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View Full Version : The Battle of Caemlyn, and other AMOLish things


Terez
05-25-2011, 05:24 PM
So, there was a thread on this, but it got archived. So I'll start a new one. Presumably this battle is Demandred's Big Shindig as a general, and presumably it will be Mat's Shindig as well, and Mat will of course show Demandred how it's done. Another thing to consider is that Rand will probably die during the battle, if not in Caemlyn itself. What will go down at Merrilor? Pretty soon Rand's attention is going to be drawn to Caemlyn rather sharply (especially since Elayne is at Merrilor); while he was dreaming about Cyndane, Perrin might have been investigating the dreamspike. Rand already knows about it; he intimated as much, and that he understood one of the Forsaken was involved there. What is he going to do about it? It seems doubtful they will come to an agreement before noon, and it seems unlikely they will remain ignorant of the attack even that long.

In any case, Brandon said repeatedly that much of the Black Tower action was intended to be included in TOM but got moved to AMOL. So it seems most likely the battle will occur right off, no matter how many other things are going on at the same time. The book was also supposed to end with a reunion of 'all' the major plotlines, supposedly including Mat. If Mat makes it that far (to Merrilor), then it seems doubtful he will stay much longer than is necessary to grab the other half of the Band and run. Brandon also considered cutting much of Pevara's story and publishing it as a novella on his website, but some vocal fans nixed that idea pretty quickly.

Confirmed combatants:

Massive Shadowspawn Army √

Half of the Band of the Red Hand √

Olver √

Potential combatants:

Demandred and Mat — Most likely the generals of the battle. Mat has memories of attacking Caemlyn, and no doubt they will be put to good use. Demandred has been seen spying on Caemlyn, and though he was unaware at the time of Rand's connection to Elayne, he probably thinks of Andor as Rand's homeland.

Ten thousand mercenaries! — Elayne is not worried about them, but Mat is. Who would you listen to? Sure, Mat is a little paranoid these days, but there is some foreshadowing of mercenaries taking money from the bad guys in KOD, and Roedran has gold. Others do too. The Forsaken can presumably extort gold without much effort in this Age; none of them seem to have had a problem with it. And with a huge battle already being planned, how could they pass up this opportunity? Elayne doesn't have the funds to hire them, and by now the mercenaries will have figured that out.

The Legion of the Dragon — These guys are fishy, not least because they were Taim's idea. They are camped outside Caemlyn to the west (the Band is also camped on the west side of the city). They are highly trained, dangerous, and mostly an unknown element. They are the rejects from the Black Tower who fail the test - the larger number of Taim's recruits by far. Bashere has not been absent from them quite as much as Rand has been from the Black Tower, but it's pretty close. Who knows what they get up to? Also in their ranks are the Illianer soldiers who were loyal to 'Lord Brend'. But that's not fishy at all.

The Black Tower — It looms large on the east side of the city, and there is craziness going down there as we speak. Taim may manage to turn as many as 2-300 channelers to the Shadow before his defenses are penetrated (including the Reds, the Asha'man, and the rebels sent by Egwene) though Min's viewing of Logain and Faolain give us some hope. The dreamspike is not only portable, but its area is adjustable. It may be that Caemlyn can be included within its affected area, which would make things difficult at best. Gateways might be the only feasible way to save the city from the Shadowspawn.

Roedran and Murandy — The only ruler who didn't show up at Merrilor. Do we have to wonder why? I don't think so. The Murandians hate the Andorans, so it's completely unnecessary for them to be Darkfriends. If the Shadowspawn remain inside the city, then it will be easy enough to deploy the Murandians outside the walls to attack the Band (and whoever might join them) from behind. They might not find out they were fighting on the Shadow's side until it's all over with. That could be interesting, since the Band recruited heavily from Murandy, and the Murandians are probably still a little pissed that they marched all the way across Murandy with the Aes Sedai and practically dared the Murandians to try to do anything about it. No doubt that played some part in Roedran's plan to unite them against the Band in the first place, and no doubt 'Roedran' used their stealthy departure to incite still more rage.

Cyndane, Moghedien, and Slayer — These guys are most likely to be guarding the dreamspike, since Perrin proved that Slayer wasn't enough. Perhaps Cyndane has something more important to do, but I don't think it's coincidental that of the five Forsaken left, three of them are clearly the most talented in Tel'aran'rhiod of the bunch. Graendal is useless there, so I'm expecting her to be deployed elsewhere if not quickly dead. Some think she will be the only one to survive into the Fourth Age. But perhaps she can be used in Caemlyn or in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mesaana was not known to be particularly talented in the Dream, but she was competent at least. Maybe Graendal is too. Maybe Graendal will be sent to do something special in the palace since she knows the area. ;) But I'm thinking it more likely she will be Mindtrapped and sent to cultivate the threads she recently planted around Tuon. With the loss of Semirhage, you'd think that would be a high priority for Moridin. It would be interesting to see Tuon break Graendal's Compulsion; if she can resist Rand's ta'veren pull on strength of will alone, then surely she could manage that much. It could also have interesting implications for the damane issue, and influence how Tuon handles it. It also has the potential to put Tuon in a position where she feels the need to channel (or for that matter, she could be collared and forced to channel).

The Seanchan — This is a big iffy one. Tuon plans to attack Tar Valon again, but no one is home, though she might try to steal the Horn. Notably, it's been a month since Tuon decided to attack the Tower again. Will she attack the Field of Merrilor instead? Or Caemlyn? The Camlann (and 'camlann') parallels would suggest a confusion between Caemlyn and Tar Valon, which might suggest simultaneous battles that in legend were merged into one battle. What about the Black Tower? I can see something like an Asha'man attack on the Tarasin Palace to incite Tuon to attack the Black Tower. Tuon could change her mind and decide to attack Illian; that would be a good distraction from Caemlyn and the Borderlands. Mat might face her there, though probably not till after Caemlyn. She might steal the Horn from the Tower and find that it doesn't work for them because only Mat can blow it. She seemed to indicate that the Horn is mentioned in her prophecies. In any case, it seems likely the Seanchan will be kicking around at the time of Merrilor/Caemlyn to confuse the issue, or rather to make it more interesting.

The Merrilorians and the Merrilins — Or maybe Thom will marry into Damodred. That would seem to make more sense. Anyway, who knows how many of them will show up? It depends on the Seanchan, whether or not they attack, and whether or not there are distractions from other places, such as Tarwin's Gap, or other places where Shadowspawn might be massing. It seems doubtful they could have gotten another army of them through the Ways to attack somewhere else, but who knows? Maybe they have someone who could do it using a Portal Stone, more efficiently than the guy who was doing it in TOM. Then of course there's Moiraine, the big mystery, despite that everyone thinks it's so predictable; I think it more likely that she will kill Rand (with Alivia's help of course) than tell him some secret gotten from the Aelfinn. Who knows what she will do first when she finds Rand?

Rand and Moridin — Egwene has a dream of Logain stepping over Rand's dead body to mount a black stone which probably represents the position of the M'Hael. This is presumably his glory. Since Logain is clearly pointed at the Black Tower, then it seems likely that Rand will die during the battle, maybe even before. He might not have to face Moridin at all for this to happen, but we can be pretty certain that the link between them will be important in some way. I think that link is why Rand's death is necessary, but I expect there to be a moment of uncertainty before his death where either Moridin gains control of Rand's body (this would be dramatic) or Rand's body is killed and Rand's soul is trapped in Moridin's body with no control.

I expect about half the book to be about these things - Caemlyn, the Black Tower, Rand's death, and the last offensive from the Seanchan, wherever it might fall. The other half I expect to be mostly about Tarwin's Gap, Rand's resurrection, Shayol Ghul and sealing the Bore, and the Seanchan truce/Aviendha and the Aiel thing. The last I expect to happen while Rand is dead, and I expect it to take the form of 1) Tuon is made Empress of all Randland, 2) Tuon agrees to end the practice of collaring channelers and hopefully da'covale too, and 3) Mat and Tuon finally get it on (not necessarily in that order).

There are other things, like Cadsuane vs Sorilea (Cadsuane at least still has something to teach Rand and the Asha'man, most likely with her death). How will Demandred die? Will Cyndane turn? If not, will she make a move on Rand's life? Will Rand try to rescue her? What's going to happen with the Callandor circle thing? Breaking the seals? The Dark Prophecy seems to indicate that Rand will try to break the seals before he dies. These, along with Fain, are the big wild cards IMO. And the issue of where the Seanchan will attack, since it's probably not going to be the Tower. The Horn is another big wild card. When will it be used? Where? Illian does seem likely, but at the same time, Illian seems like an unnecessary distraction. If it goes down that way, then most likely Illian would happen after the Great Battle (at Caemlyn) is done. The Guardians balance the Servants, the land divided by the Return, yada yada. Meanwhile Rand is being resurrected. In that case, Rand would probably be directly involved with the truce.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't think Rand will be involved in the battle of Caemlyn. I think the end of TOM indicates him going off half-cocked to rescue Mierin/Lanfear/Cyndane, and dying in the attempt, either because "It's a trap!" or because it goes wrong. When he doesn't turn up to the Merrilor meeting, it becomes clear what has happened - either because he takes one ally with him or because the Shadow strikes.

I think some of the plot points for AMOL are reasonably easy to extrapolate, some of them tougher. I think there will be some manner of Pyrrhic victory for the Seanchan, and some sort of accommodation between the Seanchan and the AS. I can't see the Seanchan readily accepting AS or sending their channelers off the be trained on any terms other than those of Tear. At some point the Seanchan are also going to have to work out some method of dealing with male channelers. I just don't think widespread usage of the Sad bracelets is going to cut it, given the obvious problems with them.

Terez
05-25-2011, 05:41 PM
hen he doesn't turn up to the Merrilor meeting...
He was asleep on the Field of Merrilor when he had the dream.

Davian93
05-25-2011, 05:44 PM
The Seanchan — This is a big iffy one. Tuon plans to attack Tar Valon again, but no one is home, though she might try to steal the Horn.

T, is there evidence that Tuon or the Seanchan have any idea the Horn is there or is this just a "wow, look at what we found" kind of conjecture? I mean, odds are that Verin hid it very very well. The Seanchan had the Horn in their possession for a good 4-5 months and thought it was a mere trinket. Considering their view on "superstitions" I doubt they'd even really see the significance of the Horn. Tuon doesn't even believe in ta'veren despite being married to one.

Kimon
05-25-2011, 06:20 PM
T, is there evidence that Tuon or the Seanchan have any idea the Horn is there or is this just a "wow, look at what we found" kind of conjecture? I mean, odds are that Verin hid it very very well. The Seanchan had the Horn in their possession for a good 4-5 months and thought it was a mere trinket. Considering their view on "superstitions" I doubt they'd even really see the significance of the Horn. Tuon doesn't even believe in ta'veren despite being married to one.

She definitely is aware of the significance.

KoD Ch 8 - she's playing stones with Mat, mentions the horn, and then...

"The Horn of Valere?" he said weakly. The Prophecies said what? "It's been found, then?"

"It must have been, mustn't it, if it was sounded?" she drawled dryly. "The reports I've seen from the place where it was blown, a place called Falme, are very disturbing. Very disturbing. Securing whoever blew the Horn, man or woman, may be as important as securing the Dragon Reborn himself. Are you going to play a stone or not, Toy?"

The alarming bit from the prophecies that added to Mat's alarm was her comment that the Seanchan prophecies included that bit about the Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne.

Anyway, it would appear that she doesn't know where it is, but is very aware of both its significance, and probably (considering her insistence on finding not just it, but the person who blew it) of the importance of both the sounder and the horn, not just the horn in isolation.

Terez
05-25-2011, 06:20 PM
T, is there evidence that Tuon or the Seanchan have any idea the Horn is there or is this just a "wow, look at what we found" kind of conjecture?
Total conjecture, but it comes up a lot.

I mean, odds are that Verin hid it very very well. The Seanchan had the Horn in their possession for a good 4-5 months and thought it was a mere trinket.Turak never thought it a trinket, though he displayed it like one. He just didn't feel he had much use for it since blowing it would be considered a challenge to the Empress.

Considering their view on "superstitions" I doubt they'd even really see the significance of the Horn. Tuon doesn't even believe in ta'veren despite being married to one.We've had her thoughts on the Horn. She takes it seriously, and thinks it is all the more important that she find Rand if he was the one to blow the Horn. Hence the statement that their prophecies probably mention it.

nameless
05-25-2011, 06:21 PM
Wait, I thought you were getting the whole "die at noon" thing from the Gawyn/Gawain link. Is there a reason it's still part of the theory even though he's not?

Dav, Tuon knows what the Horn is and that it was used at Falme. She said as much to Mat at some point in the interminable "run away with the circus part II" sequence.

Zombie Sammael
05-25-2011, 06:33 PM
He was asleep on the Field of Merrilor when he had the dream.

Yes, but the actual meeting hadn't yet taken place. The way I see it, he wakes up, runs off, and doesn't make it back.

sandoz12
05-25-2011, 06:42 PM
Yes, but the actual meeting hadn't yet taken place. The way I see it, he wakes up, runs off, and doesn't make it back.

Well that would be the pinnacle of irresponsibility. If he were to do that he would be worthy of the levels of bile we regularly seen directed at Egwene.

Imagine organising an important conference, inviting everyone, then not showing up?

Of course I get what you are saying that he would go off intending to come back but he would have to be aware off the risk and to do so the night before the meeting would be pure idiocy.

Plus I thought he promised to stop doing that type of thing anymore - not that that has necessarily stopped him before - but it would kind of make a lie of the whole Rand Sedai thing.

Davian93
05-25-2011, 07:18 PM
Fair enough, T. I hadnt ever thought about the Seanchan and the Horn. Thanks.

Marie Curie 7
05-25-2011, 09:19 PM
The Seanchan — This is a big iffy one. Tuon plans to attack Tar Valon again, but no one is home, though she might try to steal the Horn. Notably, it's been a month since Tuon decided to attack the Tower again. Will she attack the Field of Merrilor instead? Or Caemlyn? The Camlann (and 'camlann') parallels would suggest a confusion between Caemlyn and Tar Valon, which might suggest simultaneous battles that in legend were merged into one battle. What about the Black Tower? I can see something like an Asha'man attack on the Tarasin Palace to incite Tuon to attack the Black Tower. Tuon could change her mind and decide to attack Illian; that would be a good distraction from Caemlyn and the Borderlands. Mat might face her there, though probably not till after Caemlyn. She might steal the Horn from the Tower and find that it doesn't work for them because only Mat can blow it. She seemed to indicate that the Horn is mentioned in her prophecies. In any case, it seems likely the Seanchan will be kicking around at the time of Merrilor/Caemlyn to confuse the issue, or rather to make it more interesting.

There is of course the Egwene/Seanchan woman dream that suggests some further interaction between the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan. If not a direct attack on Tar Valon by the Seanchan, it seems that at the very least both the Amyrlin and the Seanchan will play a key role in coming to some agreement to work together for the Last Battle, though this might be after Rand dies (and in my opinion, it probably will be).

looqas
05-27-2011, 01:25 AM
I'll throw in a thing I'm looking for. Birgitte dies during that battle.

I hope. She's funny as a character, but I'm looking for some real hurt to Light side (and to us readers too). We need some major damage to the Randland as we know it. Multiple kinswomen and Aes Sedai will not just suffice anymore. Someone we have grown emotionally attached to need to die (and not be raised again). It's about time to move from kids fantasy to adult fantasy.

Interesting thread and nice speculation. Very interesting indeed. And it would tie nicely if Dem was gholam's master that wanted Mat out of the picture more than anyone else.

sandoz12
05-27-2011, 01:44 AM
If Elayne were further along with her pregnancy then what I would like to see is her rushing back to lead her armies (for which there is much foreshadowing). In the battle she then gets mortally wounded causing her to go into premature labour from which come perfectly healthy babes.

The impact this would have on Rand would be fascinating to for him to find out that he is a father, his lover and bond-mate are dead, right as he is about to break the seals and die to save the world.

Would add much deeper levels of emotion and complexity to the whole situation.

But sadly this isn't a realistic scenario as much as I would like it to take place.

Terez
05-27-2011, 01:29 PM
There is of course the Egwene/Seanchan woman dream that suggests some further interaction between the Aes Sedai and the Seanchan. If not a direct attack on Tar Valon by the Seanchan, it seems that at the very least both the Amyrlin and the Seanchan will play a key role in coming to some agreement to work together for the Last Battle, though this might be after Rand dies (and in my opinion, it probably will be).
Yeah, the other dream about Rand confronting her and the Seanchan woman seems to suggest they will be on the same side by the time he returns from the dead. That's unlikely to happen before Merrilor. I'm thinking Merrilor has got to be a big red herring for the Dragon's Peace showdown. It will probably end up being nothing more than a hasty staging ground.

I'll throw in a thing I'm looking for. Birgitte dies during that battle.
Min's viewings seem to speak against it.

