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Terez
04-26-2011, 05:38 AM
So, I've been thinking about the Legion of the Dragon a lot since I started buying into the Demandred=Roedran theory. The Legion is mostly fishy for these reasons:

1. They are mysterious. We don't know anything about their leaders aside from Bashere himself.

2. They were Taim's idea in the first place, and they have been recruited mostly by his recruiting parties.

3. They adopted the 'volunteers' from Sammael's army who were led by Eagan Padros, who tried to kill Rand in TPOD, along with confirmed Darkfriend Asha'man in a separate attempt, and Weiramon, now a confirmed Darkfriend, in yet another attempt.

4. We know that they are a pretty huge army now, and they're trained by some ideas worked out between Mat and Bashere. They're remarkably efficient infantry trained with crossbows. A dangerous weapon supposedly more completely dedicated to Rand than any other army aside from the Aiel.

5. They're camped outside Caemlyn. Elayne wondered in KOD if they were leaving when the Aiel left, but apparently they did not. The TOM glossary adds a new bit to the entry that has been the same for several books now:

Legion of the Dragon, the: A large military formation, all infantry, giving allegiance to the Dragon Reborn, trained by Davram Bashere along lines worked out by himself and Mat Cauthon, lines which depart sharply from the usual employment of foot. While many men simply walk in to volunteer, large numbers of the Legion are scooped up by recruiting parties from the Black Tower, who first gather all of the men in an area who were willing to follow the Dragon Reborn, and only after taking them through gateways near Caemlyn winnow out those who can be taught to channel. The remainder, by far the greater number, are sent to Bashere's training camps. The Legion of the Dragon is at present training for the Last Battle.So, they are very much an unknown factor right now. It's very believable that they are being controlled by one of the Forsaken - very likely Demandred - and it's also very possible that they will have something to do with Bashere's 'something dark'.

However, the Legion of the Dragon is only one of the many armies hanging out around Caemlyn. Elayne describes that here:

"You will recall your orders regarding mercenary bands?"

"Yes," she said, grimacing. She was getting thirsty. Gloomily, she eyed the cup of warm goat's milk on the table next to her chair. News of battle brought bands of sell-swords eager to offer their services.

Unfortunately for most of the mercenaries, the siege had been a short one. News traveled fast, but weary and hungry soldiers traveled slowly. Soldier bands continued to arrive at the city in a steady flow, the men in them disappointed to find no need for their weapons.

Elayne had begun by sending them away. Then she'd realized the foolishness in this. Every man would be needed at Tarmon Gai'don, and if Andor could provide an extra five or ten thousand soldiers to the conflict, she wanted to do so.

She didn't have the coin to pay them now, but neither did she want to lose them. So instead, she had ordered Master Norry and Captain Guybon to give all of the mercenary bands the same instructions. They were to allow no more than a certain number of soldiers into Caemlyn at a time, and they were to camp no closer than one league from the city.

This was to leave them with the idea that she'd meet with them eventually and offer them work. She just might do that, now that she had decided to take the Sun Throne. Of course, the last sell-swords she'd hired had gone rotten on her more often than not.At the time, the Band was only one of those many mercenary bands. When Elayne discovered Mat was with them, she allowed them to camp closer to the city:

"I'm sorry to make you wait so long, Mat."

"It's nothing," he said. "You're busy."

"It's embarrassing," she said. "One of my stewards lumped you with the mercenary groups. It's so hard to keep track of them all! If you wish, I'll give you leave to camp closer to the city. There's not room inside the walls for the Band, I'm afraid."

"That won't be needed," Mat said, taking one of the seats. "Letting us move closer is kind enough. Thank you."And the move is noted later:

Eventually, he bade the other two a good night. Noal wanted to head back to the Band's camp, which was now only a ten-minute ride from the city. Thom agreed to go with him, and they took Mat's pack full of nightflowers—though both men looked as if they would rather be carrying a sack full of spiders.
And later:

It had been about a week since the testing of the dragons, and she'd put all of the bellfounders in her nation to work on creating them. These days, one could hear a steady sound in Caemlyn, repeating booms as members of the Band trained with the weapons in the hills outside of the city. So far, she had let only a few of the weapons be used for training; the different teams rotated practicing on them. She'd gathered the larger number in a secret warehouse inside Caemlyn for safekeeping.
How secret is that storehouse? Were any of the mercenary bands or the Legion allowed to witness the demonstrations outside the city? Later, part of the Band was moved to Cairhien, splitting their forces:

Norry moved on. She had a letter from Talmanes, agreeing to move several companies of soldiers from the Band of the Red Hand to Cairhien. She ordered Norry to send him a writ with her seal, authorizing the soldiers to "lend aid restoring order." That was, of course, nonsense. No order needed to be restored. But if Eiayne was ever going to move for the Sun Throne, she'd need to make some preliminary moves in that direction.

Mat notes later that it was about half of them, actually:

A military camp at evening was one of the most comfortable places in all the world, even if half the camp was empty, the men there having gone to Cairhien. The sun had set, and some of those who remained had turned in. But for those who had pulled afternoon duty the next day, there was no reason to sleep just yet.
Elayne brought those with her to Merrilor, along with the bulk of her troops from Andor:

The Cairhienin were Elayne's now, by reports, and were coming through with the Andorans and a large number of men from the Band of the Red Hand. Egwene had sent an offer, and a woman to offer Traveling, to King Roedran of Murandy, but she was uncertain if he would come.
Or, presumably the bulk, since Egwene was insistent on everyone bringing all their troops.


Add to all this the fact that Mat of course remembers assaulting Caemlyn back in the day:

The Band's camp was a league outside of Caemlyn. Thom and Mat had not ridden in—walkers were less conspicuous, and Mat would not bring horses into the city until he found a stable that he trusted. The price of good horses was getting ridiculous. He had hoped to leave that behind once he left Seanchan lands, but Elayne's armies were buying up every good horse they could find, and most of the not-so-good ones, too. Beyond that, he had heard that horses had a way of disappearing these days. Meat was meat, and people were close to starving, even in Caemlyn. It made Mat's skin crawl, but it was the truth.

He and Thom spent the walk back talking about the gholam, deciding very little other than to make everyone alert and have Mat start sleeping in a different tent every night.

Mat glanced over his shoulder as the two of them crested a hilltop. Caemlyn was ablaze with the light of torches and lamps. Illumination hung over the city like a fog, grand spires and towers lit by the glow. The old memories inside him remembered this city—remembered assaulting it before Andor was even a nation. Caemlyn had never made for an easy fight. He did not envy the Houses that had tried to seize it from Elayne.And then there is the Black Tower. And the adjustable dreamspike. Clearly Demandred and Moridin are working together, and have been planning this at least since ACOS or TPOD when they started building the wall - I'm assuming that Moridin is the authority but Demandred is the planner. That wall was always pretty useless and stupid for an army of channelers - Logain said as much - but with the dreamspike, it all makes sense. The mercenary bands look innocent enough, but in the context they're pretty damn fishy. And the only thing standing between the massive army of Shadowspawn in Caemlyn and the massive untrustworthy numbers outside of it is half of the Band.

I expect this dreamspike will be guarded by Moghedien and Lanfear and maybe even Moridin himself, rather than just Slayer. Interesting how the three most talented in the Dream of all the Forsaken are among the five still living, and one of them is Moridin, and the other two are his Mindtrapped slaves.

This could get interesting.

Toss the dice
04-26-2011, 05:52 AM
I agree that the Legion is a mysterious group right now, and could very well be involved with Bashere's "something dark." I also agree that there's a great chance the Legion is being controlled somehow by the Shadow, whether that's through Taim, Demandred, or someone else.

However, how do you know any of the Legion is still at Caemlyn? None of the quotes you gave alluded to that fact, unless I am blind. They just speak of general mercenary bands (or generic run of the mill sellswords), that had cropped up due to the war and were looking for a job. Furthermore, in none of Mat's fairly content-heavy povs concerning the subject, does he even come remotely close to mentioning the Legion. The Legion that he himself co-created, which he should be able to spot on sight. Rather, he names them as essentially a motley collection of cowardly mercenary bands and cowardly countrymen that took their sweet time to arrive, for obvious reasons.

GonzoTheGreat
04-26-2011, 06:27 AM
Of course, if the Legion is parked on the other side of Caemlyn from where the Band is staying, then Mat may never have come within three miles distance from them.

Toss the dice
04-26-2011, 07:28 AM
Of course, if the Legion is parked on the other side of Caemlyn from where the Band is staying, then Mat may never have come within three miles distance from them.

Not only has Mat not seen them, he hasn't heard about them being camped near Caemlyn either, at least on-screen. You would think something like that would be "screen-worthy."

Since the Legion hasn't been mentioned whatsoever, however vaguely, as being camped near Caemlyn, imo its a safe bet they aren't camped there unless they're hiding.

My point wasn't so much that at least part of the Legion COULDN'T be there. I actually would like that idea, especially if they were involved with Caemlyn burning right now. It's that Terez gave no evidence whatsoever that the Legion is at Caemlyn. She kept quoting passages concerning the mercenaries, implying that the Legion was among them. I could count that a decent possibility if all we had to go on were Elayne's povs. But Mat's povs in addition to hers pretty much kill the notion dead. Like no chance in hell.

Terez
04-26-2011, 07:50 AM
Since the Legion hasn't been mentioned whatsoever, however vaguely, as being camped near Caemlyn.
Wat? They've been there forever...and whether or not they were still there was left hanging, quite purposefully, I think.

Elayne laid one finger atop a bronze horseman less than a hand tall, standing a few leagues west of the city. “Someone needs to take a look at Davram Bashere’s camp. Find out whether the Saldaeans are leaving, too. And the Legion of the Dragon.” It did not matter if they were, really. They had not interfered in matters, thank the Light, and the time when fear that they might restrained Arymilla was long past. But she disliked things happening in Andor without her knowledge. “Send Guardsmen to the Black Tower tomorrow, as well. Tell them to count how many Asha’man they see.”
Since they are 'training' it's unlikely they were deployed anywhere - there was no mention of them being deployed with the Asha'man in Arad Doman and Illian. The camp was a good distance from the city, not far from where Bashere and the Aiel were camped, just to make it clear they weren't going to get involved with the Succession.

Also, don't have time to look but I think they were both west of the city.

Weird Harold
04-26-2011, 11:19 AM
Since they are 'training' it's unlikely they were deployed anywhere - there was no mention of them being deployed with the Asha'man in Arad Doman and Illian.

