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Terez
05-19-2011, 05:54 AM
If you like, you can read why I think it's Rand (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_993c9jzmgdv&revision=_latest#Broken_Wolf). You can also click if you forgot the prophecy and would like to look at it before voting.

Zombie Sammael
05-19-2011, 07:12 AM
From a symbolic point of view, Perrin is the only member of the cast to have a significant amount of wolf imagery surrounding him that would also fit the prophecy. What you say about Rand, Terez, is very logical and well-reasoned but from a narrative view point it just doesn't seem satisfying. We've been told "Perrin is a wolf" so many times in the series that for it to just be Rand as a "broken wolf" all of a sudden would be quite out of left field, unless you're doing all the analysis.

Of course, it's entirely possible at this stage that BS is setting up puzzles for us to solve, but the question is whether or not that will leave the series as a satisfying literary work once it's completed?

There is also the possibility that something will happen within AMOL that does explicitly tie Rand to wolf imagery and specifically a broken wolf (or some other character who would fit). One could make the argument that neither Perrin nor Rand is anything like "broken" at this stage, in fact, they've both just reached the point of being "complete". I think therefore that it is fair more likely that something happens in AMOL that makes some character, important enough to "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men", will have some piece of broken wolf imagery tied to them specifically - in other words, I think the prophecy is unfulfilled, and we will not fully understand it until it is fulfilled.

Terez
05-19-2011, 08:13 AM
From a symbolic point of view, Perrin is the only member of the cast to have a significant amount of wolf imagery surrounding him that would also fit the prophecy. What you say about Rand, Terez, is very logical and well-reasoned but from a narrative view point it just doesn't seem satisfying.
From a narrative point of view, Perrin isn't satisfying for this prophecy because the connections on the other points are so weak. No one's going to lose their will to live because Perrin dies, and Perrin's connections to death are also weak.

There is also the possibility that something will happen within AMOL that does explicitly tie Rand to wolf imagery
I am assuming that will happen, but the connection as it is is strong enough.

One could make the argument that neither Perrin nor Rand is anything like "broken" at this stage, in fact, they've both just reached the point of being "complete".
One could argue that, but one would be wrong.

Zombie Sammael
05-19-2011, 08:32 AM
One could argue that, but one would be wrong.

How so? Rand has had his Dragonmount epiphany, and is now sure of himself, his purpose, and his place. His madness has subsided, and he has literally been completed through his merger with the Lews Therin personality, now possessing the memories of at least two of his lives. He still has problems, admittedly, such as his link to Moridin, but he is as far from broken as he's been shown in the series.

Perrin has rescued his wife from the Shaido, dealt with his past problems with the Whitecloaks, resolved his thorny political situation with the nation of Andor, accepted his Wolfbrother nature, learned to use the Wolf Dream, and made his choice between axe and hammer. Like Rand, he is at his most sure of himself and most confident. He too is as far from broken as we've seen him for a long time, excepting his mourning for Hopper.

So how would this argument be "wrong"? It's not like I'm suggesting Mat is the worst character in the series or something stupid like that....

Terez
05-19-2011, 08:38 AM
How so?
Both of them consider themselves to have been broken and reforged. I quoted Rand saying he was broken in TOM, and Perrin made the comment to Thom about the blacksmith's fire. Losing Faile broke him, and then he had to reforge himself.

Zombie Sammael
05-19-2011, 08:41 AM
Both of them consider themselves to have been broken and reforged. I quoted Rand saying he was broken in TOM, and Perrin made the comment to Thom about the blacksmith's fire. Losing Faile broke him, and then he had to reforge himself.

But that wouldn't make them broken now, would it? If you fix something, it's not still broken. The prophecy does allow for such an ambiguity though, I'll give you that.

Sarevok
05-19-2011, 10:29 AM
Don't forget the Broken Crown may tie into this somehow. That would point to Perrin. :)

Rand al'Fain
05-19-2011, 12:38 PM
I think it may Ituralde or Bashere. Both have been described as grizzled wolves and if one or the other died, thousands would weep. And both have (or at least had in Ituralde's case) close ties to the royalty of their respective countries. And thousands would weap for either of them, as both are well liked by their countrymen and others that follow Rand.

fdsaf3
05-19-2011, 12:57 PM
Why would the Shadow prophesies use two different names for Perrin (Broken Wolf, Fallen Blacksmith). While both names might seem to fit with Perrin, I don't see him as being a "broken" wolf.

I voted for Slayer. I admit that my reasoning is based more on a gut feeling than anything else, but the line about "whom Death has known" sticks out to me. Of those choices, the best fit I could think of for someone Death (i.e. Moridin) has known would be Slayer.

I can't articulate why I think it's Slayer, so if someone challenges me I won't really be able to defend my position. It's just my gut feeling.

The Unreasoner
05-19-2011, 01:04 PM
I cannot get onto gdocs for some reason, but how is it not the Little Wolf? If he lost Maradon (to the Midnight Towers) and the Dragon post epiphany would have been devastated.

The Unreasoner
05-19-2011, 01:08 PM
Rand practically confirmed Ituralde's role when he spoke on the DO's rationale for the apparent overkill.

sandoz12
05-20-2011, 03:42 AM
I think Rand is the Broken Wolf mostly for the reasons Terez has listed but also from using this backwards logic.

I think at the end all three ta'veren will be alive. The Broken Wolf will die. The one who we know will come back to life is Rand therefore most likely the broken wolf is Rand.

I would like it to be Perrin (even though I like his character) as I feel the ending would be more satisfying with at least a couple of major characters dying to add gravitas to to the victory but I think at the end all three ta'veren will still be standing.

Lightning
05-20-2011, 05:29 AM
I think the broken wolf is referring to someone who already has a strong association with wolves.

That mean Perrin, Ituralde, and Bashere. Of the three I think Perrin is the leas likely candidate because a) his wolf qualities are something that is only known to the two rivers folks and the people he rescued from Malden and a few Seanchans and b) Perrin himself as a person is not known far and wide and his falling or breaking will have very little effect on the 'hearts of men' in general. 'men' barely know he exists, let alone care what happens to him. And c) the prophecy has already talked about him (unless there is another blacksmith that I've missed).

Bashere and Ituralde on the other hand are a different story. They are two of the great generals. Known by everyone for their experience and skill. When people want to hope to have a chance of winning they turn to people like these two, and they trust them to help save them and lead the armies of the light to victory. So indeed if either of them is defeated and falls in battle it will be a great blow to the light and symbolically speaking the loss of one of the greatest generals will mean the defeat of light and would certainly serve to bring fear and hopelessness to people's hearts.

The question is which of them is the 'broken' wolf? I would have to say that it depends largely on the 'broken' bit in the prophecy.

If the broken part has already happened then it would have to be Bashere because of the whole broken crown thing. And we've been getting hints of the importance of that all along since Faiel came into the picture, so you can be sure something is gonna come of it.

But I believe the prophecy is referring to Ituralde because of the three, he is the only one who is publicly known as the wolf. Perrin is only known by his small following and Bashere is only connected to wolves by the pommel of his dagger (which is something the readers are aware of and not the general public). The only thing left is the broken part of the prophecy, but I think like most of the other things in that prophecy the breaking is yet to happen to the wolf.

sandoz12
05-20-2011, 06:07 AM
The other point I have just thought of is that 'fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers' doesn't necessary mean death. What it could possibly mean is the loss of Rand's own existence and complete merger with Moridin.

IE he becomes consumed by Moridin. So his destruction isn't even a physical death but simply that Moridin manages to take over his body thus fulfilling the prophecy ('fall and consumed') and this would definitely cause 'fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself' knowing that their saviour has become consumed by one of the forsaken.

I just think their may be something in that the words used are 'fall', 'consumed' and 'destruction'. Death itself isn't used - which could well be a telling point.

Terez
05-20-2011, 06:10 AM
Bashere's wolf connection is even weaker than Rand's. And again, the wolf bit is most likely a red herring, and all of you are falling for it. The other qualifications are much more important, and more limiting.

Also, I doubt most people who voted bothered to read what I wrote about it. There's some pretty solid evidence for it being Rand, not least the connection between the foreshadowing of the merge with Moridin and the prophecy.

sandoz12
05-20-2011, 06:17 AM
Also, I doubt most people who voted bothered to read what I wrote about it. There's some pretty solid evidence for it being Rand, not least the connection between the foreshadowing of the merge with Moridin and the prophecy.

Yeah atm we are in a camp of two. Interesting that the DM poll is running the other way (or was the last time I looked). But still on DM there are people who are convinced it's Hopper. I mean Hopper?

Mort
05-20-2011, 07:09 AM
My bet is on Rand for this one. All other characters seems unlikely.

Terez
05-20-2011, 07:09 AM
I remember Neilbert argued (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=132259#post132259) it was Hopper. Good quote there:

Meanwhile, back at theoryland, people are speculating that the broken wolf is Bashere because he carries a baton with a wolf's head on it.

Good night.
I think that was one of Neil's last posts in the WoT discussion boards.

sandoz12
05-20-2011, 07:42 AM
I remember Neilbert argued (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=132259#post132259) it was Hopper. Good quote there:


I think that was one of Neil's last posts in the WoT discussion boards.

I especially like this part of his argument:
"It's Hopper. It's obviously Hopper. It's so obviously Hopper that this whole discussion is downright silly."
It reminds me of how a politician in NZ said his 'argument was so powerful that he didn't need to discuss it' when he was being grilled on a point. He was rightly ridiculed by all and sundry. An argument so powerful that you don't need to talk about it generally isn't.

