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Terez
05-20-2011, 06:22 AM
I think we need one of these threads now. You can ask any question about anything and someone helpful person will be along to answer it shortly. We know lots of stuff, and we enjoy showing off our knowledge, as anyone who was at JordanCon 2010 knows well. Dragonmount has a similar thread, but one advantage we have is that this software allows you to search a single thread.

Edit: Thanks to Felix for demonstrating early on in the thread that there are some people's answers it's usually best to ignore. ;)

FelixPax
05-20-2011, 07:04 AM
I think we need one of these threads now. You can ask any question about anything and someone helpful person will be along to answer it shortly. We know lots of stuff, and we enjoy showing off our knowledge, as anyone who was at JordanCon 2010 knows well. Dragonmount has a similar thread, but one advantage we have is that this software allows you to search a single thread.


Where has Valan Luca visited?
When has Valan Luca visited, each place in question?
Who has Valan Luca met along his journey? Confirmed and believed to have? (Degrees of certainty)



Wool-Buyer's Guard: "Story of the Dragon"


“I heard a story once,” Mat said slowly, “from a wool-buyer’s guard. He said the Dragon would be reborn in mankind’s greatest hour of need, and save us all.”

“Well, he was a fool if he believed that,” Perrin said firmly. “And you were a fool to listen.” He did not sound angry; he was slow to anger. But he sometimes got exasperated with Mat’s quicksilver fancies, and there was a touch of that in his voice. “I suppose he claimed we’d all live in a new Age of Legends afterwards, too.”

“I didn’t say I believed it,” Mat protested. “I just heard it. Nynaeve did, too, and I thought she was going to skin me and the guard both. He said—the guard did—that a lot of people do believe, only they’re afraid to say so, afraid of the Aes Sedai or the Children of the Light. He wouldn’t say any more after Nynaeve lit into us. She told the merchant, and he said it was the guard’s last trip with him.”

“A good thing, too,” Perrin said. “The Dragon going to save us? Sounds like Coplin talk to me.”


What kind of need would be great enough that we’d want the Dragon to save us from it? ” Rand mused. “As well ask for help from the Dark One .”

“He didn’t say,” Mat replied uncomfortably. “And he didn’t mention any new Age of Legends. He said the world would be torn apart by the Dragon’s coming. ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "Peddler" -- Rand point of view, with Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Ewin


Tangent: This particular chapter is literally LOADED with foreshadowing.

E.g.: Rand does later "ask" for the Dark One's help->during a fight with Asmodean in Rhuidean.


If one looks at WHERE Valan Luca has traveled, WHEN he has traveled, it sure does seem that 'war follows' his footsteps.


Aiel Waste, Shara (Lands Beyond), Tear, Illian, Murandy, Cairhien, Tar Valon, Shienar, Arafel, Kandor, Saldaea, Arad Doman, Almoth Plain, Tarabon, Amadicia, Ghealdan, Altara...


And coming soonto Murandy, Andor, Tar Valon?



Is Valan Luca possibility a 'Dragon'?

Notice I expressly did not ask nor claim that there is only one Dragon. Why? I do suspect RJ created a multiple headed Dragon. Not the Dragon, but seemingly four Dragons?


If there is only one true Dragon, has Valan Luca visited Seanchan continent previously or not?

Rand al'Thor did not visit Shara, and yet War came to that empire... seemingly violating the Wool-Buyer Guard's tale of a Dragon.


Regarding the Wool-Buyer Guard's tale, I do find it interesting that Rand al'Thor, Mat Cauthon and Nynaeve al'Meara each have heard the tale.



All in all, this Wool-Buyer's Guard tale has been underestimated by fans who write in various forums in my view, far too long.


Who is Valan Luca, really?

FelixPax
05-20-2011, 07:16 AM
I think we need one of these threads now. You can ask any question about anything and someone helpful person will be along to answer it shortly. We know lots of stuff, and we enjoy showing off our knowledge, as anyone who was at JordanCon 2010 knows well. Dragonmount has a similar thread, but one advantage we have is that this software allows you to search a single thread.

Will Mat Cauthon speak the Dark One's true name, before the last page is written in AMoL book?


Where might one get an idea, at first, that Mat Cauthon might speak the Dark One's real name?

“Old Bili named the Dark One. I’ll bet you didn’t know that.”

“Light!” Rand breathed.

Mat’s grin broadened. “It was last spring, just before the cutworm got into his fields and nobody else’s. Right before everybody in his house came down with yellow eye fever. I heard him do it. He still says he doesn’t believe, but whenever I ask him to name the Dark One now, he throws something at me.”

“You are just stupid enough to do that, aren’t you, Matrim Cauthon?” Nynaeve al’Meara stepped into their huddle, the dark braid pulled over her shoulder almost bristling with anger. Rand scrambled to his feet. Slender and barely taller than Mat’s shoulder, at the moment the Wisdom seemed taller than any of them, and it did not matter that she was young and pretty.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "The Peddler" - Rand point of view, with Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Nynaeve al'Meara


What are the chances Mat might say the Dark One's name in the Tower of Ghenjei? As a threat, if they attack or harm this party?

Yes, I suspect Mat Cauthon is not done with the Aelfinn or Eelfinn just yet....

The Unreasoner
05-20-2011, 10:56 AM
Am I reading the wrong books or is Felix out of his mind?
Haha, kidding, world needs madmen.

Seems like it's possible for some tedious questions though, a lot of work for the answer without much payoff.

Terez
05-20-2011, 12:40 PM
Based on experience I'd say it's unlikely. I don't take Felix seriously so I'm not going to stress over his questions. He thinks he knows everything anyway. ;)

Edynol
05-21-2011, 10:41 AM
Well to answer one question, Mat has spoke the DO's name. After Rand killed Ishy in Tear.

And here's a question. I already know the answer, but alot of people miss it. What is Elyas' wolf-name?

Zombie Sammael
05-21-2011, 11:11 AM
Well to answer one question, Mat has spoke the DO's name. After Rand killed Ishy in Tear.

And here's a question. I already know the answer, but alot of people miss it. What is Elyas' wolf-name?

It's Longtooth or Longclaw, something like that, unless I'm thoroughly mistaken. In which case you can all point and laugh.

Rand al'Fain
05-21-2011, 12:11 PM
It's Longtooth or Longclaw, something like that, unless I'm thoroughly mistaken. In which case you can all point and laugh.
It's Longtooth.

Heinz
05-23-2011, 04:34 PM
Through all of the reading and lurking I've done on these boards, which I've done an extensive amount for years compared to very little posting, I have come to the conclusion that Felix does one of two things. The first possibility is that he views the world and these books through a different set of lenses. The second is that he purposely twines some of the most obscure facts and quotes together based on circumstal (at best) to non-existant links (at worst) to create ridiculous statements and theories.

Since reading through his theory of Mat being the true Dragon, I have come to the conclusion of the latter possibility, and he is just laughing off his rocker at the idea of everyone trying to wrest all these in-depth meanings from a set of fantasy novels. For the record, though I don't post much, I read and think about my own ideas and theories, so I'd be included among 'everyone trying to wrest meaning'.

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 04:51 PM
Through all of the reading and lurking I've done on these boards, which I've done an extensive amount for years compared to very little posting, I have come to the conclusion that Felix does one of two things. The first possibility is that he views the world and these books through a different set of lenses. The second is that he purposely twines some of the most obscure facts and quotes together based on circumstal (at best) to non-existant links (at worst) to create ridiculous statements and theories.

Since reading through his theory of Mat being the true Dragon, I have come to the conclusion of the latter possibility, and he is just laughing off his rocker at the idea of everyone trying to wrest all these in-depth meanings from a set of fantasy novels. For the record, though I don't post much, I read and think about my own ideas and theories, so I'd be included among 'everyone trying to wrest meaning'.

To answer your question: the banana, but only if it's after midnight.

looqas
05-24-2011, 03:58 AM
- Who was gholam's master before Mat 'killed' it and why the master wanted Mat dead before all the others?

- Is Moridin's lair new base or has he used it every time he has been free since the sealing of the Bore?

- In the beginning of the series a big value was put to the Song, almost implicating that the Song will be the key to winning the Last Battle, but lately it has almost been forgotten. What's the role of the Song in all this? My own speculation is that the Song will be vital in post-LB. Thoughts?

Terez
05-24-2011, 05:46 AM
- Who was gholam's master before Mat 'killed' it and why the master wanted Mat dead before all the others?
Sammael - see ACOS: Insects

Is Moridin's lair new base or has he used it every time he has been free since the sealing of the Bore?We don't know. It could be either, especially since he seems to like hanging out in his penthouse overlooking the Bore.

In the beginning of the series a big value was put to the Song, almost implicating that the Song will be the key to winning the Last Battle, but lately it has almost been forgotten.It's not been forgotten - every noob thinks the Song will be vital. Problem is, there is no song. Or rather, 'the Song' is a remembrance of seed-singing. When the Tinkers first broke off from the Da'shain Aiel, they said they wanted to find 'the old songs', plural. It may be that seed-singing will return, but it seems to require the Nym, and there are no more Nym. Perhaps it can be used by Aiel with Nym in some way - there is the weird thing about male Aiel not singing unless it's in battle or a chant for the dead - but we don't know.

looqas
05-24-2011, 05:55 AM
I beg to differ about the gholam's master, because gholam says to Mat:


"You should be proud", it whispered. "The one who now controls me wants you more than anyone else. I am to ignore all others until I have tasted your blood."


Sammael's been dead for quite some time already. Maybe Sammael was the 1st master, but gholam was acting under different master in chapter Blood In the Air and if I'm correct this begs a speculation why Mat was number one target. The gholam also spurs another question

- Any idea how the gholam is controlled? Has authors given any hints about that? I don't recall the books ever explaining it either, but I remember wondering how the Forsaken controlled them in order that they did not turn against themselves because the OP does not work on them. Obvious answer would be True Power, but it has problems too because I don't recall Sammael ever having had access to it.

About the Song. Let's supposed that you are correct. Song = signing to trees, which would mean that Loial has found the Song at least to some extend. Or rather he has the Song, i.e. Talent for tree singing. So what's the role of the tree singing at the end times? As a side note I'm rather happy that we got rid of those Tom Bombadils, aka Nyms.

Terez
05-24-2011, 07:03 AM
I beg to differ about the gholam's master, because gholam says to Mat
For some reason I thought you meant back when it first attacked him in Ebou Dar. Anyway, we don't know, but Moridin is a good guess. Mat was the main target because he was the most important person in the area, probably. Perrin hadn't arrived yet.

Any idea how the gholam is controlled?
RJ commented on it:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

Obvious answer would be True Power, but it has problems too because I don't recall Sammael ever having had access to it.
Not only that, but the gholam sensed the residue of the True Power in his POV in TPOD, and he seems to only vaguely recall it.

Song = signing to trees, which would mean that Loial has found the Song at least to some extend. Or rather he has the Song, i.e. Talent for tree singing.
That's why I said the Aiel might be able to do it without Nym. Again, we just don't know. Apparently it was a matter of age and deep voices for the Aiel rather than Talent.

WinespringBrother
05-24-2011, 09:16 AM
That quote from RJ about Gholam is interesting because Graendal was almost killed by one:

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 23 - To Understand a Message
Graendal smiled a good deal more warmly than she felt inside, though if her gown changed color, it was by a hair. She had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam. "You seem in very good mood."

Zombie Sammael
05-24-2011, 10:25 AM
Okay, I have a question. What exactly is a mindtrap, and what does it do, beside seemingly compelling the individual it's linked to?

Weird Harold
05-24-2011, 01:11 PM
Okay, I have a question. What exactly is a mindtrap, and what does it do, beside seemingly compelling the individual it's linked to?
Conjecture:

A mind trap is apiece of "symathetic magic" that captures a portion of a person's soul/free-will/brain to hold hostage against the mindtrpped person's good behavior.

What is done to the mindtrap happens to the person trapped (and vice versa) so that the holder of the mindtrap can monitor behavior and punish (or even kill) the person without needing to know where they are.

Whether the mindtrap holds a piece of the trapped person's soul or controls an implanted bit of the mindtrap -- a la an exposive RFID chip -- isn't clear. Either method holds the trapped person's mind hostage to good behavior by making it impossible to escape monitoring and/or punishment.

Moghedien proved that the mindtrap doesn't turn the trappee into a puppet and it apparently requires active monitoring -- the trappee can deviate from orders or even disobey orders, if they're willing to suffer the consequences.

nameless
05-24-2011, 01:33 PM
I'd further speculate that the trapped piece of the victim's psyche is subjected to constant torture while within the mindtrap, based on the glimpse of Mieren we see at the end of ToM.

Terez
05-24-2011, 01:44 PM
Okay, I have a question. What exactly is a mindtrap, and what does it do, beside seemingly compelling the individual it's linked to?
We don't know exactly what it is. But it doesn't automatically compel the individual; the person wearing the Mindtrap has to actually tap into the person's mind at will and use the Mindtrap to compel, which can be done to various degrees. Once a person is well-trained it usually only requires a small touch to remind them of the fact that they are owned completely. If the Mindtrap is crushed, then the Mindtrapped person becomes an automaton with no free will; a backseat rider in their own mind.

Zombie Sammael
05-24-2011, 02:45 PM
Another, then, since it popped into my head while reading the reply about the cour'souvra: where do dolly-eyed servants come from?

Anyone saying "when a mummy doll-eyed servant and a daddy doll-eyed servant are very much in love" will be fed to Zombie Sammael's pack of Zombie Darkhounds, btw.

Terez
05-24-2011, 02:59 PM
Another, then, since it popped into my head while reading the reply about the cour'souvra: where do dolly-eyed servants come from?

Anyone saying "when a mummy doll-eyed servant and a daddy doll-eyed servant are very much in love" will be fed to Zombie Sammael's pack of Zombie Darkhounds, btw.
.
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 3 - At the Gardens

A golden-haired, ever-smiling zomara in a flowing white blouse and tight breeches bowed fluidly and offered Aran’gar a crystal goblet of wine on a silver tray. Graceful and beautifully androgynous, apparently human despite those dead black eyes, the creatures had been one of Aginor’s less inspired creations. Still, even in their own Age, when Moridin had been called Ishamael—there was no longer any doubt in her mind of who he was—he had trusted the creatures above any human servant, despite their uselessness for every other task. Somewhere he must have found a stasis box stuffed with the things. He had dozens, although he seldom brought them out. Yet ten more stood waiting, graceful while standing still. He must consider this meeting more important than most.

Taking the goblet, she waved the zomara away, though it was already turning before she gestured. She hated the creatures’ ability to know what was in her head. At least it could not communicate what it learned to anyone. Memories of anything but commands faded in minutes. Even Aginor possessed sense enough to see the need for that.

looqas
05-24-2011, 03:26 PM
- how far is Elayne's pregnancy now? Is she due before LB?

Terez
05-24-2011, 03:28 PM
She's about 4 months pregnant at the end of TOM.

finnssss
05-24-2011, 05:07 PM
She's about 4 months pregnant at the end of TOM.


If her midwife is hearing two distinct heartbeats, it would have to be closer to 5 months or more.

