PDA

View Full Version : It's over 9000!


enak101
04-25-2011, 04:18 AM
Hey I made a rough list of the power of each forsaken including lews therin

1.Lews Therin/Rand
2.Ishmael/Moridin
3.Aginor
4.Balthamel
5.Demandred
6.Rahvin
7.Be'Lal
8.Lanfear
9.Graendal
10.Semirhage
11.Mesaana
12.Moghedian
13.Asmodean

It is very rough and we don't know too much about demandred. I believe Lanfear could be 4 or 5. Demandred could be 4. The lower female ones could probably interchange a little bit.

I plan to change this a lot.

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2011, 04:29 AM
In the BWB the Forsaken are listed in order of strength. That shows that you've placed Demandred wrong. You also forgot about Sammael, it seems.
It does not tell us how the male and female lists should be interleaved.

enak101
04-25-2011, 04:34 AM
So I did, I should pick up this BWB, what does it stand for haha.

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2011, 04:37 AM
Big White Book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_of_Robert_Jordan's_The_Wheel_of_Time).

Terez
04-25-2011, 04:53 AM
In the BWB the Forsaken are listed in order of strength.
I had a big argument about this with Luckers before JCon. I ended up calling him a twit because he disagreed (mostly based on Demandred, who seems to be the only oddball in the ordering of either gender).

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2011, 05:13 AM
Demandred just never gets quite the recognition he deserves.

Terez
04-25-2011, 05:14 AM
Or maybe he gets too much...

enak101
04-25-2011, 05:40 AM
Maybe he is just a little bit stronger then asmodean :P. That's why he hasn't shown himself.

Terez
04-25-2011, 08:44 AM
My guess based on the recent talk with Brandon is that they are all very close by virtue of being at the top of the heap (and the top of the rather large heap of AOL channelers, to boot - rather than the random superchildren of the 3rd Age). So all the males might be on, say, three levels. We got the impression that Asmodean wasn't incredibly strong, but that was more because he had been captured and shielded....and because his greatest Talent was apparently music, which is not worth all that much.

GonzoTheGreat
04-25-2011, 08:57 AM
We got the impression that Asmodean wasn't incredibly strong, but that was more because he had been captured and shielded....and because his greatest Talent was apparently music, which is not worth all that much.Of course, he might have been better at dealing with the *finn than any of the other Forsaken. A bit late for that, now, though.

Weird Harold
04-25-2011, 10:18 AM
I had a big argument about this with Luckers before JCon. I ended up calling him a twit because he disagreed (mostly based on Demandred, who seems to be the only oddball in the ordering of either gender).
Demandred's second to last position inthe BWB definitely doesn't match the BWB's characterization of Demandred as "Mr Almost:"

Demandred was another of the Forsaken who, like Sammael, turned against Lews Therin in the War of the Shadow for reasons of envy. He hated the dragon even more than Sammael did, though with much less direct cause.

Before his conversion to the Dark he had been Barid Bel Medar, second only to Lews Therin Telamon as the most honored and influential man of his age. He was tall and reasonably good-looking, though not so tall as Lews Therin, and his hawk nose left him almost, but not quite, handsome.

“Almost” seemed to be the story of his life. Born one day after Lews Therin, he had almost as much strength and almost as much skill. He spent years almost equaling Lews Therin’s accomplishments and fame. If not for Lews Therin Telamon, he would have undoubtedly been the most acclaimed man of his Age.

Terez
04-25-2011, 11:06 PM
It doesn't contradict it either. You're looking through the lens of the Third Age where strong channelers are rare, and strong men especially so. In an organization with millions of channelers, being a few ticks from the top of the Dark Side doesn't disqualify him from being Mr. Almost at all. It could be that they are so close - like Brandon says - that they would have had to duel each other to see who would win. Rand and Asmodean were neck and neck at Rhuidean to the point that Rand needed the fat man to win. Rand hadn't yet reached his full potential, but that doesn't really tell us how much stronger than Asmodean Rand actually is. Since Asmodean had few useful Talents, it's not unreasonable to assume he was damn near as strong as the rest of them.

Along the same lines, we know Balthamel was included mostly because of his strength, but Balthamel wouldn't really get in the way of Demandred being Mr. Almost because that was a matter of intelligence and accomplishment as much as it was about strength in the Power. None of the Forsaken were close to Demandred in that aspect - he was the only one who had almost as much popularity, almost as much brilliance and charisma, etc. He was, like Lews Therin, the stereotypical jock, but always marginally less accomplished than Lews Therin.

