PDA

View Full Version : How to destroy the Dark One and other random musings


neurotopia
05-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Long time listener, first time caller. Apologies if nothing here is new under the sun, but I can't possibly keep up with everything that's been written :)

RJ has stated that there is a finite amount of the OP, and that weaves are recycled back to the True Source. If this were not true, saidin could not have been cleansed (infinite source=infinite surface= infinite taint, and nobody could use the Choedan Kal long enough to siphon off infinite taint). But, since there is a finite amount of OP, it is at least theoretically possible to permanently deplete the amount of OP available (or even permanently destroy it completely.) How?

Crossing the streams. We all know that something significant happened when balefire contacted balefire in Shadar Logoth.

But not just any balefire. Two OP weaves that contact as balefire will effectively cancel one another out, but as they originate from the same source no net OP is lost (weave 1 burns weave 2 out of the pattern, but at the same time weave 2 burns weave 1 out of the pattern, so no net loss of OP occurs as the weaves will, in essence, never have left the True Source). There is a paradox here (the weaves must have existed in order to not exist), but one that the Pattern can rectify easily; since the OP drives the Wheel, if the weaves were never made there is no loss of the OP and the Wheel continues to turn.

If a TP balefire weave contacts a OP balefire weave, something different happens. The TP originates from a source outside the pattern. Thus, when TP balefire contacts OP balefire, the OP weaves themselves are destroyed. Likewise the TP weaves are also destroyed. They cannot return to their respective sources. This leads to an unresolvable paradox; balefire must have been woven in order to not have been woven. But the weaves were burnt out, and the Pattern doesn’t have control over the TP any more than the TP controls the Pattern (except in the same sense that TP traveling “rips” the Pattern; they are destructive to one another). The Pattern has to do some serious philosophical juggling here, and rectifies the discrepancy by unifying the weaves’ point of origin; hence Rand and Moridin are bound. You can see where this creates many problems with many potential solutions, not all of them good. As Rand now has access to the TP against the DO's will (apparently), Min's 3-as-1 Callandor prophesy interpretation becomes a bit more interesting.

One possible outcome is that the Dark One can effectively be destroyed (or at least rendered completely impotent). As long as there is more OP than TP in the Jordanverse, it is theoretically possible to eliminate all of the TP. With no TP, the Dark One could walk Randland freely but powerless, or theoretically be bound forever outside the pattern, or potentially even get killed for realz. If there are equal amounts of OP and TP in the Jordanverse, it is possible to eliminate the DO and also release Randland into linear time (total destruction of OP means no more turnings of the Wheel, and total destruction of the TP means no danger of having the Pattern be unmade). If Rand decides to try and eliminate the TP and finds that there is more TP than OP, well, we can all figure out what happens then.

Another possibility is that the DO can be rendered
powerless and woven into the Pattern, using Callandor, perhaps becoming what Mierin originally envisioned as a 3rd power that can be tapped by all.

So I wonder if death can actually uncouple Rand and Moridin. Much like Slayer/Luc is the man with two souls, we have something unique here, or at least unique to the age. The Pattern has unified them out of necessity. I wonder if even the Lord of the Grave can undo this unification, and to what degree He can take advantage of what has happened.

Has the Pattern created a second Fisher, of sorts? Can the Bore only be sealed by having the DO’s champion “defect” and choose it, much like Rand as the Light’s champion has to choose to unmake the Pattern in order for the DO to be free? Perhaps there are other ways to destroy the DO as well.

I myself lean toward the Fain-as-nouveau-Dark-One ending, as it is simultaneously the most interesting and the most predictable. Rand manages to destroy the DO/TP. I imagine that to do so, Rand will actually have to unmake the Pattern to some degree (not just break the seals) possibly using Tel'aran'rhiod as raw material to rebuild. But the Pattern, which exists to imprison the DO, requires that a DO exist. Fain is already a wild card and needs to be brought back into balance for order to be maintained. Hence Fain ends up in the DO’s prison, much to Randland’s misgivings, and the Wheel continues to turn.

I'd love to see people's thoughts on this.

nameless
05-31-2011, 04:44 PM
I think the flaw here is the assumption that a weave that is balefired never returns to the Source. Balefire creates temporal paradoxes, but it doesn't erase things entirely. The weave struck by balefire will return to the Source before the balefire actually hit it, not vanish into thin air.

