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sartho
06-02-2011, 09:39 AM
I guess my previous question got a little lost in the debate, and that's cool, I kinda forgot about it aw well. lol

The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?

I reposted this question because I have another one as well.

I've searched for all references of the OP, and I don't think I've seen this asked here, but how do you this the first channelers learned to channel? Do you think they had some kind of mental discipline to help them, like the void and the flower, or were they all like wilders, eventually learning how to do it on their own?

Sorry if this question is way out there, but it's something that has been bugging me, because many males in the book already know the flame and void, and the AS teach novices about the flower technique.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2011, 10:09 AM
The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?It is more likely that it was comparable to the fight scene in the end of TGH, where Rand and Ishamael both went into some "extra dimension".

Note: it is very inaccurate to call it an "extra dimension". But then, it probably is no more inaccurate than any other description, and this one should work pretty well.

Tamyrlin
06-02-2011, 10:17 AM
The question was did Rand Travel at the Eye in EotW, and if so, was it like what LTT and Ish did in the prologue?



Can you quote the particular text? There is a section where Rand walks up steps which appear to be a doorway into the Void or the reflection of the Void.

Tree Brother
06-02-2011, 11:58 AM
Can you quote the particular text? There is a section where Rand walks up steps which appear to be a doorway into the Void or the reflection of the Void.

I think this was just Skimming, which was further developed in later books. The part that didn't make to much sense, with that interpretation, was the end, where the OP is drained from the eye, and he just sort of falls back to the Eye of the World again. But I suppose that could be explained by just saying that Rand Traveled back (by instinct) and just didn't notice he fell through a doorway.

At this point he just did things without knowing what he was doing. So there are no weaves, or other detailed discriptions of what was happening.

I am not sure how developed TP vs OP usage was when the first book was written. In the prologue, Ishamael likely traveled with the TP, and LTT with OP Traveling, but no doorway was a mentioned.

Tamyrlin
06-02-2011, 12:09 PM
It seems clear from the lack of any real interaction on Rand's part other than partaking in it, that the Eye events of traveling (I would agree Skimming, but we know from seeing the cord that when he is able to see the cords it is likely taking place in TAR, so it was more complex than skimming) were in part controlled by the Wheel in the so called Pattern Level Event, which also occurs at the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael fight in the sky.

So, I guess the most direct answer to the question was, no, Rand did not Travel by his own means at the Eye, but Traveling was involved as it pertains to Skimming the Void and entering TAR.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 12:49 PM
I was under the impression that the cords could not be seen in TAR.
Also Lanfear uses the void, calls it the Oneness.
EDIT
I should say, it is strongly implied she uses it.

Tamyrlin
06-02-2011, 12:53 PM
I was under the impression that the cords could not be seen in TAR.

TAR, and other layers of the Unseen Worlds are where cords can be "seen". In fact, it would appear that the ability to see them in these places is a talent.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 02:01 PM
I knew that they could be seen in the skimming space, but I didn't think Rand saw them on Rahvin

Terez
06-02-2011, 03:19 PM
It seems clear from the lack of any real interaction on Rand's part other than partaking in it, that the Eye events of traveling (I would agree Skimming, but we know from seeing the cord that when he is able to see the cords it is likely taking place in TAR, so it was more complex than skimming) were in part controlled by the Wheel in the so called Pattern Level Event, which also occurs at the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael fight in the sky.
I disagree. It seems clear to me from the context of the conversation that Rand had with the VOICE, who said IT IS NOT HERE, that the VOICE decided that it should be SOMEWHERE ELSE and made a Skimming staircase for Rand. The lack of a gateway is consistent with what one would expect from True Power Skimming.

I dislike the whole PLE concept; you know that. I think you are too quick to use it for an explanation sometimes.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2011, 03:38 PM
But even taking that staircase out of it still leaves the question of how Rand got to Tarwin's Gap.
And how he got back after his fight with Ishamael, for that matter.

Tamyrlin
06-02-2011, 03:46 PM
I disagree. It seems clear to me from the context of the conversation that Rand had with the VOICE, who said IT IS NOT HERE, that the VOICE decided that it should be SOMEWHERE ELSE and made a Skimming staircase for Rand. The lack of a gateway is consistent with what one would expect from True Power Skimming.


