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Tamyrlin
05-17-2011, 01:13 PM
So, I'm wondering what substance makes up the walls of the DO's prison that can be bored through/destroyed by the One Power, but that the TP can't undo/destroy. And if such knowledge is had by Lanfear and her research team.

In essence, the DO couldn't get out, but the OP could get in.

nameless
05-17-2011, 01:34 PM
Maybe it's buttressed to resist pressure coming from the Dark One but not from inside the Pattern?

Davian93
05-17-2011, 02:12 PM
Orange Jello.

Tasty and secure.

The Unreasoner
05-17-2011, 02:16 PM
A multiple dimensional dreamspike? Maybe 7 foci was necessary to prevent miasmas and direct action. 2 points define a line, three give a plane. 7 shields multiple worlds in both space and time, from a myriad of evils. Lose one, prison becomes imperfect, a few more gone allows bubbles of evil, and so on. Maybe having seven prevented the Dark One from pulling a Hopper.

Or are you referring to the original prison?
I will state again, I think that this is the "Last" confrontation.

Weird Harold
05-17-2011, 02:18 PM
So, I'm wondering what substance makes up the walls of the DO's prison that can be bored through/destroyed by the One Power, but that the TP can't undo/destroy. And if such knowledge is had by Lanfear and her research team.

In essence, the DO couldn't get out, but the OP could get in.
Insofar as any material anlogy can be applied to a metaphysical prison, I'd say it is more a matter of structure than material.

Consider the "Cat's Eye" reflectors embedded in highway lines: Any light that strikes them is reflected directly back at the source -- except from the back if the colored foil is removed. The structure is such that a "cat's eye" reflector simplydisperses light that is shined through from the wrong direction instead of concentrating and relfecting it.

Or think of a "one way mirror" that reflects light from one side and lets it pass through from the other: The inside of the DO's prison just reflects any power back into the prison, but is just "glass" from the outside.

The DO's prison is probably more like a force-field-globe than a material prison, but the same unidirectional "transparency" would probably apply.

The Unreasoner
05-17-2011, 02:19 PM
You raise an interesting point though, if you are speaking of the original. If OP and TP annihilate each other, it almost suggests that the DO imprisoned himself. Or that Morridin always has a last minute change of heart.

Could the TP penetrate the original wards of Callandor?

The Unreasoner
05-17-2011, 02:21 PM
Cat's Eye?

Tamyrlin
05-17-2011, 02:46 PM
Insofar as any material anlogy can be applied to a metaphysical prison, I'd say it is more a matter of structure than material.

Consider the "Cat's Eye" reflectors embedded in highway lines: Any light that strikes them is reflected directly back at the source -- except from the back if the colored foil is removed. The structure is such that a "cat's eye" reflector simplydisperses light that is shined through from the wrong direction instead of concentrating and relfecting it.

Or think of a "one way mirror" that reflects light from one side and lets it pass through from the other: The inside of the DO's prison just reflects any power back into the prison, but is just "glass" from the outside.

The DO's prison is probably more like a force-field-globe than a material prison, but the same unidirectional "transparency" would probably apply.

...the DO now attack his Prison from the outside and destroy his Prison on his own, if it was the Cat's Eye effect and the TP could unravel the Prison from the outside?

The Unreasoner
05-17-2011, 02:53 PM
I am still curious about my question regarding Callandor. I feel that answers to it could shed some light on this issue. Woven with both saidar and saidin, it effectively stopped Egwene and presumably Bel'al.

Also shielding the Black guard in TAR caused the shield to waver but not disappear in the Stone.

Weird Harold
05-17-2011, 03:17 PM
...the DO now attack his Prison from the outside and destroy his Prison on his own, if it was the Cat's Eye effect and the TP could unravel the Prison from the outside?
A matter of scale. The bore is a mere pinprick into a vast reservoir of evil.

The DO can -- and IS -- destroying his prison from the outside with as much of his essence as he can feed through the pinprick in his prison walls. A bit like breaking the stucco off your house by reaching through a moushole.

A bit like trying to drain the Pacific Ocean using just one soda straw as a siphon.

