual's access to the OP safely. Not a link. There are many things that occur in a link that are irrelevant to angreal making such as sharing of emotions and the possibility of compulsion.

Elayne has to figure out why a link allows a channeler to hold more of the OP without burnout. Anyone can draw any amount of the OP, but surviving it seems to be the key here.

In making the adam, she knew already that there were three separate parts - collar, bracelet and leash. But all angreal and sa'angreal we've come across so far seem to be single piece items.

Weird Harold
05-15-2011, 08:49 PM
Elayne has to figure out why a link allows a channeler to hold more of the OP without burnout. ...

... But all angreal and sa'angreal we've come across so far seem to be single piece items.

No, all Elayne needs to do is offload the twins so she can go back to studying *'angreal and reverse engineer an angreal and/or sa'angreal -- she knows enough about linking to recognise the buffering effect if it is similar to linking and has a talent for reverse engineering OP Devices so that it doesn't matter if angreal use the same principle as linking to protect the user or not.

Elayne does NOT build OP devices from scratch, she reverse engineers AOL/Breaking OP devices and copies them (mostly) by rote.

The Unreasoner
05-16-2011, 08:20 AM
Actually I am pretty sure the invisibility ter'angreal was an original creation.

nameless
05-16-2011, 11:28 AM
That one always kind of confused me, because it was built for sisters who are too weak to make Folded Light themselves, but in Rand's POV he thinks about how the amount of Power needed to make Folded Light is practically negligible. I guess either Rand is strong enough that his "negligible" is still beyond the abilities of some Aes Sedai, or else the version Moghedien taught Elayne and Nynaeve is much less Power-efficient than the version Rand uses.

Weird Harold
05-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Actually I am pretty sure the invisibility ter'angreal was an original creation.
Reference?

I don't recall an invisibility ter'angreal, nor is it listed at Encyclopedia WOT (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/index.html) -- but both the eWOT and I have been known to be wrong. :D

nameless
05-16-2011, 01:08 PM
It's somewhere in Fires of Heaven or maybe the early parts of Lord of Chaos. She designs a ter'angreal that makes Folded Light, but it's an imperfect version of the weave that ripples when you move.

Marie Curie 7
05-16-2011, 01:52 PM
It's somewhere in Fires of Heaven or maybe the early parts of Lord of Chaos. She designs a ter'angreal that makes Folded Light, but it's an imperfect version of the weave that ripples when you move.

That wasn't a ter'angreal. It was a weave.


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"Good day, child. Do you have any more discoveries for us today?" As usual, Janya Frende spoke as though there was no time to get the words out. "Such remarkable strides you’ve made, you and Nynaeve, especially for Accepted. I still don’t see how Nynaeve does it, when she has so many difficulties with the Power, but I must say I’m delighted." Unlike most Brown sisters, often absentminded beyond their books and studies, Janya Sedai was quite neat, every short dark hair tidy around the ageless face that marked Aes Sedai who had worked long with the Power. But the slender woman’s appearance did hint at her Ajah. Her dress was plain gray, and stout wool – Browns seldom thought of clothes as more than decent covering – and even when she was talking to you, she wore a little frown, as though squinting in thought about something else entirely. She would have been pretty without that frown. "That way of wrapping yourself in light to become invisible. Remarkable. I’m sure someone will find how to stop the ripples, so you can move about with it. And Carenna is quite excited over that little eavesdropping trick of Nynaeve’s. Naughty of her, to think of that, but useful. Carenna thinks she sees how to adapt it to talkto someone at a distance. Think of it. To talk with someone a mile away! Or two, or even – " Anaiya touched her arm, and she cut off, blinking at the other Aes Sedai.

Edited to add: You're absolutely correct about the ter'angreal, just not about the rippling (which was why I initially thought you were thinking of the weave). But in addition to coming up with the invisibility weave that's mentioned above, Elayne did construct a ter'angreal:


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"I haven’t done as well as I might with the ter’angreal, Anaiya Sedai." That, at least, was hers and hers alone. The first had been the bracelet and necklace – a fact kept well hidden, needless to say – but they were an altered copy of a nasty invention, the a’dam, that the Seanchan left behind when their invasion was driven into the sea at Falme. The plain green disc that allowed someone not strong enough to work the invisibility trick – not many were – had been her idea from the first. She had no angreal or sa’angreal to study, so they had been impossible to make so far, and even after her ease in copying the Seanchan device, ter’angrealhad not proven as easy as she had thought. They used the One Power instead of magnifying it, used it for one specific purpose, to do one thing. Some could even be used by people who could not channel, even men. They should have been simpler. Maybe they were, in function, but not simple to make.