Since many likely haven't read the question that led to the acronym/discussion of a Pattern Level Event:

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something done by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

I'm not discounting the possibility that the thing behind the Voice was involved. However, considering the control the Wheel has and it's ability to manipulate the Pattern, I don't consider the Wheel any less plausible than the DO/Creator/Other as an option for what enabled Rand to arrive at his first battle with Ishamael. In some significant way I think the Wheel was involved in that series of events. Did the Wheel create the staircase, or simply make it possible, I don't know, but it feels like something out of the norm enough for the Wheel to have been involved more directly.


I dislike the whole PLE concept; you know that. I think you are too quick to use it for an explanation sometimes.

I'm trying to think if I've ever proposed a PLE (seriously) regarding more than two events. I'm sure I have thrown it out as an option, but I can't remember more than these:

TEoTW - Rand traveling to his battle with Ishamael
TGS - Rand's reintegration (I think I proposed it regarding his access to memories of infinite lives)

Obviously, the Wheel is involved on smaller levels all of the time as Jordan stated.

Crispin's Crispian
06-02-2011, 04:45 PM
I think a better explanation is that the Eye of the World existed in some kind of pocket of Tel'aran'rhiod, as described by Eclipse in his chronicle (http://theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=eclipse&page=g).

The pocket is some kind of manifestation of the Dream World in the real world, which is why one can't find it without "need." It is the same "need" that Rand used to arrive at Tarwin's Gap, and the same "need" that we see people using from TDR onward when they Dream themselves there.

Eclipse sums it up nicely, even without any hard conclusions:

Rand battles Aginor, and sees the cord running from him to the Eye. Something he only sees IN TAR that we know of. After he kills Aginor (or Aginor over draws and kills himself), he “shifts” to Tarwin’s Gap. The only way to describe his movement is he used the TP (as RJ has said Tedronai did/does to Travel like he did in the very first scene), or he moved the same way those skilled in the Dream move, simply by thinking themselves somewhere. This gets funky. It seems TAR may have extended its effects to Tarwin's Gap... well, considering TAR is truly everywhere, is it hard to believe if one were standing in the Grove (and it is actually a piece of TAR in the real world), one could follow the rules of TAR everywhere that TAR extended?

I would suggest that Rand was somehow both in the Dream World and the real world, much as the Heroes of the Horn appear at Falme. This is why his actions seem to affect the battle, and why he climbs some magic steps to a room in the middle of the sky/nowhere. It also explains how Ba'alzamon is able to conjure the image of Rand's mother--Ba'alzamon is skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod.

It's interesting that Rand wakes up in the next chapter back at the Grove. Did he extend Tel'aran'rhiod because he was somehow asleep?

Tamyrlin
06-02-2011, 05:09 PM
I would suggest that Rand was somehow both in the Dream World and the real world, much as the Heroes of the Horn appear at Falme. This is why his actions seem to affect the battle, and why he climbs some magic steps to a room in the middle of the sky/nowhere. It also explains how Ba'alzamon is able to conjure the image of Rand's mother--Ba'alzamon is skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod.


The effects of the Horn without the Horn being blown, magic steps and appearing at the Battle, and affecting the battle with his actions...sounds like a PLE to me. :)

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 06:47 PM
Not to mention the voice indicated quite clearly and in all caps that he would take no part. Building magic stairs seems to require some kind of part.

Crispin's Crispian
06-02-2011, 06:49 PM
Not to mention the voice indicated quite clearly and in all caps that he would take no part. Building magic stairs seems to require some kind of part.

I thought Rand built the stairs. That's why he was able to remember it in TSR when chasing Asmodean. It's also possible Ba'alzamon did it.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 06:52 PM
I always thought pattern level events were a result of some kind of bridging between tar and the regular world. Even the boss's reintegration theory works, heroes remember their lives while in tar, less therein shut up. Kind of like using need to find out what is needed, then creating its reality.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 06:55 PM
@chrispian
I don't know who made it, I was saying the voice surely did not.

