View Full Version : Agni Neres: Riverserpent returns? Creator's messenger?

06-10-2011, 09:11 PM
Has anyone wondered what ever happened to Agni Neres, and his craft the Riverserpent?

I have wondered if some type of "change-up will be thrown" by RJ & Brandon...

As in Agni Neres (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/agni_neres.html)' living up to his first (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agni) name?

I highly doubt the Wheel is done with Agni and his smuggling ship, the Riverserpent.

Valan Luca circus needs ships (KoD); Agni can provide one.

Agni Neres very likely fled Seanchan Empire controlled lands & rivers for a richer opportunity to trade between Tear to Tar Valon. "Pull" factor. Remember someone had to be paid very well to re-supply Tar Valon, during the "Siege" of the island.

On the "push" side, the Seanchan are known for cracking down on smuggling. Agni Neres' preferred line of work, simply would not operate very well, between Ebou Dar to Amadicia to Ghealdan since the Seanchan Empire invaded.


Two 'Character Parallels' hints for Agni:

Agni = Hindu deity, God of Fire, Acceptor of Sacrifices, a Messenger between the Gods, Vehicle is "Ram". Agni's father (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/karttikeya.html) is/was a "Misogynist" (which parallels Agni Neres' "Misogyny" in WoT books, from Nynaeve al'Meara point of view.)

Agni = Literary magazine (http://www.bu.edu/agni/history.html)

we see literature and the arts as part of a broad, ongoing cultural conversation that every society needs to remain vibrant and alive. What we print requires concentration and takes some time to digest, but it’s worth that time and effort: writers and artists hold a mirror up to nature, mankind, the world; they courageously reflect their age, for better or worse; and their best works provoke perceptions and thoughts that help us understand and respond to our age.


What has Agni Neres' sacrificed in WoT series?

His ship's cargo, to save a large group of Ghealdan refugees.

How was Agni re-paid? By whom?

A Necklace inset with Yellow Opals. Given by Elayne, to Agni to his utter shock. Neres even LOOKED directly at Elayne--highly unusual, considering Neres well known dislike of women.

Necklaces, Medallions

Necklace and Medallions are a Symbols of Leadership or Office, whether among the Westlanders or the Aiel Clans. For examples, see Bran al'Vere's or Mat Cauthon or Wise One necklaces include the Shaido's Someryn (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/s/someryn.html).

In essence Elayne, has GIVEN Agni Neres a symbol of Office, of Leadership; when she perhaps unknowing bestowed a Golden Necklace set with Yellow Opals--because it was 'gaudy'.

The Crown of Cairhien most likely includes Yellow Opals.

Colavaere had donned a necklace and bracelets of emeralds and firedrops, and rings with pearls and rubies, surely her best pieces, and yellow diamonds had been arranged in her hair, a fair imitation of the crown of Cairhien.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 19 "Diamonds and Stars" -- Rand point of view, with Min.

A Gem of Royalty

Opals (Yellow) seem to be a gem directly associated with Royalty, whether in Saldaea (Faile pov), Cairhien (Rand pov), Tarabon (Amathera's gifts to Elayne, Nynaeve), and Amadicia (likely source for Someryn's Opals from a High Noble). Even Nynaeve al'Meara braid pin is inset with Yellow Opals--a Malkier Queen.

Uniquely, only two characters have worn White Opals, both of whom are strong independent women:

Someryn, Wise One, Shaido Aiel, a rebel, and:

"Therava and Someryn were stronger than any woman in the Tower, and any of them could have been Aes Sedai easily.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 11 "Questions and an Oath" -- Galina point of view, of Therava and Someryn.

Lelaine, Blue Ajah, Aes Sedai, a rebel

On her right hand Someryn wore a large white opal that flashed caverns of red whenever she adjusted her shawl, and a long blue sapphire surrounded by rubies on the left.

CoT, Chapter 9 "Traps" - Faile point of view, with Wise One Someryn

For once, Egwene was glad of all the gifts of clothing she had been given, allowing her to surpass the Sitters. Her green-and-blue silk was slashed with white and worked with seed pearls. Pearls even decorated the backs of her gloves. At the last minute a cloak lined with ermine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermine_(heraldry)) had been provided by Romanda, and a necklace and earrings of emeralds and white opals by Lelaine. The moonstones in her hair came from Janya. The Amyrlin had to be resplendent today.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 17 "Out on the Ice" -- Egwene point of view.