Interesting thread and nice speculation. Very interesting indeed. And it would tie nicely if Dem was gholam's master that wanted Mat out of the picture more than anyone else.
It's certainly possible, since it was tracking Mat, and Mat disappeared in Murandy. Good call; I might add that to the Demandred FAQ page.

Crispin's Crispian
05-27-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm thinking Merrilor has got to be a big red herring for the Dragon's Peace showdown. It will probably end up being nothing more than a hasty staging ground.

The more I think about it, the more this idea makes sense. Right now it seems like a convenient way to get everyone in the same place, and maybe someone will spout some platitudes, but in the end I can't see much happening there.

The lack of intervening information is frustrating, but I wonder if Rand met with Mat at some point prior. Rand is a competent general, but he's going to have to cede the reins to Mat when it comes to the armies' disposition. Somewhere Mat has to take charge and start planning, else it will be total chaos. Where better than Merrilor?

Terez
05-27-2011, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I had this idea of Mat setting up a gateway portal on the Field, kind of like a security room with all the TVs. Set up a few cannons, adjust gateways as needed, etc. With a hefty shield for Mat, of course.

Crispin's Crispian
05-27-2011, 04:00 PM
Yeah, I had this idea of Mat setting up a gateway portal on the Field, kind of like a security room with all the TVs. Set up a few cannons, adjust gateways as needed, etc. With a hefty shield for Mat, of course.

LOL! I think some of the fanboys just...um... Well you made them happy. ;)

That is actually a really cool idea. You could set up flanking attacks that way with absolutely no risk. Interesting...

Terez
05-27-2011, 04:06 PM
I'm reconsidering the Seanchan woman again; the one that confronts Rand with Egwene might be Seta or Bethamin, at Merrilor. (There might be time for some deliberating before all hell breaks loose.) Seta in particular is set up to become an Egwene-worshiper, just out of guilt. She held Egwene's collar more often than anyone other than Renna. And of course, Renna is dead; Egwene really needs to set Mat straight about that. But anyway, now Seta has channeled, so she'll likely beg Egwene to let her become a novice and to punish her for her previous cruelty to the Amyrlin.

But it could also be Egeanin, since of course there is a possibility that Egwene would not be quickly inclined to accept Seta, and Egeanin is already friends with Nynaeve and Elayne, both of whom finally came to respect and accept her (before she turned coat on the Seanchan, really). Some think she will be the Seanchan woman with the sword, too. She's probably the best possibility aside from Tuon; I like Tuon because I like the idea of her having Justice, and there's also the dream about the female hawk stretching out her wing to touch Egwene. That could be Berelain, though.

Crispin's Crispian
05-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Rand and Moridin — Egwene has a dream of Logain stepping over Rand's dead body to mount a black stone which probably represents the position of the M'Hael. This is presumably his glory. Since Logain is clearly pointed at the Black Tower, then it seems likely that Rand will die during the battle, maybe even before. He might not have to face Moridin at all for this to happen, but we can be pretty certain that the link between them will be important in some way. I think that link is why Rand's death is necessary, but I expect there to be a moment of uncertainty before his death where either Moridin gains control of Rand's body (this would be dramatic) or Rand's body is killed and Rand's soul is trapped in Moridin's body with no control.


I'm curious about Rand's thought that Cadsuane indirectly taught him that he is not supposed to be a weapon. The easy answer is that he realized he was supposed to be a sacrifice, but I wonder how that can play into the Moridin link and/or his death at Caemlyn if that's what happens.

Moreover, why does Rand have to sacrifice himself...or rather what is the mechanism by which that will re-seal the Bore? He told Egwene that both saidin and saidar would be needed. Is this why Alivia has to help him die?

<wild speculation>
There hasn't been much talk about which women will be Heroes of the Horn, just the three men. We've all speculated that either Rand will re-appear as called by the Horn of Valere, or Nynaeve will figure out how to rip him from the Dream World. What if Nynaeve is destined to be a Heroine of the Horn, and actually needs to be in Tel'aran'rhiod to help Rand seal the Bore? I'm thinking when Lan dies she'll want to die too, and Alivia will be conveniently on-hand to help out.
</wildness>

jana
05-27-2011, 04:19 PM
this whole thread makes me not want to read the book :P

I'm getting excited though, and it's 12+ months away :/

Terez
05-27-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm curious about Rand's thought that Cadsuane indirectly taught him that he is not supposed to be a weapon. The easy answer is that he realized he was supposed to be a sacrifice, but I wonder how that can play into the Moridin link and/or his death at Caemlyn if that's what happens.
Brandon says she still has more to teach him, and of course she has to teach the Asha'man something too. I don't put much stock into what Rand thinks about it, really. He might be right that this is the 'part of it' Brandon was talking about, but he isn't necessarily.

Moreover, why does Rand have to sacrifice himselfTo break the link with Moridin.

...or rather what is the mechanism by which that will re-seal the Bore?Why would you assume that his death will do that? Most of the prophecies indicate that Rand must die and be resurrected before he can save the world.

He told Egwene that both saidin and saidar would be needed.This might be true, but I suspect also that Tel'aran'rhiod will be needed.

Is this why Alivia has to help him die?I don't know that there is necessarily a reason why Alivia has to help him die. She's just going to.

What if Nynaeve is destined to be a Heroine of the Horn, and actually needs to be in Tel'aran'rhiod to help Rand seal the Bore? I'm thinking when Lan dies she'll want to die tooI speculated on this in my pre-TOM thread on the subject. But it's not as if Nynaeve can't go there without dying.

and Alivia will be conveniently on-hand to help out.
</wildness>Meh, I don't think Alivia's role will be incredibly central. I think she's also a bit of a red herring, and that she'll be one of many contributors to his death.

Crispin's Crispian
05-27-2011, 05:45 PM
Brandon says she still has more to teach him, and of course she has to teach the Asha'man something too. I don't put much stock into what Rand thinks about it, really. He might be right that this is the 'part of it' Brandon was talking about, but he isn't necessarily.
OK. That's not really my point. I'm not talking about this as the fulfillment of the viewing, just as a point of context.

To break the link with Moridin.
That could be it.

Why would you assume that his death will do that? Most of the prophecies indicate that Rand must die and be resurrected before he can save the world.Why not? In any case, I'm not assuming anything, I'm just speculating. He's supposed to shed his blood at Shayol Ghul to free us from the Shadow and give us the Light and wash away the Shadow, etc. But more specifically :

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.

It's not really a stretch to equate freeing us, saving us, washing us, etc. with sealing the Dark One away again.

This might be true, but I suspect also that Tel'aran'rhiod will be needed.
Oh definitely. You and I have agreed on that part for years. I don't know if Rand has any specific knowledge that leads him to say that to Egwene, though, or if he's just speculating because it didn't work with saidin alone. Also, this is why I tied it with Nynaeve in the first place, because I think she's going to be involved with any Dream World portion. Perrin and Egwene may, too, but who knows?

In any case, yes, she can get there without dying, but I think there's going to be something specific about Rand being Horn-dead.

I don't know that there is necessarily a reason why Alivia has to help him die. She's just going to.

Meh, I don't think Alivia's role will be incredibly central. I think she's also a bit of a red herring, and that she'll be one of many contributors to his death.

That's a little boring, but OK. Seems weird to point that out if she's just a bit player.

Terez
05-27-2011, 07:10 PM
It's not really a stretch to equate freeing us, saving us, washing us, etc. with sealing the Dark One away again.
Of course it's not, at least on the surface, which is why everyone has believed it for years. I'm saying that there are hints in the prophecies that it's not going to go down that way at all. The Dark Prophecy says his blood will bring 'the darkness so beautiful', and the 'twice dawns the day when his blood is shed' prophecy gives hints as to how the two might be resolved without contradiction. There's no good reason why Rand should have to die in order to seal the Dark One, anyway. Makes more sense for him to die to sever the link with Moridin; that way the reason is something practical rather than something along the lines of hand-waving.

That's a little boring, but OK. Seems weird to point that out if she's just a bit player.Seems weird to give a huge part like that to a bit player. That's why the red herring idea is less 'boring' to me.

ScoundrelTheToy
05-30-2011, 08:06 AM
Rand won't die at the battle of Caemlyn. He will appear to be dead, keyword being appear. The triple bond to Aviendha, Elayne and Min will save him when they're on the 'boat'. Nevertheless, everyone else will consider him dead; hence the Dark Prophecy of the Light losing all hope.

Therefore, his link to Moridin will not be broken. This falls in line with the "Into the heart he thrust his sword, into their hearts to bind them" etc. or however the wording goes. I wrote a theory on how AMOL's going to go down with most of the major details on thirteenth depository :rolleyes:. Cyndane is all over Rand so she's not going to be defending the dreamspike, that's Mogheidan and Slayer's territory along with some Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

Mat and Moiraine will go to Merrilor, arriving kinda late and everythings going to blow up from there. Mat will get the Horn from the Tower and see the Seanchan attacking, go to Tuon and get Tuon and Egwene to make peace in opposition to the Shadow. Then Mat will lead Egwene, Rand and Tuon to an alliance. Mat and Tuon, with the Seanchan forces and what's left of the Band will be the hammer that smashes Demandrad. That's it in a nutshull.

*The only pitfalls to the argument that Rand doesn't die are: the foreshadowing of Nynaeve bringing someone back from the dead and Mat and Perrin should be able to know that he's not dead. If Mat, Perrin, Aviendha, Elayne and Min know he's not dead, then the Light shouldn't lose all hope. So maybe he does really die and duex ex machina brings him back from the dead. That doesn't cope with the "Into the heart he thrust his sword" prophecy though in my eyes. So I guess we shall see; should be a great read nonetheless

Terez
05-30-2011, 08:41 AM
Rand won't die at the battle of Caemlyn. He will appear to be dead, keyword being appear.
The prophecies say otherwise (four separate ones say straight out he will die). That is far more compelling evidence that he will actually die than foreshadowing of Nynaeve.

The triple bond to Aviendha, Elayne and Min will save him when they're on the 'boat'.Is that before or after they burn his body on the 'pyre', or the 'bier'?

ScoundrelTheToy
05-30-2011, 09:23 PM
If I recall correctly, (i've been out of touch with WOT for a few months now so my memories fuzzy) but the funeral pyre thing never mentions who it is. It can be Rand or it can Lan. I think Nynaeve kneeling in a posture of grief over the bier (that's correct right? once again fuzzy memory) suggest to me at least, that that would be more prone to Lan's death.

Still, according to what I believe, the bond to Moridin can only be severed by one of their deaths and this happens only when they actually confront each other. This all lies on my belief in the "Into the heart (soul{Moridin and Rand's souls are tied or in prophecy terms...hearts} he thrust his sword. Into their heart he thrust the sword etc.". This prophecy is clearly referencing the battle of their souls (Rand and Moridin), because the hand that pulls the sword out is the victor (Rand of course).

Terez
05-30-2011, 10:00 PM
If I recall correctly, (i've been out of touch with WOT for a few months now so my memories fuzzy) but the funeral pyre thing never mentions who it is.
The bier does, which is corroborated by Egwene's dream of Logain, and also, there are three women in front of the pyre in the viewing which Min saw for Rand.

Heinz
05-31-2011, 10:51 AM
I'm reconsidering the Seanchan woman again; the one that confronts Rand with Egwene might be Seta or Bethamin, at Merrilor.

I've been considering General Tylee Kirgan recently. For a long time, the sword on the back of the woman in Egwene's dream made me think it would be Egeanin, and that still feels more right but that may only be because it's what I assumed/believed for years. I thought that Kirgan was being set up for a bit of an intermediary role in the last few scenes of her though, from post-battle with Perrin against the Shaido to her musings before and after her fight with trollocs.

Any particular reason for or against the Seanchan woman with Egwene being Tylee? I'm forgetting the details on all the Dreams. Or is it also possible that Tylee (or whomever you believe fits that particular Dream 'We can reach the top if we work together.') helps with some sort of agreement between Seanchan and the White Tower, and then the woman confronting Rand with Egwene is Tuon?

Terez
05-31-2011, 11:06 AM
I've been considering General Tylee Kirgan recently. For a long time, the sword on the back of the woman in Egwene's dream
That's a different dream, and might be a different woman.

Any particular reason for or against the Seanchan woman with Egwene being Tylee?
She doesn't have any particular reason to approach Egwene, unlike the others.

finnssss
05-31-2011, 11:54 AM
That's a different dream, and might be a different woman.


She doesn't have any particular reason to approach Egwene, unlike the others.

Except, as the people behind that particular theory believe that Tylee will be put in charge of leading the assault on the WT.

I believe it was Luckers (I know you'll correct me if I'm mistaken on the who) that brought forth the theory that the woman with the sword on her back isn't any one particular woman at all but simply represents the Seanchan army in General. An army with an Empress at its head.

Terez
05-31-2011, 12:12 PM
Eh, that's an old theory; many thought after TGS that it was fulfilled by the Seanchan attack, which helped Egwene officially gain the Seat. But Brandon said no.

Heinz
05-31-2011, 01:27 PM
I realize there are two different Dreams referenced here, though I wasn't clear on that in my post. Sorry for that.

We have a Dream of a Seanchan woman with a sword on her back reaching down to help Egwene up a mountain saying something to the effect of 'We can reach the top if we work together.'

We also have a Dream of "Rand confronting her (Egwene), and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.
" (Quote pulled from Dream list on Encyclopaedia WoT, actual Dream is from TDR Ch48.)

In the second Dream, as it is given, Rand confronts Egwene and the women with her, one of whom is Seanchan. That could be Tylee, Tuon, Egeanin, Seta, Bethamin, Alivia, or some other Seanchan for some other reason. That Dream is so lacking in details that I'm not sure you can rule anyone in or out with surety. You can try to link the Dream with others, and so explain the Seanchan in the confrontation, but since that Dream itself lacks any details it would be hard to say for certainty "this Dream and that context are linked, therefore the Seanchan woman is (insertnamehere)."

That isn't to say the Seanchan present doesn't end up being an important part of that meeting, just that we have nothing to go on so far in that Dream. The Seanchan present may end up being critical. Or they could be a bystander. It could be Bethamin or Seta, or Egeanin, but it could also be Tuon or Tylee or Alivia or another person I haven't thought of. There isn't a way to tell at this point.

As a result, I am more interested in the Seanchan helping Egwene up a mountain, as that seems more inclined to give clues to how the Seanchan and the White Tower reconcile enough for the Last Battle (assuming they do, in fact, reconcile to some degree, but I am working off that assumption being positive).

Is there anything for or against Tylee being the woman with the sword in the first Dream? I would expect the woman that helps Egwene 'reach the top of the mountain' is the one who helps Egwene reach some sort of arrangement with the Seanchan. At this point, Egeanin is an outcast and a traitor in Seanchan eyes. Tuon and Selucia sent her running in embarassment. Bethamin and Seta should be leashed decently, and even worse are training under marath'damane (sp?). There isn't a chance Tuon would listen to their words any more than she did Teslyn or Joline.

If our metaphorical mountain is trying to find some middle ground between Seanchan and the White Tower to allow them to fight the Last Battle together, I would think an honored general of the Blood, if Low Blood, would be in a far better position to assist such negotiations than the previous suspects. And here we find one who is impressed with one of Rand's childhood friends and chief lieutenants and has thoughts that they (the Seanchan) 'should not be fighting these people'. The agreement of these two may not even be as formal as a treaty, but a temporary truce to fight the Last Battle. Tylee did it once, making an agreement to achieve a common goal. If she is the general attacking Caemlyn/Tar Valon and sees another attack by trollocs, I would not find it a stretch for her to do it again.

Terez
05-31-2011, 01:56 PM
Egeanin is an outcast and a traitor in Seanchan eyes. Tuon and Selucia sent her running in embarassment.
This will most likely be resolved.

If our metaphorical mountain is trying to find some middle ground between Seanchan and the White Tower to allow them to fight the Last Battle together, I would think an honored general of the Blood, if Low Blood, would be in a far better position to assist such negotiations than the previous suspects.
I think it's unlikely because she has nothing to add to Egwene's main concern, which is the damane problem. Though I suppose she could rescue Egwene from being collared or some such.

ScoundrelTheToy
06-01-2011, 12:46 AM
I'll bet anyone anything that when AMOL comes out that:

1: The seanchan woman that approaches Egwene is Tuon. She has a sword strapped to her back, which is Matrim, duh! (lol).

2: The women that confront Rand is after the FOM goes to hell cuz Moiraine shows up and smashes Egwene's 'castle'. Then Egwene does something (fumes? heh) and Matrim brings Tuon to Egwene. Tuon and Egwene confront Rand, make an alliance, defeat the shadow and win.

This is why Matrim is the center of all. He is the 'string' that ties the three together, which would be Rand, Egwene and Tuon. It's really simple at this point. Also ask yourself, how many dreams, prophecies etc. have involved secondary and tertiary characters?

