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greatwolf
05-02-2011, 12:39 PM
I came across this passage in my current reread and I realized I still don't know why Mordeth screamed you're dead here.


Rage twisted Mordeth's face, and fear, too. His lips pulled back from his teeth. "Tar Valon!" He shook clenched fists at them. "Tar Valon! You said you were going to this ... this ... Caemlyn! You lied to me!"
"If you still want," Perrin said to Mordeth, "we'll come back tomorrow and help you." Carefully he set the axe back on the heap of gem-encrusted chalices and jewelry. "If you want."
"No. That is ..." Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. "Take what you want. Except... Except..."
Suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only ... He was so shocked he said it out loud. "You don't have a shadow."
A goblet fell from Mat's hand with a crash.
Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opened all the way. His sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. "So." He stood straighter, seeming taller. "It is decided." Abruptly there was no seeming to it. Like a balloon Mordeth swelled, distorted, head pressed against the ceiling, shoulders butting the walls, filling the end of the room, cutting off escape. Hollow-cheeked, teeth bared in a rictus snarl, he reached out with hands big enough to engulf a man's head.
With a yell Rand leaped back. His feet tangled in a gold chain, and he crashed to the floor, the wind knocked out of him. Struggling for breath, he struggled at the same time for his sword, fighting his cloak, which had become wrapped around the hilt. The yells of his friends filled the room, and the clash of gold platters and goblets clattering across the floor. Suddenly an agonized scream shivered in Rand's ears.
Almost sobbing, he managed to inhale at last, just as he got the sword out of its sheath. Cautiously, he got to his feet, wondering which of his friends had given that scream. Perrin looked back at him wide-eyed from across the room, crouched and holding his axe back as if about to chop down a tree. Mat peered around the side of a treasure pile, clutching a dagger snatched from the trove.
Something moved in the deepest part of the shadows left by the torches, and they all jumped. It was Mordeth, clutching his knees to his chest and huddled as deep into the furthest corner as he could get.
"He tricked us," Mat panted. "It was some kind of trick."
Mordeth threw back his head and wailed; dust sifted down as the walls trembled. "You are all dead!" he cried. "All dead!" And he leaped up, diving across the room.
Rand's jaw dropped, and he almost dropped the sword as well. As Mordeth dove through the air, he stretched out and thinned, like a tendril of smoke. As thin as a finger he struck a crack in the wall tiles and vanished into it. A last cry hung in the room as he vanished, fading slowly away after he was gone.
"You are all dead!"

Why did he think that? I have a few ideas though nothing very concrete. First all three are tavaren. Maybe that put Mordeth off but I just cant see why tavareness would make him react like that. Besides, tavaren can be turned to the shadow, why not to Mordeth's type of evil. Not very credible but taveren is all that the boys have in common that I can see.


Option two is the thought that the three were already linked to the shadow somehow. Ishy had been in their dreams and could have left some insurance for himself. But that still won't account for the death part and it falls flat when one considers that Fain was tightly linked to the shadow and was still taken by Mordeth.


Option three is that it was LT's soul in all three boys. This would make for a rather sweet theory. It could explain why Ishamael couldn't tell LT's soul was Rand if all three had some of it. It would also explain why all three are taveren and linked to boot.

Mordeth might actually consider LT's soul that of a dead man. But the biggest flaw here is how? Rand can have LT's soul but how would Perrin and Mat end up with it? Not very likely but tantalizing.


Option four would be memories. Rand has LT's memories, Mat has the memories of several dead men, some of whom may have live in Mordeth's time and Perrin might have the memories of dead wolves.

I don't see any major objection to this, but there are plenty of minor hurdles to cross. Like did Perrin really have dead wolves memories at that point? Did Rand? And to name him dead because he has memories of other wolves?

Its the best I could come up with for now. It would be nice if someone could come up with something better or even a previous discussion that could solve this little riddle.

So what do you guys think?

Crispin's Crispian
05-02-2011, 01:11 PM
Maybe he just meant that, once he knew they weren't going to help him get out, he would let Mashadar kill them. More of a threat...but a good one because Mashadar is pretty hard to escape.

Zombie Sammael
05-02-2011, 02:44 PM
I thought it was just a threat. As in, "You disagreed with Terez... you're dead!" *jk*

greatwolf
05-02-2011, 03:14 PM
lol.

