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View Full Version : The Case Against/For Taim = Moridin?


Tamyrlin
05-23-2011, 08:44 AM
Our good friend Linda Taglieri believes that Taim is Moridin. And while I don't believe the theory, I was wondering if anyone has written up all of the reasons why it is not possible. In other words, let's discuss the merits, or lack thereof, of the theory which you can read here:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

And as an aside, I didn't realize that Sei'taer had pushed the same idea (although not as well detailed) many years ago: http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=66&theo=777. Ignore my comment ten years ago...I would not join that faction.

So - thoughts/evidence against (or for)?

Zombie Sammael
05-23-2011, 08:55 AM
Off the top of my head, the fact that Rand doesn't recognise Moridin as soon as he meets him in SL, or at any of their other meetings, springs to mind.

Terez
05-23-2011, 09:15 AM
Presumably he'd be using Illusion.

I still need to investigate this, and I was planning on doing it soon. The things that come to mind are things like, Taim wants Rand dead, but Moridin doesn't, for obvious reasons. That's the main kicker. And why would Moridin even pretend to submit to Rand's authority when he could get, say, Demandred to do it for him? And of course, by all appearances, Moridin didn't even return until somewhere toward the end of ACOS. And aside from that, both Moridin and Taim seem like fairly busy people - too busy to be both at once.

There are some other things but I'll post more later.

Enigma
05-23-2011, 11:48 AM
We know that Dashiva was a forsaken. Why have two forsaken at the Black Tower if Taim was Moridin. If Taim was Moridin that Dashiva could have been employed somewhere else. It was just blind luck that Rand picked out Dashiva for his guard so he could not have been sent there for that reason.

If Taim was Moridin why would he have had to scout out what happened to Rand when he was kidnapped. RJ specifically said Taim was paranoid and when he found Rand gone he started looking for him by gateway. As the operation was being run by Messana and Moridin seems to have been monitering what the rest of the forsaken were doing would he not have been expecting the kidnapping.

Its not impossible that Massana might be playing her own game with only Semirhage and Demandred in the know but I was under the impression that by tha point Moridin has gained enough power that he is getting briefings on what is going on amoung the rest of the chosen.

Some forsaken have noted that while they don't know that Moridin was linked to Rand, he has not been looking good lately. No one seems to have noted any similar deteriation with Taim. He has been seen by several AS and none of them have said he looks under the weather, favours his left hand etc.

Lastly Moridin is pretty busy in the last few books keeping an eye on the rest of the forsaken, preparing the armies of the Shadow for war etc. Yet there is no evidence that Taim has gone awol from the BT for long periods of time. If he was Moridin and he had that amount of workload would he had the time to be staying at the BT as much as he has.

Terez
05-23-2011, 12:04 PM
No one seems to have noted any similar deteriation with Taim. He has been seen by several AS and none of them have said he looks under the weather, favours his left hand etc.
The Mazridin folks went a little wild over the fact that Taim kept one hand behind his back in his TOM scene.

Enigma
05-23-2011, 12:07 PM
I stand corrected. On its own however that one piece of circumstantial evidence will not sway a jury that Taim = Moridin.

finnssss
05-23-2011, 09:44 PM
Wouldn't the same argument from WH for why Demandred is not Taim be repeated for for why Moridin is not Taim as well.

The whole repeated orders thing from Taim, Moridin and Demandred to Kisman.


Also, the events that Taim reveals to Bashere about being attacked under a flag of parley and what Taim did to said assassins, would of happened prior to the end of tGH, let alone after the end of tDR when Ishy lost his former body.
Not saying it's not possible that Ishy/Moridin came by this info after but it would of involved Taim's capture by him and his associates and would need to be explained.

There's two points against just off the top of my head.

I would also like to mention that any points that I have seen for Taim being Moridin can be explained easier and usually better imo when you instead work under the premise that Taim is and has been Ishy/Moridin's pupil.