Terez
06-02-2011, 07:30 PM
I'm not discounting the possibility that the thing behind the Voice was involved. However, considering the control the Wheel has and it's ability to manipulate the Pattern, I don't consider the Wheel any less plausible than the DO/Creator/Other as an option for what enabled Rand to arrive at his first battle with Ishamael.
That's where you and I differ. I think it's a great deal less plausible because we only know of one instance of the Wheel taking control of anything, ever.

Not to mention the voice indicated quite clearly and in all caps that he would take no part. Building magic stairs seems to require some kind of part.
No one's going to take the Dark One's word to the letter, so I'm not sure what your point is. It's possible that Ishamael made the stairs himself - IMO that's the only other plausible explanation - but there's nothing to rule out the Dark One doing it himself. He was only saying that he wasn't going to confront Rand at that moment, despite Rand wanting to.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 07:56 PM
I always assumed that the voice was the Creator, stating RJ's position that the do will fight humanity and humanity alone. And so, any shenanigans were from some other source. But if you think it's the do...well, thought is free.

Terez
06-02-2011, 07:58 PM
I always assumed that the voice was the Creator
We know for sure that the Creator (unlike the Dark One) does not interfere, so it seems unlikely that he showed up just to tell...the Dark One?...that he's not going to take part, when he never takes part. Also, Rand asked for Shai'tan, not the Creator.

Rand al'Fain
06-02-2011, 08:26 PM
We know for sure that the Creator (unlike the Dark One) does not interfere, so it seems unlikely that he showed up just to tell...the Dark One?...that he's not going to take part, when he never takes part. Also, Rand asked for Shai'tan, not the Creator.
I thought the voice was talking to Rand, telling Rand that he could not interfere (I don't see talking as interfering BTW). But, we have not had Shai'tan's voice since (outside of Shayol Ghul), despite similar feats of the One Power, etc.

Terez
06-02-2011, 10:19 PM
I thought the voice was talking to Rand, telling Rand that he could not interfere (I don't see talking as interfering BTW).
He's obviously not talking to Rand if he's the Creator, or he would have said 'only you can blah blah' instead of 'only the chosen one'.

But, we have not had Shai'tan's voice since (outside of Shayol Ghul), despite similar feats of the One Power, etc.
And we have not heard the Creator's voice at all. And whether or not you think speaking qualifies as interfering, there is still no point in the Creator showing up out of nowhere just to let everyone know he's not going to interfere.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 10:33 PM
I'm still pretty sure it's the creator. Speaking of the dragon in third person isn't an unreasonable interpretation. And the actual info conveyed is bizarre if it came from the do.

Terez
06-02-2011, 10:42 PM
I'm still pretty sure it's the creator.
No one cares.

Speaking of the dragon in third person isn't an unreasonable interpretation.
It's a stretch, and furthermore, it's only necessary if you insist on believing it was the Creator.

And the actual info conveyed is bizarre if it came from the do.
In what way? Rand wanted to confront the Dark One; the Dark One knew it wasn't time for that yet. Pretty simple stuff. Rand said his display at Maradon came close to a confrontation between them; no doubt that's exactly what happened at Tarwin's Gap, with the exception that the Dark One has a lot more power now and probably wouldn't decline the opportunity.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 11:11 PM
I care. And who the hell do you think the do would have been talking to? Same third person "stretch" applies. Was he just musing aloud? And why would the do claim to take no part? You can say he was just lying, but only a moron would have believed the claim, and I cannot imagine why he would bother lying about that anyway.

Terez
06-02-2011, 11:17 PM
I care. And who the hell do you think the do would have been talking to? Same third person "stretch" applies. Was he just musing aloud?
He was talking to Rand.

And why would the do claim to take no part?
Because Rand challenged him.

The Unreasoner
06-02-2011, 11:33 PM
I still don't see how the third person thing is a stretch for the creator but not the do.

And I think the do would have said not yet instead of not here. And I will take no part seems an odd phrasing, awkward even, for a simple rejection to a challenge.

Also it seems he was inadvertently "challenging" ishamael, not the do. And the "must" is suspect. Seems a "might" would fit better if it were the do.