That's of course assuming RJ/BS is being medically accurate, which might be a big assumption.

nameless
05-24-2011, 05:24 PM
The same midwife can perform urinalysis by taste, so she might have superhuman senses :P

David Selig
05-24-2011, 06:29 PM
If you are really curious about Elayne's pregnancy, there's even a WOTFAQ article on this - How far along is Elayne's pregnancy? (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/149)

It's not updated after ToM though, which means one more month should be added, so she's about 5 months pregnant.

Sei'taer
05-24-2011, 06:42 PM
Hopefully she craps out the day after the kids are born. That'd be Karma that would make me happy.

fdsaf3
05-24-2011, 07:12 PM
Has there ever been conjecture or discussion about Shadow ta'veren? Specifically, that Ishamael/Moridin is a ta'veren? Assuming this is viable, would the golden aura surrounding ta'veren that people with the Talent possess appear black for Shadow ta'veren?

Marie Curie 7
05-24-2011, 08:52 PM
If you are really curious about Elayne's pregnancy, there's even a WOTFAQ article on this - How far along is Elayne's pregnancy? (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/149)

It's not updated after ToM though, which means one more month should be added, so she's about 5 months pregnant.

Or you could just check the WoT chronologies yourself.

Steven Cooper's chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm) hasn't been updated for TOM, but by his chronology, we know that Elayne and Rand did their thing (WH, Ch. 12, A Lily in Winter) on day 696.

According to tentative chronologies for TOM (one is here (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExS FE&output=html)), the book ends around day 846, which makes Elayne ~150 days, or ~15 WoT weeks (~21.4 real world weeks), or ~5 1/3 WoT months (~ 5 real world months), pregnant at the end of TOM.

Marie Curie 7
05-24-2011, 09:01 PM
Has there ever been conjecture or discussion about Shadow ta'veren? Specifically, that Ishamael/Moridin is a ta'veren? Assuming this is viable, would the golden aura surrounding ta'veren that people with the Talent possess appear black for Shadow ta'veren?

RJ spoke about this on his blog, and said it would be unlikely for a Darkfriend to be made ta'veren:

RJ's blog 5 October 2005 "YET ANOTHER, IT SEEMS"

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely. Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism. When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created. I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern. Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective. And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina. It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man.

Schnucker
05-25-2011, 12:15 AM
If they were at the top of the 2nd Age then it's likely they were both the strongest channelers to ever live (not counting Rand's superpowers once per Turning, presumably).

What's this about super powers once a turning?

Terez
05-25-2011, 01:17 AM
What's this about super powers once a turning?
Since he has superpowers now (presumably), then also presumably it probably happens every time the 3rd Age comes around.

looqas
05-25-2011, 02:12 AM
If you are really curious about Elayne's pregnancy, there's even a WOTFAQ article on this - How far along is Elayne's pregnancy? (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/149)

It's not updated after ToM though, which means one more month should be added, so she's about 5 months pregnant.

So Rand won't see his twins. Too bad. Unless he lives again after the LB.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 05:21 AM
Okay, I did ask this question in the thread where we were talking about something else, and I didn't get a response, so I'm going to ask it here: is there any indication either way, from the books or interviews, that Moridin, Cyndane, Aran'gar and Osan'gar (or any one or ones from that number) were anyone important before they were recycled into bodies for the Forsaken?

Terez
05-25-2011, 05:27 AM
I thought I answered that. The answer is no; the only theory that gained any ground was that Cyndane's body belonged to Cabriana, but Maria debunked that.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 06:35 AM
I thought I answered that. The answer is no; the only theory that gained any ground was that Cyndane's body belonged to Cabriana, but Maria debunked that.

No you didn't, but thanks for answering it here - as I said in the Broken Wolf thread I couldn't find a quote myself but I know you have more extensive knowledge in that area.

Terez
05-25-2011, 08:39 AM
No you didn't, but thanks for answering it here - as I said in the Broken Wolf thread I couldn't find a quote myself but I know you have more extensive knowledge in that area.
I answered it on Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/43017-ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-full-spoilers/page__view__findpost__p__1837493). Are you Thorgan?

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 08:46 AM
I answered it on Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/43017-ask-a-simple-question-get-a-simple-answer-full-spoilers/page__view__findpost__p__1837493). Are you Thorgan?

No, I'm no-one except me. Well, and Gnat. But he was me in a previous turning of the wheel. I don't post at Dragonmount.

finnssss
05-25-2011, 02:40 PM
Since he has superpowers now (presumably), then also presumably it probably happens every time the 3rd Age comes around.


What Superpowers?

How the sky clears for him or his ability to sense people around him?

No idea if the the sky cleared for LTT or if the sky was even tainted by the DO the same as it is now but he was definitely able to sense people around him. That was evidenced day 1, right in tEotW Prologue.

tEotW Prologuebut he could sense there were no people within a hundred leagues

Terez
05-25-2011, 02:41 PM
Don't play dumb.

looqas
05-26-2011, 02:11 AM
I...am pretty clueless what superpowers people are referring and attributing to Rand, so I'm interested to hear a fuller explanation.

So far I've been able to gather Rand's new-found supa'powahs to include

- people sense mentioned by finssssssssssssssssssssssssss (which I had totally forgotten and overlooked the prologue of TEOTW)

- Rand's sudden discomfort inducing presence towards DFs (as per Weiramon). Presumably he can sense DFs like Warders can sense Shadowspawn.

- Egg's hunch that Rand could have broken free of any shield they could have come up with

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 04:04 AM
@Looqas - the last one of which is likely just due to his strength in the Power, which is literally off the scale.

ChubbyAiel
05-26-2011, 07:12 AM
@Looqas - the last one of which is likely just due to his strength in the Power, which is literally off the scale.

I think his enormous strength in the Power is an effect of his superpower, not the superpower itself. I think Rand is consciously in touch with the Pattern and his own Ta'veren-ness. This means that his little bubble of protection from decay and corruption follows him around, he can seemingly mentally dominate a Hall full of Aes Sedai, and he appears to be even more powerful when it comes to Channelling, to the extent that he can shape reality around himself. A bit like Neo in the Matrix. There. I said it.

looqas
05-26-2011, 08:24 AM
I have a question: What are the golden vein things in Rands head countering the massive taint thingie? Any speculations or author comments?

Terez
05-26-2011, 09:56 AM
I have a question: What are the golden vein things in Rands head countering the massive taint thingie? Any speculations or author comments?The veins of gold represent the bond between him and his women, and specifically the love they feel for him. The light protecting his brain from the taint might be related to that, but it seems most likely that he managed to ward his own brain from the taint, rather than picking out the thorns of the taint like Nynaeve did with Naeff.

cindy
05-26-2011, 11:00 AM
The same midwife can perform urinalysis by taste, so she might have superhuman senses :P

she was most likely testing for gestational diabetes, the only way possible with the available technology.

Terez
05-26-2011, 12:06 PM
I think RJ put that in just because people complained about the fact that characters never seem to have to urinate in his books. And RJ probably figured we just would rather read about other things, so he didn't much write about it, other than to mention chamber pots every now and then, or maybe a privy (usually in a very indirect way). But since people complained...

cindy
05-26-2011, 12:17 PM
it really is how they used to check for diabetes, though. it's why they call type II diabetes, diabetes mellitus - this literally means sweet urine. i think he was trying to be accurate about how a good midwife would handle a pregnancy.

please forgive the argument, though. i'll go away now.

Terez
05-26-2011, 12:34 PM
it really is how they used to check for diabetes, though.
I believe you, and I'm sure RJ knew that. I'm just saying.

cindy
05-26-2011, 12:56 PM
:o 'k, thanks.

looqas
05-26-2011, 02:17 PM
I have a feeling that this might get long eventually and people are bound to ask same things over and over....Also I was thinking how to make this thread more accessible and usable. Collect the questions to database of sorts? But as you know with your interview database maintaining one can be a huge task. So I don't know...

Q: we know severing/gentling can be healed. Can burning be healed too?

Terez
05-26-2011, 02:25 PM
I have a feeling that this might get long eventually and people are bound to ask same things over and over....Also I was thinking how to make this thread more accessible and usable.
There's a search button at the top of the thread. Makes it not worth the time to make a database. People can always ask again.

Q: we know severing/gentling can be healed. Can burning be healed too?
My guess is probably not, but we don't know for sure. There are huge differences, such as the fact that severed people can still sense the Power, but burned out people can't. Brandon's stock answer was given in response to the question - that Nynaeve thinks anything short of death can be Healed, and she's on the right track. But that doesn't tell us anything, really.

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 02:41 PM
I have a silly question, well, two actually:

1. If no-one is ever supposed to name the Dark One, how come everyone seems to know what his name is? I'm not talking Aes Sedai and scholars; I'm talking Rand, Mat, and Old Bili Congar who named him prior to book one.

2. Terez, are you having as much fun answering these questions as I am coming up with them? ;)

Terez
05-26-2011, 03:40 PM
I have a silly question, well, two actually:

1. If no-one is ever supposed to name the Dark One, how come everyone seems to know what his name is? I'm not talking Aes Sedai and scholars; I'm talking Rand, Mat, and Old Bili Congar who named him prior to book one.
Presumably it can be written, but some have suggested it's some kind of instinctual knowledge - a supernatural yet 'natural' phenomenon like Old Blood memories.

2. Terez, are you having as much fun answering these questions as I am coming up with them? ;)
Meh. I enjoy it more sometimes than othertimes, but it's at least usually not bothersome.

The Unreasoner
05-26-2011, 10:52 PM
A few questions...
Do we know how Alivia stacks up against Lanfear pre-Finn?
Who was enforcing Ishamael's orders after he died? I would guess Demandred or Graendal, and I know Compulsion played a role, but presumably another hand was necessary to enforce, and one Sammael was apparently unable to override.
Which brings me to
How closely are Morridin's and Shaidar Haran's plans related? It seems superfade was for killing rand in book 2, but ishamael was opposed until three.

sandoz12
05-26-2011, 11:51 PM
How do isolated country kids such as Rand, Mat and Perrin learn to read and write? Do they have some early schooling before helping out on the farm/apprenticeship full time? Or are they simply taught by their parents.

I imagine there are schools for children in the cities but do we know if this actually is/isn't true?

Also why are there no mention of sports anywhere? Other than sword-fighting? Nearly every culture had some form of sport so you think it would make sense for their to be sport in the WoT.

Sorry if these questions are extra dumb. Just little things I have wondered about.

looqas
05-27-2011, 02:44 AM
Couple of questions:

Q: Can you tie off a gateway weave? AoL's equivalent of a metro system I have in mind.

Q: Do we know how high the AoL flying cars flew? I've always imagined that it was Blade Runner style 1-200m, but I recall of someone saying that they never had seen (presumably impossible) to lift anyone but a couple of meters. Nyn's lifting of Rand and Lan comes to mind particularly. That is if the flying cars did actually use power instead of a mechanics to achieve flight.

Q: The big bang that Seanchan were really scared about when El and others made an escape. It seems that all the combat weaves are fireball/gateways/lightnings/ground explosions, but one would think uncontrolled unraveling combat weave, aka Randland's Daisy Cutters, would be at everyone's disposal, but we haven't seen it in use in smaller scale. Why? Nobody knows it?

Q: Any hints that *angreal will be made this age?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 03:07 AM
Have you even read the books?

Yes, it has been done, no good for metro, check brandon's quotes.

Who cares? Presumably they are just helicopters or airplanes or something similar, and are subject to the same basic principles. They are not lifted with the power to fly, which is what nynaeve was talking about.

It was a freak accident from an unraveled gateway.

They have been as of lord of chaos, and offscreen even earlier by the seanchan

David Selig
05-27-2011, 03:09 AM
The results of an unravelling gone wrong are totally unpredictable. It could lead to a huge blast, but it can also do nothing but a minor flash of light. It can also cause the burning out of the one doing the unravelling. So it can't be use as a weapon (except if you have Mat nearby to influence the luck in your favour :))

enak101
05-27-2011, 03:38 AM
Berowin.

“We do not try to reach above our station, but skills are honed with time, and this was always nearly a Talent with me, I could hold one of the Forsaken.”
—Berowin on Shielding

She seems to have a Talent for Shielding. The Shield does not break, but rather bends and stretches.

I was wondering what was going on here. Almost a talent, a talent? How far can it go? How would she go shielding Rand?

She isn't very powerful in the one power but once she gets the shield on. Damn. What happens if someone gives this girl an angreal.

Sadly I don't think we will see her again.

In case anyone doesn't know. She is part of the Kin. First seen chapter 24 aCOS.

She just seems pretty useful for me.

Does having an anreal or sa'angreal help getting out of a shield or can you not access it when shielded to help you.

Why did Rand not keep the Choeden Kal on him after book 4. Why did he hide them?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 04:14 AM
Terez made a lovely little thread for idle questions such as these.
Allow me...
Angreal and sa'angreal are useless when shielded. Rand hid the choedan Kal for fear of their power and likely because he feared theft as well. And berowin was doa. So she thinks she could hold a forsaken? She would have to catch one first, and nynaeve has held one. Eggheads practically killed one.

ChubbyAiel
05-27-2011, 04:29 AM
How do isolated country kids such as Rand, Mat and Perrin learn to read and write? Do they have some early schooling before helping out on the farm/apprenticeship full time? Or are they simply taught by their parents.

I imagine there are schools for children in the cities but do we know if this actually is/isn't true?

I would have thought there weren't many schools in this setting, and that everyone would be taught at home - by their parents if they were working class or lower-middle class or by tutors if they were upper-middle class or nobility. Who would pay for schools? Taxation in a Medieval-type setting is a very different thing compared to modern times, and such money would not have been spent on social mobility for the poor. Any schools that did exist would have been for people rich enough to pay for it, but not rich enough to buy private tuition. (That is the origin of the term "public school" in England, where public schools are a class of private schools.)

Provided the parents were literate I imagine the slower pace of life and the stronger sense of community in a rural environment might actually mean that working class people out in the sticks might even have a better level of literacy than working class people in the towns and cities.

Also why are there no mention of sports anywhere? Other than sword-fighting? Nearly every culture had some form of sport so you think it would make sense for their to be sport in the WoT.

The Two Rivers folk have a few sporting contests including quarter-staff and wrestling, so there is more than sword-fighting. They are the descendants of a martial nation (Manetheren) and so it makes sense that they would concentrate on these things over ball games. In England in the Middle Ages, one king tried to outlaw "football" (whatever form that took at the time) because it was keeping people away from their archery practice. Maybe the people of Randland are just more focused than the English.

Also, with a lack of a rail network and motorcars there isn't much scope for teams to travel to play each other. The rise of organised sport in Europe and North American really was facilitated by transport allowing teams to travel to play each other. Otherwise "sports" would really have been localised games. Maybe the same is true in Randland and we just don't see much of local village life. Where we did, in the Two Rivers, martial contests are more important, as they would be in the Borderlands. Traditional Japanese sports are, for example, martial in nature. If you've got an already martial culture it is perfectly believable that if you play ball games as a child, you should put those things aside when you become and adult and concentrate on more important things.

sandoz12
05-27-2011, 04:40 AM
Thanks for the answers.

Good points. And what you say about schooling makes sense (and went with my gut instinct). It's just that in that environment I imagine far more people would be illiterate than they appear to be in the WoT. If you look at history before schools became widespread most people were illiterate which then meant they couldn't teach their children etc.