IIRC, Ituralde commanded a good portion of rand's forces in Saldea who were NOT local recruits. Rand has military actions ongoing all over Randland and couldn't possibly support all of them with just the Aiel and local recruits.

Since the source of most of the Legion's recruits is likely still BT rejects, there is probably still a basic training camp/collection center near Caemlyn, but holding recruits there for endless training when there is so much opportunity for them to gain real combat experience going on in Randland doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

Toss the dice
04-26-2011, 11:57 AM
IIRC, Ituralde commanded a good portion of rand's forces in Saldea who were NOT local recruits. Rand has military actions ongoing all over Randland and couldn't possibly support all of them with just the Aiel and local recruits.

Since the source of most of the Legion's recruits is likely still BT rejects, there is probably still a basic training camp/collection center near Caemlyn, but holding recruits there for endless training when there is so much opportunity for them to gain real combat experience going on in Randland doesn't make any kind of sense at all.

That makes sense.

I got the impression that the mercenaries we are speaking of are all accounted for, for Elayne and Mat both, in large part due to their density and short distance from Caemlyn. Because of this, I assumed the mercenaries in question, from both Elayne and Mat's povs, did not include the Legion. I'm not sure exactly where their Caemlyn collection center is, but I'm fairly certain they don't have a large standing army just twiddling their thumbs and hanging out with all the other mercenaries. Elayne knows enough to be able to tell them apart, and Mat certainly does. For that matter, I think anyone would, as they ARE the folks with the funny coats, who use crossbows and big ass shields. Not exactly run of the mill.

Terez
04-26-2011, 11:58 AM
Well, they were used in Altara against the Seanchan. I have a feeling Rand didn't order them away because he still had notions about protecting Elayne. They could have been mentioned anywhere in books 11-13 for having been deployed elsewhere, but they weren't.

David Selig
04-26-2011, 01:55 PM
Once the Succession struggle was over, it really made no sense for Rand to keep the Legion in Caemlyn, they could only crete problems for Elayne, being essentially a foreign army. And he definitely could've used them somewhere else, like in Illian.

Of course, logical behaviour is not exactly the strong suit of the WoT characters, and Rand had an awful lot of other things on his plate, so the Legion may still be near Caemlyn. In that case not mentioning it at all in ToM would be strange, but still possible.

Edynol
04-26-2011, 04:05 PM
Hmm. I have my own theory, or hope, really, how this will turn out.

Mat and the band(along with some Seanchan), teaming up with Logain and his Ashies/AS against Dred and Taim and their Ashies and AS. It would be an epic battle. On Mat's side, we have Seanchan soldiers, Sul'dam and Dammane, Ashies and AS(Lead by Logain), and the band. On Dred's side, we Those Aiel-looking guys, maybe Channelers from the Isle of Madmen, Ashies and AS(Lead by Taim), and Shadowspawn. So see, everyone has something to fight. Then if Dred presents something new, Mat just blows the Horn and counters that or maybe Elayne's Kin and other forces join in, since this will likely take place in Caemlyn, and owns Dred and Taim.

I see Mat meeting up with Tuon after she captures an all but empty WT when he goes there looking for the Horn. They have their little reunion and Mat being Taveren convinces Tuon to give him a few soldiers, or maybe she makes him take some so he remains safe, seeing as she's clearly as besotted with him as he is with her, though neither will admit it. Anyway, he now has some Seanchan soldiers and channelers and heads to Caemlyn to rejoin the band and finds it under seige by shadowspawn.

Actually, I could see the start of this battle as an Elayne PoV(The chapter switching back and forth between her, Matt, Logain, Dred, and Taim PoVs), her kin and forces along with the Band and others outside the city are fighting the shadowspawn. They have the upper hand at first, but then Taim and Dred show up with channelers and take control of the battle, but then when all seems lost, here comes Mat and the Seanchan with the rest of the Band riding in to the rescue, the Horn of Valare sounding in the distance, and then out of the fog comes Mat, Ashendari held high, followed by the Heroes of the Horn(Ala Aragorn), and they defeat Dred and Taim. Then it's off the Shayul Gul for the main battle to face Saur...I mean Shai'tan.

Terez
04-26-2011, 11:56 PM
Once the Succession struggle was over, it really made no sense for Rand to keep the Legion in Caemlyn, they could only crete problems for Elayne, being essentially a foreign army.
She said in the quote she provided that she didn't care if they stayed. She only would have cared if they'd tried to interfere, which they never did.

And he definitely could've used them somewhere else, like in Illian.
I think that the Asha'man were the most important soldiers there - I thought it kind of odd in TPOD that he bothered bringing normal troops to fight channelers. Basically they were just there to pay the butcher's bill - he brought his least trusted nobles and their troops. And of course, that's when Lord Brend's leftovers joined the Legion.

Schnucker
04-27-2011, 12:23 AM
Are you saying that the Mat and the band would be facing off against the legion of the dragon and the other mercenaries around Caemlyn, or just the legion?

Terez
04-27-2011, 12:25 AM
I figured that more than the Band will be eventually drawn there. It will be Mat vs the Shadowspawn army inside the city, for sure. But I suspect that Murandy will show up, and I also suspect that the mercenaries and the Legion might be under Demandred's thumb.

Schnucker
04-27-2011, 01:01 AM
I can agree with as far as other forces of the light showing up along with Murandy. Even the Legion being under Demandred's thumb. The only part I have a hard time with is the mercenaries. Actually I have a really hard time seeing Moridin being actively involved, but that's a whole other issue.

The mercenaries have been sitting around Caemlyn for what? Two months now? I guess the problem I have is that we haven't seen anything at all that indicates anyone has tried to get them in their pocket. Elayne's game with them is the only real move we have seen to acquire their services. Which by the looks of it is doomed to fail.

I'm starting to think, Mat's reputation burning through Caemlyn like wild fire wasn't all for show. A reputation for never losing in battle, and being luckier than the dark one himself would be pretty appealing traits for a commander. Would probably make you fairly inclined to fight for/with this commander if you were in a pinch. Not including the whole ta'veren thing. I suspect Mat has been winning the future loyalty of these mercenaries the last couple of months.

As far as Moridin goes, him guarding the dream spike goes against every single thing we know about him. Think about it.

Terez
04-27-2011, 02:08 AM
I can agree with as far as other forces of the light showing up along with Murandy. Even the Legion being under Demandred's thumb. The only part I have a hard time with is the mercenaries. Actually I have a really hard time seeing Moridin being actively involved, but that's a whole other issue.
Moridin is probably only actively involved to an extent. Many believe that Moridin is Taim himself, and that really is a whole other issue, but Taim is at the very least taking orders directly from Nae'blis now. His palace is decorated with Moridin's colors, and Moridin has men in black guarding his Blightfortress from nasty things that would give even channelers a hard time. And this dreamspike will need more protection than Slayer - especially now that Perrin has fought Slayer and let him live to tell the tale (quite aside from Mesaana and Egwene, and Nynaeve and Moghedien). So my bets are on Cyndane and Moghedien at least guarding the dreamspike, but Moridin is going to come into it somewhere. All clues point to Rand's death coinciding with the Black Tower showdown, Arthurian legend being the least of them. Egwene dreams of Logain stepping over Rand's dead body to mount a black stone that resembles Taim's stone for addressing the Asha'man, a symbol of his position of power over them. The dark prophecy at the end of TOM suggests that Rand will fall to the Midnight Towers - most likely Moridin himself, since he represents all of them - and Nicola's Foretelling indicates that, as of Rand's death, the Guardians and Servants are on the same team but the land is still divided by the Return. That suggests that the Black Tower issue has been resolved, but the Last Battle isn't won yet because the two must be as one for that to happen. That explains why the three women are hanging over Mr. Dead-Yet-Living in the boat. They still need him (and they probably have to bond him again to save him from his having been ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod). Meanwhile, Mat and Tuon are probably duking it out somewhere, and if I had to guess I'd say that's part of where Moiraine will be important, since she doesn't appear to be around as Rand is being resurrected. But if Rand is going to do the Callandor at Shayol Ghul thing after he comes back to life, then she might possibly be involved there (though I expect Tuon instead).

So, yeah...Moridin pretty much has to be involved at the Battle of Caemlyn, probably at the Black Tower itself, but maybe in Tel'aran'rhiod. Depends on where Rand is, probably. Demandred I expect to mostly play general as far as his net impact, but of course he's going to have a go at Rand somewhere, or he'll try. But I also expect Demandred to be offed in the process. The main showdown, I expect to be between Moridin and Rand, and I expect Moridin to at least appear to win that showdown as Rand dies and he survives. In other words, Min suggests that the link will result in the death of one or the other, and I think it will be Rand.

The mercenaries have been sitting around Caemlyn for what? Two months now? I guess the problem I have is that we haven't seen anything at all that indicates anyone has tried to get them in their pocket.Obviously, this battle is huge and major and has been in the planning for some time now - at least since LOC. Verin knew about it. The prisoners in the dungeon knew about it. The arrival of the mercenaries in the first place was probably at least partly directed - they've been hanging around too long for logic, since doubtless they are eating everything in sight. I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised if they were all paid to hang around Caemlyn, and it could even be a little more complicated than that. Their ranks and even their officers could be heavily infiltrated with Darkfriends.

As far as Moridin goes, him guarding the dream spike goes against every single thing we know about him. Think about it.How about you think about it? Consider how important it is to him. Obviously, he'll have Moghedien and Cyndane on it (unless Cyndane has something better to do, which is possible), but if his assistance is required he will step in. Unless it happens to be time for his confrontation with Rand, which is probably the only thing more important to him.

Schnucker
04-27-2011, 03:36 AM
I have thank you very much :)

Forget the dream spike, yes it is obviously important to him, but look at all his actions in every book until this point. Look at the way other people view him, particularly the other forsaken. Look at what he has and hasn't done until this point.


He's been portrayed as Rands counter part all through the series. The only person he has directly lifted a hand against is Rand. So short of Rand showing up it goes against what we've seen of him thus far. And Rands current disposition doesn't make it seem like he'll be charging in gun ho after the dream spike anytime soon.

He's been shown to been a plotter, an administrator, the guiding hand of the shadow. Just as how Rand has finally come to the realization that he is the hand not the sword, such is Moridin. You would figure that since Rand believes, since epiphamount, that he needs to avoid direct conflict with the shadow until Shayol Ghul; that the same 'rules' would apply to his dark side counter part. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows, but it's a thought to be considered.

There is also the fact that Moridin hasn't made an attempt on rand in, what? 10 books? They have even made some friendly visits to one another. Then that Moridin has forbid other forsaken from harming Rand due to the link... Look at the scene after the Semirhage incident...