Terez
06-01-2011, 01:40 AM
I'll bet anyone anything that when AMOL comes out that:

1: The seanchan woman that approaches Egwene is Tuon. She has a sword strapped to her back, which is Matrim, duh! (lol).
The sword is more likely Justice.

2: The women that confront Rand is after the FOM goes to hell cuz Moiraine shows up and smashes Egwene's 'castle'. Then Egwene does something (fumes? heh) and Matrim brings Tuon to Egwene. Tuon and Egwene confront Rand, make an alliance, defeat the shadow and win.

This is why Matrim is the center of all. He is the 'string' that ties the three together, which would be Rand, Egwene and Tuon. It's really simple at this point. Also ask yourself, how many dreams, prophecies etc. have involved secondary and tertiary characters?
Obviously Mat's marriage to Tuon is important, and I think his absence had something to do with the dire future Aviendha saw; his emergence from Ghenjei was not incredibly likely at that point. But I think 'the center' comment mostly had to do with him generaling the battle, and I doubt that Mat will be the only hero of AMOL, despite what the fanboys want, and somehow I don't think Egwene vs Moiraine will happen. Resolving the damane issue will surely be more complicated than "Mat brings Tuon to Egwene".

arioch
06-02-2011, 03:42 PM
Just pointing out that the "top of the mountain" metaphor was used to describe the Seanchan political arena as part of the "path of daggers" metaphor, so whatever the Seanchan woman is helping Egwene with, it most likely has more to do with the Seanchan situation than with the actual war against the Shadow.

sleepinghour
06-02-2011, 05:26 PM
I think the woman with the sword is most likely Egeanin. She's on her way to Tar Valon already, and there was some foreshadowing back in TSR about her meeting Egwene:
She realized she had not told Egwene about Egeanin. Perhaps best not to stir up Egwene’s memories of her captivity. Nynaeve could remember all too well the other woman's nightmares for weeks after she was freed, waking up screaming that she would not be chained. Much the best to let it lie. It was not as if Egwene need ever meet the Seanchan woman.

This quote (from Nynaeve in tFoH) also sounds like a nod to the dream where Egwene's hanging from the edge of a cliff:
Egwene eagerly went her own way, not letting anyone or anything hold her back even if her way led over a cliff.

Kalli
09-05-2011, 05:29 AM
I was rereading Path of Daggers last night and found this little nugget from one of Egwene's dreams.

Rand wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him. Perrin and a Tinker, frenziedly hacking their way through brambles with axe and sword, unaware of the cliff that lay just ahead. And the brambles screamed with human voices they did not hear. Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set balance scales, and his decision depended....She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.



Kinda makes me think that Mat choosing to save Moiraine and not open Verin's letter means that Camelyn has to burn, so to speak, for the light to win. So maybe Verin underestimating Mat is not such a big deal...

I'm not so good at making WoT correlations but it clicked so loudly in my head I though I would share. :)

Terez
09-05-2011, 01:14 PM
I don't think Caemlyn needs to burn so much as Moiraine was infinitely more important.

Crispin's Crispian
09-06-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't think Caemlyn needs to burn so much as Moiraine was infinitely more important.

It doesn't have to burn in some Pattern-foretold way. It just has to burn because Mat chose Moiraine.

I'm not sure "not opening" Verin's letter seems dramatic enough to fulfill that one, but I like the idea.

Terez
09-06-2011, 03:27 PM
I don't see why it's not dramatic enough for you.

Crispin's Crispian
09-06-2011, 03:37 PM
I don't see why it's not dramatic enough for you.

Because it doesn't involve Patrick Stewart?

Maybe dramatic was the wrong word to use. I don't think Mat's choice of not opening the letter seems to satisfy putting Verin on a balance scale. But maybe it does.

Terez
09-06-2011, 03:40 PM
It's more about following her instructions. He had better things to do.

GonzoTheGreat
09-06-2011, 03:42 PM
I don't think Mat's choice of not opening the letter seems to satisfy putting Verin on a balance scale.How much does Verin weigh? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU)

Rand al'Fain
09-06-2011, 06:52 PM
How much does Verin weigh? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU)
There's a reason why you don't see any scales for humans in the White Tower...

Lupusdeusest
09-06-2011, 07:49 PM
Well, we know she is fairly "stout", so we can take a comparison value for her height from another point in the series and use the BMI for "stout"...

With or without notebooks?

The Unreasoner
09-06-2011, 09:36 PM
Well, we know she is fairly "stout", so we can take a comparison value for her height from another point in the series and use the BMI for "stout"...

With or without notebooks?

Have you ever seen a witch without spellbooks?

Lupusdeusest
09-07-2011, 05:52 AM
Have you ever seen a witch without spellbooks?

...You have a point.
Perhaps we should also consider an estimation of the quantity of ink on her nose.



(Side note: I wonder if she ever deliberately considered how much spilled ink was the correct quantity to indicate absent-mindedness and how far this could be pushed before carelessness was instead communicated.)

GonzoTheGreat
09-07-2011, 06:24 AM
So you're saying that whereas a new Green would get lessons in applying make up, a new Brown would get lessons in applying spilled ink?
Makes one wonder what the White would be taught, doesn't it?

Lupusdeusest
09-07-2011, 09:57 PM
So you're saying that whereas a new Green would get lessons in applying make up, a new Brown would get lessons in applying spilled ink?
Makes one wonder what the White would be taught, doesn't it?

Well, judging by the ivy-interiored balcony of that White/Black sister we saw, I'd say topiary.

Tamyrlin
09-07-2011, 10:43 PM
You appear to have acquired followers or admirers or both. Have you been procreating?

Sodas
09-17-2011, 09:00 PM
Rand will not die in Caemlyn.

Terez
09-17-2011, 09:48 PM
Trolling, are we?

Rand al'Fain
09-17-2011, 11:32 PM
Trolling, are we?

Well, according to the prophecy, his blood needs to be on the rocks at Shayol Ghul. How literal it means that, we won't truly know until we read about it, but so far, the prophecies have been pretty literal in their meaning. So, unless something really weird happens at Caemlyn, it doesn't look like Rand will die.

And no, not trolling, simply pointing a part of the prophecy that really seems to indicate that if Rand dies anywhere, it will most likely be at Shayol Ghul.

Terez
09-18-2011, 12:25 AM
Ah, so Rand al'Fain is an alt account for Sodas? That explains a lot.

Sodas
09-18-2011, 12:37 AM
You are as right about that as you are right about Rand dying in Caemlyn. Which is to say, you're wrong.

Rand will be mortally wounded at Caemlyn. But he will survive to be brought on the boat to Tar'Valon by the 3 women.

Terez
09-18-2011, 12:45 AM
I think your sarcasm meter must be broken. In any case, I'm not so sure he'll be mortally wounded in Caemlyn - I just think it will be concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn. Though of course it's possible. RJ doesn't do direct parallels, so it's very doubtful the boat will carry Rand to Tar Valon. Much more likely, the three women are important because they have to bond him to save him after he's ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Which of course means that he'll actually die, like the various prophecies promise.

Rand al'Fain
09-18-2011, 12:55 AM
Ah, so Rand al'Fain is an alt account for Sodas? That explains a lot.

Wow. First time I've ever been accused of being a multi. You're wrong of course, but then you'll accuse me of trolling you again. Despite only disagreeing with your theories. But of course, it's because I haven't been on here for 10+ years, right?

Anyways, back on topic, despite Terez steering it otherwise, I don't see Rand dying at Caemlyn. I'm not even sure if he'll take part. Elayne will probably come back with a substantial force, unite with the Band outside of the city, maybe some merc bands as well, and then fight back against the Trollocs. Rand had that dream with Lanfear, and then the book ended. So, hard to say what he'll do there, considering his views on protecting women. Plus, not many other forces (considering Rand is a force all by himself) can repel these massive Trolloc hordes that are invading everywhere. And Rand's abilities are more useful out on battlefield rather than in the middle of a city.

Sodas
09-18-2011, 01:00 AM
RJ doesn't do direct parallels

Oh he did. It's just that you're looking for The Gospels, and he was rewriting Arthurian Legend. I personally loved his take on the Sword and the Stone.

Terez
09-18-2011, 01:58 AM
Wow. First time I've ever been accused of being a multi. You're wrong of course, but then you'll accuse me of trolling you again. Despite only disagreeing with your theories. But of course, it's because I haven't been on here for 10+ years, right?
No, it's because I asked Sodas a question, and you answered it as if I had been talking to you. I wasn't. That simple.

Terez
09-18-2011, 02:15 AM
Oh he did. It's just that you're looking for The Gospels, and he was rewriting Arthurian Legend. I personally loved his take on the Sword and the Stone.
The Sword in the Stone is, of course, another great example of the fact that RJ doesn't do direct parallels. Hence his mixing of Jesus, Arthur, Tyr, Thor, etc. to make Rand. Yes, the three women on the boat is a reference to Arthurian legend. It's also a reference to the Perun legends (http://perun.ca/Stories.aspx):

The Slavonic tales abound in accounts of how a dead hero is restored to life by means of this precious liquid, which is sometimes brought by the Whirlwind, the Thunder, and the Hail, sometimes by their types the Raven, the Hawk, the Eagle, and the Dove. But they differ from most of the similar stories in this respect. They have two species of what is called the "strong" or the "heroic" water. The one is called "the dead water" (mertvaya voda); the other the "living [or vivifying] water" (zhivaya voda). Contrary to its name, however, the dead water does not bring death; rather, it makes mutilated bodies whole, and heals wounds. But unlike live water, it does not possess the power of resurrection. Folktales are replete with motifs of dead and live water. Like the spring rains which first melt the earth, purify her, make her whole, while the following rains resurrect her, the dead hero too is first sprinkled with dead water, and then with live water, before he comes to life again. When that has been done, the corpse first shudders and then sits up, usually remarking "How long I have been asleep?" or "Oh, did I sleep too long?"

What is the source of these waters? This brings us to the arbor mundi, the world tree. There, in the centre of the universe stands the oak tree, on its top sits the bird of paradise, the eagle, under its roots lies the snake demon. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Two springs flow out from under the tree; one of live water, and the other of dead water. Near the springs sit three women, the fortune tellers. One knows the past, the other the future, and the third, the present. They decide what should be and what should not be, and the fate of every being. They bring death or life, and continuously work over the creation of the world (Here I may add that one of the magical values of live water is that it imparts wisdom and power to tell the future).
Not a direct parallel, but a reference. Since Rand didn't actually pull the sword out of the rock itself, Callandor is not a direct Excalibur parallel. Narishma did that. Furthermore, there is another Excalibur parallel - Justice.

Therefore, the boat scenario is not going to be the same as the Arthur scenario. Nicola notes one difference - Rand has actually died, though he 'yet lives'. The most logical explanation is that he died and was resurrected by one of the few known methods of resurrection - a method that was foreshadowed multiple times in the books. The boat might be headed to Tar Valon - who knows? But they're obviously not going to take him there to be Healed; that would be too direct for RJ. And of course, Moiraine isn't one of the three on the boat, but she's the best Morgan le Fay parallel. She needs to be tied to his death somehow, and the foreshadowing suggests she will actually kill him.

The Unreasoner
09-18-2011, 02:18 AM
@Rand al'Fain
As someone who is often accused of having a multi ID, know that I can sympathize with you here. However, in this case, I read your post as Terez did.*

Sodas clearly wasn't trolling, as I understand the term. But his post did really lack content, and he is lucky that he is a HotH.

On Rand dying during/in Caemlyn, I am strongly against it. It is thematically incompatible with Maradon, and the general themes of the story. Strictly considering the WoT chronology sans theme, it is possible, maybe even slightly likely, but not necessary. Dying during the Battle of Caemlyn may be both inevitable and inconsequential.

*I wonder what the most conservative estimate of unique TL posters is. Who are the 'real' posters?

Terez
09-18-2011, 02:20 AM
On Rand dying during/in Caemlyn... It is thematically incompatible with Maradon, and the general themes of the story.
Oh really? Which themes are those?

Sodas
09-18-2011, 03:13 AM
The Sword in the Stone is, of course, another great example of the fact that RJ doesn't do direct parallels.

Lol, the stories run similiar enough to each other. The stories that Rand makes, are what would become the stories of Arthurian Legend when our Age comes again they are so similiar.

Did Rand pull a Sword from the Stone? Yes.

It matters little that it wasn't Excalibur because the stories will still tell the next 1st Age that Arthur pulled the sword from the stone.

The story isn't going to be exactly the same, no doubt. But the stories are what "we" the 1st Age, will come to know, so they are guidelines for what will happen. Arthur would be mortally wounded at Camlann by Modred and be taken to Avalon to be healed. The names and places may change, but they are the parallel to the story of Rand.

What happens in between? That's up for BS to now fill in.

Therefore, the boat scenario is not going to be the same as the Arthur scenario. Nicola notes one difference - Rand has actually died, though he 'yet lives'.

Not that it matters, but that has nothing to do with what happens in Caemlyn. Rand's death and "resurrection"* should take place at Shayol Ghul, not Caemlyn. Rand must ultimately shed his blood upon the rocks of SG and inside. If he succeeds in sealing the Bore, he should lose his Ta'varen status making him fair game in Caemlyn.

*obviously, i don't believe he will be ripped from T'A'R

Sodas
09-18-2011, 03:18 AM
@Rand al'Fain
As someone who is often accused of having a multi ID, know that I can sympathize with you here. However, in this case, I read your post as Terez did.*

Sodas clearly wasn't trolling, as I understand the term. But his post did really lack content, and he is lucky that he is a HotH.

On Rand dying during/in Caemlyn, I am strongly against it. It is thematically incompatible with Maradon, and the general themes of the story. Strictly considering the WoT chronology sans theme, it is possible, maybe even slightly likely, but not necessary. Dying during the Battle of Caemlyn may be both inevitable and inconsequential.

*I wonder what the most conservative estimate of unique TL posters is. Who are the 'real' posters?

brevity is the soul of wit

Terez
09-18-2011, 03:20 AM
Lol, the stories run similiar enough to each other. The stories that Rand makes, are what would become the stories of Arthurian Legend when our Age comes again they are so similiar.
Yes, but RJ has said a thousand times that he wants to make it so that the characters in the books wouldn't even recognize their stories in Arthurian legend (or any of the other myths and legends).

Did Rand pull a Sword from the Stone? Yes.And most people didn't even notice the parallel to Excalibur at first. It's common knowledge now, but not something many people picked up on, because it wasn't a direct parallel.

Not that it matters, but that has nothing to do with what happens in Caemlyn. Rand's death and "resurrection"* should take place at Shayol Ghul, not Caemlyn. Why? None of the prophecies about his blood on the rocks say that he will die, and considering that there are at least four prophecies about his death, and several more about his blood on the rocks, it's hard to believe that's not significant. Also, at the point of the Foretelling by Nicola, he has already died, but the future still hangs in the balance and apparently depends on Rand's return.

Rand must ultimately shed his blood upon the rocks of SG and inside. If he succeeds in sealing the Bore, he should lose his Ta'varen status making him fair game in Caemlyn. Everything Brandon has said on Twitter and everything in the books indicates that Caemlyn will be one of the first things to happen in the book. Much of the Black Tower action was originally planned to be at the end of TOM, but Brandon decided it wouldn't fit. Furthermore, it would be ridiculous to have Rand manage to save the day without dying, and then have him die anyway for no reason at all. His death has to be important.

Sodas
09-18-2011, 04:03 AM
1. I didn't say anything about the characters. I said us, the "1st Age." You seemed to the miss the point here.

2. When book 3 came out, it was blatant. I don't know what WOT fans you talked to.

3. I honestly don't think Rand will die, or needs to die, at SG, but it could happen.

4. Everything Brandon has said on Twitter and everything in the books indicates that Caemlyn will be one of the first things to happen in the book.

I would expect that considering it's the last thing in the prior book.

I also expect Rand to deal with the Bore, since that is what he has everyone gathered to do.

It's just natural to think Rand will do what he has told us he is going to to do first, which is the Bore. That means Caemlyn for him will have to come after. Doesn't mean that the fighting in Caemlyn won't be vital throughout the beginning of AMOL.

Furthermore, it would be ridiculous to have Rand manage to save the day without dying, and then have him die anyway for no reason at all. His death has to be important.

Still don't believe he has to die as a result of Caemlyn either. He could fake his own death, like some Arthurian legends....

Terez
09-18-2011, 04:50 AM
1. I didn't say anything about the characters. I said us, the "1st Age." You seemed to the miss the point here.
Rather, you are missing the point. You think that Rand is going to be taken to Tar Valon on a boat to be Healed. Obviously, he would recognize that in the Arthur legends. Therefore, it goes against what RJ said about his reverse-engineering of legends.

When book 3 came out, it was blatant. I don't know what WOT fans you talked to.
Multiple net WoT fans and even Harriet said it 'slipped up' on them, usually long after TDR. Find me a post of you saying otherwise back then, and maybe I'll believe you, but according to everyone else, it was quite subtle (despite being one of the more blatant parallels in the series).

