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Nei
04-28-2011, 03:25 AM
So, I'm up to Winter's Heart in my own personal re-read. Rand et al are now in Far Madding.

Sarene describes the FM ter'angreal(s) Guardian as something that 'duplicates a stedding.' We also later learn that it also has a triangulation system that allows the Council to detect and locate channellers within the city. Quite possibly this is because its creators were taking into account the possibility of channellers with 'well' ter'angreal like Nynaeve and Cadsuane. Kumira explains that this triangulation system also distinguishes between male and female channellers.

A little while later, Verin notices that 'a man just channelled'. We know that this is Narishma, (although RJ at one point claimed it was Flinn) sent by Merise in order for Cadsuane to unsettle the Council.

The question here is this: How does this all add up?

In the stedding, you can neither touch nor feel the True Source. Yet the Guardian detected Narishma. Why? How?


a) Is it possible that Cadsuane's Well is not saidin/saidar specific and Narishma had been using it? It seems unlikely that she'd allow anyone to borrow a single piece for any sort of errand.

b) The Guardian isn't really like a Stedding but more like Mat's silver foxhead and it's not that you can't channel but you are unable to manifest the results.

Judging by the events in TGS (where Rand threatens to curbstomp Far Madding and the Borderlanders with fire from outside), we might speculate that the Guardian already holds a similarity with the foxhead in that the weaves may not touch an individual within the field, but externally formed and completed weaves might, such as fire and lightning.

c) The creation of a 'stedding' type field is really nothing more than an illusion. All the ter'angreal does is mask the presence of the Source from people, creating the belief that they are unable to touch the Source when in fact, they can.

This might explain how people actually discover a girl can channel in Far Madding. If the effect was truly like a Stedding, she may never be able to touch the Source for her entire life, never knowing it existed.

I'm willing to imagine that a Far Madding girl (like Cadsuane herself and Verin) who does not herself go to the Tower to become a novice, is a wilder/one who has the spark. She is previously unaware of the Source and does not have the preconceived idea that she is being denied of something she cannot consciously identify.

In other words, there's nothing to stop her from accidentally touching the Source. Wilders often have blocks that prevent them from realising what they are doing so the moment she unconsciously channels, the alarm system goes off.

d) Sarene speculates that there may be 3 ter'angreal. Perhaps she just picked an arbitrary number. Who knows. But maybe it's a combination of points b+c.

The encyclopaedia wot claims that there are 3 ter'angreal that create 3 zones in the following order of size (from smallest to largest) female -> male -> early warning system detection. But I'm not so sure if this is information from interviews with RJ or what, because I saw no such mention in the actual passage.

I do think the ter'angreal might be one male specific shielder, one female specific shielder and then the last ter'angreal is a detection system, but I don't think it extends beyond the available zones.

Supposedly Narishma/Flinn had been left behind to channel within the outermost zone but that seems incredibly silly to me.

To start with, can you imagine the number of false alarms the Council must have, if every country wilder happened to be travelling somewhere channels within the zone?

Secondly, if it were in fact Flinn and not Narishma left in the supposed outer zone to channel. He was left more than a mile from the city without his horse. Just to do a little hocus pocus and walk all the way to the city. By himself.

Why do something as silly as that? Merise could always have said that she had sent her Warder on an errand (nobody would have to know Narishma was Asha'man) and that he would join them later. Why take his horse and leave him outside the city?

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2011, 03:37 AM
The detection range is wider than the interdiction range.
So it is not possible (say) to channel within 3 miles distance, but can channel when you are 4 miles away from it. But whenever you channel anywhere within 5 miles distance that is detected.
The Guardian can show whether it is a male or a female who is channeling. Or, more likely: whether saidin or saidar is being channeled. Which raises the interesting question: how about male-female links?

What happened was not precisely what the Far Maddingers thought was happening.

What they thought:
1. A man channeled outside the 'forbidden' zone, but within detection range.
2. A woman (Cadsuane) channeled within the hall itself, where that should have been entirely impossible.
3. A man then channeled there too, saying that it was easy once you knew the trick.

What actually happened:
1. A man channeled outside the 'forbidden' zone, but within detection range.
2. A woman (Cadsuane, using her well) channeled within the hall itself, where that should have been entirely impossible. All the FMers turned to her, appalled and frightened at this 'impossible' thing happening.
3. Cadsuane then channeled again, still using her well. Flinn said that it was easy once you knew the trick, making the FMers think that it had been him who did it.