I guess what I am saying is what is surprising in the WoT isn't the lack of schools but the level of literacy both rich and poor which doesn't really add up with the level of technology the culture was at.

Regarding sports - good points about the contests in the Two Rivers. They definitely qualify as sports.
In big cities though I thought there would have been some sporting contest. We see horse racing but I imagine a big city like Caemlyn would have either a north/south or east/west divide which would lend itself to sporting encounters of some kind. Most cultures on earth had some form of sports. But it could have been all taking place in the WoT off-screen and now with the last battle so close sport would be a low priority.

enak101
05-27-2011, 04:42 AM
DOA, she is dead?

I think she could hold most of the female forsaken. She held Nyneave.

looqas
05-27-2011, 04:56 AM
Have you even read the books?

Yes, it has been done, no good for metro, check brandon's quotes.

Who cares? Presumably they are just helicopters or airplanes or something similar, and are subject to the same basic principles. They are not lifted with the power to fly, which is what nynaeve was talking about.

It was a freak accident from an unraveled gateway.

They have been as of lord of chaos, and offscreen even earlier by the seanchan

I have read through the series couple of times, but I forget them it seems quite quickly since I read a lot of other books too, so I have not invested into them so heavily. More like on - off "fan" of sorts. But then again because I can't recall every little detail, or even major plot twists, in the books I do make dumb questions that probably are spelled out in the books. But that's my shame entirely. And no, I don't scour the interview database, WoT wiki, nor have access to anything else than paper copies, but I try to use the search, but using search in the forums is not like using search in the google where the results are filtered rather sophisticatedly instead of matching like in the forum searches. Searching for some rather common words can be very frustrating and yield no results.

And this is a Q&A thread, so I care. The flight height IS irrelevant, but it's question I'm interested in.

About *angreal. I just now realized that ter'angreal also fit in. I meant will angreal and sa'angreal being made again in this age?

looqas
05-27-2011, 05:02 AM
How do isolated country kids such as Rand, Mat and Perrin learn to read and write? Do they have some early schooling before helping out on the farm/apprenticeship full time? Or are they simply taught by their parents.



I just read the below quote from ToM: Partings, and a Meeting chapter during my lunch-break. Mat talks to Setalle Anan about Olver.


"Sure, but I do not like the things they are teaching to him. The boy needs better examples than that lot."
She seemed amused by that for some reason. "I've already begun instructing the child in letters. ..."

Mat let out a relieved sigh. Women were always happy for a chance to educate a boy when he was young. ...


So I think it was parents' job to educate the children.

sandoz12
05-27-2011, 05:18 AM
So I think it was parents' job to educate the children.

I accept this. Just think it surprising that so many did. Because all it would take is some incapable/too lazy to and then you would have a cycle of illiteracy.

Perhaps large amounts of the characters in the WoT are illiterate and we just haven't come across it. To me the it would have felt right if we saw that certain characters (particularly from poorer/rougher upbringings) couldn't read and write.

David Selig
05-27-2011, 05:45 AM
Jordan's explanation about education in Randland:

Education in this world is a very sometime thing. In the Two Rivers, where literacy is valued, parents teach children, and if, say, old Jondyn is known to be knowledgeable about history, parents send their children to him. This education is not as broad as that they might receive in a school, but then, the education given in many schools as late of the 19th Century would hardly stand up to today’s standards. Rhetoric was given as great a weight as mathematics when it wasn’t given more. Modern languages were deplored, and not taught even at university level. Parents teaching children is the general model followed. Sometimes a village might hire a sort of schoolmaster, but this is usually thought to be a waste of money since the parents between them have enough knowledge to teach most subjects to the extent necessary.

Even Suian, the daughter of a poor Tairen fisherman, knew how to read before she came to the Tower (though barely), so apparently basic literacy is pretty universal given that the Tairen commoners are probably the worst treated and poorest in Randland from what've seen.

looqas
05-27-2011, 05:57 AM
Q: Was the taint on saidin a layer of True Power (aka Dark One himself)?

sandoz12
05-27-2011, 06:17 AM
Jordan's explanation about education in Randland:
Even Suian, the daughter of a poor Tairen fisherman, knew how to read before she came to the Tower (though barely), so apparently basic literacy is pretty universal given that the Tairen commoners are probably the worst treated and poorest in Randland from what've seen.

Thanks for that Jordan quote that clarifies things greatly.

hmenick
05-27-2011, 07:52 AM
Got a bunch of ogier based questions that have been bugging me, thought you guys would be the best choice for some answers.

1. What does the book of translation do?

2. Did the ogier create the stedding?

3. If they did create the stedding can they still do so?

4. If they didn't create them who did? Are they naturally occuring?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 08:31 AM
DOA- Dead On Arrival. Useless character.
And so what if she can hold most of the Forsaken? So can probably half the Tower, almost anyone can make a shield, the trouble is catching them.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 08:58 AM
Q: Was the taint on saidin a layer of True Power (aka Dark One himself)?

Apparently not. It is certain they weren't "mixed", though what tptb meant by that is up to interpretation.

Otherwise...no offense intended. The gateway question was actually a good one, I had it myself when I began to find Perrin's storyline exceedingly tedious. Which is of course how I found the answer. The question was put to BS along thought lines similar to yours.

For the rest...I have a good memory, and I was tired and cranky, but ultimately you are right. I could always choose to not answer or to not read your post. This is a questions thread. Ask as you will.

Terez
05-27-2011, 11:43 AM
Berowin.

“We do not try to reach above our station, but skills are honed with time, and this was always nearly a Talent with me, I could hold one of the Forsaken.”
—Berowin on Shielding

She seems to have a Talent for Shielding. The Shield does not break, but rather bends and stretches.

I was wondering what was going on here. Almost a talent, a talent? How far can it go? How would she go shielding Rand?
She could probably shield Rand, yes, aside from his new superpowers. It's very similar to Androl's Talent for making gateways. He shouldn't be able to make one at all - far from it. He can hardly do anything else with the Power, he's so weak. But he can make gateways larger than most Asha'man.


Does having an anreal or sa'angreal help getting out of a shield or can you not access it when shielded to help you.
It's harder to shield someone if they are holding the Power, and of course it would be much more so with an angreal. But you have to be using it when they try to shield you or you're SOL.

Why did Rand not keep the Choeden Kal on him after book 4. Why did he hide them?
He was intimidated by that much Power. It's the same reason he left Callandor in the Stone when he went to the Waste.

Terez
05-27-2011, 12:12 PM
A few questions...
Do we know how Alivia stacks up against Lanfear pre-Finn?
Not exactly. Weaker, but still stronger than Nynaeve, so not that much weaker.

Who was enforcing Ishamael's orders after he died?Carridin's orders were enforced by a Fade, and Liandrin. But Sammael seemed surprised that anyone was still following Ishamael's orders when he talked to Carridin in ACOS. My guess is that there was some sort of system in place for enforcing those orders, but it was badly organized because of the infighting among the Forsaken.

How closely are Morridin's and Shaidar Haran's plans related? It seems superfade was for killing rand in book 2, but ishamael was opposed until three.All indications recently are that they are on the same page.

Also why are there no mention of sports anywhere? Other than sword-fighting?
Aside from the archery and stuff, bowling was mentioned. I think that there are no organized sports for the same reason that the Aes Sedai recruiting system sucks so much; there's no over-arching society, and even within each nation no real organization.

Couple of questions:

Q: Can you tie off a gateway weave?
Not any more. As in, RJ had them tying off gateways earlier, and then he changed it in KOD, apparently because of the metro problem (which Brandon has mentioned in interview). But it was changed rather ungracefully from what I saw, unless the bits about tying them off were removed in later editions.

Q: Do we know how high the AoL flying cars flew?No.

I've always imagined that it was Blade Runner style 1-200m, but I recall of someone saying that they never had seen (presumably impossible) to lift anyone but a couple of meters. Nyn's lifting of Rand and Lan comes to mind particularly. That is if the flying cars did actually use power instead of a mechanics to achieve flight.The technology was developed using the Power, but it is not dependent on the Power to operate, though it seems likely they used the 'standing flows' - like our electricity, but it's the Power - as fuel.

Q: Any hints that *angreal will be made this age?Yes. I think RJ meant us to solve the mystery of why Elayne can't make certain kinds of ter'angreal properly. The correct answer is probably that she needs to link with a man, and for angreal, it probably requires a large circle.

Q: Was the taint on saidin a layer of True Power (aka Dark One himself)?
It was essentially of the same substance, but not exactly the same. Brandon and RJ have commented on this:

Azral Hanan on Twitter - 29 July 2010 4:15 am (http://twitter.com/Azral_Joe/status/19815129573)
Are the taint and the True Power the same?
Brandon - 3:51 pm (http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/19857630947)
No, they are different.

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000 (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/aef502e6ce5b151a)

RJ: The taint and the True Power are both manifestations of the Dark One -- they are the same substance, but those who access it are not destroyed in the same way.

1. What does the book of translation do?
Most likely it will transport the stedding and the Ogier back to the parallel universe from which they came. We don't know how it works, and we also don't know whether the Ogier will have to be inside the stedding to be transported, but Loial's mother is arguing that they should go back now to avoid the Last Battle, and Loial is arguing that they should stay. Either way, they have to go back eventually so that they can return at the proper time the next Turning of the Wheel.

2. Did the ogier create the stedding?

3. If they did create the stedding can they still do so?

4. If they didn't create them who did? Are they naturally occuring?Hopefully the above will explain this well enough. The stedding appear to be areas that are obeying the laws of physics in Ogierland. The land will probably look the same when the Ogier disappear, but it will no longer feel like a stedding.

nameless
05-27-2011, 12:24 PM
One thing to keep in mind about sports is that they didn't really catch on in our own world until the economy developed enough to sustain organized leisure activities. Boxing and wrestling and such have always been popular, but city-wide football teams require having a lot of people with a lot of free time to organize everything. Sports that require big groups didn't really catch on until the late 19th century.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 12:33 PM
I think I answered a few of those already...
Do we know Alivia is weaker? Or merely suspect? Without knowing how much stronger she appeared and how powerful the angreal was, I always thought she was also as strong as a woman could be. And yet every ranking list I have seen puts her at least one level below and sometimes as much as three. Is there any concrete evidence Lanfear is stronger?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 12:43 PM
The thing about berowin and Androl is their Talents bring them above average, but not enough for uniqueness. Androl can make gateways, but probably not substantially bigger than neald's. And as I said before, even though her shield can bend further than others', it is likely that half the tower could hold it as well. The issue is the shielding.

nameless
05-27-2011, 01:17 PM
Yeah, I doubt Berowin would be able to hold Rand after Rand's training with Asmodean. For one thing, he's a good bit stronger than Nynaeve, and for another, shields are less effective against a member of the opposite gender, which is why it takes 6 Aes Sedai to hold a strong man's shield even if he isn't 6 times stronger than them.

Terez
05-27-2011, 01:19 PM
I think I answered a few of those already...
And badly, if I recall. People don't come here to have noobs answer their questions. ;)

Do we know Alivia is weaker? Or merely suspect?We have enough clues to reasonably infer that she's not at the top of the heap. Unlike with Sharina and Lanfear, no one has said anything about her being as strong as it is possible for a woman to be (and there are other clues, such as Nynaeve thinking that maybe some of the Forsaken were stronger, but no one else, etc.). And Lanfear was right, of course - Alivia did have an angreal.

The thing about berowin and Androl is their Talents bring them above average, but not enough for uniqueness. Androl can make gateways, but probably not substantially bigger than neald's. And as I said before, even though her shield can bend further than others', it is likely that half the tower could hold it as well. The issue is the shielding.
Berowin's Talent was noted as being unique:

The Amyrlin sat up, working her shoulders. "You don't know everything yet, do you, child? Not the hundredth part of everything. You did not suspect I could cut you off from the True Source. You can still feel it there, but you can't touch it any more than a fish can touch the moon. When you learn enough to be raised to full sisterhood, no one woman will be able to do that to you. The stronger you become, the more Aes Sedai it will take to shield you against your will. Do you think, now, you want to learn?" Nynaeve pressed her mouth shut in a thin line and stared her in the eye grimly. The Amyrlin sighed. "If you had a hair less potential than you do, child, I would send you to the Mistress of Novices and tell her to keep you the rest of your life. But you will get what you deserve."...just as Androl's has been:

He focused. Making gateways came so much easier to him than other weaves did; he'd never understood why. Though he couldn't break even a small rock apart by channeling, he could make a gateway large enough for a wagon to drive through. Logain had called it impressive; Taim had called it impossible.
And of the two, Taim should know more on the subject.

Before Androl, everyone knew that you had to be a certain strength to make a gateway. There were no exceptions. Just because they don't come away with a net gain against other channelers doesn't mean they aren't unique.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 02:11 PM
Badly...
Ok. Although the answers i gave are more or less the same. But your thread, your rules.

For berowin though...
That early in the series siuan thought many things that have since shown to be false, not to mention that she was describing a slightly different thing. And I think you misunderstood my position. Their situations and Talents may be unique, but neither is particularly useful. Androl may be different, I'm withholding judgement until I see how he stacks up against dreamspikes. But berowin didn't cut nynaeve off while she was already holding the power, she caught her by surprise. Her so called talent lies in the holding of a shield, not the shielding itself, and I'm sure someone like romanda could match her in one and far surpass in the other. As I said, unique does not make one particularly useful.

Your opinions=\=truth

Terez
05-27-2011, 03:12 PM
Badly...
Ok. Although the answers i gave are more or less the same.
Your comment on the True Power and the taint, for example, was wrong (aside from being unsupported). People want to know what's in the books or what RJ and Brandon and Team Jordan said about it, not some random noob's estimation of how things work.

That early in the series siuan thought many things that have since shown to be false
Indeed, but she was familiar enough with Aes Sedai to know what they could do and what they could not do.

Her so called talent lies in the holding of a shield, not the shielding itself, and I'm sure someone like romanda could match her in one and far surpass in the other. ...

Your opinions=\=truth
You answered yourself here, bud. There's nothing in the books to suggest that Romanda or anyone else has a shielding talent like Berowin's, but you think we should believe it because you think it should be possible?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 03:52 PM
Haha. I will have to be more specific next time. His question regarding the taint and TP was answered by my claim that the two powers were never mixed. My answer came from the first quote to posted for it. Precision begets perfection, so I suppose I could have done a better job there. I was hesitant to sound too certain because as i have stated elsewhere, I think the TP goes beyond that which is woven, and so the taint may have been some unknown aspect. Which seems in line with your second quote. Oh well, done is done.

For berowin though, I say again her talent may be unique, but it is not particularly useful to us. Since there is an upper bound of strength, and a minimum of extra strength needed to break through a shield, obviously at some level a woman can hold anyone. I admit I arbitrarily put it at romanda's level, but even if it is as high as Aviendha, berowin becomes unimportant. Not to mention that the shielding itself is still an issue, and berowin would be hopeless there opposing a forsaken.

enak101
05-27-2011, 08:01 PM
Yeah, her talent is unique. Half the tower COULD not hold a forsaken. What angreal did Alivia have? Berowin's is a talent as it differs from a normal shield. Androl's gateway's though, aren't. I don't think of it as a talent. I say it is a 'block' or 'bar' in a way.

