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View Full Version : tDR - how did Moraine found out Forsaken identities ?


Xevus
05-05-2011, 03:16 AM
I've recently started to re-read the series, and i must say it's really cool experience being able to see all those foreshadow moments :)

Anyway, here is the thing i couldn't figure out - how did Moiraine found that that Lord Brend is Sammael and High Lord Samon is Be'lal ? We know that she can sense Darkfriends that are deeply in the Shadow, so we can assume she can also sense Forsaken (although she obviously missed Lanfear several times).

But how did she found out who they are ??? Not like she knew their faces. Or did she ?

greatwolf
05-05-2011, 04:18 AM
One possibility is her trick with the blue stone. It seems she was able to eavesdrop on Rand and Asmo without being detected. Maybe she pulled the same on the forsaken.

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2011, 04:56 AM
I don't think she would have dared try to use the OP in their neighbourhood at that time in the story. She seemed to think it possible that they would detect any OP use at all, and while her trick is good, it is not entirely perfect.

But it may be that she knew some DF recognition signs, and that she could use that to get information from the side of the Shadow.

Xevus
05-05-2011, 05:53 AM
Yeah, she didn't dared to Delve Failie because she was afraid of Forsaken sensing that. And Delving uses very small amount of Power, although probably more than her trick.

Weird Harold
05-05-2011, 11:41 AM
... how did Moiraine found that that Lord Brend is Sammael and High Lord Samon is Be'lal ? ...

But how did she found out who they are ??? Not like she knew their faces. Or did she ?

Between tEoTW and TDR, Moiraine wandered off to do extensive research. Some things like Sammael's facial scar would surely have been mentioned. Between interviewing her local "Eyes and Ears," the Blue Ajah E&Es, and the descriptions of the Forsaken she would have found in her research, it isn't totally nreasonable she could have identified Sammael and Be'lal by their identifying traits.

she can sense Darkfriends that are deeply in the Shadow, so we can assume she can also sense Forsaken (although she obviously missed Lanfear several times).

nameless
05-05-2011, 01:14 PM
Right, and since she was at the Eye when Aginor and Balthamal broke free, she knew the others wouldn't be far behind. IIRC we were told explicitly that some of the books she borrowed from Vandene and Adeleas focused on the Forsaken.

Terez
05-05-2011, 04:47 PM
I don't discount eavesdropping because she was, after all, discovered. That's why they had to leave.

Lightning
05-06-2011, 01:28 AM
I dont think that that should be reasoned out. If I remember correctly at that point in the books we know very little of how the power actually works and (to me) the way Moirain just went off on a black ops mission that only she could handel was meant to be all mysterious and intriguing. It's RJs way of creating coolness and kick ass qualities for her.

In reality however she could have just gone and talked to some informers or looked at physical traits or some other mundane thing like that. Although I don't see how any of that is particularly dangerous and would require leaving Lan behind.

I highly doubt that she eavesdropped though because 1) there would have been wards against eavesdropping in place (we know at least that Sammael put extensive wardings all over the city and in the palace especially) and 2) even if she managed to get in the palace and within striking distance of lord Brend (which is highly unlikely since he would have seen her) in just a matter of a few hours the possibility that she would overhear anything particularly important or revealing is quite slim.

greatwolf
05-06-2011, 09:06 PM
I highly doubt that she eavesdropped though because 1) there would have been wards against eavesdropping in place (we know at least that Sammael put extensive wardings all over the city and in the palace especially) and 2) even if she managed to get in the palace and within striking distance of lord Brend (which is highly unlikely since he would have seen her) in just a matter of a few hours the possibility that she would overhear anything particularly important or revealing is quite slim.


Did he have wards in place at that time? And also, do we have any confirmation of how Moiraine eavesdrops with the stone? We know it isn't everything that can be detected especially you're not holding a ward against snooping.

Weird Harold
05-06-2011, 11:53 PM
...do we have any confirmation of how Moiraine eavesdrops with the stone? ...

IIRC, one of the supergirls (Nyneave?) uses Moiriane's(?) eavesdropping trick trying to snoop on the Hall's meeting with Tarna Fier in Salidar. It struck me as the OP equivalent of bouncing a laser off a window glass to read the vibrations.

greatwolf
05-07-2011, 12:39 AM
IIRC, one of the supergirls (Nyneave?) uses Moiriane's(?) eavesdropping trick trying to snoop on the Hall's meeting with Tarna Fier in Salidar. It struck me as the OP equivalent of bouncing a laser off a window glass to read the vibrations.