Daekyras
04-26-2011, 04:24 AM
. He was, like Lews Therin, the stereotypical jock, but always marginally less accomplished than Lews Therin.

So he was Roger Black to Lews Therin's Michael Johnson?

(for those not of an athletics bent Roger Black collected 12 silver medals at major championships- all to Michael Johnson's Gold)

Toss the dice
04-26-2011, 05:04 AM
I've always assumed Asmodean was more than a match for the weaker female Forsaken, in raw power. His weakness was always the other stuff though, the personality-based stuff. Same deal with Aginor and Balthamel. Both very strong in raw power, however lacking in other areas, such as Balthamel not mastering his channeling abilities quite as much as the other Forsaken. Of course, the females have the dexterity and speed thing going, which tends to even out the playing field.

Obviously, save for a select few Forsaken, its impossible to tell exactly where they were at compared to the others. RJ meant for it to be this way. (as you all know) Still fun to guess at, though.

enak101
04-26-2011, 05:25 AM
Yeah, in waiting for the last book I am re reading and then doing stuff like this :).

Weird Harold
04-26-2011, 10:37 AM
It doesn't contradict it either. You're looking through the lens of the Third Age where strong channelers are rare, and strong men especially so. In an organization with millions of channelers, being a few ticks from the top of the Dark Side doesn't disqualify him from being Mr. Almost at all.

That's true. Demandred's Characterization as "Mr Almost" leads to a lot of assumptions in threads like this -- like "LTT was the strongest Channeler who ever lived."

If Demandred's position in second place doesn't mean he's the strongest/second strongest Forsaken then doesn't that also mean that LTT's position as Strongest light-side Channeler is suspect as well?

However, there is some separation at "Forsaken Strength" levels -- they aren't simply grouped into the top 5% of ability, they're spread over the top 12-15% (top three ranks of RJ's 21 level scale.)

Asmodean and Moghedien are respectively clearly the weakest of each "Forsaken Level" gender, Moridin and Lanfear likewise represent the top tier with the others spread over a level in between those four.

Ranking channelers any closer than that is probably pointless since not even Maria's character data can give a more definative answer.

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 01:13 AM
Ranking channelers any closer than that is probably pointless since not even Maria's character data can give a more definative answer.


Maybe difficult but I wouldn't say its impossible. Its clear that even among the forsaken/top echelon, some were clearly stronger than others. An example is Graendal acknowledgement of Cyndane's strength and the comparisms between Alivia and Nynaeve.

In these rankings I usually prefer to rely on stuff from aolers partly because linking was so important in their time and made it imperative for them to know one another's strengths and Talents so well. I regard it as more authoritative than what the 3rd agers might know or think they know, even though they're sometimes right like Verin's ranking of Logain.

FWIW, I think the females rank in the following order:

1. Lanfear
2. Sharina Melloy
3. A group consisting of Alivia/Cyndane/Talaan and very likely in that order. There isn't any evidence of anyone stronger than Alivia and Talaan in their respective cultures. And Cyndane's statements about Alivia at Shadar Logoth makes me suspect she is stronger than Cyndane without the angreal.

4. or rather 6th is likely semirhage and and Nynaeve. IIRC, BS confirmed Semi as the strongest of the forsaken after Lanfear and therefore stronger than Graendal. Graendal's encounter with Someryn of the shaido sounded as if Someryn was almost at par with her. And we know that Nynaeve is stronger than the next strongest aiel we've seen in the series - Viendre and Tamela (in WH).

So perhaps they are all close to each other - Semi/Nynaeve/Graendal/Someryn. I'm separating them based largely on a lot of circumstantial evidence but it could be right.

The next three would be Viendre and Tamela and Metarra of the seafolk.

And finally, the group consisting of Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Nicola and Bode.

Cadsuane would follow this lot and she'll be followed by several people - Elaida, Lelaine, Romanda, Suian and Moiraine (previously) and a couple of others I don't remember offhand.

Not a very clear list but at least some distinct levels are there and it could make comparing them and understanding motives easier.

Weird Harold
05-05-2011, 11:58 AM
Maybe difficult but I wouldn't say its impossible. Its clear that even among the forsaken/top echelon, some were clearly stronger than others.