I also expect Rand to deal with the Bore, since that is what he has everyone gathered to do.
Has he? It seems he's rather gathered everyone to force the Dragon's Peace, or something like it, but 1) events at Caemlyn won't wait for him, and 2) he's missing a rather large component of his peace so long as Tuon is against him.

It's just natural to think Rand will do what he has told us he is going to to do first, which is the Bore.
Despite evidence to the contrary. Par for the course, I must admit.

Still don't believe he has to die as a result of Caemlyn either. He could fake his own death, like some Arthurian legends....
Except that four prophecies say he will die.

The Unreasoner
09-18-2011, 05:21 AM
brevity is the soul of wit
Lol sure, but it doesn't take a HotH to recognize that responding to a Terez theory with:
Rand will not die in Caemlyn.
will never be brief.

It's just the beginning.
Lol.

While RJ didn't generally do direct parallels, the Callandor/Stone is, to me, nearly a perfect one to one mapping. Having other candidates for Excalibur (like Justice) does not make this less true. And at the moment, Callandor is far superior to Justice as a thematic equivalent.

But Terez is clearly correct that the parallels are not generally direct, at least as far as using parallels for predictive purposes. Although I would agree with you, Sodas, that the mutating nature of information in WoT makes such lines hard to draw. And, naturally, non-direct parallels are not automatically useless as predictive information, they are just harder to appropriaely deconstruct. In any case, it is impractical to understand the "boat" if one key piece of evidence used is the nature of RJ's mythological parallels. 'Generally not direct' is not 'never direct', most people missing a parallel is not evidence for the parallel being indirect, and even definitely indirect parallels may be effectively direct with regards to a single theory.

Also, it is a wonder that I predicted the ultimate lack of brevity in your respose, but failed to see this coming:
Oh really? Which themes are those?

I could go into more detail, but they generally fall along these lines:

1. The Battle of Caemlyn isn't Rand's battle, while another is
2. Perfect Design/Best of all Possible Worlds (almost straight from Leibniz) is key in WoT: The DO is not the equal and opposite of the Creator, but of humanity. A minor extrapolation indicates that if Caemlyn needs to be saved, the Pattern will provide a way (Talmanes, the Band, possibly Mat's return). Rand is overkill, and does not belong there. In fact, the more powerful Rand becomes, the more he appears to seek Creator-like non-involvement. The Pattern is fine on its own, and should not need the Dragon except to counter the DO (and, as Rand seemed to say in Maradon: whatever the Pattern needs; it cannot expect aid from the Dragon).
3. 'Sufficient cause' seems to demand a role for Mat greater than one he has already played. While he has used his gifts/talents effectively to aid his quests so far, it has generally come across slightly redundant, or insignificant. He needs a real purpose, and Caemlyn provides one.
4. Ruler knows best: Maybe a sort of monarchism. But Caemlyn is Elayne's responsibility. And Rand Sedai will likely not presume to know better than Elayne, or insult her by trying to keep her out of danger.
5. Let it burn: Take what you want, and pay for it/the Last Battle is paramount, and all other concerns are secondary. Why selfishly save Caemlyn, if the world is at risk? It is just like the stereotypical WoT politician: nominally good, but short-sighted and selfish.



Obviously the Battle of Caemlyn is a major part of AMoL. Rand is central as well. But there doesn't need to be that much overlap.

Terez
09-18-2011, 05:29 AM
I could go into more detail, but they generally fall along these lines:

1. The Battle of Caemlyn isn't Rand's battle, while another is
Sure, but one of the themes of the series is that Rand will do anything for love, and if Elayne is freaking about Caemlyn, no doubt he'll want to help. Aside from that, there's still the merge to deal with and the possibility of Dark Rand.

2. Perfect Design/Best of all Possible Worlds (almost straight from Leibniz) is key in WoT: The DO is not the equal and opposite of the Creator, but of humanity.
Yes, but none of that will prevent Rand from dying in Caemlyn, or concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn.

3. 'Sufficient cause' seems to demand a role for Mat greater than one he has already played.
Yes, but none of that prevents Rand from dying in Caemlyn, or concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn. Mat will no doubt general the battle, but Rand is either going to be evil or he's going to do something stupid, and that doesn't prevent Mat from playing his role in the slightest.

Ruler knows best: Maybe a sort of monarchism. But Caemlyn is Elayne's responsibility. And Rand Sedai will likely not presume to know better than Elayne, or insult her by trying to keep her out of danger.
Now that's just stupid.

Let it burn: Take what you want, and pay for it/the Last Battle is paramount, and all other concerns are secondary. Why selfishly save Caemlyn, if the world is at risk?
Because there's more to it than just Caemlyn - namely the Black Tower, and the fact that this battle seems to be the Shadow's main offensive for AMOL. Or, to put it more eloquently:

"You go," Rand said. "Egwene —"

"You fool!" Ingtar snapped. "We have what we came for. The Horn of Valere. The hope of salvation. What can one girl count, even if you love her, alongside the Horn, and what it stands for?"

"The Dark One can have the Horn for all I care! What does finding the Horn count if I abandon Egwene to this? If I did that, the Horn couldn't save me. The Creator couldn't save me. I would damn myself."

Marie Curie 7
09-18-2011, 01:08 PM
Multiple net WoT fans and even Harriet said it 'slipped up' on them, usually long after TDR. Find me a post of you saying otherwise back then, and maybe I'll believe you, but according to everyone else, it was quite subtle (despite being one of the more blatant parallels in the series).

I love the story about Harriet figuring out that Rand taking Callandor was meant to be a parallel to Arthur pulling the sword from the stone. I just happened to be reading it again today:

Netherlands tour, Leiden April 2001 - report by Aan'allein (http://members.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Leiden.html)

RJ: I don't know how it is in other places, but the best known legend for the American audience, that I had in mind ... when I wrote this for ... that legend is King Arthur. I would imagine that more people know the complete story of King Arthur and Guenever and the round table and the whole nine yards than know any other myth or legend, or perhaps more than know all the other myths put together.

RJ: Now there are Arthurian elements in these books, but I had to try to bury them, for that reason, make them not so readily apparent. And while I had a particular part of the Arthurian legend mentioned form the first book, it was not until the third book that people began to realize what it was. In fact my editor, who is my wife, and who is a very very sharp woman uhm, had edited the book and was writing the first version of the flap copy for the book, when she suddenly shouted down the stairs to me (if you're young, forgive me):

Harriet: [loud] You son of a bitch, you've done it it to me again! [laughter]

RJ: Because she had suddenly spotted, not until reaching this... not until reaching the cover flap, she suddenly spotted by a... chance connection of words, this one particular Arthurian thing.

Terez
09-18-2011, 02:10 PM
Good timing. :)

The Unreasoner
09-18-2011, 09:37 PM
Sure, but one of the themes of the series is that Rand will do anything for love, and if Elayne is freaking about Caemlyn, no doubt he'll want to help. Aside from that, there's still the merge to deal with and the possibility of Dark Rand.

We are all fools for love.
But in WoT, the women seem to generally account for the more pragmatic half (or three quarters/two thirds) of any relationship. If only by a hair (Egwene/Gawyn). So to say that Elayne will start 'freaking' is just not consistent with her gender ideal (even if Elayne herself has thrown a few frivolous tantrums). Elayne is not stupid, she has Birgitte, and she has Min's viewings (which Rand is plausibly aware of. Even if it doesn't provide invincibility, it does offer something). She would not be in substantially greater damage in a base camp outside Caemlyn than she would be at Merrilor, unless the area of a Dreamspike can be adjusted to an extent greater than I would have thought possible (and, "that's a good question," does not mean, "yes, the Dreamspike at the Black Tower will be used to pin forces at Caemlyn,"). I don't quite doubt that the Dreamspike can be used as you theorize though-I just doubt it will be the Shadow's Ace in the hole you make it out to be. It seems that unless the Shayol Ghul Strike Force is split up, with some members pinned in Caemlyn, it won't make a real difference. And as Rand knows of the Dreamspike, he probably wont risk sending anyone he needs to Caemlyn (and as he most likely knows about the adjustable area of effect, he may even warn Elayne to keep a safe distance as well).

Rand likely will want to help. But why can't it be by sending a good chunk of the Merrilor forces? I have said elsewhere that I think that the actual physical battlefield for Tarmon Gaidon will be Tarwin's Gap and Caemlyn (and Shayol Ghul, but I think Shayol Ghul is a different sort of battlefield, and might only be fought by the Maidens and the siswai'aman. But this is another issue entirely). Even if you think Merrilor is a "red herring" (and even if it ultimately is), what was the Pattern's point of gathering all of the world's forces in one location, if not to allocate them?

And on 'Dark Rand'...
Let's assume it will actually be a real thing and issue (so not just a few moments of uncertainty during the merge itself).
Why Caemlyn? He would be more effective without opposing male channelers, and taking out Ebou Dar would be a huge victory for the Shadow. We even had a glimpse of how Dark Rand might go about doing it.

The motivations for this hypothetical 'Dark Rand' are not clear, and neither is its purpose. You have explained to some extent what it is, and how it will come about (although you do not seem to have decided where or when yet. In the context of some theories, he might wake up at Merrilor as 'Dark Rand', but this one seems to have Rand 'turn' after his love for Elayne still calls a few last shots). But the why is notably absent. And it may be an issue of perceived primacy: you see it as the reason Rand must die (and as such, is inevitable), while to me it seems as though 'Dark Rand' is an attempt to force significance into the prophecies. Rand is going to die, and he needs to die. This is fact. But if the reason for the death is to settle the issue of 'Dark Rand', then 'Dark Rand' must play a unique and fundamental role. One more basic than the death it causes, and evident when the death was first Foretold. It seems to me that 'Dark Rand' is a sufficiently vague hypothetical suggested by some of your theories that you have made into a common theme for all of your predictions. Even some where it wasn't necessary. While this does allow your theories to more efficiently build off of one another, it also requires a stricter definition of 'Dark Rand' than the text suggests. Which has led to some of your positions being entirely derived from hypotheticals. Like the idea that 'Dark Rand' explains the death. While it does, it is far from the only explanation, or even the simplest. Rand's death will have meaning. We do not need to force it.
Because there's more to it than just Caemlyn - namely the Black Tower, and the fact that this battle seems to be the Shadow's main offensive for AMOL. Or, to put it more eloquently:
"You go," Rand said. "Egwene —"

"You fool!" Ingtar snapped. "We have what we came for. The Horn of Valere. The hope of salvation. What can one girl count, even if you love her, alongside the Horn, and what it stands for?"

"The Dark One can have the Horn for all I care! What does finding the Horn count if I abandon Egwene to this? If I did that, the Horn couldn't save me. The Creator couldn't save me. I would damn myself."

Good points, and a great quote. I will say again that Rand can be a fool for love and do his duty, especially if Elayne doesn't go to Caemlyn in person. Or if Rand is sufficiently conviced that Elayne is safe in the hands of the forces she takes to Caemlyn. And here at least, Rand is not aware that he is the hope of salvation. Another might save Elayne, or she may not need saving, or she will die and live again; if Rand does not help. Nothing permanently horrible. But if Rand choosing to help her leads to the Dark One's victory, she (and everyone else) is permanently screwed. By the Dark One.

I agree that there is more than Caemlyn. But there is 'other' than Caemlyn as well. And there is other than Rand. Rand is not necessary to solve every problem. Off of the top of my head, Caemlyn could very possibly have has Talmanes, the Band, Mat, Elayne, Birgitte and the Horn. That should be sufficient to stop the invasion. Once Mat arrives, and if he has the Horn, it may end as easily as the Battle of Minas Tirith did. In the movie. Which is not to say Caemlyn won't go through hell until then. The garrison of Kinswomen might buy some time though.
The drama over the aquisition of the Horn itself might be enough for the Battle of Caemlyn to satisfy. While 'artifact delivery' doesn't pack the same kind of punch 'fallen savior' does as the central issue of the battle; 'waiting for Rand' does not do Ituralde's defense of Maradon much credit either, even if it accurately describes much of the situation.
However:
Mat will no doubt general the battle, but Rand is either going to be evil or he's going to do something stupid, and that doesn't prevent Mat from playing his role in the slightest.
I just don't see why. At all. At least with respect to Caemlyn. Maybe, as you believe, breaking the Seals is a bad idea. I don't think it is, or at least not yet. Maybe I will object to the details (like, idk, if Rand wants to break them by tossing them into the Pit of Doom or something). But maybe breaking the Seals at all is in fact a stupid idea.

But why does Rand need to screw up in Caemlyn? If it again comes down to: 'Rand needs to screw up so his death will have meaning', I again think that this is the wrong way to go about it. And I am not 'trolling', in all honesty I do not see why this is such a certainty to you. If there is some key point I missed, I would be glad to consider it. But, the fact that a large part of AMoL is likely concerned with Caemlyn and the Black Tower does not mean that Rand has a role to play at either. Caemlyn has its possible heroes, and the Black Tower may as well: Androl and his lovable band of misfits, constantly bullied by the popular jocks picked for Taim's team; Logain and his 'glory to come', glory few men even dream of; and Pevara, because every horror movie needs someone to survive the ordeal, or else who would tell the story later?

I looked for a specific quote, but I had some difficulty finding it in the database. In any case it was of RJ explaining how the focus of the later books seemed to shift away from Rand. The gist (iirc) seemed to be: 'no one does it all; heroes stand on shoulders; myths ignore the roles of secondary characters, whatever is done by several people might end up credited to only one; and the story is about humanity vs evil, not Creator vs evil, or even Creator's champion vs evil.'

In any case, I found another quote:
"Well, you saved the city," Bashere said.

"Not soon enough," Rand said. Min could feel his sorrow. "And my actions today may still have been a mistake."

Min frowned. "Why?"

It came too close to a confrontation between us," Rand said. "That must happen at Shayol Ghul, and at the right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me. Bashere is right. Nor can I afford to let the men assume that I will always be able to step in and save them."

Perhaps," Bashere said. "But what you did today . . ."

Rand shook his head. "I am not to fight this war, Bashere. Today's battle exhausted me beyond what I should have allowed. If my enemies were to come upon me now, I'd be finished. Besides, I can only fight in one place at a time. What is coming will be grander than that, grander and more terrible than any one man could hope to hold back. I will organize you, but I must leave you. The war will be yours."

Now moving on...
Now that's just stupid.
You know, if your post hadn't come across as offensive and overly dismissive, I wouldn't have bothered replying. A simple "I hear what you are saying, and acknowledge the potential validity and significance of it. However, I completely disagree. (and this is why...)" would have been fine. Even without the 'why'.

But you took the 'insulting and dismissive' route, so I now feel compelled to defend my case.

Specifically on the point that quote was in response too, it was far from stupid. Other than the constant references to the obligations of the nobility (notably from Faile and Tuon, but there really are many examples), there are numerous accounts of how the local authority takes ultimate responsibility for his or her charge. Moiraine, telling Rand to observe the chain of command. Alliandre, seeking a specific solution to her nation's unique situation. Tuon, giving Beslan a sort of autonomy (with purpose). Nobles are held accountable for their people's general welfare, as Faile drives home. And, almost consistently, allowing someone else to take care of one's responsibility has been seen in a negative light, or at least as the implicit acceptance of the other's authority. Sahalle and Samitsu, in Cairhien. Vanin (and Mat) with Elayne. Romanda (and almost every other Aes Sedai) with the Anaiya investigations (or anything with a presumed underling, really). The Sitters and Egwene, with the Sitters yielding authority generally because of needing to yield authority specifically. Egwene hated asking Rand for advice on Traveling. Extreme examples: damane and da'covale.

Elayne did not want Rand to 'give her' the throne. She did not want his troops to aid her in the war. She did not even consider a loan of Legionaries as a low or no cost (to her) source of mercenaries (the exact nature of the deal could have been kept secret, even from the Legionaries). She did not ask Rand or Taim for Asha'man to provide gateways for food. She didn't even use the Aiel and the Legion in a way similar to the Borederlanders: give them the right to remain in Andor (as an Aes Sedai), while have them camp uncofortably near Arymilla (so that any attack by Arymilla might be initially seen as an attack against the Aiel or the Legion) or between Ellorien and Co. and Caemlyn. Even just being in Andor, and out of the way might have helped her: the Aiel and the Legion are two very immediate reminders of the Dragon and his power (and his thoughts on the Lion Throne).

In any case, people very easily could have died for this stubborn pride. But thematically, her position seemed to be the correct one. And will continue to be. So Elayne will (at least want to) save Caemlyn herself. And she should. And she can- aside from the assets I already noted, she also has a new alliance: Cairhien, Ghealdan, the Children, the Two Rivers, and possibly Mayene will go to Andor's aid. And all of these people can help without treading on Elayne's authority.