Nynaeve learnt from Moghedien, a very reluctant teacher. But the weaves may not necessarily be the same. If she uses a weave at all. Perhaps there may also be instances of some of the forsaken snooping on other channelers undetected?

Enigma
05-07-2011, 09:22 AM
Moiraine had a serious heads up after TEotW. She knew that at least some of the forsaken were out and that the rest would be comming. Nearly everyone else had the forsaken pegged as history but Moiraine knew to consider them if wierd things showed up.

Next as WH said she went off to do some research with the two sisters. Then she ends up in Illian and then Tear and everyone is having strange dreams. She knows that this is a common effect of a strong channeler not shielding their dreams. This is something no AS would do and most Wilders are not strong enough to do it either. So that leaves the forsaken.

Most of the people remember their dreams and what the forsaken looked like. Then its not too hard for her to put a name to the face.

I am not sure if I could see Moiraine going on a spying mission to eavesdrop on the two forsaken. Its not that she is a coward, Moiraine has shown that she is brave enough but at that point she viewed the forsaken as like demigods. Getting close to one would be very high risk and if they catch her they have a lead to Rand and then its game over. That seems a bit too reckless for Moiraine.

Vestis
05-07-2011, 07:42 PM
I don't discount eavesdropping because she was, after all, discovered. That's why they had to leave.

I always assumed they were discovered because of Lan.

TDR 44 - Hunted

"I have no time for this bickering," Moiraine broke in. "Any moment Lord Brend may learn that one of his Darkhounds is dead. You an be sure he will know that means a Warder, and he will come looking for the Gaidin's Aes Sedi."

It could just be her dancing around the truth, but I still took it that Lan was at fault for the discovery by killing a darkhound not because she got caught snooping.

Ozymandias
05-07-2011, 08:17 PM
Well that particular quotation brings up certain questions; i.e. how would Sammael know what a Warder is, given that the Aes Sedai / Warder bond had not existed in the AoL? I doubt he had enough time to truly learn the true depth of a Warder's ability with a sword. He had better things to learn of.

Mam A'Lemur
05-07-2011, 08:31 PM
Well that particular quotation brings up certain questions; i.e. how would Sammael know what a Warder is, given that the Aes Sedai / Warder bond had not existed in the AoL? I doubt he had enough time to truly learn the true depth of a Warder's ability with a sword. He had better things to learn of.

Who, but a warder, would have the capacity to recognize and kill a darkhound before they themselves were done for?

Vestis
05-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Well that particular quotation brings up certain questions; i.e. how would Sammael know what a Warder is, given that the Aes Sedai / Warder bond had not existed in the AoL? I doubt he had enough time to truly learn the true depth of a Warder's ability with a sword. He had better things to learn of.

True the bond wasn't there during AoL, but then again didn't they speak the Old Tongue during AoL as well? Aginor was speaking the current Randland language perfectly in EoTW and he had to have just barely gotten out of the bore. I would imagine that the forsaken had to have some awareness of the world while they were bound. (RJ may have confirmed this in an interview but I can't remember when/where so I may be wrong on that)

Kimon
05-07-2011, 09:12 PM
True the bond wasn't there during AoL, but then again didn't they speak the Old Tongue during AoL as well? Aginor was speaking the current Randland language perfectly in EoTW and he had to have just barely gotten out of the bore. I would imagine that the forsaken had to have some awareness of the world while they were bound. (RJ may have confirmed this in an interview but I can't remember when/where so I may be wrong on that)

Well, sort of:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Sara Part 1: When out of the three thousand year sleep, were the Forsaken still wearing the clothes from the time they were imprisoned?
Jordan: Yes, they were.
Sara Part 2: How does the process of waking up work, and were they conscious of it happening to them and or the other Forsaken?
Jordan: They were conscious of waking up, but remember that Lanfear said they were in a sleep so deep they were trapped so deep, that they were denied even dreams. Most of them were in fact in suspended animation. Balthamel and Aginor, very close to the surface, were not, which is why they were so wasted when they are seen, and why they have a certain degree of madness as well. The others came out un-aged, looking exactly as they did, but Aginor and Balthamel, although wearing the clothes they wore, and [Balthamel's] mask was an original, he was wearing it when he went in, they were further wasted, you might say, preserved by being sealed in the Bore, but close enough to the surface that they were aware of things going on outside.