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2011, 06:20 PM
A matter of scale. The bore is a mere pinprick into a vast reservoir of evil.

The DO can -- and IS -- destroying his prison from the outside with as much of his essence as he can feed through the pinprick in his prison walls. A bit like breaking the stucco off your house by reaching through a moushole.

A bit like trying to drain the Pacific Ocean using just one soda straw as a siphon.

You raise an interesting point, though. I think there is a reason the Seals were made from cuendillar--it gets stronger the more you try to break it. If channelers could fashion a material that can only get stronger, never weaker, the Creator could fashion a prison that never decays.

That said, obviously cuendillar has some flaws as a Seal focus material. Perhaps it has a limited lifespan, and so does the Prison.

Davian93
05-17-2011, 06:27 PM
You raise an interesting point, though. I think there is a reason the Seals were made from cuendillar--it gets stronger the more you try to break it. If channelers could fashion a material that can only get stronger, never weaker, the Creator could fashion a prison that never decays.

That said, obviously cuendillar has some flaws as a Seal focus material. Perhaps it has a limited lifespan, and so does the Prison.

I think it only has a limited lifespan when exposed to the True Power...otherwise, it seems indestructable to any other power. Clearly, the cap cannot be made of Cuendillar or any direct channeling as that allows the DO to corrupt it. It sucks and it feels like a LotR copout but it more and more looks like Fain (and his particular brand of evilness) is the answer to resealing the DO's prison.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 01:02 AM
I think it is important to note which prison, some points will inevitably relate exclusively to the seven part cuendillar dreamspike while others refer to the original "perfect" one.

How does anyone know cuendillar gets stronger if it never breaks to begin with anyway?

Tamyrlin
05-18-2011, 09:15 AM
They bored through the Pattern into the Prison. Will Rand fix the Pattern, Prison or both? What if he fixed only the Pattern, but not the Prison? Is it possible to fix one half of the Bore without fixing the other? Does the Prison butt up against the Pattern in that spot in such a way that fixing one, fixes both?

Davian93
05-18-2011, 09:48 AM
Are they not one in the same? The Pattern IS the prison. It was a weakness in the Pattern that Mierin & Co exploited.

Tamyrlin
05-18-2011, 10:21 AM
Are they not one in the same? The Pattern IS the prison. It was a weakness in the Pattern that Mierin & Co exploited.

Although it has been been theorized that the Pattern is the Prison. But boring through the Pattern everywhere, as far as we know, doesn't always lead to the Pattern. Skimming, by OP and TP into the Void appears to be outside the Pattern, along with Vacoules, iirc. It just so happened in that spot that the Prison was on the other side.

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2011, 12:51 PM
Although it has been been theorized that the Pattern is the Prison. But boring through the Pattern everywhere, as far as we know, doesn't always lead to the Pattern. Skimming, by OP and TP into the Void appears to be outside the Pattern, along with Vacoules, iirc. It just so happened in that spot that the Prison was on the other side.

A physicist could probably explain this better than I could but here goes. Take a black hole and assume that is the bore. We have no way of knowing what is on the other side of a black hole and yet we know it is there by the way light reacts with it. I would assume then that the prison is the other side by which light, the OP interacts with it.

Black holes occupy a physical space much like the bore does and yet they do not in a perfect sense sense; all things are subject to the laws of physics and so to are black holes. Being the conduit like the bore is, it must also abide by the "stuff" of existence within the WoL which would be the pattern.

It would also stand to reason that while the bore represents a physical space the actual prison does not necessarily have to be on our plane of existence like what Davian is saying where the pattern is the prison but does not necessarily interact on the same level as to be in any one place within the DO's level of existence.

Crispin's Crispian
05-18-2011, 01:30 PM
Black holes aren't precisely holes--they are extremely dense masses that have infinite gravity and space-time curvature. When you "fall" into a black hole, you're really just getting stretched out infinitely. A little traction never hurt anyone, right?

But that's really irrelevant to your point, which is that the Prison (and/or DO) may have to abide by the laws of the Pattern to the extent the two interact. If the DO didn't have to abide by such laws, the game would already be over.