The Unreasoner
05-20-2011, 12:17 PM
A few points I want to make...
1 not being common knowledge is no bar to a foretelling
2 Dragonmount is full of idiots
3 sometimes a red herring is all there is
4 it's Ituralde

For Perrin....
That is the interpretation Graendal had as well, her confidence came from the Midnight Towers line.

For Rand, don't think so. Unless you actually expect him to meet Morridin en route, the timeline fails. And Morridin is a single Forsaken (Tower), not the Midnight Towers line.

Those who voted Slayer, I wish you luck.

Zombie Sammael
05-20-2011, 01:33 PM
The death of the individual concerned bringing fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shaking their very will itself, is hardly the most important requirement, and could well be largely contextual. If the Broken Wolf is a commander, and dies in battle, for instance, that might well bring fear and sorrow etc. It could also depend upon the manner in which they die. For example, the Broken Wolf is pushed from a balcony into the middle of a great victory feast, reminding everyone that the war is not yet over.

The irritating thing about this prophecy is that it could fit to so many characters, but all of them feel like a square peg in a round hole. "Death has known" could refer to Mat, who has had two near-death experiences (this posits that the capitalisation is a red herring, which it could well be).

I would suggest that for the Broken Wolf part of the prophecy, Rand is neither broken nor a wolf; he is repaired and a dragon. Terez notes in her FAQ that there are multiple ways in which he could be a wolf, but cites only the derivation of his name, which in my opinion is a little flimsy - perhaps you'd like to offer some others?

For "the one who Death has known" however, Perrin, Ituralde, and Bashere are out if "Death" means Moridin; if "Death" means simply battle, the field is wide open to the Broken Wolf dying in battle and thus bringing fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, but Perrin seems the best of a bad lot.

Terez
05-20-2011, 01:37 PM
Terez notes in her FAQ that there are multiple ways in which he could be a wolf, but cites only the derivation of his name, which in my opinion is a little flimsy - perhaps you'd like to offer some others?
That was the first thing I mentioned, but far from the only thing. Did you even read the next part?

The Unreasoner
05-20-2011, 01:52 PM
I will say again that Google docs is inaccessible to me, so a recap would be nice. Maybe death hasn't known Ituralde, but he certainly knows death, and lost many friends in the defense of Maradon.

Zombie Sammael
05-20-2011, 02:02 PM
That was the first thing I mentioned, but far from the only thing. Did you even read the next part?

Sorry - I've read that FAQ I don't know how many times, but I missed the mention of Shadowkiller and Sorilea's comments when I reread it before posting. You did launch immediately into talking about Moridin though!

If Moridin is the Death in the prophecy, there's something very interesting going on with the construction of that sentence: the rest of the prophecy is written in the future tense, but it's written in the past tense. This implies that Moridin knew the Broken Wolf once, but may not any more. This might be more evidence for Rand. If Death does not mean Moridin, it's evidence for Mat, but he has precious little else in his favour. On the other hand, it could be someone Moridin knew before he was Moridin, though I think is unlikely based on something RJ said about Moridin being insignificant before Ishy moved in.*

Another interesting thing in the construction of the prophecy is that the "And his destruction..." part is a separate sentence. The first sentence in that paragraph has more than one subject: the One-Eyed Fool, the First Among Vermin, Him Who Will Destroy, and the Fallen Blacksmith. The second sentence has the Broken Wolf and Death. The third, however, simply has "His". It's in fact not entirely clear that the "his" of the Third Sentence even is the Broken Wolf at all. The only thing we can see with any certain about this "his" is that it's not the Great Lord: His name is capitalized whenever He is mentioned. Logically one would expect this "his" to refer to one of the subjects of the other sentences; it's therefore either the Broken Wolf, the One-Eyed Fool, the First Among Vermin, or the Fallen Blacksmith. On the other hand, if it does refer to Him Who Will Destroy, that actually makes a lot of sense of the "bringing fear and sorrow to the hearts of men"; the Great Lord of the Dark's "destruction" being not his own end, but the destruction he will wreak. "Destruction" having a dual meaning could have a lot of significance to any of the other candidates for that "his" as well.

If the "his" of the third sentence refers to someone other than the Broken Wolf, then the gender of the Broken Wolf is in fact not fixed. This opens up the field a little more.

The construction of the paragraph does imply that "his" should refer to the Broken Wolf, but there must be some reason for the full stop**!

*Terez, you are not my person quote machine, but you are the quote-mistress, and I've looked in the database, and I can't find a quote that matches what I was thinking of. Am I dreaming it up as far as you know off the top of your head?

**This reason could be to send me down a blind alley of grammatical over-analysis.

Chazle
05-20-2011, 04:15 PM
1. Has known Death.
2. Shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.
3. His death 'shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself'.

Why is everyone not even mentioning Mat? I'm not as well versed in WoT as most people who post here (I really only lurk...) but it might not be as subtle as most things in wot.

Mat has known death countless times through his memories. He remembers each death, he's said so numerous times. I'm too lazy to quote it. But it's like quoting him saying "blood and ashes"...it's everywhere.

Shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers? This is honestly the shakiest point of my argument...his ties to the Seanchan, and the Empress specifically is really all that I can think of off the top of my head.

But its the third requirement that screams "Matrim Cauthon!"

How many people have flocked to Mat? They flock to him, not the idea of him. People flock to the Dragon Reborn's army because he's the flipping Dragon Reborn, and the Last Battle's coming. People flock to follow Mat because he always wins, he keeps his army well maintained and in order. People trust him with their lives without a second thought. If he was to fall during the Last Battle, it would freak people out. This is Rand Al'Thor's man. The man who does not lose. A man who was praised by the greatest generals of the time.


I know this isn't the greatest argument in the world, but I don't think that there's enough evidence against him to brush him aside.

Crispin's Crispian
05-20-2011, 04:26 PM
Why is everyone not even mentioning Mat?
Because there is next to nothing associating Mat with a wolf. A fox, sure, but not a wolf.

Zombie Sammael
05-20-2011, 04:26 PM
On Mat falling to the Midnight Towers:

Tuon suddenly pushed Mat, hard, so that he fell backwards on to the bed. "And now," she said, "I'm going to consume your midnight tower...."

Crispin's Crispian
05-20-2011, 06:51 PM
On Mat falling to the Midnight Towers:

That was...terrible.

Zombie Sammael
05-20-2011, 06:54 PM
That was...terrible.

But points for trying, right? We do do points for trying here?

Rand al'Fain
05-20-2011, 07:03 PM
Wouldn't that had worked better with Tylin when she was still alive and they getting it on?

Zombie Sammael
05-20-2011, 07:06 PM
I spent 20 minutes writing that analysis of the language in the prophecy, and about two on the Mat gag. Which do you guys decide merits discussion? :rolleyes:

fdsaf3
05-21-2011, 01:12 AM
Also, I doubt most people who voted bothered to read what I wrote about it. There's some pretty solid evidence for it being Rand, not least the connection between the foreshadowing of the merge with Moridin and the prophecy.

So you make a poll with multiple choices and then expect everyone who votes to read what you wrote and agree with you? Seems more than a bit self-serving, if you ask me.

For the record, nope, I haven't read your lengthy writeup of why it's Rand. But answer me this: in any document of prophecy in any fictional series, when has the prophecy referred to one person with more than one pronoun? The "first among vermin" is Rand; why would the prophecy then also name him the Broken Wolf?

There might be all the circumstantial evidence in the world why Rand is the Broken Wolf, but I won't be convinced unless this is addressed.

Terez
05-21-2011, 01:17 AM
So you make a poll with multiple choices and then expect everyone who votes to read what you wrote and agree with you?
Where did you come up with that BS? All I said is that probably no one bothered to read it, which is probably true. Most people base their opinions on gut feelings rather than actual evidence and logic.

when has the prophecy referred to one person with more than one pronoun?Who do you think the Broken Champion is? Why refer to the Dark One as the Great Lord, the Greatest One, and Him who will Destroy?

There might be all the circumstantial evidence in the world why Rand is the Broken Wolf, but I won't be convinced unless this is addressed.You could have addressed it yourself if you'd thought about it for more than two seconds.

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 04:24 AM
Well sure, hard to bash someone's theory without reading it, but in all fairness, you started the poll and clearly feel strongly about the subject enough to do a write up about it. You can hardly call a vote and get annoyed when people disagree. Threads have a necessary bias to present an argument, polls do not. I think a thread may have been more appropriate.

But done is done. I have now read your write up, and still feel that it is Ituralde. Quite strongly so, actually. And the people seem to agree. The arguments in Rand's favor seem to be even weaker than those for Perrin. While I agree that his death would be a big buzzkill, it seems that the argument lacks discretion on the other points.

Terez
05-21-2011, 07:26 AM
Well sure, hard to bash someone's theory without reading it, but in all fairness, you started the poll and clearly feel strongly about the subject enough to do a write up about it. You can hardly call a vote and get annoyed when people disagree.
I can get annoyed at whatever I feel like. But again, I'm annoyed that people don't even take the time to put any thought into things, not that they disagree.

Threads have a necessary bias to present an argument, polls do not.
This is both. :rolleyes:

David Selig
05-21-2011, 10:16 AM
I think it's Rand, he's really the only one whose death "shall shake their very will itself". And there are all those prophesies that he has to die at some point in AMOL.