Terez
06-03-2011, 02:01 AM
I still don't see how the third person thing is a stretch for the creator but not the do.
Because the Dark One isn't talking about Rand when he says 'chosen one'.

And I think the do would have said not yet instead of not here. Why would the Creator say 'not here' if he's not going to play at all?

And I will take no part seems an odd phrasing, awkward even, for a simple rejection to a challenge.
I don't see how.

Also it seems he was inadvertently "challenging" ishamael, not the do.Rand doesn't even know the difference yet. But he addressed the Dark One either way.

And the "must" is suspect. Seems a "might" would fit better if it were the do.I don't see why.

The Unreasoner
06-03-2011, 02:24 AM
Okay. I think that the chosen one clearly means rand. Even after becoming Morridin elan didn't seem to immediately assume he was Nae'blis. But the do could have chosen him beforehand, so I will not press the point. I didn't realize your interpretation held ishamael in the chosen one role, so some of my comments may seem unusual. As for my thoughts on the "not here", since I don't know what "it" is, it is all speculation. But I assumed it was wherever the prison could be resealed, but I assume you take that as yet another red herring.

In any case, the prison is stronger at this point than any time after, the do has only been confirmed to speak at SG, and no part of the battle took place at thakan dar. And given the confirmed silence on this issue, I think it unlikely it is something as relatively common as the DO speaking.

Terez
06-03-2011, 02:52 AM
Okay. I think that the chosen one clearly means rand.
That's because you think the voice is the Creator. Circular logic which you then buttress with more stretching.

Even after becoming Morridin elan didn't seem to immediately assume he was Nae'blis. I wouldn't say that at all; he always believed he was. He just knew that the Dark One was capable of leading the others to believe that they could be chosen. Access to the True Power is always a good sign.

In any case, the prison is stronger at this point than any time afterThat doesn't mean it was strong enough to keep him from speaking to Rand, with Rand treading on his territory.

the do has only been confirmed to speak at SGAt least he has been confirmed to speak.

and no part of the battle took place at thakan dar.What battle?

And given the confirmed silence on this issue, I think it unlikely it is something as relatively common as the DO speaking.Now you're contradicting yourself. I think the silence is because it is going to otherwise come into play. Revealing that it is the Dark One gives too much insight for them to confirm it.

The Unreasoner
06-03-2011, 03:29 AM
Your reasoning is no less circular. In any case debate is pointless. I think the idea of the voice being the DO is silly, while you "know" you are right. At this point, lacking certainty on the true answer, you will cling to your idea, and I will to mine. Although you do seem to have based your position on some unusual notions, you likely will say the same of me.

Terez
06-03-2011, 01:41 PM
Your reasoning is no less circular.
An easy thing to say; a harder thing to demonstrate.

Southpaw2012
06-03-2011, 04:36 PM
I don't think the Dark One will ever take complete part against Rand. Even in AMOL. It's going to be the battle of the chosen ones in the final battle between Rand and Moridin while the Dark One is breaking free

Marie Curie 7
06-03-2011, 10:26 PM
Your reasoning is no less circular. In any case debate is pointless. I think the idea of the voice being the DO is silly, while you "know" you are right. At this point, lacking certainty on the true answer, you will cling to your idea, and I will to mine. Although you do seem to have based your position on some unusual notions, you likely will say the same of me.

If you had just scanned down the forums you would have found as the first entry in the archives a nice presentation of a theory posted previously by Terez about the voice at Tarwin's Gap (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4513), which has now been moved to the main board. It might be useful to read it.

And for Pete's sake, it's 'Moridin', not 'Morridin'.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2011, 04:09 AM
I don't think the Dark One will ever take complete part against Rand. Even in AMOL. It's going to be the battle of the chosen ones in the final battle between Rand and Moridin while the Dark One is breaking freeRand thinks otherwise, backed up by his knowledge from his past lives:
"It came too close to a confrontation between us," Rand said. "That must happen at Shayol Ghul, and at the right time. I cannot afford to let him provoke me. Bashere is right. Nor can I afford to let the men assume that I will always be able to step in and save them."He's talking about the DO here, not about Moridin.