Maybe he just meant that, once he knew they weren't going to help him get out, he would let Mashadar kill them. More of a threat...but a good one because Mashadar is pretty hard to escape.


really hard to beleive he'd threaten them. What on earth for? and the way he screamed, at least it seems he was the one, doesn't quite support that notion. Is there anything that could back that beyond our assumption?

Crispin's Crispian
05-02-2011, 06:39 PM
lol.




really hard to beleive he'd threaten them. What on earth for? and the way he screamed, at least it seems he was the one, doesn't quite support that notion. Is there anything that could back that beyond our assumption?

He screamed because Mat took the dagger, is my guess, or because he was crazy and realized he wasn't going to get what he wanted from them.

I don't see much more than a threat of death from Mashadar...certainly not some strange metaphysical awareness of their past lives or something. There's really nothing at all to back that up.

greatwolf
05-03-2011, 03:23 PM
He screamed because Mat took the dagger, is my guess

why? He did ask them to take whatever they wanted.


I don't see much more than a threat of death from Mashadar...certainly not some strange metaphysical awareness of their past lives or something. There's really nothing at all to back that up

I think we'll definitely have to accept metaphysical when it comes to Mordeth and his abilities. Or how do we explain his giant man trick? Mask of mirrors?

Crispin's Crispian
05-03-2011, 03:52 PM
why? He did ask them to take whatever they wanted.

That's why he said, "Except... Except..." Except the dagger, which Mat immediately grabbed.



I think we'll definitely have to accept metaphysical when it comes to Mordeth and his abilities. Or how do we explain his giant man trick? Mask of mirrors?
He's a ghost? Sure, you can accept something metaphysical, but there is zero evidence that he had any metaphysical awareness of the boys pasts, futures, souls, or memories.

greatwolf
05-03-2011, 06:41 PM
That's why he said, "Except... Except..." Except the dagger, which Mat immediately grabbed.


You know you're making this up don't you? :)


He's a ghost? Sure, you can accept something metaphysical, but there is zero evidence that he had any metaphysical awareness of the boys pasts, futures, souls, or memories.

Except telling them they're dead?

Crispin's Crispian
05-03-2011, 06:49 PM
You know you're making this up don't you? :)


Rage twisted Mordeth's face, and fear, too. His lips pulled back from his teeth. "Tar Valon!" He shook clenched fists at them. "Tar Valon! You said you were going to this ... this ... Caemlyn! You lied to me!"
"If you still want," Perrin said to Mordeth, "we'll come back tomorrow and help you." Carefully he set the axe back on the heap of gem-encrusted chalices and jewelry. "If you want."
"No. That is ..." Panting, Mordeth shook his head as if he could not decide. "Take what you want. Except... Except..."

I'm not making anything up. What makes the most sense to me is to assume he was excepting the dagger from the "take what you want" part. That nicely explains why he popped and screamed--he saw Mat pick it up and there wasn't a damn thing he could do. It also explains why Fain was so obsessed with it.



Except telling them they're dead?
So you're saying that the fact that they are dead allowed Mordeth to tell them they are dead. That's how you know that they are actually dead, hence this thread? Solid reasoning, there. :rolleyes:

ChubbyAiel
05-04-2011, 11:52 AM
I see this as a threat or at least a prediction that they will die in Shadar Logoth.

I don't agree with "dead memory" hypothesis because as you say, Perrin wouldn't have had any memories of dead wolves then, and Mat didn't get his memories for some time either, although he does yell something in the Old Tongue at one point early on.

I don't agree with the soul of LTT being a possibility either. We can be fairly sure that the soul was not divided up, and that Rand alone is the reincarnation of LTT. If Mordeth was referring to the fact that any of them was the reincarnation of LTT, his words, "You are dead" would be true of everyone in the world of the Wheel, since every single person has been born and reborn many times. So they would all have been "dead men" in that sense, just not dead LTTs.

I also thought that Mordeth wanted them to take anything, including the dagger, so he would be able to escape the boundary of Shadar Logoth. Doesn't Moiraine ask the lads, "Did he give you anything?" and Mat dodges the question by justifying it later along the lines of, "I took it; he didn't give it to me."

So I see it as a threat because the lads decided they weren't going to do his will, or a prediction because he thought the mist would get them. At that stage, Mordeth wouldn't have known if Mat was going to put the dagger back down or take it with him. Maybe Mat snatching up the dagger was the very thing that made Mordeth leave them alone and shrink back down because he hoped Mat would take the dagger. Maybe he thought he would be able to escape Shadar Logoth and therefore everyone would be dead? Just a thought.