Terez
04-28-2011, 06:56 AM
Nynaeve was also detected by the Guardian, for channeling within the forbidden zone (that's why the Guards showed up on Blue Carp Street). But since the Guardian is quite different from a stedding, I don't see any problem with that.

Kimon
04-28-2011, 07:24 PM
I did a quick search of the interview database of the steddings, and couldn't find any reference, as a question just popped into my mind. Would it be possible to channel in a stedding if you had a well, just as Cadsuane did in Far Madding? You obviously can't sense the source in a stedding, but then apparently the same is true (hence the loss of the sun comment) of Far Madding, but can you bring a piece of the "sun" with you into a stedding and use it, or would you still be unable to form a weave?

Terez
04-28-2011, 08:30 PM
I did a quick search of the interview database of the steddings, and couldn't find any reference, as a question just popped into my mind. Would it be possible to channel in a stedding if you had a well, just as Cadsuane did in Far Madding? You obviously can't sense the source in a stedding, but then apparently the same is true (hence the loss of the sun comment) of Far Madding, but can you bring a piece of the "sun" with you into a stedding and use it, or would you still be unable to form a weave?
One thing that is interesting is that RJ said you cannot channel the True Power in a stedding either, which is another important difference between a stedding and Far Madding (assuming Rand was correct that he could use the True Power there, and he was probably right since the Guardian seems designed to specifically and separately deal with saidar and saidin).

I think that the stedding simply repel the Power because they are a part of a different universe, and there are slightly different laws of nature there, hence that feeling of contentment and peace that everyone gets inside one. The Guardian seems to imitate that in the same way that technology typically tends to imitate nature - that is, what the Aes Sedai consider the 'most important' attributes of a stedding are more or less duplicated, but there are some missing nuances.

So, that being said, I'm not sure a Well would work inside a stedding. My previous inclination was to assume that it would, but now that I've thought about it, the evidence seems stacked against it.

enak101
04-29-2011, 05:45 AM
Yeah I would like to know if a well would work in a stedding. The steddings are a part of the wheel of time universe, and the wheel of time universe has the one power so i don't get your different universe statement.

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 06:51 AM
Yeah I would like to know if a well would work in a stedding. The steddings are a part of the wheel of time universe, and the wheel of time universe has the one power so i don't get your different universe statement.

Within the broader "world" of the Wheel of Time there are mirror worlds such as Rand and company visited in TGH, and also parallel universes, other creations of the Creator if you will, such as the place the Aelfinn and Eelfinn inhabit. The first kind are your traditional different choice worlds though none are the "real" pattern, and might be what you better understand as parallel universes. The second are other universes entirely, where the rules of physics are different (among other things) and using things that exist in the main universe, such as the One Power, can have unintended consequences, or no consequences at all.

What Terez is suggesting is that the Ogier are visitors from one of these other universes, who use the Book of Translation to travel between worlds. Accordingly, the Stedding where they live are in fact parts of their home universe that they bring with them.

I know that there are RJ quotes to back up the first part of this as well. No doubt Terez will be able to provide something to back up the second part, although when I think about it, it seems to me that it's also possible the Stedding are parts of our world altered to be more like the Ogier's home universe, rather than actual bits of universe they brought over.

Terez
04-29-2011, 07:08 AM
It seems to me more likely that they brought the stedding with them because it's less complicated that way. If they knew how to alter part of the real world to match their own, then obviously the knowledge was lost, but why would they spread themselves out over the whole world like that?

Also worth noting is that the stedding are attached to the land, which is why they all bunched up in the mountains during the Breaking.

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 07:58 AM
It seems to me more likely that they brought the stedding with them because it's less complicated that way. If they knew how to alter part of the real world to match their own, then obviously the knowledge was lost, but why would they spread themselves out over the whole world like that?

Also worth noting is that the stedding are attached to the land, which is why they all bunched up in the mountains during the Breaking.

It seems simpler to me to assume they altered the world than brought bits of universe with them. We have seen that the Ogier have the ability to communicate with nature in a way, so perhaps it is a trait that was lost, and with it came the longing. On the other hand, it could be an alteration that comes about because of the use of the Book of Translation, as a direct consequence. It is said that the Stedding make the Ogier, not the other way around, so perhaps using the Book causes Stedding to appear in the world, and from there the Ogier come.