Zombie Sammael
05-21-2011, 10:36 AM
I think it's Rand, he's really the only one whose death "shall shake their very will itself". And there are all those prophesies that he has to die at some point in AMOL.

As I said above, the construction of the relevant part of the prophecy may specifically disconnect the Broken Wolf from whoever's "destruction brings fear sorrow to the hearts of men" etc.

Sarevok
05-21-2011, 01:42 PM
You should have included a "I haven't got a clue"-option. Now I keep having to press "view poll results" everytime. :(

Terez
05-21-2011, 07:47 PM
As I said above, the construction of the relevant part of the prophecy may specifically disconnect the Broken Wolf from whoever's "destruction brings fear sorrow to the hearts of men" etc.
We already hashed that out at Dragonmount; the grammar does no such thing.

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 08:11 PM
Dragonmount proof is less sound than Felix's arguments, though in this case I agree

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 08:33 PM
They would gather their armies and ride when orders came from the Wolf; at least, so long as he held the King’s favor. They would even hide in the mountains and wait, at his order. Oh, they would chafe, and some would curse his name, but they would obey. They knew the Wolf won battles. More, they knew he won wars. The Little Wolf, they called him when they thought he could not hear, but he did not care whether they drew attention to his stature—well, not much—so long as they rode when and where he said.

From the CoT prologue


After Bashere came a lean Domani man in his middle years. Rodel Iturralde. He looked much the worse for wear, with dried blood on his filthy face his clothing ripped, and bearing a clumsy bandage on his arm. Rand had no visible wounds. His clothing was clean, though he insisted on still wearing that aged brown cloak. But Light, he looked tired."Rand," Min said, kneeling down. "Rand, are you all right?""I grew angry," Rand said softly. "I had thought myself beyond that."She felt a chill."It was not a terrible anger, like before," Rand said. "It was not the anger of destruction, though I did destroy. In Maradon, I saw what had been done to men who followed me. I saw Light in them, Min. Defying the Dark One no matter the length of his shadow. We will live, that defiance said. We will love and we will hope."And I saw him trying so hard to destroy that. He knows that if he could break them, it would mean something. Something much more than Maradon. Breaking the spirit of men ... he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise would have because he wanted to break my spirit." His voice grew softer and he opened his eyes, looking down at her. "And so I stood against him."

From ToM Chapter 32.

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

From the prophecy.
It's Ituralde.

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 08:36 PM
For those who demand evidence to his fall, maybe Alsalam is carrying a gift from Graendal.

Kimon
05-21-2011, 09:05 PM
From the CoT prologue




From ToM Chapter 32.



From the prophecy.
It's Ituralde.

The Wolf attributions with Ituralde should be well-known for most who frequent the site, they however can do little to dispell three major problems with Ituralde.

If he is the Broken Wolf, how has Death known him?

If he is the Broken Wolf, why should his destruction bring "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"? In the grand scheme of things, he's just not very important. The reference to Maradon is really the only possible support, and while the Shadow's actions and efforts to destroy him at Maradon may imply that Moridin saw this as a potential interpretation of that line, that does nothing to change the fact that it would have been the fall of the Borderlands, not the fall of Ituralde, that would have caused the fear, the sorrow, and the shaking of wills. That seems a problem.

The last problem is even more simple. Ituralde is insignificant. Elevating him to this level of importance- of being significant enough to warrant mention alongside the triumvirate of ta'veren, seems as silly as Felix trying to argue that Valan Luca is more than just an annoying bit character.

Rand al'Fain
05-21-2011, 09:10 PM
For those who demand evidence to his fall, maybe Alsalam is carrying a gift from Graendal.
Was Alsalam outside the fortress/house thing that Rand balefired? That's my only question regarding that.

Lapine Imperator
05-21-2011, 09:12 PM
So many new ideas, I have to admit though when I first read the prophesy I thought it was Perrin's pseudo-Manetheren, or rather the lands tied with Perrin falling to the Seanchan. Manetheren has known death, as in it was destroyed. (One could argue Death as Isha/Mor having a rather direct hand as well.) The Wolf is kind of associated with the new Manetheren and the Eagle old Manetheren. Also Broken meaning the reborn nation is in complete, (and likely to remain so,) it exists in disparate pieces/groups tied to Perrin (another piece maybe being the broken crown and Saldea.) The Midnight Towers are more literal, meaning the Seanchan shall move and take Ghealdan, parts of Andor, etc. I imagined this carrying all the way to Tar Valon while everyone is distracted with Shadowspawn or the FoM. The Seanchan come to Camelyn's rescue sort of, and Fortuona meets up with Mat at some point and this leads to the Horn's retrieval from the WT. However, the arguments for it being a person do seem to carry more weight now.

Kimon
05-21-2011, 09:18 PM
Was Alsalam outside the fortress/house thing that Rand balefired? That's my only question regarding that.

No, Elaida sent sisters to Arad Doman to abduct him and bring him back to the WT. Rand mentions (at the end of Ch 33) that he had "gotten trapped in the snows on their return trip".

If the line does refer to Ituralde, then that almost certainly requires that the Dark Prophecy has already failed (at least with reference to that section) as a result of Rand's Storm of Light scene.

Zombie Sammael
05-21-2011, 09:36 PM
We already hashed that out at Dragonmount; the grammar does no such thing.

1. I'm not going to go over to Dragonmount, do a search for an argument you may or may not have had which may or may not show up in the search results, and figure out whether I agree with what you say or not, then come back here and argue with you about something you did or did not say on another site. If you want to debate with me about what the grammar does, do it here. Aside from anything else if I go on to DM I'll never get myself clean.

2. It quite clearly does. The full stop is there for some reason.

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 10:08 PM
What the zombie said- I'm not spending a great deal of time looking for weak opposing arguments that may or may not exist. Linking to it might be helpful.

And obviously Alsalam was not in the fortress.

While Ituralde being major is debatable, I have no problem with the prophecy failing. We are trying to win, no?

Terez
05-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Dragonmount proof is less sound than Felix's arguments, though in this case I agree
When I say 'we' already hashed this out, I mean me and others. There are a bunch of annoying noobs at Dragonmount, but lately there are proportionally more here. The discussion here has really gone downhill.

From the prophecy.
It's Ituralde.
As Kimon noted, that was about the fall of Maradon, not about the fall of Ituralde, who remains to be a serious stretch in relation to the prophecy.

If the line does refer to Ituralde, then that almost certainly requires that the Dark Prophecy has already failed (at least with reference to that section) as a result of Rand's Storm of Light scene.
Prophecies that were given before the Pattern began to fall apart can't fail unless the Pattern is destroyed. They will happen, whether they are Dark or Light prophecies.

Kimon
05-21-2011, 10:12 PM
1. I'm not going to go over to Dragonmount, do a search for an argument you may or may not have had which may or may not show up in the search results, and figure out whether I agree with what you say or not, then come back here and argue with you about something you did or did not say on another site. If you want to debate with me about what the grammar does, do it here. Aside from anything else if I go on to DM I'll never get myself clean.

2. It quite clearly does. The full stop is there for some reason.

The pronoun is referring back to the last named subject. That subject is the Broken Wolf. I suppose you could attempt to argue that its antecedent could have been one of the other personal nouns in that preceding sentence, but context also makes it abundantly clear that it must be the Broken Wolf, as that sentence references his fall, and then the subsequent sentence, the one with the pronoun, refers to his destruction. Context, moreover, eliminates the only two other possible antecedents, as neither would make sense. Death could be a he, but his destruction would not bring fear and sorrow to men. The Midnight Towers are plural, and thus, presumably, could not be replaced by a masculine singular pronoun. The other personal nouns, the ones that you wish to be possible antecedents, are too far removed to allow for the preservation of sense. Thus the antecedent of the pronoun must be the Broken Wolf.

The full stop is there for a reason, but that reason is simply to avoid a run-on sentence. Admittedly , however, one should not typically begin a sentence with "and", yet this prophecy does just that, and not merely once, but twice, as the third stanza also begins with an "and".

The Unreasoner
05-21-2011, 10:43 PM
As to the failing of prophecy...
It may be that the Dark prophecies are fundamentally different. By your reasoning, no prophecy would be able to indicate the Shadow's victory.
We also have no idea when they were spoken. "Long" is subjective. Although I will hold to my theory that they were spoken by people held in the Towers of Midnight years ago.

Terez
05-22-2011, 12:10 AM
As to the failing of prophecy...
It may be that the Dark prophecies are fundamentally different.
They are not; Brandon has commented on this.

By your reasoning, no prophecy would be able to indicate the Shadow's victory.
Just as no prophecy refers to the Light's victory. Some interpret the prophecies that way, but they interpret wrongly.

We also have no idea when they were spoken.
It's safe enough to assume that the Prophecies of the Shadow predate the last year or so. You can argue the point if you like, but no one will listen.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 12:27 AM
Ha. Good points. Not sure what I think about them not being different. Have no fear I will argue that last point: as I said in that very post- I don't roll that way.

It seems to me that the strongest argument for Rand is that it shouldn't be Ituralde, which I find lacking.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 12:29 AM
If it really cannot be Ituralde, my money is on Lan. Even if Rand does fall in Shayol Ghul, I doubt people will hear in time. And don't mention the pyre, if he fakes his death, he didn't fall to the Forsaken.