So my point does not actually seem to be a stupid one. But if we are lighting matches, I will point out that you responded to my points of:
if Caemlyn needs to be saved, the Pattern will provide a way (Talmanes, the Band, possibly Mat's return). Rand is overkill, and does not belong there. In fact, the more powerful Rand becomes, the more he appears to seek Creator-like non-involvement. The Pattern is fine on its own, and should not need the Dragon except to counter the DO (and, as Rand seemed to say in Maradon: whatever the Pattern needs; it cannot expect aid from the Dragon).
And
3. 'Sufficient cause' seems to demand a role for Mat greater than one he has already played. While he has used his gifts/talents effectively to aid his quests so far, it has generally come across slightly redundant, or insignificant. He needs a real purpose, and Caemlyn provides one.
With ridiculous uses of "concurrent":
Yes, but none of that will prevent Rand from dying in Caemlyn, or concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn.
And
Yes, but none of that prevents Rand from dying in Caemlyn, or concurrent with the Battle of Caemlyn.
And then you went on to bring up 'Dark Rand' as a possible solution for my issue with Mat's sufficient cause.

In any case, regarding 'none of that prevents': of course it does, or at the least it is a point against, provided you do not think Rand has a role to play at Caemlyn. If he does have a role, then it does the opposite. Which raises the question: if 'Dark Rand' exists to provide a reason for Rand's death, there must be sufficient cause for the Pattern to create 'Dark Rand': What is it? How does 'Dark Rand' benefit the Pattern? If it is simply to create a motive for Moiraine to balefire him, then the Pattern must have needed Rand to be balefired regardless, so again: why?

And again, the use of the word "concurrent" is confusing to me. I'm not sure anyone, however they feel about your theories, would disagree that Rand could very possibly die while Caemlyn is being fought over. Rand's death is coming, and so is a battle in Caemlyn. Concurrently means simultaneous, and independent of one another. Rand could independently die at Shayol Ghul while Caemlyn is being fought over. And there wouldn't really be any connection between the two events.




Basically:
Caemlyn, the Black Tower, and Rand all will feature heavily in AMoL. This does not mean there needs to be much (or any) overlap.

Rand seems to think a Creator-like non-involvement is responsible for him (interestingly, only once he began to approach the Creator in his power). While he might act 'irresponsibly' with Caemlyn, it would be an odd final note to Rand's deeds in the Third Age, and would have disturbing metaphysical implications for the WoT universe.

'Dark Rand' seems to be a great tool for argument, and for exploring potential scenarios. But concerning the evidence for the hypothetical itself, I am under the impression that it is largely based on its usefulness in debate, and on the consistency it provides your theories. Being the simplest possible way to tie your predictions together is not evidence. Now, if I am mistaken, I would gladly hear the case for 'Dark Rand'. But in general, I see positions and interpretations that are codependant ('Dark Rand' is the reason Rand is a 'Broken' Wolf, Rand is a 'Broken' Wolf becauese he is 'Dark Rand'; 'Dark Rand' is why Rand needs to die, Rand needs to die because he is 'Dark Rand').

Sodas
09-18-2011, 10:45 PM
Rather, you are missing the point. You think that Rand is going to be taken to Tar Valon on a boat to be Healed. Obviously, he would recognize that in the Arthur legends.

If this is your point, then I disagree. It's not obvious he would know that legend. Heck, if you could show me Rand knowing Arthurian legend, then I'll think twice. Till then, you should have your vocabulary striped of the word obvious.

Multiple net WoT fans and even Harriet said it 'slipped up' on them, usually long after TDR. Find me a post of you saying otherwise back then, and maybe I'll believe you, but according to everyone else, it was quite subtle (despite being one of the more blatant parallels in the series).

I read TDR before Theoryland existed. And it was apparent to me and many of my friends before we ever came online.

You seriously need to get out more.

Has he? It seems he's rather gathered everyone to force the Dragon's Peace, or something like it,

Yes, from Rand's POV at the end of TOM, his final thoughts basically,

"On the morrow, they'd hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals - he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One." - TOM pg 840

Except that four prophecies say he will die.

Haven't we gone down that road a million times?

Let's change it up. We have a prophecy that puts at least Rand's corpse, on the boat. How is Rand going to do that if he's balefired? Why not just bury Rand in Caemlyn?

Terez
09-19-2011, 01:45 AM
If this is your point, then I disagree. It's not obvious he would know that legend. Heck, if you could show me Rand knowing Arthurian legend, then I'll think twice.
LMAO.

Okay, I give up.

Sodas
09-19-2011, 03:08 AM
Terez - Obviously, it should be obvious to obviously everyone how obvious it is.

Obviously.

http://brainsyndicate.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/1253885876_suicide.gif

Terez
09-19-2011, 03:44 AM
I'm quite sure it is obvious to most people.

Crispin's Crispian
09-19-2011, 11:35 AM
Not a direct parallel, but a reference. Since Rand didn't actually pull the sword out of the rock itself, Callandor is not a direct Excalibur parallel. Narishma did that. Furthermore, there is another Excalibur parallel - Justice.


In most of the Arthur legends, the Sword in the Stone is not Excalibur. He was given Excalibur by the Lady of the Lake, which is a more direct parallel to Justice, which was found under water.

But I have to say...I would be shocked if most people didn't see the Sword in the Stone parallel right away. This is the first time I've heard that "a lot" of readers didn't pick up on it.


brevity is the soul of wit

This may be true, but your post lacked wit altogether. Which is fine in the context of discussion, but it also lacked content and argument.


Good timing.We all know you are Marie's alt-account. Don't try to act all innocent now. :cool:

Davian93
09-19-2011, 01:40 PM
http://content8.flixster.com/question/56/44/14/5644142_std.jpg

The Lady of the Lake, her arm clad in the purest shimmmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur. That is why I am your king!

Terez
09-19-2011, 06:27 PM
We all know you are Marie's alt-account. Don't try to act all innocent now. :cool:
Nice try, but I was talking about the fact that she had just entered that report into the database that day.

Sodas
09-19-2011, 09:48 PM
But I have to say...I would be shocked if most people didn't see the Sword in the Stone parallel right away. This is the first time I've heard that "a lot" of readers didn't pick up on it.

Right?

This may be true, but your post lacked wit altogether. Which is fine in the context of discussion, but it also lacked content and argument.

Yes, context. Touche.

David Selig
09-20-2011, 09:26 AM
Specifically on the point that quote was in response too, it was far from stupid. Other than the constant references to the obligations of the nobility (notably from Faile and Tuon, but there really are many examples), there are numerous accounts of how the local authority takes ultimate responsibility for his or her charge. Moiraine, telling Rand to observe the chain of command. Alliandre, seeking a specific solution to her nation's unique situation. Tuon, giving Beslan a sort of autonomy (with purpose). Nobles are held accountable for their people's general welfare, as Faile drives home. And, almost consistently, allowing someone else to take care of one's responsibility has been seen in a negative light, or at least as the implicit acceptance of the other's authority. Sahalle and Samitsu, in Cairhien. Vanin (and Mat) with Elayne. Romanda (and almost every other Aes Sedai) with the Anaiya investigations (or anything with a presumed underling, really). The Sitters and Egwene, with the Sitters yielding authority generally because of needing to yield authority specifically. Egwene hated asking Rand for advice on Traveling. Extreme examples: damane and da'covale.

Elayne did not want Rand to 'give her' the throne. She did not want his troops to aid her in the war. She did not even consider a loan of Legionaries as a low or no cost (to her) source of mercenaries (the exact nature of the deal could have been kept secret, even from the Legionaries). She did not ask Rand or Taim for Asha'man to provide gateways for food. She didn't even use the Aiel and the Legion in a way similar to the Borederlanders: give them the right to remain in Andor (as an Aes Sedai), while have them camp uncofortably near Arymilla (so that any attack by Arymilla might be initially seen as an attack against the Aiel or the Legion) or between Ellorien and Co. and Caemlyn. Even just being in Andor, and out of the way might have helped her: the Aiel and the Legion are two very immediate reminders of the Dragon and his power (and his thoughts on the Lion Throne).

In any case, people very easily could have died for this stubborn pride. But thematically, her position seemed to be the correct one. And will continue to be. So Elayne will (at least want to) save Caemlyn herself. And she should. And she can- aside from the assets I already noted, she also has a new alliance: Cairhien, Ghealdan, the Children, the Two Rivers, and possibly Mayene will go to Andor's aid. And all of these people can help without treading on Elayne's authority.
But Rand deciding to help wouldn't automatically mean Elayne would be abandoning her responsibilities in any way. The most logical thing would be for them to go there together, leading their respective armies. Plus since the Black Tower is very likely to be directly involved in the attack on Caemlyn, it's very much Rand's direct responsibility to stop them.

Accepting outside help in a civil war is very, very different from accepting outside help against external invasion by Shadowspawn of all things. There's really no reason for Elayne to refuse Rand's help in repelling the Trolloc invasion of Caemlyn except if she's convinced he has to go seal the Bore at the same time and this can't wait, which seems unlikely for now.

Rand may have other priorities of course, but for me it wouldn't make much sense if he decides that he has to go sealing the Bore right now instead of helping the currently most populous city in Randland survive. He can go to Shayol Ghul after that. He spent a month doing very little, what's day or two more?

Rand al'Fain
09-20-2011, 11:06 AM
If I may? If not, then just ignore what I post.

But Rand deciding to help wouldn't automatically mean Elayne would be abandoning her responsibilities in any way. The most logical thing would be for them to go there together, leading their respective armies.
Rand will be breaking the seals at Merrilor, if nothing else. He has stated that himself. He really may not have time to come to Caemlyn himself. He could send some forces to assist Elayne, if she accepts, but hard to say what happens at those meetings and how soon they are warned about the attack.

Plus since the Black Tower is very likely to be directly involved in the attack on Caemlyn, it's very much Rand's direct responsibility to stop them.
The Black Tower is still contained by the Dreamspike and there is still a contingent of Ashaman there that have no loyalty to Taim. Plus, those were meeting with the captured Aes Sedai to plan something. They all know they are in shark infested waters. So, hard to say how involved the BT would be, considering Verin said it would be a Trolloc attack. And outside of Portal Stones, it'd be useless for Channelers to try and being in an army of Trollocs.

Accepting outside help in a civil war is very, very different from accepting outside help against external invasion by Shadowspawn of all things. There's really no reason for Elayne to refuse Rand's help in repelling the Trolloc invasion of Caemlyn except if she's convinced he has to go seal the Bore at the same time and this can't wait, which seems unlikely for now.
I agree, but Elayne's pride has made her do some pretty stupid things in the past. And it is all about timing as well. So far, we only know that Caemlyn is being attacked, the Black Tower will soon be a battlefield, and the White Tower will soon be attacked by the Seanchan. There could even be other attacks going on as well, for all we know. But the key is, is what happens after Rand breaks the last seals.

Rand may have other priorities of course, but for me it wouldn't make much sense if he decides that he has to go sealing the Bore right now instead of helping the currently most populous city in Randland survive. He can go to Shayol Ghul after that. He spent a month doing very little, what's day or two more?
Tar Valon is actually the most populous city, but Caemlyn is 2nd. However, Rand's abilities are better put to use is open battlefields instead of the middle of a city. Plus, he said that his battle is with the Dark One, and that the other battles are for others to fight. I vey much believe he'll send some of his troops to help out, but he's going to need a sizeable force himself for Shayol Ghul.

Tree Brother
09-21-2011, 03:51 PM
Not a direct parallel, but a reference. Since Rand didn't actually pull the sword out of the rock itself, Callandor is not a direct Excalibur parallel. Narishma did that.

I'm a little late to the party. Rand did it, not Narishma. Callandor was in the Stone of Tear, and no one could remove it but Rand.

That is, the Sword was in the Stone. Stories got corrupted over time, as stories do. The Stone was demoted to a regular stone with a sword stuck in it.

Or maybe the quoted statement is correct, and Narishma's part was combined with the original over time.

the_collective
09-21-2011, 04:04 PM
Or maybe the quoted statement is correct, and Narishma's part was combined with the original over time.

It's this one.

Crispin's Crispian
09-21-2011, 04:57 PM
It's this one.

It's equally likely that the people that built the Stone decided to call it the Stone because they were sticking a Sword into it that only a future savior could remove. They would have heard the legend, too, and didn't have anything else to call their giant pile of rock.

Terez
09-21-2011, 05:12 PM
I'm a little late to the party. Rand did it, not Narishma. Callandor was in the Stone of Tear, and no one could remove it but Rand.
He didn't pull it out of the rock itself. It was suspended in air. So, not a direct parallel, despite the blatant reference.

That is, the Sword was in the Stone. Stories got corrupted over time, as stories do. The Stone was demoted to a regular stone with a sword stuck in it.
We all get how it works. Except for Sodas.

the_collective
09-21-2011, 06:18 PM
Except for Sodas.

You just can't help yourself, can you Terez?

Just sayin'.

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 07:16 PM
Tar Valon is actually the most populous city, but Caemlyn is 2nd.

That's an extremely debatable claim since the siege of Tar Valon, and the population boom in Caemlyn & low Caemlyn. Same for Cairhien since four Aiel Clans arrived at the Capital. Ditto for Illian since five Aiel Clans arrived at that Capital too.

Even Tear's Capital has grown in population greatly since the Sea Folk Clans arrived in town. Likewise Illian's Capital has a large number of Sea Folk Clans, their families & children.

That's not even counting refugees from the various countrysides moving into various cities, since the Dragon pulled them off their farms (e.g. Amadicia, Tarabon especially) or pushed them out of nations (e.g. Shara, Altara, Amadicia, Tarabon, Ghealdan, Murandy, Illian).

Tamyrlin
09-21-2011, 07:16 PM
You just can't help yourself, can you Terez?
Just sayin'.

Sodas and Terez...are plenty capable of picking at each other and have for years without need of support or observation. Feel free to grab a seat on the much used Couch if you'd like, it's quite comfortable and there is plenty of popcorn, but try not to become part of the supposed problem you are "just" pointing out.

The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 07:55 PM
But Rand deciding to help wouldn't automatically mean Elayne would be abandoning her responsibilities in any way.
I don't believe I said it was. I know I didn't think it was. I did think (and say) that Rand could help without going in person.
The most logical thing would be for them to go there together, leading their respective armies.
This does not seem to be necessarily true. Why does Rand need to go at all? His armies don't need him personally. I don't think even Elayne needs to go 'in person': coordinating the defense from Merrilor with gateways to deploy troops, communicate intel, evacuate civilians, and even rapidly pin bands of shadowspawn; would seem to be a very appropriate way to do her duty, and safely. Maybe gateways won't work, but even then there are many ways for Elayne to deal with Caemlyn without Rand in person. If your proposal was in fact the most logical, there could not be any better use for Rand. Tarwin's Gap comes to mind, and so does the obvious Shayol Ghul. Neither may be obviously 'better', perhaps neither is factually better (if Rand held off on breaking the Seals, if Tarwin's Gap was already over in one way or another), but I will say again that Rand saving Caemlyn himself seems to be just one more lap around the mountain before the climb. And, Caemlyn seems to have the means to save itself. Unlike the Pattern (and perhaps Tarwin's Gap). I do not think that Rand will be necessary to save Caemlyn; but even if he is, Caemlyn itself may be unnecessary for the survival of the Pattern.
Plus since the Black Tower is very likely to be directly involved in the attack on Caemlyn, it's very much Rand's direct responsibility to stop them.
Well this may be true. But I do not think that the Black Tower's involvement in Caemlyn is at all certain. And Rand may think that his duties to the Black Tower are trumped by his duties to the Pattern.

Rand will be breaking the seals at Merrilor, if nothing else.
I think he will. I think most people advocating the 'Rand goes to Caemlyn' storyline do not though. I'm not sure that the breaking of the Seals is certain based on Rand's thoughts before he hears of Caemlyn (although Rand did know of the Black Tower, and clearly thought the DO more important. Maybe the BT is already dealt with, maybe it is not as important).
Rand's abilities are better put to use is open battlefields instead of the middle of a city.
This may not be the case. The Trolloc attack at the Stone may have shown off Rand's abilities in urban warfare. I think that it will not matter though.

confused at birth
09-21-2011, 08:07 PM
I don't think even Elayne needs to go 'in person': coordinating the defense from Merrilor with gateways to deploy troops

maybe Elayne will try to be cocky and end up blowing up her gateway again only this time taking half her army and part of the city with her.:D

if she goes back in the middle of a battle you know one of the main guys will have to save her and my head will then explode at another girl needs to be saved from her own plans story:mad:

The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 08:41 PM
...are plenty capable of picking at each other and have for years without need of support or observation. Feel free to grab a seat on the much used Couch if you'd like, it's quite comfortable and there is plenty of popcorn, but try not to become part of the supposed problem you are "just" pointing out.

I was pleased to note that I was left out of your post's title.

Who is the 'you' though? Felix?

FelixPax
09-21-2011, 09:54 PM
I was pleased to note that I was left out of your post's title.

Who is the 'you' though? Felix?

Unlikely as I was responding to claim by Rand al'Fain only.

That 'you' was more of a generalized claim by Tamyrlin, not to anyone individual IMHO.


