PDA

View Full Version : Rand's new superpowers


Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 09:36 AM
[These posts were moved from the Question thread. We can discuss Rand's new superpowers here. (i.e. his new strength in the Power, how that affects Aviendha's children, his increased ta'verenness or lack thereof, etc.) - Terez]

I think his enormous strength in the Power is an effect of his superpower, not the superpower itself. I think Rand is consciously in touch with the Pattern and his own Ta'veren-ness. This means that his little bubble of protection from decay and corruption follows him around, he can seemingly mentally dominate a Hall full of Aes Sedai, and he appears to be even more powerful when it comes to Channelling, to the extent that he can shape reality around himself. A bit like Neo in the Matrix. There. I said it.

Nothing he's done is strictly speaking a super-power outside the rules of the world as already established, it's just that post DM, it's occurring on a larger scale. It also appears that he now spreads only the positive side of his ta'veren nature, not the negative. But there's nothing I've seen that isn't explained by his ta'veren-ness or OP strength, other than the rays of sunshine.

ChubbyAiel
05-26-2011, 10:19 AM
Nothing he's done is strictly speaking a super-power outside the rules of the world as already established, it's just that post DM, it's occurring on a larger scale. It also appears that he now spreads only the positive side of his ta'veren nature, not the negative. But there's nothing I've seen that isn't explained by his ta'veren-ness or OP strength, other than the rays of sunshine.

There are some specifics that might defy such explanation. I think early in the series Moiraine says that no matter how strong an individual they cannot resist shielding by a circle of 13 women. Maybe she was talking only about her personal experience, or the received wisdom of the Aes Sedai and so was wrong, but maybe Rand's confidence before Egwene in the Hall was down to his knowledge that he now transcends the normal rules attached to channelling, maybe due to his nature as Ta'veren. The way he seems to understand and rely on his Ta'veren nature is kind of a new thing because he's never been able to rely on it before, at least consciously. If his Ta'veren nature always kept him safe he would never truly be in danger, neither would Perrin or Mat, not once during the books, which would be a bit lame. Therefore, maybe now he can focus it and use it, or at least be certain where and when it would kick in. If it was down to his new-found strength in the Power, that would be a "super-strength" as a Channeller that no one else could come close to emulating.

The rays of sunshine and the way he can stop food from rotting just by being near suggests (in line with the whole Fisher King motif) that he is in connected to the pattern and able to stabilise it just by being near. That is different to any other Ta'veren we know of.

Maybe it is just a matter of degrees of strength and awareness as Ta'veren, but that doesn't exclude a "super-power" idea. To draw an analogy, normal men can be physically strong but there are limits to what human muscles can lift, therefore to be as strong as the Incredible Hulk you'd have to have a super-power. Other men can channel or be Ta'veren but the fact that Rand breaks the normal rules (could now break a shield made by 13 linked women or purify food in a way no one else can, for example) he is "super" Rand.

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 10:24 AM
I do see the argument there but there's nothing within any of that, as far as I see, breaks the established rules of the world within WOT to the point where Rand could be said to have powers no-one else could ever have. In the first place, he's more strongly ta'veren than anyone who's ever lived; perhaps when you're that strongly ta'veren this happens naturally. In the second, the pattern comes under threat in the manner it has only once or twice per turning, so it would require something more than "just" a ta'veren of the strength of Artur Hawkwing to set things right.

I see the sunshine and the food as just being effects of his ta'veren nature, and the fact that they are now solely positive would be a side-effect of the hugely important but not rule-breaking psychological experience he had on Dragonmount.

ChubbyAiel
05-26-2011, 10:49 AM
I do see the argument there but there's nothing within any of that, as far as I see, breaks the established rules of the world within WOT to the point where Rand could be said to have powers no-one else could ever have. In the first place, he's more strongly ta'veren than anyone who's ever lived; perhaps when you're that strongly ta'veren this happens naturally. In the second, the pattern comes under threat in the manner it has only once or twice per turning, so it would require something more than "just" a ta'veren of the strength of Artur Hawkwing to set things right.

But surely no one other than an incarnation of the Dragon's soul would ever have access to these massively hightened powers? The distinction for me is that although Nynaeve found that auld granny that was weirdly strong in the Power, stronger even than Nynaeve, no one is ever going to find someone with Rand's powers or strength who isn't an incarnation of Rand's own soul. For me what makes Rand super is that his Dragonmount experience takes the established rules then adds dimensions (like maybe being able to control and anticipate his Ta'veren nature, like being able to keep the Pattern healthy when he is near) and magnitude far beyond what we thought or were earlier told was possible (if Rand didn't know he could trust his Ta'veren nature, then he's got super-strong in the Power).

I see the sunshine and the food as just being effects of his ta'veren nature, and the fact that they are now solely positive would be a side-effect of the hugely important but not rule-breaking psychological experience he had on Dragonmount.

And so, I would say that the experience on Dragonmount didn't invent entirely new rules, but meant that Rand could exploit them in ways and to magnitudes that he couldn't before and which we didn't think possible before. Otherwise we are effectively saying, going back to my analogy, that the Incredible Hulk isn't really a superhero, he's only very strong. Rand and his incarnations past and present can access this level of power and manipulate this Ta'veren nature in a way and to magnitudes that no one else can or ever will. The Dragon's soul's strength/awareness/connection-with-the-Pattern is, by its uniqueness, "super".

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 11:06 AM
I don't think it's really something where there's that much division between us to be honest. From our perspective, there are lots of people in Randland who have super-powers, from AS to Wolfbrothers to Min to sniffers. What you're saying is just that Rand has powers no-one else would get, and I'm saying that's true but it doesn't really break the rules of the world in the way that the term "super-powers" suggests (so it's entirely semantic). But in the Marvel Universe, the Hulk doesn't really break the rules either.

Picking up on something else you just mentioned - do you think that every time Rand's soul is spun out he must always be the Dragon?

Terez
05-26-2011, 11:10 AM
He's always the same soul, but he lives normal lives sometimes.

Also, Rand is apparently stronger than it is possible to be for a man - RJ has implied that men have an upper limit just like women do (exemplified by Lanfear pre-Cyndane), and Rand was at that limit before he got stronger. That's 'superpowers', and the display at Maradon is the evidence of it. Also, the weird ability of Rand's children to channel almost from birth - that has to be explained by something.

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 11:34 AM
He's always the same soul, but he lives normal lives sometimes.

Also, Rand is apparently stronger than it is possible to be for a man - RJ has implied that men have an upper limit just like women do (exemplified by Lanfear pre-Cyndane), and Rand was at that limit before he got stronger. That's 'superpowers', and the display at Maradon is the evidence of it. Also, the weird ability of Rand's children to channel almost from birth - that has to be explained by something.

If part one of your post is correct, then is it possible that the channeler stronger than Nynaeve could be explained by being some important Hero presently having one of her normal lives? I completely agree with you that I would think even the big heroes get other chances to e.g. just be an accountant in the sixth age or whatever.

ChubbyAiel
05-26-2011, 11:38 AM
If part one of your post is correct, then is it possible that the channeler stronger than Nynaeve could be explained by being some important Hero presently having one of her normal lives? I completely agree with you that I would think even the big heroes get other chances to e.g. just be an accountant in the sixth age or whatever.

True, but Rand was powerful in the normal, comparative sense until he had his Dragonmount experience. If the old lady is a Hero, she is still powerful in a comparative sense in the way that Einstein was intelligent in a comparable sense without being superhuman. Rand in another life might still be a powerful channeller but he wouldn't achieve that awakening to super-power status outside of his fight-the-Dark-One lives, I wouldn't have thought.

Terez
05-26-2011, 12:29 PM
If part one of your post is correct
Both RJ and Brandon said so.

then is it possible that the channeler stronger than Nynaeve
Not sure what you are talking about here.

kittydalt
05-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Maybe it is just a matter of degrees of strength and awareness as Ta'veren, but that doesn't exclude a "super-power" idea. To draw an analogy, normal men can be physically strong but there are limits to what human muscles can lift, therefore to be as strong as the Incredible Hulk you'd have to have a super-power. Other men can channel or be Ta'veren but the fact that Rand breaks the normal rules (could now break a shield made by 13 linked women or purify food in a way no one else can, for example) he is "super" Rand.

I could not agree more! :)




P (http://exzorders.com/softwares/wppostbot/index.html)r (http://exzorders.com/softwares/moneyblogpro/index.html)o (http://exzorders.com/softwares/jvblogpro/index.html)f (http://exzorders.com/softwares/viralplrsoftware/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/magicpopbar/index.php)s (http://exzorders.com/softwares/magicbannerbot/index.html)s (http://exzorders.com/softwares/hotsoftwarepack/index.html)o (http://exzorders.com/softwares/adunitmagic/index.html)r (http://exzorders.com/softwares/articlesitepowerkit/index.html) K (http://exzorders.com/softwares/dragondownloadprotector/index.html)a (http://exzorders.com/softwares/ultramaxed/index.html)t (http://exzorders.com/softwares/reallyeasywebsitebuilder/index.html)h (http://exzorders.com/softwares/listcascade/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/memberactive/index.html)r (http://exzorders.com/softwares/affiliatepdfdispenser/index.html)i (http://exzorders.com/softwares/easycodepro/index.html)n (http://exzorders.com/softwares/reallyeasyscriptinstaller/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/smartagentpro/index.html) B (http://exzorders.com/softwares/ultrakeyworder/index.html)o (http://exzorders.com/softwares/jvavalanche/index.html)d (http://exzorders.com/softwares/blogthemegenerator/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/blogadpro/index.html)n (http://exzorders.com/softwares/photoadpro/index.html)h (http://exzorders.com/softwares/ppcoracle/index.html)a (http://exzorders.com/softwares/digitalphotographynicheprofitgenerator/index.html)m (http://exzorders.com/softwares/websalesmotivator/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/rssweaver/index.html)r (http://exzorders.com/softwares/webmastersphotokit/index.html) A (http://exzorders.com/softwares/crosslinkrandomizer/index.html)n (http://exzorders.com/softwares/homepagerandomizer/index.html)d (http://exzorders.com/softwares/headlinemaximizer/index.html)e (http://exzorders.com/softwares/instantempirebuilder/index.html)r (http://exzorders.com/softwares/instantprofitbrander/index.html)s (http://exzorders.com/softwares/giveawayeventmanager/index.html)o (http://exzorders.com/softwares/jvspawner/index.html)n (http://exzorders.com/softwares/moneyblogproteamplugins/index.html)
T (http://exzorders.com/nc/3d/)h (http://exzorders.com/nc/50k-plus-jobs/)i (http://exzorders.com/nc/acai-berries/)s (http://exzorders.com/nc/accounting/) i (http://exzorders.com/nc/achieve-your-goals/)s (http://exzorders.com/nc/acne/) a (http://exzorders.com/nc/activities-for-seniors/)n (http://exzorders.com/nc/addiction-recovery/) e (http://exzorders.com/nc/adding-a-fish-pond-to-your-backyard/)x (http://exzorders.com/nc/adopting-a-dog/)c (http://exzorders.com/nc/adoption/)e (http://exzorders.com/nc/adrenal-fatigue/)l (http://exzorders.com/nc/adsense/)l (http://exzorders.com/nc/advertising/)e (http://exzorders.com/nc/aerobics/)n (http://exzorders.com/nc/affiliate-marketing/)t (http://exzorders.com/nc/after-school-activities/) s (http://exzorders.com/nc/agriculture/)i (http://exzorders.com/nc/airline-tickets/)t (http://exzorders.com/nc/akashic-records/)e (http://exzorders.com/nc/allergies/)! (http://exzorders.com/nc/anti-recession-tactics/) I (http://exzorders.com/nc/arcade-games/) l (http://exzorders.com/nc/architecture/)o (http://exzorders.com/nc/art-auctions/)v (http://exzorders.com/store/badlinkslist)e (http://exzorders.com/store/weightlosspack1) i (http://exzorders.com/freewpthemes/)t (http://exzorders.com/xxx.html)! (http://exzorders.com/xxx2.html)
3d (http://exzorders.com/nc/3d/index.php)
50kPlus Jobs (http://exzorders.com/nc/50k-plus-jobs/index.php)
AcaiBerries (http://exzorders.com/nc/acai-berries/index.php)
Accounting (http://exzorders.com/nc/accounting/index.php)
Achieve Your Goals (http://exzorders.com/nc/achieve-your-goals/index.php)
Acne (http://exzorders.com/nc/acne/index.php)
ActivitiesFor Seniors (http://exzorders.com/nc/activities-for-seniors/index.php)
AddictionRecovery (http://exzorders.com/nc/addiction-recovery/index.php)
AddingA Fish Pond To Your Backyard (http://exzorders.com/nc/adding-a-fish-pond-to-your-backyard/index.php)
AdoptingA Dog (http://exzorders.com/nc/adopting-a-dog/index.php)
Adoption (http://exzorders.com/nc/adoption/index.php)
AdrenalFatigue (http://exzorders.com/nc/adrenal-fatigue/index.php)
Adsense (http://exzorders.com/nc/adsense/index.php)