Terez
05-27-2011, 08:40 PM
What angreal did Alivia have?
She had Nynaeve's bracelet-and-rings angreal. Nynaeve figured she wouldn't need it since she had the Choedan Kal. And Androl's gateways are a block? How does that even make sense?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 09:12 PM
Maybe she meant Androl is actually quite strong, but has a mental block on everything else. If I remember correctly, the size of a gateway depends on a channeler's absolute strength, but doesn't require all of it, and possibly not much of it. Although he would still need a modicum of power to weave it in the first place and going by Taim's reaction he lacks even that. I do not know. He may very well be unique.

And it doesn't seem like you actually understand my position enak. I will again confess that the line I placed was arbitrary, but only in position, not existence. My reasoning is quite clear. It may be only channelers at nynaeve's strength and above can hold a forsaken. I doubt it, but it may very well be the case. Berowin might be able to hold Morridin himself, but only if she gets it on him while he is not holding the power. The channelers I described could do that too. Perhaps berowin's shield is more efficient, or maybe entirely unique, but for most practical purposes she could only hold a forsaken given to her already cut off. Nynaeve could succeed in cutting them off, and maybe Egwene as well.

A question about the prophecy paitar knew of...
Reading the actual text of the prophecy, it sounds like rand killed the clerk after he went mad, and therefore after the sealing. But as he recalls it Demandred is somehow involved. Am I reading it wrong, or is rand lying, or...?

Also I saw someone saying that Demandred was the weakest male except for asmodeon among the forsaken, citing the bwb. Is this true? I don't have it, so I cannot verify.

Terez
05-27-2011, 10:00 PM
It's quite possibly true that Demandred was only above Asmodean in strength; Brandon implied that they were all very close, so perhaps it's not as big a deal as it seems at first glance.

finnssss
05-27-2011, 10:21 PM
Maybe she meant Androl is actually quite strong, but has a mental block on everything else. If I remember correctly, the size of a gateway depends on a channeler's absolute strength, but doesn't require all of it, and possibly not much of it. Although he would still need a modicum of power to weave it in the first place and going by Taim's reaction he lacks even that. I do not know. He may very well be unique.



Androl's talent with gateway's seems to extend further than simply being able to make bigger ones then should be possible.
In tGS, Flinn implies in Chpt 5 that Androl doesn't have to wait as long to make new gateway's either.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 10:34 PM
I didn't say I believed the mental block theory, I was simply trying to understand it. As I said, withholding judgement on that front.

And I realize that after taking into account skill sets and the fact that the forsaken are all quite powerful anyway rank among the forsaken's power levels means little. I was asking more because I was surprised that it was allegedly stated quite explicitly, and I wondered.

Is there a reason the forsaken prefer fighting in Tel'aran'rhiod? Is it just presumed advantage? Or is it some kind of foreshadowing of the final confrontation?

Did rand travel to tear the first time to tear at least partly by entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, like Egwene and salidar?

Did rand purposely lie to paitar? Why?

enak101
05-28-2011, 01:53 AM
Yeah, the mental block thing was only a thought.
Yeah, it could be something else with not having to wait as long. I'm not saying Berowin's talent is that helpful, just that it's different.

finnssss
05-28-2011, 02:06 AM
Yeah, the mental block thing was only a thought.
Yeah, it could be something else with not having to wait as long. I'm not saying Berowin's talent is that helpful, just that it's different.

At the same time both "Talents" predominantly use Spirit.
Relevant? Maybe.

Terez
05-28-2011, 11:26 AM
Is there a reason the forsaken prefer fighting in Tel'aran'rhiod? Is it just presumed advantage?
The ones that did fight there probably figured they'd have more of an advantage there. But Sammael could have escaped to Tel'aran'rhiod, and he instead escaped to Shadar Logoth.

Did rand travel to tear the first time to tear at least partly by entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, like Egwene and salidar?
No.

Did rand purposely lie to paitar? Why?
About what?

The Unreasoner
05-28-2011, 12:24 PM
I guess he might not have lied. But I don't really want to believe he's nuts, and those seem to be the only possible reasons for his answer to paitar.

As for the no to Tel'aran'rhiod traveling, is this certain? Or just 99% accurate and the logical choice? I always thought it would explain both Perrin and Egwene seeing him, and to some extent his speed. I know rand has a reflection, but not all the time.

Also I have to say thanks for putting this together, I always think of questions during rereads. And thanks for the "rep". I had no idea I even had any until yesterday, although looking through the archives seems to imply quite strongly that catching up to most of you guys is out of the question. How much do I need to start a poll?

Terez
05-28-2011, 01:04 PM
As for the no to Tel'aran'rhiod traveling, is this certain? Or just 99% accurate and the logical choice?
I asked Brandon about it and Brandon doesn't believe he went there in the flesh; he believes that there is a unique phenomenon with Rand where he sometimes touches Tel'aran'rhiod while in the real world. He has a reflection there sometimes, like a wolf does. Which makes him more wolfy than Perrin. ;)

How much do I need to start a poll?I believe you have to be an Elder to start polls.

The Unreasoner
05-28-2011, 02:01 PM
Aha. Wolfbrothers are one thing, shdowkillers another. Still think its Ituralde or lan though, but my issues with rand were never really the lack of a wolf connection. Certainly as dark prophecies, the wolf could represent anything that likes to kill Trollocs.

sandoz12
05-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Do we know if it's possible for an Ogier to be a darkfriend?

Marie Curie 7
05-28-2011, 09:17 PM
Do we know if it's possible for an Ogier to be a darkfriend?

This is one that is easy to find in the interview database - the Ogier category isn't very long, and you can also search with Cntl-F.

Anyway, yeah, it is possible. RJ did not confirm that there are currently Ogier darkfriends, though.


Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q: Why can't Ogier channel the One Power?
RJ: Why can't fish sing? Why can't sparrows do the tango? Why can't I figure my own income tax? I'd really like to know the answer to that last one!

Q: Can they be Darkfriends?
RJ: Of course.

sandoz12
05-28-2011, 09:33 PM
Thanks. In future will look in interview database before asking.

Marie Curie 7
05-28-2011, 10:39 PM
Thanks. In future will look in interview database before asking.

That wasn't exactly the point. As per the title, this is an 'ask anything' thread. But with all the resources available to us as WoT fans, I also feel that it's important to indicate how answers to some of these questions can be pretty easily found. To me, it's not only about sharing knowledge, but also about sharing methods and resources.

Lightning
05-29-2011, 02:23 AM
Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.

This from an RJ quote Terez put up in the first page of this thread.

And it makes me wonder about the mark that was put on Alviarin's forehead. I would assume that traditionally to become a 'chosen' one would have to travel to SG and all the way down the hole to be marked. But in this case the DO is strong enough to reach out and mark Alviarin through SH.

It was always a question for me what that marking meant, and this quote seems to suggest an intriguing possibility. But even Alviarin herself didn't know what the mark meant. So I'm wondering if the DO was concerned over losing so many of the forsaken that he decided to promote new candidates? But why would he not tell her? And why would he give her privileges (controlling fades and whatnot) without taking more strict vows and stuff?

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2011, 05:41 AM
This from an RJ quote Terez put up in the first page of this thread.

And it makes me wonder about the mark that was put on Alviarin's forehead. I would assume that traditionally to become a 'chosen' one would have to travel to SG and all the way down the hole to be marked. But in this case the DO is strong enough to reach out and mark Alviarin through SH.

It was always a question for me what that marking meant, and this quote seems to suggest an intriguing possibility. But even Alviarin herself didn't know what the mark meant. So I'm wondering if the DO was concerned over losing so many of the forsaken that he decided to promote new candidates? But why would he not tell her? And why would he give her privileges (controlling fades and whatnot) without taking more strict vows and stuff?

It's also in the interview database that Alviarin's mark is slightly different from the Chosen mark - sort of one level below (which I guess might be Dreadlord):
Week 2 Question: Is the mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran the same as that the Forsaken received from the Dark One? If so, is she now a Forsaken, or some sort of lesser Chosen?

Robert Jordan Answers: The mark that Alviarin received from Shaidar Haran was not the same as that given to the Forsaken, though it shares one function: Shadowspawn will recognize her as belonging to the Dark One. They will not obey her as they will the Forsaken, however, but she doesn't have to worry about one trying to kill her, either. She is not any sort of lesser Chosen. You might think of it more like the tattoo some people get put inside the ear of their dog, an identification so others will know who the dog belongs to as soon as they see it.

sandoz12
05-29-2011, 08:16 AM
That wasn't exactly the point. As per the title, this is an 'ask anything' thread. But with all the resources available to us as WoT fans, I also feel that it's important to indicate how answers to some of these questions can be pretty easily found. To me, it's not only about sharing knowledge, but also about sharing methods and resources.

Yeah well you definitely helped with that. I wouldn't have thought to find the answer with the method you described and now know that I can try that in future. So thanks again.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2011, 08:41 AM
A question about the prophecy paitar knew of...
Reading the actual text of the prophecy, it sounds like rand killed the clerk after he went mad, and therefore after the sealing. But as he recalls it Demandred is somehow involved. Am I reading it wrong, or is rand lying, or...?I think that you are reading it wrong.
It seems to me that Rand killed her in a "power gone wild" type incident. He and Demandred were blasting away at each other, LTT got over enthusiastic and struck at the wrong place, and as a result Tellindal Tirraso died. Just a case of friendly fire, really, but one which LTT/Rand thinks could have been prevented, if he had only been a bit more careful.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 12:26 PM
"Darkness that came the day after the light" doesn't refer to the taint and counterstroke?

finnssss
05-29-2011, 01:09 PM
"Darkness that came the day after the light" doesn't refer to the taint and counterstroke?


It can't be, Demandred would of been already sealed if that were the case.

Just spit ballin' here but I'm pretty sure the "light" is referring to LTT being pronounced The Dragon and the "Darkness" being Demandred and his 81 turning to the Shadow and attacking LTT right after that pronouncement.

As I understand it, Demandred and LTT were both vying to be proclaimed The Dragon. Demandred garnered the support of 81, LTT garnered 113 (The Hundred Companions).
This was the final straw for Demandred.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 02:02 PM
Your reason for why it can't be is sort of my point.
Either:
Demandred wasn't fully bound

The prophecy was fake, so either paitar is up to something or someone is up to something with him

Rand was lying or is insane

All seem worrisome. Has Brandon confirmed the prophecy's legitimacy and rand's answer's accuracy?

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 02:03 PM
Also I am pretty sure that the 113 were gathered later

Terez
05-29-2011, 02:35 PM
This is what happens when noobs answer each other's questions. Demandred was not bound yet, he was never competing to be 'the Dragon', and we have no idea what the 'day after the light' means; anything we can say is speculation only. It probably just means they had won a great victory the day before.

finnssss
05-29-2011, 03:09 PM
Also I am pretty sure that the 113 were gathered later

The Hundred Companions were formed well before the Stike at SG.

tGS chapt 1, LTT is "talking" to Rand, he states that after the women refused, that left him with only the Hundred Companions to carry out his plan.
Clearly The Hundred Companions were formed before LTT even proposed his plan.

Terez
05-29-2011, 03:13 PM
No, they weren't. They were formed when Lews Therin and Latra Posae first began to butt heads over their respective plans, which was long before the Fateful Concord:

A group of powerful young male Aes Sedai, vocal to the point of disrupting meetings at the Hall of the Servants, had supported Lews Therin Telamon during the struggle with Latra Posae. This group was popularly called the Hundred Companions, though they actually numbered 113 at this point. With the Hundred Companions, and a force of some ten thousand warmen, Lews Therin Telamon launched the planned attack on the bore.

finnssss
05-29-2011, 03:41 PM
No, they weren't. They were formed when Lews Therin and Latra Posae first began to butt heads over their respective plans, which was long before the Fateful Concord:

Fair enough but they were formed before the actual Strike so what I stated was not completely inaccurate.
They were formed because of the plan then, I apologize.

Also, Demandred, who was, by all accounts, second only to LTT himself, turning to the Shadow with 81 more channelers at the same time be viewed as a dark day indeed.
Add to that, Paitar's fortelling and Rand's account of the events pertaining to that foretelling, it might still be speculation but it's at least educated speculation with some proof.


...and you can lay off on the name calling, there's absolutely no need for it, especially in a thread, you yourself said there are no dumb questions.

Thanks

Terez
05-29-2011, 03:56 PM
There are, however, dumb answers. ;)

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 04:26 PM
Interesting opinions. I thought it was worth looking into, especially when Brandon mentioned paitar as a possible candidate for Demandred, I thought he might have been projecting. Not that I have seen any theories claiming this, and based on the criteria we have he cannot be, but Brandon's assuming we connected the two seemed interesting.

The SaSG seems pretty clear on the timing of the formation of the Hundred companions, and I doubt anyone would argue they were formed just on the way to SG, so I would say you are mostly wrong.

Noobs you may call us terez, but you are mistaken in thinking Demandred didn't compete for the title dragon. One of the forsaken thinks of it, I'm trying to find the quote.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 05:14 PM
He had had the misfortune to be born one day after Lews Therin Telamon, who would become the Dragon, while Barid Bel Medar, as he was then, spent years almost matching Lews Therin’s accomplishments, not quite matching Lews Therin’s fame. Without Lews Therin, he would have been the most acclaimed man of the Age. Had he been appointed to lead instead of the man he considered his intellectual inferior, an overcautious fool who too often managed to scrape up luck, would he stand here today?

From mesaana in loc

Seems indicative. Maybe not definite, but the dragon being the title of the military leader for the light seems reasonable. There may be a more explicit quote somewhere.

Terez
05-29-2011, 08:39 PM
Noobs you may call us terez, but you are mistaken in thinking Demandred didn't compete for the title dragon.
No, I am not mistaken.

One of the forsaken thinks of it, I'm trying to find the quote.
You won't find it. The quotes you gave are common knowledge and don't have anything to do with what you claimed. 'Dragon' was not a title but rather a name given to Lews Therin by the people, much like the Forsaken were given their names.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Compelling counter-argument.
While I recognize you have put far more time into studying wot, your word alone does not constitute evidence. You may even be right. Things like this are just an idle amusement, I am far more interested in the metaphysics and the military storylines. In any case I have seen only one quote supporting your position, something about the people giving him the title because of his effectiveness at holding back the shadow. As lews therin and Demandred were both fighting effectively and presumably less therein was chosen by someone, there is no reason both positions cannot be true. Lews therin was given the title by the people when he was chosen to lead (by the people), the two may be one and the same. Or not. I doubt anyone will be able to find concrete evidence one way or another, though extremists willikely believe that they have.
The whole issue began with someone completely misunderstanding my question though, and given their lack of evidence and unusual view of logic I expect the whole issue will blow away soon.

Weird Harold
05-29-2011, 09:54 PM
... but the dragon being the title of the military leader for the light seems reasonable. ...

At the onset of the war, the people had turned to the Aes Sedai to defend and guide them. The man who sat in the High Seat of the Hall of the Servants at the time was Lews Therin Telamon, Lord of the Morning, who came to be known as the Dragon. The most powerful man of his time, he was chosen to lead the Ogier (who proved themselves to be as fierce in war as they had been gifted with songs in peace), the human warmen armed with new technology, and the Aes Sedai in the fight to prevent the Dark One from breaking free of his prison. Their idyllic peace and innocence had already been taken. Now, under the Dragon, they struggled to save what was left from ultimate destruction.