As much as I disagree with and poke holes in Terez's Theory about the 'Battle of Caemlyn', it's utterly pointless throw ad hoc attacks back and forth at her. It bring a discussion nowhere fast. That's satire or comedy, not an attempt at learning. I'd much rather try to understand her perspective, what evidence & assumptions she brings to bear, and her analysis.


Overall, I think the future Battles of Illian, Tear, Tar Valon, Tanchico, Ebou Dar/Rahad, Amadicia, Black Hills, Rhuidean, Cold Rocks Hold, Bandar Eban, Two Rivers, 'neo-Four Kings' are going to be just as important if not more important than any Battle in Caemlyn in AMoL book.


Even ruins of Londaren Cor in present Altara have a further role to play in AMoL book? Why? Waygates and Portal Stone(s). Each is a route Shadowspawn, can and have used to move. A Portal Stone exists near the Rahad too. Luckily for Ebou Dar, the Rahad district is separated from Ebou Dar by a river.


In terms of any fighting at the Field of Merrilor, I do suspect those 'ruins' are a vector of grave concern. Why? Waygates and Portal Stone(s) are likely near by. Which means large numbers of Shadowspawn can literally pop-up at anytime.

Question is correct to assume that the Field of Merrilor is located, near the former nation of Hardan? Or are those ruins from a different former nation? Ileande or Hamadea, which are Post-Trolloc War nations? Or Almoren, one of the Ten Nations of the Pact?


Borders and names were enough to rank the maps by age. On the oldest, Hardan bordered Cairhien to the north; then Hardan was gone and Cairhien’s borders swept halfway to Shienar before creeping back as it became clear the Sun Throne simply could not hold on to that much land.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 20 "From the Stedding" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Ogiers.

The Unreasoner
09-21-2011, 10:13 PM
Unlikely as I was responding to claim by Rand al'Fain only.
Well, yeah. I just couldn't figure out who it was at all, and your post was immediately preceding Tamyrlin's. I could buy Theoryland as a whole though.

I don't think this is in any way intense enough to merit seeking shelter with the Swiss Club. Excuse me: Entropy Club.

Sodas
09-22-2011, 09:18 PM
It's equally likely that the people that built the Stone decided to call it the Stone because they were sticking a Sword into it that only a future savior could remove. They would have heard the legend, too, and didn't have anything else to call their giant pile of rock.

Is it?


The Stone of Tear

The High Lords rule from the Stone of Tear, a massive fortress that dominates the city of Tear like a small mountain. The Stone is believed to be the oldest stronghold of mankind. It was built sometime during or shortly after the Breaking of the World, and was made using the One Power. Flows of Earth, Air and Fire were used to draw stone from every corner of the world and fuse it into a single massive structure without seam or joint or mortar. The Stone has been attacked and besieged over a hundred times, but had never fallen until the Dragon Reborn and a few hundred Aiel took it in a single night.

So chances are they named it the Stone because ... it actually looks like a giant stone.

As opposed to Arthurian legend surviving the Breaking, when it's repeated ad nauseum that the Age of Legends recordings were nearly lost.

We all get how it works. Except for Sodas.

Obviously. :rolleyes:

The Unreasoner
09-23-2011, 01:09 AM
You know I found this when I was looking for a specific image for the CERN thread. Couldn't resist posting a little joke on the ESC couch.
http://500motivators.com/plog-content/thumbs/motivate/me/large/389-your-couch-fuck-it.jpg

Crispin's Crispian
09-23-2011, 10:52 AM
Is it?

So chances are they named it the Stone because ... it actually looks like a giant stone.

As opposed to Arthurian legend surviving the Breaking, when it's repeated ad nauseum that the Age of Legends recordings were nearly lost.

I think it is just as likely, but I could be wrong. I don't remember if we ever see the actual prophecy/Foretelling that led to the creation of the Stone and the placing of Callandor. If it was a Foretelling, then that's probably where it all started.

But it's silly to assume no legends survived the Breaking, since so many people know about the Forsaken, the Dark One, how Aes Sedai used to be...let alone Wolfbrothers and Heroes.

Sodas
09-24-2011, 12:31 AM
But it's silly to assume no legends survived the Breaking, since so many people know about the Forsaken, the Dark One, how Aes Sedai used to be...let alone Wolfbrothers and Heroes.

Did I say no legends survived the Breaking? hardly.

I said legends of Arthur didn't survive the Breaking. These are basically, tales from a long lost Age. In essense, Arthur, at the very least, comes from an Age before the Age before the Age before we are talking about here.

Most of what came before the Age of Legends was lost. In this case, what is relevant particularly is that they forgot all about prior wars.


There was a time, before the Breaking, when men and women wielded the One Power side by side with no fear of any taint on saidin. In this time there were no wars—even the word for war was lost, known only to scholars—and all manner of wonders were commonplace. This age is now known as the Age of Legends. It has been well over three thousand years since the end of the Age of Legends, and its origins have been lost in the shroud of time. The little that is known has been gleaned from a few fragmented records which must be puzzled together to form a partial understanding of the Age.

Arthurian legend is seeped in war. So any possibility for the Arthurian legend of our time to be passed down to the Age of Legends went down the toilet as society forgot war, battles and swords like Excalibur and Justice.

Then, the world was broken apart. Any chance of local legend, such as those that believe in a cave for Arthur's supposed body, was probably destroyed. Think about it realistically, it's not like anyone from the 3rd Age is going to say, "remember that king of Britain?" because they have no reference point of wtf Britain is.

All these things would have wiped out Arthurian legend as we know it. This is why every book starts out the same.

The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again. In one Age, called the Third Age by some, an Age yet to come, an Age long past, a wind rose in the Mountains of Mist. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

Rand is what gave birth to Arthurian legend. So therefore, it's logical to assume that the remainder of Arthurian legend would not survive until it's own rebirth.

FelixPax
09-24-2011, 04:52 AM
I think it is just as likely, but I could be wrong. I don't remember if we ever see the actual prophecy/Foretelling that led to the creation of the Stone and the placing of Callandor. If it was a Foretelling, then that's probably where it all started.

Callandor had not yet been placed in the Stone, nor the Eye of the World created until some time during Breaking Era of the 2nd to 3rd Age. A Dream foretelling interpreted by Deindre is likely responsible for Callandor being place in the Stone, based on Jonai's point of view.


I'll highlight in bold the sections in the text, then will discuss those sections. Yes, there are a few related tangents. The numbering (1), (2), (3)a, (3)b, (4) is a quick guide.

Go to (3)b for evidence of my headline claim.


Jonai hurried down the empty streets, trying not to look at shattered buildings and dead chora trees. All dead. At least the last of the long abandoned jo-cars had been hauled away. Aftershocks still troubled the ground beneath his feet. He wore his work clothes, his cadin’sor, of course, though the work he had been given was nothing he had been trained for. He was sixty-three, in the prime of life, not yet old enough for gray hairs, but he felt a tired old man.

No one questioned his entering the Hall of the Servants; there was no one at the great columned entrance to question anyone, or give greeting. Plenty of people darted about inside, arms filled with papers or boxes, eyes anxious (1), but none so much as looked at him. There was a feel of panic about them, and it grew by increments every time the ground shook. Distressed, he crossed the anteroom and trotted up the broad stairs. Mud stained the silvery white elstone (2). No one could spare time. Perhaps no one cared.

There was no need to knock at the door he sought. Not one of the great gilded doors to an ingathering hall, but a door plain and unobtrusive. He slipped in quietly, though, and was glad he had. Half a dozen Aes Sedai stood around the long table, arguing, apparently not noticing when the building trembled. They were all women.

He shivered, wondering if men would ever stand in a meeting such as this again. When he saw what was on the table, the shiver became a shudder.A crystal sword—perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament(3); he had no way of telling—held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor. His heart clenched. What was that doing here? Why had it not been destroyed, and memory of the cursed man as well?

“What good is your Foretelling(4),” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!”(4)

Dark eyed Deindre faced her with a more usual calm. “I am not the Creator. I can only tell you what I Foretell.”

“Peace, sisters.” Solinda was the calmest of them all, her old-fashioned streith gown only a pale blue mist. The sun-red hair falling to her waist was nearly the color of his own. His greatfather had served her as a young man, but she looked younger than he; she was Aes Sedai. “The time for contention among ourselves is past. Jaric and Haindar will both be here by tomorrow.”

“Which means we cannot afford mistakes, Solinda.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view


(1) I do wonder if many of these papers & boxes removed from the Hall of Servants, have ended up at the Cairhien Academy?


There were questions he needed to ask, and tasks that could not be put off. And Min wanted more of Master Fel’s books. He could hear her muttering to herself as she rummaged through the shelves where they had been stored after Fel’s death. With the bounty for books and manuscripts it did not yet possess, the Academy’s library was fast outgrowing the rooms that could be spared in Lord Barthanes’ former palace.


... What other odd things, what marvels, were people building here at the Academy?

When he asked, still watching the men in the courtyard work on the wagon, Idrien sniffed loudly. Respect for the Dragon Reborn held only a thin edge in her voice as she began, and quickly lost ground to disgust. “Bad enough I must give space to philosophers and historians and arithmatists and the like, but you said take in anyone who wanted to make anything new and let them stay if they showed progress. I suppose you hoped for weapons, but now I have dozens of dreamers and wastrels on my hands, every one with an old book or manuscript or six, all of which date back to the Compact of the Ten Nations, mind, if not the Age of Legends itself, or so they say, and they are all trying to make sense of drawings and sketches and descriptions of things they’ve never seen and maybe nobody ever did see. I have seen old manuscripts that talk about people with their eyes in their bellies, and animals ten feet tall with tusks longer than a man, and cities where—”


Winter's Heart, Prologue 'Snow' -- Rand al'Thor point of view, with Min at Academy of Cairhien

It seems that 2nd Age manuscripts have popped up in Cairhien, drawn to that Academy. I wonder what what's been going on at the Academy in Tear, considering steamwagons allow news to travel faster between the two Academies now?

All in all, those manuscripts have led to inventions that might help a good number of people to survive, the 'Last Battle': Gliders, Steamboats, Steamwagons.


(2) Could the "Mud stained the silvery white elstone be the same stone found in the Amyrlin Seat's study?


The Amyrlin Seat’s study had been occupied by many grand and powerful women over the centuries, and reminders of the fact filled the room, from the tall fireplace all of golden marble from Kandor, cold now, to the paneled walls of pale, oddly striped wood, iron hard yet carved in wondrous beasts and wildly feathered birds. Those panels had been brought from the mysterious lands beyond the Aiel Waste well over a thousand years ago, and the fireplace was more than twice as old. The polished red-stone of the floor had come from the Mountains of Mist. High arched windows let onto a balcony. The iridescent stone framing the windows shone like pearls, and had been salvaged from the remains of a city sunk into the Sea of Storms by the Breaking of the World; no one had ever seen its like.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 1 "Seeds of Shadow" - Suian and Min in scene


Ultimately any given interpretation is going to depend on how the words 'iridescent' and 'silvery' are compared, contrasted and viewed in meaning.

It does seem likely that elstone is what was salvaged from the Sea of Storms, and placed as a framing material for the Amyrlin Seat study windows. Siuan and her birth mother (called Ailhuin Guenna) likely knows the general location of where this sunken City is found in the Sea of Storms.



(3)a. Callandor was placed in the Stone of Tear, after Jonai point of view. The Dragon Banner was placed in a newly created Eye of the World, after Jonai point of view.

A crystal sword—perhaps an object of the Power, perhaps only an ornament(3); he had no way of telling—held down the Dragon banner of Lews Therin Kinslayer, spread out like a tablecloth and spilling onto the floor.


Jonai lived during a Breaking Era.


Questions: Could have and did Narisse, Mordaine each survived the Breaking, the placement of Callandor in the Stone, and relocate to build the unfinished city of Rhuidean? :confused: Or might they both be scions of Aes Sedai who did? Or are Narisse, Mordaine part of the 'four' Aes Sedai, who crossed the Spine of the World/Dragonwall to found and build Rhuidean? (Rhodric claimed 'four' Aes Sedai were heading over Spine of the World.)


(3)b. Someshta's task is these Aes Sedai's first priority, creation of the the Eye of the World & placing the Dragon Banner inside. Second priority is placing Callandor at the Stone in Tear.


“Go now, Jonai. I want you far from Paaren Disen by tomorrow. And remember—keep moving. Keep the Aiel safe.”

He bowed where he knelt, but she was already being drawn back into the argument.

“Can we trust Kodam and his fellows, Solinda?”

“We must, Oselle. They are young and inexperienced, but barely touched by the taint, and . . . And we have no choice.”

“Then we will do what we must. The sword must wait. Someshta, we have a task for the last of the Nym, if you will do it. We have asked too much of you; now we must ask more.”

Jonai bowed his way out formally as the Nym rose, his head brushing the ceiling. Already immersed in their plans, they were not looking at him, but he did them this last honor anyway. He did not think he would ever see them again.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view, at Paaren Disen before its destruction.


Follow up Question: Why does Elan Morin and Moiraine spell 'Paaran Disen' one way, while Solinda Sedai and Jonai spell what seemingly is the same place or location as 'Paaren Disen'? One would think educated Aes Sedai & Da'Shain Aiel would know better. Unless perhaps those two identifiers are referring to different objects? Hmm.


Elan Morin's version:

Elan Morin grimaced. “Look at you,” he said scornfully. “Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch. But it is not enough. You humbled me in the Hall of Servants. You defeated me at the Gates of Paaran Disen.


The Eye of the World, Prologue 'Dragonmount' -- Elan Morin point of view AND L.T.T. point of view; in a version Mirror World version of Earth with people, set in the past


Moghedien's version:

“Do you think that you are my equal, little sister?” Moghedien grimaced in disgust. “Did you stand in the Pit of Doom to dedicate your soul to the Great Lord? Did you taste the sweetness of victory at Paaran Disen, or the bitter ashes at the Asar Don? You are a barely trained puppy, not the pack-mistress, and you will go where I point until I see fit to give you a better place. These others thought themselves more than they are, too. Do you wish to try your strength against me?”


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 18 "A Hound of Darkness" -- Liandrin point of view; with Moghedien speaking


Solinda Sedai version:

“Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da’shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid.”

Her hand tightened painfully in his hair. “The citizens have already fled Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da’shain yet have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view; with Solinda Sedai


Jonai's version:

His sons were already up on the seat—Willim, fifteen, with the reins, and Adan, ten, beside him, both grinning with nervous excitement. Little Esole lay playing with a doll on top of the canvas tied over their possessions—and, more important, their charges from the Aes Sedai. There was no room for any to ride but the young and the very old. A dozen rooted chora cuttings in clay pots sat behind the wagon seat, to be planted when they found a place of safety. A foolish thing to carry, perhaps, but no wagon was without its potted cuttings. Something from a time long gone; symbol of a better time to come. People needed hope, and symbols.

Alnora waited beside the team, glossy black hair tumbling about her shoulders and reminding him of the first time he saw her as a girl. But worry had etched lines around her eyes now.

He managed a smile for her, hiding the worry in his own heart. “All will be well, wife of my heart.” She did not answer, and he added, “Have you dreamed?”

“Of no time soon,” she murmured. “All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well.” Smiling tremulously, she touched his cheek. “With you I know it will be so, husband of my heart.”

Jonai waved his arms over his head, and the signal rippled down the lines. Slowly the wagons began to move, the Aiel leaving Paaren Disen.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view; with Solinda Sedai

I wanted readers to notice how the Da'Shain Aiel leaving of Paaren Disen are connected to a thought in Jonai's mind: 'People needed hope, and symbols.'


Jonai's children, wife and chora cuttings are symbols of hope personally to him. Perhaps distant future;s hope is embodied in the seed of Willim and his writings?


The same Willim of Maneches, who's essays many characters have read? Loial (CoT, Ch.24); Rand and Tam al'Thor (TEOTW, Ch.36); Mother Ailhuin Guenna and mostly likely Siuan too (TDR, Ch.49); Elayne (TDR, Ch.49), Moiraine (New Spring:the Novel, Chapter 8)

Is this the same seed of Willim, who the darkfriend Mili Skane (aka Lady Shianine) murdered in the countryside? Lord Lord Willim Avarhin, who's signet is 'Heart and Hand'. (Winter's Heart, Chapter 10 "A Plan Succeeds" - Mili POV)



I've wondered for a long time, if Jonai's son Willim lived for an extended period in an Ogier Stedding? Similar to how Valan Luca did for a time at Steddings Shangtai, Tsofu and others?

Jonai was a male channeler. Steddings are safe enough places for male channelers. Safe enough until someone can come to that particular Stedding to sever them from the then Tainted saidin. That could occur outside the Stedding, unless perhaps a saidar Well was used instead to sever a male channeler inside the Stedding



4. These sections below seem to indicate or suggest that Narisse, Mordaine and Dermon had the same original goals & purpose as Oselle, Solinda, Deidre did. However some of those original assumptions known by Oselle, Solinda, Deidre were found to be off base by Narisse, Mordaine and Dermon very later in their own lives. Unfounded.