The naked brutality that Taim has demonstrated doesn't fit Moridin to me either.

sandoz12
05-24-2011, 12:16 AM
Wouldn't the same argument from WH for why Demandred is not Taim be repeated for for why Moridin is not Taim as well.

The whole repeated orders thing from Taim, Moridin and Demandred to Kisman.



While I don't think Moridin is Taim I do think the repeated orders aren't proof that he isn't. Because say Moridin were Taim he may well repeat the orders so that his followers don't cotton onto the fact that they are one and the same and in fact ensure that they think they are both separate entities.

Terez
05-24-2011, 02:47 AM
He is essentially referring to the same thing I was when I said that Taim really wants Rand dead, but Moridin doesn't. That's the difference in their orders; Taim actually gave outright orders to kill Rand, while Moridin simply wanted the Choedan Kal so as to prevent Rand from cleansing saidin. He obviously didn't want Rand dead, and for obvious reasons. And then you also have the fact that the most likely person to have ordered Slayer in Winter's Heart was Taim; none of the Chosen had ever disguised themselves so. Why would they?

sandoz12
05-24-2011, 03:14 AM
He is essentially referring to the same thing I was when I said that Taim really wants Rand dead, but Moridin doesn't. That's the difference in their orders; Taim actually gave outright orders to kill Rand, while Moridin simply wanted the Choedan Kal so as to prevent Rand from cleansing saidin. He obviously didn't want Rand dead, and for obvious reasons. And then you also have the fact that the most likely person to have ordered Slayer in Winter's Heart was Taim; none of the Chosen had ever disguised themselves so. Why would they?

I agree entirely. I was just pointing out that the possibility that one person could, for very logical reasons, issue duplicate orders under different aliases. But you are right that in this case it doesn't add up that this is what happened.

greatwolf
05-24-2011, 01:09 PM
The biggest arguement against Taimandred was RJ's say so. Same really goes for this. If Taim is in his late twenties, how can he be Moridin?

Terez
05-24-2011, 01:48 PM
That could be the age of the body.

greatwolf
05-24-2011, 02:48 PM
So Ishy gets two bodies? That'll take some proving. I'm leaning towards LT being in three for now, but that has a lot more going for it than this, and am not yet comfortable with it.

finnssss
05-24-2011, 06:47 PM
I dunno, it just doesn't "feel" right.

At least with Tamandred, you had similar personalities, reactions and almost the same circumstances (both were almost the Dragon).
I just don't see that with Moridin. I mean Taim and Demandred are still a closer match than Moridin and Taim are.

I also do not believe that any weave would of been enough to continue disguising himself as Taim after Rand's and his balefire streams crossed, establishing their "bond" in aCoS.
Yes, Rand and Taim, did meet face to face at least once after aCoS. Most notably at the end of tPoD when Taim arrives after the attack on Rand and Rand poisons Fedwin right in front of him.

sandoz12
05-24-2011, 06:53 PM
I dunno, it just doesn't "feel" right.

At least with Tamandred, you had similar personalities, reactions and almost the same circumstances (both were almost the Dragon).
I just don't see that with Moridin. I mean Taim and Demandred are still a closer match than Moridin and Taim are.

I agree. One of the main similarities between Taim and Moridin is their liking of the same colours. But I think in the BT case the colours are chosen, like so much else of the BT, for their resemblence to Nazism (oh no I just Godwinned the thread - sorry eveyone:D)and in particular the SS.

Ieyasu
05-25-2011, 06:12 PM
So Ishy gets two bodies? That'll take some proving. I'm leaning towards LT being in three for now, but that has a lot more going for it than this, and am not yet comfortable with it.

uh, yes, hes had 2 bodies since he was brought back from the dead... Ishy's original body, the one that is thousands of years old, was killed by Rand... the DO raised him in a new body.. the new body is early 20s...


do you read the same books as everyone else? or are you borrowing Felix's?