Moving entire bits of other universes around seems like something that would require a lot of power (small "p") and be very complex to do. On the other hand, altering part of an existing universe to match your own and allow you or people like you to appear in that universe is slightly simpler. We know that One Power users are able to alter the world in certain ways (for example the creation of "similarity" to make a Saidar gateway), and the Ogier do have some characteristics which are similar to One Power users (the seeing of ta'veren, for instance), although clearly I'm not suggesting they are using the Power, just that such effects are possible.

You would make them spread about a bit because at the time it's the Age of Legends and you want to have homes to interact with the natives throughout the world. Then when the Breaking happens, as you say, they end up in the mountains, quite possibly because the male Aes Sedai were hiding in them themselves for a while, and went mad whilst still in the proximity of them, causing huge changes to the land around the Stedding.

Terez
04-29-2011, 09:40 AM
Seeing as how we have no evidence that the Ogier know how to alter the world aside from using the Book itself, the Occam's Razor still suggest they brought bits of their universe with them. The idea that they can just somehow magically alter the land around them so that the Power doesn't even seem to exist there just stretches credulity. We know why the stedding ended up in the mountains - the mountains are a result of the Breaking itself, and the land was compressed to make them.

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 09:47 AM
Seeing as how we have no evidence that the Ogier know how to alter the world aside from using the Book itself, the Occam's Razor still suggest they brought bits of their universe with them. The idea that they can just somehow magically alter the land around them so that the Power doesn't even seem to exist there just stretches credulity. We know why the stedding ended up in the mountains - the mountains are a result of the Breaking itself, and the land was compressed to make them.

I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with your attempt to use Occam's Razor. I think what we're both suggesting is a very complex explanation for a phenomenon about the cause of which we have no, or very little, evidence. For the reasons I stated above I disagree that your explanation of bringing parts of the world from one universe to another is simpler. That would, it seems to me, require far more effort and complexity than simply altering the existing universe.

In addition, I disagree that there isn't any evidence of the Ogier being able to alter the world: I would suggest that both sung wood and the ability the Ogier have as masons are evidence of the Ogier having more than usual powers to interact with and alter the world, or at least bits of it. The creation of Stedding could be the result of a similar effect.

I expect, however, that the Stedding are created somehow by the Book of Translation as part of the transmigration process. There may even be a clue in the name: to translate is to change something from one language into another. Perhaps the Book of Translation changes the "language" of the world to match that of the Ogier's universe, hence why the Stedding are the same but different.

Terez
04-29-2011, 10:04 AM
I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with your attempt to use Occam's Razor. I think what we're both suggesting is a very complex explanation for a phenomenon about the cause of which we have no, or very little, evidence.
The difference is that we know the Book of Translation contains the power - either as a magical object or a book of instruction - to transfer the Ogier, at least, to another world. In fact, Jenn's updated FAQ article (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/145) on the subject mentions that mathematically 'translation' means that you move every point on a geometric figure the same distance in the same direction. That seems to imply that the stedding themselves were moved, not just the Ogier. Or at least, the evidence is clearly in favor of it. We could argue about it all day but that doesn't change the fact.

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 10:26 AM
The difference is that we know the Book of Translation contains the power - either as a magical object or a book of instruction - to transfer the Ogier, at least, to another world. In fact, Jenn's updated FAQ article (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/145) on the subject mentions that mathematically 'translation' means that you move every point on a geometric figure the same distance in the same direction. That seems to imply that the stedding themselves were moved, not just the Ogier. Or at least, the evidence is clearly in favor of it. We could argue about it all day but that doesn't change the fact.

Please don't mistake an opinion for a fact. I don't think you have stated anything which is a hard and fast fact. There are multiple meanings of the word "translation" (oh, the irony), including the mathematical one you've mentioned above, but also the linguistic one, of converting something from one language into another. I'd suggest the second meaning is more widely known (without for a second suggesting by this that RJ was unaware of the second definition), and that if RJ wanted to hint at something by using the word "translation", it would be a better "clue" if it pointed towards the second one.

That's hardly conclusive, but we're really not in possession of much better facts than those. We have next to nothing on the Book of Translation, what it is, what it does, how it's used. For all we know opening the book could be the beginning of a long and involved process of travelling to other worlds, i.e. the instructions to build the huge machine are all written in the Old Tongue so we need to translate them into Common first....