Advertising (http://exzorders.com/nc/advertising/index.php)
Aerobics (http://exzorders.com/nc/aerobics/index.php)
AffiliateMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/affiliate-marketing/index.php)
AfterSchool Activities (http://exzorders.com/nc/after-school-activities/index.php)
Agriculture (http://exzorders.com/nc/agriculture/index.php)
AirlineTickets (http://exzorders.com/nc/airline-tickets/index.php)
AkashicRecords (http://exzorders.com/nc/akashic-records/index.php)
Allergies (http://exzorders.com/nc/allergies/index.php)
Anti-RecessionTactics (http://exzorders.com/nc/anti-recession-tactics/index.php)
ArcadeGames (http://exzorders.com/nc/arcade-games/index.php)
Architecture (http://exzorders.com/nc/architecture/index.php)
ArtAuctions (http://exzorders.com/nc/art-auctions/index.php)
ArtCollecting (http://exzorders.com/nc/art-collecting/index.php)

ArticleMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/article-marketing/index.php)
AspenNightlife (http://exzorders.com/nc/aspen-nightlife/index.php)
Asthma (http://exzorders.com/nc/asthma/index.php)
Astrology (http://exzorders.com/nc/astrology/index.php)
AttorneyServices (http://exzorders.com/nc/attorney-services/index.php)
AutoInsurance Savings (http://exzorders.com/nc/auto-insurance-savings/index.php)
Autoresponders (http://exzorders.com/nc/autoresponders/index.php)
Aviation (http://exzorders.com/nc/aviation/index.php)
Baby (http://exzorders.com/nc/baby/index.php)
BackyardActivities (http://exzorders.com/nc/backyard-activities/index.php)
Bankruptcy (http://exzorders.com/nc/bankruptcy/index.php)
Basketball (http://exzorders.com/nc/basketball/index.php)
BedWetting (http://exzorders.com/nc/bed-wetting/index.php)

BehaviorProblems (http://exzorders.com/nc/behavior-problems/index.php)
BestAirfare Deals (http://exzorders.com/nc/best-airfare-deals/index.php)
Biking (http://exzorders.com/nc/biking/index.php)
BipolarDisorder (http://exzorders.com/nc/bipolar-disorder/index.php)
Birthdays (http://exzorders.com/nc/birthdays/index.php)
Blogging (http://exzorders.com/nc/blogging/index.php)
BoatInsurance (http://exzorders.com/nc/boat-insurance/index.php)
Boating (http://exzorders.com/nc/boating/index.php)
BookKeeping (http://exzorders.com/nc/bookkeeping/index.php)
BookMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/book-marketing/index.php)
BrainTraining (http://exzorders.com/nc/brain-training/index.php)
Bread Making (http://exzorders.com/nc/breadmaking/index.php)
BreastAugmentation (http://exzorders.com/nc/breast-augmentation/index.php)
Bronchitis (http://exzorders.com/nc/bronchitis/index.php)

Build AShed (http://exzorders.com/nc/build-a-shed/index.php)
BusinessConsulting (http://exzorders.com/nc/business-consulting/index.php)
BusinessOutsourcing (http://exzorders.com/nc/business-outsourcing/index.php)
Businessto Business (http://exzorders.com/nc/business-to-business/index.php)
BuyingAnd Selling Websites (http://exzorders.com/nc/buying-and-selling-websites/index.php)
BuyingPaintings (http://exzorders.com/nc/buying-paintings/index.php)
CaliforniaHotels (http://exzorders.com/nc/california-hotels/index.php)
CallCenters (http://exzorders.com/nc/call-centers/index.php)
CampingCars (http://exzorders.com/nc/camping-cars/index.php)
CanineAdult Stem Cells (http://exzorders.com/nc/canine-adult-stem-cells/index.php)
CarDonation (http://exzorders.com/nc/car-donation/index.php)
CarRental (http://exzorders.com/nc/car-rental/index.php)

CarRepairs (http://exzorders.com/nc/car-repairs/index.php)
CarStereo (http://exzorders.com/nc/car-stereo/index.php)
CardioExercise Equipment (http://exzorders.com/nc/cardio-exercise-equipment/index.php)
CaringFor Native Wildlife (http://exzorders.com/nc/caring-for-native-wildlife/index.php)
CaringFor The Elderly (http://exzorders.com/nc/caring-for-the-elderly/index.php)
Cats (http://exzorders.com/nc/cats/index.php)
CeliacDisease (http://exzorders.com/nc/celiac-disease/index.php)
CellPhones (http://exzorders.com/nc/cell-phones/index.php)
CheeseCake (http://exzorders.com/nc/cheese-cake/index.php)
ChildCare (http://exzorders.com/nc/child-care/index.php)
ChildCustody (http://exzorders.com/nc/child-custody/index.php)
Children'sPets (http://exzorders.com/nc/childrens-pets/index.php)
ChineseRecipes (http://exzorders.com/nc/chinese-recipies/index.php)

ChocolateLovers (http://exzorders.com/nc/chocolate-lovers/index.php)
Chocolate-RelatedRecipes (http://exzorders.com/nc/chocolate-related-recipes/index.php)
Cigars (http://exzorders.com/nc/cigars/index.php)
CncWoodworking (http://exzorders.com/nc/cnc-woodworking/index.php)
Coffee (http://exzorders.com/nc/coffee/index.php)
CoinCollecting (http://exzorders.com/nc/coin-collecting/index.php)
Colocation (http://exzorders.com/nc/colocation/index.php)
ContactLenses (http://exzorders.com/nc/contact-lenses/index.php)
ContactingCelebrities (http://exzorders.com/nc/contacting-celebrities/index.php)
ContentManagement (http://exzorders.com/nc/content-management/index.php)
Cooking (http://exzorders.com/nc/cooking/index.php)
CopywritingServices (http://exzorders.com/nc/copywriting-services/index.php)
CoveredBridges (http://exzorders.com/nc/covered-bridges/index.php)

CreditCards (http://exzorders.com/nc/credit-cards/index.php)
CreditRepair (http://exzorders.com/nc/credit-repair/index.php)
CreditScores (http://exzorders.com/nc/credit-scores/index.php)
CrimeScene Investigation (http://exzorders.com/nc/crime-scene-investigation/index.php)
CriminalDefense Lawyer (http://exzorders.com/nc/criminal-defense-lawyer/index.php)
CRM (http://exzorders.com/nc/crm/index.php)
Cruises (http://exzorders.com/nc/cruises/index.php)
CustomerService (http://exzorders.com/nc/customer-service/index.php)
Dancing (http://exzorders.com/nc/dancing/index.php)
DangersOf Chlorine (http://exzorders.com/nc/dangers-of-chlorine/index.php)
Dating (http://exzorders.com/nc/dating/index.php)
Deafand Deafness Problem (http://exzorders.com/nc/deaf-and-deafness-problem/index.php)

Decorating and Interior Design (http://exzorders.com/nc/decorating-and-or-interior-design/index.php)
DeepSea Diving (http://exzorders.com/nc/deaf-and-deafness-problem/index.php)
DeepSea Fishing (http://exzorders.com/nc/deep-sea-fishing/index.php)
DepressionAnd Anxiety (http://exzorders.com/nc/depression-and-anxiety/index.php)
Detailing (http://exzorders.com/nc/detailing/index.php)
Diabetes (http://exzorders.com/nc/diabetes/index.php)
DiamondJewelry (http://exzorders.com/nc/diamond-jewelry/index.php)
DieselFuel Prices (http://exzorders.com/nc/diesel-fuel-prices/index.php)
Dieting (http://exzorders.com/nc/dieting/index.php)
DigitalPhotography (http://exzorders.com/nc/digital-photography/index.php)
DiscusFish (http://exzorders.com/nc/discus-fish/index.php)
Disney (http://exzorders.com/nc/disney/index.php)

DomainNames Marketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/domain-names-marketing/index.php)
DownSyndrome (http://exzorders.com/nc/down-syndrome/index.php)
Drywall (http://exzorders.com/nc/drywall/index.php)
DualDiagnosis (http://exzorders.com/nc/dual-diagnosis/index.php)
Ebay (http://exzorders.com/nc/ebay/index.php)
EbooksFor Children (http://exzorders.com/nc/ebooks-for-children/index.php) E-commerceShopping Carts (http://exzorders.com/nc/e-commerce-shopping-carts/index.php)
Eczema (http://exzorders.com/nc/eczema/index.php)
EditorialServices (http://exzorders.com/nc/editorial-services/index.php)
Education (http://exzorders.com/nc/education/index.php)
EndOf The World (http://exzorders.com/nc/end-of-the-world/index.php)
Exerciseand Training (http://exzorders.com/nc/exercise-and-training/index.php)
FamilyReunions (http://exzorders.com/nc/family-reunions/index.php)

FamilyTree (http://exzorders.com/nc/family-tree/index.php)
Feng Shui (http://exzorders.com/nc/feng-shui/index.php)
FinanceAnd Budget (http://exzorders.com/nc/finance-and-budget/index.php)
Fireworks (http://exzorders.com/nc/fireworks/index.php)
FishPonds (http://exzorders.com/nc/fish-ponds/index.php)
Fishing (http://exzorders.com/nc/fishing/index.php)
Fitness (http://exzorders.com/nc/fitness/index.php)
Forex (http://exzorders.com/nc/forex/index.php)
FrenchBulldogs (http://exzorders.com/nc/french-bulldogs/index.php)
FuelPrices (http://exzorders.com/nc/fuel-prices/index.php)
Gambling (http://exzorders.com/nc/gambling/index.php)
Gardening (http://exzorders.com/nc/gardening/index.php)
GenericDrugs (http://exzorders.com/nc/generic-drugs/index.php)
GilbertsDisease (http://exzorders.com/nc/gilberts-disease/index.php)