Finally, look at the cleansing. Every single other forsaken was commanded to go, so it was without a doubt extremely important. Mesaana even got a special visit for not going. Did Moridin go? No, even after the others got their butts kicked he decided against going to the party. I think we'll all agree that he can throw down harder than most, probably harder than anyone but Rand at this point. So he certainly would have made a difference had he gone, especially wielding the true power. Things likely would have turned out differently. So why didn't he go? You think he was scared?

For the record, I'm not saying if he'll have a hand in the battle behind the scenes or not. Haven't really thought about it, so I can't say. But I know he won't be guarding the dream spike. Doesn't make sense, he'll have his dogs do that. He's the master not the hound, and he knows it.

I thought Arthurian Legend said that Gawyn was going to kill Rand.... weird.

Terez
04-27-2011, 05:36 AM
I feel like you just aren't reading the same books as I am. Moridin has taken a direct hand in a number of things. It depends on what his interests are. He spied on Sammael and Graendal, and Elayne and Aviendha, and he helped Rand in Shadar Logoth for his general amusement. He's given direct orders to Darkfriends, and punished them personally. He's taken a direct hand in the leadership of the Black Ajah. RJ said that the main reason he didn't take a hand in the cleansing was the link between himself and Rand and the possible complications. I already said that he'll have his lackeys guarding the dreamspike and that he would only step in if necessary. Your continued harping on it makes you look dense.

Also, me and Tam are keeping a list of 'Gawyn therefore you are wrong' people so we can laugh at you. ;)

Rand al'Fain
04-27-2011, 11:53 AM
The last I can remember reading anything about the legion's whereabouts, was (other than several hundred going to Altara) were the 15,000 or so that had Traveled to Illian. They've more or less vanished from Caemlyn.

And let's remember, not all of those recruiting parties are Taim or his lackeys. Plus, and we even have confirmation from Tam al'Thor himself, that those who come recruiting only ask for people that want to fight for the Dragon Reborn.

So could some be DFs? Sure. But don't think it would be the entire Legion. Plus, the Legion would have had to assault the walls, and that alone would have raised quite an alarm.

In short, a few too many holes for me to believe that the Legion had much, if anything, to do with the invasion. Especially when everything has pointed to an almost total trolloc/fade force.

Terez
04-28-2011, 12:00 AM
@RandalFain - You remember incorrectly. It's best to get your facts straight before forming opinions on things.

I updated the Legion section (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_986fxmbvpg4&revision=_latest#The_Legion_of_the_Dragon) on the Demandred FAQ page.

Rand al'Fain
04-28-2011, 01:01 AM
@RandalFain - You remember incorrectly. It's best to get your facts straight before forming opinions on things.

I updated the Legion section (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_986fxmbvpg4&revision=_latest#The_Legion_of_the_Dragon) on the Demandred FAQ page.

All I see is a bunch of opinions and answers to those opinions.
The Legion was actually partially Mat's and partially Bashere's idea (said so when the Legion is first introduced), so I'm not sure where you get it that it was Taim's idea in the first place. Do Taim and the rest of the Black Tower provide the troops? Yes. Are some darkfriends? I wouldn't be surprised. Does that mean all of them are? No. All it means, is that it is basically like any other force in Randland.
As for what's his face that led that group of men in Illian and then later joined up, I think it much more likely that it was only he and a couple others at most that would have been DFs. The rest, as said by the messenger when Rand went to go meet them, weren't quite sure what to do with themselves.

Terez
04-28-2011, 03:18 AM
The Legion was actually partially Mat's and partially Bashere's idea (said so when the Legion is first introduced), so I'm not sure where you get it that it was Taim's idea in the first place.
Read the quote I posted and you'll see. Surely at least you see by now that the Legion is camped outside Caemlyn and has been for some time? Mat and Bashere came up with the method to train them. All that means is that they're dangerous.

Are some darkfriends? I wouldn't be surprised. Does that mean all of them are? No.Nobody said all of them are Darkfriends. Pay attention.

The rest, as said by the messenger when Rand went to go meet them, weren't quite sure what to do with themselves.Wat? There were other, separate bands that weren't quite organized, but Padros's band was the largest of all of them that managed to stick together.

Heinz
04-28-2011, 12:11 PM
Nevermind, found other details which contradicts half what I said.

Weird Harold
04-28-2011, 01:16 PM
...I'm not sure where you get it that it was Taim's idea in the first place. ...

From here:

"I can be a little more circumspect than that," Taim said dryly. "I will say I’m recruiting men to follow the Dragon Reborn." A little more circumspect? Not much. "That should frighten the people just enough to keep them from my throat long enough to gather in whoever is willing. And it culls out anybody who isn’t ready to support you. I don’t suppose you mean to train up men who’ll turn on you the first chance they find." He raised a questioning eyebrow, but did not wait for the unnecessary answer. "Once I have them safely away from the village, I can bring them here through a gateway. Some might panic, but they should not be too hard to handle. Once they’ve agreed to follow a man who can channel, they can hardly balk at letting me test them. Those who fail, I’ll send on to Caemlyn. It’s time you started raising an army of your own instead of depending on others. Bashere could change his mind; he will, if Queen Tenobia tells him to. And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do."

Rand al'Fain
04-28-2011, 11:34 PM
From here:

A suggestion. However, it was Mat and Bashere that put the Legion itself together, not Taim. Taim, other than bringing some of those men (most were not brought by him though, but by others), had very little to nothing to do with the Legion.

Wat? There were other, separate bands that weren't quite organized, but Padros's band was the largest of all of them that managed to stick together.I know. I was talking about Padros' band there. But the scout that Rand had met with had said that Padros' band were not sure what to do, and weren't even sure of what was going on in the city of Illian itself. But what you were hinting at, was that the entire band that Padros was in charge of were all DFs simply because Padros tried to kill Rand.

Nobody said all of them are Darkfriends. Pay attention.You didn't say it, but boy were you hinting at it.

Read the quote I posted and you'll see. Surely at least you see by now that the Legion is camped outside Caemlyn and has been for some time? Mat and Bashere came up with the method to train them. All that means is that they're dangerous.
Finally found that pinprick of a quote, though it seems to me that the last two books jump from time frame to time frame, but oh well.

Amd of course they're dangerous. But so are the Saldeans, the Asha'men, the Aiel, the Tairens, Illianers, Two Rivers longbowmen, Seanchan, Sharans (ooh look, another group we here next to nothing about!), Sheinarans, and all of the other armed groups throughout Randland.

Terez
04-29-2011, 12:01 AM
A suggestion. However, it was Mat and Bashere that put the Legion itself together, not Taim.
It doesn't matter; it was his idea, and it's fed by his recruiting groups. Mat has nothing to do with them at all aside from the ideas he contributed to their training regimen, and even Bashere's involvement with them is bound to be minimal.

I know. I was talking about Padros' band there. But the scout that Rand had met with had said that Padros' band were not sure what to do, and weren't even sure of what was going on in the city of Illian itself.
Where?

But what you were hinting at, was that the entire band that Padros was in charge of were all DFs simply because Padros tried to kill Rand.
That's not what I was hinting at, at all. I think their leaders are probably Darkfriends, and like Rand said about the White Lions, there are probably many Darkfriends in their ranks (and for the same reasons).

Finally found that pinprick of a quote
It wasn't a pinprick at all. Just you being lazy and forming opinions while having no clue what you are talking about.

Amd of course they're dangerous. But so are the Saldeans, the Asha'men, the Aiel, the Tairens, Illianers, Two Rivers longbowmen, Seanchan, Sharans (ooh look, another group we here next to nothing about!), Sheinarans, and all of the other armed groups throughout Randland.
None of them are suspected of being enemies, so I'm not sure what your point is. The Sharans are not the Dragon Reborn's personal army.

Why don't you go back to Non? You stick out like a sore thumb here.

Weiramon
04-29-2011, 01:49 AM
Burn me, this is ridiculous!

Unfounded speculation based on false rumours.

A man goes hunting quail innocently with a bow, and he is branded as a Darkfriend attempting to murder the Lord Dragon.

As for the supposed Trolloc attack in Caemlyn, that is preposterous. A letter from a known Black Sister? Better to rely on the word of an illeterate urchin. More likely some rabble in the city broke into an abandoned warehouse looking for food, and came across some Illuminators magics. Best to stand the troops down, sit back and enjoy the fireworks from a safe distance outside the walls.

As for the rest, might as well call the Light dark and the Dark light to suggest that a brave charge on horseback against a formidable Seanchean opponent is an attempt on the life of the Lord Dragon. No one could have known that leaving him completely unguarded on the battlefield would have opened him to a counterattack.

Mothers milk in a cup, next people will be saying that if one looks at the Lord Dragon the wrong way it's proof they are a Friend of the . . . I mean a Darkfriend.

Toss the dice
04-29-2011, 02:05 AM
It is clear that the Legion was Taim's idea, as he was the one that originally brought up the idea of a regular army made up of "failed" Ashaman recruits.

I disagree that Bashere's involvement with the Legion has been minimal. He's the one that has personally overseen and trained the Legion, based on the training regimen he and Mat worked out. In LoC (if I remember right), it seemed half of what he talked about was the Legion, updating Rand on his progress with the great collection of farmers and beggars that he had the task of forming into a respectable army.

However, while Bashere's involvement with the Legion was heavy earlier on, the last few books have left a hole as to exactly where the Legion is and what's going on with them. I'm assuming that Bashere had a heavy hand with them up through the battles with the Seanchan in PoD. After that, I can't remember a whole lot about them: who is training them, who is commanding them, where they are. Due to the need for soldiers and all the fighting all over Randland, taken objectively, I would find it hard to believe the bulk of them are simply languishing near Caemlyn. But that's the problem. We have little to no actual on-screen evidence of where they are, whether they are all near Caemlyn, split up five different ways and fighting all over the map, or anything in between.

Does anyone have any real evidence, rather than opinions and educated guesses, as to where the Legion is now?

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2011, 02:46 AM
It doesn't matter; it was his idea, and it's fed by his recruiting groups. Mat has nothing to do with them at all aside from the ideas he contributed to their training regimen, and even Bashere's involvement with them is bound to be minimal.And not all of those recruiting groups are under Taim's influence. You are jumping to conclusions with only some of the facts.

Where?
At the edge of the wooded area where Padros and his men are.