But, all that said, I've always wondered if there really is a Prison. Rather, I think the DO is imprisoned outside the Pattern such that he can't get inside it. He can wander around the Void all he wants, but he can't get his hands into the neat little ball we call the Pattern.

Think of the DO as smoke surrounding a coconut. He's been trying for millenia to open the coconut, but the best he's been able to do is find a soft spot through which he can speak to people. Those people had to drill a little hole, through which a little of his smoke can enter.

nameless
05-18-2011, 01:38 PM
A physicist could probably explain this better than I could but here goes. Take a black hole and assume that is the bore. We have no way of knowing what is on the other side of a black hole and yet we know it is there by the way light reacts with it. I would assume then that the prison is the other side by which light, the OP interacts with it.

Black holes occupy a physical space much like the bore does and yet they do not in a perfect sense sense; all things are subject to the laws of physics and so to are black holes. Being the conduit like the bore is, it must also abide by the "stuff" of existence within the WoL which would be the pattern.

It would also stand to reason that while the bore represents a physical space the actual prison does not necessarily have to be on our plane of existence like what Davian is saying where the pattern is the prison but does not necessarily interact on the same level as to be in any one place within the DO's level of existence.

The area beyond the event horizon actually isn't subject to the laws of physics. It might be subject to some other, different set of laws, but the ones that operate on this side of a black hole don't apply on the other side.

nameless
05-18-2011, 01:39 PM
Black holes aren't precisely holes--they are extremely dense masses that have infinite gravity and space-time curvature. When you "fall" into a black hole, you're really just getting stretched out infinitely. A little traction never hurt anyone, right?

Getting vaporized by the accretion disk might hurt a little.

Weird Harold
05-18-2011, 01:44 PM
Although it has been been theorized that the Pattern is the Prison. But boring through the Pattern everywhere, as far as we know, doesn't always lead to the Pattern. Skimming, by OP and TP into the Void appears to be outside the Pattern, along with Vacoules, iirc. It just so happened in that spot that the Prison was on the other side.
The Bore was drilled in what was described as a "thin spot in the pattern." To me that suggests that it would be possible to drill into the substrate of the Pattern -- where the skimming space, vacuoles, et al exist -- and not drill all the way through into the DO's prison; or even be ABLE to drill deep enough to reach the DO's prison.

Whether the DO's prison bubbled up beneath the Pattern from internal pressure or the Pattern wore thin because of thousands of years of OP use, or some other explanation, the "thin spot in the pattern" explains why most excursions into the substrate don't result in disaster.

In many ways, the DO and the descriptions of the creation of the Bore bear a noticeable similarity to an early oil wildcatter striking a 'Gusher' and the effects of the "DO's Touch" on the world are remarkably similar to the effect of oil spills and oil dependence on the real world. Continuing that similarity, you have to drill in exactly the right place to strike oil, finding a place where the oil deposit is close to the surface -- at a "thin spot in the Pattern."

Zombie Sammael
05-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Looney theory: The DO actually is the Creator, having accidentally imprisoned himself at the moment of creation. He has since gone mad, or simply cannot properly understand his own creations, and therefore keeps trying to break out in the most destructive way possible. This does have the advantage of explaining the voice at Tarwin's Gap.

nameless
05-18-2011, 03:38 PM
Ever read the His Dark Materials trilogy?

Zombie Sammael
05-18-2011, 03:40 PM
Ever read the His Dark Materials trilogy?

Yes I have actually. Not quite what I was thinking of (if you were replying to me).

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 05:50 PM
Ha, maybe I was right, maybe the Nae'blis always does have a change of heart.

To put the basic question simply, can humanity create a prison so strong that they cannot breach it? Or bury it so deep they cannot find it?

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2011, 08:35 PM
The area beyond the event horizon actually isn't subject to the laws of physics. It might be subject to some other, different set of laws, but the ones that operate on this side of a black hole don't apply on the other side.