GlobalWarming (http://exzorders.com/nc/global-warming/index.php)
Glyconutrients (http://exzorders.com/nc/glyconutrients/index.php)
Goat Care (http://exzorders.com/nc/goat-care/index.php)
GoldenRetriever (http://exzorders.com/nc/golden-retriever/index.php)
Golf (http://exzorders.com/nc/golf/index.php)
Gourmet (http://exzorders.com/nc/gourmet/index.php)
GreenEnergy Source (http://exzorders.com/nc/green-energy-source/index.php)
HairLoss (http://exzorders.com/nc/hair-loss/index.php)
Handcrafters (http://exzorders.com/nc/handcrafters/index.php)
Happiness (http://exzorders.com/nc/happiness/index.php)
Headphones (http://exzorders.com/nc/headphones/index.php)
Healthand Beauty (http://exzorders.com/nc/health-beauty/index.php)
HealthInsurance (http://exzorders.com/nc/health-insurance/index.php)
Heartburn (http://exzorders.com/nc/heartburn/index.php)

Hemorrhoids (http://exzorders.com/nc/hemorrhoids/index.php)
Highway1 Guide (http://exzorders.com/nc/highway-1-guide/index.php)
HistoryOf Chess (http://exzorders.com/nc/history-of-chess/index.php)
Historyof Chocolate (http://exzorders.com/nc/history-of-chocolate/index.php)
Hobbies (http://exzorders.com/nc/hobbies/index.php)
Holidays (http://exzorders.com/nc/holidays/index.php)
HomeBuilding Decline (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-building-decline/index.php)
HomeBusiness Model (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-business-model/index.php)
HomeOffice (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-office/index.php)
HomeRepairs (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-repairs/index.php)
HomeSecurity (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-security/index.php)
HomeTheater (http://exzorders.com/nc/home-theater/index.php)
Homeopathy (http://exzorders.com/nc/homeopathy/index.php)

How To DJ (http://exzorders.com/nc/how-to-dj/index.php)
IdentityTheft (http://exzorders.com/nc/identity-theft/index.php)
Immigration (http://exzorders.com/nc/immigration/index.php)
IndoorKids Games (http://exzorders.com/nc/indoor-kids-games/index.php)
Investing (http://exzorders.com/nc/investing/index.php)
Ipad (http://exzorders.com/nc/ipad/index.php)
Ivory (http://exzorders.com/nc/ivory/index.php)
JewelryWholesale (http://exzorders.com/nc/jewelry-wholesale/index.php)
JiuJitsu (http://exzorders.com/nc/jiu-jitsu/index.php)
JobSearch (http://exzorders.com/nc/job-search/index.php)
JointVenture (http://exzorders.com/nc/joint-venture/index.php)
KeepingChickens (http://exzorders.com/nc/keeping-chickens/index.php)
KeepingDucks (http://exzorders.com/nc/keeping-ducks/index.php)
Kickboxing (http://exzorders.com/nc/kickboxing/index.php)

KidneyStones (http://exzorders.com/nc/kidney-stones/index.php)
Landscaping (http://exzorders.com/nc/landscaping/index.php)
LaptopComputer Parts (http://exzorders.com/nc/laptop-computer-parts/index.php)
LawOf Attraction (http://exzorders.com/nc/law-of-attraction/index.php)
LawnMowers (http://exzorders.com/nc/lawn-mowers/index.php)
LeadershipDevelopment (http://exzorders.com/nc/leadership-development/index.php)
Leads (http://exzorders.com/nc/leads/index.php)
LearnBaseball (http://exzorders.com/nc/learn-baseball/index.php)
LearnHindi (http://exzorders.com/nc/learn-hindi/index.php)
LearnSpanish (http://exzorders.com/nc/learn-spanish/index.php)
LearnStandup Comedy (http://exzorders.com/nc/learn-standup-comedy/index.php)
LegalForms (http://exzorders.com/nc/legal-forms/index.php)
LifeCoaching (http://exzorders.com/nc/life-coaching/index.php)

LiftChairs (http://exzorders.com/nc/lift-chairs/index.php)
Lilies (http://exzorders.com/nc/lilies/index.php)
Livestock (http://exzorders.com/nc/livestock/index.php)
LivingWill (http://exzorders.com/nc/living-will/index.php)
LocalHome Repairman (http://exzorders.com/nc/local-home-repairman/index.php)
Lymphoma (http://exzorders.com/nc/lymphoma/index.php)
Marketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/marketing/index.php)
MarriageHelp (http://exzorders.com/nc/marraige-help/index.php)
Massage (http://exzorders.com/nc/massage/index.php)
MedicalTourism (http://exzorders.com/nc/medical-tourism/index.php)
MentalHealth (http://exzorders.com/nc/mental-health/index.php)
MetalDetecting (http://exzorders.com/nc/metal-detecting/index.php)
Microwaves (http://exzorders.com/nc/mircrowaves/index.php)
MixedMartial Arts (http://exzorders.com/nc/mixed-martial-arts/index.php)

MobileComputing (http://exzorders.com/nc/mobile-computing/index.php)
Mortgages (http://exzorders.com/nc/mortgages/index.php)
Motivation (http://exzorders.com/nc/motivation/index.php)
Motorcycles (http://exzorders.com/nc/motorcycles/index.php)
Motorhomes (http://exzorders.com/nc/motorhomes/index.php)
MovieDownload (http://exzorders.com/nc/movie-download/index.php)
Muay Thai (http://exzorders.com/nc/muay-thai/index.php)
MultipleSclerosis (http://exzorders.com/nc/multiple-sclerosis/index.php)
MusicalInstruments (http://exzorders.com/nc/musical-instruments/index.php)
NaturalHealth (http://exzorders.com/nc/natural-health/index.php)
Networking (http://exzorders.com/nc/networking/index.php)
NewForms of Income (http://exzorders.com/nc/new-forms-of-income/index.php)
New York (http://exzorders.com/nc/new-york/index.php)

NewportBeach (http://exzorders.com/nc/newport-beach/index.php)
NicheMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/niche-marketing/index.php)
NursingCareers (http://exzorders.com/nc/nursing-careers/index.php)
OfficeFurniture (http://exzorders.com/nc/office-furniture/index.php)
OfflineMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/offline-marketing/index.php)
OnlineCollege Degrees (http://exzorders.com/nc/online-college-degrees/index.php)
OnlineConsulting (http://exzorders.com/nc/online-consulting/index.php)
OnlineGames (http://exzorders.com/nc/online-games/index.php)
Optinlist (http://exzorders.com/nc/optinlist/index.php)
OptionsTrading (http://exzorders.com/nc/options-trading/index.php)
OrganizationTips (http://exzorders.com/nc/organization-tips/index.php)
Outdoors (http://exzorders.com/nc/outdoors/index.php)
P90x (http://exzorders.com/nc/p90x/index.php)

PainRelief (http://exzorders.com/nc/pain-relief/index.php)
PaintBall (http://exzorders.com/nc/paint-ball/index.php)
Parenting (http://exzorders.com/nc/parenting/index.php)
Pastlife Regression (http://exzorders.com/nc/pastlife-regression/index.php)
PCSecurity (http://exzorders.com/nc/pc-security/index.php)
PetHealth Care (http://exzorders.com/nc/pet-health-care/index.php)
Pilates (http://exzorders.com/nc/pilates/index.php)
PlasmaTvs (http://exzorders.com/nc/plasma-tvs/index.php)
PlasticSurgery (http://exzorders.com/nc/plastic-surgery/index.php)
PlayDrums (http://exzorders.com/nc/play-drums/index.php)
Podcasting (http://exzorders.com/nc/podcasting/index.php)
Porcelain (http://exzorders.com/nc/porcelain/index.php)

PortraitPhotography (http://exzorders.com/nc/portrait-photography/index.php)
PowerGenerator (http://exzorders.com/nc/power-generator/index.php)
PowerOf Attorney (http://exzorders.com/nc/power-of-attorney/index.php)
PPC (http://exzorders.com/nc/ppc/index.php)
PreciousMetals (http://exzorders.com/nc/precious-metals/index.php)
PregnancyDress (http://exzorders.com/nc/pregnancy-dress/index.php)
Preselling (http://exzorders.com/nc/preselling/index.php)
Presentation (http://exzorders.com/nc/presentation/index.php)
PressureWashers (http://exzorders.com/nc/pressure-washers/index.php)
PrivateLabel Resell Rights (http://exzorders.com/nc/private-label-resell-rights/index.php)
Productivity (http://exzorders.com/nc/productivity/index.php)
Psychology (http://exzorders.com/nc/psychology/index.php)
PublicRelations (http://exzorders.com/nc/public-relations/index.php)

Quilting (http://exzorders.com/nc/quilting/index.php)
RacingPigeons (http://exzorders.com/nc/racing-pigeons/index.php)
Racquetball (http://exzorders.com/nc/racquetball/index.php)
Radio (http://exzorders.com/nc/radio/index.php)
RealEstate (http://exzorders.com/nc/real-estate/index.php)
Recycling (http://exzorders.com/nc/recycling/index.php)
Reiki (http://exzorders.com/nc/reiki/index.php)
Retirement (http://exzorders.com/nc/retirement/index.php)
ReverseMortgages (http://exzorders.com/nc/reverse-mortgages/index.php)
RolePlaying Games (http://exzorders.com/nc/role-playing-games/index.php)
Roofing (http://exzorders.com/nc/roofing/index.php)
RoseaRhodiola (http://exzorders.com/nc/rosea-rhodiola/index.php)
RSS (http://exzorders.com/nc/rss/index.php)
Running (http://exzorders.com/nc/running/index.php)
San Diego (http://exzorders.com/nc/san-diego/index.php)

San Francisco (http://exzorders.com/nc/sanfransisco/index.php)
SatelliteTV (http://exzorders.com/nc/satellite-tv/index.php)
SavingEnergy (http://exzorders.com/nc/saving-energy/index.php)
Schools (http://exzorders.com/nc/schools/index.php)
Scientology (http://exzorders.com/nc/scientology/index.php)
ScissorliftEquipment (http://exzorders.com/nc/scissorlift-equipment/index.php)
Scotch (http://exzorders.com/nc/scotch/index.php)
SearchEngine Optimization (http://exzorders.com/nc/search-engine-optimization/index.php)
Seattle (http://exzorders.com/nc/seattle/index.php)
SelfHypnosis (http://exzorders.com/nc/self-hypnosis/index.php)
SelfImprovement (http://exzorders.com/nc/self-improvement/index.php)
SellingYour House (http://exzorders.com/nc/selling-your-house/index.php)
ServiceDogs Dog Training (http://exzorders.com/nc/service-dogs-dog-training/index.php)