Terez
05-22-2011, 12:42 AM
It seems to me that the strongest argument for Rand is that it shouldn't be Ituralde, which I find lacking.
That's ridiculous. The strongest argument for it being Rand is that

1) His premature death is the worst possible thing that could happen in the eyes of the people. Many will lose their will to live when they realize they have no hope.

2) He has known Death - Moridin - more intimately than anyone else through their link, and on top of that, he is one of the few people alive who actually remembers dying.

3) There was foreshadowing in TEOTW of him being 'consumed' by Moridin. The exact words were 'consuming, merging'.

That is why it is Rand. The only argument against it being Rand is the idea that his wolf connections aren't strong enough (again, that's debatable), and in that case, Lan surely doesn't fit the bill.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 01:27 AM
You could use those same arguments for Lan. He has courted death all his life; his death, Malkier's death, would be a huge blow to the hearts of man; and if he falls to the shadowspawn in the Gap (and whichever Chosen commands them) he may quite literally be consumed by Trollocs.

What of the use of the plural? Rand is strongly connected to Morridin, but not to the Forsaken as a group, except as the one who bound them.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 01:40 AM
Two final points:
The sentence structure strongly implies that the first among vermin and the broken wolf are two distinct people. I am curious, do you feel Rand is both?

Also, it seems that you think he will die (at Morridin's hand, no less) prior to arriving at Shayol Ghul, unless you think he slays the DO post-body swap. I always felt it would happen after, or simultaneously.

Lightning
05-22-2011, 02:05 AM
If he is the Broken Wolf, why should his destruction bring "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"? In the grand scheme of things, he's just not very important.

The last problem is even more simple. Ituralde is insignificant. Elevating him to this level of importance- of being significant enough to warrant mention alongside the triumvirate of ta'veren, seems as silly as Felix trying to argue that Valan Luca is more than just an annoying bit character.

Seriously? You think Perrin or even Mat are better know to the people's of Randlands?

Mat might have been gaining recognition recently for his advantures but to the general public he is just that. And adventurer. Ituralde on the other hand is known (in fact has been known for years) to be one of the most important, successful, skillful, and influential generals in existence. The same way people react to Bryne, just the association of his name with a cause is enough to bring men flocking in.

When the large scale battles start Ituralde will be one of the dragons top three generals and responsible for defending large parts of the borderlands. His defeat and upcoming breaking (thus the broken wolf) will be quite disheartening to any one on the side of the light.

Kimon
05-22-2011, 02:41 AM
Seriously? You think Perrin or even Mat are better know to the people's of Randlands?

Mat might have been gaining recognition recently for his advantures but to the general public he is just that. And adventurer. Ituralde on the other hand is known (in fact has been known for years) to be one of the most important, successful, skillful, and influential generals in existence. The same way people react to Bryne, just the association of his name with a cause is enough to bring men flocking in.

When the large scale battles start Ituralde will be one of the dragons top three generals and responsible for defending large parts of the borderlands. His defeat and upcoming breaking (thus the broken wolf) will be quite disheartening to any one on the side of the light.

I was referring specifically to mention in the prophecy, not to who has more name recognition amongst the masses. The three ta'veren are all mentioned in that prophecy, and are worthy of that mention, and of drawing the attention of the Shadow.

Mat is clearly not the Broken Wolf, so how many know of him and would be affected by his fall is inconsequential. Perrin is likely more well known, and is much more likely than Mat to be the Broken Wolf. His fall might bring the fear and sorrow and shaking, but in all honesty, I don't think that he is the Broken Wolf either.

Ituralde does have wolf symbolism associated with him, but that doesn't alter the fact that he could fall and it wouldn't have much effect in the grand scheme of things. He could die and it would hardly register as more than a blip on the radar. Moreover, he isn't important enough to deserve mention in the Dark Prophecy.

Lan would fit all the criteria, except for the fact that calling him a wolf seems odd. He probably would be worth prophetic mention, just not under that epithet.

Which leaves us Rand. The only hiccup is that wolf bit. It's odd, but Rand has referred to himself as a wolf.

Take for example this comment that he made to Min in tPoD (at the close of Ch 29):

"Min, I thought I was the whole pack of hounds, chasing down one wolf after another, but it seems I'm the wolf."

Rand is almost certain to fall before the end. He has known, and does know both death, and Death. His death will most certainly bring fear, sorrow, and a most frantic shaking of their wills. He is also already referred to using two different epithets in this prophecy - as the First Among Vermin and as the Broken Champion - so adding a third epithet is no big deal.

It's Rand.

Terez
05-22-2011, 07:22 AM
You could use those same arguments for Lan.
No, you couldn't. He is not linked with Moridin or otherwise intimate with him in any way. He does not remember dying. And for most people, Malkier is already dead. Lan's death would make some Borderlanders sad, but anyone whose will might be shaken by it would probably die with him, aside from Nynaeve. And there is no foreshadowing of Lan being consumed by any of the Forsaken.

What of the use of the plural?
Moridin is Nae'blis and represents all of the Forsaken; Egwene's dream showed this quite clearly.

Terez
05-22-2011, 07:23 AM
I think it's Rand, he's really the only one whose death "shall shake their very will itself". And there are all those prophesies that he has to die at some point in AMOL.
You didn't vote!

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 11:45 AM
Way to go, double check Rand voters, get that paper lol.

If knowing death can only refer to being long lost twins with Morridin or consciously recalling death; sure, you have Rand. Oh, and Mat. And the people of Hinderstrap who tried to take their own lives.

I don't see how Lan lacking significant wolf symbolism is a deal breaker for him but not Rand. Sorilea or even Rand himself using the word in connection with the Dragon does not a prophecy fulfilling Wolf make.

I would put Ituralde on par with Rhuarc for the Subjective Importance Scale, and so only slightly below Lan. Do you think that simply because he was late to a major role, the Foretellings will ignore him?

Also, Terez, you missed those questions for you. No worries, given the points you think I will argue, I have a pretty good idea how much effort you give to reading my posts ;)

Oh, and Egwene's dream showed, to me at least, that the Betrayer of Hope was crushed, but is now bigger and badder than ever, not some sort of prophetic equivalence with the collective Forsaken.

Terez
05-22-2011, 12:33 PM
If knowing death can only refer to being long lost twins with Morridin or consciously recalling death; sure, you have Rand.
You said 'THE SAME ARGUMENTS' could apply to Lan. Which is not true. I don't care what your arguments are. They're different arguments (aside from being illogical). Once you get a grasp on the English language I might bother reading your posts; for now you're just trolling.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 01:19 PM
Very clever ;)
Similar than, not same.
Very Egwenesque use of quotes though, neatly excising my arguments from context. Also choosing arguments I note as secondary? Thumbs up!

One thing I am still curious about:
Do you feel that the First among Vermin and the Broken Wolf both refer to Rand?

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 02:55 PM
After further research, it seems that a lot of the Rand position hinges on him merging with Morridin. Although I fully agree that they will merge, I fail to see how that alone is compelling for this argument. Also I suspect that victory will come with it, or too soon afterward to break anyone's spirit.

Also why assume the prophecy needs to be fulfilled? Are they not simply blueprints for victory? Lanfear and Moiraine seem to think so. And nothing I saw in the quote database seemed to contradict it.

And even if he is a wolf, he is far from a broken one.

Side note to anyone pulling for Perrin:
He is the Fallen Blacksmith. He stopped being a simple blacksmith, stopped being stubborn (his pride) and became a leader. And as I said before, the sentence structure strongly implies an identity for the wolf that is distinct from the three ta'veren.

Marie Curie 7
05-22-2011, 03:48 PM
Also why assume the prophecy needs to be fulfilled? Are they not simply blueprints for victory? Lanfear and Moiraine seem to think so. And nothing I saw in the quote database seemed to contradict it.

Then you didn't look very hard:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting (http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/50993/)

Some kid, to much laughter, asked if Rand was really going to die. Sanderson said something to the effect of 'What did the Aelfinn say?'

He then said that the prophecies must be fulfilled or the Pattern will break.

Also, Brandon confirmed that the Dark and Light prophecies (including the Seanchan prophecies such as the Essanik Cycle, for that matter) are not competing:


Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010
Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon
Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

Brandon
Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

Thus, ALL prophecies, whether they are Light or Dark, will be fulfilled or the Pattern will break.

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 04:03 PM
Thanks for that specific reference. But even so, that doubt was merely an idle curiosity, not the foundation of my reasons for Ituralde. Terez's argument for Rand begins by noting that he is the only one capable of eliciting the appropriate reaction, which I doubt, and builds from there. Aside from the timing issue and the profoundly narrow view of "Death", I see several weak spots that I interpret as arguments against Rand.

Zombie Sammael
05-22-2011, 08:06 PM
The Moridin part of the argument hinges upon Death being capitalised, which could be a red herring (or mean something else entirely, but that's true of practically every prophecy ever).

The Unreasoner
05-22-2011, 09:26 PM
Isn't winter's heart also Death? Or does it refer to the horse? And I am aware winter's heart and Morridin may be one and the same.

Lightning
05-23-2011, 03:43 AM
@Kimon thanks for the clarification. But I still disagree. Ituralde is certainly not as important as ta veren, but he is also not so insignificant that the prophecies won't even mention him.

As to why I believe Rand is not he broken wolf.

The prophecy states that "person A will end up such and such". In my mind the prophecy has clearly named the subject of what's to come. Clearly there is more than one person who qualifies for the position but honestly if you were told to name a candidate for the 'broken wolf' position without consulting the rest of the prophecy who would you have named? I would not have named Rand. He is the dragon, the lord of the morning, the kingfisher and a crapload of other things. But wolf, broken or otherwise has never been associated with him.