This doesn't exactly make clear how much awareness Aginor and Balthamel had, but clearly it was more than did Lanfear and the others who were in "deep slumber", but presumably less than did Ishamael.

Vestis
05-07-2011, 09:29 PM
This doesn't exactly make clear how much awareness Aginor and Balthamel had, but clearly it was more than did Lanfear and the others who were in "deep slumber", but presumably less than did Ishamael.

Thanks for the correction, :p It'd been a few years since I'd read that.

Lightning
05-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Did he have wards in place at that time? And also, do we have any confirmation of how Moiraine eavesdrops with the stone? We know it isn't everything that can be detected especially you're not holding a ward against snooping.

Egwene used Moiraines technique by using a stone as a focal point in (I think) LOC when she went to snoop on the WT envoy in Caihrien. And she was rebuffed by the wards that had been in place by the AS.

And Sammael was known to be paranoid so he would definitely have had wards in place against other forsaken and that would certainly include wards that detect female channallers.

greatwolf
05-08-2011, 03:51 PM
Egwene used Moiraines technique by using a stone as a focal point in (I think) LOC when she went to snoop on the WT envoy in Caihrien. And she was rebuffed by the wards that had been in place by the AS.

You mean Nynaeve not Egwene. And she didn't use a focal point. In fact, the only other time a focal point is used in any weave is for the seals.

And Sammael was known to be paranoid so he would definitely have had wards in place against other forsaken and that would certainly include wards that detect female channallers.

Lightning
05-08-2011, 09:06 PM
No I mean Egwene. She describes her stone as a smooth red ordinary stone as opposed to Mo's blue crystal. She explains that the stone type doesn't matter and that it's just used as a focal point. And she sort of cringes behind a wall and directs her weaves at the window where she senses the weaving being done. And then when she thinks she might have been discovered she runs away and bumps into Gawyn...

Nynaeve has never been to Cahirien.

WinespringBrother
05-09-2011, 08:34 AM
No I mean Egwene. She describes her stone as a smooth red ordinary stone as opposed to Mo's blue crystal. She explains that the stone type doesn't matter and that it's just used as a focal point. And she sort of cringes behind a wall and directs her weaves at the window where she senses the weaving being done. And then when she thinks she might have been discovered she runs away and bumps into Gawyn...

Nynaeve has never been to Cahirien.

She has never been to the city, but she was in the country briefly.

greatwolf
05-15-2011, 01:16 PM
No I mean Egwene. She describes her stone as a smooth red ordinary stone as opposed to Mo's blue crystal. She explains that the stone type doesn't matter and that it's just used as a focal point. And she sort of cringes behind a wall and directs her weaves at the window where she senses the weaving being done. And then when she thinks she might have been discovered she runs away and bumps into Gawyn...

Nynaeve has never been to Cahirien.


I certainly do not remember this scene.

Marie Curie 7
05-15-2011, 01:50 PM
I certainly do not remember this scene.

Read and find out:


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 25 - Like Lightning and Rain

One set of gates swung open long enough to emit a matched team of six bays drawing a closed black carriage with a sigil lacquered on its door, two silver stars on a field of red and green stripes. It worked northward through the crowd, the liveried driver plying a long whip as much to make people move aside as to encourage the horses. The Lady Arilyn going somewhere, or some of the embassy?

Well, she had not come here just to stare. Edging back so only one eye peeked around the corner, just enough to see the great house, she drew a small red stone from her belt pouch, took a deep breath and began to channel. If one of them was looking out on this side, she would be able to see the flows, but not Egwene. It had to be risked.

The smooth stone was just that, a stone polished in a stream, but Egwene had learned this trick from Moiraine, and Moiraine had used a stone for a focus – a gem as it happened, but the kind did not matter – so Egwene did too. It was mostly Air she wove, with a touch of Fire, done just so. It allowed you to eavesdrop. Spy, the Wise Ones would say. Egwene did not care what it was called, so long as she learned something of what the Tower Aes Sedai intended.