Again, not a physic's dude so take my analysis for what its worth. Everything is subjected to physics, or that may be the other way around. Where the event horizon and beyond is concerned we don't know too much about that for obvious reasons. The Hawking and Schwartzhild interpretations are about where we are at now and even now they just showed empirically where Einstein was correct even though we had surmised and accepted such for some time now.

But that's really irrelevant to your point, which is that the Prison (and/or DO) may have to abide by the laws of the Pattern to the extent the two interact. If the DO didn't have to abide by such laws, the game would already be over.

But, all that said, I've always wondered if there really is a Prison. Rather, I think the DO is imprisoned outside the Pattern such that he can't get inside it. He can wander around the Void all he wants, but he can't get his hands into the neat little ball we call the Pattern.

Think of the DO as smoke surrounding a coconut. He's been trying for millenia to open the coconut, but the best he's been able to do is find a soft spot through which he can speak to people. Those people had to drill a little hole, through which a little of his smoke can enter.

In terms of the DO prison, the pattern and "existence" in Randland I always accepted it as a literary device albeit well structured and like much of what RJ did well reasoned. I somewhat agree with your coconut thought though, however i would think of it as the Pattern surrounding the DO with an extra plane of existence with the "creator" super ceding those other two levels but where the creator takes no active hand other than to not allow the DO free reign.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 09:04 PM
As for the smokey coconut idea, there really is no practical difference. It's like a single continent surrounded by sea or a single sea surrounded by land.

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2011, 09:15 PM
As for the smokey coconut idea, there really is no practical difference. It's like a single continent surrounded by sea or a single sea surrounded by land.

No there is a very real difference when discussing physics and the effects of space and time on the four dimensions. RJ is not a Sci Fi writer to make it up as he goes. This forum is as much evidence of the extreme nature of his forethought as is anything.

When I say the pattern surrounds the DO as opposed to the DO surrounding the pattern I mean what level of influence can each exert and where in the hierarchy of order do they impose themselves.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 09:40 PM
The level of influence is a function of the coastline. And we are talking about math, not physics. Time and space have no meaning until they are measured. I do not doubt that a great deal of thought was put into it, and RJ may have known the answer. But we do not, and will not, because the characters cannot. Geometry is meaningless at this level, and if we are speaking of how the two relate, then the birth of the set is significant, and primacy nonexistent. And so, we are speaking of the coastline, or prison walls.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 09:57 PM
So, I'm wondering what substance makes up the walls of the DO's prison that can be bored through/destroyed by the One Power, but that the TP can't undo/destroy. And if such knowledge is had by Lanfear and her research team.

In essence, the DO couldn't get out, but the OP could get in.

Since its clear we are speaking of the original...
Why assume the TP cannot get through? If the DO is the TP, it requires a channeler. Maybe the evil in men's heart is simply another form of the TP, like saidin to saidar.

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2011, 10:04 PM
The level of influence is a function of the coastline.


If you want to actually explain it in such terms you can. Does not mean I have to agree with it and prefer my own understanding of it.

And we are talking about math, not physics.


You might have been, "we" is a suspect term as to who that includes and would claim such.

Time and space have no meaning until they are measured.


Ohh, Up until a few weeks ago when we empirically "measured" Einsteins theory I guess we are all just in law di da land. Newton was the first and yet by our current methods his ability to measure things was lacking. Science begins with observation so just declaring something to not have meaning does not make it true. Newton observed what Einstein showed and whatever the names of the scientists who proved it.

Let me give you an example of the weakness of your statement.

What is gravity? Its light that slows to become matter but at what point and where we do not know, by your statement none of that is important because we cannot show how and yet they are important and exercise swaying influences.

Another example, what is an atom made of? Particles. What are particles made of? Quarks. What are quarks made of? Well we don't rightly know atm and yet it cannot be said they do not exercise meaning and influence just because we do not know.

I do not doubt that a great deal of thought was put into it, and RJ may have known the answer. But we do not, and will not, because the characters cannot.

Theory-land. Theories. Theorizing what may be or may not have been. As it relates to the argument it might as well be a deus ex machina on how it is all supposed to work but I will give RJ credit for the level of thought he put into if nothing else the character and cultures.

