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enak101
04-22-2011, 03:53 AM
Forsaken Wrap Up Reminder

Aginor-Burned to ash at the eye of the world by Rand. Revived as Osan'gar. Osan'gar is presumed dead attacked by Elza who thought she was killing Dashiva a proxy of Osan'gars. The attack was not specified as balefire but one of egwene's visons suggests he will not return.

Asmodean-Got killed by a lightning strike by Rahvin. Rand then balefires Rahvin resulting in the undoing of Asmodean's death. Later he is killed by Graendal presumably by balefire. Although asmodean didn't even have his tie to the dark one anymore so maybe he wouldn't be revived.

Balthamel-Was killed by the green man at the eye of the world by exploding from fungi and plants growing inside of him. He was later ressurected as Aran'Gar. The body is female but 'he' still channels saidin. While at Natrim's burrow he is balefired by Rand using the choden kal.

Be'Lal-While fighting Rand in a swordfight inside the heart of the stone. Be'Lal is then balefired by Moirane who snuck up on him.

Demandred-Little is known of Demandred, he has spoken to the Dark one about becoming nae'blis. He allied with Mesaana and Semirhage. He is following the orders of Moridin. Nothing else is known of his plans except that he has ordered the death of Rand at least once. Demandred is not Mazrim Taim, this has been stated by Robert Jordan. He was at the cleansing of Saidin and was almost killed by Rand's guards. Later at the chosen meeting in TAR, he is told Rand is not to be harmed while Mat and Perrin are to be killed. Some people have guessed he might be the king of murandy or a leader there. Persoanlly i don't think we can take an educated guess at this. He could be anywhere.

Graendel-It is not known whether Graendel is still alive or not. She has failed several missions including causing Rand anguish and killing Perrin. She was punished by Shaidar Haran.

Ishamael-First known as Ba'alzamon, he was very mad and the fiery eyes were probably the last stages of using the true power to much. Saa is when the black dots flicker across the eyes but eventually from his addiction it would have reached that. A reason he might have went insane is because he wasn;t even sleeping. He wasn't sealed properly. He visited Lews Therin after the sealing in person and used the power. After his full release he hunts the 3 ta'veren boys in their dreams until he is sure Rand is it. He battles rand twice. Once at the eye of the world and another at Falme. He is killed by Rand with Callandor by stabbing him. He is then ressurected as Moridin. He is nae'blis and the only one allowed to use the true power. At shadar logoth when rand is fighting Sammael both of them shoot balefire at Mashadar at the same time and they get this strange link.He controls cyndane(lanfear) and
Moghedian with mindtraps. It appears he can hear the commands of the dark one without being at Shayol Ghul.

Lanfear-Lews Therin's lover, the human who made the bore into the dark one's prison. She falls into the twisted doorway ter'angreal which melts and presumably kills Lanfear but Moiraine does survive. She is then presumably ressurected as Cyndane but it may the be the mirror of mists. She is mindtrapped by Moridin as Cyndane. After Rand's epiphany he finds Cyndane in a dream in distress. She begs him to help and apoligizes for everything, she is then dragged out of the dream by her torturer who is probably Moridin. It isn't known if it was actually her and whether she was forced to or not.

Mesaana-After being released from the bore not too much is known.Shaidar Haran punishes her for not following orders and not being at the battle at Shadar Logoth. Mesaana plans an attack on a meeting in TAR against Egwene, the wise ones and the seafolk. Egwene fractures her mind during this. She is not dead but she is completely useless.

Moghedian-After her release Nyneave manages to best her in the power but she escapes before being killed. She is linked to the supergirls with an a'dam. She is finally freed by Aran'Gar she is then tortured and then she gets a mindtrap used on her. Nothing is seen of her after the meeting in TAR.

Rahvin- Rahvin was balefired by Rand in Caemlyn.

Sammael- Sammael was consumed by Mashadar in shadar logoth and has not been seen since. It is assumed he could be revived but Robert Jordan has confirmed his final death.