That's not what I was hinting at, at all. I think their leaders are probably Darkfriends, and like Rand said about the White Lions, there are probably many Darkfriends in their ranks (and for the same reasons).The White Lions were formed personally by one of the Forsaken. Taim offered the idea to Rand with a chance of Rand just incorporating those men into the Tiaren or Cairheinen forces instead. Rahvin had personal oversight to the White Lions. Bashere and his men trained the Legion themselves to the point where the Legion could train new recruits without Bashere.


It wasn't a pinprick at all. Just you being lazy and forming opinions while having no clue what you are talking about. Considering the format and how jumbled everything is on there, yes, it was a pin prick.


None of them are suspected of being enemies, so I'm not sure what your point is. The Sharans are not the Dragon Reborn's personal army.And the only reason you think the Legion is, is because we haven't had a POV from them. But we haven't had one from Loghain, or Amys, or Rhaurc, yet it is widely known that DFs can be Kings and Queens, all the way down to beggars in the street. Also, the Aiel are Rand's personal army, and only one DF has shown herself so far. How many more could be DFs?

Why don't you go back to Non? You stick out like a sore thumb here.And why should I listen to someone that spouts their opinions as facts? Based on shaky evidence no less.

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2011, 02:47 AM
It is clear that the Legion was Taim's idea, as he was the one that originally brought up the idea of a regular army made up of "failed" Ashaman recruits.

I disagree that Bashere's involvement with the Legion has been minimal. He's the one that has personally overseen and trained the Legion, based on the training regimen he and Mat worked out. In LoC (if I remember right), it seemed half of what he talked about was the Legion, updating Rand on his progress with the great collection of farmers and beggars that he had the task of forming into a respectable army.

However, while Bashere's involvement with the Legion was heavy earlier on, the last few books have left a hole as to exactly where the Legion is and what's going on with them. I'm assuming that Bashere had a heavy hand with them up through the battles with the Seanchan in PoD. After that, I can't remember a whole lot about them: who is training them, who is commanding them, where they are. Due to the need for soldiers and all the fighting all over Randland, taken objectively, I would find it hard to believe the bulk of them are simply languishing near Caemlyn. But that's the problem. We have little to no actual on-screen evidence of where they are, whether they are all near Caemlyn, split up five different ways and fighting all over the map, or anything in between.

Does anyone have any real evidence, rather than opinions and educated guesses, as to where the Legion is now?
Some are in Caemlyn, but at least 15,000 went to Illian during the battle, and several hundred from there joined up for the battles in Altara.

Terez
04-29-2011, 03:45 AM
And not all of those recruiting groups are under Taim's influence. You are jumping to conclusions with only some of the facts.
And what conclusion am I jumping to, exactly? Certainly nothing based on this one fact alone.

At the edge of the wooded area where Padros and his men are.
Quote it.

The White Lions were formed personally by one of the Forsaken.
Padros's men were those most loyal to Sammael.

Considering the format and how jumbled everything is on there, yes, it was a pin prick.
It's quite organized. You simply didn't read it. And then you proceeded to form opinions on it.

And why should I listen to someone that spouts their opinions as facts? Based on shaky evidence no less.
You shouldn't. You should just shut up so as to not make yourself look like the idiot you are any longer.

Terez
04-29-2011, 03:53 AM
I disagree that Bashere's involvement with the Legion has been minimal. He's the one that has personally overseen and trained the Legion, based on the training regimen he and Mat worked out. In LoC (if I remember right), it seemed half of what he talked about was the Legion, updating Rand on his progress with the great collection of farmers and beggars that he had the task of forming into a respectable army.
Which still probably amounted to minimal involvement. As in, he promoted officers and gave them instructions, and he conducted inspections, but he probably did little of the real training himself. A general's involvement with any army is minimal just by the nature of the job, and more so when it's his second job. Third, counting his being an advisor to Rand.

Does anyone have any real evidence, rather than opinions and educated guesses, as to where the Legion is now?
As stated already, they were last seen in Caemlyn with no sign of them leaving, and the TOM glossary states that they are training for the Last Battle. The only campaign we know of that they have been used for was the Altaran campaign in TPOD. They returned to Caemlyn after that (or, more precisely, to their camp a few leagues west of the city).

The Angry Druid
04-29-2011, 09:41 AM
I think it is a nice idea about the Legion being somewhat fishy. However, they have performed adequately enough up utill know against the Seanchan and other places.

I think most men who volunteered to fight for the Dragon would be Lightfriends. Even among Asha'man, most have proven true. Taim seems to be using the OP (or the TP) to enhance his numbers. And it took a while for him to do so. With the Legion, he's had next to no direct contact with the recruits, who have been under the eye of Bashere and Mat much more.

I'm not saying there couldn't be DF's in there, I'm sure there are (unless Rand lined them all up and did his trick), but I think they are the exception rather than the rule.

And there is a good reason to keep them in Caemlyn, or at least a decent one. A couple, in fact.

First, as mentioned, they are the result of BT recruiting trips, so the are returning to Caemlyn (BT). It just makes it easier logistically for them to be there.

Second, there really haven't been a lot of "safe" places to muster and train a force throughout the books. Borderlanders would see them as invaders, and Rand didn't have control over them anyway. Tear was in Forsaken control, and then had a rebellion going. And Rand wanted to stay away from Callandor's temptations. Illian was also under Forsaken control until the end of aCoS, and is facing Seanchan threat. Cairhein has been a mess for a while since Thom killed it's king and the Aiel came. And the other lands were all unstable or swallowed by Seanchan. Yes, Caemlyn is a good place for them.

As regards the fact that the best of the Shadow's Dreamers still live (Ishy, Moggy, Lanfear) + Slayer. I also think this portends more T'A'R action for Egwene, Perrin, and maybe Rand. Though I'd say that Mesaana was a top tier performer in the dream. Probably better than Moggy, at least.

Terez
04-29-2011, 10:33 AM
I think most men who volunteered to fight for the Dragon would be Lightfriends. Even among Asha'man, most have proven true.
And among the Asha'man, Taim has put all of his Darkfriends in positions of power because he has the freedom to do so. It doesn't matter if most of the Legion is composed of Lightfriends if their leaders are Darkfriends.

Taim seems to be using the OP (or the TP) to enhance his numbers. And it took a while for him to do so. With the Legion, he's had next to no direct contact with the recruits, who have been under the eye of Bashere and Mat much more.
They haven't been under the eye of Mat at all. And Taim doesn't need to have contact with them - all he had to do was inform his higher-ups about the opportunity and take advantage through the network of Darkfriends.

No one's saying there aren't believable reasons for the Legion to be in Caemlyn. That's why they have been relatively unsuspected so far.

As regards the fact that the best of the Shadow's Dreamers still live (Ishy, Moggy, Lanfear) + Slayer. I also think this portends more T'A'R action for Egwene, Perrin, and maybe Rand. Though I'd say that Mesaana was a top tier performer in the dream. Probably better than Moggy, at least.
There is no evidence to support that. Nothing Mesaana did in the dream was particularly indicative of talent.

GonzoTheGreat
04-29-2011, 11:03 AM
Nothing Mesaana did in the dream was particularly indicative of talent.She did not go there in the flesh. If she had, no one would ever have discovered Danelle in the real world.
Admittedly, that's not necessarily evidence of a whole lot of talent. But it is indicative of at least some talent.

Terez
04-29-2011, 11:08 AM
Which is why I used the word 'particularly'. Egwene can Heal a bruise - that is not particularly indicative of Talent, though. And Mesaana might have had a ter'angreal, though I find it unlikely.

Edynol
04-29-2011, 11:50 AM
Yeah anyone could go to TAR in the flesh. That takes no talent at all. And Mesa didn't show anymore talent at the dream then anyone else. Wow. She made an A'dam, Ny did that when she was still relatively new at TAR.

Also remember that even if most of the Ashies are Lightfriends, they can still be turned with 13x13. Those turned by 13x13 I don't consider DFs, I see it as being under heavy compulsion, of a sort. So while most of them might have joined to serve the Dragon, alot of them now serve the shadow against their will.

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2011, 11:57 AM
And what conclusion am I jumping to, exactly? Certainly nothing based on this one fact alone.To the conclusion that the Legion MUST be formed of DFs simply because you want it to, and based off of a few very shaky "facts."


Quote it.So you've never read "The Path of Daggers" then? Good to know. Takes place just before Rand begins his attacks in Altara. I'd look for the chapter, but I'm short on time at the moment.


Padros's men were those most loyal to Sammael.They were most loyal to the High COuncil of Illian. They didn't want to go home without weapons for fear of bandits jumping them, and they were wary of joining up with the new ruler of Illian, who they had just fought against a short time before. Really, not that hard to believe, considering that most of them had probably been no more than farmers or other simple tradesmen a short time before.


It's quite organized. You simply didn't read it. And then you proceeded to form opinions on it.Other than the quotes from the book and a few from the authors, the rest IS opinion. You simply don't wish to believe otherwise.


You shouldn't. You should just shut up so as to not make yourself look like the idiot you are any longer.So disagreeing with your opinions makes me an idiot? Good to know you are resorting to insulting people rather than trying to back up your opinions in a debate using logic and actual proof. It's very telling of how well your ego is doing thus far.

Toss the dice
04-29-2011, 03:08 PM
Which still probably amounted to minimal involvement. As in, he promoted officers and gave them instructions, and he conducted inspections, but he probably did little of the real training himself. A general's involvement with any army is minimal just by the nature of the job, and more so when it's his second job. Third, counting his being an advisor to Rand.

It all depends what you consider "minimal involvement." I agree that he probably promoted officers, gave them instructions, and conducted inspections, as his primary duties with the Legion. I consider that as heavy involvement, as their entire training regimen and core of their army was instilled personally by Bashere. Regardless of the chain of command, it was his army as the hands-on general (rather than Mat or Rand). I suppose he could have had even more involvement if he bathed with the soldiers, sat around the campfire and told sexy stories about his Deira, things of that nature. But short of that, at least earlier on, I am unsure how you consider Bashere's involvment with the Legion "minimal."

Do you consider Mat's involvement with the Band minimal? I would say he has had similar exposure to the Band's average soldier, that Bashere had with the average Legion soldier in the earlier days. And yet, the Band is 100% Mat. The entire army lives and breathes Mat Cauthon, in every way imaginable. Could Mat's involvment with the Band be considered minimal, due to his time away from them? The fact that the average soldier doesn't get his feet rubbed daily by Cauthon? The fact that underofficers are in charge of the actual training, as it would simply be nonsense for one man to personally give hands-on training to thousands of men? The fact that Talmanes (and others) have recruited men in Mat's absence?