Only the Da’shain Aiel, who served the Aes Sedai and the Lord Dragon who led them, remained completely apart from the fighting. Their covenant, the Way of the Leaf, prevented them from taking up arms even in the face of death. The Aes Sedai they served zealously protected them and their covenant, while accepting their service in all non-military matters. In many ways the Aiel represented to them the best of all that had been lost when the Bore was opened. Perhaps it was this mutual service and protection under Lews Therin that led to the Da’shain being called the People of the Dragon.

The BWB suggests that the name "dragon" was a personal appellation gained before being selcted as military commander and not a military title.

Comments by RJ regardinging the nature of the Dragon Soul are also inconsistent with it being a mundane title rather than a metaphysical archetype. LTT was Born the Dragon, just as surely as Rand was born The Dragon Reborn.

finnssss
05-29-2011, 10:11 PM
The BWB suggests that the name "dragon" was a personal appellation gained before being selcted as military commander and not a military title.

Comments by RJ regardinging the nature of the Dragon Soul are also inconsistent with it being a mundane title rather than a metaphysical archetype. LTT was Born the Dragon, just as surely as Rand was born The Dragon Reborn.

From our point of view, yes, obviously it's more cut and dry.
However, it's not always about what we knew but what the characters believe. It does not seem to be the point of view taken by most of the Forsaken nor does it seem to be the point of view taken by Taim when we first met him.
I have no doubt that Demandred believes that without LTT's luck, he would of been the Dragon, something supported by Messana's POV in LoC, regardless of what the reality is.
Taim was no different, he believes or at least believed that if things had of unfolded just a little differently, he would of somehow met all the criteria to be the Dragon reborn.

As Asmo pointed out in tFoH, how many times has something Moiraine said right out and believed to be true been proven not to be?

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 10:46 PM
He came to be known as the dragon, and became the military leader. My position is whatever the answer, I do not think we currently have the info. It is interesting that when this was brought up, military leader would have worked just as well, and no controversy. Strongly suggests =\=proves. And just because the dragon was predetermined, does not mean he wasn't also given the title. He could have been predetermined to be the one chosen as the dragon.

frenchie
05-29-2011, 10:53 PM
Nothing in the books, BWB or quotes from RJ, BS, or Maria indicate that the title of Military Leader was designated "The Dragon". All incations are that LTT gained the name, like his 3rd name, through service to the Light. And unlike the Forsaken, he resented the name, due to it's implications.

Rand al'Fain
05-29-2011, 10:58 PM
Just my 2 cents, but when you think "Dragon" as part of a title, that usually leads one to believe that the person was involved in warfare, and since the War of Power was the first actual war in who knows how many years, it does lend some credance to what the Unreasoner is saying. You do not get called "The Dragon" during times of peace.

I do have a question, or rather a couple of related ones.
1. Did dragons ever exist in the world of WOT?
If not, then my second one is;
2. How did the people come up with the name "dragon" to bestow upon LTT? Not to mention his banner.

frenchie
05-29-2011, 11:04 PM
These people had no concept of war, but they have a title lined up for the War Leader? No, it was peoples memories of storied Dragons that caused them to name LTT the Dragon.

The Unreasoner
05-30-2011, 12:27 AM
They could have just as easily called him the lion, or the bear or whatever. Again, I do not think we have the evidence to definitively say no.

Anyway that wasn't really my point. If the soul that is reborn through the ages to save mankind from the shadow is the dragon, great. The dragon reborn gains the name from fulfilling prophecies and being the prophesised reincarnation of the previous dragon. But in the second age, not only did they not know of the existence of the soul, they also had no name for it. So their naming ltt the dragon was original. And if dragon was a military title, why not name the soul after it?

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2011, 03:44 AM
From our point of view, yes, obviously it's more cut and dry.
However, it's not always about what we knew but what the characters believe. It does not seem to be the point of view taken by most of the Forsaken nor does it seem to be the point of view taken by Taim when we first met him.
I have no doubt that Demandred believes that without LTT's luck, he would of been the Dragon, something supported by Messana's POV in LoC, regardless of what the reality is.He believes that he would (should) have been the leader. But that doesn't mean that he believes that he should have been the Dragon.

Compare it to Great Britain in the 1980s: a number of people there were vying for the position of leader of the country, one of them, Margaret Thatcher, called the Iron Lady, got it. If another* had won the elections, then he would have been Prime Minister, but he wouldn't have been the Iron Lady.

* Can't remember which pillock was Labour leader at the time. The LibDems were theoretically also in the running, of course.

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2011, 04:09 AM
* Can't remember which pillock was Labour leader at the time. The LibDems were theoretically also in the running, of course.

In 1979 when Thatcher was elected? I think not. The LibDems didn't come into existence until 1988 as a result of a merger of two other parties.

...what? No, I don't have anything to contribute to the discussion. Except maybe this, like the Rand's superpowers thing, should be move to a seperate thread.

Daekyras
05-30-2011, 08:37 AM
No stupid Questions?

Ahem!

If the True Source provides the One Power and the Dark One provides the True Power wouldn't that somehow imply the the Dark one could be called the One Source?

True Source-----> One Power

One Source------> True Power?

Thank you.

Terez
05-30-2011, 08:37 AM
While I recognize you have put far more time into studying wot, your word alone does not constitute evidence.
It constitutes evidence far more than your word does. Instead of spamming the thread with your complaints - any further such posts will be deleted - find the quote or shut up about it.

Terez
05-30-2011, 09:53 AM
No stupid Questions?

Ahem!

If the True Source provides the One Power and the Dark One provides the True Power wouldn't that somehow imply the the Dark one could be called the One Source?
No.

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2011, 10:03 AM
No.

You could say the True Power has only one source, though. Unlike the OP which can be put into Wells.

Marie Curie 7
05-30-2011, 10:40 AM
Just my 2 cents, but when you think "Dragon" as part of a title, that usually leads one to believe that the person was involved in warfare, and since the War of Power was the first actual war in who knows how many years, it does lend some credance to what the Unreasoner is saying. You do not get called "The Dragon" during times of peace.

I do have a question, or rather a couple of related ones.
1. Did dragons ever exist in the world of WOT?
If not, then my second one is;
2. How did the people come up with the name "dragon" to bestow upon LTT? Not to mention his banner.

There are no dragons. There was an association made by the people between the creature shown on Lews Therin's banner and the name "dragon":

Netherlands tour, Dromen and Demonen chat - 6 April 2001

Lowlander: Are there any dragons (like real dragons (=animals)) in Rand's world? If not where did they get the idea of dragons?

RJ: There are no animal dragons of any kind in this world. The people speak of a man called the Dragon. They know that the banner that has a certain creature on it was the banner of this man and they have taken to calling this creature the dragon. To them it is a simple association with the name of this man.


They could have just as easily called him the lion, or the bear or whatever. Again, I do not think we have the evidence to definitively say no.

Anyway that wasn't really my point. If the soul that is reborn through the ages to save mankind from the shadow is the dragon, great. The dragon reborn gains the name from fulfilling prophecies and being the prophesised reincarnation of the previous dragon. But in the second age, not only did they not know of the existence of the soul, they also had no name for it. So their naming ltt the dragon was original. And if dragon was a military title, why not name the soul after it?

See quote above.

Rand al'Fain
05-30-2011, 12:18 PM
That partly answers my question, but there is still the matter of the origin of the creature on the banner and the "why" people began caling LTT the Dragon (wanted or not).

Weiramon
05-30-2011, 03:59 PM
Burn me, the why is obvious - because any discussion of what he is called would drag . . .

oh, never mind.

Sarevok
05-30-2011, 05:04 PM
That partly answers my question, but there is still the matter of the origin of the creature on the banner and the "why" people began caling LTT the Dragon (wanted or not).

I don't believe it's ever mentioned in the book.
However, since it's supposed to be a past/future earth, it may come from dragon myths in our own Age that made it into the Age of Legends.

Zombie Sammael
05-31-2011, 02:54 AM
I have a question - well, it's really two questions, but I'll get to that when it's answered, I think:

When exactly did the Aiel move into the Waste?

Daekyras
05-31-2011, 07:34 AM
No.

But....but...Awwwww.;)

Terez
05-31-2011, 11:09 AM
I have a question - well, it's really two questions, but I'll get to that when it's answered, I think:

When exactly did the Aiel move into the Waste?
Not long after the Breaking ended; they wandered around for a few hundred years before that. Specifically, c. 80 AB. The Aes Sedai had already announced their plan to build Tar Valon but apparently hadn't started building it yet.

Zombie Sammael
05-31-2011, 11:14 AM
Not long after the Breaking ended; they wandered around for a few hundred years before that. Specifically, c. 80 AB. The Aes Sedai had already announced their plan to build Tar Valon but apparently hadn't started building it yet.

Okay, so the second question: that would mean the scene in the animus where Rand's ancestor meets the AS in Rhuidean was simply written before RJ did the switch to Oath Rod-caused Agelessness, or is at actually set after the adoption of the first oath?

Weird Harold
05-31-2011, 11:26 AM
Okay, so the second question: that would mean the scene in the animus where Rand's ancestor meets the AS in Rhuidean was simply written before RJ did the switch to Oath Rod-caused Agelessness, or is at actually set after the adoption of the first oath?
Not necessarily. Rand's expectations of what a very old Aes Sedai should look like probably affected how he perceived them. Also, the Oath Rod isn't the only thing that produces an "ageless look;" many denizen's of arid climates acquire the same sort of "multiple facelifts" kind of agelessness that the Oath Rod causes.

GonzoTheGreat
05-31-2011, 11:43 AM
Two possibilities: it may have happened before all three Oaths were routinely sworn, or those AS may not have been linked to the White Tower at all. Even during Hawkwing's time there were still AS in Seanchan, and we don't know when the last clusters in other parts of the world died out. All we know is that the WT tried very hard to stamp out rival AS in Randland.

Terez
05-31-2011, 12:10 PM
But I think he was saying that the problem is that they DO have the ageless face, not that they do not. In any case, there's no answer to that question. Start a thread about it if you like.

GonzoTheGreat
05-31-2011, 12:24 PM
Rhuidean was built (well, finished, as far it was, anyway) a long time after the move into the Waste. When the Aiel first moved there, the non-violent ones were still a solid majority.

Terez
05-31-2011, 12:30 PM
Rhuidean was built (well, finished, as far it was, anyway) a long time after the move into the Waste.
That depends on your definition of 'a long time'; it could have been as early as 200 AB, about a century after the Aiel moved into the Waste.

When the Aiel first moved there, the non-violent ones were still a solid majority.
That's not entirely clear. The last time a comparison was made, they were still in the wetlands.

sartho
05-31-2011, 05:46 PM
Hey everyone. I have a question, and I haven't found it through searching, if it's on here let me know.

How does Logain, or any male channeler or false dragon, learn how to channel Saidin without burning themselves out?

We know that Rand had trouble even touching the source consistantly until asmo taught him.

frenchie
05-31-2011, 05:59 PM
The same way wilders do. Trial and error. And the stats for those who die in learning are the same as well.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 04:46 AM
I have another one (yes, this is going to keep happening as I get deeper into the series and come up with stuff I haven't had answered on previous read-throughs or seen mentioned in the various resources): what exactly is Slayer's connection to the Tower of Ghenjei, and why was he entering it in TAR?

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2011, 06:11 AM
Slayer may not have entered it at all. It is possible that there he left TAR and went back to the real world. This would give Perrin the idea that he had entered the TOG, and as a result, the *finns might kill Perrin when he entered the tower in an attempt at pursuit.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 06:30 AM
Slayer may not have entered it at all. It is possible that there he left TAR and went back to the real world. This would give Perrin the idea that he had entered the TOG, and as a result, the *finns might kill Perrin when he entered the tower in an attempt at pursuit.

So it was just a trap? That seems... lame. It also seems like a really clumsy way for RJ to reintroduce the Tower of Ghenjei and have it explained what it is - in a storyline totally unrelated to it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2011, 07:12 AM
Actually, the TOG was introduced earlier, when Rand and Mat floated past it on Domon's ship. And that scene also introduced Birgitte as someone who has a tendency to take big risks when it is necessary for her sense of justice. On top of that, it introduced TAR as the HOTH Hiding Place. And as a bonus, it showed that the wolves couldn't see the HOTH there.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 07:20 AM
Actually, the TOG was introduced earlier, when Rand and Mat floated past it on Domon's ship. And that scene also introduced Birgitte as someone who has a tendency to take big risks when it is necessary for her sense of justice. On top of that, it introduced TAR as the HOTH Hiding Place. And as a bonus, it showed that the wolves couldn't see the HOTH there.

As I said - reintroduce the TOG. As an introduction for the HOTH, that scene is also pretty terrible. It doesn't tell us that Birgitte is Birgitte (at first I was wondering if it was Lanfear again), or that she's a Hero - it just gives vague hints. Unless it serves some other purpose setting up a link between Slayer and the TOG, there's something odd and clunky about that entire scene that just doesn't match the tone of the rest of the series.

sartho
06-01-2011, 09:43 AM
Ok. I got another one.

I just finished EotW on my re-read, and I was wondering if Rand Traveled at the Eye?

If so, was it like what LTT or Ish did during the prologue? Becuase it didn't sound like normal traveling.

Tamyrlin
06-01-2011, 09:51 AM
As I said - reintroduce the TOG. As an introduction for the HOTH, that scene is also pretty terrible. It doesn't tell us that Birgitte is Birgitte (at first I was wondering if it was Lanfear again), or that she's a Hero - it just gives vague hints. Unless it serves some other purpose setting up a link between Slayer and the TOG, there's something odd and clunky about that entire scene that just doesn't match the tone of the rest of the series.

From everything we have learned about entering the Finn worlds in T'A'R, it seems very likely that it was a trap. It does beg the question whether or not Slayer will attempt this same trap with Perrin in the final book. Will Perrin enter the ToG and will they fight in the Crossroads in T'A'R? I think that would give this scene meaning, now that Perrin has become much more experienced.

Weird Harold
06-01-2011, 11:46 AM
Unless it serves some other purpose setting up a link between Slayer and the TOG, there's something odd and clunky about that entire scene that just doesn't match the tone of the rest of the series.

I think it matches the tone of the rest of the series perfectly. Oneof the things that I like most about the WOT series is that the mysteries and plot elements aren't introduced or solved with "reward poster" blocks of narrative. Slayer's escape at the Tower of Ghenjei in the Wolf Dream/T'A'R is only a very small part of several mysteries/plotlines.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2011, 12:46 PM
How exactly did olver win at snakes and foxes? It seems the easiest way to prove impossibility would be to assume perfect rolls in an experimental game, defeat would prove impossibility.

Am I supposed to believe no one did this?

This leaves me with only two explanations:

Talmanes was right, they counted wrong. (lame)

Olver's dad put a flaw into the board that was easily overlooked but made the game possible, if unlikely (cool, but unlikely)

Do we have an answer? Not a well supported theory, an answer.