Semirhage- The torture master. She blasted one of rands hands off making the series more sucky. She was released by Shaidar Haran and got her hands on a domination band. She is then balefired by Rand with balefire. Rand used the true power to weave the balefire.

Alive

Cyndane-Mindtrapped
Demandred
Graendal-I guess could be mindtrapped or dead. Possibly just normally alive.
Moghedian-Mindtrapped
Moridin

Dead
Aginor
Asmodean
Aran'gar
Balthamel
Be'Lal
Ishamael
Lanfear
Mesaana(brain dead)
Osan'gar
Rahvin
Sammael
Semirhage

I am not sure if the brain is linked with the soul, but they could kill Mesaana and then revive her. I am just not sure if that will work.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2011, 04:08 AM
Killing Mesaana would work for the Shadow, if there were enough time for it. I don't think there is, though.

Terez
04-22-2011, 04:16 AM
Some corrections:
Asmodean-Balefired by Rahvin. Rand then balefires Rahvin resulting in the undoing of Asmodean's death. Later he is killed by Graendal by balefire.
We're actually not sure about the balefire bit, but it's a good guess considering the RJ quotes on the subject (Brandon also guesses balefire).

A guess of [Demandred's] identity is Charlz Guybon mainly for both of them being tall and handsome and that both of them look like they have a good face for smiling and haven't smiled in a long time.We know it's not Guybon because Guybon was seen on screen. We know that Demandred has not been, with the possible exception of TGS - every other book has been disqualified (and Guybon was first seen on screen in KOD). (Read this (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_986fxmbvpg4&revision=_latest).)

Lanfear-Lews Therin's lover, the human who made the bore into the dark one's prison. She falls into the twisted doorway ter'angreal which melts and kills Lanfear but Moiraine does survive. She is then ressurected as Cyndane.We're not 100% sure she actually died - she could be cloaked in the Mirror of Mists. As for the dream, we're not 100% sure she was actually there, or that she wasn't acting.

Sammael- Sammael was consumed by Mashadar in shadar logoth and has not been seen since. It is assumed he could be revived but Robert Jordan has confirmed his final death.Brandon confirmed he can't be revived because Mashadar tainted his soul. However, it's assumed that the soul becomes untainted in the afterlife, as RJ said he can be born again.

enak101
04-22-2011, 04:36 AM
Thanks, made somne changes.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2011, 04:39 AM
Asmodean-Balefired by Rahvin. Rand then balefires Rahvin resulting in the undoing of Asmodean's death. Later he is killed by Graendal by balefire.I'd overlooked this, but now that my attention has been drawn to it, I feel that I have to correct your error: Asmodean was not balefired by Rahvin.

There, that settles it. :p

For those few who actually want evidence:
There had been more than one bolt in that first volley, but not all had been aimed at him. Mat's smoking boots lay a dozen paces from where Mat himself sprawled on his back. Tendrils of smoke rose from the black haft of his spear, too, from his coat, even from the silver foxhead, hanging out of his shirt, that had not saved him from a man's channeling. Asmodean was a twisted shape of char, recognizable only from the blackened harpcase still strapped to his back. And Aviendha... Unmarked, she could have laid down to rest if she could have rested staring unblinking at the sun.Being overcooked is not a known effect of balefire. It is, however, fully compatible with the lightning strikes which Rahvin used.

Terez
04-22-2011, 04:49 AM
Heh, I missed that bit and skipped to the Graendal distinction. :D

enak101
04-22-2011, 06:09 AM
Yes someone on dragonmount pointed that out to me.
They also said Rand didn't kill aginor but aginor did it to himself.

From the wiki
After his release, Aginor attempted to control all of the One Power from the Eye of the World, and was instead killed by Rand Al'Thor; burned to ash as Rand wrested the One Power from him.

Tamyrlin
04-22-2011, 09:25 AM
I'd still say overdose.

GonzoTheGreat
04-22-2011, 09:46 AM
I'd still say overdose.No volcano. Not even a tiny one.

Grig
04-22-2011, 10:36 AM
We're actually not sure about the balefire bit, but it's a good guess considering the RJ quotes on the subject (Brandon also guesses balefire).

