View Full Version : Baalzamon

05-03-2011, 04:21 AM
I was just wondering

We find out later that Baalzamon wasn't really the dark one but Ishmael.

But when Perrin is in TAR and there is that meeting the way Lanfear and him talk it's like he is. Did the other forsaken not know it was Ishmael?

05-03-2011, 04:41 AM
They knew that Ishamael had been posing as the DO, and that he used the name Ba'alzamon when doing so.
But it may be that in some cases when someone encountered Ba'alzamon, it really was the DO himself.

05-03-2011, 12:03 PM
But when Perrin is in TAR and there is that meeting the way Lanfear and him talk it's like he is. Did the other forsaken not know it was Ishmael?

It seems plausible that the forsaken knew it was Ishamael, and also knew he was 1) batshit crazy, 2) the most powerful of them, and 3) occasionally under the impression that he was the DO. They'd kind of have to go along to get along, especially since Ishamael was the one with the large darkfriend networks and influence in modern-day Randland.

That, or it could be another case of early-bookism. Perhaps Ishamael being something of an avatar was intended to be a plot point earlier on, instead of something that just comes up in AMoL (now the trilogy).

05-03-2011, 12:19 PM
In which chapter of which book does this take place, exactly?
I've done a scan of the first 6 books, and the only scene which comes close does not support the OP at all. There Lanfear makes it very clear that she does not consider Ishamael who is posing as Ba'alzamon her superior.

05-03-2011, 05:22 PM
I was pretty sure it was book 2. Perrin and hoopper saw it in TAR.

05-04-2011, 04:40 AM
I think that you're thinking of the following scene from book 3:
For a moment Ba'alzamon stood alone, then suddenly there was a woman with him, clad all in white and silver.
Shock hit Perrin. He could never forget a woman so beautiful. She was the woman from his dream, the one who had urged him to glory.
An ornate silver throne appeared behind her, and she sat, carefully arranging her silken skirts. "You make free use of my domain," she said.
"Your domain?" Ba'alzamon said. "You claim it yours, then? Do you no longer serve the Great Lord of the Dark?" The darkness around him thickened for an instant, seemed to boil.
"I serve," she said quickly. "I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine."
"What is yours," Ba'alzamon said. The blackness swirling 'round him seemed mirthful. "You always thought yourself greater than you were, Lanfear."
The name cut at Perrin like a newly honed knife. One of the Forsaken had been in his dreams. Moiraine had been right. Some of them were free.
The woman in white was on her feet, the throne gone. "I am as great as I am. What have your plans come to? Three thousand years and more of whispering in ears and pulling the strings of throned puppets like an Aes Sedai!" Her voice invested the name with all scorn. "Three thousand years, and yet Lews Therin walks the world again, and these Aes Sedai all but have him leashed. Can you control him? Can you turn him? He was mine before ever that straw-haired chit Ilyena saw him! He will be mine again!"
"Do you serve yourself now, Lanfear?" Ba'alzamon's voice was soft, but flame raged continuously in his eyes and mouth. "Have you abandoned your oaths to the Great Lord of the Dark?" For an instant the darkness nearly obliterated him, only the glowing fires showing through. "They are not so easily broken as the oaths to the Light you forsook, proclaiming your new master in the very Hall of the Servants. Your master claims you forever, Lanfear. Will you serve, or do you choose an eternity of pain, of endless dying without release?"
"I serve." Despite her words, she stood tall and defiant. "I serve the Great Lord of the Dark and none other. Forever!"But there it seems very clear to me that Lanfear knows that it is Ishamael who she is speaking to.

05-04-2011, 05:37 PM
Yes it does thanks. I guess I was pretty much wrong haha. The flaming eyes didnt help Rand and the boys tell the difference :P.