I think the real question is what is this "Except... except" business, because as far as I can tell he should have been happy with them taking anything.

greatwolf
05-04-2011, 01:06 PM
I'm not making anything up. What makes the most sense to me is to assume he was excepting the dagger from the "take what you want" part. That nicely explains why he popped and screamed--he saw Mat pick it up and there wasn't a damn thing he could do. It also explains why Fain was so obsessed with it.


Firstly, Mat didn't have the dagger when he made the statement

"You don't have a shadow."
A goblet fell from Mat's hand with a crash.
Mordeth nodded,


And he picked the dagger after the scream


Cautiously, he got to his feet, wondering which of his friends had given that scream. Perrin looked back at him wide-eyed from across the room, crouched and holding his axe back as if about to chop down a tree. Mat peered around the side of a treasure pile, clutching a dagger snatched from the trove.
Something moved in the deepest part of the shadows left by the torches, and they all jumped. It was Mordeth, clutching his knees to his chest and huddled as deep into the furthest corner as he could get.


So you're saying that the fact that they are dead allowed Mordeth to tell them they are dead. That's how you know that they are actually dead, hence this thread? Solid reasoning, there. :rolleyes:


Actually I gave several options as to what might have occured. Its all in the initial post. I trust I don't need to repost it? :D

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2011, 01:13 PM
There is, of course, the possibility that a couple of centuries of solitary confinement has somewhat unhinged Mordeth.
In other words: he was stark raving bonkers, with occasional spells of relative sanity. Just as Padan Fain is in the rest of the series, though without the Shadow-induced hatred for the three ta'veren, at least at this stage.

greatwolf
05-04-2011, 02:13 PM
A valid point but can he be described as sane at any point in time since he came in contact with mashadar's evil?


I think the real question is what is this "Except... except" business, because as far as I can tell he should have been happy with them taking anything.

I've given up on ever finding out the why of that one.

Crispin's Crispian
05-04-2011, 03:06 PM
.

Firstly, Mat didn't have the dagger when he made the statement


And he picked the dagger after the scream
Nothing in the quote indicates that. Mat didn't have the dagger before Mordeth expanded, but he did after. It is theoretical on my part that he screamed and popped because Mat picked up the dagger while Mordeth was expanding.

Actually I gave several options as to what might have occured. Its all in the initial post. I trust I don't need to repost it? :D

I trusted you to interpret sarcasm, but that was trust misplaced. I was pointing out your circular reasoning, which said that, since Mordeth said they are all dead, it must mean that he had some metaphysical senses about the boys. That's how he was able to know that they were all dead.

As a matter of fact, we have a significant amount of evidence suggesting the boys were not dead at that time.

greatwolf
05-04-2011, 11:50 PM
As a matter of fact, we have a significant amount of evidence suggesting the boys were not dead at that time.


We do? :p

They're dead but not. That's how we got here in the first place. I'll fix the meter.

FelixPax
05-05-2011, 01:41 AM
I came across this passage in my current reread and I realized I still don't know why Mordeth screamed you're dead here.

...

So what do you guys think?

I think all three of the Ta'veren boys will DIE. Mordeth is telling the truth here.


Mat once was killed by Rahvin's lightning, then returned to life once again.

Rand, I predict will kill himself to 'save' the world from Trollocs, Chosen, Darkfriend in the so-called 'Last Battle' of the 3rd-4th Age transition. He likely will return to life, when Nynaeve's Dreams him alive--just as she will for Lan.

Perrin, I predict will die in AMoL book. However, details of Perrin's death are more vague to me, at this point of view.

Perrin once ask Gaul to take Faile away, if he couldn't protect her from death...


How would likely Mordeth know of these boys future?

Tower of Ghenjei.

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 02:40 AM
I think all three of the Ta'veren boys will DIE. Mordeth is telling the truth here.


Will?

"You are all dead!" he cried. "All dead!"

Isn't there a difference between will and are?

ChubbyAiel
05-05-2011, 03:32 AM
Isn't there a difference between will and are?

True, but the phrase, "You are dead" is an idiom that is usually meant as a threat or a prediction. If you were in a rage with someone and you told them, "You are a dead man" you wouldn't be literally claiming they are already dead.

I don't believe Mordeth was offering a long-term prediction that all the boys would eventually end up dead as suggested by FelixPax. I think it is either a threat, a short-term prediction based on the belief that Mashadar would get them, or possibly the hope that Mat's dagger would help him escape.