Of course not. The very notion that Mat Cauthon's involvement in the Band of the Red Hand has been "minimal" is ridiculous. More like bordering on blasphemy.

As stated already, they were last seen in Caemlyn with no sign of them leaving, and the TOM glossary states that they are training for the Last Battle. The only campaign we know of that they have been used for was the Altaran campaign in TPOD. They returned to Caemlyn after that (or, more precisely, to their camp a few leagues west of the city). Fair enough. It's too bad we have nothing to go on after that.

Terez
04-29-2011, 08:57 PM
The point with Bashere is that his involvement with them is not such that he would necessarily have any idea if the ranks were being infiltrated with Darkfriends.

My ignore list has been clear for a while, but some people are just too dumb to read.

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2011, 10:19 PM
Terez gets called out on a theory that has little to support it, and people go the ignore list. BRILLIANT!
I wonder if in A Memory of Light, that the Legion of the Dragon (if they are there) joins the Band, and then the two fight off the invaders, that Terez will try to put Sanderson on the ignore list.

Edynol
04-29-2011, 10:57 PM
Honestly, why argue about theories? That's all most of this talk is. Just makes ya both look immature.

But on topic, there are DFs everywhere. There could be some in the Band, in Perrin's group, in Rand's, the Aiel, anywhere. Heck even Talmanes could be a DF. Though I'd be really sad if that turned out true cause I really doubt it. Just sayin. We won't really know anything until the book comes out. I mean, I never expected Wieramon(sp?) to be a DF or believed Verin to be BA even though others suspected(Though imo she really never was BA). I mean, I know was a member of the BA, but I don't consider her 'a part' of it.

Heck, I have suspicions that Lioal's mother is an Ogier DF. I have no real theories to back it up, but she just rubs me the wrong way.

Terez
04-29-2011, 11:01 PM
Honestly, why argue about theories?
Because this is Theoryland. Are you lost?

We won't really know anything until the book comes out.
I really hate it when people come on Theoryland saying stuff like this.

I mean, I never expected Wieramon(sp?) to be a DF
We did.

Rand al'Fain
04-29-2011, 11:20 PM
I mean, I never expected Wieramon(sp?) to be a DF There were only two possibilities to him.
1. Him being a DF.
2. Him being the most idiotic person in the world and had somehow learned not to hold his breath indefinitly.

Granted, he's still probably not the brightest of the DFs, but he was still a DF and you could see it a mile away.

Edynol
04-29-2011, 11:38 PM
Well then what made you think he was a DF?

Kimon
04-29-2011, 11:44 PM
Well then what made you think he was a DF?

The scene in PoD where he breaks off midsentence while talking with Gedwyn.

Terez
04-29-2011, 11:46 PM
When I was a noob, Emma made fun of me for thinking that theory was original. I mention that a lot.

Edynol
04-30-2011, 12:02 AM
Heheh. I just find it funny that yall actually get upset over worthless theories. I mean, it's fun to theorize, that's why I'm here, but arguing about and nerd-raging is just funny to me. lol.

I mean, I am convinced Taim is a DF, I think it's obvious, but I've seen alot of people who don't think he is. That he's just power hungry, with theories to go either way. So instead of just saying 'we knew', why not try supporting it. Make it obvious to me what I missed. Him breaking off mid sentence could mean anything.

Terez
04-30-2011, 12:17 AM
I remembered that Tamyrlin emailed me that on my request (he deleted all of the posts from our first testing stage of this forum). At the time, no Younglings were allowed on the new boards, and I was just barely an Elder.

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- - Weiramon is a Darkfriend (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=128) (http://www.theoryland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=128 (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/../forum/showthread.php?t=128))

Terez01-18-2006 07:12 AM

Weiramon is a Darkfriend

Yes, I know, who cares, but he is.;) I felt kind of stupid when I realized it on this re-read, so I looked around to see if it was old news, but I didn't find anything on Theoryland, and the couple of mentions I found on other sites didn't cover all of the points, so it's not surprising that few were convinced.

In PoD, Ch. 22, "Gathering Clouds," Rand is almost killed by Eagan Padros, the commander of "Lord Brend's" leftovers. Gedwyn and Rochaid, known Darkfriends, were obviously involved. A bit later...

THE PATH OF DAGGERS, Chapter 23, "Fog of War, Storm of Battle"

Flinn looked up at Rand worriedly. "You mean to stay here alone, my Lord Dragon?"

"I'm hardly alone," Rand said dryly...Weiramon had the northern end of this ridge secured so a fly could not pass, he claimed, and Bashere held the south..."And I'm hardly helpless, anyway, Flinn." Right after Flinn and Dashiva take off, Rand gets an arrow. Yet another assassination attempt. And then...

Vaguely he became aware of ululating cries. Horsemen appeared among the trees to the north, galloping along the ridge, some with lowered lances, some working short bows as fast as they could nock and draw. Horsemen in blue-and-yellow armor of overlapping plates, and helmets like huge insects' heads. Seanchan, several hundred of them it seemed. From the north. So much for Weiramon's fly. It turns out Weiramon was out of position, as usual. Anaiyella and Ailil both consider killing Rand while he lays there dying, but Bashere, and Fedwin Morr, come to the rescue. After Morr Heals Rand, and the battle is in the retreat/pursuit stages, Weiramon shows back up:

Most of the Saldaeans and Illianers were galloping north or riding down the slope of the ridge, pursuing the last of the Seanchan. And then Weiramon appeared from the north, riding a tall, glossy black at a slow canter that picked up when he saw Rand. His armsmen rode in double file at his back.

"My Lord Dragon," the High Lord intoned as he dismounted. He still seemed as clean as he had in Illian. Bashere simply looked rumpled and a bit grimy here and there, but Gregorin's finery was decidedly dirt-stained, and slashed down one sleeve besides. Weiramon flourished a bow to shame a king's court. "Forgive me, my Lord Dragon. I thought I saw Seanchan advancing in front of the ridge and went to meet them. I never suspected this other company. You can't know how it would pain me if you were injured."

"I think I know," Rand said dryly, and Weiramon blinked. Seanchan advancing? Perhaps. Weiramon would always snatch at a chance for glory in the charge. Next, Weiramon and a few suspect others suggest a rash course:

Surprisingly - or perhaps not - Weiramon began arguing for an advance, to "take Ebou Dar for the glory of the Lord of the Morning," as he put it, but it was certainly a shock to hear Gedwyn say he would not mind taking a few more swipes at these Seanchan and he certainly would not mind seeing Ebou Dar. Even Ailil and Anaiyella added their voices in favor of "putting an end to the Seanchan once and for all," though Ailil did add that she would as soon like to avoid having to return to finish. She was quite sure the Lord Dragon would insist on her company for it. A bit later, it's obvious Rand lit into Weiramon for his indiscretion:

Chapter 24, "A Time for Iron"

"About ten miles from us, a good fifty thousand men are preparing to march...the scouts saw no signs of sul'dam or damane, but even without them, even with Asha'man, that's enough to kill a lot of us if anybody forgets the plan. No one will forget, though, I'm sure." No charges without orders, this time. He had made that clear as glass, and hard as stone. No haring off because you thought maybe you just might have seen something, either.

Weiramon smiled, managing to put as much oil into it as Sunamon ever could. Rand sent everyone off into separate positions, and Gedwyn was with Weiramon:

Gedwyn rode by Weiramon's side almost as if he were the one leading, and got dark scowls for it that he affected not to notice...Rochaid seemed to be trying the same with Bashere that Gedwyn was with Weiramon, but Bashere appeared to ignore it. The kicker is in Bertome's point of view, though:

That fool Tairen dog Weiramon was blind...Bertome glared at the puffed-up buffoon's back. Weiramon rode well ahead of the rest in deep conversation with Gedwyn, and if Bertome needed any further proof that the Tairen would smile at what gagged a goat, it was how he tolerated that hot-eyed young monster...(Bertome) had sent a dozen scouts forward...Weiramon had sent one....

Absorbed in one another, Weiramon and Gedwyn did not hear him riding up on them. Gedwyn was idly playing with his reins, his features cold with contempt. The Tairen was red-faced. "I don't care who you are," he was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, "I won't take more risk without a command direct from the lips of -"

Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome, and Weiramon's mouth snapped shut. He glared as if he wanted to kill Bertome. The Asha'man's ever-present smile melted away. The wind gusted, cold and sharp as clouds drifted across the sun, but no colder than Gedwyn's sudden stare. With a small shock Bertome realized the man also wanted to strike him dead on the spot.

Gedwyn's icily murderous gaze did not change, but Weiramon's face underwent a remarkable transformation. The red faded slowly as he produced a smile in an instant, and oily smile with only a trace of mocking condescension. "I've been thinking about you, Bertome," he said heartily. "A pity al'Thor strangled your cousin. With his own hands, I hear. Frankly, I was surprised you came when he called. I've seen him watching you. I fear he plans something more . . . interesting . . . for you than thrashing your heels on the floor while his fingers tighten on your throat." ...
What did Weiramon want? Certainly not what it seemed on the surface. Even this Tairen oaf was not that simple...Then a scout brings news of the foe, and the battle ensues...

Weiramon laughed. "Kill whoever you wish, wherever you wish, Gedwyn," he said, drawing sword with a flourish. "I use the methods I use, and that's that!" Racing back toward his armsmen, he waved the blade over his head shouting, "Saniago! Saniago and glory!" It was no surprise he did not add a shout for his country to those for his House and his greatest love...What had the man been after? Points of proof:

1. Non-Asha'man do not talk to Asha'man, if it can be helped. They certainly do not treat with Asha'man.

2. Gedwyn would not be stupid enough to issue orders contradicting Rand's orders to a non-Darkfriend.

3. It was fairly obvious from their conversation that Weiramon's being out of position earlier was at Gedwyn's command, and supposedly handed down from someone higher. Likely, though not certain, the attempt on Rand's life during that moment was Weiramon's work.

4. Weiramon was refusing to risk another attempt, either at battle confusion or assassination, because Rand set him down so hard earlier, and another attempt would be an obvious betrayal.

5. If Weiramon had been going to say "from the lips of the Lord Dragon," why did he stop speaking? More likely "from the lips of Moridin," or Demandred.

6. Why else would Weiramon and Gedwyn be so displeased with Bertome overhearing the conversation at all? They both wanted to kill him. It's also difficult to find another reason for Weiramon's taunt.