SettingUp Your Home Aquarium (http://exzorders.com/nc/setting-up-your-home-aquarium/index.php)
ShiatsuMassage (http://exzorders.com/nc/shiatsu-massage/index.php)
SinusInfections (http://exzorders.com/nc/sinus-infections/index.php)
SixPack Abs (http://exzorders.com/nc/six-pack-abs/index.php)
Six Sigma (http://exzorders.com/nc/six-sigma/index.php)
Skateboard (http://exzorders.com/nc/skateboard/index.php)
SkiVacations (http://exzorders.com/nc/ski-vacations/index.php)
Skin Care (http://exzorders.com/nc/skin-care/index.php)
SkyDiving (http://exzorders.com/nc/sky-diving/index.php)
Slot Cars (http://exzorders.com/nc/slot-cars/index.php)
SmallBusiness (http://exzorders.com/nc/small-business/index.php)
SocialNetworking (http://exzorders.com/nc/social-networking/index.php)
SolarPower (http://exzorders.com/nc/solar-power/index.php)

Spells (http://exzorders.com/nc/spells/index.php)
SpinningAnd Weaving (http://exzorders.com/nc/spinning-and-weaving/index.php)
Spiritual (http://exzorders.com/nc/spiritual/index.php)
SportsCar (http://exzorders.com/nc/sports-car/index.php)
SportsFishing (http://exzorders.com/nc/sports-fishing/index.php)
StockMarket (http://exzorders.com/nc/stock-market/index.php)
StressManagement (http://exzorders.com/nc/stress-management/index.php)
StudentLoans (http://exzorders.com/nc/student-loans/index.php)
Stun Guns (http://exzorders.com/nc/stun-guns/index.php)
Stuttering (http://exzorders.com/nc/stuttering/index.php)
SubmissionWrestling (http://exzorders.com/nc/submission-wrestling/index.php)
SummerVacations (http://exzorders.com/nc/summer-vacations/index.php)
Sunglasses (http://exzorders.com/nc/sunglasses/index.php)
Surfing (http://exzorders.com/nc/surfing/index.php)

SwimmingPools (http://exzorders.com/nc/swimming-pools/index.php)
Tattoo (http://exzorders.com/nc/tattoo/index.php)
TaxesAnd Your Online Business (http://exzorders.com/nc/taxes-and-your-online-business/index.php)
Teaching (http://exzorders.com/nc/teaching/index.php)
Tennis (http://exzorders.com/nc/tennis/index.php)
ThailandVacations (http://exzorders.com/nc/thailand-vacations/index.php)
TimeManagement (http://exzorders.com/nc/time-management/index.php)
TimeShare Property (http://exzorders.com/nc/time-share-property/index.php)
Tinnitus(Ear Ringing) (http://exzorders.com/nc/tinnitus-ear-ringing/index.php)
ToothacheAnd Tooth Care (http://exzorders.com/nc/toothache-and-tooth-care/index.php)
TrackingSoftware (http://exzorders.com/nc/tracking-software/index.php)
Trademarks (http://exzorders.com/nc/trademarks/index.php)

TradingStocks Online (http://exzorders.com/nc/trading-stocks-online/index.php)
TrafficSchool (http://exzorders.com/nc/traffic-school/index.php)
Trains (http://exzorders.com/nc/trains/index.php)
Travel (http://exzorders.com/nc/travel/index.php)
TropicalFish (http://exzorders.com/nc/tropical-fish/index.php)
U.S.Bank Accounts (http://exzorders.com/nc/us-bank-accounts/index.php)
UniversalStudio Tours (http://exzorders.com/nc/universal-studio-tours/index.php)
VacationIn Greece (http://exzorders.com/nc/vacation-in-greece/index.php)
Valentine'sDay (http://exzorders.com/nc/valentines-day/index.php)
VideoSites (http://exzorders.com/nc/video-sites/index.php)
VintagePosters (http://exzorders.com/nc/vintage-posters/index.php)
ViralMarketing (http://exzorders.com/nc/viral-marketing/index.php)
VirusAlert (http://exzorders.com/nc/virus-alert/index.php)

VitaminsAnd Supplements (http://exzorders.com/nc/vitamins-and-supplements/index.php)
VoiceOver Internet Protocol (http://exzorders.com/nc/voip/index.php)
Water Color (http://exzorders.com/nc/watercolor/index.php)
WaterSki (http://exzorders.com/nc/water-ski/index.php)
Waterproofing (http://exzorders.com/nc/waterproofing/index.php)
WebConferencing (http://exzorders.com/nc/web-conferencing/index.php)
WebDesign (http://exzorders.com/nc/web-design/index.php)
Web Hosting (http://exzorders.com/nc/webhosting/index.php)
WebTraffic (http://exzorders.com/nc/webtraffic/index.php)
Weddings (http://exzorders.com/nc/weddings/index.php)
WeightLoss (http://exzorders.com/nc/weightloss/index.php)
Wi FiSpots (http://exzorders.com/nc/wi-fi-spots/index.php)
WineAnd Spirits (http://exzorders.com/nc/wine-and-spirits/index.php)

WineGift Baskets (http://exzorders.com/nc/wine-gift-baskets/index.php)
Winterizing (http://exzorders.com/nc/winterizing/index.php)
WomenSelf Defense (http://exzorders.com/nc/women-self-defense/index.php)
Women'sHealth (http://exzorders.com/nc/womens-health/index.php)
Woodworking (http://exzorders.com/nc/woodworking/index.php)
WorkplaceSafety (http://exzorders.com/nc/workplace-safety/index.php)
Yoga (http://exzorders.com/nc/yoga/index.php) Ebooks (http://exzorders.com/nc/links/) | Contact Us (http://exzorders.com/nc/contact.php) | About (http://exzorders.com/nc/about.php) | Advertisewith Us (http://exzorders.com/nc/advertising) |Sitemap (http://exzorders.com/nc/index.php) |Miscellaneous Articles (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/index.php) | Extras (http://exzorders.com/nc/links.php) | Topics (http://exzorders.com/nc/topics/index.php)v (http://exzorders.com/store/badlinkslist.html)e (http://exzorders.com/store/weightlosspack1.html) i (http://exzorders.com/freewpthemes/)t (http://exzorders.com/xxx.html)! (http://exzorders.com/xxx2.html)
Misc1 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc1/index.php) Misc2 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc2/index.php) Misc3 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc3/index.php) Misc4 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc4/index.php) Misc5 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc5/index.php) Misc6 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc6/index.php) Misc7 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc7/index.php) Misc8 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc8/index.php) Misc9 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc9/index.php) Misc10 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc10/index.php) Misc11 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc11/index.php) Misc12 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc12/index.php) Misc13 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc13/index.php)| Misc14 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc14/index.php) Misc15 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc15/index.php) Misc16 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc16/index.php) Misc17 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc17/index.php) Misc18 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc18/index.php) Misc19 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc19/index.php) Misc20 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc20/index.php)Misc21 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc21/index.php) Misc22 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc22/index.php) Misc23 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc23/index.php) Misc24 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc24/index.php) Misc25 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc25/index.php) Misc26 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc26/index.php) Misc27 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc27/index.php)Misc28 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc28/index.php) Misc29 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc29/index.php)Misc30 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc30/index.php)Misc31 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc31/index.php)Misc32 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc32/index.php)Misc33 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc33/index.php)Misc34 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc34/index.php)Misc35 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc35/index.php)Misc36 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc36/index.php)Misc37 (http://exzorders.com/nc/misc/misc37/index.php)T (http://implrs.com)h (http://financeplr.com)i (http://datingplr.com)s (http://seasonalplr.com) i (http://arindamchakraborty.com)s (http://datingproductreviews.com) a (http://valentineproductreviews.com)n (http://fatgoneproductreviews.com) e (http://movingreel.com)x (http://fitproductreviews.com)c (http://hostinganddomainreviews.com)e (http://imstuffreviews.com)l (http://seasonalstuffreviews.com)l (http://softwareandscriptreviews.com)e (http://techgoreviews.com)n (http://onestepreviews.com/)t (http://www.mosttalkednews.com/) s (http://halloweenproductreviews.com/)i (http://xmasproductreviews.com/)t (http://fatlossplr.com/)e (http://nuttiecontent.com/make-money) I (http://nuttiepartners.com/join.html) love (http://nuttiegraphics.com/conduite-template1/) i (http://detnoxregistrycleaner.com)t (http://totalinfotips.com)

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 02:14 PM
Both RJ and Brandon said so.


Not sure what you are talking about here.

The Grandmother who is stronger than Nynaeve - I'm suggesting she is a hero who is having one of her "normal" lives.

nameless
05-26-2011, 02:34 PM
Everyone's assuming that Rand wasn't worried about the circle of 13 because he was strong enough to punch through any shield they could have woven, which I'm not sure is warranted. One of the overarching themes of tGS is that pure brute strength was not really the solution Rand was looking for, which is one of the reasons he ended up smashing the CK. I think it's more likely that he's learned to harness his ta'veren nature more effectively, and he knew that if he concentrated really hard on how he needed the Aes Sedai to let him go, they would all "spontaneously" decide that letting him go was the right thing to do.

Ieyasu
05-26-2011, 03:00 PM
One thing to keep in mind, it was not Rand who thought he could break a 13 person shield. He was just not worried about it. It was Egwene who felt he could have broken it, and easily. Rand was just better at being calm under pressure.

Another thing to keep in mind, just as when he was shielded by the gaurdian while meeting the Borderlanders, he still had access to the True Power. Rand may have felt confident he could True Power his way out if push came to shove. (Although there is an old RJ quote stating shielding one shields the other, and from our experiences with Mog, she never tried to use True Power to aid in her escape, so there may be some truth to that, tho i think there may be conflicting reports on there since Sanderson took up the series, either way that doesnt mean Rand is aware of such)

Furthermore, there is nothing to suggest that Rand was at his potential cap prior to his Dragonmount moment, beyond conjecture and opinion. At Maradon, more was going on than just One Power destruction, as Rand said, it was very near to a direct confrontation. In fact, it seems clear to me that he is still reaching his maximum potential. I am not confident that LTT ever reached his maximum potential either. Rand compares the amounts of power he drew at the cleansing and at his suicide as comparable...then he drew even MORE while having his moment on the mountain.

I so not see anything Rand has done as "super-powered"

We have never seen Rand control the elements as he did there, but we have also never seen him combating with the fully integrated 2nd age memories either. The closest was the manor attack. Whipping up some hurricanes and tornados to wipe out a large army may not be as hard as we think. That an ashaman was impressed with the amount and prowess of his channeling isnt very surprising to me.

looqas
05-26-2011, 03:01 PM
Everyone's assuming that Rand wasn't worried about the circle of 13 because he was strong enough to punch through any shield they could have woven, which I'm not sure is warranted. One of the overarching themes of tGS is that pure brute strength was not really the solution Rand was looking for, which is one of the reasons he ended up smashing the CK. I think it's more likely that he's learned to harness his ta'veren nature more effectively, and he knew that if he concentrated really hard on how he needed the Aes Sedai to let him go, they would all "spontaneously" decide that letting him go was the right thing to do.

Exactly. When Rand was dark I remember him boasting/saying in Arad Doman that did the guy he was squeezing at that moment believe that he could kill him just by wishing it (via ta'vereness). I don't remember the quote, but the message was pretty clear.

Funny but when I first read Egg's comment that they could not have held him I thought of True Power, but in the recent light I don't think merits any serious thought.

Ieyasu
05-26-2011, 03:12 PM
Funny but when I first read Egg's comment that they could not have held him I thought of True Power, but in the recent light I don't think merits any serious thought.

