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Toss the dice
06-10-2011, 04:08 AM
This is a pretty random question, I've been meaning to ask this for years now, but either forgot or never got around to it.

In Lord of Chaos Chapter 40, when Mat meets Thom once again in Salidar, he doesn't remember that he was a bard.

Quote:

"It seems to me that they want to hand their heads to Elaida." So Thom would have that silly wench on a horse, would he? A gleeman hauling the Daughter-Heir off to be crowned! He did have a grand sense of himself, Thom did."

and then later:

"...Help a gleeman keep them alive? A faint memory stirred, something about Basel Gill, an innkeeper in Caemlyn, saying something about Thom, but it was like mist, gone as soon as he tried to hold it."

Basically, in this scene, Mat seems to know Thom as a gleeman only. He may know that Thom has connections to Caemlyn for some random reason, but even that wouldn't make sense since he certainly can't remember Thom was a bard in the Andoran court, Morgase, etc.

---------------------------

This part in LoC has always baffled me. I realize the driving force behind Mat supposedly not remembering Thom's background is because of the dagger and his memories full of holes.

The problem I have with it is that Mat pretty much knows about Thom's past throughout the entire series, except for in the very beginning, and then randomly in this scene in LoC. As far as I know, the only period of time where Mat's memories have gotten full of holes and hazy was during the duration of the dagger. I know the two talk about Thom's background when Mat meets up with him in the inn in Tar Valon (TDR). Mat knows about Thom's past relationship with Morgase, that he was a bard, and even that Elaida would string him up if she ever found him again. I assume his knowledge continues through the Stone of Tear due to their time there together.

So what? Sometime between TSR in the Stone and LoC when they meet again in Salidar Mat has completely forgotten about Thom's past and knows him as only a gleeman again? He was under no influence from the dagger, and all of his memories post-dagger are completely intact, unless I'm missing something. It's like he just randomly forgot for no reason in the middle of the freakin series.

sandoz12
06-10-2011, 04:40 AM
Good catch. Most likely just an author error. In a series with this many words and characters for them to be there is unavoidable. I am actually constantly amazed at how few there are in the WoT.

Zombie Sammael
06-10-2011, 04:49 AM
Good catch. Most likely just an author error. In a series with this many words and characters for them to be there is unavoidable. I am actually constantly amazed at how few there are in the WoT.

That's actually a direct result of the Dark One's touch on the pattern.

Do I get a no-prize?

Khoram
06-14-2011, 08:54 PM
Mat couldn't remember that Thom had been a bard in the Royal Palace because of the taint on the Shadar Logoth dagger. Remember that this same dagger caused the holes in his memory, which were later filled by the 'Finn.

sandoz12
06-15-2011, 12:52 AM
Mat couldn't remember that Thom had been a bard in the Royal Palace because of the taint on the Shadar Logoth dagger. Remember that this same dagger caused the holes in his memory, which were later filled by the 'Finn.
Yes but he travelled to Tear with him after he had been healed from the dagger. Memories after that point should have been fine. I thought the wholes were only the period that came while he was carrying the dagger.

He certainly remembered saving the girls from the stone well enough.

Ishara
06-15-2011, 07:00 AM
But who could forget THAT?! LOL

GonzoTheGreat
06-15-2011, 08:33 AM
But who could forget THAT?! Egwene?

Khoram
06-15-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes but he travelled to Tear with him after he had been healed from the dagger. Memories after that point should have been fine. I thought the wholes were only the period that came while he was carrying the dagger.

He certainly remembered saving the girls from the stone well enough.

And yet, Thom had never mentioned it, so what reason would he have of bringing it up?

sandoz12
06-16-2011, 12:19 AM
And yet, Thom had never mentioned it, so what reason would he have of bringing it up?

I am sorry I don't get what you are getting at here. My belief is that once Mat was healed of the dagger his memory started working properly. During the trip to Tear with Thom, Thom told Mat that he was once a bard hence Mat should have remembered this when they met again in LOC.

Toss the dice
06-16-2011, 12:43 AM
And yet, Thom had never mentioned it, so what reason would he have of bringing it up?

Mat seemed to remember it somewhat when he met Thom in the inn in Tar Valon. At least that Thom had ties to Caemlyn, that Elaida hated him. I seem to remember Thom even mentioning Morgase to the serving women when he was feeling sorry for himself.

If that isn't enough for you, the nail in the coffin is later on when they DO reach Caemlyn. All of Thom's past in Caemlyn is talked about in Basel Gill's inn. At this point Mat knows that Thom was a bard, that he had loved Morgase, the whole works. No tie to the dagger, no new memories with holes from (before) here on out.

And yet, Mat clearly thought of Thom as a mere gleeman rather than a former bard, etc when he met him once again in Salidar.