You might be saying the rest of the prophecy is just as significant. And you will be right. But there is an order to the prophecy that needs to be respected. Broken wolf candidates first, narrowing down the options based on the rest of he prophacy second.

So, the rest of the prophecy says 1. Death has known him 2. Midnight towers will consume him 3. There will be Fear and shaken will for the people at his fall.

The idea that Death=Moridin and consumption=merging can be quite compelling. But I see a few flaws in that argument.
A)Death/Moridin is the one who has known the broken wolf "the one whom Death has known". So it's not a requirement for the broken wolf to know Death/Moridin. And I am quite certain that Moridin knows all the candidates in the poll. Some more than others certainly, but he will be certain to keep tabs on all these people because they are all significant to Rand. Bottom line Death/Moridin is not exclusive to Rand, but can apply to all the candidates one way or another.

b) consumption here could certainly imply merging, but when I think of consumption it is an equation where a stronger element consumes and overtakes a weaker one. Or just when one element completely overtakes another in such a way that the consumed element is barely traceable. Merging however is when two things mix together almost equally. There are parts of both that can be seen and recognized in the resultant .... Subject.

I will make an analogy for those of you who are DBZ fans.

Majin Boo consumed his victims. Thereby gaining some of their traits, but on the surface there was nothing left of the people he'd consumed.

Gojita or Gotenks on the other hand were the result of merging. And you could clearly see traces of Vegita and Goku in Gojita, and Goten and Trunks in Gotenks.

Long story short, assuming that consumption=merging is stretching the facts a bit. Nice idea, but the bits don't quite fit. The thing about plurals and stuff has been hashed out so I won't get into that.

Overall it seems much more likely that the broken wolf will end up being corrupted i.e. Consumed by the shadow i.e. Midnight Towers. Whether it's the wolfs own choice or he gets 13x13 ed I don't know.

As to the fear and shaking, any one who is a clear champion for the light and a leader of men in the light can fit that bill. Some more than others for sure but this is not as specific as the other elements of the prophecy.

And finally I don't think the broken wolf is Rand because Rand is mentioned in the other parts of the prophacy. There are a lot of arguments over Rand being the first among vermins or him who will destroy (he could be eiher, that's beside the point here) or in my opinion the broken champion. Whatever the case, Rand has already served a purpose in this prophecy, and it is unlikely that he is doing double duty here. There is a certain poetic sensibility to prophecies, and here it seems that the prophecy is making a list of People and what they will do, if so it stands to reason that each person will be named once. And the likelyhood of Rand being the broken champion (the kingfisher) is much more than him being the broken wolf.

sandoz12
05-23-2011, 04:19 AM
b) consumption here could certainly imply merging, but when I think of consumption it is an equation where a stronger element consumes and overtakes a weaker one. Or just when one element completely overtakes another in such a way that the consumed element is barely traceable. Merging however is when two things mix together almost equally. There are parts of both that can be seen and recognized in the resultant .... Subject.

I will make an analogy for those of you who are DBZ fans.

Majin Boo consumed his victims. Thereby gaining some of their traits, but on the surface there was nothing left of the people he'd consumed.

Gojita or Gotenks on the other hand were the result of merging. And you could clearly see traces of Vegita and Goku in Gojita, and Goten and Trunks in Gotenks.

Long story short, assuming that consumption=merging is stretching the facts a bit.

But what I see possible is that Moridin will consume Rand. That through the bond he will take over Rand's identity thus consuming him - to me this isn't a merger but a consumption.

Terez
05-23-2011, 05:18 AM
Clearly there is more than one person who qualifies for the position but honestly if you were told to name a candidate for the 'broken wolf' position without consulting the rest of the prophecy who would you have named?
Does it even matter? Obviously the term is meant to be confusing and/or misleading, so the 'obvious' answer is probably not the correct one.

But wolf, broken or otherwise has never been associated with him. This is false.

A)Death/Moridin is the one who has known the broken wolf "the one whom Death has known". So it's not a requirement for the broken wolf to know Death/Moridin.Moridin understands much more about the link than Rand does.

And I am quite certain that Moridin knows all the candidates in the poll.Which is why it's most likely not meant that way at all. Something more intimate is required.

I will make an analogy for those of you who are DBZ fans. Why would you assume that something in WoT should follow the rules of DBZ?

Long story short, assuming that consumption=merging is stretching the facts a bit.Hardly.

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.It helps to get the facts straight first before assuming you know what's 'stretching' them.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 05:57 AM
I still see it as significant that the "Death has known" part of the prophecy is in the past tense, while the rest is in the future or predictive tense. To me this implies a previous association with Death (whether that means Moridin or not) that no longer applies. If it's not Moridin, then this can still apply to Rand best of all as he is the only male to have died and come back. The other objections to Rand still apply.

If it is Moridin, then the question becomes more interesting: who has he known but is no longer associated with? Rand does not fit the bill; it would be more appropriate to say "Death is knowing" or "Death comes to know". Any association between Lews Therin and Elan Morin in the Age of Legends would appear to be looser than, say, LTT's association with Be'lal, even, so I tend to think it doesn't refer to that.

The only things I can think of are that it refers either to someone that Moridin knew before he was Moridin, which is a bit out of left field, or that it refers to a former Darkfriend. For both of these theories, more evidence is required.

Terez
05-23-2011, 08:13 AM
I still see it as significant that the "Death has known" part of the prophecy is in the past tense, while the rest is in the future or predictive tense. To me this implies a previous association with Death (whether that means Moridin or not) that no longer applies.
If it said 'the one whom Death once knew', then your argument would hold water, but as it is, it doesn't. All it means is that Death has known him since before the time of the events of the prophecy. The future tense of the rest of the prophecy merely indicates that the events are (unlike Rand's link with Moridin) yet to come.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 08:21 AM
If it said 'the one whom Death once knew', then your argument would hold water, but as it is, it doesn't. All it means is that Death has known him since before the time of the events of the prophecy. The future tense of the rest of the prophecy merely indicates that the events are (unlike Rand's link with Moridin) yet to come.

Surely if the intention was to indicate that Death has known the Broken Wolf since before the time of the prophecy and still does, the wording would be "the one who Death knows"? For it to explicitly and clearly refer to a Rand\Moridin merger, it would have to read "the one who Death shall know".

It doesn't do either of those things. It's "the one who Death has known". That could mean "the one who Death has known [since before the rest of the events described in this prophecy]". It could also mean several other things. It could be referring to Death having known the Broken Wolf at the time the prophecy was actually written, which would be interesting, and might lend more strength to the Rand argument. The wording is ambiguous, and deliberately so; all I'm arguing at the moment is that the very language of the prophecy is open to many interpretations even more so than the terms used.

Terez
05-23-2011, 08:24 AM
Surely if the intention was to indicate that Death has known the Broken Wolf since before the time of the prophecy and still does, the wording would be "the one who Death knows"?
Why should we expect them to narrow it down for us? The wording is clear enough.

For it to explicitly and clearly refer to a Rand\Moridin merger, it would have to read "the one who Death shall know".
They know each other through the link, which is growing increasingly stronger.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 08:39 AM
Why should we expect them to narrow it down for us? The wording is clear enough.

No, it isn't. "The one who Death has known" implies a past link between the Broken Wolf and Death, whether prior to the time of the events in the prophecy or time of the prophecy. It is ambiguous, and I submit intentionally so. The use of the past tense is deliberate; either of the other two options I proposed would indicate a Rand/Moridin link more clearly than the wording which has actually been chosen; the wording chosen is slightly more ambiguous.

They know each other through the link, which is growing increasingly stronger.

The link is a relatively recent phenomenon, which Rand doesn't understand and Moridin clearly has some frustrations over. This doesn't, to me, indicate a prior knowledge in the way you argue the wording of the prophecy indicates, if "know" is taken in this context to indicate "merging" or a link. Additionally, according to your reading of the prophecy, the Broken Wolf's consumption by the Midnight Towers is also an explicit mention of his merging with a singular Midnight Tower, Moridin. Why prophecise the same thing twice?

Terez
05-23-2011, 10:16 AM
No, it isn't. "The one who Death has known" implies a past link between the Broken Wolf and Death, whether prior to the time of the events in the prophecy or time of the prophecy. It is ambiguous, and I submit intentionally so.
That's what I was saying in the first place - it's clear enough. You were saying otherwise, if you'll recall.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 10:50 AM
That's what I was saying in the first place - it's clear enough. You were saying otherwise, if you'll recall.

I disagree that that particular part of the prophecy with its odd grammatical construction is clear about what it means at all. There are about three possibilities for what it might mean, involving Death being an individual or a phenomenon, etc, which we've already gone over.

Why should we expect them to narrow it down for us? Because it makes a difference. If the meaning is that Death knew and currently still does know the Broken Wolf, that's very different from Death having known and forgotten about for some reason. One works strongly in favour of your argument that it's Rand, one leaves everything wide open for any kind of interpretation. I argue against the prior interpretation because of the use of the word "has", which suggests an activity taking place in the past. "Zombie Sammael has played cricket" doesn't imply that I'm actually playing cricket right now; it implies that I did and I stopped.

If the purpose of the prophecy was to set things out as you propose, then I suggest "The one who Death knows" would have been a fine choice of words, as it still has the Death/Moridin ambiguity to it, may still be an argument for Rand as the Broken Wolf either way, and doesn't have the notion of the knowing having stopped which the wording chosen does.