Geometry is meaningless at this level, and if we are speaking of how the two relate, then the birth of the set is significant, and primacy nonexistent. And so, we are speaking of the coastline, or prison walls.

Your first statement here is incongruous with the rest. You announce that "we" are discussing math not physics a statement that is woefully inadequate in the first place and go back to your original supposition of coastline vs walls. You can throw a bunch of seemingly intelligent phrases together but if they make no sense then they make no sense.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 10:04 PM
Maybe the TP is like antimatter, annihilating what it touches, but on a level beyond simply matter. Wind blowing in two directions, reflections stepping out of mirrors suggest a breakdown (annihilation) of logic itself. It could even react with morals, if they exist along yet another axis, explaining the breakdown in society after the Bore. This is why I favor the multiple part dreamspike patch idea

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 10:12 PM
Haha, funny man. We measure physics simply being aware of its effects. And the DO and his bubbles of evil clearly exist outside of four-dimensional physics. All science does is enhance our senses and therefore our awareness. But with regards to the DO, he exists outside of the axioms of mathematics. And so physics, being a subset of mathematics, cannot explain him. Have you ever been to Finnland? I added two and two, got a cow. Used my next to wishes to get out, and safely. What was my first wish? Wouldn't you like to know...

Res_Ipsa
05-18-2011, 11:36 PM
Haha, funny man. We measure physics simply being aware of its effects. And the DO and his bubbles of evil clearly exist outside of four-dimensional physics. All science does is enhance our senses and therefore our awareness. But with regards to the DO, he exists outside of the axioms of mathematics. And so physics, being a subset of mathematics, cannot explain him. Have you ever been to Finnland? I added two and two, got a cow. Used my next to wishes to get out, and safely. What was my first wish? Wouldn't you like to know...

I cant stay mad at someone with a Cartman avatar. He is near and dear to my heart.


Also, wouldn't the first wish be immaterial if you asked after the leave takings considering the snakes and foxes are looking to cheat you and why would they grant a wish once you have left their domain.

The Unreasoner
05-18-2011, 11:43 PM
Haha. I misspoke, I should have said the last two. Was the first alone worth the trip? I tell myself yes. I do miss my thumb though.

The best theories arise from brutal debate. You and I will probably do all of the work, and then Tamyrlin or Terez will select choice bits of each of our ideas and get the credit once we collapse from exhaustion.

Res_Ipsa
05-19-2011, 12:17 AM
The best theories arise from brutal debate. You and I will probably do all of the work, and then Tamyrlin or Terez will select choice bits of each of our ideas and get the credit once we collapse from exhaustion.

Nah I mostly read these (general) forums unless its a particularly interesting thread, then I post. Scrolling down the threads most are made by youngling's asking repeats or obvious answers and are usually answered faster than I can by more knowledgeable folk. Hop on down to Non-wot for the fun stuff if you want.

Daekyras
05-19-2011, 05:30 AM
Getting vaporized by the accretion disk might hurt a little.

No, that wouldn't hurt at all...

...because you'd already have died in agony from all the x-rays that slowly cooked you on approach...nice.

Terez
05-19-2011, 05:47 AM
The best theories arise from brutal debate. You and I will probably do all of the work, and then Tamyrlin or Terez will select choice bits of each of our ideas and get the credit once we collapse from exhaustion.
Yup, that's how it works. Except Tam never does any work, and he always takes all the credit, and he blames everything bad on me. I am all up in the brutal debate on a regular basis, stealing ur ideas and making them into Great Ideas. Anyway, I didn't jump in this one because it seemed to me to be one of those dead-end metaphysics discussions that Tam loves and I hate. And he only posted because I made him feel bad for not posting in a long time. I told him I was starting to feel like a Dragonmounter.

Tamyrlin
05-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Yup, that's how it works. Except Tam never does any work, and he always takes all the credit, and he blames everything bad on me. I am all up in the brutal debate on a regular basis, stealing ur ideas and making them into Great Ideas. Anyway, I didn't jump in this one because it seemed to me to be one of those dead-end metaphysics discussions that Tam loves and I hate. And he only posted because I made him feel bad for not posting in a long time. I told him I was starting to feel like a Dragonmounter.