Rand al'Fain
05-05-2011, 03:54 AM
Well, given enough time, they all eventually will die, some just a LOT longer than others.

Daekyras
05-05-2011, 11:05 AM
Perrin, I predict will die in AMoL book. However, details of Perrin's death are more vague to me, at this point of view.


Did you mean point of time here or actually point of view?

I'm not asking to be a snark(I know english isn't your first language) I'm just genuinely interested...

Crispin's Crispian
05-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Will?



Isn't there a difference between will and are?

Why are you so convinced that Mordeth meant the boys were actually dead at that moment?

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 03:10 PM
Because that's what he said dammit! :)

Even Mat displayed "metaphysical" insight with the dagger and he'd only had it less than a month. Why should you be so shocked at Mordeth saying something like that?

Crispin's Crispian
05-05-2011, 06:07 PM
Because that's what he said dammit! :)

Even Mat displayed "metaphysical" insight with the dagger and he'd only had it less than a month. Why should you be so shocked at Mordeth saying something like that?

I'm not shocked at all. It's exactly the kind of threat I would expect.

Crispin's Crispian
05-05-2011, 06:23 PM
Nothing in the quote indicates that. Mat didn't have the dagger before Mordeth expanded, but he did after. It is theoretical on my part that he screamed and popped because Mat picked up the dagger while Mordeth was expanding.
In keeping with my unusually honest personality, I give you this:

Now that Shadar Logoth is gone, (cool way to get rid of it by the way), has the evil power in Padan Fain/Mordeth/the Ruby Dagger decreased any? Has it driven him even more insane? Or since the next book is called the Knife of Dreams, will all these questions be answered in it?

Robert Jordan Answers: ...(By the way, any other artifacts that might be lying around from Shadar Logoth would have the same long-term corrupting effect as the dagger. Fortunately, or unfortunately, any such thing would need to be metal or stone. The wood and fabric had decayed. It wouldn't have been pleasant to get a splinter from, say, a chair from Shadar Logoth.)
So, there's no evidence to suggest Mordeth gave a crap about the dagger. That said, RJ's quote doesn't directly negate that, it only negates the idea that the dagger is especially corrupted. :p

Zombie Sammael
05-05-2011, 07:15 PM
It's obviously just a threat. I can scarcely believe that Felix-style over-reading has made it to two pages.*

*without Felix himself showing up to argue one his bizarre theories, that is:p

Terez
05-05-2011, 09:51 PM
The way I read the passage, Mordeth was deliberating because it's not often that visitors come to Shadar Logoth, and he really wanted a soul to steal. But he didn't want to get caught up with an Aes Sedai either. So he went into a little rage about it. Dude is crazy. He might have actually tried to take one of their souls and failed, maybe because he can't do it except at the edge of the city? Dunno. From what Brandon has said it seems that all of this is spelled out in the notes, but I'm not sure if we have enough clues to figure out what was going on there.

finnssss
05-05-2011, 10:38 PM
Until I did my first re-read, I always had in my mind that Rand did something with the power in his moment of panic without knowing it.
It was just an impression I had on my first reading.

After a few re-reads I started leaning towards Mat giving him a poke with the Dagger, like he popped the balloon so to speak.
From Rand's PoV we know that he obviously has no clue what happened, Perrin doesn't appear to be much better, preparing to fend off something.
But Mat, he has the dagger in hand and is by far the most calm of the three and doesn't seem to be preparing to defend himself like the other two.
In fact, he seems to be assuming a much more aggressive posture and how does he know it was a trick?

I mean there's very little in the scene to give us a firm idea of exactly what happened but that's the impression I have when reading it.

Mat poked him, spoiled the "trick" and realises it right away.

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 11:31 PM
True, but the phrase, "You are dead" is an idiom that is usually meant as a threat or a prediction. If you were in a rage with someone and you told them, "You are a dead man" you wouldn't be literally claiming they are already dead.


"You are dead" is quite different from "You are all dead" which Mordeth uses. I've heard the former being used as a threat countless times, even in the plural sense, but not once have I ever heard the latter as a threat. And there's just no basis for it. And given his cognitive powers, I really find it difficult to see anyone giving this so much credit.



Mat poked him, spoiled the "trick" and realises it right away


We've seen Fain use illusion in a somewhat similar manner, so what happened may have been Mordeth trying to frighten them while he grabbed a soul.