The Unreasoner
05-31-2011, 04:49 PM
just on the first point, it is possible to have infinite surface area but finite volume. one example is gabriel's horn. rj did say the taint couldn't have been used up.

nameless
05-31-2011, 04:57 PM
I like the idea that the Source is a fractal.

neurotopia
05-31-2011, 09:06 PM
I think the flaw here is the assumption that a weave that is balefired never returns to the Source. Balefire creates temporal paradoxes, but it doesn't erase things entirely. The weave struck by balefire will return to the Source before the balefire actually hit it, not vanish into thin air.

But is that the case with balefire from OP and TP contacting each other?

The Unreasoner
05-31-2011, 10:04 PM
that was actually one of my first theories on killing the dark one, just annihilate him with pure op. the "price" would be give up the op, and all of the addicts would likely get pissed off.

however, aviendha's vision of the future is presumably one where rand is successful, and the op is still around so...

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 06:21 AM
that was actually one of my first theories on killing the dark one, just annihilate him with pure op. the "price" would be give up the op, and all of the addicts would likely get pissed off.

however, aviendha's vision of the future is presumably one where rand is successful, and the op is still around so...

I would be very careful about putting too much weight (or any weight at all) on Avi's vision. For narrative reasons, it's highly unlikely that it will come to pass; it was put in not as foreshadowing but as a hook to get people interested. There may be some small elements of foreshadowing in it but regarding it as being authoritative about major plot details, such as the fate of the DO, the Seanchan, or the White Tower, would be foolhardy in the extreme.

I think this is an interesting idea. Something complicated from a physical or metaphysical standpoint is bound to happen, and it's sure to be surprising.

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2011, 07:05 AM
I think that her vision was a self-denying prophecy. It would have come true if she hadn't seen it, but now that she has, it won't.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 07:07 AM
I think that her vision was a self-denying prophecy. It would have come true if she hadn't seen it, but now that she has, it won't.

Well, in story, Avi still has a lot to do to avert it, but taking a step back and looking at it from a plot construction point of view, there'd better be a damn good reason why if she fails.

nameless
06-01-2011, 01:24 PM
But is that the case with balefire from OP and TP contacting each other?

Good question. There may be a sort of matter/antimatter reaction in which the two Powers obliterate each other entirely. Is there any instance besides the balefire streams where we see the two interact? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.

The Unreasoner
06-01-2011, 01:34 PM
I don't think it will come to pass, but it obviously depicts a future where the dragon is victorious, and I doubt Aviendha's work with the aiel will really change the plan for Shayol ghul. Maybe all of the aiel die instead and the meradin are the remnant and somehow that eliminates the need for op, but I doubt it.

Of course there could be some sort of weavable mashadar, or excess op, so the thing works.

I am all for it, I have said many times, I think the do will die.

GonzoTheGreat
06-01-2011, 04:30 PM
Good question. There may be a sort of matter/antimatter reaction in which the two Powers obliterate each other entirely. Is there any instance besides the balefire streams where we see the two interact? Off the top of my head I can't think of any.According to some, Ishamael used the TP in his fights with Rand. If so, then that would be interactions too, as Rand used the OP to ward off those attacks.

Of course, I have some doubt about Ishamael using the TP in all those cases*, which means that I can't be sure there actually have been such interactions. Tricky, that one.

* I think that in the fight in the Stone, he used the OP to Travel to TAR. That's why Rand could duplicate what he did and follow.

Zombie Sammael
06-01-2011, 05:07 PM
* I think that in the fight in the Stone, he used the OP to Travel to TAR. That's why Rand could duplicate what he did and follow.

That is either true, or evidence for a pet theory of mine - good catch! If it is Ishy using the OP, then I think that's a relatively rare example of him doing so. He uses the TP for most things.

Tree Brother
06-02-2011, 01:19 PM
That is either true, or evidence for a pet theory of mine - good catch! If it is Ishy using the OP, then I think that's a relatively rare example of him doing so. He uses the TP for most things.

Has there ever been an example of using the TP to get to TAR? Btw, how often has Ishamael gone to TAR in the flesh?

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 01:44 PM
I would think he always does, unless he is the forsaken dreamer. And Often, Lanfear said he made free use of her domain, though she could have just been pissed he was there at all.

Tree Brother
06-02-2011, 11:19 PM
I would think he always does, unless he is the forsaken dreamer. And Often, Lanfear said he made free use of her domain, though she could have just been pissed he was there at all.

I am pretty sure Ishamael is a Dreamwalker.

There have been many threads about this here. He pulled Rand, Mat and Perrin into TAR in the early books, he spends a lot of time there, and it is stated that some things (dark things) are stronger in TAR. He has been unbound a lot, and I think has done a lot of his work though TAR during this time.