Opals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opal) allow an individual to make a displayed claim of greater status of Office, than a normal mortal possesses--in the Wheel of Time series.

Agni Neres is one of the few who possesses a rarified status. Heron is a symbol of Blademaster, meanwhile a Necklace with Opals inset, is a symbol of royal leadership. God-like.

Edit Addition

Who once regretted giving away his bedecked gems?

Rand al'Thor, who once willing gave up his image-like 'Kingly' status to Aviendha:

The gilded Dragon buckle of his sword belt caught the light, and so did the thread-of-gold embroidery that covered his blue silk coat. For a moment, he regretted giving away the gems that once had decked his sword’s hilt and scabbard. The dark boarhide was serviceable, but any armsman could have worn that. Let men know who he was.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 22 "Gathering Clouding" -- Rand point of view

Who received those gems?

Aviendha. (Yes, it matters... in terms of story metaphors still.)


Symbolically speaking the "Ram" is an important abstract symbol in WoT series. 'A Constellation' no less, which Mat Cauthon once refers to in his thoughts:

Tossing his blanket down among the scrub, he lay on his back. When he was a boy, he’d sometimes used to put himself to sleep naming the constellations. In that cloudless sky, the moon gave enough light to wash out most stars even if it was waning, but it left enough. There was the Haywain, high overhead, and the Five Sisters, and the Three Geese pointing the way north. The Archer, the Plowman, the Blacksmith, the Snake. Aiel called that one the Dragon. The Shield, that some called Hawkwing’s Shield—that made him shift; in some of his memories he did not like Artur Paendrag Tanreall at all—the Stag, and the Ram. The Cup, and the Traveler with her staff standing out sharp.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 22 "Heading South" -- Mat Cauthon point of view.

WoT Characters, Animals and Stars associated with a Symbol of a "Ram" include:

Goats (who's parallel imaginary similar to Perrin's look actually)
Logain (see CoT, Chapter 24 - Min pov.)
Agni Neres
Ajimbura, quote ==> "ram’s-horn-patterned silver base sat beside the cup". Ajimbura is a servant of Karede, a Deathwatch Guard General. (See CoT, Chapter 4 - Karade pov)
Ram, Constellation or Star. (See, Lord of Chaos, Chapter 22 - Mat pov)

Zombie Sammael
06-11-2011, 05:47 AM
So are you suggest Agni Neres will be the new king of Cairhien?

06-11-2011, 11:53 AM
So are you suggest Agni Neres will be the new king of Cairhien?

Chuckles, no, no.

He's more important than a typical 'True World' King. Agni is an immortal soul. He is a kin to, one of those other special few difference makers, including:

the Five Sisters
the Three Geese
The Archer
the Plowman
the Blacksmith
the Snake or Dragon (Westlander & Aiel names).
The Shield or Hawkwing’s Shield
the Stag
the Ram
The Cup
the Traveler

Each abstract name or object represents an individual or group of individuals, in WoT series. All are major characters.

As in, the Traveler is Moiraine Sedai; the Blacksmith is Perrin; the Shield is Mat Cauthon; the Stag is Gawyn; the Archer is Birgitte; the Haywain is Tinker Wagon(s) (Haywain is a type of hay wagon; a famous painting)....

Agni Neres is literally one of the Constellations in the Night's Sky above. Constellations or Stars are living souls, in the universe found in the Wheel of Time series.(See Moghedien's comments)

Remember the Old Blood?

Agni Neres, similar to Mat Cauthon, in that each is of the Old Blood. Like Valan Luca previously, Agni Neres gives voice to who Birgitte truly is:

Birgitte resumed her own name later that same day, though it was a last flare of temper that did it. With Moghedien safely behind them, she and Elayne washed the black out of their hair with pokeleaf, and Neres seeing one with red-gold curls about her shoulders and the other yellow-gold in an intricate braid, and that one with bow and quiver, muttered acridly about “Birgitte stepping out of the bloody stories.”

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 49 "To Boannda" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Birgitte, Elayne, Agni Neres and others

Who did Agni Neres treat Elayne similar to? How?

A Seanchan Empress, Fortuona, as if Agni Neres is a commoner avoiding to look at his better's--for a time at least.