Never does any work? C'mon now. Rarely is the appropriate word. And takes all the credit???

I didn't post "only" because Terez and I spoke. Often, I will tweet a random thought I have but then not follow up with a post, making my interaction even more silent - I've gotten tweetlazy.

This was something I tweeted and only one or two responded, so I wanted to get a larger discussion.

The Unreasoner
05-19-2011, 01:26 PM
Well then I am back to my original position. The DO and TP are one in the same, it annihilates Pattern and OP. The DO's actions are explained agents in the pattern channeling, be it simple evil or pure TP. The Dark One has no consciousness, his voice, his name itself, are the perceived result of the DO on the mind. The fact that the name has such consistency reveals the most primitive reaction to the TP, opposition to the "adversary". Properly sealing the DO consists of rooting out the evil in man's heart, losing the memory of his presence, and hiding the TP.

Too the yin and Yang who are the pezzanovante of this place, no offense intended.

Morsker
05-19-2011, 01:26 PM
I once was stuck trying to explain where the Fain / Mashadar evil came from, if it doesn't exist in every Age, surely not in our Age, and was unknown in the Age of Legends. Moreover, we're told every evil traces back to the Dark One.

I came up with the Mashadar taint being the substance of the Dark One's prison, something the Creator made by turning evil against itself. The Dark One may be able to destroy anything the Creator makes, but he can't touch the Mashadar taint. And Mordeth got it by finding tainted remains of the Sharom, and spread it.

My problem with it is it makes sealing the Bore too much like cleansing the Taint, which I feel is boring. I like it metaphysically though.

The Unreasoner
05-19-2011, 01:30 PM
I actually really like that idea, more for the patch though. I always thought Mashadar and its evil were man-made.

nameless
05-19-2011, 02:07 PM
I think the bit about every evil coming from the Dark One is part of the religious catechism and not necessarily true. This is the same catechism that says the Forsaken were bound back at the moment of Creation, after all.

Terez
05-19-2011, 08:04 PM
Never does any work? C'mon now. Rarely is the appropriate word. And takes all the credit???
I was teasing, boss; calm down. ;)

FelixPax
05-20-2011, 07:05 AM
I once was stuck trying to explain where the Fain / Mashadar evil came from, if it doesn't exist in every Age, surely not in our Age, and was unknown in the Age of Legends. Moreover, we're told every evil traces back to the Dark One.

Where was Mashadar created?


In the Ways.



Where are two particular Waygates located?


Blight, in both Malkeri and Shadow's Lance
Shadar Logoth.



How was Mashadar created?

It's a stew created from two Evils recombining, Shadar Logoth & the Shadow.


How is Mashadar different than the Shadow?

Mashadar possesses "no Soul*";
Mashadar has "no Dreams";
Mashadar casts "no Shadow";


*Soul*--> Mashadar literally destroys the tie between a Soul's Dreams, Star body, and it's True World connection.


A Soul's Dream can access the TAR
A Soul's Star body, is the place a Soul's essence or memory exists, outside one's True World body. (Moghedien knows of this; a Mat Cauthon's pov hints at this)



How did Padan Fain Mordeth break free of the Nightmare's Moridin was given him?

Fain destroyed his own mental access to the Dream World. By doing so, Fain cast away the Light of his Soul.

The Creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth is a soul, who can rest nor die as a normal man will. What is Fain a kin to now?

A Ghost.
A Spirit.

Fain and Mashadar are One.


What is unique about Fain, from other less fortunate Souls?

Mordeth has mostly likely knowledge of the future, gained from the Tower of Ghenjei's local residents.

The Eelfinn and Aelfinn have each played Mordeth, Moridin, Mat Cauthon all as "fools".


Padan Fain has uniquely gained knowledge of Dark Prophecies from Ishamael; who believed "the Dragon" is Rand al'Thor.

One reason why Padan Fain's survived touching the Mashadar in the Ways, in tEotW book, is because the Dark One personally marked him in the Pit of Doom.