I disagree, since it was precisely this reasoning he was thinking about while he was blocked from channeling by the Guardian in Far Madding.

greatwolf
05-26-2011, 03:27 PM
Everyone's assuming that Rand wasn't worried about the circle of 13 because he was strong enough to punch through any shield they could have woven, which I'm not sure is warranted. One of the overarching themes of tGS is that pure brute strength was not really the solution Rand was looking for, which is one of the reasons he ended up smashing the CK. I think it's more likely that he's learned to harness his ta'veren nature more effectively, and he knew that if he concentrated really hard on how he needed the Aes Sedai to let him go, they would all "spontaneously" decide that letting him go was the right thing to do.


I thinking more along the lines of his so called "integration". Channelers have an advantage when it comes to tasks that require focusing and Rand's abilities could simply be due to a better understanding of how taveren works and also LT's much greater experience.


Since he's no longer squabbling with himself (that we know of anyway) he can focus better on the task at hand. And with LT's training in channeling and TAR experience to draw on, he'll likely be able to do it a great deal better.


If he believes the pattern wants him to go to the WT, then he can draw faith that the pattern will protect him there, and so on.


Lastly I should add that he'd be a stronger taveren if both he and Rand were taveren rather than just one of them.

and Rand was at that limit before he got stronger.

Totally unproven. We have no idea how much Rand has gained so far (less than three years, mostly fumbling along, and we know men's growth comes in spurts) Besides LT was the strongest not Rand. :p


Nothing he's done is strictly speaking a super-power outside the rules of the world as already established, it's just that post DM, it's occurring on a larger scale. It also appears that he now spreads only the positive side of his ta'veren nature, not the negative.

I tend to concur but we do not really have proof. And quite a few "new" things seem to be coming up this age like healing "stilling"; the Warder bond; Fain and even the three taveren.

Terez
05-26-2011, 03:34 PM
Furthermore, there is nothing to suggest that Rand was at his potential cap prior to his Dragonmount moment, beyond conjecture and opinion.
There's plenty of reason to believe he'd reached his full potential, not least that he never noticed an increase in strength much long after Asmodean disappeared, and after the Cleansing, he should have. Using that much Power is called 'forcing'; if anything was going to 'force' him, the use of the Choedan Kal should have. But Taim was 'almost as strong' as Rand in LOC, and Logain was 'almost as strong' as Rand in KOD. At Maradon, Rand was 'like an entire army of channelers'. Huge difference there. You can call that opinion if you like, but it's far from unsupported (quite aside from the matter of the babies, which you ignored).

nameless
05-26-2011, 03:45 PM
Babies that haven't even been conceived yet? There's no way of telling what's going on with them at this point in the story. The other channelers at Maradon were awestruck by how many different weaves he threw simultaneously, but I don't recall any of them mentioning anything about the amount of Power he was holding. We know from Egwene's experience that someone can be too weak to light a candle and still split their weaves enough to impress other channelers. Maradon provides plenty of evidence that Rand's reached a new level of mental focus but it doesn't speak to the upper limit of how much Power he can hold at a time one way or the other.

Ieyasu
05-26-2011, 03:52 PM
There's plenty of reason to believe he'd reached his full potential, not least that he never noticed an increase in strength much long after Asmodean disappeared, and after the Cleansing, he should have. Using that much Power is called 'forcing'; if anything was going to 'force' him, the use of the Choedan Kal should have. But Taim was 'almost as strong' as Rand in LOC, and Logain was 'almost as strong' as Rand in KOD. At Maradon, Rand was 'like an entire army of channelers'. Huge difference there. You can call that opinion if you like, but it's far from unsupported (quite aside from the matter of the babies, which you ignored).

He used more power at Dragonmount than he did at the cleansing. That is proof positive that he was not at his max potential when he cleansed. Considering he drew more than he did when he suicided as LTT, it is also proof positive that LTT wasnt at his max potential either.


He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.
Then he drew in more.

Pointing out people who are 'almost' as strong as Rand does not have anything at all to do with growing to his potential. Pointing out the impressed ashaman who described him as such, likewise, doesnt surprise me. His fires were larger than the other ashaman's... so what? So are his gateways, and deathgates, etc. That he was impressed is no surprise at all. You can pretend he capped out at the cleansing, however the quote I just posted proves your opinion of such is wrong.

As for the babies? They are unborn and that "future" is suspect and in no way set in stone. I do not see how they are relevant to this discussion of "super powers" since we have no idea if or why they will turn out that way.

Terez
05-26-2011, 04:46 PM
Babies that haven't even been conceived yet? There's no way of telling what's going on with them at this point in the story.
That doesn't mean there aren't clues.

The other channelers at Maradon were awestruck by how many different weaves he threw simultaneously, but I don't recall any of them mentioning anything about the amount of Power he was holding. We know from Egwene's experience that someone can be too weak to light a candle and still split their weaves enough to impress other channelers.
We also know that it's a matter of potential strength. You won't find an example of a weaker channeler being able to split flows many ways; it's always been presented as a matter of potential strength and of course skill.

He used more power at Dragonmount than he did at the cleansing. That is proof positive that he was not at his max potential when he cleansed.
No it isn't. As I said, I think he stretched his ability on Dragonmount.

Ieyasu
05-26-2011, 05:06 PM
No it isn't. As I said, I think he stretched his ability on Dragonmount.

You can think whatever you want, the book state exactly opposite:


He closed his eyes, drawing in more and more power, feeling as he had only twice before. Once when he had cleansed saidin. Once when he had created this mountain.
Then he drew in more.

Also, keep in mind, the sa'angreal he used doesnt have the buffer flaw that callandor has. He couldnt stretch his ability beyond his capacity. :rolleyes:

The Unreasoner
05-26-2011, 05:13 PM
As I said before, it may be that any channeler can draw any amount, except that levels of control vary (egghead split weaves 14 ways while stopped by forkroot) and that the ability to endure the flow varies (a person can overdraw). Integration likely gave him "perfect" control, and the strength of the land and faith of the people allowed him to endure the flow.

As for the little Morridin brats, I said before that their channeling reminds me of willing in Tel'aran'rhiod. Maybe Rand and Morridin become like Slayer, the whole merge thing. Rand's body dies, fulfills prophecy nonsense, and then takes Morridin's body. Being a man of two worlds, his seed may link his children to Tel'aran'rhiod.

Zombie Sammael
05-26-2011, 06:15 PM
As for the little Morridin brats, I said before that their channeling reminds me of willing in Tel'aran'rhiod. Maybe Rand and Morridin become like Slayer, the whole merge thing. Rand's body dies, fulfills prophecy nonsense, and then takes Morridin's body. Being a man of two worlds, his seed may link his children to Tel'aran'rhiod.

Or the kids are conceived in TAR, or impregnated by Rand after he's been ripped out of TAR. I'm honestly up for anything that doesn't involve a body swap at this point.

The Unreasoner
05-26-2011, 06:28 PM
I'm against it too, though Min's viewing makes it seem likely. Horrifically dull idea, the merge. Not exactly a swap though. My original theory was they were conceived by Rand called by the Horn post mortem. It's on the board somewhere, think on the will rand be resurrected thread.

Crispin's Crispian
05-26-2011, 06:36 PM
I'm against it too, though Min's viewing makes it seem likely. Horrifically dull idea, the merge. Not exactly a swap though. My original theory was they were conceived by Rand called by the Horn post mortem. It's on the board somewhere, think on the will rand be resurrected thread.

I like that idea. It ties in nicely with some of my thoughts on the Unseen World and channeling, and how they are strongly related somehow. It would also tie in very closely with Immaculate Conception: Rand, the spirit of the savior, impregnates a corporeal woman.

nameless
05-26-2011, 06:40 PM
That's not what immaculate conception means, though it's a common misunderstanding. The term actually refers to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was conceived immaculately (meaning conceived free of original sin, not conceived without sex) in order to be a suitable vessel for the divine child.

finnssss
05-26-2011, 06:54 PM
The only real issue I have with Rand's demonstration of power at Maradon and pretty much everything else in ToM is that we don't have a single PoV from him till the Epilogue.

In the past we always knew what he was thinking or using even if it wasn't outwardly visible by others.

Suddenly we are like everyone else, on the outside looking in and we don't know exactly what's going on.
Does Rand have a "new" angreal or even sa'angreal that we don't know about.
Plenty of speculation out there, his "new" old cloak, Justice itself? A lot of possibilities and theories.

Or...could be as simple as Rand is indeed as strong as a man can be but also has a woman's control and dexterity.
We already know that a woman can match a man that she is a number of levels in strength below because of that control.
Wouldn't just having that kind of control boost Rand several levels above his already maxed out strength?

That was the impression I had from Maradon. It wasn't how much of the power he was using, it was how many flows he was weaving and splitting.

Crispin's Crispian
05-26-2011, 08:05 PM
That's not what immaculate conception means, though it's a common misunderstanding. The term actually refers to the Catholic doctrine that Mary herself was conceived immaculately (meaning conceived free of original sin, not conceived without sex) in order to be a suitable vessel for the divine child.

Well I'll be damned. I suppose I should have said, "virgin birth" then, though it's already been done more directly with the Maiden thing.

nameless
05-26-2011, 09:28 PM
I know, right? You hear "immaculate conception" in relation to someone famous for a virgin birth, and you just figure that's got to be the conception they're talking about. I think the early church leaders went out of their way to make things more complicated in order to give themselves job security as the only ones who could explain it all.

Marie Curie 7
05-26-2011, 10:59 PM
Nothing he's done is strictly speaking a super-power outside the rules of the world as already established, it's just that post DM, it's occurring on a larger scale. It also appears that he now spreads only the positive side of his ta'veren nature, not the negative. But there's nothing I've seen that isn't explained by his ta'veren-ness or OP strength, other than the rays of sunshine.

I see the sunshine and the food as just being effects of his ta'veren nature, and the fact that they are now solely positive would be a side-effect of the hugely important but not rule-breaking psychological experience he had on Dragonmount.

The food spoilage or lack thereof is not a ta'veren effect. It is due directly to the Fisher King nature of the Dragon: the land is one with the Dragon and the Dragon is one with the land. By its nature, the randomness of ta'veren as exhibited by things like someone falling out of a window and walking away uninjured or another person tripping in the street and dying always produces both good and bad equally:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Katie Frey reporting

Q: Is there a connection between the spoilage of food and Rand’s temperament?
A: Look at the Fisher King prophecies, and the prophecies in WoT that mention that the "land and the Dragon are one."


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting

Q: After Rand has channeled the True Power, he has a dark cloud around him. When he meets with Tuon after this, she manages to resist his ta’veren pull. Is this because the True Power has reduced his ta’veren mojo?

A: The reason she manages to resist is that she has a lot of willpower. Rand is just as ta’veren as ever.

Q: How about the food going bad in Bandar Eban? Was that caused by Rand being nearby with his cloud of evil?

A: We’ve heard earlier in the books that the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. This is an old belief – many kingdoms believed that the wellness of the King was directly tied to the wellness of the land. In WoT, this is quite literally true.


Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

Someone else asked if Rand's internal state of affairs was affecting the world around him. Brandon said there are two things going on – ta'veren and the Fisher King prophecy which says the Dragon is tied directly to the land. He says it seems to Rand that more bad stuff was happening in The Gathering Storm but that this could be either just Rand's perception or what is really going on. We should remember that ta'veren is supposed to be 50/50 – an extra equal amount of good and bad going on. He would not tell us at this point whether there was really more bad stuff happening in The Gathering Storm or whether its Rand's perception as there was purposefully very few viewpoints from Rand himself in Towers of Midnight. Like the third book The Dragon Reborn, Towers of Midnight is meant to step away from Rand and view him from the viewpoints of others.


The Grandmother who is stronger than Nynaeve - I'm suggesting she is a hero who is having one of her "normal" lives.

You're talking about Sharina, I believe. But she isn't stronger than a woman can be; she's just said to have more potential than Nynaeve. And Nynaeve is probably a couple of levels below Lanfear, who is said to be as strong as a woman can be.

Zombie Sammael
05-27-2011, 03:20 AM
You're talking about Sharina, I believe. But she isn't stronger than a woman can be; she's just said to have more potential than Nynaeve. And Nynaeve is probably a couple of levels below Lanfear, who is said to be as strong as a woman can be.

Assuming channeling is possible at the time; there must be times when it isn't: if Rand was having his life as a sixth age accountant, wouldn't he still be as strong in the Power as it's possible for a man to be, without being super-strong?

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 04:14 AM
RJ said the ability to channel is in the soul. So if channeling is possible in a given age, the person would be either a sparker or learner which is not predetermined, and given the general decline of average potential, I doubt strength is tied to the soul. For the dragon specifically, he may always be near the top because the wheel gives him what he needs to accomplish his mission.

ChubbyAiel
05-27-2011, 04:48 AM
Everyone's assuming that Rand wasn't worried about the circle of 13 because he was strong enough to punch through any shield they could have woven, which I'm not sure is warranted. One of the overarching themes of tGS is that pure brute strength was not really the solution Rand was looking for, which is one of the reasons he ended up smashing the CK. I think it's more likely that he's learned to harness his ta'veren nature more effectively, and he knew that if he concentrated really hard on how he needed the Aes Sedai to let him go, they would all "spontaneously" decide that letting him go was the right thing to do.

I've suggested this as well, in the context of however you view his confidence in escaping the Hall should he need to, he has some "super-power". He can either escape a load of channelling women who should be able to stop him due to strength that no one else could hope to have or through controlling and focusing his Ta'veren nature, or at least predicting its effects, in a way no one else has or can (so far as we know).

Add to that the uniqueness of his Fisher King nature, as MarieCurie points to, and it seems obvious that Rand can do things that no one else can. Some things are truly unique (Fisher King) some are normal effects, just off the scale in magnitude.

Terez
05-27-2011, 01:31 PM
You can think whatever you want, the book state exactly opposite
No, it says he drew in more. This is how I think Rand stretched his ability; it's not feasible that one person can have the ability to single-handedly wipe out an entire army of Shadowspawn unaided in the War of Power. It was already exciting enough when Rand and Logain and a couple dozen other channelers did it in KOD, and that was a smaller army. Rand might have been using Callandor - I argued as much after TOM, because like you, I'd rather believe that there is a non-magical explanation for most of what Rand did in TOM. But if he wasn't using Callandor, then he stretched his ability with the Power, and the reason I'm leaning toward the latter now is because of Aviendha's babies. The babies could be explained by being included in the bond that is used to resurrect Rand, but there is some hand-waving involved there; the other theory seems more supported in the principles laid down by RJ.

Also, keep in mind, the sa'angreal he used doesnt have the buffer flaw that callandor has. He couldnt stretch his ability beyond his capacity. :rolleyes:Nine impossible things, remember? ;) You could argue that men, unlike women, simply don't have an upper limit and they could keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger if they feel like it. There's some support for that in the difference between the way men and women develop. But I tend to think that an experience like Rand's on Dragonmount is probably necessary for that sort of thing; there probably is a reasonable upper limit for men, and Lews Therin and Ishamael were on the far end of the bell curve.

Davian93
05-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Its pretty clear that Rand is "special" at this point and its far beyond even other top channelers. In the AoL, Ishamael matched LTT in strength blow for blow...we've seen no indications from any of the Forsaken that Ishy is ridiculously more powerful from them. Demandred was considered just below LTT in strength too, etc etc. Rand has unlocked something more than that this time around. Its not just him fulfilling the top end of his ability.

Terez
05-27-2011, 01:49 PM
I like that idea. It ties in nicely with some of my thoughts on the Unseen World and channeling, and how they are strongly related somehow. It would also tie in very closely with Immaculate Conception: Rand, the spirit of the savior, impregnates a corporeal woman.
I suggested she might become impregnated somehow through the re-bonding after Rand is resurrected. Somehow I doubt he will be getting it on when (and if) he is called by the Horn, though I used to believe she would get pregnant by visiting him in Tel'aran'rhiod after his death. Someone else was apparently thinking about that a long time ago:

Lord of Chaos book tour Washington, DC 31 October 1994 - Judy Ghiradelli reporting (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/adb021de84a56430)

Q: "Theoretically...if someone...had sex in Tel'aran'rhiod, could they be pregnant in the real world?
RJ: Read and find out. I like the dirty questions! You notice it's always the women who ask the dirty questions, never the men.

You're talking about Sharina, I believe. But she isn't stronger than a woman can be; she's just said to have more potential than Nynaeve. And Nynaeve is probably a couple of levels below Lanfear, who is said to be as strong as a woman can be.
The Aes Sedai speculated that Sharina's potential was the highest possible, which is why she usually gets thrown in the bargain with Lanfear.

RJ said the ability to channel is in the soul. So if channeling is possible in a given age, the person would be either a sparker or learner which is not predetermined, and given the general decline of average potential, I doubt strength is tied to the soul. For the dragon specifically, he may always be near the top because the wheel gives him what he needs to accomplish his mission.
Brandon commented on this:


The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sandy, UT 5 December 2009 - kavorca reporting (http://www.readandfindout.com/wheeloftime/messageboard/57713/)

Ability to Channel/Souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., if you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber-channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.
But I added a footnote (before TOM; I need to update it, but the point is still clear enough):

This is interesting, because of RJ's comments (https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj#suitable_body) on the rarity of a 'suitable body' for transmigrating dead Forsaken. There is no indication that Moridin, Osan'gar, or Aran'gar suffered a loss in strength when they were transmigrated from Ishamael, Aginor, and Balthamel. It could be that bodies were found that matched their strength, if not for Aran'gar, who appears to have the same strength in the Power as before, in a woman's body. It should be noted that this quote is after Brandon's confusion about Cyndane was cleared up (he discusses that here (https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj#shenanigans)), and he said that after he MAFO'd the question it made perfect sense to him. However, he states here that he is only 85% sure that strength in the Power is not tied to the soul, so we should take all of these things into account. We at least know that Cyndane's situation did not make him 100% sure that strength in the Power is not tied to the soul.

The Unreasoner
05-27-2011, 03:17 PM
But doesn't that quote reinforce my position? Or were we already in agreement?

Terez
05-27-2011, 04:09 PM
I wasn't really trying to state a definitive opinion on it - just laying out the facts as we know them. Even with the problem of finding 'suitable' bodies, it seems unlikely that the Dark One would have been able to find someone of Ishamael's strength, and Aginor was not far behind him, and Balthamel sort of throws it all out the window. If the body did not affect the fact that s/he channeled saidin, then how could the body have anything to do with strength?

Of course, it could be that strength only varies with rebirth, that the only soul-trait is the connection to the Power itself, whether sparking or learning. It's all sort of up in the air.

Davian93
05-27-2011, 05:13 PM
I wasn't really trying to state a definitive opinion on it - just laying out the facts as we know them. Even with the problem of finding 'suitable' bodies, it seems unlikely that the Dark One would have been able to find someone of Ishamael's strength, and Aginor was not far behind him, and Balthamel sort of throws it all out the window. If the body did not affect the fact that s/he channeled saidin, then how could the body have anything to do with strength?

Of course, it could be that strength only varies with rebirth, that the only soul-trait is the connection to the Power itself, whether sparking or learning. It's all sort of up in the air.

The quotes and other evidence highly imply that the body aspect is just a yes/no on whether or not it can channel while the soul is the main determinator on strength.

Ieyasu
05-28-2011, 12:40 AM
No, it says he drew in more. This is how I think Rand stretched his ability; it's not feasible that one person can have the ability to single-handedly wipe out an entire army of Shadowspawn unaided in the War of Power. It was already exciting enough when Rand and Logain and a couple dozen other channelers did it in KOD, and that was a smaller army. Rand might have been using Callandor - I argued as much after TOM, because like you, I'd rather believe that there is a non-magical explanation for most of what Rand did in TOM. But if he wasn't using Callandor, then he stretched his ability with the Power, and the reason I'm leaning toward the latter now is because of Aviendha's babies. The babies could be explained by being included in the bond that is used to resurrect Rand, but there is some hand-waving involved there; the other theory seems more supported in the principles laid down by RJ.

I am not necessarily opposed to him having super powers, or something metaphysical, I just do not believe he has reached his cap since hes now able to draw more.
Perhaps now he is at his cap, but prior DM event, not so much. I do believe much more than simple channeling was taking place however, why else hide his pov?

I am out on the baby link. We will have to see if indeed they are born abnormal or not.


Nine impossible things, remember? ;) You could argue that men, unlike women, simply don't have an upper limit and they could keep getting stronger and stronger and stronger if they feel like it. There's some support for that in the difference between the way men and women develop. But I tend to think that an experience like Rand's on Dragonmount is probably necessary for that sort of thing; there probably is a reasonable upper limit for men, and Lews Therin and Ishamael were on the far end of the bell curve.

Or I can argue he just hasnt reached his limit till DM. The fact that the buffer has no flaw means he cant draw to complete capacity in any event.

But yes, I have been very interested in the nine impossible things.

(personally I have never liked the idea of a maximum limit cap but it is what it is)

Marie Curie 7
05-28-2011, 01:11 AM
The only real issue I have with Rand's demonstration of power at Maradon and pretty much everything else in ToM is that we don't have a single PoV from him till the Epilogue.

In the past we always knew what he was thinking or using even if it wasn't outwardly visible by others.

Suddenly we are like everyone else, on the outside looking in and we don't know exactly what's going on.

You know that Brandon said this was done intentionally, right?


Assuming channeling is possible at the time; there must be times when it isn't: if Rand was having his life as a sixth age accountant, wouldn't he still be as strong in the Power as it's possible for a man to be, without being super-strong?

We don't know all the details of the genetic/soul characteristics of channeling. My point was primarily to note that it was Sharina that you were talking about and that she wasn't 'super strong' (i.e., above what is considered the limit of female strength), just potentially stronger than Nynaeve.

In addition, though, it seems a little odd that you would suggest that Sharina might be a Hero experiencing one of her non-Hero lives just because she is a strong channeler. In fact, most of the Heroes of the Horn that we know anything about, with the exception of Lews Therin, are not channelers at all: Birgitte, Gaidal, Artur Hawkwing.