And she certainly had no intention of arguing with a man who still would neither look at her nor talk to her.

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 49 "To Boannda" -- Elayne point of view; with Birgitte, Nynaeve, Agni Neres and others

Even Nynaeve receives a similar treat:

“Salidar!” he growled, staring over Nynaeve’s head.

Ironically enough, Agni Neres was a wise man... it was indeed foolish for Nynaeve & Elayne to walk unknowingly into a place full of Black Ajah.

As Nynaeve al'Meara later acknowledges to herself--Agni Neres was correct:

Some four hours later, the sweat running down Nynaeve’s face had very little to do with unseasonable heat, and she was wondering whether it might not have been better if Neres had gulled them. Or refused to carry them beyond Boannda.

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 50 "To Teach, and Learn" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, her thoughts.

An Observation: Agni Neres is now an equal of immortal Queens.

Recollect Agni Neres only LOOKED into Elayne eyes, AFTER he received the 'Necklace' inset with Yellow Opals. Elayne gift or payment raised Agni's status, that's one reason he is SO SHOCKED.

“Besides, yellow opals are gaudy, especially in that setting Anyway, it was worth it, just to see his face.” Elayne giggled abruptly. “He looked at me this time.” Nynaeve tried not to, but she could not help giggling too.

The Fires of Heaven Chapter 49 "To Boannda" -- Elayne point of view; with Birgitte, Nynaeve, Agni Neres and others

By contrast, Elayne treated Galad's Whitecloaks, Children of the Light as inferiors, by her manner:

All very well for Elayne to march along with her chin raised, ignoring the Whitecloaks as though they were servants, but Nynaeve did not like being taken for granted.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 48 "Leavetakings" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, with Elayne.

Elayne's behavior would make Fortuona proud....

What is Agni's role?

Agni is a messenger for those who create or dream of worlds. In essence, a go between, a match-maker.

Who brought or called Agni to Ghealdan in the first place?

Moghedien--the Spider. Only after Nynaeve al'Meara requested for a "ship" to head south to Tear to meet the 'Lord Dragon', via Moghedien's pawn Masema in Samara.

She did not say a word as they retraced their steps through the kitchen, where the gray-haired woman was sucking her teeth and stirring the soup as if she had not moved in the interval.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 39 "Encounters in Samara" -- Nynaeve point of view, with Masema, Ragan, Uno, Queen Alliandre, Moghedien

The gray-haired woman is Moghedien.

The Riverserpent perhaps does not 'only' transport creator(s), yet Agni has transported more than one of them.

Who has Agni Neres carried on the Riverserpent? Previously? And in the future?

Nynaeve al'Meara
Juilin, Thom.

Elayne. A Dreamer
Nynaeve. A Dreamer
Moghedien. A Dreamer (most likely, but unconfirmed irc) -- Spider is associated with Creation.
Birgitte. Knows much more than most individuals, of the TAR.

Not Juilin, but Juilin's love interest Amathera has been taught how the TAR operates--by one member of the Black Ajah in Tanchico.

Not Thom, but who Thom is associated most strongly with, a Min's foretelling, is a Dreamer. 'Legs on snakes', in Aiel terminology.

The strongest images around the gleeman are a man—not him—juggling fire, and the White Tower, and that doesn’t make any sense at all for a man.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 15 "Strangers and Friends" -- Rand point of view, with Min speaking

Who is that man?

Valan Luca.

Who is one of Agni Neres next likely refugee customers?

Valan Luca. And his show-folk traveling menagerie.

Who juggles and eats fire?

A Master Bard.

How is known Valan Luca is a Bard?

An late arrival to Fal Dara, according to Lord Agelmar:

“Mother, it shames me that you come one day and leave the next. I swear to you, there will be no repetition of last night. I have tripled the guard on the city gates as well as the keep. I have tumblers in from the town, and a bard coming from Mos Shirare. Why, King Easar will be on his way from Fal Moran. I sent word as soon as . . . ”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Rand point of view, with Lord Agelmar speaking to Siuan and others.

Valan Luca tells Nynaeve during one unsuccessful a courting session:

“That gown will frame your unfolding bravery to perfection,” he murmured in her ear, “yet not a quarter so well as you display yourself, for night-blooming dara lilies would weep with envy to see you stroll beside the moonlit water, as I would do, and make myself a bard to sing your praises by this very moon.”