Terez
06-02-2011, 11:33 PM
There have been many threads about this here. He pulled Rand, Mat and Perrin into TAR in the early books
Brandon says he didn't; he was manipulating their dreams from the outside. That being said, he's probably a Dreamwalker.

Marie Curie 7
06-03-2011, 12:54 AM
That is either true, or evidence for a pet theory of mine - good catch! If it is Ishy using the OP, then I think that's a relatively rare example of him doing so. He uses the TP for most things.

Whether or not Ishamael used the True Power to enter TAR in that particular scene has been hotly discussed many, many times over the years. Some believe that he used the One Power in the Stone; others believe he pretty much exclusively used the True Power. Here are just a few examples of some more recent of the discussions: here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=391), here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3725), and here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4429).

Marie Curie 7
06-04-2011, 12:44 AM
But not just any balefire. Two OP weaves that contact as balefire will effectively cancel one another out, but as they originate from the same source no net OP is lost (weave 1 burns weave 2 out of the pattern, but at the same time weave 2 burns weave 1 out of the pattern, so no net loss of OP occurs as the weaves will, in essence, never have left the True Source). There is a paradox here (the weaves must have existed in order to not exist), but one that the Pattern can rectify easily; since the OP drives the Wheel, if the weaves were never made there is no loss of the OP and the Wheel continues to turn.

RJ said that the balefire weave exists outside of time.

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

Paul Ward: (Possible questions: Does balefire affect itself? Can you balefire balefire? If you balefire another person, but then you get balefired, what happens to the person you balefire?)

RJ: The balefire weave exists wholly or partly outside time, which removes it from its own effect.


One possible outcome is that the Dark One can effectively be destroyed (or at least rendered completely impotent). As long as there is more OP than TP in the Jordanverse, it is theoretically possible to eliminate all of the TP. With no TP, the Dark One could walk Randland freely but powerless, or theoretically be bound forever outside the pattern, or potentially even get killed for realz. If there are equal amounts of OP and TP in the Jordanverse, it is possible to eliminate the DO and also release Randland into linear time (total destruction of OP means no more turnings of the Wheel, and total destruction of the TP means no danger of having the Pattern be unmade). If Rand decides to try and eliminate the TP and finds that there is more TP than OP, well, we can all figure out what happens then.

You seem to come close to asserting here that the Dark One and the True Power are nearly synonymous (not quite, I know). However, the Dark One is the source of the True Power, but the whole of him is more than the True Power. And the True Power effectively can be described as the energy produced by the Dark One.

Letter to Paul Ward from RJ - March 2000

Q: (paraphrased) Is the DO pure TP? Why does the Creator ignore Randland except to talk to Rand at the end of TEotW?

RJ: No, the Dark One is not pure True Power. Who says the Creator takes little interest in the activities of mankind? And I will neither confirm nor deny that the Creator spoke to Rand.


TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 4 - The Fall Into Shadow

The resulting backlash destroyed the floating Sharom, shattering it like the egg it so resembled, and creating ripples in the fabric of reality as shock waves from the breach shook the pattern. It was not an indivisible source of the One Power the team had discovered, but the place outside the pattern where the Dark One had been imprisoned since the moment of creation. The emanations that Mierin and the others had sensed with such hope were his dark energies, trapped just beyond the thin place in the pattern that covered his prison. The hole they created has been ever after known as the Bore.


So I wonder if death can actually uncouple Rand and Moridin. Much like Slayer/Luc is the man with two souls, we have something unique here, or at least unique to the age. The Pattern has unified them out of necessity. I wonder if even the Lord of the Grave can undo this unification, and to what degree He can take advantage of what has happened.

Brandon indicated that Rand's and Moridin's souls are often intertwined.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Powell's Books, Portland, OR 19 November 2009 - Matrimony Cauthon reporting

I didn't hear the question but someone asked something about Rand's and Moridin's souls being intertwined. Sanderson said that many souls' threads are frequently woven together in the Pattern such as Birgitte and Gaidal. He said that Rand and Moridin are also frequently woven together in the Pattern.

And while there certainly are some unique features of the link between Rand and Moridin, there are many souls in Randland that are linked in some way, so the link isn't really all that unique. For example, Rand not only shares the link with Moridin, but he has the swirly colors link with Mat and Perrin. In addition he has the Warder bond with his harem as well as with Alanna. While the Warder bond seems to be less specific than the links with Moridin or the other ta'veren, it provides some knowledge about the other person. And Warders and Aes Sedai who are bonded all share that sort of link, which is why it doesn't seem all that unusual.