Thus Padan Fain Mordeth is motivations, abilities, and beliefs have been shaped by both Mordeth and Moridin.

Fain has achieved what Moridin's has long sought: Nothingness.

WinespringBrother
05-20-2011, 10:01 AM
Where was Mashadar created?


In the Ways.



Where are two particular Waygates located?


Blight, in both Malkeri and Shadow's Lance
Shadar Logoth.



How was Mashadar created?

It's a stew created from two Evils recombining, Shadar Logoth & the Shadow.


How is Mashadar different than the Shadow?

Mashadar possesses "no Soul*";
Mashadar has "no Dreams";
Mashadar casts "no Shadow";


*Soul*--> Mashadar literally destroys the tie between a Soul's Dreams, Star body, and it's True World connection.


A Soul's Dream can access the TAR
A Soul's Star body, is the place a Soul's essence or memory exists, outside one's True World body. (Moghedien knows of this; a Mat Cauthon's pov hints at this)



How did Padan Fain Mordeth break free of the Nightmare's Moridin was given him?

Fain destroyed his own mental access to the Dream World. By doing so, Fain cast away the Light of his Soul.

The Creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth is a soul, who can rest nor die as a normal man will. What is Fain a kin to now?

A Ghost.
A Spirit.

Fain and Mashadar are One.


What is unique about Fain, from other less fortunate Souls?

Mordeth has mostly likely knowledge of the future, gained from the Tower of Ghenjei's local residents.

The Eelfinn and Aelfinn have each played Mordeth, Moridin, Mat Cauthon all as "fools".


Padan Fain has uniquely gained knowledge of Dark Prophecies from Ishamael; who believed "the Dragon" is Rand al'Thor.

One reason why Padan Fain's survived touching the Mashadar in the Ways, in tEotW book, is because the Dark One personally marked him in the Pit of Doom.

Thus Padan Fain Mordeth is motivations, abilities, and beliefs have been shaped by both Mordeth and Moridin.

Fain has achieved what Moridin's has long sought: Nothingness.

What is the problem with this theory?

Shadar Logoth has been corrupt since the Trolloc Wars, or soon enough thereafter (timeframe 2000+ years).

The Ways have been corrupt since Artur Hawkwing's time, or thereafter, according to the Ogier (timeframe 600-1000 years).

If Mashadar's corruption predates the Ways' corruption, can we presume a cause-and-effect relationship of the non-corrupted Ways creating Mashadar?

No.

The Unreasoner
05-20-2011, 12:02 PM
In all honesty, if you weren't so thorough in your theories, I would swear your favorite spoken words were fee fie fo fum.

Marie Curie 7
05-21-2011, 02:43 PM
I once was stuck trying to explain where the Fain / Mashadar evil came from, if it doesn't exist in every Age, surely not in our Age, and was unknown in the Age of Legends. Moreover, we're told every evil traces back to the Dark One.

It's not exactly clear to me where you get that all evil traces back to the Dark One. Evil existed even in the Age of Legends, when the Dark One was sealed away. Crimes occurred in the Age of Legends, though to a lesser extent than in the Third Age, and when the Bore was opened the Dark One preyed upon the natural tendencies of some to turn them to the Shadow.

I came up with the Mashadar taint being the substance of the Dark One's prison, something the Creator made by turning evil against itself. The Dark One may be able to destroy anything the Creator makes, but he can't touch the Mashadar taint. And Mordeth got it by finding tainted remains of the Sharom, and spread it.

My problem with it is it makes sealing the Bore too much like cleansing the Taint, which I feel is boring. I like it metaphysically though.

Brandon said that Mordeth, before Aridhol, wanted to defeat the Dark One. So he studied things of the Shadow, searched for things of the Shadow and other things, anything to defeat the Dark One. He found many evil things not directly related to the Dark One, and there was one specific one that was driving him, that corrupted him.