“What good is your Foretelling(4),” Oselle was almost shouting, “if you cannot tell us when?” Her long black hair swayed as she shook with anger. “The world rests on this! The future! The Wheel itself!”(4)


“We seek no control,” Narisse told them.

“Our days dwindle,” Mordaine said. “A day will come when the Jenn are no more, and only you will remain to remember the Aiel. You must remain, or all is for nothing, and lost.”

The flatness of her voice, the calm sureness, silenced Charendin, but Mandein had one more question. “Why? If you know your doom, why do this?” He gestured toward the structures rising in the distance.

“It is our purpose,” Dermon replied calmly. “For long years we searched for this place, and now we prepare it, if not for the purpose we once thought. We do what we must, and keep faith.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 25 "The Road to the Spear" -- Mandein point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view

At that point the Rhuidean Jenn Aiel were dying out, the Aiel Clans in Three-Folds Land did not know their history, and the Tuatha'an/Lost Ones in the Waste did not stop to visit cities (e.g. Rhuidean) or Aes Sedai.

The last of the Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai needed human agency from the Aiel Clans, to draw both Rand al'Thor and (in the future) the blind true Dragon to Rhuidean.


Whereas, Matrim Cauthon only went to Rhuidean because the Aelfinn told him he had to. Not a draw, but an Aelfinn kick in the butt to head for Rhuidean.





Legends & Tales

But it's silly to assume no legends survived the Breaking, since so many people know about the Forsaken, the Dark One, how Aes Sedai used to be...let alone Wolfbrothers and Heroes.

Yes, indeed silly as the Green Man & the Eye of World are among those surviving legends. Tales surrounding the Horn of Valere too.


Bayle Domon similar to Thom's character has heard of, or visited many of these surviving legends and tales in person.


“I’d dig,” Mat said. “How far is this . . . Tremalking?” A clump of trees slid in front of the shining tower, but he stared as if he could see it yet.

Captain Domon shook his head. “No, lad, it no be the treasure that makes for seeing the world. If you find yourself a fistful of gold, or some dead king’s jewels, all well and good, but it be the strangeness you see that pulls you to the next horizon. In Tanchico—that be a port on the Aryth Ocean—part of the Panarch’s Palace were built in the Age of Legends, so it be said. There be a wall there with a frieze showing animals no man living has ever seen.”

“Any child can draw an animal nobody’s ever seen,” Rand said, and the captain chuckled.

“Aye, lad, so they can. But can a child make the bones of those animals? In Tanchico they have them, all fastened together like the animal was. They stand in a part of the Panarch’s Palace where any can enter and see. The Breaking left a thousand wonders behind, and there been half a dozen empires or more since, some rivaling Artur Hawkwing’s, every one leaving things to see and find. Lightsticks and razorlace and heartstone. A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up. A mountain hollowed into a bowl, and in its center, a silver spike a hundred spans high, and any who comes within a mile of it, dies. Rusted ruins, and broken bits, and things found on the bottom of the sea, things not even the oldest books know the meaning of. I’ve gathered a few, myself. Things you never dreamed of, in more places than you can see in ten lifetimes. That be the strangeness that will draw you on.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 24 "Flight Down the Arinelle" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mat Cauthon, and Bayle Domon speaking



Narisse, Mordaine likely lived during the period of time, when Tzora was destroyed.

And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood.”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view, Solinda Sedai speaking


There's a very good chance Bayle Domon has seen the remains of Tzora in person:

A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 24 "Flight Down the Arinelle" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mat Cauthon, and Bayle Domon speaking



Cindaking, Qaim are candidates to be current location of this island of glass once called Tzora. (A Working Hypothesis.) Neither island has been directly referred to, or discussed outside of indirect comments or shown on maps.




Another Legend: Lost.


The Glass Columns of Rhuidean themselves have tales to tell, and knowledge to give... still?


Dimly he was aware of vast rumbles, of a thousand whining hums like some strange music. The glass columns, quivering, vibrating. He could not worry about them.

... (Skipped many paragraphs)

The earth had stopped moving. The glass columns still stood—he was grateful for that; destroying them would have been like obliterating the history of the Aiel—but Avendesora, that had lived three thousand years in legend and truth, Avendesora blazed like a torch, and as for the rest of Rhuidean . . .


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand al'Thor point of view, fighting Asmodean in Rhuidean


Is memory of the Lost Song(s) of the Da'Shain Aiel contained in the Glass Columns of Rhuidean? The same Glass Columns which no longer seem to be operate-able, since Aviendha's nightmare-ish dreams of 'if' set in the future? (ToM, Chapters 49 'Court of the Sun')

If the (true blind) Dragon is suppose to enter the Glass Columns of Rhuidean to become a Chief of Chiefs, as Rhuarc once put it to Matrim Cauthon (TDR book). How can the (true blind) Dragon to do this, if the Glass Columns not longer function? Or did Aviendha's Twisted Ring stop functioning, rather than the Glass Columns at Rhuidean (ToM book)?

GonzoTheGreat
09-24-2011, 05:23 AM
Follow up Question: Why does Elan Morin and Moiraine spell 'Paaran Disen' one way, while Solinda Sedai and Jonai spell what seemingly is the same place or location as 'Paaren Disen'? One would think educated Aes Sedai & Da'Shain Aiel would know better. Unless perhaps those two identifiers are referring to different objects? Hmm.Or both spellings are correct.
That happens to be the case with The Hague, you know. Both Den Haag and 's-Gravenhage are valid Dutch names for the same place. As is true of Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosh) as well, actually. And there are plenty more such cases to be found in the Netherlands.

Crispin's Crispian
09-26-2011, 11:15 AM
Did I say no legends survived the Breaking? hardly.

I said legends of Arthur didn't survive the Breaking. These are basically, tales from a long lost Age. In essense, Arthur, at the very least, comes from an Age before the Age before the Age before we are talking about here.

Most of what came before the Age of Legends was lost. In this case, what is relevant particularly is that they forgot all about prior wars.

Well, there's the Mosk and Merk story, for one. But really, it is unreasonable to think that the entirety of Arthurian legend survived the Age of Legends. But that's not what I said, either. Bits and pieces are all that's needed.


Rand is what gave birth to Arthurian legend. So therefore, it's logical to assume that the remainder of Arthurian legend would not survive until it's own rebirth.
There is no "giving birth" to legends in WoT. At least as of the present time in the books, all the legends and myths have happened before. Mikel was Michael, and Oscar was Otarin, remember?

That's kind of the point.

Sodas
09-27-2011, 10:26 PM
There is no "giving birth" to legends in WoT. At least as of the present time in the books, all the legends and myths have happened before.

So your argument is that legends can't be created in WoT because it's the present...

CC, time is circular. Rand will give birth to legends for the next Age like ours. In the next turning of the Wheel, in the Age that is equivalent of our Age, they may remember how Rand pulled the Sword from the Stone and survived Caemlyn.

Crispin's Crispian
09-28-2011, 10:25 AM
So your argument is that legends can't be created in WoT because it's the present...

CC, time is circular. Rand will give birth to legends for the next Age like ours. In the next turning of the Wheel, in the Age that is equivalent of our Age, they may remember how Rand pulled the Sword from the Stone and survived Caemlyn.

Sounds like you agree, then. Time is circular, legends are born and forgotten and born again, but never born for the first time.

Landro
09-28-2011, 11:44 AM
I think the Seanchan will save Caemlyn. Why?

Well, they are using gateways to travel to Tar Valon but we know Mat can pull gateways towards him like he did with Verin (unless she lied about that).

This would put the Seanchan army in a place where they will be very useful and also allows Mat and Tuon to meet up again before the Seanchan do anything stupid like attack Tar Valon a second time.

Terez
09-28-2011, 12:39 PM
I think the Seanchan will save Caemlyn.
I have considered this possibility, but I think Nicola's Foretelling nixes it. Rand is already dead, Black Tower appears to be resolved (via guardians balance servants, and Logain stepping over Rand's body to mount the black stone in Egwene's dream), and the land is still divided by the Return. Pretty sure the truce hasn't happened yet in that one. (The Last Battle isn't won yet because the future still hangs in the balance, and Rand is still important.) And of course, that all matches up with the Arthurian idea that Rand will die during the Battle of Caemlyn (the 'great battle').

This is part of why I think Illian is a more likely place for the Mat/Tuon showdown. Or the White Tower. Or both. The Horn is tied to Illian for some reason, though, and that's the border between the de facto capital of Randland and Tuon's capital.

The Unreasoner
09-28-2011, 02:40 PM
I have considered this possibility, but I think Nicola's Foretelling nixes it. Rand is already dead, Black Tower appears to be resolved (via guardians balance servants, and Logain stepping over Rand's body to mount the black stone in Egwene's dream), and the land is still divided by the Return. Pretty sure the truce hasn't happened yet in that one. (The Last Battle isn't won yet because the future still hangs in the balance, and Rand is still important.) And of course, that all matches up with the Arthurian idea that Rand will die during the Battle of Caemlyn (the 'great battle').

This is only one interpretation. If the 'great battle' is Tarmon Gaidon, it does not need to be the case at all. The future can still hang in the balance (Aiel/Seanchan issue, or Asha'man/Aes Sedai, or both). 'Divided by the return' might already be the case (and it does not require the two sides to be at war).

I like the idea that the Seanchan save Caemlyn. They could bring the news to Merrilor.

Landro
09-28-2011, 03:10 PM
I would be quite upset if the Seanchan would actually fight against the Tower again. That would be a stupid waste of resources for the light and I think the time for that is over now.



Another thing
ToM, chap 53 "and you see, " Taim said, walking with one hand folded - fingers making a fist behind his back. With his other hand.....

Why does this remind me of Rand holding his hand behind his back

ToM chap 3 The Dragon Reborn raised his right hand - his left hand was folded behind his back - and halted the procession

FelixPax
09-28-2011, 05:56 PM
I think the Seanchan will save Caemlyn. Why?

Whatever your view, the Seanchan Empire is coming to Andor. Beslan's comments to Mat before leaving Ebou Dar hint at it directly.

In terms of historical characters, Queen Esmara Getares once invaded Andor, at the end of the War of the Hundred Years. Esmara lost that battle and became a prisoner Queen Telaisien in Andor (LoC,Chapter 26). Esmara Getares could be the re-born soul of Tuon, but that a speculation.

Whoever Esmara's soul once was, she did invade Andor. I expect some variation of Esmara's aims to be repeated. An invasion of Andoran lands.


Seanchan can save Caemlyn? How about trying to conquer it by force?

I'm not sure Caemlyn can be saved from a Trollocs invasion.

Hugoye
10-10-2011, 08:32 AM
1) Tuon is made Empress of all Randland, 2) Tuon agrees to end the practice of collaring channelers and hopefully da'covale too, and 3) Mat and Tuon finally get it on (not necessarily in that order).

Sorry for bringing the discussion off topic, but I just wanted to highlight this part, since no one else did. A comment and a question:

Comment: In terms of Tuon's character, I think my issue is that I hate the idea of her (in the sense that she rules the Seanchan, whom I just can't help disliking as a collective), but I am always surprised at how much I love her POVs, and Mat's POVs when he interacts with her. That being said - and all logic aside - I would be really bummed out if after all this time, the Seanchan Empress really does end up ruling all of Randland. (I concede that this is not valid argumentation, but cummon, am the only one who would hate this?!).

Question: As far as practical barriers to this possibility, Terez, do you think Elayne has a role to play in this? I won't say I've ALWAYS imagined it this way, but now that I think of it, wouldn't Elayne be the kind of ruler who would not submit to being a vassal to a Seanchan (or any) empress?

Maybe I'm completely off base here, but wouldn't any arrangement where Tuon rules the whole world have to be shepherded through against Elayne's (and probably other rulers') will?

Sodas
10-11-2011, 12:05 AM
Sounds like you agree, then. Time is circular, legends are born and forgotten and born again, but never born for the first time.

I do agree that the legends aren't being born for the first time here.

What I'm saying is that Rand will be the next King Arthur. As the 4th Age keeps turning, it will turn to an Age like ours. Some call this the 1st Age, or the Age before the Age of legend. In that Age, Rand would be known as we know king Arthur.

So,

Well, there's the Mosk and Merk story, for one. But really, it is unreasonable to think that the entirety of Arthurian legend survived the Age of Legends. But that's not what I said, either. Bits and pieces are all that's needed.

I doubt even that. Like I said, by the time that legends returns, even the myths surrounding it have faded. For instance, Rand would replace Arthurian legend, but it needs Arthurian legend to be forgotten for it to take root.

GonzoTheGreat
10-11-2011, 05:02 AM
And what makes you think that Artur the High King, Artur Hawkwing, isn't a more likely prototype for Arthur, High King of Britain?

Crispin's Crispian
10-11-2011, 01:37 PM
I do agree that the legends aren't being born for the first time here.

What I'm saying is that Rand will be the next King Arthur. As the 4th Age keeps turning, it will turn to an Age like ours. Some call this the 1st Age, or the Age before the Age of legend. In that Age, Rand would be known as we know king Arthur.

So,



I doubt even that. Like I said, by the time that legends returns, even the myths surrounding it have faded. For instance, Rand would replace Arthurian legend, but it needs Arthurian legend to be forgotten for it to take root.
But somehow thousands of years before Rand was even conceived, someone came up with the idea arose anew that the Reborn One would pull a Sword from the Stone as one proclamation of his status. You're suggesting that the name "Stone" is just a coincidence, whereas I'm suggesting it might be connotative based on legends extant at the time.

Why is that so unbelievable?

GonzoTheGreat
10-12-2011, 04:21 AM
It may be that the Dark One, who inspired the Karaethon Cycle, is a fan of medieval epics. That'd make Shaidar Haran a reincarnation of Grendel, I think.

Sodas
10-14-2011, 12:31 AM
And what makes you think that Artur the High King, Artur Hawkwing, isn't a more likely prototype for Arthur, High King of Britain?

It would help if Arthur, High King of Britain wasn't a fictional name, and who most historians claim has no proof of existence.

GonzoTheGreat
10-14-2011, 04:17 AM
It would help if Arthur, High King of Britain wasn't a fictional name, and who most historians claim has no proof of existence.One help for that is an actual inscription of that name from more or less the right time (http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/articles/artstone.html). So it is not only a fictional name. Though there is still some discussion over whether or not the inscription is a reference to King Artur, or to another guy with the same name.

Grig
10-14-2011, 12:10 PM
And what makes you think that Artur the High King, Artur Hawkwing, isn't a more likely prototype for Arthur, High King of Britain?

No apples. No boat to Avalon. No myths on returning when most needed. No sword from Stone. No Mordred. al'Thor seems rather easily corruptible into Arthur, given time. Of course, Rand doesn't have Paendrag in his name as a Pendragon analogue. It's probably silly to talk about "more likely", when Jordan was likely implying that our Age's King Arthur was an amalgamation of the two figures.

Zombie Sammael
10-14-2011, 12:42 PM
No apples. No boat to Avalon. No myths on returning when most needed. No sword from Stone. No Mordred. al'Thor seems rather easily corruptible into Arthur, given time. Of course, Rand doesn't have Paendrag in his name as a Pendragon analogue. It's probably silly to talk about "more likely", when Jordan was likely implying that our Age's King Arthur was an amalgamation of the two figures.

He spent the last years of his life laying siege to Tar Valon (Avalon), so that's your avalon link. His sword, Justice, is of unusual significance after his death, to Ran al'Thor, so there's your sword. Moridin = Merlin + Mordred, so there's a link there, although at the time, he was still Ishamael, and further in disguise as Jalwin Moerad (Moerad is close enough to Mordred, as well); his betrayal was in convincing Hawkwing to send his armies across the sea, and lay siege to Tar Valon.
I'd say there's plenty linking Hawkwing and Arthur.

Of course, there's also plenty linking Rand and King Arthur as well. That's the thing with myths and their WOT inspirations, though; they're jumbled accounts of stories about different people. Merlin and Arthur were originally separate stories, for instance; in another thousand years, who's to say they won't be one and the same, or forgotten completely? "Al'Thor" sounds just like "Arthur" which sounds just like "Arthur"; surely they must just be three names for the same man?

Sodas
10-15-2011, 01:06 AM
No apples. No boat to Avalon. No myths on returning when most needed. No sword from Stone. No Mordred. al'Thor seems rather easily corruptible into Arthur, given time. Of course, Rand doesn't have Paendrag in his name as a Pendragon analogue. It's probably silly to talk about "more likely", when Jordan was likely implying that our Age's King Arthur was an amalgamation of the two figures.

^ this

arioch
10-17-2011, 12:53 AM
I had a blinding flash of the obvious over the past couple of days, but it's this:

There are still a couple of unaccounted-for Black Ajah in the original Liandrin coven, there are still a couple of unaccounted-for ter'angreal from what they stole from the Tower store rooms. One of them is the dice ter'angreal.