7. Last, but not least, there was a High Lord of Tear at the Darkfriend Social.



Isabel 01-18-2006 07:45 AM

yeah duh:P :P



Weird Harold 01-18-2006 11:08 AM

Yes, I know, who cares, but he is.;) I felt kind of stupid when I realized it on this re-read, so I looked around to see if it was old news, but I didn't find anything on Theoryland, and the couple of mentions I found on other sites didn't cover all of the points, so it's not surprising that few were convinced.
The big question is not whether the readers know that Weiramon is a DF, but whether Rand has figured it out.

However, despite all of the evidence, it's still just barely possible that Weiramon is just incompetent, stupid, arrogant, and ambitious. I think Rand is still giving Weiramon the benefit of the doubt on the DF charge.:rolleyes:

DFs are NOT the only ones who want Rand dead -- in fact at the time Gedwyn was trying his best to arrange situations where the Seanchan would kill Rand, DFs were supposed to be avoiding killing him. (not that Rand would know that.)

Like Mazrim Taim's, Weiramon's status as a DF is fairly certain, but exactly when he became a DF is uncertain. Weiramon has, IMHO, always been a DF, but the evidence could support a later conversion, too.

"Never attribute to Malice what can be explained by Stupidity" -- most of Weiramon's earliest actions and attitudes can be explained away by stupity.

Enigma 01-18-2006 01:35 PM

Weiramon came from a position of near absolute power before Rand changed the rules in Tear. He is used to getting his own way with his whim being law in Tear. When someone is that powerful and very few checks on their power the very powerful can also be very stupid.

It is possible that darkfriends are using Weiramon's stupidity for their own ends but if he was a darkfriend I doubt he would be as blatant about going against Rand's wishes. Most of the other darkfriends try to keep what they are doing a secret.

Of course he could be a bit like a dark scarlet pimpernel, on the surface a foppish fool but really very clever and very brave.



SauceyBlueConfetti 01-18-2006 02:46 PM

foppish is such a great word

and foppish is exactly how I have always envisioned Weiramon. Personally, I have always struggled with whether he is or is not a DF. I am still not convinced, although the quote supporting this:

5. If Weiramon had been going to say "from the lips of the Lord Dragon," why did he stop speaking? More likely "from the lips of Moridin," or Demandred. was a great catch.

hmmm. still puzzled on this one. RAFO I guess



Jocham 01-18-2006 05:13 PM

Actually I was going with rands thought, weiramon is just stupid and arrogant etc...

however this sheds some light on the matter.
And I think I have changed my mind :)

so, well done :)



Terez 01-18-2006 05:13 PM

most of Weiramon's earliest actions and attitudes can be explained away by stupidity.
There is also a great debate in Rand's mind in these chapters on the line between Weiramon's intelligence and his stupidity. Too intelligent to do this, too stupid to do that. I think a lot of his apparent stupidity is a farce - part of an effort to follow his orders and stay close to Rand. I'm also pretty sure he doesn't have a clue Weiramon is a DF. How could he know? Sorry, I didn't know it was a "duh," Isa, or I wouldn't have tried to convince anyone.;) Vbulletin's forum search will fix that, once everything is integrated.:D The few mentions I did find didn't convince anyone Weiramon was a DF.



Weird Harold 01-18-2006 09:24 PM

Weiramon came from a position of near absolute power before Rand changed the rules in Tear. He is used to getting his own way with his whim being law in Tear. When someone is that powerful and very few checks on their power the very powerful can also be very stupid.

...

Of course he could be a bit like a dark scarlet pimpernel, on the surface a foppish fool but really very clever and very brave.[/quote]
I've always seen Weiramon as a stereotype of all the worst excesses of "Nobility" and not completely in touch with reality.

Before Rand changed all the rules on him, there was no real reason for him to be a DF but he was always a prime candidate to be recruited OR manipulated by DFs.

As the series progressed, I became more convinced that he was almost immediately recruited as soon as Bel'al established control over Tear if he wasn't instrumental in giving Bel'al control in the first place.

By the time he was caught in his argument with Gedwyn, any doubt in my mind was removed that he had been recruited and is actively working for the DO. The ony uncertainty is whether he was recruited before or after the fall of the Stone.



Terez 01-18-2006 09:34 PM

I say before. I think his actions from the beginning in the Stone are fairly consistent, toward Rand, and I think they point to him following the orders given at the Darkfriend Social. The general orders, and the ones given to him privately, whatever they were. Most likely to keep himself close to Rand whenever he inevitably came for Callandor. I could be wrong, though, but I don't see any evidence that any of the other High Lords are Darkfriends. Just that they want to kill him.

Weiramon is certainly stupid about certain things - after all, he did sell his soul to the Dark One for the promise of an immortality of fear and loathing - but I don't think he's as stupid as he pretends.



Callandor 01-19-2006 06:15 AM

I personally have always liked the end of Weiramon's words to be "from Mazrim Taim."

But what about recent developments?

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - Glimmers of the Pattern

Still, she could not help glancing back at the pair in disapproval. And a bit of wonder. A year ago, Alaine Chuliandred and Fionnda Annariz would have been at each other's throats. Or rather have had their armsmen at one another's throats. But then, who would have expected to see Bertome Saighan walking peacefully with Weiramon Saniago, neither man reaching for the dagger at his belt? Strange times and strange traveling companions. Doubtless they were playing the Game of Houses, maneuvering for advantage as they always had, yet dividing lines that once were graven in stone now turned out to have been drawn on water instead. Very strange times. Strange times indeed.

http://terez2_files/pimp.gif

Terez 01-19-2006 07:07 PM

And that might have answered the question - "What was Weiramon after?" Weiramon's taunt being to the purpose of recruiting an assassination partner. Or the recruiting of another DF? Hmm...

Terez
04-30-2011, 12:24 AM
Heheh. I just find it funny that yall actually get upset over worthless theories. I mean, it's fun to theorize, that's why I'm here, but arguing about and nerd-raging is just funny to me. lol.
We're not arguing about nerd-raging. I'm just amazed at idiots who come in here usually specifically to disagree with me about something, and they don't have any fucking clue what they're talking about. It's called trolling, and stupid trolls are the worst.

I mean, I am convinced Taim is a DF, I think it's obvious, but I've seen alot of people who don't think he is.Yes, and they are either 1) idiots, or 2) supporting the underdog theory for the fun of it. Some of the latter can even make decent arguments, difficult as it is, but most of the arguments are dumb.

So instead of just saying 'we knew', why not try supporting it.You didn't ask for details, so I didn't give them. The details weren't relevant to my point at all. When it comes to consensus or at least majority opinion, we knew that Weiramon was a Darkfriend, that Danelle was Mesaana, that Mat was going to lose an eye, that Moiraine was going to marry Thom, that Noal was Farstrider, etc. That's what we do here. You either dig it or you don't.

Edynol
04-30-2011, 12:27 AM
Hmm. I guess I just didn't see it. When added all together like that, I guess it is obvious. I concede then.

Terez
04-30-2011, 12:52 AM
The great thing about WoT is that you can read it casually, and it's a great story. You can re-read it casually, and notice hundreds of little details you didn't pick up the first time(s) you read it. Or you can re-read it like a fiend and look for all these little details that RJ buried for us to over-analyze. Theoryland falls in the latter group. Really, most WoT sites do to an extent, but we are unquestionably more hardcore about it than other places. That's why people who have absolutely no regard for the details like RAF stick out like a sore thumb. We don't expect you to know everything, but we do expect you to care.

Rand al'Fain
04-30-2011, 01:24 AM
The great thing about WoT is that you can read it casually, and it's a great story. You can re-read it casually, and notice hundreds of little details you didn't pick up the first time(s) you read it. Or you can re-read it like a fiend and look for all these little details that RJ buried for us to over-analyze. Theoryland falls in the latter group. Really, most WoT sites do to an extent, but we are unquestionably more hardcore about it than other places. That's why people who have absolutely no regard for the details like RAF stick out like a sore thumb. We don't expect you to know everything, but we do expect you to care.
So someone disagrees with your opinions and you first call them an idiot, and now a troll. Really, that is just sad. If you are going to flame me, at least make it entertaining, or you could, you know, not be a coward and do it when I'm not on ignore. But such is the life of those with overly inflated egos of themselves. Always have to be right, their opinions are facts, and present theories with very little merit to them and insist that said theories are true.
Well, so much for debating. Some people just can't handle it.

Toss the dice
04-30-2011, 02:38 AM
So someone disagrees with your opinions and you first call them an idiot, and now a troll. Really, that is just sad. If you are going to flame me, at least make it entertaining, or you could, you know, not be a coward and do it when I'm not on ignore. But such is the life of those with overly inflated egos of themselves. Always have to be right, their opinions are facts, and present theories with very little merit to them and insist that said theories are true.
Well, so much for debating. Some people just can't handle it.

I agree wholeheartedly, couldn't have said it better myself.

This forum's purpose is essentially to debate theories. You don't debate Terez. You state your opinion as fact, then put down those that disagree with you. Basically, your character is horrible and your moral compass is broken. You know what a psychopath is right?

Terez
04-30-2011, 08:11 AM
I'm a little sick of the myth that you can't debate with me. It's actually really common for me to have normal debates with people. I get really irritated at people who don't pay attention and don't give a shit about looking at the facts before forming opinions. And I hate trolls. I make no apologies for that, and won't ever.

Rand al'Fain
04-30-2011, 12:14 PM
I agree wholeheartedly, couldn't have said it better myself.

This forum's purpose is essentially to debate theories. You don't debate Terez. You state your opinion as fact, then put down those that disagree with you. Basically, your character is horrible and your moral compass is broken. You know what a psychopath is right?
Wrong. I debate the validity of the Legion being an army of DFs, which Terez used a few fragments that did not say that they were (one way or another) to try and state that they were. And then wrote up a FAQ stating that the Legion HAD to be DFs, with none of the quotes actually saying it, or even hinting at it. I was pointing that out.
I was also stating that even if there were still some of the Legion in Caemlyn, and were somehow invloved with the battle on the DFs side, then they would have been fighting at the walls and not the gates. They had no way of getting in otherwise, and such a thing would have alerted nearly all of the forces in the city before they made much, if any headway. Plus we have no idea of the number of men the Legion could even have there. Considering that Rand has been shuffling troops around everywhere, I'd think it'd be safe to say that the Legion would be nowhere near full strength to begin with.

I'll admit to being an ass, I never claimed otherwise. And yet, you call me a troll for disputing so called facts when the books themselves don't even support them is just clinging at thin air. I'm open to theories in the books, so long as they actually hold some sort of evidence. All I have seen for this one thogh is shaky, and at best, circumstancial.

But hey, go ahead and assume that I'm a troll for being skeptical about so-called evidence. Call me an idiot because I don't buy a far-fetched theory. And put me on ignore because you couldn't give me anything substantial to prove your theory.