I think I've made myself clear enough regarding this particular point. However, one other thing occurs to me: "The one whom Death has known" is capable of applying to Rand whether or not "Death" refers to Moridin; in fact, under my interpretation of a prior knowing the argument for Rand is even stronger, as he has literally returned from the dead.

Terez
05-23-2011, 12:06 PM
I disagree that that particular part of the prophecy with its odd grammatical construction is clear about what it means at all.
I said it was 'clear enough'. You're the one who was saying it was clearly not in reference to the link because of tense. Now you're saying the tense is ambiguous. Get your arguments straight.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 12:56 PM
I said it was 'clear enough'. You're the one who was saying it was clearly not in reference to the link because of tense. Now you're saying the tense is ambiguous. Get your arguments straight.

My argument is that, in the first instance, the tense is ambiguous. Could it arguably be about the link? Yes, so I am not going to say (nor have I said, ever) that it is definitely not about the link. Do I think it is more likely that it does not refer to the link? Yes, I do, because "has known" does not accurately describe the nature of the link in any way, shape or form.

The theory you seem to be associating with the link between Moridin and Rand is that there will come some sort of merger, possibly to the point of body swap. Regardless of the fact that I don't like that theory, "has known" does not describe the way the link appears to work. It is something which was created, probably when Rand and Moridin BFd each others BF, and seems to be growing stronger. "will know" or "knows" would more accurately describe such a link. Moridin (who is Death, quite right) cannot properly be said to have known, in the past, Rand through the link. So in my opinion, "has known" is an awkward and difficult way to describe the link between Rand and Moridin. I wouldn't say they have known each other, past tense, I would say they do know each other, present tense, were I talking about the link.

So yes, the language is ambiguous, and it leads me to the conclusion that the prophecy is not specifically mentioning, at that point, the link between Rand and Moridin, which leads me to conclude that "Death" being capitalised is either a red herring, or refers to Moridin knowing someone else. I highlight that the tense must be a deliberate usage, since the rest of the prophecy is written in the future tense, and were it referring to the link that would work just as well in this situation.

However, I'd prefer not to talk in absolutes, as I've been very wrong about certain things in this series (Taimandred) as well as completely on the money (predicting that the Taint would be cleansed in WH), as I'm sure most people have at different points. Hence why I say the tense is "ambiguous" and don't state with an absolute certainty that I am right or wrong. I will continue to write in this manner when discussing theories, because I am not writing these books (unfortunately) and neither is anyone else on this board.

Terez
05-23-2011, 01:02 PM
My argument is that, in the first instance, the tense is ambiguous. Could it arguably be about the link? Yes, so I am not going to say (nor have I said, ever) that it is definitely not about the link. Do I think it is more likely that it does not refer to the link? Yes, I do, because "has known" does not accurately describe the nature of the link in any way, shape or form.
It describes it rather well, IMO. Either way it's a silly argument, as the wording is vague, and you're the one that brought it up. Similar baseless grammar arguments have a tendency to come up with the arguer in question realizes that the evidence clearly points to Rand.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 01:21 PM
It describes it rather well, IMO. Either way it's a silly argument, as the wording is vague, and you're the one that brought it up. Similar baseless grammar arguments have a tendency to come up with the arguer in question realizes that the evidence clearly points to Rand.

It's an awkward, difficult, downright odd way to describe a currently existing link. The only thing I can thing of to make it work is that the events in the prophecy take place after the link has come to its eventual fruition, whether that be body swap or whatever else, but that doesn't work because "the last days of the fallen blacksmith's pride" and "the one eyed fool wander[ing] the halls of mourning" happen in Towers of Midnight.

As much as I enjoy discussing language, I'm often willing to accept when something is a purely semantic or linguistic argument with little relevance to the topic at hand. Here, however, the language used is obviously of significance - even more so than it is when discussing the books in general. The prophecy has a particular, and deliberate, use of language and linguistic devices to it. You may dislike it or find it frustrating that that's the case, because you'd rather focus on the evidence you have competently and very admirably gathered together from the books supporting your argument*. This does not in itself make the entire argument about the placement of grammar and usage of tense in the prophecy invalid or baseless; your attempt to dismiss the argument as stupid is a logical fallacy.

*I still disagree with you, but I like your FAQs :)

Terez
05-23-2011, 01:46 PM
You're still wrong about the word 'has', though. For example, the USA has been an independent nation for almost 235 years. [...]

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 02:08 PM
You're still wrong about the word 'has', though. For example, the USA has been an independent nation for almost 235 years. [...]

Not the same context. In fact, what you are doing is inferring from that sentence, correctly, that the USA is still an independent nation. The next part of the sentence could well be, "but now it's been conquered by the Martians." The "has" does not indicate "still is"; the only context in which it might is "Zombie Sammael has gone to the shops", which might, depending on the context (e.g. as a reply to the question, "Where is Zombie Sammael?"), indicate that I am still at the shops. The sentence you use above in fact prima facie indicates nothing about the current condition of the USA; the inference drawn is that this is a recent condition, because "has" indicates that the subject mentioned still exists, not because it indicates that the event took place only recently.

The Unreasoner
05-23-2011, 02:12 PM
Well technically Morridin at least claims to have known the Dragon of each turning.

Although, Terez, the beauty of an analogy is that you can compare unrelated items and get a valid point, so long as it isn't taken too far.

The 13 x 13 idea is new to me.

If Terez is correct it almost seems as though Morridin chose his name to force the prophecy. Something missed though...

Does not agree=\=Does not understand your position

The Unreasoner
05-23-2011, 02:15 PM
I still think the timing is an issue. I read it to say that while the first among vermin is breaking, the wolf is consumed.

Does Terez claim they are one and the same?

knightofround
05-24-2011, 02:17 AM
My best guess is that it's either Perrin or Mat. Probably Perrin

1. "Shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."
I think this is the clearest part of the prophecy, and the main reason why I don't think it's Rand. Although Rand is important enough to fill every prophecy, this line is VERY specific to the Towers of Midnight. The only two major characters who have interacted with the tower itself are Mat (via Moiraine) and Perrin (via Slayer).

Rand's only interaction with the Midnight Towers is his doorframe ter'angreal experience in Tear. But the only thing that the Finns can be said to "consume" are his personal memories, which doesn't seem relevant to the story. Rand's got much bigger fish to fry than the Finns.

2. "Has known Death"

This is really vague and could apply to anyone really. All warders, all borderlanders, all shadowspawn, all ta'veran, and all the remaining forsaken. I don't think much can be gleaned from this part of the prophecy.

One thing I would point out is that I do think Perrin qualifies for this portion of the prophecy. While he does not have the intimate knowledge of Death like Forsaken/Rand/Mat, via T'A'R Perrin does know the dead. (specifically Hopper)

3. "His death 'shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself'"

Another vague statement, but I think the gravity of this line suggests a ta'veran. Itrulde/Bashere might be good generals, but we haven't seen any of the other Great Captains listed in prophecies and I don't see why this should be an exception.

4. "The Broken Wolf"
The easiest interpretation is wolf -> Perrin. One could argue that Perrin was "broken" by Faile (both by marriage and later by her capture).

It's tough to see Mat in this portion of the prophecy, but something to keep in mind is that the Wolves seem to have a special knowledge of both Perrin(Young Bull) and Rand (Shadowkiller). Its not a huge step to deduce that Mat might play a similar role in wolf mythology. It's not exactly the strongest argument, but it's a start.

The title might fit Bashere/Itrulde because they certainly seem to be heading towards a "breaking" point. But I can't see either of them having any connections to the Midnight Towers.

Rand certainly fits the "broken" adjective very well, and he does have a special place in wolf mythology much like Perrin. But again, it's his lack of connection to the Midnight Towers that disqualifies him in my book.

I think overall the best bet is Perrin. But Mat is still a possibility.

One thing interesting to think about: The main reason why Mat survived his adventure in the Midnight Towers was because of Bridgette's advice. Much like Fain, she is a "loose thread" in the Pattern. Wouldn't it be interesting if this entire prophecy was invalidated because Brigitte was pulled from the pattern? Perhaps Mat was supposed to die in the Tower by prophecy, but he survived because of his luck finding Bridgette.

Not very likely, but still interesting to think about.

sandoz12
05-24-2011, 02:34 AM
Rand certainly fits the "broken" adjective very well, and he does have a special place in wolf mythology much like Perrin. But again, it's his lack of connection to the Midnight Towers that disqualifies him in my book.




But the Midnight Towers are referring to the Forsaken so Rand through his bond with Moridin has more of a connection to them than either Mat or Perrin.

The Unreasoner
05-24-2011, 02:44 AM
I think he thinks that the tower of Ghenjei and the midnight towers are the same. So no. It's Ituralde.
It's hard enough arguing with intelligent people who have a few blind spots without adding morons and madmen into the mix.

knightofround
05-24-2011, 03:08 AM
I think he thinks that the tower of Ghenjei and the midnight towers are the same. So no. It's Ituralde.
It's hard enough arguing with intelligent people who have a few blind spots without adding morons and madmen into the mix.
There's only two sets of towers in WOT mythology that could possibly be described as "midnight". The first is the actual towers of midnight castle complex in Seanchan(Imfarael) which nobody in Randland has interacted with, and likely never will (not even Rand, Mat, or Fortuna). The other is are the towers of ghenji, which transcend multiple worlds which means they are also considered in the plural. I guess you could maybe argue the Black Tower might be a third, but "Midnight" doesn't describe the Black Tower very well, and it needs to be plural.