Did Brandon actually say that? I missed that report. I assume that means the previous report that both the time and place of death were significant in his inability to be snatched by the DO and placed in another body was unreliable?

Marie Curie 7
04-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Yes someone on dragonmount pointed that out to me.
They also said Rand didn't kill aginor but aginor did it to himself.

From the wiki
After his release, Aginor attempted to control all of the One Power from the Eye of the World, and was instead killed by Rand Al'Thor; burned to ash as Rand wrested the One Power from him.

The Wiki isn't always correct, particularly since anybody can edit it. However, it is correct in this case...or, at least there's a 90% certainty, according to Brandon.

Brandon was asked about Aginor on the TOM tour, specifically because there was some question about whether Rand killed him or whether he overdosed on the One Power (EWoT, which also isn't always correct, says that Aginor drew too much of the One Power and burned himself up). Anyway, here's the report (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=124113#poststop):


Towers of Midnight book tour 6 November 2010, Bailey's Crossroads, VA - Robert Mee reporting

Rand destroyed Aginor Brandon is 90% sure of this fact.

enak101
04-22-2011, 06:34 PM
Thanks for that, yeah the wiki isn't always right. I can't imagine a forsaken someone who is such an expert in the one power to overdose on the one power.

Terez
04-22-2011, 09:09 PM
I think most people came to that conclusion because of Ishamael's statement about Aginor being greedy, but it was greed that led Aginor to try for the Eye in the first place, and that's likely what he meant. From Rand's perspective, it seems clear enough that he killed Aginor, though of course he wasn't even admitting to himself at the time that he was channeling.

Terez
04-22-2011, 09:16 PM
Sorry, missed this post:

Did Brandon actually say that? I missed that report. I assume that means the previous report that both the time and place of death were significant in his inability to be snatched by the DO and placed in another body was unreliable?
It's all in the Asmodean category. Do you use the database?

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=129071#poststop)


I also asked about how Asmodean was killed now that we know Graendal was responsible for his death. Brandon said that when he arrived at Harriet's and asked to see the ending and got the pile of Robert Jordan's notes including the ending, on top of that pile was a message from a fan in the form of a dialogue between a Sherlock Holmes character and a Watson character with a note from RJ saying 'this is right'. Emily asked if it was from Matt Hatch and Brandon didn't think it was.2 (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_820f85qwbd6&revision=_latest#FOOTNOTE-2) He said that he can probably send me that message so we know exactly what RJ said 'this is right' to.



This is apparently all of the information that is available from RJ himself about the actual method of Asmodean's murder. In Brandon's vision of the story, he imagines Graendal killed Asmodean (did the deed herself) with balefire, but apparently this is not in the notes. So its possible that it could have been done by another kind of weave and we are free to speculate on that.

I then asked about the RJ quote (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_820f85qwbd6&revision=_latest#how_and_where) where he said that the place and the method of Asmodean's killer both mean that he couldn't come back. Brandon said this was also a RAFO as he couldn't tell us why the place was important at this point without giving something away. He seemed to know something about this reason (there is probably information about why someone killed in the place Asmodean was couldn't be brought back by the Dark One). I asked if whether "where" referred to the city of Caemlyn or something else and this was also a RAFO.

He also said that RJ's answer to WSB: "The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors." might be interpreted as both factors (each alone) would have prevented the Dark One from bringing Asmodean back (and not just one or just the other) OR both factors (each alone) were not sufficient to prevent the Dark One from bringing Asmodean back and the combination of both was required. It seemed to me like his vision of it was more the first answer than the second (both factors each alone would have prevented it).

My idea is that it was a small amount of balefire - small enough that the Dark One could have gotten the soul if not for the location. That was my idea before Brandon said this, though.

enak101
04-24-2011, 11:07 PM
Would a small amount of balefire say to the chest, then put a hole through their chest and they would bleed out and die? In that case you could snatch the soul back. Unless balefire itself is special without covering their entire height.

Terez
04-24-2011, 11:13 PM
Living things are destroyed completely when balefired, no matter how small the amount.