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 10:48 AM
In addition, I'd ask: if the stedding are part of another universe that gets moved about, what happens when they go? We know that the stedding are physically part of the world, so is there just an enormous crater, with all the plants, animals, any unfortunate children who happen to wander in, etc, disappearing off to Ogier-World? In fact, I'd suggest that stedding probably function in the manner it was suggested by the Romans ownership of land did, that they extend as far as the heavens above and down to the centre of the Earth. That would obviously cause enormous problems if they are entire bits of another universe that get ripped out when the "Translation" happens.

Normal plants and creatures that exist within the world live in the stedding as well. The only unique feature is the Ogier. This all seems to suggest to me that rather than being entire bits of another universe, they are parts of the regular universe, altered to resemble that other universe.

Toss the dice
04-29-2011, 03:46 PM
I have to agree with Zombie Sammael on this one.

We have zero evidence for either side, whether the Ogier transported the stedding whole, along with them or transformed and cultivated them here. All we know about the Book of Translation is that it can transport the Ogier themselves.

Personally, I would find it more credible to believe the Ogier transformed the land once here. They can sing to trees right? They've been here a hell of a long time, all the way back to the Age of Legends and who knows how further back and/or deep into the AoL they go. If you want to use Occam's Razor, I would say that is a much better fit for the transformation, rather than transporting entire steddings with them from their home universe.

To me, it really could go either way, and we don't have any conclusive evidence, or anything even CLOSE to conclusive evidence, for either side. Without that evidence, stating your opinion as fact doesn't get you anywhere Terez, regardless of how strongly you believe you're right. Unsure if we will get any more information concerning this issue in AMoL.

PS I would love it if you call me an idiot Terez. That always turns me on. :)

Kimon
04-29-2011, 03:58 PM
Please don't mistake an opinion for a fact. I don't think you have stated anything which is a hard and fast fact. There are multiple meanings of the word "translation" (oh, the irony), including the mathematical one you've mentioned above, but also the linguistic one, of converting something from one language into another. I'd suggest the second meaning is more widely known (without for a second suggesting by this that RJ was unaware of the second definition), and that if RJ wanted to hint at something by using the word "translation", it would be a better "clue" if it pointed towards the second one.

That's hardly conclusive, but we're really not in possession of much better facts than those. We have next to nothing on the Book of Translation, what it is, what it does, how it's used. For all we know opening the book could be the beginning of a long and involved process of travelling to other worlds, i.e. the instructions to build the huge machine are all written in the Old Tongue so we need to translate them into Common first....

Translation doesn't have to apply to language, it's just that that is the most common usage we have applied to the Latin word "translatio". But the Latin word itself comes from the Latin verb transfero (transfero, transferre, transtuli, translatum)- which just means to carry or bring across. While both your and Terez' suggestions could be possible, the main problem with your suggestion is that if they were altering this world to make it like their original world, rather than having brought parts of their world with them, then that must have been knowledge that they lost before the breaking, as they were unable to alter new parts of the land after the breaking to create new steddings. We know that that has to be the case, as they made the Ogier groves to remind them of the steddings, but they were imperfect versions that while aesthetically pleasing, were useless when it comes to overcoming the Longing. We also know that the steddings repopulated after the Breaking were found, not created, as we know of stedding that they found, but did not repopulate- such as the unpopulated stedding that Hawkwing had intended to make his capital. Concerning Terez' point on the frequency of stedding in the mountains, I'm not really sure that we can assume that most of the steddings are really in the mountains, only that these were the ones that they chose to repopulate, because these were the ones that tended to be far from the population centers of men. We do know however that the Ogier can alter the landscape to make it more peaceful - Loial did this with the remains of Someshta, to preserve and protect his gravesite against the encroaching of the Blight. But he did not turn this into a new stedding. The question of the "translation" remains however, but Terez' assumption that at one time this transference brought not just the Ogier here, but also likely a piece of their homeland with them, seems reasonable.

Too bad however that nothing illuminating apparently could be gleamed about the possible use of a well in a stedding. If such was possible, it might have potentially cleared up (if she had a well, which to be honest, there is not reason to believe that she did) another oddity surrounding Verin...