I didn't say "impossible" I said Pointless -- meaning "without merit," "Not worth the trouble," etc.

There was clearly more than 5% of maximum strength between Lanfear and Greandal -- ie at least 1 of 21 rankings -- and the same between Greandal and Moghedien. But Mesaana and Semirhage are in one of those three percentiles, (probably Greandal's,) but not clearly stronger or weaker than the other(s) within that ranking.

Lanfear is something of a special case in that she is alleged to be "as strong as any woman can be" and thus "stronger than anyone else on level 21" by definition. But barring some explicit descriptor like Lanfear's special case, it is a waste of time to try and parse diferential strengths closer than RJ defined them.

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 02:17 PM
I didn't say "impossible" I said Pointless -- meaning "without merit," "Not worth the trouble," etc.


Pointless, trivial or uninteresting. Except that it'd be nice to know. And I don't see why RJ set up the system if we can't enjoy the whole thing.

Weird Harold
05-05-2011, 03:59 PM
Pointless, trivial or uninteresting. Except that it'd be nice to know. And I don't see why RJ set up the system if we can't enjoy the whole thing.
We can enjoy the whole thing. What I consider pointless is trying to enjoy more than he put into it.

In the case of the female forsaken, at least two of the five are equal in strength to at least one other, insofar as as RJ's system defined them.

Terez
05-05-2011, 04:16 PM
That's true. Demandred's Characterization as "Mr Almost" leads to a lot of assumptions in threads like this -- like "LTT was the strongest Channeler who ever lived."
Well, this is probably true based on other evidence, such as a couple of comments suggesting that Ishamael and Lews Therin were tied for first place with Aginor not far behind. If they were at the top of the 2nd Age then it's likely they were both the strongest channelers to ever live (not counting Rand's superpowers once per Turning, presumably).

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 12:27 AM
Well, this is probably true based on other evidence, such as a couple of comments suggesting that Ishamael and Lews Therin were tied for first place with Aginor not far behind. If they were at the top of the 2nd Age then it's likely they were both the strongest channelers to ever live (not counting Rand's superpowers once per Turning, presumably).


Osan'gar frowned at "idiots" and "blind fools," as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not.

Demandred clearly thinks he's stronger than Osangar-Aginor. Clearly. Granted he might be thinking in terms of things other than how much raw OP one can draw but could that not be true for the way the BWB uses the term strength? I don't often swallow its statements hook, line and whathaveyou.

nameless
05-06-2011, 10:25 AM
I think it's Siuan who says the strength alone isn't a good indicator of who'd win a duel, which is why the Tower hierarchy also uses things like how quickly you learn and how long you've been channeling at an Aes Sedai level.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Yeah, but it affects a lot of other things besides that.Increased strength also comes with increased speed and precision. I think RJ once explained that as the reason Lanfear was considered to be almost as strong as LT and Ishy.

Res_Ipsa
05-09-2011, 01:44 PM
A strict power level does not necessarily translate to the strongest of the forsaken. Consider:

1) When Alivia fought Cyn/Lanfear it was only because she, Alivia did not know how to reverse her weave that Lanfear lived. Cyndane herself said Alivia was stronger than she herself had been before being held in the TofG by the snakes and foxes.

2) Cunning, intelligence, and other factors can enhance a channeler's ability to survive as well as pure luck so the power to strength ratio is not necessarily 1:1.

Terez
05-09-2011, 02:11 PM
Yeah, but it affects a lot of other things besides that.Increased strength also comes with increased speed and precision. I think RJ once explained that as the reason Lanfear was considered to be almost as strong as LT and Ishy.
That's illogical, since both Lews Therin and Ishamael were strong, which by the above should theoretically bring the same increased speed and precision. (FYI, it was because women are more dextrous.)

finnssss
05-09-2011, 02:31 PM
I understood RJ as basically saying Women can do more with less.

Personally, I always figured that Men having to fight with and "force" Saidin to do what they want, while Women surrender to and "guide" Saidar to do what they want as a factor.

Weird Harold
05-10-2011, 12:30 PM
[/QUOTE]
A strict power level does not necessarily translate to the strongest of the forsaken.

That depends on how you define strongest; by your apparent definition, being "strongest" is strictly situational because Morgase could overpower and exhausted, stunned, or ill Lanfear.