Now, there have been arguments back and forth over Elayne's intelligence and leadership and foolhardiness on these and other forums for a long long time, but over the last few re-reads I've gone over and over exactly what she's doing and thinking and I really can't find fault with any of it versus basically any of the other main characters. She just ends up completely (un)lucky. In the assault on the BA house, she gets taken by surprise by the untimely return of a couple of BA who have a weird nausea ter'angreal, and in the rescue attempt in her dungeons, that's really quite a timely rescue and nothing she could have defended against -- particularly as the BA has had her targetted for quite a while and might well have gone after her in her rooms that night if they had the opportunity. If we take the assumption that SHE isn't to blame, then what we have left is: the dice ter'angreal. Elayne is the Light-side version of the Forsaken or warlord or whatever who's otherwise intelligent and well-prepared but simply gets screwed by Mat at every opportunity.

Let's go over to the end of ToM. Olver wins a game of snakes and foxes. Statistically impossible. I submit that Mat walking out of the Tower of Ghenjei is a red herring, particularly as we DO NOT know the specific timing of his escape vs. Olver's game. I further submit that Olver's win, coinciding as it does with the beginning of the battle for Caemlyn, is actually a symptom of the ter'angreal in use.

I tweeted a (poorly worded, I admit) question at Brandon the other day, but no reply, so I figured I should post this here (I did a quick search through this thread and the Olver wins at snakes and foxes thread from June/July and couldn't find anything on the dice ter'angreal, so...) while it's still fresh in my head.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 03:50 AM
Problem is that Elayne only is not to blame if she had good reason to expect her enemies to behave precisely as she wanted them to.

To give a quote from the Belisarius series (by Eric Flint and David Drake):
"Never expect the enemy to do what you think he's going to do, and never expect that schedules will be met on time. And, most of all, always remember the first law of battle: everything gets fucked up as soon as the enemy arrives. That's why he's called the enemy."

Overlooking that once may be bad luck, though with her training, Elayne should have known better already. To make that mistake time and time again is just plain incompetence.

In the BA house case, she could have set up a far better and stronger perimeter guard.
In the case of the dungeon episode ... let's not go there, shall we? I do hope it isn't necessary to point out that what she did was not really all that smart. Starting out with keeping them prisoner there in the first place. She should've sent them by gateway to Egwene's camp immediately after capturing them.
Then there is her decision to call resistance to the Shadow rebellion. After all, that's what the TR mess amounted to: the locals fought back against the DO's forces, the Andoran crown did nothing, and Elayne is calling them rebels.

Sarevok
10-17-2011, 04:39 AM
Then there is her decision to call resistance to the Shadow rebellion. After all, that's what the TR mess amounted to: the locals fought back against the DO's forces, the Andoran crown did nothing, and Elayne is calling them rebels.

In her defense, I don't believe anyone bothered to tell her that there was an army of trollocs in the Two Rivers. All she knows is that some local guy started calling himself "lord" and waving the flag of Manetheren around.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 05:49 AM
In her defense, I don't believe anyone bothered to tell her that there was an army of trollocs in the Two Rivers. All she knows is that some local guy started calling himself "lord" and waving the flag of Manetheren around.In which case she might possibly have bothered to get some halfway accurate information first, instead of painting herself into a corner with a treason accusation.

She could have asked those Two River girls in Egwene's camp. She could have asked Galad, who had gotten the story by then from Byar, Perrin and others. She could have asked Morgase.
Instead, she decided she had enough to press formal charges, while it had been her side (the crown of Andor) which was actually culpable.
That's not a good sign of competence, is it?

To name a real world example:
You do not draw loaded guns in the presence of the president of the United States. Doing so if you're a US citizen could very well be considered treason. Yet, when that lunatic shot Reagan, some Americans did draw guns in Reagan's direct neighbourhood.
They actually had good reason; as they were Reagan's guards. But if you do not bother to do that bit of research, then all you have is "they waved guns around during an assassination attempt". If the US government had accused them of treason, then at least one DA would have looked amazingly incompetent.

Does that show why getting the facts straight before pressing charges is a good idea?

Landro
10-17-2011, 07:54 AM
Does that show why getting the facts straight before pressing charges is a good idea?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Army_Mutinies_%281917%29#The_French_High_Co mmand.27s_response

Enigma
10-17-2011, 08:42 AM
Overlooking that once may be bad luck, though with her training, Elayne should have known better already. To make that mistake time and time again is just plain incompetence.

Was Elayne trained in military/security matters. My understanding was that the First Prince of the Sword was the one who commanded the armies where as the Queen set policy. I could see her training dealing with politics, even if it was the watered down version practiced in Andor compared to say Cairhien and economics etc. She may even have been trained in the effect on the country of putting a lot of people in the army. What I am questioning is does she have any training or experience in actually organising a company level of soldiers.

Put it this way, if I had a degrees and experience in politics and economics and I suddenly became say President of the US would I know how to arrange say 200 soldiers around a building to provide security and cover from attackers within and without? Thats the sort of thing that I pay a Lieutenant or a Captain to do.

Elayne's error was on trying to pull off something risky that she had no training for and without bringing into the loop those who knew what they were doing like Bridgett. If fact given the purges that took place in the Queens' guard compitent officers may be in sort supply as all the experienced ones were retired or left and the ones that were left had to be promoted to fill the gaps higher up leaving a lack of experienced officers at more junior levels.

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 09:38 AM
Put it this way, if I had a degrees and experience in politics and economics and I suddenly became say President of the US would I know how to arrange say 200 soldiers around a building to provide security and cover from attackers within and without? Thats the sort of thing that I pay a Lieutenant or a Captain to do.Apparently, your not existing degree in politics actually really gives you the insight that if you're ignorant in certain matters, then you might do well to consult an expert.
Elayne did not have the knowledge to recognise her own ignorance, or the wisdom to act on that knowledge.

To be fair to her, I suspect that the majority of politicians in the real world don't have a higher level of competency. That would explain a lot, don't you think?
Still, she is portrayed as a very good leader. It might be nice if that was apparent by at least some common sense from her.

David Selig
10-17-2011, 10:33 AM
Then there is her decision to call resistance to the Shadow rebellion. After all, that's what the TR mess amounted to: the locals fought back against the DO's forces, the Andoran crown did nothing, and Elayne is calling them rebels.
No, she's calling them rebels because Perrin was declared Lord, kept using the banner of Manetheren (which used to include half of Andor) for months, and topped all of this by entering with a huge army on Andoran territory without asking anyone for permission.

Was Elayne trained in military/security matters. My understanding was that the First Prince of the Sword was the one who commanded the armies where as the Queen set policy. I could see her training dealing with politics, even if it was the watered down version practiced in Andor compared to say Cairhien and economics etc. She may even have been trained in the effect on the country of putting a lot of people in the army. What I am questioning is does she have any training or experience in actually organising a company level of soldiers.


She was trained by Bryne:
KoD, Ch. 33

She had not trained with weapons, but she had received all of the other lessons Gawyn had gotten from Gareth Bryne. A queen had to understand the battle plans her generals gave her rather than simply accept them blindly.
I kind of doubt she had lessons how to deal with channellers and ancient superweapons though. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
10-17-2011, 10:47 AM
No, she's calling them rebels because Perrin was declared Lord, kept using the banner of Manetheren (which used to include half of Andor) for months, and topped all of this by entering with a huge army on Andoran territory without asking anyone for permission.According to the same reasoning, Elayne should acknowledge Fortuona as her Empress, and let herself be collared.
I don't think she'll go quite that far with being principled, though.

I kind of doubt she had lessons how to deal with channellers and ancient superweapons though. ;)She did get that training in the Tower. And outside Falme, when she ran into more opposition than she'd expected. And in Falme, when she sprang Egwene free. And in Tear, when ...

All in all, she should have known that she could be outmatched. Even when she did not really know precisely how many opponents she might have to face.

1eyedfool
01-19-2012, 02:20 AM
The Black Tower — It looms large on the east side of the city, and there is craziness going down there as we speak. Taim may manage to turn as many as 2-300 channelers to the Shadow before his defenses are penetrated (including the Reds, the Asha'man, and the rebels sent by Egwene) though Min's viewing of Logain and Faolain give us some hope. The dreamspike is not only portable, but its area is adjustable. It may be that Caemlyn can be included within its affected area, which would make things difficult at best. Gateways might be the only feasible way to save the city from the Shadowspawn.

It is assured that Caemlyn can be included in the Dreamspike's radius:

KoD: Chapter 17
"While the clerks and messengers were filing out, Elayne strode to one of the long tables where a map showed Caemlyn and its surroundings for at least fifty miles in each direction. Even the Black Tower had been inked in, a square sitting less than two leagues south of the city."

ToM: Chapter 34
"Up ahead, Neald satt on a stumpnear the Traveling ground. During the last few days, the youthful Asha'man soldier and Gaul had scouted out in several directions at Perrin's orders, to see if gateways worked if ne got far enough away from the camp. Sure enough, it turned out they did, though one had to go for hours to escape the effect."

ToM: Chapter 35
"So, instead, he shifted as far as he could. Neald had said it was about four leagues from their camp to the perimeter, so Perrin shifted that far to the north, then did so again, and again."

KoD: Chapter 13
"This fight on the wall was not Arymilla's forst assault in recent weeks by far. In truth, the frequency was increasing,with three or four attacks coming some days, now. She knew very well that Elayne had insufficient soldiers to hold six leagues of wall."

The first quotes say that a Dreamspike can cover a radius of 'about' four leagues and that from Caemlyn to the BT it's 'less than 2 leagues'. So there are about 2 leagues to cover Caemlyn. As the length of the New City's wall is 6 leagues, the diameter of Caemlyn is also about 2 leagues. So, definitely the Dreamspike can cover Caemlyn.

The strategic advantage of denying reinforcements from the Light's side is simply too much IMO for the Shadow not to use it. Add that - if the Dreamspike is switched to full range just before the invasion - the alarm will not reach Merrilor immediately. Sure, Perrin and Rand will know very soon anyway, but at least for some hours it will be the Band with Talmanes (and Dragons) to carry the defense - if they can get inside and defend the Inner City or at least the Royal Palace. The Waygate is in the New City, so the Shadow's army is within the outer walls but not immediately within the inner wall circles. Then both sides have channelers to add to the chaos: Asha'man and BA from the BT, BA (Duhara) in Caemlyn, Forsaken for the Shadow; Kinswomen, captured Damane, Windfinders for the Light.

By many aspects, this fight will be the focus of the first part of AMoL. The trip to SG will have to wait the resolution of this - and of the White Tower/Seanchan topic.

Weiramon
02-17-2012, 04:32 PM
Burn my soul, there may be a new theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=127&theo=2840)about this.

I advise against reading this or any theory - it uses reasoning and logic based on facts and evidence, supported by references. Really, we should be relying on the words of those in authority.

However, the author does make it clear where this Ablar fellow has been hiding out, with Dreadlords attacking Maradon.

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 04:43 PM
It is assured that Caemlyn can be included in the Dreamspike's radius:









The first quotes say that a Dreamspike can cover a radius of 'about' four leagues and that from Caemlyn to the BT it's 'less than 2 leagues'. So there are about 2 leagues to cover Caemlyn. As the length of the New City's wall is 6 leagues, the diameter of Caemlyn is also about 2 leagues. So, definitely the Dreamspike can cover Caemlyn.

The strategic advantage of denying reinforcements from the Light's side is simply too much IMO for the Shadow not to use it. Add that - if the Dreamspike is switched to full range just before the invasion - the alarm will not reach Merrilor immediately. Sure, Perrin and Rand will know very soon anyway, but at least for some hours it will be the Band with Talmanes (and Dragons) to carry the defense - if they can get inside and defend the Inner City or at least the Royal Palace. The Waygate is in the New City, so the Shadow's army is within the outer walls but not immediately within the inner wall circles. Then both sides have channelers to add to the chaos: Asha'man and BA from the BT, BA (Duhara) in Caemlyn, Forsaken for the Shadow; Kinswomen, captured Damane, Windfinders for the Light.

By many aspects, this fight will be the focus of the first part of AMoL. The trip to SG will have to wait the resolution of this - and of the White Tower/Seanchan topic.
This looks good, but what if the gateways are opened on the side of Caemlyn opposite the BT? (and you may need to factor in Low Caemlyn) Especially since opening gateways directly in a place as densely populated as Caemlyn is risky at best

Lupusdeusest
02-17-2012, 06:54 PM
I'm rushed atm, but can someone find that bit in ToM when Mat is entering Caemlyn and thinks how defensible its innards (-New City) are?

Ialso have baking hands lots butter

GonzoTheGreat
02-18-2012, 04:12 AM
Ialso have baking hands lots butter
Good threat, that.

Mat glanced over his shoulder as the two of them crested a hilltop. Caemlyn was ablaze with the light of torches and lamps. Illumination hung over the city like a fog, grand spires and towers lit by the glow. The old memories inside him remembered this city-remembered assaulting it before Andor was even a nation. Caemlyn had never made for an easy fight. He did not envy the Houses that had tried to seize it from Elayne.

Lupusdeusest
02-18-2012, 04:28 AM
The Caemlyn palace was like another little city within the city inside the city. It had a low fortified wall, and while its peaks and spires rose into the air, it had more of the look of a war bunker than the Sun Palace did. Odd, how he had never noticed that when he was younger. If Caemlyn fell, this palace could hold on its own. They needed more barracks, though, within that wall. This camping out in the courtyard was ridiculous.

That was the passage I meant. Apologies about the "threat"; my hands were disgusting. I had two fingers free. We had our oven "fixed" the other day.

The Unreasoner
02-18-2012, 04:34 AM
He strode through camp, nodding to a group of passing Redarms. He had doubled the watch. He was worried about the gholam, but also about the many military camps in the area. Half were mercenaries, half were the retainers of this minor lord or that, coming to pay respects to the Queen— suspiciously arriving after the fighting was done.

No doubt each and every one was professing his heartfelt allegiance to Elayne, explaining that his men supported her all along. Their words probably fell a little flat, since Mat had it on good authority from three separate drunks in taverns that Elayne had used Traveling extensively in recruiting her defense. It was easier to feign a delayed arrival when you were responding to a written message.
...
His procession passed numerous camps on the open plains around Caemlyn. All mercenaries were required to stay at least a league away, but the forces of the lords could camp closer. That put Mat in a rough place. There was always tension between sell-swords and loyal armsmen, and with the mercenaries so far from Caemlyn, fights were common. The Band was right in the middle of it.

He did some quick figuring based on the trails of campfire smoke he saw twisting into the air. There were at least ten thousand mercenaries in the area. Did Elayne know what a bubbling kettle she was brewing here? Too much heat, and the whole bloody thing would boil over!

Mat's procession drew attention. He had one of the men flying the banner of the Band of the Red Hand, and his men were developing a reputation. By Mat's count, they were the largest single group—mercenary or lord's force—outside Caemlyn's walls. They were as organized and disciplined as a regular army, and were under the leadership of a personal friend of the Dragon Reborn. His men could not help bragging about that, though Mat would much rather that they had kept quiet.
...
The march through the New City was uneventful save for more crowds watching. Would someone recognize his face from those drawings? Mat wanted to get off the main thoroughfares, but Caemlyn's narrow streets were a twisting mess. A force of fifty horsemen was too large to move through those streets.

They eventually passed through the brilliant white walls of the Inner City, where the roads were wider, the Ogier-built buildings less cramped, and the population thinner. Here, they passed more groups of armed men, including Guardsmen in white and red. Mat could make their camp out ahead, covering the gray paving stones of the courtyard with their tents and horselines.

The Caemlyn palace was like another little city within the city inside the city. It had a low fortified wall, and while its peaks and spires rose into the air, it had more of the look of a war bunker than the Sun Palace did. Odd, how he had never noticed that when he was younger. If Caemlyn fell, this palace could hold on its own. They needed more barracks, though, within that wall. This camping out in the courtyard was ridiculous.
...
Low Caemlyn was growing, and enterprising men had realized that providing rooms and drinks for the transients could make a healthy profit. So shanties had started to become taverns, and those had begun to grow into full inns.

Wood was in high demand, and many of the mercenary bands had taken to woodcutting. Some worked honestly, paying the Queen's levy for claims. Others worked less legally. There had already been hangings for it. Who would have thought? Men hanging for poaching trees? What next? Men hanging for stealing dirt?

Low Caemlyn had changed drastically, roads springing up, buildings being enlarged. A few years, and Low Caemlyn would be a city itself! They'd have to build another wall to close it in.
Chapters 19 and 22
eta:
NM, looks like she found it herself.

GonzoTheGreat
02-18-2012, 04:41 AM
We had our oven "fixed" the other day.
Oh, I know that one. "Fixed" means "sterilised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutering)". :p

Lupusdeusest
02-18-2012, 08:11 AM
Oh, I know that one. "Fixed" means "sterilised (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutering)". :p

Actually, the guy just showed us a button we had to push for 5 seconds to get it going. Make of that what you will.