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Being a DF army is not necessarily the same as being an army of DFs.
The former can be achieved by planting a few DF officers, and having those officers who are too resistant to the Shadow have "training accidents". The latter could very easily be arranged by letting some of Taim's pupils have "assassination training".
The latter would be a lot more difficult, and probably not cost efficient to the Shadow.

Terez
04-30-2011, 12:47 PM
You don't have to have an army full of Darkfriends to get them to attack non-Darkfriends. Non-Darkfriends have all sorts of reasons for going to war against each other, and some key Darkfriend officers can take advantage of that fact. I don't believe for a second that all of the men with Weiramon in the pass were Darkfriends, but somehow he got away with not doing what he was supposed to be doing anyway. And the Legion seems to be pretty good at following orders. I suspect the Murandians are being rallied mostly against the Andorans, their only real rivals. And of course, the Andorans don't even take them seriously, which pisses them off even more. And so we get people like Elaida and Fain. The mercenaries...they maybe could be tied back to Elayne's drama with the mercenaries during the Succession. They felt under-appreciated, and it was mentioned how mercenaries have a sort of honor code between them which includes not attacking retreating men. Roedran might have hired them all with fake gold. Or real gold. Along with tales of Elayne's horrible mistreatment of mercenaries.

PS - My guess is that Bashere is going to show up more or less alone to order them to the battle, and that he's going to get offed along with whoever might have been unlucky enough to accompany him.

fdsaf3
04-30-2011, 05:13 PM
So I guess the only appropriate thing to do at this point, Terez, is to write a theory which you can't fully support with evidence. :D

Rand al'Fain
04-30-2011, 05:44 PM
Being a DF army is not necessarily the same as being an army of DFs.
The former can be achieved by planting a few DF officers, and having those officers who are too resistant to the Shadow have "training accidents". The latter could very easily be arranged by letting some of Taim's pupils have "assassination training".
The latter would be a lot more difficult, and probably not cost efficient to the Shadow.
My problem with training accidents in this case is that, considering that Bashere did a lot of the training him self (probably along with his officers as well) is that he never once mentioned training accidents, and if they had been in involved with deaths, considering that the Legion is pretty much only armed with either crossbows (you aim down a range and hit targets) or shields, training "accidents" are not very likely. Plus, I get the feeling that the officers were made officers in the first place by Bashere, all things considered.

PS - My guess is that Bashere is going to show up more or less alone to order them to the battle, and that he's going to get offed along with whoever might have been unlucky enough to accompany him.

But I too have a feeling that Bashere my get killed, and may be the "grizzled wolf" or whatever the prophecy was that would cause many to weep. It may be at Caemlyn, but I would not be surprised if he went down at some point.

You don't have to have an army full of Darkfriends to get them to attack non-Darkfriends. Non-Darkfriends have all sorts of reasons for going to war against each other, and some key Darkfriend officers can take advantage of that fact. I don't believe for a second that all of the men with Weiramon in the pass were Darkfriends, but somehow he got away with not doing what he was supposed to be doing anyway.The custom in Tear was that the High Lords led, actually, that tends to be the custom in many countries. Competant or not, the high ranking nobles were generally obeyed with few questions asked.

And the Legion seems to be pretty good at following orders.They're soldiers trained by Borderlanders, so one would hope that they were good at taking orders.

I suspect the Murandians are being rallied mostly against the Andorans, their only real rivals. And of course, the Andorans don't even take them seriously, which pisses them off even more.They might be, but as has been alluded to throughout the books, the Murandians only seem to band together when under threat of being invaded.

[And so we get people like Elaida and Fain.Okay. Elaida was a power hungry tyrant, and Fain/Mordeth/whoever he is now is something different. Not a DF, or even a hound of the DO, but a different kind of evil, but an evil nonetheless.

The mercenaries...they maybe could be tied back to Elayne's drama with the mercenaries during the Succession.I thought it was said in the book that they were latecomers and had found that the siege was over already? Not to mention Elayne didn't want them to go, but wanted to use them for the LB. Yes, they could cause problems, some might even be DF oriented, but it just seems that mercenaries everywhere are flocking towards different established powers, for one reason or another.

They felt under-appreciated, and it was mentioned how mercenaries have a sort of honor code between them which includes not attacking retreating men. Roedran might have hired them all with fake gold. Or real gold. Along with tales of Elayne's horrible mistreatment of mercenaries.
I thought the mercs still loyal to Elayne were still working for her? And that the others, arrived late to the battle but had no other place to go to.
The attacking part might have made the merc bands that were there first peeved, but it doesn't look like that the new ones have much interaction other than brawling with eachother from time to time.
And who knows what Roedran is doing. Last we heard about him, he was trying to actually unify Murandy. Whether that involves sending a few mercs North to disrupt Andor or not has not really been addressed.

Jonai
04-30-2011, 08:22 PM
The "Legion of the Dragon" fighting for the Shadow is so tragically ironic that I almost want it to happen. The sad truth is, the Legion could fight for the Shadow even if every single one is a "lightfriend." All they need is a littly savvy misdirection and misdirection, after all, who are the good guys, really? Oh we know, or think we know, but do the characters? Mat and the Band haven't been in general contact with other pro Rand forces for seven books now. Bashere oversaw them, at least up through the assault on Illian, but I doubt there has been any mention of Mat or the Band. Assume for a second Terez's theory of Bashere appearing and getting offed is fulfilled. All you need is Taim or some of his cronies in camp to do the killing and then some false orders to be issued. Bashere was already using Asha'man as message runners previously. If the legion delayed Talmanes (and later Mat) long enough for Demandred to crush all resistance inside the city, then they will have done their jobs well.

"Dangerous fools, but useful dupes at times"

Rand al'Fain
04-30-2011, 08:52 PM
The "Legion of the Dragon" fighting for the Shadow is so tragically ironic that I almost want it to happen. The sad truth is, the Legion could fight for the Shadow even if every single one is a "lightfriend." All they need is a littly savvy misdirection and misdirection, after all, who are the good guys, really? Oh we know, or think we know, but do the characters? Mat and the Band haven't been in general contact with other pro Rand forces for seven books now. Bashere oversaw them, at least up through the assault on Illian, but I doubt there has been any mention of Mat or the Band. Assume for a second Terez's theory of Bashere appearing and getting offed is fulfilled. All you need is Taim or some of his cronies in camp to do the killing and then some false orders to be issued. Bashere was already using Asha'man as message runners previously. If the legion delayed Talmanes (and later Mat) long enough for Demandred to crush all resistance inside the city, then they will have done their jobs well.

"Dangerous fools, but useful dupes at times"
If (and that's a BIG if) that happens, then so be it. But right now, other than the ones already outside of the dreamspike at the Black Tower, all the Asha'men are pretty much stuck there. The ones outside are either gaurding other cities, engaged in combat, or acting as escorts for various pro-Rand groups. Plus there is the matter of how many of the Legion are currently even sitting outside of Caemlyn. Depending on the number, they could be slaughtered by the Band, or put up a decent fight. Way too many variables to really get into it to much there.

Weiramon
05-01-2011, 02:20 AM
Let's not dredge up old theories, wild speculation in fact, about who supposedly alleged what to possibly whom.

Rather, let's focus on the matter at hand - Lord Bashere has clearly attempted to raise a force to undermine the Lord Dragon. Best that Bashere be executed immediately, and command of the Legion assigned to the nearest capable general who is loyal to the Lord Dragon. Lord Taim is just outside Caemlyn, and no doubt is already familiar with the senior officers of the Legion. Certainly many men will despair, discovering the depth of that wily Bashere's treachery and the necessity of his demise, but the Wheel weaves as the Wheel will.

Failing that, the focus of your discussions should continue to be on attacking each other about theories and opinions rather than seeking evidence to support baseless accusations against those loyal to the Lord Dragon.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2011, 03:50 AM
Let's not dredge up old theories, wild speculation in fact, about who supposedly alleged what to possibly whom.

Rather, let's focus on the matter at hand - Lord Bashere has clearly attempted to raise a force to undermine the Lord Dragon. Best that Bashere be executed immediately, and command of the Legion assigned to the nearest capable general who is loyal to the Lord Dragon. Lord Taim is just outside Caemlyn, and no doubt is already familiar with the senior officers of the Legion. Certainly many men will despair, discovering the depth of that wily Bashere's treachery and the necessity of his demise, but the Wheel weaves as the Wheel will.

Failing that, the focus of your discussions should continue to be on attacking each other about theories and opinions rather than seeking evidence to support baseless accusations against those loyal to the Lord Dragon.
Didn't Rand tell you to leave?

Terez
05-01-2011, 04:44 AM
Back to Callandor's point about Bertome Saighan...I think it's within the realm of possibility that he was recruited. If he was a Darkfriend at the point of TPOD, it would seem odd for him to be out of the loop. He's always been ambitious and untrustworthy, so allegiance to the Dark is not necessary to explain his actions in TOM, but it's a possibility to be considered. I'd say Verin figured out Weiramon and Anaiyella either because she had had dealings with them specifically or because they were more obvious about it than others. I really, really doubt they were the only high nobility in Rand's entourage to be Darkfriends. (Even considering that others like Ingtar, Toram Riatin, and Barthanes have already been outed and killed.)

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2011, 05:18 AM
My problem with training accidents in this case is that, considering that Bashere did a lot of the training him self (probably along with his officers as well) is that he never once mentioned training accidents, and if they had been in involved with deaths, considering that the Legion is pretty much only armed with either crossbows (you aim down a range and hit targets) or shields, training "accidents" are not very likely. Plus, I get the feeling that the officers were made officers in the first place by Bashere, all things considered.But the 'accident' could be a simulation of a bubble of evil, for instance. If suddenly all weapons started flying through the air, and butchered the officers and those soldiers who tried too hard to help them, that would look strange. But with all that's happening, it would not look suspicious. And it is definitely something half a dozen or so Asha'man could manage.

Or the accident could be something that looked like a strange and sudden sickness. Think of the way in which Lord Vader stifled dissent by using the One Power (or Force, or whatever you wanna call it) to throttle a dissenter. Without someone as flamboyant as that Sith Lord, it could look as if the officer is simply choking to death on his food. Unfortunate, but such things happen.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2011, 12:12 PM
But the 'accident' could be a simulation of a bubble of evil, for instance. If suddenly all weapons started flying through the air, and butchered the officers and those soldiers who tried too hard to help them, that would look strange. But with all that's happening, it would not look suspicious. And it is definitely something half a dozen or so Asha'man could manage.My issue is that other than the ones stationed in various cities, all the Asha'men that are outside the Black Tower are loyal to Rand.