There is no evidence linking Moridin to the Towers of Midnight. This is the passage most often used to support it:

ToM, Ch 3:
"All was dust around her, and thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tarlike sky. One fell, and then another, crashing to the ground. As they did, the ones that remained grew taller and taller. The ground shook as several more towers fell. Another tower shook and cracked, collapsing most of the way to the ground --but then, it recovered and grew tallest of all. At the end of the quake, six towers remained, looming above her."

The towers mentioned in this dream are not the towers of midnight in seanchan, but rather the forsaken themselves. The seven towers that fell represent the seven forsaken permakilled at this point in the story: Be'lal, Rhavin, Asmodean, Sammael, Balthamael, and Semihage. Ishidin is obviously the 8th tower that almost fell to the ground and then ascended above all the other forsaken.

Just because this dream uses towers for symbolism does not mean they are the Towers of Midnight (emphasis retained). I know of at least one prophecy that involves Rand using an axe; that doesn't necessarily mean that all prophecies relating to axes refers to him.

Terez
05-24-2011, 03:44 AM
The towers mentioned in this dream are not the towers of midnight in seanchan, but rather the forsaken themselves.
Brandon says if we knew more about why those towers were built, we'd understand the connection a little better:

Goodreads Fantasy Book Club Q&A 14 December 2010 (http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/446240-q-a-with-brandon-sanderson-towers-of-midnight)

Amelia: Why is this book named "Towers of Midnight" when the only time those are mentioned are during the first chapter when the wind blows past them and also a mention in the glossary? I'm assuming they're going to be important in the next book. I think most people think these towers were the Towers of Ghenjei, so why the little twist in the title?
Brandon: Most of Robert Jordan's titles had twists. There are some that were very straightforward—The Dragon Reborn; The Great Hunt. There are others that are simply things like Knife of Dreams, which comes from a line in a quote at the beginning of the book. The titles usually refer to something specific as well as something metaphorical. Towers of Midnight is the title I chose. There of course are the Towers of Midnight in Seanchan, and if you knew what those were for, and why they were there, it would illuminate the question a little bit more. But the title also refers to the towers that Egwene saw.
My working title for this book was The Three Towers, as a pun on the title of the second book of the Lord of the Rings. I was writing the second book of a trilogy of sorts here, and was dealing with the tower of Ghenjei, the White Tower, and the Black Tower. There was going to be a lot more Black Tower stuff in this book which has been moved to the next book, but when I was working on it, we had a lot of focus on those three towers. So the name just struck me. It felt like the right thing to do.

Carrie: I thought that maybe it had to do with Egwene's dream. She dreamed that there were 13 black towers raising up from the ground, one fell and then raised up again taller than the others. I thought this referred to the Forsaken. Maybe Brandon can clarify.
Brandon: RAFO. But I did mention that it is related to that vision.

stylusmobilus
05-24-2011, 09:42 PM
Dark Prophecy has a liking for insults. It calls Mat the One Eyed Fool. It's my opinion that 'Broken Wolf', is just an insulting way of describing Perrin. I see where Terez is coming from by believing it is Rand but as someone else (and I apologise for not remembering who) commented afterwards, I'm not satisfied with that either.

Oatman
05-24-2011, 10:36 PM
There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself

The bolded bits are what jumped out at me. Would seem to me that it suggests that whoever the Broken Wolf is, the DO will personally end him once free. This would mean that it wouldn't matter who it was, fear and sorrow would come to the hearts of men.
I don't particuarly have a candidate for th broken wolf myself, but I disagree with it being Rand.

stylusmobilus
05-24-2011, 11:42 PM
Thanks Oatman, First Among vermin was the other classic I couldn't think of, and I was too lazy to get my book.

Terez
05-25-2011, 02:20 AM
The bolded bits are what jumped out at me. Would seem to me that it suggests that whoever the Broken Wolf is, the DO will personally end him once free. This would mean that it wouldn't matter who it was, fear and sorrow would come to the hearts of men.
That's very weak reasoning. In that case the prophecy could put the 'fear and sorrow' back with 'Him Who Will Destroy' or whatever it was. The line was included with the Broken Wolf for a reason.

Oatman
05-25-2011, 05:50 AM
That's very weak reasoning. In that case the prophecy could put the 'fear and sorrow' back with 'Him Who Will Destroy' or whatever it was. The line was included with the Broken Wolf for a reason.

The very specific phrasing of 'his destruction' implies further meaning than simply his death. In fact, the death of the Broken Wolf is never actually specified. He will fall, be consumed, be destroyed. Granted there is a strong implication of his death, but there is enough wiggle room in there, with the nature of WoT prophecy being vague and unspecific by design.
Moving the 'fear and sorrow' back, wouldn't make as much sense. The quoted passage of the prophecy follows a chronological order, where the eventual fate of the Broken Wolf causes the 'fear and sorrow'. If this is the first public action of the dark one since being released, it makes perfect sense. In fact, I would argue the closing line 'shall shake their very will itself' supports that version of events.
I'm not trying to suggest the Broken Wolf isn't anyone important, if they are mentioned in the prophecy they are bound to be. Hell, it could even be Rand, I just don't think it will be. Considering your argument for Rand revolved around him being the ONLY one who could fulfill the 'fear and sorrow' potion of the prophecy, I think I've made a strong argument for the possibility it could potentially be someone else. All your other reasoning was as weak as a Felix post.


edit: Also, the prophecy says that Death has known the Broken Wolf, not that the Broken Wolf has known death. Moridin knows many people who don't know Moridin.

Terez
05-25-2011, 06:10 AM
The very specific phrasing of 'his destruction' implies further meaning than simply his death.
Not necessarily. I happen to think it might involve Rand's body being killed, but his soul being trapped in Moridin's body, or vice-versa, but it could easily just refer to his death. In any case, I think it's clear everyone will believe he is dead, hence the fear and sorrow and shaken wills.

If this is the first public action of the dark one since being released, it makes perfect sense.Not really, since their reaction is to the destruction of the Broken Wolf, not the release of the Dark One. You're stretching quite a bit here to explain why it could be anyone other than Rand; you have to dig to come up with something tragic enough to compare to the premature death of the Dragon Reborn. If the Dark One is truly free enough to do something like that, then what point would there be in the Lord of the Evening facing the Broken Champion? It would all be over.

Considering your argument for Rand revolved around him being the ONLY one who could fulfill the 'fear and sorrow' potion of the prophecyThat's only one small part of it. There are three important points in Rand's favor, which I listed before:

1. Intimate relationship with Moridin aka Death, and also remembers dying.
2. Tie to foreshadowing in TEOTW of his merge with Moridin, which uses the word 'consuming' and also explains what 'consumed by' means rather satisfactorily.
3. The fact that Rand's premature death is the only one that truly has the ability to elicit that sort of reaction.

I think I've made a strong argument for the possibility it could potentially be someone else. All your other reasoning was as weak as a Felix post.Stuff like this is really easy to say. Harder to substantiate.

edit: Also, the prophecy says that Death has known the Broken Wolf, not that the Broken Wolf has known death. Moridin knows many people who don't know Moridin.And? None of that would be worth mentioning in an prophecy; this is an important distinction. Death has known Rand for a very, very long time - several Turnings of the Wheel - and he has known him quite intimately since their link was forged. I don't find the phrasing strange at all because Rand has been wide-eyed and ignorant about the whole thing, while Moridin has been aware. Moridin even gave him a tip-off in TGS 15, but Rand barely even thought about it. It's his way to ignore inconvenient truths.

Oatman
05-25-2011, 07:21 AM
Not really, since their reaction is to the destruction of the Broken Wolf, not the release of the Dark One.

Either I'm not explaining this well or you are making an effort to misunderstand me. The reaction is to the death of the Broken Wolf, yes. But it could well be the manner of the destruction which causes the reaction rather than the target of the destruction. As it is written the prophecy does not specify that the reaction is due to WHO it was done to. I would go so far to say the phrasing of 'his destruction' seems more specific to the action rather than the target.

you have to dig to come up with something tragic enough to compare to the premature death of the Dragon Reborn.

Who said it was as tragic? Who said it had to be to cause the reaction mentioned? I can think of many events which would cause fear and sorrow to the greater population without it being the death of Rand. Hell, even the Forsaken think the death of Perrin would be sufficient to meet the prophecy. It's easy to say the death of Rand is worst possible scenario, because it is. Doesn't mean thats the event the prophecy is talking about.

1. Intimate relationship with Moridin aka Death, and also remembers dying.

Nowhere does it mention the Broken Wolf has an intimate relationship with death. I made sure I put that point in the edit of my last post, I'll just get it back for you...

Also, the prophecy says that Death has known the Broken Wolf, not that the Broken Wolf has known death. Moridin knows many people who don't know Moridin.

So, that point isn't really a valid argument for Rand. Moridin had been playing around with all the main pieces for the majority of the story.

2. Tie to foreshadowing in TEOTW of his merge with Moridin, which uses the word 'consuming' and also explains what 'consumed by' means rather satisfactorily.

Broken Wolf is consumed by the Midnight Towers, not Death(Moridin). So, doesn't fit.

3. The fact that Rand's premature death is the only one that truly has the ability to elicit that sort of reaction.

Yeah, that's just false. Your saying the ONLY event that could possibly cause average Joe Army to fear and sorrow is the death of Rand?