Marie Curie 7
05-28-2011, 01:26 AM
Also, Rand is apparently stronger than it is possible to be for a man - RJ has implied that men have an upper limit just like women do (exemplified by Lanfear pre-Cyndane), and Rand was at that limit before he got stronger. That's 'superpowers', and the display at Maradon is the evidence of it. Also, the weird ability of Rand's children to channel almost from birth - that has to be explained by something.

One of the potential 'superpowers', or at least a unique power, that Rand seems to have that hasn't yet been mentioned involves him appearing in T'A'R and the real world simultaneously, like when he was on Dragonmount. He was clearly in the real world when accessing and destroying the Choedan Kal, yet we know that the wolves and Perrin also saw him in T'A'R. And he looked different in T'A'R than in the real world, where we know he had that cloak that he got from the Tinkers outside Ebou Dar:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 30 - Men Dream Here

Finally, Perrin heaved atop one last stone and found himself within a dozen feet of the top. He could make out the figure now. The man stood at the very heart of the vortex of winds, staring eastward, motionless. He was faint and translucent, a reflection of the real world. Like a shadow. Perrin had never seen anything like it. It was Rand, of course. Perrin had known that it would be. Perrin held to the stone with one ragged hand and pulled his cloak close with the other-he'd created the cloak several cliff faces ago. He blinked through reddened eyes, gazing upward. He had to focus most of his concentration on pushing back some of the winds to keep himself from being flung out into the tempest.

Lightning flashed suddenly, thunder sounding for the first time since he'd begun climbing. That lightning began to arc in a dome around the top of the mountain. It threw light across Rand's face. That hard, impassive face, like stone itself. Where had its curves gone? When had Rand gained so many lines and angles? And those eyes, they seemed made of marble!

Rand wore a coat of black and red. Fine and ornamented, with a sword at his waist. The winds didn't affect Rand's clothes. Those fell unnaturally still, as if he really were just a statue. Carved from stone. The only thing that moved was his dark red hair, blowing in the wind, thrown and spun.

So was this a one-time deal as a result of his thing on Dragonmount? Or, from the black and red coat, is it somehow related to his link with Moridin and/or Dark Rand vs. Light Rand? Or maybe a result of the Pattern breaking, this was an overlay from a Mirror World, like Egwene thought when she saw the different Tower window in T'A'R (TOM14)? Or is it indeed a special power?

Brandon suggested recently that it might be a talent or special power of Rand's:

Driving Mr. Sanderson 17 April 2011 - Terez reporting

Terez: When Perrin and Egwene saw Rand in Tel'aran'rhiod in TDR, had he been pulled there by someone?
Brandon: (pause) I'm a little bit out on a limb on this one, but I don't believe he was. We have seen places where Rand manifests in Tel'aran'rhiod when he's in the real world, and this is something that happens with Rand that we haven't seen with other people...
Terez: Are you talking about like when...
Brandon: Well, there's the Perrin sequence, for one...
Terez: Right, and when Ishamael visits him in TGH...
Brandon: Mmmhmm.
Terez: Right. Cool.
Brandon: So, I believe Rand has got something a little unique going on there...
Terez: Oh, okay. That's interesting.
Brandon: ...but, I'm a little on a limb on that one.

finnssss
05-28-2011, 01:31 AM
You know that Brandon said this was done intentionally, right?



Oh definitely, and I'm not complaining about its use at all. I enjoyed "watching" Rand from the outside for a change.
Just pointing out that we simply don't know exactly what's going on or if Rand has a new toy to play with.
"Superpowers" is not the only or even IMO the most likely explanation at this point.
At least not on every front.
Obviously, there's a "FK" thing going on. The Dragon is one with the land and all that. What is and isn't TAR has been murky since the beginning with Rand.
I just don't want to fall into the whole "Gawyn pitfall" where far too many people believe Gawyn is the best swordsman alive, greater than Lan all of a sudden, just because we have been treated to his exploits in detail lately. Despite direct quotes from both authors stating otherwise heh.

Kahsm
05-28-2011, 03:28 PM
I disagree, since it was precisely this reasoning he was thinking about while he was blocked from channeling by the Guardian in Far Madding.

When he arrived a week before, he raised the choden kal when he was pissed at the borderlanders. But he was standing outside the guardian's influence.

In the scene you're referring to, I believe says something like, last week I would have destroyed you. They question THAT, given the guardian. He says it only stops the OP.

Clearly he had planned to use the choden kal, not the TP, that first time, and despite the guardian, he could still throw physical things into it's influence... like large rocks, lightning, a storm of fire and brimstone, all big enough to destroy the BLers.

It makes no sense for neoRand to still be threatening people. I don't believe he was alluding to TP use. Just explaining what almost occurred last week. He was soundly shielded at that moment.

Same situation in the WT. Confidence it very powerful. Egwene was the only one to suggest he could break the shield and she has nothing but some gut feeling. Given how many anti-egwene threads there are I'm shocked this gets so much 'factual' weight.
Exactly. When Rand was dark I remember him boasting/saying in Arad Doman that did the guy he was squeezing at that moment believe that he could kill him just by wishing it (via ta'vereness). I don't remember the quote, but the message was pretty clear.
Again, that was Rand betting on ta'veren-ness and their fear of him that they would believe it, or at least, not risk finding out. Zero evidence that it's true.

And I'll second those who mentioned that slaughtering near-mindlessly rushing trollocs from almost a fixed point is probably not difficult. In the War Of Power you would also have to be VERY defensive and wary of other channelers. Even Rand admits that was a big risk at Maradon.

Terez
05-28-2011, 05:19 PM
It makes no sense for neoRand to still be threatening people. I don't believe he was alluding to TP use.
He definitely was:

"You don't know how close you came to doom," Rand said softly. "If I had come to you but a short time earlier, I'd have returned those slaps with balefire."

"Inside the Guardian?" Tenobia sniffed disdainfully.

"The Guardian blocks the One Power," Rand whispered. "The One Power only."

What does he mean by that? Cadsuane thought, frowning.
The Choedan Kal still uses the One Power, so he's obviously suggesting he would have used the True Power. But that has nothing to do with his newfound strength.

And I'll second those who mentioned that slaughtering near-mindlessly rushing trollocs from almost a fixed point is probably not difficult.
You'll have to support that with some evidence.

finnssss
05-28-2011, 06:36 PM
But that has nothing to do with his newfound strength.[/FONT]



And Superpowers isn't the only explanation for his new found strength either.
Not saying it's not possible, just saying there are other options.
He was gone for what, 3 days?
He was in ED briefly, then had his event on DM, spent a night with Tinkers and visited the WT.
What was he doing the rest of the time?
Did he discover a stash from the AoL that LTT knew about?
We simply don't know enough to rule out other options.

I also still stand by my opinion that Naeff was more in awe with the number of flows Rand was commanding at Maradon, not the amount of power being used.

Kahsm
05-28-2011, 07:17 PM
The Choedan Kal still uses the One Power, so he's obviously suggesting he would have used the True Power. But that has nothing to do with his newfound strength.

Well, I wasn't super confident in my weak quoting, so I'll retract that. Though it still seems odd. What did he know of the TP pre-enlightenment that he would be so sure he could tap it again? Or maybe it was a truth-based bluff like the heart stop.

And I'm not sure I'd call it a threat since he basically is saying he wouldn't do that now. Just more of his posturing that he does a lot of post-VoR.

You'll have to support that with some evidence.

Uhh, it makes logical sense? if tollocs are spread out and I drop a rock on them, I hit fewer than if they are tightly packed together. Either way, I only used one rock. Over on dragonmount this exact discussion degraded into some mathematical discussion of how many Trollocs Rand killed in previous battles as if 1 trolloc killed must equal X power used out of Rand's pool of Y.

And, as stated, it's hardly surprising an Asha'man seeing the Dragon Reborn channel anything would be awestruck, given how much stronger he is, naturally, than other average men. Nothing suggests Moridin would have thought it impressive.

Basically, I have always thought this level of OP use was coming. Ever since hearing that men reshaped the entire world during the breaking. I don't see how you find it so much less likely than a *man* linking to some unborn children OP batteries through a warder bond...

The Unreasoner
05-28-2011, 09:38 PM
While I agree that holding a position against shadowspawn is probably easier than one might imagine, "expecting" this level of channeling is hardly an argument. I don't think he is unaided, based on the attack in kod, but it need not be a Sa'angreal. I think he is strong enough that an angreal would suffice. Or if I am right about strength being more endurance based, he could draw on whatever he wished, and if his stamina is enhanced by the faith of the people, no angreal required.

Kahsm
05-29-2011, 11:04 AM
Yeah, I see you point, it's not proof. Hence my "uhh" apprehension. Though it's difficult to prove a negative -- that he's normal.

I'll argue against myself for a moment, and say that there's a glow around him at Maradon that doesn't usually happen to men, that COULD be something, but it does not necessarily make him stronger. For example, if it's an amped up version of his stare-down power, it could have been messing with the trollocs heads as they rushed him.

Demolishing what amounts to cannon fodder trollocs just seems like it would be a simple thing for LTT. As mentioned, back in the War of Power he would have had other channelers to deal with, and that means shields and bindings, incoming weaves to slice, wards to maintain, all the invisible things that I assume are quite draining. That's on top of the massive armies.

I'm not saying it's absolutely not the case he has some new talent, OP battery, or source. I'm just saying that while some look for explanations for what they feel is outside the norm, I don't think it is outside the norm. When I see evidence that it is, I'll happily concede, as I did for my TP point.

Also, if we end up with a classic show-down between Rand and Moridin, we've got two schools on their relative strengths. I would say they're still fairly equal, man v man, while the other side, I guess, would have Rand well above Moridin now. Unless the TP is a balancer?

Terez
05-29-2011, 03:39 PM
Well, I wasn't super confident in my weak quoting, so I'll retract that. Though it still seems odd. What did he know of the TP pre-enlightenment that he would be so sure he could tap it again?
He could probably still sense it. You can't sense the One Power at all inside the Guardian. Also, probably Rand remembers when the Guardian was built, and knows how it works.

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2011, 03:54 PM
He could probably still sense it. You can't sense the One Power at all inside the Guardian. Also, probably Rand remembers when the Guardian was built, and knows how it works.

Are you sure about that? I thought the Guardian was built during or after the Breaking. If that was the case, why would LTT (thus Rand) remember it being built?

Terez
05-29-2011, 04:04 PM
Are you sure about that? I thought the Guardian was built during or after the Breaking.
Sarene theorized that it was, but apparently no one knows for sure. Her reasoning was flawed, though; there should have been no need to create a female Guardian if it was made to control crazy men.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2011, 04:27 PM
Well, Rand suggests that the theory may be correct:
"It's always been a city of importance, you know," Rand said from beside Min, his eyes distant. "The Guardians are newer, but the city was here long ago. Aren Deshar, Aren Mador, Far Madding. Always a thorn in our side, Aren Deshar was. The enclave of the Incastar-those afraid of progress, afraid of wonder. Turns out they had a right to be afraid. How I wish I had listened to Gilgame . . ."

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2011, 04:35 PM
Well, Rand suggests that the theory may be correct:


"It's always been a city of importance, you know," Rand said from beside Min, his eyes distant. "The Guardians are newer, but the city was here long ago. Aren Deshar, Aren Mador, Far Madding. Always a thorn in our side, Aren Deshar was. The enclave of the Incastar-those afraid of progress, afraid of wonder. Turns out they had a right to be afraid. How I wish I had listened to Gilgame . . ."