Terez
06-01-2011, 12:51 PM
It's hard to say for sure, since it's definitely possible that they miscounted, but the timing is just too perfect. I tend to believe it was something like the experience with Comar's weighted dice. In fact, Mat never tossed the dice when they played Snakes and Foxes, because he suspected something like that might happen.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2011, 01:17 PM
I thought of the luck thing with mat, but even with perfect luck (and so perfect rolls) impossible is impossible. that is why i hypothesized the "perfect game" proof. I suppose it may very well be the case that no one bothered to test the theory of impossibility, after all the books are full of instances where failure to challenge a belief leads to negative outcomes and yet the people accept anyway.

of course maybe he won because the general breakdown of the pattern and reality somehow rendered the game possible to win. i think this may be one of the mysteries that was not intended to be resolved.

anyway, olver is well on the way to becoming a hero of the ages to come. trained to be a perfect soldier, fascinated by adventure, and already doing impossible feats? noal will be but a footnote in the legend of olver.

Rand al'Fain
06-01-2011, 05:28 PM
Okay, another question, why are so many people fixated on the Rand/Moridin merger and the bodyswap theories? Are there any quotes from Sanderson or RJ saying anything about these?

I know there have been some weird things in the WOT, like Briggitte being ripped out of TAR and Rand's and Moridin's balefire touching, but bodyswapping and mergers (physical, spiritual, or mental) is just REALLY out there for me. With the merger, that's one less soul, an important one at that, (if what we have read is true about Moridin and Rand duking it out through the ages) that can be spun out. And bodyswapping, well, where does that come from?

Terez
06-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Okay, another question, why are so many people fixated on the Rand/Moridin merger and the bodyswap theories?
I'm not into the bodyswap theory obviously, but the merge is going to happen. Min predicted it:

She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."

"I’m grinning because you’ve given me very good news," he said, touching her cheek. The other man had to be Lews Therin. I’m not just insane and hearing voices, he thought, jubilant. One lived and one died, but he had known for a long time that he was going to die. At least he was not mad. Or not as far mad as he had feared. There was still the temper he could barely control.Some still insist on believing that it refers to Lews Therin, despite the fact that Lews Therin was never 'another man', and despite the fact that he didn't die at all in TGS 50; Lews Therin is more solidly a part of Rand than he ever has been, since Rand accepts it now and his mind is warded from the taint. Also, the two bolded words are important:

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse…

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

If you don’t know, how do you expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were … touching … the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too.
Rand turned about in one spot, staring. Staring at his own image thrown back at him a thousandfold. Ten thousandfold. Above was blackness, and blackness below, but all around him stood mirrors, mirrors set at every angle, mirrors as far as he could see, all showing him, crouched and turning, staring wide-eyed and frightened.

A red blur drifted across the mirrors. He spun, trying to catch it, but in every mirror it drifted behind his own image and vanished. Then it was back again, but not as a blur. Ba'alzamon strode across the mirrors, ten thousand Ba'alzamons, searching, crossing and re-crossing the silvery mirrors.

He found himself staring at the reflection of his own face, pale and shivering in the knife-edge cold. Ba'alzamon's image grew behind his, staring at him; not seeing, but staring still. In every mirror, the flames of Ba'alzamon's face raged behind him, enveloping, consuming, merging. He wanted to scream, but his throat was frozen. There was only one face in those endless mirrors. His own face. Ba'alzamon's face. One face.I know there have been some weird things in the WOT, like Briggitte being ripped out of TAR and Rand's and Moridin's balefire touching, but bodyswapping and mergers (physical, spiritual, or mental) is just REALLY out there for me. With the merger, that's one less soul, an important one at that, (if what we have read is true about Moridin and Rand duking it out through the ages) that can be spun out. And bodyswapping, well, where does that come from?As to the latter question, it comes from the idea that Rand will need a new body if he's going to survive the Last Battle as the Aelfinn promised. Some also think Moridin's body provides a nice incognito aspect. IMO none of that is needed. But whether or not you find the 'merge' thing to be 'weird', it's going to happen, and IMO that's why Rand has to die.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2011, 08:47 PM
Okay, another question, why are so many people fixated on the Rand/Moridin merger and the bodyswap theories? Are there any quotes from Sanderson or RJ saying anything about these?

I know there have been some weird things in the WOT, like Briggitte being ripped out of TAR and Rand's and Moridin's balefire touching, but bodyswapping and mergers (physical, spiritual, or mental) is just REALLY out there for me. With the merger, that's one less soul, an important one at that, (if what we have read is true about Moridin and Rand duking it out through the ages) that can be spun out. And bodyswapping, well, where does that come from?

I don't know if this merger will result in a permanent end to Morridin's soul. If it does, it may be key to the final victory of the light, I understand the Dark One as a force of evil and opposition, but one that needs agents within the pattern to channel it. The TP is a highly potent incarnation availible only to channelers, but there are lesser forms availible.

One other note:
The merger min saw suggests one death. Aviendha's vision seems to say Morridin's body is the one still around, but I think the "death" is the person of Morridin, not the body of Rand.

If this is indeed the merger. It may not involve Morridin at all, though there is certainly evidence for it. I think this is the one foreseen. But strong evidence and my opinion alone are of course not proof. If this theory is displeasing to you, consider alternative interpretations of Min's vision.

Terez
06-01-2011, 09:14 PM
Aviendha's vision seems to say Morridin's body is the one still around
I think that the dark-haired kid is more likely to be a result of the bond that resurrects him; Moridin is tall and wouldn't explain the petite features (though neither necessarily needs an explanation). Also, there are no alternate interpretations of Min's viewing, unless one ignores the facts altogether.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2011, 11:11 PM
I didn't say alternate good ideas. Although until it happens, these are all theories, and all we know is that there will be a merger, and that there is much foreshadowing that it will be with Morridin. Believing, suspecting...this is not knowing. A .00000001% chance isn't zero. Someone wins the lottery.

Terez
06-02-2011, 12:57 AM
It's a pretty meaningless distinction when it comes to things like this.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 01:20 AM
Haha. The losers of the lottery no doubt say something similar. Although I think it will be Morridin, and I have bought my ticket, my first loyalties are to free speech and the fundamentals of pure logic.

Terez
06-02-2011, 01:35 AM
What has free speech got to do with it? Anyone can spout whatever opinions they want, but that doesn't make them logical.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 02:06 AM
Maybe nothing. But censorship will kill many ideas, and maybe one of them is a winner.

I was just mentioning the two things I will always support.

sartho
06-02-2011, 09:39 AM
I guess my previous question got a little lost in the debate, and that's cool, I kinda forgot about it aw well. lol

The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?

I reposted this question because I have another one as well.

I've searched for all references of the OP, and I don't think I've seen this asked here, but how do you this the first channelers learned to channel? Do you think they had some kind of mental discipline to help them, like the void and the flower, or were they all like wilders, eventually learning how to do it on their own?

Sorry if this question is way out there, but it's something that has been bugging me, because many males in the book already know the flame and void, and the AS teach novices about the flower technique.

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2011, 09:49 AM
I guess my previous question got a little lost in the debate, and that's cool, I kinda forgot about it aw well. lol

The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?

I reposted this question because I have another one as well.

I've searched for all references of the OP, and I don't think I've seen this asked here, but how do you this the first channelers learned to channel? Do you think they had some kind of mental discipline to help them, like the void and the flower, or were they all like wilders, eventually learning how to do it on their own?

Sorry if this question is way out there, but it's something that has been bugging me, because many males in the book already know the flame and void, and the AS teach novices about the flower technique.

We know from the glossary to "From The Two Rivers" that it's possible there was one individual who was "the first" to learn to channel. Presumably there would have been a high number of wilders when people first started channeling, but he would have found and taught some, and his pupils would find and teach some, etc.

Davian93
06-02-2011, 10:57 AM
Sorry if this question is way out there, but it's something that has been bugging me, because many males in the book already know the flame and void, and the AS teach novices about the flower technique.

You have to remember that its a well known concentration trick used by many elite fighters in Randland so its probably been around a very long time regardless of its usefulness in Channeling. Lan, for example as well as Tam both use it to help with the sword.

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2011, 11:36 AM
You have to remember that its a well known concentration trick used by many elite fighters in Randland so its probably been around a very long time regardless of its usefulness in Channeling. Lan, for example as well as Tam both use it to help with the sword.

This has just popped into my head, and I think I know the answer, but do any female characters, e.g. Birgitte, ever use it?

Terez
06-02-2011, 01:47 PM
The posts about Skimming have been copied or moved to a new thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5590); that one might go on for a while. (I might have some things to say about it in a little bit.)

Rand al'Fain
06-02-2011, 01:54 PM
This has just popped into my head, and I think I know the answer, but do any female characters, e.g. Birgitte, ever use it?
Apparently not for channeling, as they do something somewhat similar, but with a flower opening it's petals. As for Brigitte, I don't believe it has ever been said unless there is a quote about it, but it seems to be more for swordsmanship and channeling (men) than anything else.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 01:59 PM
Since my post addressed both topics, it was moved. But it is strongly implied that Lanfear knows of the void (The Oneness) and uses it.

Rand al'Fain
06-02-2011, 03:36 PM
Since my post addressed both topics, it was moved. But it is strongly implied that Lanfear knows of the void (The Oneness) and uses it.
She knows of it, but she also came from an Age where male and female channeling went hand in hand with eachother. It is never actually implied that she uses the Oneness. But it should not be a surprise that she knows of it.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 06:36 PM
I always assumed that the flower and the flame were essentially the same. The goal is the oneness/void

Rand al'Fain
06-02-2011, 06:46 PM
I always assumed that the flower and the flame were essentially the same. The goal is the oneness/void
I've always seen it as;
The flower-open yourself up and let Saidar flow through you.
Flame and the Void-You ignore everything but the flame, you shut yourself off from everything else.

Basically, like everything else with male and female channelers, similar, yet opposite.

Marie Curie 7
06-02-2011, 09:46 PM
I guess my previous question got a little lost in the debate, and that's cool, I kinda forgot about it aw well. lol

The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?

The discussion of what was going on at the Eye of the World is on-going in another thread. However, part of this hasn't been explained:

Ishamael used the True Power to Travel in the Prologue of TEotW. That's why it appeared different than the normal method of Traveling. Traveling with the True Power is what produces the shimmering effect. Lews Therin, on the other hand, Traveled using the One Power.

Netherlands tour 8 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

KuraFire asked about the prologue of The Eye of the World, where Ishamael Traveled, but with a different description than that of usual Traveling.

Jordan said that that was because the Traveling was done by using the True Power. We'd seen the same since, when Moridin Travels somewhere... "The Pattern screamed."

Marie Curie 7
06-02-2011, 09:51 PM
We know from the glossary to "From The Two Rivers" that it's possible there was one individual who was "the first" to learn to channel. Presumably there would have been a high number of wilders when people first started channeling, but he would have found and taught some, and his pupils would find and teach some, etc.

Actually, that entry was in the glossary (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=0ARw8aVNqPsL5ZGNqc3BqcWdfNDg0dm1mZHZuZ2 g&revision=_latest#Ring_of_Tamyrlin) of To the Blight, the second half of the young adult version of The Eye of the World:



Ring of Tamyrlin: A legendary ring, believed mythical by most people, worn by the leader of the Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. Stories about the Ring of Tamyrlin include that it was an angreal or sa'angreal or ter'angreal of immense power. It supposedly was named after the first person to learn how to tap into the True Source and channel the One Power, and in some tales, was actually made by that man or woman. Despite what many Aes Sedai say, no one knows whether it was a man or a woman who first learned to channel. Some believe that the present title of Amyrlin is a corruption of Tamyrlin.

And RJ said a little more about this in the Tor Questions of the Week:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

The Unreasoner
06-03-2011, 03:54 AM
Is Tamyrlin from the east bay? I live 15 miles from clayton and still have trouble finding anything in that tiny ass town, and reading some interviews he's cruising through there with sanderson.

gen
06-03-2011, 06:45 PM
I was going through yet another reread and I stumbled across this in PoD, ch. 27. I'm having trouble deciphering what exactly is Min saying and thinking.

He eased himself onto the bed, lying back on the heaped pillows, and she snuggled in beside him. Not what she had been hoping for, but as much as was going to happen, she was sure. "Not what I was hoping to use this bed for", he muttered. She was not sure she had been supposed to hear. She laughed. "I enjoy you holding me just as much as... as the other." Strangely, he smiled at her as if he knew she was lying. Her Aunt Miren claimed that was one of the three lies any man would believe from a woman.

So basically is Min lying that she enjoys hug as much as smaking love but Rand sees through this. And this was what her aunt has told her all men will believe? Or am I completely missing the point in here since that explanation sounds pretty.. bad.

nameless
06-03-2011, 06:48 PM
No, you got it right. People tend to believe lies that flatter their egos, so a man who was insecure about being too injured for sex would be predisposed to believe a woman who lied and said she didn't really mind - at least according to Min's aunts.

Terez
06-03-2011, 06:50 PM
That seems like what she's getting at, but why is it bad? I'm guessing the implication is that men believe that women don't like sex as much as they do, and therefore they would believe that lie.

gen
06-03-2011, 06:59 PM
It just felt kind of wrong/bad that her prudish aunts would tell her such things considering how little they have seemed to tell Min about sex at all. Telling her to say that lovemaking (which would by default mean sex in marriage) with her husband isn't that great does sound a bit weird advice. I don't know, it just caught my eye on the read and I wanted to hear opinions if I was missing some deeper thing in it. And I don't know how flattering it would be for Rand that Min says she's not too keen on making love, fresh injuries or not. Anyways, thank you for answering.

Terez
06-03-2011, 07:12 PM
It just felt kind of wrong/bad that her prudish aunts would tell her such things considering how little they have seemed to tell Min about sex at all.
I don't recall any evidence that they were prudish?

David Selig
06-03-2011, 07:31 PM
ACOS, Ch. 35

The aunts who had raised her were gentle, kind women, but they had strong notions of proper behavior. They had disapproved of her wearing breeches, disapproved of her working in stables, the job she loved best, since it brought her into contact with horses. There was no question what they would think of comforting, with a man she was not married to. If they ever found out, they would ride all the way from Baerlon just to skin her. And him, too, of course.

Those aunts really need to be told about Rand, Elayne and Avi ASAP, should be fun. ;)

Terez
06-03-2011, 07:45 PM
That doesn't say they were too prudish to talk about sex; just that it would have been in the context of marriage. In the context of the real-world era RJ was borrowing from, sex talk and even popular pamphlets were not uncommon, right? But it was all about marriage. Advice from matrons to maidens on how to deal with men. Of course, Min's three aunts are maiden if I recall...

Rand al'Fain
06-03-2011, 07:56 PM
That reminds me of something I've always wondered about when reading Min's POVs.

What happened to Min's parents? She mentions her father and aunts, but never says what happened to any of them (unless I completely blanked something).

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2011, 04:23 AM
Maybe she never had any parents at all.

Rand al'Fain
06-04-2011, 10:31 AM
Maybe she never had any parents at all.

So she was just mined from one one of those mines, initily raised by the guy who found her, and then sent off randomly to live with his sisters?

David Selig
06-04-2011, 11:59 AM
Maybe the Pattern arranged it so Rand wouldn't have to deal with too many in-laws. :)

This got me curious about Aviendha's parents. Are they mentioned at all?