Zombie Sammael
04-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Kimon, I'm aware of the etymology of the word. What I was trying to get it is when you're trying to hint at the purpose of something by giving it an obscure name, if you want anyone to clock, you use the most commonly understood meaning of the words you choose. I think I actually stated that pretty well when I first brought it up. I understand the mathematical or geometrical meaning of the word.

What I'm getting at with my theory is that I think the world is altered by whatever consequences come from opening the Book of Translation. With that in mind, the Ogier wouldn't necessarily have the "talent" themselves to alter the world. I suggest a sequence of events, thus:

1. The Ogier open/use the Book of Translation in their own world (or any other world, for that matter).

2. Unclear, possibly a selection process of some sort - the act of "Translation" for which the book is named.

3. The target world is altered in some fashion, or parts of it are. Stedding are created.

4. The Ogier come to live in the stedding.

5. The Breaking of the World; the stedding are lost.

6. The Ogier find the stedding again.

7. Rinse and repeat.

The stedding are able to become lost within the target world during the Breaking because they are part of that world; they aren't an ethereal "effect" that is consistent to wherever they are initially placed, regardless of movements around them, nor are they tel'aran'rhiod. This might not make any difference vis a vis Terez' argument and mine but I felt it was important to note.

The thing about the disagreement here is it's essentially about what happens when the Book of Translation is used. The only way it can be settled is a direct question to Sanderson, or by the book being used in AMOL. If after it is used large chunks of the land simply vanish, I'll gladly accept Terez' theory. If they don't but the stedding effect stops happening, then that's more ambiguous. It really depends on what Terez actually thinks the stedding are, by which I mean are they the physical area which they occupy, or are they the effect of losing the One Power whilst inside of them? If it's the latter then I think there is really very little difference between our arguments.

Regarding Verin and wells, in this case I think you can use Occam's Razor to arrive at some manner of conclusion: Verin appears to channel whilst inside a stedding, which is thought to be impossible. Wells of the One Power allow one to use the One Power in situations where it is otherwise impossible, such as under a dampening field. Either Verin has mastered the art of stedding channeling (perhaps she's from another universe?) or there is some other explanation; the simplest explanation is that she had a well, and that wells function withing stedding.

Put another way, I really can't think of another application for a well prior to the Breaking of the World. Possibly it could be used to channel whilst shielded; in fact, this might explain the term "True Source": all other sources, wells, are false sources which can be drained; the True Source cannot. However, barring the idea that all wells were made during the War of the Power as insurance against people shielding one another, the other application for them would be to use them when journeying inside a stedding. The Far Madding ter'angreal was made during the Breaking, so it's not like those were abundant and would provide a good reason for making wells. Of course, the largest well we know of was the Eye of the World, but that was made for another, much more specific, purpose, in order to be free of tainted Saidin.

I wonder whether, if you filled a well with tainted Saidin, the taint would also be within the well? Presumably so, since the Eye had to be cleansed once it was made. Would the taint corrupt the ter'angreal itself?

I should have chosen the Brown....

Kimon
04-29-2011, 06:32 PM
Zombie, if that is the case, and the Book of Translation can be used, not merely to transfer them to a new world, but to make a stedding in that new world, then why wouldn't they have simply opened the Book of Translation and ditched this world during the Breaking, when as a consequence of the Longing they were beginning to die. Now it's quite possible that the Book can be used to transfer land along with them, so that they can take their steddings with them to their new land of refuge, but if it could physically manifest new stedding within a new world, would it not have been a massive oversight to have not used the Book to create a stedding in their time of need. Does it not make more sense that using the Book at that time would have been pointless, as that new world would not have had stedding, simply because they had not found a stedding here to take with them to that new land?

Marie Curie 7
04-29-2011, 06:41 PM
Please don't mistake an opinion for a fact. I don't think you have stated anything which is a hard and fast fact. There are multiple meanings of the word "translation" (oh, the irony), including the mathematical one you've mentioned above, but also the linguistic one, of converting something from one language into another. I'd suggest the second meaning is more widely known (without for a second suggesting by this that RJ was unaware of the second definition), and that if RJ wanted to hint at something by using the word "translation", it would be a better "clue" if it pointed towards the second one.

RJ had a degree in physics, and the use of the term "translation" to refer to moving an object from one place to another is quite common in the discipline.