Terez
05-06-2011, 12:22 AM
'You're dead' is used as a threat quite commonly. Rand said it about Fain, funnily enough.

"He ravaged my home because it was my home." Rand’s face was frozen, his voice ice. "He brought Trollocs to kill my friends because they were my friends. He is a Darkfriend, and a dead man." Those last words came through clenched teeth. Punch splashed to the carpet as the silver goblet bent in his gloved fist.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 01:14 AM
What I said.

ChubbyAiel
05-06-2011, 05:12 AM
"You are dead" is quite different from "You are all dead" which Mordeth uses. I've heard the former being used as a threat countless times, even in the plural sense, but not once have I ever heard the latter as a threat. And there's just no basis for it.

Is it that different? If I was threatening one person I might say, "You are dead". If I was threatening multiple people I might again say, "You are dead" or I might say "You are all dead" as a way of making sure they knew I was threatening all of them, not just the one I was looking at while I spoke.

It seems to me a perfectly normal choice of words, just an elaboration on a standard threat. So I would say there is a basis. Looks like another case of you and me fundamentally disagreeing and not being able to convince each other, greatwolf :)

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 09:15 AM
yep, its like convincing a brick wall isn't it:p

Its painfully obvious you're not going to add to the topic though. Come to think of it, have you ever added to anything I said?:(

ChubbyAiel
05-06-2011, 09:39 AM
Its painfully obvious you're not going to add to the topic though. Come to think of it, have you ever added to anything I said?:(

That would be because I'm never trying to add to anything you've said. I'm usually arguing the exact opposite. :D

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2011, 10:11 AM
That would be because I'm never trying to add to anything you've said. I'm usually arguing the exact opposite. :DThat'd be, like, you know, detracting then, like? Well, apart from the fact that you do not always oppose me. So sometimes it could someone else who is detracting.

Zombie Sammael
05-06-2011, 02:03 PM
Who's dead? No-one is. It was just a threat. Why are we still discussing this?

FelixPax
05-06-2011, 07:45 PM
'You're dead' is used as a threat quite commonly. Rand said it about Fain, funnily enough.

Chuckles, of course Rand should see Fain dead soon enough.

Though Fain should stab Mierin at least once, before Rand kills Fain himself.

Moon's got to "bleed", to fulfill Fourth Age writings. Mierin never did desire Rand to keep that Red Ruby Dagger (TGH book)... the very weapon which shall harm Mierin in AMoL book(prediction).

FelixPax
05-06-2011, 07:47 PM
Did you mean point of time here or actually point of view?

I'm not asking to be a snark(I know english isn't your first language) I'm just genuinely interested...

Smart Ass.

finnssss
05-06-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't think Rand will be the one to kill Fain.

I think it will be Perrin, he deserves to be the one to do it after all, it would be justice for the killing of his entire family.
At the same time it will be in the course of saving Rand, being there for him the second time.

Rand al'Fain
05-06-2011, 08:24 PM
Plus, it was Mat that had the dagger. Rand stuffed the thing into the chest to keep the taint form everyone else until he could get it to Mat again.

FelixPax
05-06-2011, 08:38 PM
I don't think Rand will be the one to kill Fain.

Where is Fain heading to now, as of the ending of ToM book?

Where Rand al'Thor is going to go.
Who does Fain desire to kill? Rand al'Thor.

Fain doesn't really care about Perrin at all. It's Rand, Fain wants. Why? Because that's who Moridin wants, badly.

In Fain's mind, killing Rand is a strike against the Dark One & Moridin. To deny either of them, their heart's desire.

finnssss
05-06-2011, 09:57 PM
Where is Fain heading to now, as of the ending of ToM book?

Where Rand al'Thor is going to go.
Who does Fain desire to kill? Rand al'Thor.

Fain doesn't really care about Perrin at all. It's Rand, Fain wants. Why? Because that's who Moridin wants, badly.

In Fain's mind, killing Rand is a strike against the Dark One & Moridin. To deny either of them, their heart's desire.

I realise that and I'm not arguing in the slightest against Fain going after Rand but what I said, and this is the important part you seemed to have missed, was that Perrin will kill Fain WHILE saving Rand.

It would be justice for Perrin and fulfill Min's viewing of him having to be there for Rand the second time.


There's only two options left for Fain imo.
Either he is going to be used by Rand in some way to kill or seal away the DO
OR
Fain goes after Rand and Perrin intervenes.

Those are the only two options that make sense to me at this point.