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714)

Matt: Ok. You mentioned that Mordeth was a man that had "power". You are reported as saying that his power was that "which he got by seeking out all of the evil things that weren't related to the Shadow"...
Brandon: He was seeking things that were related to the Shadow. I think that that might be a misquote. He was looking into the power of the Shadow in order to defeat it, was his goal. He was looking into everything. He was looking into things that were not necessarily related to the Dark One as well. He was looking for everything that he could get.
Matt: Previous to him arriving to Aridhol?
Brandon: Yeah.
Matt: Before he went to the king and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for power?
Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it. He originally was good. He did not...he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with, but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has...just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power...we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.
Matt: Is the assumption then that he found one of these?
Brandon: He did.
Matt: He found one or multiple?
Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him, but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into...when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought, 'We are going to raise this kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow', but he was already by then corrupted.
Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?
Brandon: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.
Matt: I heard you answer a question last night, which sounded interesting. Someone asked about Padan Fain and Elaida...
Brandon: A lot of people don’t remember that they met.
Matt: So, his influence...how long, for example…wasn’t Egwene exposed to Padan Fain? Are there still effects that Egwene has on people because of him?
Brandon: Remember the idea that people have, generally, a choice. There are ways to turn people to the Shadow against their will, but when that happens the person is no longer the [same] person. What is happening with Padan Fain is, natural tendencies can be exacerbated or they can be fought off...
Matt: ...so Elaida’s paranoia fed that? With someone like Egwene, she might have fought it off, so it’s not going to be…
Brandon: ...right. exactly, or someone like Rand who continues to fight it off. He has become very paranoid. And the wound in his side, certainly someone could make the connection that that might have an influence. I won’t say for certain but…
Matt: ...so, the suggestion is, not only does he have the taint, which is negatively influencing him, or influencing him in such ways that might bring on paranoia; there is this accentuation of it because of Fain…
Brandon: ...this corruption…I mean that wound and the dagger…
Matt: ...that is another source…
Brandon: Mat managed to fight it off pretty much completely; well, not completely, but we don’t see Mat running around paranoid anymore. Elaida gave it something to feed upon, and it was very, very small and subtle with Elaida, but certainly that was an influence.
Matt: Ok. Is Mordeth’s power, this evil power, comparable to the One Power and True Power? Is it a power that can be woven?
Brandon: No, it’s more something along the lines of Perrin’s wolf power, something more natural. You couldn’t weave Mordeth.
Matt: Ok, so it’s more of a natural…
Brandon: ...it’s more of a natural [thing], though it is unnatural. It’s an unnatural natural thing.
Matt: ...because Jordan was really particular about…he tried to have a logic-based system as it pertained to the One Power. Is this power more supernatural in this sense than it is based on physics?
Brandon: Let’s say more instinctual, alright?

The evil that Mashadar found doesn't seem likely to have been the tainted remnants of the Sharom, since that would have been tainted with the essence of the Dark One, and wouldn't be polar opposite to the True Power.

looqas
05-27-2011, 06:55 AM
I also subscribe to the Pattern being the Prison Walls.

It would neatly explain all the places in the books where it's mentioned that Pattern is unraveling / fraying /going thin / failing / warping etc. together with the crumbling seals and DO touching the world. I think the seals are foci of the patterns like spikes holding a tent (Pattern).

The biggest problem this theory people say is that DO = True Power, which is supposed to be the antimatter of the Pattern.

But TP can't be the antimatter of the Pattern because if it were then channeling and forming weaves out of TP would not simply work. And DO's touch on the world would immediately destroy everything it touches.

One thing I've been thinking that might affect the whole thing is that can DO channel/use TP? Maybe that is the reason he needs henchmen to do what he can't himself.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 10:03 AM
Well then I am back to my original position. The DO and TP are one in the same, it annihilates Pattern and OP. The DO's actions are explained agents in the pattern channeling, be it simple evil or pure TP. The Dark One has no consciousness, his voice, his name itself, are the perceived result of the DO on the mind. The fact that the name has such consistency reveals the most primitive reaction to the TP, opposition to the "adversary". Properly sealing the DO consists of rooting out the evil in man's heart, losing the memory of his presence, and hiding the TP.

Too the yin and Yang who are the pezzanovante of this place, no offense intended.

Similar to what I said here and even earlier on this thread.