Now, I could see this as a simple thing of Mat simply referring to Thom's present station as a gleeman. But that possibility is shattered when he blatantly has the pov of seeming to remember Basel Gill saying something about Thom. Which would work out perfectly if Mat was meeting Thom for the FIRST time after they got separated in Whitebridge and nothing about Thom's past was revealed after Mat was Healed! As in, Mat never met Thom in Tar Valon, they never traveled to Caemlyn, and never traveled to Tear. Again, it would have worked perfectly since Basel Gill had told Rand and Mat about Thom in TEotW when Mat was under the influence of the dagger.

Unless I see something about this in one of RJ's quotes or someone has one hell of a good explanation, I have no choice but to chalk this up as an error.

GonzoTheGreat
06-16-2011, 03:34 AM
It could also be that Mat considers "former bard" to be not the same as "bard". Just as "former millionair" does not mean that you still have the same credit rating you had when you actually still were a "millionair".

Toss the dice
06-16-2011, 09:14 AM
It could also be that Mat considers "former bard" to be not the same as "bard". Just as "former millionair" does not mean that you still have the same credit rating you had when you actually still were a "millionair".

You basically just rehashed one of my paragraphs in my last post. That it would be different if one could chalk it up to the possibility that Mat is referring to Thom's current station. Unfortunately that isn't the case, due to the Basel Gill pov quote I've already mentioned.

The whole point to this thread is that Mat has 100% guaranteed forgotten that Thom was once more than a mere gleeman. That is a fact. Mat thinking to himself "something that Basel Gill once said" makes that undeniable.

I find it hard to believe that no one has ever discussed this topic in here before. Every time I've re-read LoC it has hit me like a brick. I'm assuming it has been talked about multiple times, with an answer given. Does anyone know?

David Selig
06-16-2011, 09:24 AM
Seems like a mistake. Especially given that later on ACOS and WH Mat refers multiple times to Thom being a former lover of a Queen and an expert player of the Game of Houses.

GonzoTheGreat
06-16-2011, 09:43 AM
Having looked at TDR, I found no actual evidence suggesting that Basel Gill had said within Mat's hearing that Thom ever was a Bard.

Checking TEOTW did turn up the following:
Thom Merrilin," the gleeman said. They stared. "My name is Thom Merrilin, not Master Gleeman." He hitched the multihued cloak up on his shoulders, and abruptly his voice once more seemed to reverberate in a great hall. "Once a Court bard, I am now indeed risen to the exalted rank of Master Gleeman, yet my name is plain Thom Merrilin, and gleeman is the simple title in which I glory." And he swept a bow so elaborate with flourishes of his cloak that Mat clapped and Egwene murmured appreciatively.
"Master ... ah ... Master Merrilin," Mat said, unsure exactly what form of address to take out of what Thom Merrilin had said, "what is happening in Ghealdan? Do you know anything about this false Dragon? Or the Aes Sedai?"So it is possible that Mat is misattributing a vague memory from before he left Emond's Field.

Toss the dice
06-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the quote Gonzo, I completely forgot Thom mentioned that, however briefly, in TEotW.

Check TDR again. The first spot is in the Tar Valon inn scene when Mat meets up with Thom. The second, and the big one, is Mat, Thom and Basel Gill talking in Basel's inn in Caemlyn. Remember, there are multiple scenes at the inn over the course of Mat's attempts to deliver the letter to Morgase.

Even if none of those instances specifically have Mat hearing that Thom was a bard, it doesn't really matter. He does specifically hear that Thom was Moiraine's lover, that Elaida would string Thom up, and that he's from Caemlyn. Let's say Mat knows all of the major things about Thom's past EXCEPT that he was a bard. It seems impossible to me that Mat wouldn't simply know that as well as all the rest, and if nothing else, could guess. And that's just from what we have on-screen. Do you seriously think there is any shred of a chance by the time they part ways in TSR that Mat doesn't know that Thom was a bard, in addition to the other 90% of the same concurrent background info about Thom he DOES know for sure?

Even if you want to get fully literal on the specifics of what Mat has and hasn't been told on-screen, the sheer odds of him not knowing or not knowing and not bothering to ask are outrageously low. What do you think Mat thought Thom's profession was when he was canoodling with Morgase all those years in Caemlyn? A gleeman to a Queen? A housekeeper? Some random dude who just walked in off the street and swept the woman off her feet?

GonzoTheGreat
06-17-2011, 03:34 AM
Some random dude who just walked in off the street and swept the woman off her feet?It worked for Gaebril, didn't it?

David Selig
06-17-2011, 12:16 PM
It worked for Rand too, on Morgase's daughter. ;)

Toss the dice
06-17-2011, 01:04 PM
No wonder Elayne was always taking in stray animals as a girl. As a female Trakand, it was mandatory training for when she got older and could start taking in stray men.