RJ did give a hint about the nature of stedding on the KOD tour, though of course nothing definite:

Knife of Dreams book tour, Half Moon Bay, CA 27 October 2005 - caychris reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/sreply/201210/t/frenzy-.html)

As he was signing my books I asked him about if the stedding were natural. He looked puzzled for a second and answered "yes ... in a way." Then asked if I had expected a less cryptic answer. To which I said, No.

That quote doesn't answer the question of the nature of stedding directly, but perhaps RJ answered the way he did because stedding are natural, just natural to the Ogier world.



Too bad however that nothing illuminating apparently could be gleamed about the possible use of a well in a stedding. If such was possible, it might have potentially cleared up (if she had a well, which to be honest, there is not reason to believe that she did) another oddity surrounding Verin...

There is nothing to clear up in this regard. RJ said that it is possible to detect a missing soul without the need for channeling:

Winter's Heart book tour 12 November 2000 - Ryan R. reporting (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_frm/thread/8540c5b79d3aa45/95779d96b86a7f15?lnk=gst&q=signing#95779d96b86a7f15)

I asked Jordan if you need to channel to detect loss of soul, and he said no, it was obvious from touch. So Verin doesn't have a Well, or at least didn't use it.

nameless
04-29-2011, 07:16 PM
There's way too much that we don't know about stedding to accurately speculate about how they came to be. Does the Source not exist inside them? Or maybe it does exist but there is some unkown interdicting factor that prevents people from sensing it? Or maybe there's no such factor at all, the Source continues to exist as normal, and the stedding is only acting on the humans by removing their ability to sense or touch it, rather than acting on the fabric of reality itself? The last one seems the least likely, as other non-human-related supernatural phenomenon are also disrupted by steddings, but there really isn't enough to rule any of them out.

I do agree that the "translation" in Book of Translation likely refers to the mathematical definition, based on the fact that what the book does is translate the Ogier from one reality into another. The mathematic definition fits this function better than the linguistic definition.

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2011, 03:29 AM
From the interview database:
On the Ogier origin he answered "Read and Find Out".Of course, this was from 1995, so it may not be up to date anymore, but lacking an explicit description where the Ogier originated, I would say that we do not have enough information to say one way or another.

Zombie Sammael
04-30-2011, 04:38 AM
Zombie, if that is the case, and the Book of Translation can be used, not merely to transfer them to a new world, but to make a stedding in that new world, then why wouldn't they have simply opened the Book of Translation and ditched this world during the Breaking, when as a consequence of the Longing they were beginning to die. Now it's quite possible that the Book can be used to transfer land along with them, so that they can take their steddings with them to their new land of refuge, but if it could physically manifest new stedding within a new world, would it not have been a massive oversight to have not used the Book to create a stedding in their time of need. Does it not make more sense that using the Book at that time would have been pointless, as that new world would not have had stedding, simply because they had not found a stedding here to take with them to that new land?


I expect it wasn't used during The Breaking either because it itself was lost, or because the Ogier would have to be in the stedding to use it. Remember, I'm not suggesting that the stedding are entirely part of the main universe themselves; they have been explicitly altered to resemble the Ogier universe. It may be that the use of the Book of Translation, like the Ogier themselves, is dependent on those conditions.

I also don't suggest that the creation of a stedding is something separate from travel universe to universe; in fact, I think it's probably a necessary condition that you leave the universe if you want to make stedding somewhere else. Since the Ogier presumably all have to go, it would appear some sort of majority agreement or consensus is needed before using the Book. This would have been impossible to acquire during the Breaking, so there are in fact many good reasons why it would not be used during the Breaking.

With regard to the word "translation" we're essentially getting into semantics at this stage.
"Translation" could mean the Ogier are moved in a geometrical sense and then the world they arrive in is "translated" into the language of their universe, making a stedding. RJ could have meant all, neither, or simply picked and chose his definitions as he went along. I don't think it helps resolve this debate that he had a physics degree and might have been using a specialist definition of the word, since there's not any way of knowing, short of asking or reading it in a book, which he actually did mean.

I still maintain that the idea that whole tracts of land will get ripped out of the world when the Book is used is ridiculous. It's far more likely that whatever effect makes those areas like the Ogier universe, and thus stedding, will go, along with the Ogier.

Terez
04-30-2011, 07:07 AM
I don't think anyone suggested the land itself was going to disappear with the Ogier. Just the physics of their universe that define the stedding.