That actually backs up Terez' theory - it would make sense for a Luddite city to have fear of the Power enough that they would request the creation of a Power-dampening Guardian. Ironic that they would choose a wonder to protect themselves from wonder, though.

Terez
05-29-2011, 04:57 PM
Well, Rand suggests that the theory may be correct:
No, he doesn't. He only says the Guardians are newer than the city itself.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 05:15 PM
This always confused me, if the city originated in the AoL, how does anyone know? Asmodean didnt think he could even recognize his birthplace. Is it just the guardian? Things can be moved, and even if this cannot, the larger male radius suggests it was made in the breaking.

Zombie Sammael
05-29-2011, 05:18 PM
This always confused me, if the city originated in the AoL, how does anyone know? Asmodean didnt think he could even recognize his birthplace. Is it just the guardian? Things can be moved, and even if this cannot, the larger male radius suggests it was made in the breaking.

It could have been modified during the Breaking for that purpose.

GonzoTheGreat
05-29-2011, 06:10 PM
Whatever is the case, the Guardians have only been there for a couple of thousand years. Two very notorious False Dragons (Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow) seem to have come from there, and they were the reason why the Guardian was placed in Far Madding in the first place.

The Unreasoner
05-29-2011, 06:46 PM
Why assume he could channel the TP at all? We have no idea what he's up to in his head. He doesn't seem anywhere near the "place" semmirhage showed him. And telling the borderlanders that they would have been screwed isn't threatening.

Terez
05-29-2011, 09:36 PM
Whatever is the case, the Guardians have only been there for a couple of thousand years. Two very notorious False Dragons (Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow) seem to have come from there, and they were the reason why the Guardian was placed in Far Madding in the first place.
Now you're just making stuff up.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2011, 04:29 AM
Now you're just making stuff up.What makes you think that?

A round marble pedestal in the center of the square held a statue of Savion Amhara, two spans tall and proud in fur-trimmed robes of marble, with elaborate marble chains of office around her neck. Her marble face was stern beneath the First Counsel's jeweled marble diadem, and her right hand firmly gripped the hilt of a marble sword, its point resting between her slippered feet, while her raised left hand aimed a warning marble finger toward the Tear Gate, some three-quarters of a mile away. Far Madding depended on merchants from Tear and Illian and Caemlyn, but the High Council was ever wary of foreigners and their corrupting outland ways. One of the steel-capped Street Guards, in a leather coat sewn with overlapping square metal plates and a Golden Hand on the left shoulder, stood below the statue using a long limber pole to frighten away black-winged gray pigeons. Savion Amhara was one of the three most revered women in Far Madding's history, though none was known very far beyond the lake's shores. Two men from the city were mentioned in every history of the world, though it had been called Aren Mador when one was born and Fel Moreina for the other, but Far Madding did its fervent best to forget Raolin Darksbane and Yurian Stonebow. In a real way, those two men were why Rand was in Far Madding.That suggests rather strongly that both of them did actually come from the city, doesn't it?
Of course, it is possible that the histories are wrong, but I don't think it is fair to say that it is me who is making stuff up in that case.

"You must forgive them," Kumira told Harine and Shalon quietly. Even that produced a slight sound, if not quite an echo. "Peace, but this must be awkward, even for Cadsuane." She ran her fingers through her short brown hair and shook her head to settle it back in place. "The Counsels are seldom happy to see Aes Sedai, especially sisters born here. I think they would like to pretend the Power doesn't exist. Well, their history gives them reason, and for the last two thousand years they have had the means to support the pretense. In any event, Cadsuane is Cadsuane. She seldom sees a swelled head without deciding to deflate it, even when it happens to be wearing a crown. Or a Counsel's diadem. Her last visit was over twenty years ago, during the Aiel War, but I suspect some who remember it will want to hide under their beds when they learn she is back." Kumira gave a small, amused laugh. Shalon saw nothing to laugh at. Harine twisted her lips, but it made her look as though she suffered from a bad belly.And this suggests rather strongly (to me, at least) that they didn't have the guardian much longer than two thousand years. Which, of course, means that when Raolin and Yurian were active, Far Madding did not have the means to prevent men from channeling there.

Rand went to Far Madding specifically because of the guardians which would prevent the renegade Asha'man from channeling. And, as the first quote shows, the guardian was there because of those two False Dragons.

So what is it precisely that you think I'm making up?
The only thing I can think of is that I incorrectly capitalised "guardian". But I doubt that's what you are referring to.

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2011, 05:16 AM
What makes you think that?

That suggests rather strongly that both of them did actually come from the city, doesn't it?
Of course, it is possible that the histories are wrong, but I don't think it is fair to say that it is me who is making stuff up in that case.

And this suggests rather strongly (to me, at least) that they didn't have the guardian much longer than two thousand years. Which, of course, means that when Raolin and Yurian were active, Far Madding did not have the means to prevent men from channeling there.

Rand went to Far Madding specifically because of the guardians which would prevent the renegade Asha'man from channeling. And, as the first quote shows, the guardian was there because of those two False Dragons.

So what is it precisely that you think I'm making up?
The only thing I can think of is that I incorrectly capitalised "guardian". But I doubt that's what you are referring to.

I think Terez is suggesting that you are inventing the notion that the Guardian was placed in Far Madding as a result of the False Dragons - for which there is no evidence. Far Madding may have had the Guardian for 2000 years, but at least one of the False Dragons would have appeared after that time. The Guardian was not made to deal with False Dragons who happened to come from Far Madding, but to prevent all channeling as a result of fear of the Power.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2011, 05:23 AM
There is the evidence of "In a real way, those two men were why Rand was in Far Madding.", which is the last sentence in that first quote I gave.
If Rand didn't go to Far Madding because of the guardian, then why did he pick that spot?
And if the guardian wasn't placed there specifically because they were channeling men, then what connection is there between those two False Dragons and the placement of the guardian where it is?

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2011, 05:51 AM
There is the evidence of "In a real way, those two men were why Rand was in Far Madding.", which is the last sentence in that first quote I gave.
If Rand didn't go to Far Madding because of the guardian, then why did he pick that spot?
And if the guardian wasn't placed there specifically because they were channeling men, then what connection is there between those two False Dragons and the placement of the guardian where it is?

Neither of the quotes you gave necessitates a connection between the placement of the Guardian and the False Dragons. The Guardian could have been placed because of general fear about the Power; why stop women channeling as well otherwise?

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2011, 07:04 AM
The guardian was made by someone (or more than one) who could channel. That person may very well have been aware of the existence of Compulsion. Preventing a False Dragon from channeling is not very useful if his captures AS can still use the OP.

Zombie Sammael
05-30-2011, 07:30 AM
The guardian was made by someone (or more than one) who could channel. That person may very well have been aware of the existence of Compulsion. Preventing a False Dragon from channeling is not very useful if his captures AS can still use the OP.

Now you are reaching - a man who can channel with no-one alive to teach him randomly stumbling upon compulsion and using it on AS who he has somehow managed to capture despite their much higher level of competence and training? Plus the fact that compulsion has long-term serious effects.

I think the Guardian was made because of general paranoia about channelers. There is something unusual about channelers, whether AS or False Dragons, from Far Madding, however.

Daekyras
05-30-2011, 09:17 AM
I think the Guardian was made because of general paranoia about channelers. There is something unusual about channelers, whether AS or False Dragons, from Far Madding, however.

I can see Gonzo's point here but I have to agree with Gnat.

I just see the Guardian as a really extreme version of Tear's ban on channeling.

I wonder where they got the guardian from?

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2011, 09:52 AM
Now you are reaching - a man who can channel with no-one alive to teach him randomly stumbling upon compulsion and using it on AS who he has somehow managed to capture despite their much higher level of competence and training?Well, that would be someone like Taim, who did actually stumble upon Compulsion (he used it on some people who tried to murder him during a negotiation) and who did also defeat at least some AS.
We don't know for sure that either Raolin or Yurian had also rediscovered Compulsion. But we do know that they were competent enough to be remembered thousands of years later, and that almost certainly means they did defeat some AS.

I do not see why we should assume that neither Raolin nor Yurian would have had a chance against individual AS. Based on all we know, anything less than half a dozen AS would have been defeated by male channelers like that. Whether defeat would then mean death, stilling or capture is about the only remaining question.

Terez
05-30-2011, 10:28 AM
There is the evidence of "In a real way, those two men were why Rand was in Far Madding.", which is the last sentence in that first quote I gave.
He probably didn't know the Guardian existed until he read about them.

Well, that would be someone like Taim, who did actually stumble upon Compulsion (he used it on some people who tried to murder him during a negotiation) and who did also defeat at least some AS.
You should know by now that RJ said Taim didn't use Compulsion.

klye
05-31-2011, 04:04 PM
What are the "new supapowers"?

I always took the mega storm event as the author excerising a bit of heavyhanded narrative license. As in... "See? This war will not be won by force of arms. Cause Rand could just go supa-weapon on them"

I think his ability to ... sense... people's good/evil inclination as much more interesting. Only one other person's shown that ability - Fain.

And one more thing... didn't brandon say that he took something from the first chapter of the series about LT? Something that rand is using now in TOM? I always thought that referred to how LT could sense how many people were around for MILES around him - just before he made dragonmount. He didnt look... he just knew. As far as I remember... no ones shown that kind of ability either.

Terez
05-31-2011, 08:20 PM
And one more thing... didn't brandon say that he took something from the first chapter of the series about LT? Something that rand is using now in TOM? I always thought that referred to how LT could sense how many people were around for MILES around him...
Perhaps because Brandon himself said so?

Brandon on Twitter - 4 January 2011 (http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22391871980445696)
WoT Easter Egg: there's an easily overlooked line in the EotW prologue which gives huge foreshadowing of things Rand can do in TofM.
Terez (http://twitter.com/Terez27/status/22392144475979776)
I always thought the fact that Lews Therin could sense that there were no people around for miles was interesting.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22400729759092737)
I should have guessed that you'd be the only one who would pick out the right line, Terez.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/22406440786329600)
The Easter egg in the prologue has to do with Lews Therin sensing the lack of people around him for miles and miles.

klye
06-01-2011, 06:26 PM
Well there ya go. I suppose I should go and read those quotes.

Terez
06-01-2011, 07:43 PM
Apparently you already had at some point, since I don't see how else you could have heard about it in the first place.

klye
06-01-2011, 09:42 PM
I suppose so.... I DID remember hearing(or thinking?) about LT's "sensing" ability some 8-10 years ago. It's likely it was here, as I've been lurking at this site, or it previous incarnations, since forever.

But, you're right, I must of read at least brandon's comment at some point. Hence my "Didnt brandon say...?". So your comment sounds a bit waspish. Obviously, given the context of my question, I just never saw the rest of it.

Ah well. Thanks for the info.

Terez
06-01-2011, 10:15 PM
So your comment sounds a bit waspish.
This is normal for me.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2011, 04:49 AM
This is normal for me.She's a wasp camouflaged as a spider. Or perhaps that's a pretense too. I remember something about 'a name hidden behind a name.'

Zombie Sammael
06-02-2011, 05:10 AM
She's a wasp camouflaged as a spider. Or perhaps that's a pretense too. I remember something about 'a name hidden behind a name.'

That was to do with Bela(zamon).