"Strongest" in the context of this and similar threads is generally limited to brute force -- who could fill a Well the size of tEotW fastest without artificial aids, or some similar test.

...Cyndane herself said Alivia was stronger than she herself had been ...

Cyndane only deduced, correctly, that Alivia was using an angreal (Nyneave's Bracelet and Rings, plus Nyneave's "Paralis Net")

Res_Ipsa
05-11-2011, 06:46 PM
That depends on how you define strongest; by your apparent definition, being "strongest" is strictly situational because Morgase could overpower and exhausted, stunned, or ill Lanfear.

"Strongest" in the context of this and similar threads is generally limited to brute force -- who could fill a Well the size of tEotW fastest without artificial aids, or some similar test.

Ohh I dont doubt any of what you said but a strict slug fest aggregate would serve no purpose in the series other than to satisfy fanboys whims. But then again I can remember as a kid being interested in the power level of the characters on Dragon Ball Z.

Cyndane only deduced, correctly, that Alivia was using an angreal (Nyneave's Bracelet and Rings, plus Nyneave's "Paralis Net")

Correct but as pointed out early on in the series an Angreal does not necessarily double, triple, etc your power. They themselves are simply conduits for more of tOP correct? So its feasible that Alivia by Cyndane's admission that she, Alivia was stronger than she herself had been before being held could be equal to or slightly greater than pre ToG Lanfear.

Weird Harold
05-12-2011, 01:31 AM
Correct but as pointed out early on in the series an Angreal does not necessarily double, triple, etc your power. They themselves are simply conduits for more of tOP correct?

An angreal (or sa'angreal) is a device to allow a Channeler to Channel more power than they are capable of unaided. IOW, anyone using an angreal would appear to be stronger than they actually are.

They might only appear to be just slightly stronger than their unaided strength, or they could appear to be stronger than a full Circle of seventy-two, but they will ALWAYS appear stronger than their natural strength by some amount.

ETA: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/angreal.html

enak101
05-12-2011, 01:46 AM
Why can't a circle go above 72? If there are an equal amount of men and women or the amount needed i don't see why there is a limit.

Also an angreal or sa'angreal just let's them 'hold' more of the one power. Therefore use more of it.

Weird Harold
05-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Why can't a circle go above 72? If there are an equal amount of men and women or the amount needed i don't see why there is a limit.

Also an angreal or sa'angreal just let's them 'hold' more of the one power. Therefore use more of it.
'Hold,' 'Channel,' 'use' or whatever word you want to use, an angreal or sa'angreal allows a Channeler to apply more brute strength to a weave and thus makes them "more powerful." As Cyndane's famous remark about Alivia at the Cleansing shows, even a talented AOL-Trained Channeler can't tell the difference (when the power is being used) between natural potential and angreal amplification.

Ask the BWB why a Circle can't go beyond 72 or why any of the other rules about linking have to be that way -- why does a woman have to initiate the link even though a man must control a 1+1 circle?; Why must there always be one more woman than men except for 1+1 and 2M+1F?

None of the rules for linking make any rational sense, but they are the rules RJ established for linking.

see: http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/linking.html for starters

ETA:
A circle of up to thirteen female channelers can be linked together without the presence of a man. If a man is added to the link of thirteen women, they can then increase the link to include thirteen more women, or a total of twenty-six women and one man. Two men can take the circle to include thirty-four women. The next total is forty-five, with three men linked with forty-two women, then fifty-four (four men and fifty women), then sixty-three (five men and fifty-eight women) and finally seventy-two (six men and sixty-six women). This last, a circle of seventy-two, is the maximum possible link in terms of numbers.

Other gender mixes are possible in a link as well. The number of men in a circle is limited only be the fact that with the exceptions of the linking of one man and one woman or of two men and one woman ( and of course, of two men and two women), there must always be at least one more woman in the circle than the number of men. Thus, three men would need four women to be in a circle together, four men would need five women, and so on. There can also be smaller circles than thirteen, whether of women alone or of men and women.

nameless
05-12-2011, 12:45 PM
Women who get close enough to other women can sense potential strength as well as the amount of Power actively being channeled. Presumably a woman who was close enough could figure out that someone was using an amplifier, such as an angreal or linked circle, if their apparent strength exceeded their potential. With men there's no way to tell because men can't sense each other's potential without doing that resonance test they use to figure out if someone can learn to channel.