Marie Curie 7
04-30-2011, 09:54 AM
From the interview database:

On the Ogier origin he answered "Read and Find Out".

Of course, this was from 1995, so it may not be up to date anymore, but lacking an explicit description where the Ogier originated, I would say that we do not have enough information to say one way or another.

From a 2009 MAFO:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Maria clarifies: I had to look it up to make sure that I had which one was which correct. The 'finn worlds are parallel worlds, the Ogier world is a parallel world. The place that Lanfear, Rand, Loial and Hurin went to was a Mirror World, as were all of the ones in the Portal Stone incident.

This was not in the Ogier category of the database for some reason, only the Workings of the Wheel category (probably because the MAFOs were added after the original report). It's fixed now.

Zombie Sammael
04-30-2011, 07:21 PM
I don't think anyone suggested the land itself was going to disappear with the Ogier. Just the physics of their universe that define the stedding.

If that is the case then we essentially agree. If it's the physics of their universe that come along with them then it's the same as if our universe was altered.

enak101
04-30-2011, 08:52 PM
Wow, I am confused. Since when are Ogier aliens? I thought err...

Lol this is crazy. On book 5 on first re read when do we hear about book of translation?

So Ogier are from another world. They used the book to either transport land where the power doesnt exist into a world where it does. Or they can remove the power from parts of the land. First option seems better. How long has it been since the ogier have come to this world? When are they going to leave?

Terez
04-30-2011, 09:14 PM
The Book of Translation is first mentioned in KOD.

enak101
05-01-2011, 02:38 AM
Thanks I was reading a bit more of the Ogier makes more sense now.

Terez
05-01-2011, 03:53 AM
I'm not really sure that we can assume that most of the steddings are really in the mountains, only that these were the ones that they chose to repopulate, because these were the ones that tended to be far from the population centers of men.
I meant to reply to this earlier. The idea comes from Elder Haman:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 20 - From the Stedding

It was an education for Rand, beginning with seven stedding scattered through the Borderlands. But then, Trollocs feared to enter a stedding, and even Myrddraal needed some great purpose to drive them into one. The Spine of the World, the Dragonwall, held thirteen, including one in Kinslayer’s Dagger, from Stedding Shangtai in the south to Stedding Qichen and Stedding Sanshen in the north, only a few miles apart.

"The land truly changed in the Breaking of the World," Haman explained when Rand commented. He continued marking briskly, though; briskly for an Ogier. "Dry land became sea and sea dry land, but the land folded as well. Sometimes what was far apart became close together, and what was close, far. Though of course, no one can say whether Qichen and Sanshen were far apart at all."
I don't get the idea that abandoned stedding are incredibly common, but maybe I am wrong.

Kimon
05-01-2011, 10:13 AM
I meant to reply to this earlier. The idea comes from Elder Haman:


I don't get the idea that abandoned stedding are incredibly common, but maybe I am wrong.

I didn't mean to imply abandoned, only that there existed some (at least one of which we know of- Hawkwing's) that were located, but not reclaimed and settled.

Here's the quote that I was thinking of when I commented on this.

LoC Ch 20:
"I know of one you didn't mark," Rand said. Perrin had told him of sheltering in it once. He pulled out a map of Andor east of the River Arinelle and touched a spot well above the road from Caemlyn to Whitebridge. It was close enough.

Haman grimaced, almost a snarl. "Where Hawkwing's city was to be. That was never reclaimed. Several stedding were found and never reclaimed. We try to stay away from the lands of men as much as possible". All of the marks were in rugged mountains, in places men found hard to enter, or in a few cases just far from any human habitation.


Just for the sake of thoroughness, though it wasn't what I had been trying to allude to, the same page, just a few paragraphs up, does mention abandoned stedding.

Sadder was the list of stedding abandoned, given up because the numbers had grown too few. The Spine of the World and the Mountains of Mist and the Shadow Coast were in that list too, and so was a stedding deep on Almoth Plain, near a forest called the Paerish Swar, and one in the low mountains along the north of Toman Head, facing the Aryth Ocean.

Terez
05-01-2011, 03:19 PM
Yeah, I had the Paerish Swar one in mind because that's where Ituralde was hanging out in TGS when Rand came to get him IIRC. It's probably a combination of both things, then.