Her weave touched a window opening carefully, oh so delicately, then another, and another. Silence. Then...

"... so I says to him," a woman’s voice said in her ear, "if you want them beds made, you better leave off tickling my chin, Alwin Rael."

Another woman giggled. "Oh, you never did."

Egwene grimaced. Maids.


. . .


The front doors of the mansion swung wide, liveried servants bowing. The soldiers did not stiffen, but they did look more attentive. Nesune Bihara walked out, followed by a tall young man who seemed to have been carved from a boulder.

Egwene released her weave hastily, released saidar, and took a deep calming breath; this was no time to panic. Nesune and her Warder conferred; then the dark-haired Brown sister peered down the street, first one way then the other. She was definitely looking for something.

Egwene decided that perhaps it was a good time to panic after all. Pulling herself back slowly so as not to draw Nesune’s sharp eye, she whipped around as soon as she was out of the woman’s sight, gathered her skirts and ran, bulling her way into the crowd. For all of three strides she ran. Then she struck a stone wall, bounced off, and sat down in the street so hard that she bounced again on the hot paving blocks.

Dazed, she stared up, becoming more dazed by the heartbeat. The stone wall was Gawyn, staring down at her, looking as stunned as she. His eyes were the most brilliant blue. And those red-gold curls. She wanted to wrap those around her fingers again. She felt her face going scarlet. You never did that, she thought firmly. It was only a dream!

greatwolf
05-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Ah thanks Marie.

Terez
05-16-2011, 11:23 PM
Well, sort of:

[snip inferior quote]

This doesn't exactly make clear how much awareness Aginor and Balthamel had, but clearly it was more than did Lanfear and the others who were in "deep slumber", but presumably less than did Ishamael.
RJ goes into it a little more in another quote:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 14 Question: If the Forsaken were sealed away in Shayol Ghul since the Age of Legends, with no contact with the outside world, wouldn't they be speaking the Old Tongue when they woke back up? How did they learn the Common Tongue?

Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves, but the first two who were freed, Aginor and Balthamel, had been held very near to the edge of the sealing, the reason they were so visibly affected and twisted while the rest came out whole and healthy, and they were very much aware of what had gone on in the world outside. You might say they had floated in limbo while watching three thousand plus years roll by, with the ability to zoom in. That is probably the only reason they didn't emerge entirely mad. In truth, those two have a much better understanding of the current world than any of the others because they watched it forming. They don't have a complete knowledge, because they couldn't see and hear everything at once, but they have an overview that is unavailable to any of the others, excepting Ishamael to a lesser extent. But then, he's a special case.

For the rest (aside from Ishamael), who spend those thousands of years in a dreamless sleep, the language spoken "here and now" was derived from the Old Tongue. I've heard the analogy used of a well-educated, highly intelligent citizen of ancient Rome needing to learn modern Italian. It would hardly be a slam-dunk, but he or she would have the roots of the language already. In the case of the Forsaken, the task is actually easier than that of the ancient Roman, since modern Italian is a more complex language than Latin, while the Old Tongue, as I have said time and again, is more complex and nuanced than the language of "today."

sleepinghour
05-17-2011, 06:15 AM
Robert Jordan Answers: They still do speak the Old Tongue among themselves.
This was sometimes ignored in favor of plot: Nynaeve (who probably isn't fluent in the Old Tongue) was able to eavesdrop on a Forsaken meeting in T'A'R and understand what they were saying.

Davian93
05-17-2011, 11:12 AM
This was sometimes ignored in favor of plot: Nynaeve (who probably isn't fluent in the Old Tongue) was able to eavesdrop on a Forsaken meeting in T'A'R and understand what they were saying.

Well, you see, the Old Blood runs strong in Two Rivers folk and, um, her understanding of said language was based on that genetic memory and, um, LOOK OVER THERE!!!!

Tree Brother
05-17-2011, 11:13 AM
This was sometimes ignored in favor of plot: Nynaeve (who probably isn't fluent in the Old Tongue) was able to eavesdrop on a Forsaken meeting in T'A'R and understand what they were saying.

Perhaps she imagined she should be able to understand them, and could? (ie., she "needed" to understand them). Or maybe they were practicing the current dialect at the time.