Aulis Vaara
05-16-2011, 05:23 PM
The green disc ter'angreal seems to go against it, but I always had the impression that Elayne didn't really understand how most of those ter'angreal worked, and just tried copying them. That's why they always came out poorly, she doesn't understand what's important, or what's important just isn't obvious to the eye. Or the important bit is a consequence of doing something a certain way and not another.

As for why the invisibility weave is easier for men than women: I seem to recall it requires the element of Fire, so perhaps it's simply that men are much stronger in that element. A fairly big chance I'm wrong though.

nameless
05-16-2011, 05:40 PM
That could be it. There's also the fact that men have a much harder time sensing the Power at a distance, so when Rand thinks that the weave is weak enough that no one else will feel him use it, that doesn't mean it's actually a low-Power weave.

Weird Harold
05-17-2011, 03:08 AM
Edited to add: You're absolutely correct about the ter'angreal, just not about the rippling ...

Once again, you work miracles.

The importnat part of that quote to the question of why she hasn't made an agreal is: She had no angreal or sa’angreal to study, so they had been impossible to make so far, and even after her ease in copying the Seanchan device, ter’angreal had not proven as easy as she had thought.

Of course, Elayne has acquired several angreal in the meantime, but she hasn't been able to do much studying since she acquired them (from the Ebou Dar stash) because she's been traveling, dealing with rebels and got pregnant. She can probably copy one eventually, and/or learn more about why some ter'angreal are easy and some hard to make.

I'll be seriously surprised if she manages to make anything more before T'G.

The Unreasoner
05-17-2011, 09:33 AM
I am rarely wrong

Marie Curie 7
05-21-2011, 01:32 PM
Of course, Elayne has acquired several angreal in the meantime, but she hasn't been able to do much studying since she acquired them (from the Ebou Dar stash) because she's been traveling, dealing with rebels and got pregnant. She can probably copy one eventually, and/or learn more about why some ter'angreal are easy and some hard to make.

I'll be seriously surprised if she manages to make anything more before T'G.

Well, she did find time to study and duplicate (if imperfectly) Mat's medallion, so it's not totally out of the question that she could come up with something else before Tarmon Gai'don, though I do think it's fairly unlikely.

Weird Harold
05-21-2011, 03:47 PM
Well, she did find time to study and duplicate (if imperfectly) Mat's medallion, so it's not totally out of the question that she could come up with something else before Tarmon Gai'don, though I do think it's fairly unlikely.
She kind of made time to study his medalion, rather than found it. It was either study and try to duplicate it in the short period she bargained Mat out of it or lose any chance of learning anything. That is not the same thing as finding time to study the items from the Ebou Dar Stash which can be put off because she can always do it later.

Marie Curie 7
05-21-2011, 06:47 PM
She kind of made time to study his medalion, rather than found it. It was either study and try to duplicate it in the short period she bargained Mat out of it or lose any chance of learning anything. That is not the same thing as finding time to study the items from the Ebou Dar Stash which can be put off because she can always do it later.

When I say that I'm going to "find time" to schedule a meeting with someone or to complete a particular task, it means that I'm going to rearrange my schedule in order to fit in whatever it is that I must; thus, I think we really are on the same page here. ;)

I was kind of surprised, though, that Elayne was able to reproduce Mat's medallion at all. It must depend a bit on how far along the pregnancy is as to how much it impacts the ability to channel.

Terez
05-21-2011, 06:49 PM
I think it likely she'll make successful copies; that's one of the major unresolved things IMO, and it requires linking. So we're all set up for it at least.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 12:37 PM
Some very interesting points.
Could it be that any individual can draw any amount, and that strength only reflects the personal buffer?

Sure, Verin's comments regarding Logain cast some doubt, but it could explain Rand's radical power increase.

Weird Harold
05-22-2011, 12:55 PM
Could it be that any individual can draw any amount, and that strength only reflects the personal buffer?

Somehow, I just can't picture Morgase building a second Dragonmount even with a "deathstrike" that ignores her personal buffer. :D

I think Strength is more like personal resistance to OP flow -- some people are 24ga earbud wires and others are 4ga stadium speaker cables

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 12:59 PM
Ha. No I agree. Although it could be an issue of experience, or that she would be dead long before she went so far. Siun was able to use Vora's wand, maybe if Mortgage did she could weave enough to make a Dragonmound.