Or the accident could be something that looked like a strange and sudden sickness. Think of the way in which Lord Vader stifled dissent by using the One Power (or Force, or whatever you wanna call it) to throttle a dissenter. Without someone as flamboyant as that Sith Lord, it could look as if the officer is simply choking to death on his food. Unfortunate, but such things happen.
Bubbles of evil though, have always been random in who the victims were. To single out all of the officers and maybe a few others who helped them would be a dead give away in the first place. Not to mention that the Asha'men would need to see who they were attacking and thus would have to be in the middle of the camp. And depedning on the size, they could be spotted immediatly for not being members even if they wore disguises.

GonzoTheGreat
05-01-2011, 12:55 PM
My issue is that other than the ones stationed in various cities, all the Asha'men that are outside the Black Tower are loyal to Rand.Doesn't mean Taim can't send out Asha'man on special missions, does it?
I mean, he did it when he gave the ones assigned to Rand orders to kill him.

Bubbles of evil though, have always been random in who the victims were.Except of course for the one which attacked Rand, Mat and Perrin only, and no others.
And more or less the one with the snakes that had a preference for channelers, though others could be bitten too.
And ...

Point is: unless everyone does have accurate statistics and thus can spot such an anomaly, it could easily be shrugged off even if it were anomalous. Those bubbles are very random, and now and then something like "attack only officers" would be a definite possibility.

To single out all of the officers and maybe a few others who helped them would be a dead give away in the first place. Not to mention that the Asha'men would need to see who they were attacking and thus would have to be in the middle of the camp. And depedning on the size, they could be spotted immediatly for not being members even if they wore disguises.The camp contains thousands of men, some of whom are very new. The Asha'man could simply march past (out of time, barely maintaining formation) as a group of new recruits, do their work and disappear again.

The only real danger would be that one of them would be recognised by someone who had been recruited at the same time, and who recognised him as a BT inmate*.

* Perhaps not quite the right word. Then again, it'll do.

Rand al'Fain
05-01-2011, 03:20 PM
Doesn't mean Taim can't send out Asha'man on special missions, does it?
I mean, he did it when he gave the ones assigned to Rand orders to kill him.Considering there is now a dreamspike around the Black Tower now, the Asha'men aren't going anywhere for awhile.

Except of course for the one which attacked Rand, Mat and Perrin only, and no others.
And more or less the one with the snakes that had a preference for channelers, though others could be bitten too.
And ...Considering who Rand, Mat, and Perrin are, no real surprise. Plus Perrin's axe tried to kill Faile, the cards where facing away from the nobles, and Rand had shoved Berelain out of the room.

And snakes are hardly a bubble of evil. I think that was more of the pattern forcing Perrin to stay there because he needed to ally with Galad. Note how by the time the Asha'man were better, it was a bit to late to withdraw (and by that time, the dreamspike was in the area anyways).

Point is: unless everyone does have accurate statistics and thus can spot such an anomaly, it could easily be shrugged off even if it were anomalous. Those bubbles are very random, and now and then something like "attack only officers" would be a definite possibility.
But nothing like that has happened yet. Like the bubble of evil that hit the rebel Aes Sedai camp. It was indesriminate with it's victims.

The camp contains thousands of men, some of whom are very new. The Asha'man could simply march past (out of time, barely maintaining formation) as a group of new recruits, do their work and disappear again.The problem is, as I said before, we have no clue as to how many men are in that camp. And even so, considering the Legion's uniqueness, I would assume that most, if not everyone knows whos who in the camp. Plus, there is always the chance that the Asha'man could be recognized by the Legion, as everyman in the Legion had gone there for at least a short time.

The only real danger would be that one of them would be recognised by someone who had been recruited at the same time, and who recognised him as a BT inmate*.They didn't do testing where they were recruited, they did the testing back at the Black Tower.

* Perhaps not quite the right word. Then again, it'll do.
Maybe intiate is the word your looking for?

Weiramon
05-02-2011, 03:18 AM
I'd say Verin figured out Weiramon and Anaiyella either because she had had dealings with them specifically or because they were more obvious about it than others.

It’s clear that the Lord Dragon has been led astray by that Verin Sedai.

No doubt she sought to sow discord and confusion among his followers. Burn me, with a simple missive she could merely have claimed knowledge that an unknown High Lord had turned to the Shadow. Why else line them all up, if a specific accusation had been made?

That Black Sister probably dreamed of a gathering of those sworn to the Shadow, and imagined seeing through one of the disguises the garb of a High Lord.

Terez
05-02-2011, 04:46 AM
Oh, Rand definitely has his own means of rooting out Darkfriends, but it's clear he was tipped off by Verin. It's not as simple as 'Rand looks at you and knows you're a Darkfriend' but if he stares you down, you can't hide.

You should just go back to being happy he let you go. ;)

Weiramon
05-02-2011, 02:42 PM
The Lord Dragon is under tremendous pressures, and it is understandable that mistakes are made, especially when relying on a the word of a Black Sister. Why, she could probably claim a white rain cape is green and not even blink.

Of course, there were others close to the Lord Dragon that have been exiled. Bloodied, in one case.

FelixPax
05-02-2011, 08:26 PM
I really, really doubt they were the only high nobility in Rand's entourage to be Darkfriends. (Even considering that others like Ingtar, Toram Riatin, and Barthanes have already been outed and killed.)

Some other High Nobility Darkfriends females?


Alaine Chuliandred (Cairhien)
Fionnda Annariz (Tear)
Belevaere Osiellin (Cairhien)


The Sun Palace in Cairhien, is last place each of these women were known to be located at.


Breane on Alaine, Belevaere:

“Are these two spiders trying to toil you in their webs?” The older woman laughed. “Half the time they tangle themselves more firmly than anyone else. Come with me, my fine young Andoran, and I will tell you some of the troubles they would give you. For one thing, I have no husband to worry about. Husbands always make trouble.”


The Great Hunt - Chapter 32 "Dangerous Words" - Rand al'Thor point of view

Who's symbol is a spider among the Chosen?

Moghedien.

Kimon
05-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Some other High Nobility Darkfriends females?


Alaine Chuliandred (Cairhien)
Fionnda Annariz (Tear)
Belevaere Osiellin (Cairhien)


The Sun Palace in Cairhien, is last place each of these women were known to be located at.


Breane on Alaine, Belevaere:



Who's symbol is a spider among the Chosen?

Moghedien.

Sylvase would seem a likely candidate.

FelixPax
05-03-2011, 07:27 AM
Sylvase would seem a likely candidate.

Agreed, Sylvase is an excellent candidate indeed. :D


Jarid Sarand (Andoran Noble) is also excellent candidate. However his wife Elenia Sarand a High Noble in her own right, is not a candidate.

Elenia like others--Arymilla, Naean, Elegar, Nasin--has been manipulated by a combination of Jarid, Sylvase among others. Yes, multiple Chosen were involved at different points too: Rahvin, Moghedien, Ishamael, Mesaana


Halwin Norry is not a Noble, however he is another good candidate for being a high level darkfriend. Same for the "Holder of Keys" in the Sun Palace of Cairhien.

Weiramon
05-04-2011, 02:55 AM
Best to execute this Norry fellow immediately. While no evidence has been presented for his guilt, he is, as noted, not a Noble. No harm would be done.

But these accusations against the Lady Sylvase are disturbing and should cease.

Charlz Guybon
08-18-2011, 10:25 PM
The problem I have with this is that if the Legion of the Dragon is controlled by darkfriends and assualts the city while Trollocs are still coming out of the Ways then I don't see how half the Band of the Red Hand and whatever Guard units that were left could hope to win, even with Mat in charge and with all the mercenary bands coming to their aid. They would simply be far too out numbered, attacked from multiple directions and unable to rapidly reposition their limited assets due to the Dream Spike.

It seems unlikely that Caemlyn will be razed to ground given Aviendha's vision of the future, so something must happen to turn the tide in time.

Terez
08-19-2011, 01:12 AM
The problem I have with this is that if the Legion of the Dragon is controlled by darkfriends and assualts the city while Trollocs are still coming out of the Ways then I don't see how half the Band of the Red Hand and whatever Guard units that were left could hope to win, even with Mat in charge and with all the mercenary bands coming to their aid.
Dragons. ;) Also, I suspect some channelers will be involved. It's likely to get messy.

Enigma
08-19-2011, 06:02 AM
What's to stop one of the Kin traveling north to Elayne who conveniently enought hasa very very big pool of soldiers around her and who can be brought back to the city very quickly with Traveling. The Dreamspike is blocking the BT traveling but its a bit away from the city. It should be out of the range of the dreamspike.

Terez
08-19-2011, 06:03 AM
The range is adjustable. It could have been adjusted the moment before the Shadowspawn began to pour out of the Waygate.

Charlz Guybon
08-19-2011, 06:18 AM
What's to stop one of the Kin traveling north to Elayne who conveniently enought hasa very very big pool of soldiers around her and who can be brought back to the city very quickly with Traveling. The Dreamspike is blocking the BT traveling but its a bit away from the city. It should be out of the range of the dreamspike.

The BT is only a couple of leagues away, that's just 8 miles. At full power it should cover the city IIRC.

Juan
08-19-2011, 08:55 AM
So... Can you just adjust range of dream spike to cover entire world?

And can you use the gate thing egwene used to "travel" from waste by going into TAR in the flesh while there's a dreamspike?

Enigma
08-19-2011, 11:42 AM
I doubt if one can cover the entire world. If it could the Shadow would set us up and give the key to the forsaken and any other darkfriends they didn't mind travelling.

At the moment the forces of the light are highly dependant on gateways both to move armies around and they are also used for supplies.

As for moving about like going into TAR in the flesh its possible but I doubt it. The dreamspike seems to stop any form of gateway opening and you need a gateway to get into TAR in the flesh.

JOS
08-19-2011, 11:57 AM
As for moving about like going into TAR in the flesh its possible but I doubt it. The dreamspike seems to stop any form of gateway opening and you need a gateway to get into TAR in the flesh.

The gateways to TAR are different from normal ones, maybe enough that they could work in the dome? Probably not though.

The dreamspike also seems to inhibit your "shifting" or "jumping" ability in TAR, slowing travel. Also, one spooked soldier could throw the entire army into a living nightmare.

That would stink:

"Highness, we lost 20,000 soldiers to imaginary shadowspawn during the march."

"Mother's milk in a cup! Those weak minded fools!"