Kimon
06-04-2011, 12:10 PM
This got me curious about Aviendha's parents. Are they mentioned at all?

No, but we have seen her sister (Niella), and her aunt (Lian - one of Rhuarc's wives).

David Selig
06-04-2011, 12:18 PM
Yeah, I remember that.

There was a mention during Avi's first-sister ceremony from one of the WO “I stand for Aviendha’s mother, who cannot be here", and given that the WO had Travelling available, may be a clue that she's dead. On maybe the presense of the mother was not really necessary for the ceremony and not worth the bother of going to the Waste, who knows...

Marie Curie 7
06-04-2011, 01:01 PM
What happened to Min's parents? She mentions her father and aunts, but never says what happened to any of them (unless I completely blanked something).

It is stated that her father died, but it isn't explicitly stated how he died. It was then that she was taken in by her aunts, so presumably her mother was also dead by that time.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 41 - A Threat

It was not the Aiel who kept Min sitting there, however. Not entirely, though she had heard all sorts of terrible stories about black-veiled Aiel. Her coat and breeches were the finest, softest wool that could be found in Salidar, in a pale rose, with tiny blue-and-white flowers embroidered on lapels and cuffs and down the outsides of the legs. Her shirt was cut like a boy's too, but in cream silk. In Baerlon, after her father died, her aunts had tried to make her into what they called a decent proper woman, though maybe her Aunt Miren had understood that after ten years running about the mines in boys' clothes, it might be too late to stuff her into dresses. They had tried, even so, and she had fought them as stubbornly as she refused to learn to wield a needle. Aside from that unfortunate episode serving tables at The Miners' Rest - a rough place, but she had not stayed long; Rana, Jan and Miren had seen to that emphatically when they found out, and no matter that she was twenty then - aside from that one time, she had never worn a dress willingly. Now she was thinking that maybe she should have had one made instead of this coat and breeches. A dress in silk, cut snug at the bodice and low, and...

We do know that Min's mother named her Elmindreda, but that's about it:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

"So you are Elmindreda, are you?" Leane said briskly. She was always brisk. "I must say you look it more in that dress than in your usual... garb."

"Just Min, Leane Sedai, if you please." Min managed to keep her face straight, but it was difficult not to glare. The Keeper's voice had held too much amusement. If her mother had had to name her after someone in a story, why did it have to be a woman who seemed to spend most of her time sighing at men, when she was not inspiring them to compose songs about her eyes, or her smile?

Rand al'Fain
06-04-2011, 03:07 PM
Okay thanks for that, I guess I keep missing that part.

Terez
06-04-2011, 04:13 PM
This got me curious about Aviendha's parents. Are they mentioned at all?
Aviendha mentioned her mother in TOM when Nakomi showed up, but I wonder if Brandon just threw that in because he (like many of us) thought it odd that Aviendha never talked about her parents. Also, in TSR she mentioned that Lian is her mother's sister.

Zombie Sammael
06-06-2011, 03:58 AM
New question: does anyone know where the name Lanfear comes from, in a real world sources-and-references sense? The only thing I can think of that's close is the French "l'enfer" for hell, but a creature called a Clanfear appears in Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, so I was hoping there's some other citation.

looqas
06-06-2011, 04:29 AM
Question 1:

Couple of years ago a charity auction was held for readers to get their names in the book. I never followed this auction/drawing to the end. A quick googling revealed this:

WoT Fundraiser Winners Announced
April 19th, 2009

Thanks to everyone who participated in the Wheel of Time Charity Fundraiser for Heifer International!

We collectively raised $44,619.94 for the charity, making us the second largest fundraiser that happened in this time frame. The truly amazing part, however, is the amount of people who donated. We had over 830 people participate, which makes us the largest team of donors at Heifer in this time frame (in comparison, the higher earning group had only 13 donors). We truly have shown a cooperative spirit and have made an exceptional difference by banding together. Thanks to everyone who participated!

I would also like to thank Rachel Little for her help in processing so much of the data for this fundraiser. And, of course, we’d like to thank Brandon for allowing us to organize this event.

THE WINNERS OF THE GENERAL DONATION DRAWING!

We would like to congratulate Tina Wagner and Anthony Aziz! Your names were drawn on Saturday night at Jordan*Con. I’ll be contacting you soon with details. You will be named characters, with physical descriptions, representing all of us as Officers in the Last Battle.

THE WINNER OF THE SILENT AUCTION!

We would like to congratulate Brian Neff, who had the winning bid of $15,200. Mr. Neff will be working with Brandon to be a unique character in “A Memory of Light.”

BUT…. I DIDN’T WIN AND I AM BUMMED

Of course, all of us who participated will be represented generally by a military group fighting in the last battle. But you’ll be extra pleased to know that Mr. Sanderson isn’t leaving it at that. He has a lot of character names to create, and he has taken the list of all donors. He will occassionally pull another name from the bag and use that name as inspiration for another character name. While these will not be described as you, you may yet still have a chance to see a variation of your name in the books.

Thank you all for participation!

So are Tina Wagner, Anthony Aziz and Brian Neff the only "real" winners in this or am I missing something? I had the rather strong (and false it seems) impression that there would have been more slots. Is the list of donors (the name pool) available somewhere? I didn't participate, but am interested to see how this turns out.


Question 2:

It's probably mentioned in the books, and I have a hazy recollection that the range of years Mat has memories of is mentioned, but does Mat have memories of War of Power? I'm interested because I was collecting a list of people who have actually lived during that are still in the game. It's a pretty short list. Am I missing anyone?


Ishy / Moridin
Demandred
Graendal
Moggy
Mesaana (just needs Dr. Moridin to administer a little TP healing to bring back memories)
Lanfear / Cyndane
Lews Therin
Birgitte?
Gaidal Cain / Olver? Not a debate if GC = Ollie, but a possibility.

Rand al'Fain
06-06-2011, 11:42 AM
I can actually answer your second question.

Mat has pointed out that he has memories from the Trolloc Wars on down to the 100 Year War (I think that's the right name). He also has personal memories from Manethren, but has not mentioned anything prior to the Trolloc Wars.

And I think there is a quote that said that Olver is not GC, and that Olver was partially a red-herring for that.

Weiramon
06-06-2011, 12:11 PM
I'm interested because I was collecting a list of people who have actually lived during that are still in the game. It's a pretty short list. Am I missing anyone?


Ishy / Moridin
Demandred
Graendal
Moggy
Mesaana (just needs Dr. Moridin to administer a little TP healing to bring back memories)
Lanfear / Cyndane
Lews Therin
Birgitte?
Gaidal Cain / Olver? Not a debate if GC = Ollie, but a possibility.


Burn my eyes, but there might be a ter'angreal - say forgotten somewhere in the Waste - that allows one to experience past lives back to the War of Power. Why, there could be a dozen Clan chieftains plodding about with memories of that time rattling about their skulls. But who would trust anything those savages recall?

The Unreasoner
06-06-2011, 12:15 PM
Neff=Naeff?

finnssss
06-06-2011, 12:35 PM
Question 1:

Couple of years ago a charity auction was held for readers to get their names in the book. I never followed this auction/drawing to the end. A quick googling revealed this:



So are Tina Wagner, Anthony Aziz and Brian Neff the only "real" winners in this or am I missing something? I had the rather strong (and false it seems) impression that there would have been more slots. Is the list of donors (the name pool) available somewhere? I didn't participate, but am interested to see how this turns out.


Question 2:

It's probably mentioned in the books, and I have a hazy recollection that the range of years Mat has memories of is mentioned, but does Mat have memories of War of Power? I'm interested because I was collecting a list of people who have actually lived during that are still in the game. It's a pretty short list. Am I missing anyone?


Ishy / Moridin
Demandred
Graendal
Moggy
Mesaana (just needs Dr. Moridin to administer a little TP healing to bring back memories)
Lanfear / Cyndane
Lews Therin
Birgitte?
Gaidal Cain / Olver? Not a debate if GC = Ollie, but a possibility.




Mat's earliest memories start about 400-500 years before the Trolloc wars and end with Hawkwing.

tFoH chptr 22

GonzoTheGreat
06-06-2011, 03:16 PM
Burn my eyes, but there might be a ter'angreal - say forgotten somewhere in the Waste - that allows one to experience past lives back to the War of Power. Why, there could be a dozen Clan chieftains plodding about with memories of that time rattling about their skulls. But who would trust anything those savages recall?Some even claim that some women have used that ter'angreal too. Go figure.

Xevus
06-07-2011, 03:15 AM
Not any more. As in, RJ had them tying off gateways earlier, and then he changed it in KOD, apparently because of the metro problem (which Brandon has mentioned in interview). But it was changed rather ungracefully from what I saw, unless the bits about tying them off were removed in later editions.

Could you please direct me (or quote) to relevant piece in KOD ?

DahLliA
06-07-2011, 04:59 AM
got one. been doing my first re-read in ages and did Thom kill Galldrian and start the civil war in TGH or did I just miss something obvious again?

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2011, 05:07 AM
Yes, he did. That was intuitively obvious to the most casual reader.

DahLliA
06-07-2011, 05:13 AM
Yes, he did. That was intuitively obvious to the most casual reader.

yeah. I always figured he did it, but as far as I can remember we never hear it straight out. just that he'd be dead before he got within 100 feet of the king

Zombie Sammael
06-07-2011, 05:26 AM
Mine either got lost in the shuffle, or nobody knew, so I'll be irritating and ask it again: Does anyone know where the name Lanfear comes from, in a real world sense?

looqas
06-07-2011, 05:47 AM
yeah. I always figured he did it, but as far as I can remember we never hear it straight out. just that he'd be dead before he got within 100 feet of the king

It's almost spelled out in ToM when Thom meets Elayne and she pardons him for crimes in Andor and Cairhien and Thom remarks that where did she learn that caper (in Cairhien). Strong implication and logically the only plausible criminal thing Thom could have done in Cairhien deserving a pardon is killing off Galldrian. Sure it would not hold water in court, but it's for the readers benefit only to include the Cairhien bit.

David Selig
06-07-2011, 06:19 AM
This bit bothered me a bit - I don't see a plausible way for Elayne to know it was Thom who killed Galldrian. It's hardly common knowledge. Nobody is really chasing Thom for this, for example, and he doesn't seem bothered by the chance of the Riatin House sending assassins after him or something like that, he hasn't assumed an alias or tried to chang the way he looked. Thom is too good to leave witnesses.

Besides, it was a crime committed in another realm anyway which Elayne at this point was not Queen of - so why give pardon at all, seems pointless.

Zombie Sammael
06-07-2011, 06:21 AM
This bit bothered me a bit - I don't see a plausible way for Elayne to know it was Thom who killed Galldrian. It's hardly common knowledge. Nobody is really chasing Thom for this, for example, and he doesn't seem bothered by the chance of the Riatin House sending assassins after him or something like that, he hasn't assumed an alias or tried to chang the way he looked. Thom is too good to leave witnesses.

Besides, it was a crime committed in another realm anyway which Elayne at this point was not Queen of - so why give pardon at all, seems pointless.

Because at this point she is, or is claiming to be, Queen of Cairhien as well - therefore she would be in charge of pardons. It's an early sign that she IS going to stake a claim to the throne of Cairhien.

Terez
06-07-2011, 01:10 PM
This bit bothered me a bit - I don't see a plausible way for Elayne to know it was Thom who killed Galldrian. It's hardly common knowledge.
I agree; he only told Zera about it. It's possible that she gossiped, but she doesn't seem the gossiping type. I assumed one of these:

1) Brandon blipped.
2) Elayne was referring to the murder of her father, and she doesn't know for sure where it happened.
3) She was just being nice and playing it safe.
4) One of the Houses had a warrant for his arrest for some reason or another - he did manage to piss a few of them off by talking to Rand at Barthanes' place.
5) Zera gossiped. Which would make it all the more cool when Thom becomes king (screw you Elayne).

Crispin's Crispian
06-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Mine either got lost in the shuffle, or nobody knew, so I'll be irritating and ask it again: Does anyone know where the name Lanfear comes from, in a real world sense?

WoT FAQ (http://wotfaq.dragonmount.com/node/160) suggests that it's derived from the French word for Hell: "l'enfer."

It could well be, but it could also be that RJ made it up all on his own, since Lanfear was the only Chosen to make up her own alias.

Rand al'Fain
06-07-2011, 04:14 PM
Why do the Tairens and Illianers hate eachother? As in, when did it all start?

GonzoTheGreat
06-07-2011, 04:33 PM
Why do the Tairens and Illianers hate eachother? As in, when did it all start?They hate each other because they are rivals for the position of Biggest Port In The South. And that'll have started either in the final stages of the Breaking, or right afterwards.

Rand al'Fain
06-07-2011, 04:38 PM
They hate each other because they are rivals for the position of Biggest Port In The South. And that'll have started either in the final stages of the Breaking, or right afterwards.
I thought Ebou Dar in Alatara had the largest port in the South?

Terez
06-07-2011, 04:49 PM
No, though it is an important one. All three ports are important because their major rivers reach to different geographical areas. There's no indication which is the most important that I can recall, but Tear seems to be the most successful despite what a pain in the ass it is for traders, what with the Fingers and the lack of any trading posts south of the city.

Kimon
06-07-2011, 05:00 PM
No, though it is an important one. All three ports are important because their major rivers reach to different geographical areas. There's no indication which is the most important that I can recall, but Tear seems to be the most successful despite what a pain in the ass it is for traders, what with the Fingers and the lack of any trading posts south of the city.

The BWB claims that Tear is the greatest port on the Sea of Storms. That doesn't tell us which of the other two, Illian or Ebou Dar, would be the largest (I think it a fair assumption that Mayene's port is smaller) of the other major ports on that sea, but Mayene would seem to be the most important rival in terms of shipping concerns for the Tairens - probably a combination of direct competition in the oil trade, but also a rival for trade with the Far East (Shara). Likely long-standing border conflicts play a greater role in the rivalry between Tear and Illian than shipping concerns, as their navigable rivers feed different sections of the mainland.

David Selig
06-07-2011, 06:22 PM
I agree; he only told Zera about it. It's possible that she gossiped, but she doesn't seem the gossiping type. I assumed one of these:

1) Brandon blipped.
2) Elayne was referring to the murder of her father, and she doesn't know for sure where it happened.
3) She was just being nice and playing it safe.
4) One of the Houses had a warrant for his arrest for some reason or another - he did manage to piss a few of them off by talking to Rand at Barthanes' place.
5) Zera gossiped. Which would make it all the more cool when Thom becomes king (screw you Elayne).

The first option seems the most likely to me. The second is really unlikely - nothing in Elayne's PoV indicates she knows Thom has killed her father. Even Morgase doesn't seem to know that Taringail was assassinated.

Lightning
06-07-2011, 09:43 PM
Here is one that I've always been wondering about. Does Rand have any blood relatives among the Aiel?

His mom was obviously Andoran and we know Luc is his actual uncle, and he really doesn't have living relations on that side. (which reminds me, did that house just die out? What happened to all their lands and stuff?)

But his father Janduin must have had some relations. I mean for one thing as a clan chief he must have had a wife even before Rand's mom came along. If not some sort of siblings or cousins or something. Seems to me there must be at least a dozen cousins and second cousins and stuff out there, if not some half brothers and sisters.