Stuff like this is really easy to say. Harder to substantiate.

Much harder when the other person in discussion refuses to consider alternate interpretations of ambiguities.

Terez
05-25-2011, 09:45 AM
Either I'm not explaining this well or you are making an effort to misunderstand me. The reaction is to the death of the Broken Wolf, yes. But it could well be the manner of the destruction which causes the reaction rather than the target of the destruction.
No, I understood that fine. I'm saying that it's unsupported and makes the prophecy out to be much more misleading than it was likely intended to be. The reaction to his death is supposed to be a clue as to who the Broken Wolf is.

Broken Wolf is consumed by the Midnight Towers, not Death(Moridin). So, doesn't fit.
Moridin=Midnight Towers. This has been covered.

Oatman
05-25-2011, 09:50 AM
No, I understood that fine. I'm saying that it's unsupported and makes the prophecy out to be much more misleading than it was likely intended to be. The reaction to his death is supposed to be a clue as to who the Broken Wolf is.

In your opinion. It reads just as well the way I chose to interpret it.

Moridin=Midnight Towers. This has been covered.

I thought Midnight Towers=Forsaken. What is it that makes them Moridin?

Oatman
05-25-2011, 09:51 AM
Oh, and it's no where near as misleading as referring to Rand as a wolf of any description.

Terez
05-25-2011, 09:58 AM
I thought Midnight Towers=Forsaken. What is it that makes them Moridin?
Egwene's dream shows that he leads them. And since there are only five of them left, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the only one left standing by then.

Oh, and it's no where near as misleading as referring to Rand as a wolf of any description.
Quite a bit more misleading, actually. Rand is actually closely connected to wolves, if not as obviously as Perrin.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 01:57 PM
Egwene's dream shows that he leads them. And since there are only five of them left, I wouldn't be surprised if he's the only one left standing by then.

Why do you insist on ignoring what the prophecy actually says? It's "Towers", with an "s", in the English language indicating a plural. Whether the rest of the Forsaken are dead or alive, Moridin alone does not Midnight Towers make.

Quite a bit more misleading, actually. Rand is actually closely connected to wolves, if not as obviously as Perrin.

I wouldn't call a few off-hand comments, a possible naming source, and the fact that the wolves have given Rand a name a close link. Only the last one of those three is really compelling for a narrative point of view, but on its own, it's flimsy.

Terez
05-25-2011, 02:13 PM
Why do you insist on ignoring what the prophecy actually says? It's "Towers", with an "s", in the English language indicating a plural. Whether the rest of the Forsaken are dead or alive, Moridin alone does not Midnight Towers make.
He's got two of them around his neck (maybe three after TOM), if that makes you happy. Demandred will almost certainly bite it before Rand does. There's probably not a feasible way for all of them to consume anyone anyway, whatever you think that means.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 03:04 PM
He's got two of them around his neck (maybe three after TOM), if that makes you happy. Demandred will almost certainly bite it before Rand does. There's probably not a feasible way for all of them to consume anyone anyway, whatever you think that means.

Exactly - that's why I don't think that part of the prophecy refers to the Forsaken at all.

I have a theory I'm cooking up, but I'm afraid it needs some more time to percolate. Also, I'm a little reluctant to post anything original before I've finished my reread of the series, since it's been a while and I'm less familiar than I could be with all the little details (despite having read the series several times).

Terez
05-25-2011, 03:41 PM
Exactly - that's why I don't think that part of the prophecy refers to the Forsaken at all.
It may be that it doesn't, but the wording doesn't exclude Moridin, especially in light of Egwene's dream.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 03:46 PM
It may be that it doesn't, but the wording doesn't exclude Moridin, especially in light of Egwene's dream.

No, they aren't excluded. But there is another candidate that might actually fit better: the Seanchan.

Terez
05-25-2011, 03:49 PM
I don't think they would fit better, though I did mention them on the FAQ page. Even if the Empire is established while Rand is dead, it's not about Rand personally even though he conquered half the land in question.

Marie Curie 7
05-25-2011, 09:14 PM
Who said it was as tragic? Who said it had to be to cause the reaction mentioned? I can think of many events which would cause fear and sorrow to the greater population without it being the death of Rand. Hell, even the Forsaken think the death of Perrin would be sufficient to meet the prophecy. It's easy to say the death of Rand is worst possible scenario, because it is. Doesn't mean thats the event the prophecy is talking about.


Well, that was Graendal, and clearly she was wrong, since Perrin wasn't killed. Moridin appears to have just been humoring her:


TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 5 - Writings

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 5 - Writings

Graendal needed a victory, a decisive one. She sifted through the different plans she'd devised, selecting the most likely to succeed. She couldn't move against al'Thor? Very well. She would bring to the Great Lord something he'd long desired.

"Perrin Aybara," Graendal said. She felt exposed, having to reveal her intentions to Moridin. She preferred to keep her plots to herself. However, she doubted she'd be able to escape this meeting without telling him. "I will bring you his head."

Moridin turned toward the fire, clasping his hands behind his back. He watched the flames.

With a shock, she felt sweat trickle down her brow. What? She was able to avoid heat and cold. What was wrong? She maintained her focus . . . it just didn't work. Not here. Not near him.

That unsettled her deeply.

"He's important," Graendal said. "The prophecies-"

"I know the prophecies," Moridin said softly. He did not turn. "How would you do it?"

"My spies have located his army," Graendal said. "I have already set some plans in motion regarding him, just in case. I retain the group of Shadowspawn given me to cause chaos, and I have a trap prepared. It will break al'Thor, ruin him, if he loses Aybara."
"It will do more than that," Moridin said softly. "But you will never manage it. His men have gateways. He will escape you."

"I-"

"He will escape you," Moridin said softly.
.
.
.
He ignored her, releasing her chin and walking to the end of the room. From a table, he picked up a thick tome wrapped in pale tan skin. He flipped to a certain page and studied it for a moment. Then he waved for her to approach.

She did so, careful. When she read what was on the page, she found herself stunned.

Darkness within! "What is this book?" she finally managed to force out. "Where did these prophecies come from?"

"They have long been known to me," Moridin said softly, still studying the book. "But not to many others, not even the Chosen. The women and men who spoke these were isolated and held alone. The Light must never know of these words. We know of their prophecies, but they will never know all of ours."

"But this . . ." she said, rereading the passage. "This says Aybara will die!"

"There can be many interpretations of any prophecy," Moridin said. "But yes. This Foretelling promises that Aybara will die by our hand. You will bring me the head of this wolf, Graendal. And when you do, anything you ask shall be yours." He slapped the book closed. "But mark me. Fail, and you will lose what you have gained. And much more."


No, they aren't excluded. But there is another candidate that might actually fit better: the Seanchan.

Even EWOT (http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/dark.html) suggests the Seanchan as a possibility for the Midnight Towers, with Perrin as the one who is consumed (i.e., they speculate that he is the Broken Wolf).

The Unreasoner
05-25-2011, 11:29 PM
I hardly think the Seanchan will conquer the world in the time allotted. What I said against Rand work tenfold here. If I read it right, the broken wolf will fall almost immediately before the confrontation.

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 08:08 PM
Mazrim Taim is described as a rabid wolf in Chapter 17 of The Shadow Rising. If the commonly held theories are correct, he would certainly also fit the profile of one who Death (Moridin) has known. It's a little out of left field, but it is yet another theory to add to the bonfire before AMOL comes out and sets them all on fire. He doesn't fit at all for someone whose destruction brings sorrow to the hearts of men, but based on the grammar, I still think that bit could refer to something else.

The Unreasoner
05-26-2011, 08:32 PM
I kinda like the Taim idea. Not that I believe it, but I like it.

And for Morridin...
The fact that he holds other Forsaken mindtrapped is far more compelling than eggheads dream. He almost fell and came back bigger and badder than ever. While this implies leadership, it doesn't connotate ownership or even mascot status.

sandoz12
05-26-2011, 10:38 PM
I kind of like the Taim idea too. Again I don't believe it but would make an interesting twist. Be especially cool as the prophecy that the dark side saw helping them would actually help light the light side.

The especially ironic thing would be that it would cause "fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." but to the darkfriends in the tower who support Taim rather than the general populace.

I really like the idea now:D Just don't think it's true sadly.

Rand al'Fain
05-26-2011, 10:42 PM
I kinda like the Taim idea. Not that I believe it, but I like it.

And for Morridin...
The fact that he holds other Forsaken mindtrapped is far more compelling than eggheads dream. He almost fell and came back bigger and badder than ever. While this implies leadership, it doesn't connotate ownership or even mascot status.

I find it interesting myself, but I don't think he was reffered to a wolf of any sort since (could be wrong, but there you go).

Also, I'd call getting cut down while about 100% mad by a boy who had been going cross-country for weeks by foot without much rest fallen. But the whole reincarnation thing gave him another chance.

The Unreasoner
05-26-2011, 11:39 PM
I kind of meant more along my lunatic Taim lines. Lunatic, double agent, what have you. Broken by madness, double agent status, whatnot. 13x13ed and the world is terrified that the myself now serves the midnight towers.

Again, don't necessarily believe it

sandoz12
05-27-2011, 12:41 AM
I got that was what you were meaning. But I prefer the idea of it being Taim just for the irony of the forsaken both betting the broken wolf wrong and not realising that the people suffering fear and broken will are referring to darkfriends. I just think that would be a really good twist.