The thing I could never understand is how Rand never asked around about that. All he did was ask who his parents were the one time and he never mentions them again. Didn't he ever wonder if the people he is seeing on a daily basis especially the Tardaad are related to him? Is it just me or is that a rather odd reaction?

Kimon
06-07-2011, 10:03 PM
His mom was obviously Andoran and we know Luc is his actual uncle, and he really doesn't have living relations on that side. (which reminds me, did that house just die out? What happened to all their lands and stuff?)



House Mantear is still extant. They supported Elayne during the Succession. We only know of two living members of the House (well besides Rand, Galad, and Luc anyway) - Perival (the 12 year old High Seat) and Willin (his guardian). Unclear just how closely related they are to Rand.

Lightning
06-08-2011, 12:27 AM
Perival (the 12 year old High Seat) and Willin (his guardian). Unclear just how closely related they are to Rand.

Why didn't Galad become the the high seat? He is the obvious heir to the house after Rands mom and uncle go MIA.

Weird Harold
06-08-2011, 12:38 AM
Why didn't Galad become the the high seat? He is the obvious heir to the house after Rands mom and uncle go MIA.
Because he's Lord Galadedrid of House Damodred and not in the succession of House Mantear.

The Unreasoner
06-08-2011, 01:59 AM
He was practically a toddler when tigraine died, so likely someone else took over. I don't think his damodred name kept him out of the running. And by the time he came of age, he was adopted by morgase so if he was high seat morgase might be seen as having power over two houses.

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2011, 04:49 AM
The first option seems the most likely to me. The second is really unlikely - nothing in Elayne's PoV indicates she knows Thom has killed her father.Elayne: "You killed my father!"
Thom: "No Elayne, I ..." :p

Come to think of it: it would be interesting to read Galad's reaction.

David Selig
06-08-2011, 06:25 AM
Gawyn: "Cool, now I have another parent to avenge, I was starting to miss all the anger and angst..." ;)

finnssss
06-08-2011, 03:12 PM
He was practically a toddler when tigraine died, so likely someone else took over. I don't think his damodred name kept him out of the running. And by the time he came of age, he was adopted by morgase so if he was high seat morgase might be seen as having power over two houses.


No, you're right, it was the whole him having a penis that kept him out of it.

They only have Queens in Andor son lol

Heinz
06-08-2011, 03:25 PM
The question was about House Mantear though, where his gender would not prohibit Galad from succeeding. I can only think his ties to Cairhien kept him from becomming high seat.

And, Galad is still alive, so Rand does have a half-brother still alive from his mother's side. Its one of the storylines I've been waiting to see come full circle finally, Galad and Rand meeting again, with Galad knowing who Rand is. (iirc, Rand knows at this point?) I don't think they've met since tEotW.

finnssss
06-08-2011, 09:02 PM
The question was about House Mantear though, where his gender would not prohibit Galad from succeeding. I can only think his ties to Cairhien kept him from becomming high seat.



I guess the real question would be where would Taringail fit in after Tigraine's disappearance. Wouldn't he have become the defacto head of House Mantear?
Which he, along with Galad, then gave up when he married into House Trakand and Galad's subsequent adoption?

I dunno, Royal bloodlines are confusing as shit imo.

Kimon
06-08-2011, 09:53 PM
I guess the real question would be where would Taringail fit in after Tigraine's disappearance. Wouldn't he have become the defacto head of House Mantear?
Which he, along with Galad, then gave up when he married into House Trakand and Galad's subsequent adoption?

I dunno, Royal bloodlines are confusing as shit imo.

Tarangail was of House Damodred, not Mantear. Galad could presumably have been adopted into House Mantear and made their seat, but presumably at the time they had other options, and so when Tarangail married Morgase, she adopted him, but allowed him to remain a part of the Damodred gens so that Tarangail could maintain his dream of making Galad king of Cairhien and then a daughter queen of Andor.

looqas
06-09-2011, 01:28 AM
I've been interested in geography and populations and such since I was a little kid, so I have a question: Has anyone compiled/calculated statistics/figures about the population of the countries, land areas, population of the cities etc. ?

The books themselves do not give answers easily, but I figure some HCFF must have done some calculations even based on the rather in adequate world map ;)

Rand al'Fain
06-09-2011, 01:50 AM
I've been interested in geography and populations and such since I was a little kid, so I have a question: Has anyone compiled/calculated statistics/figures about the population of the countries, land areas, population of the cities etc. ?

The books themselves do not give answers easily, but I figure some HCFF must have done some calculations even based on the rather in adequate world map ;)

Just a guesstimate, but I think that the major cities (Caemlyn, Tear, Illian, etc.) could have around 1 million people in them. Considering that in the real world, such cities as Rome, Alexandria, the capital of the Aztec empire, and multiple Chinese cities of the middle ages and iron ages had populations of over 1 million people. So I don't think it would be too-far-fetched to say that some of the capitol cities had populations that large.

sandoz12
06-09-2011, 02:24 AM
What I have never been able to understand is how the huge armies we have seen in the series have been able to be fed/supplied etc without completely destroying the local area.

In TPoD we see the Seanchan take care to always create a supply chain. But other times there seem to just be huge amassed armies and where is all the food for them?

sartho
06-09-2011, 03:14 AM
Ok, I got another one.

I know Egwene was able to send a message to Nynaeve and Elayne in their dreams, but is it possible to pull someone from their dream into TAR?

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2011, 04:00 AM
Ok, I got another one.

I know Egwene was able to send a message to Nynaeve and Elayne in their dreams, but is it possible to pull someone from their dream into TAR?Yes, it is. The Wise Ones say you shouldn't do this, that it is a thing of evil which the forces of the Shadow did during the War of Power. The Forsaken don't seem bothered by such scruples, though, and they have been doing it fairly regularly.

sartho
06-09-2011, 04:09 AM
So is it similar to going into TAR 'in the flesh' in that it's somehow harms the person, or is it just something that's seen as morally wrong and should never be tried?

I know the Wise Ones know what they're talking about, but I was just wondering if it was something that was frowned upon in the distant past, that evolved into being evil. Like how morals change throughout history and societies.

Sorry if this was a long post, but I got a little carried away. :o

looqas
06-09-2011, 05:20 AM
Just a guesstimate, but I think that the major cities (Caemlyn, Tear, Illian, etc.) could have around 1 million people in them. Considering that in the real world, such cities as Rome, Alexandria, the capital of the Aztec empire, and multiple Chinese cities of the middle ages and iron ages had populations of over 1 million people. So I don't think it would be too-far-fetched to say that some of the capitol cities had populations that large.

I have hard time imagining a million people in a city based on the drawings of the cities in the books. There simply are not enough city blocks.

And it seems that most of the cities do not have sub-urbs in sense we understand them. Villages and hamlets outside the walls. But hardly to make up the numbers for a million inhabitants. Well. To my mind comes 2 rather large sub-urbs. One shanty town in Tear and one in Ebou Dar. Can't remember their names atm.

I would peg the population of the cities to 100k. Maybe 200k tops with Tear.

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2011, 05:36 AM
So is it similar to going into TAR 'in the flesh' in that it's somehow harms the person, or is it just something that's seen as morally wrong and should never be tried?

I know the Wise Ones know what they're talking about, but I was just wondering if it was something that was frowned upon in the distant past, that evolved into being evil. Like how morals change throughout history and societies.From what I remember of it, we do not have enough information to answer this question.
That need not stop you from speculating, of course, but if you, you'll get slapped down with a "you have no evidence for that" now and then.

Sorry if this was a long post, but I got a little carried away. :oDon't worry. It did not need to be split up, which has happened to posts of a number of the regular posters here (including me) now and then. The board only allows some specific (but unknown to me at the moment) maximum size of posts, and you were nowhere near that.
You do actually use punctuation and even line breaks, so your post is very readable.

David Selig
06-09-2011, 05:57 AM
From the interview database:

The larger cities had between 300k and 600K [people]. Tar Valon has 700K people. Andor has a population of 10 million.

Zombie Sammael
06-09-2011, 08:34 AM
To add to the responses to Looqas' question, one interesting thing population-wise is that, at least until very recently, the overall population in the Westlands (at least) was/is declining, and was thought to be partly a symptom of the Dark One's touch on the pattern. That may be starting to fix itself now with Rand about, much like the grain.

Terez
06-09-2011, 09:44 AM
To add to the responses to Looqas' question, one interesting thing population-wise is that, at least until very recently, the overall population in the Westlands (at least) was/is declining, and was thought to be partly a symptom of the Dark One's touch on the pattern.
I believe it was thought more to be a result of war than anything else, aside from Ingtar's fatalism. Of course, it might have been the result of the discovery of heartleaf tea.

Res_Ipsa
06-09-2011, 11:10 AM
I believe it was thought more to be a result of war than anything else, aside from Ingtar's fatalism. Of course, it might have been the result of the discovery of heartleaf tea.

Which should change if the inventions at Rand's school are any indication as well as Aviendha's showing of the future. While the later can change for the better it seems an industrial revolution is on its way and that should be accompanied by a massive population boom. Also, consider the baby boomers it seems possible there will be a period of peace (~20years) or so in which people have lots of kids before the "peace of the Dragon" is broken; if it is at all now that Rand made the correct choice.

Weird Harold
06-09-2011, 11:53 AM
What I have never been able to understand is how the huge armies we have seen in the series have been able to be fed/supplied etc without completely destroying the local area.

I've just written off the size of armies in the WOT as FM. RJ was very good about many things, especially military things, but he completely fornicated the canine on population sizes. The three-fold land could realistically support about 1/100th of the population RJ has in just the warrior societies.

nameless
06-09-2011, 12:13 PM
Maybe they're buying food from the Sharans?

Terez
06-09-2011, 12:26 PM
Maybe they are cannibalistic, and they just haven't told any wetlanders yet. "Raiding for sheep" is just a euphemism.

Tree Brother
06-09-2011, 12:39 PM
So is it similar to going into TAR 'in the flesh' in that it's somehow harms the person, or is it just something that's seen as morally wrong and should never be tried?

I know the Wise Ones know what they're talking about, but I was just wondering if it was something that was frowned upon in the distant past, that evolved into being evil. Like how morals change throughout history and societies.

Sorry if this was a long post, but I got a little carried away. :o

It is "morally wrong". Some things done in the Dream are stronger than done in the waking world. Consider: a person who is capable of pulling someone into TAR generally would know more than the one who gets pulled in. For example: pull in a person, and kill them. In the real world, this person will have simply died in sleep. Compulsion could also be used. I am not sure, but using compulsion in TAR may not leave visible weaves on the person in the waking world.

Even if you pulled someone in, and left them there, TAR is not the safest place for someone who doesn't know it. So I suppose it could be considered harmful as well.

Res_Ipsa
06-09-2011, 12:55 PM
I've just written off the size of armies in the WOT as FM. RJ was very good about many things, especially military things, but he completely fornicated the canine on population sizes. The three-fold land could realistically support about 1/100th of the population RJ has in just the warrior societies.

I have always thought RJ patterned the three-fold land off Mongolia but with a more extreme climate. It would not be out of the bounds of reason that large populations could be supported provided there were certain features: plentiful water (albeit hard to find and "plentiful" being a relative term), resilient plants and animals among them breed-able creatures for basic foodstuffs.

Beyond that the Aiel were dispersed and only gathered at Rand's coming. I admit it is a bit of a stretch but rooted in enough possibility so as not to be typical fantasy -impossibility deus ex machina/wtf.

Weird Harold
06-09-2011, 03:14 PM
I have always thought RJ patterned the three-fold land off Mongolia but with a more extreme climate. It would not be out of the bounds of reason that large populations could be supported provided there were certain features: plentiful water (albeit hard to find and "plentiful" being a relative term), resilient plants and animals among them breed-able creatures for basic foodstuffs.

Beyond that the Aiel were dispersed and only gathered at Rand's coming. I admit it is a bit of a stretch but rooted in enough possibility so as not to be typical fantasy -impossibility deus ex machina/wtf.

I live in a desert much milder than the Three-fold land is depicted as being -- home of some of the models for the Aeil, i.e. native americans of the southwest -- and there is no way the population specified in the books can be supported by the area shown on the maps.

It's been a while since I did an actual computation, but IIRC, it worked out the needing to support about 100/sq mi when the climate described couldn't support more than 1 or 2 per sq mile -- and that's a generous estimate; some deserts only support about one person per ten square miles.

RJ was off by at least two and maybe three orders of magnitude; but then he's off about that much for every other nation as well.

Lightning
06-09-2011, 09:33 PM
It is "morally wrong". Some things done in the Dream are stronger than done in the waking world. Consider: a person who is capable of pulling someone into TAR generally would know more than the one who gets pulled in. For example: pull in a person, and kill them. In the real world, this person will have simply died in sleep. Compulsion could also be used. I am not sure, but using compulsion in TAR may not leave visible weaves on the person in the waking world.

Even if you pulled someone in, and left them there, TAR is not the safest place for someone who doesn't know it. So I suppose it could be considered harmful as well.


This is all true and part of the reason why the wise ones prohibit bringing someone into the dream. But there is one more reason, and that is the fact that even a strong dreamer is at a disadvantage when they are inside someone else's dream.

If you remember one of Egwene's lessons was to go into Ruharc's dream, and because he had more power and control there than she did she got transformed into a little kid, which is how Ruharc saw her. She was also unable to pull herself out of Gawyn's dreams when she got caught there, she was what he dreamt her to be and couldn't get out or change things.

This is why the wise ones say it's evil to pull someone into a dream that is not their's. Because the subject regardless of their strength and skill at dreaming would be at a staggering disadvantage and at the complete mercy of their captor.

GonzoTheGreat
06-10-2011, 02:42 AM
Because the subject regardless of their strength and skill at dreaming would be at a staggering disadvantage and at the complete mercy of their captor.But if that's bad, then what is the point of taking captives at all? :eek:
You definitely do not want them to be able to fight back.

Xevus
06-10-2011, 07:06 AM
I've been reading some old threads about ToM in archives and noticed that everybody constantly joking about the fact that all 3 ta'veren has seen Moiraine naked. When exactly did Perrin saw her naked ?

Terez
06-10-2011, 08:16 AM
I've been reading some old threads about ToM in archives and noticed that everybody constantly joking about the fact that all 3 ta'veren has seen Moiraine naked. When exactly did Perrin saw her naked ?
In TDR. He walked in her room once without knocking, and she was standing in front of the mirror with her robe hanging on her shoulders, which she then closed nonchalantly. Poor Perrin didn't know what to do.

Lightning
06-10-2011, 11:40 AM
But if that's bad, then what is the point of taking captives at all? :eek:
You definitely do not want them to be able to fight back.

I don't think the wise ones ever thought of their talent for dreaming as a means of restraining or fighting at all. They were wise ones after all, never taking part in any conflict. IMO they viewed deaming as a way to gain wisdom and knowledge that would help them guide their people, and it also happened to be a great tool for communication. To them using it as a tool to over power someone would probably be the same as holding a knife at their throat, except they could not defend themselves from a dream as they might have with a knife.

Either way a wise one does not resort to force or violence (except verbally) and they would have considered it evil for themselves to use the dream as such.