She blinked at him, working that out. Luca seemed to believe she was fluttering her lashes; she accidentally hit him in the ribs with her elbow before he could nibble her ear. At least that seemed to be his intention, even if he was coughing now and claiming he had swallowed a cake crumb the wrong way. The man was certainly handsome—Stop that!—and he did have a shapely calf—What are you doing, looking at his legs?—but he must think her a brainless ninny. It was all in aid of his bloody show.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 34 "A Silver Arrow" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, Valan speaking.

It's tough for polar opposites to have a meeting of the minds, when one wants to speak in High Chant while the other wants to speak in Common Chant--directly and bluntly.

Valan Luca is a Bard; Nynaeve al'Meara re-born soul, once was the 'Soldier Queen' Kirukan.

Why did I mention Creators in association with Agni Neres characters?

Saidin, Saidar does not drive nor turn the Wheel of Time. Regardless what Lews Therin believes. A Dream drives the Wheel of Time.

This is one reason why the White Tower's Dreaming ter'angreal were missing for hundreds years--a myth, so to speak. To Dream is to be enabled to fight, the Dark One.

Nynaeve, Elayne, Valan Luca, Moghedien are each major characters who are tied to re-claiming, re-creating what is soon to be lost. Individual(s) can create a new reality, by Dreaming.

Agni Neres is a common link between characters, who have narrative focus on Dreaming and Creation.

“All things change,” Gaul said dismissively. “Until we wake, the dream drifts on the wind.”

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 10 "Changes" -- Perrin point of view, with Gaul speaking and others in the scene.

“We all wake from the dream one day,” Gaul said gently, “but if she still dreams, we will find her.

Crossroading of Twilight, Chapter 2 "Taken" -- Perrin point of view, with Gaul speaking


Separately, a "Flood" has been repeatedly hinted at for ages... Agni Neres ship the Riverserpent might be of some aid, when that time comes.



#1 Nor does Lews Therin's dream drive the Wheel:

Sudden sweat made tracks down Lews Therin’s face through the dust and dirt. He remembered, a cloudy memory like a dream of a dream, but he knew it true.

Rand al'Thor whom is the re-born soul of Lews Therin is, not the one to save Creation or Dream.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late.

—From a fragmentary translation of
The Prophecies of the Dragon,
attributed to Lord Mangore Kiramin,
Sword-bard of Aramaelle and Warder to
Caraighan Maconar,
into what was then called the vulgar tongue
(circa 300 AB).


#2 Collusion of Worlds: True World; Dream Word (TAR)

Progressively, since the very beginning of the World of Time series, what readers have seen aspects of--is "a slow merger of Worlds".

From 'Bubbles of Evil' to Mat Cauthon's merry journey into Hinderstap (TGS) to Sharan cockroaches in Romanda's tent at one point--someone dreamed of it, then it occurred.

One particular category of World is untouched by the Dark One's dream of death--a Mirror World.


#3 Chaos follows Valan Luca's journey

Literally every single place or nation Valan Luca visits, destruction, chaos and change soon follows.


#4 'The First', 'The Second' of Mayene's historical past was referring to Plural Marriage.

The first wife, was called 'The First'; the second wife, was called 'The Second'. In other words, Plural Marriage was common for leaders during the Artur Hawkwing era. Some of whom later settled in Mayene, after a failed attempt to invade 'The lands beyond' in Shara.

One particular Queen of Shiota, displayed a similar custom, of Plural Marriage, by way of a "Crown of Upthrusting Daggers"

A beringed hand nearly big as his chest, gripping a sword hilt with a broken stub of blade wider than his hand. A great head, a woman with cracks across her face and a crown that seemed to be made of upthrusting daggers, some still whole.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 22 "Gathering Clouds" -- Rand point of view, with Bashere in Altara or Illian

Each Dagger represents a partner, a husband or spouse.

A 'Marriage Knife' or 'Marriage Dagger', is a continuation of a Shiota custom for common women viewing a 'Marriage Dagger', as a symbol of marriage.

Plural Marriage as a family unit, though did survive in parts of Murandy. Parts of one time Shiota, now in Murandy in particular currently. Elaida SHOULD absolutely know of this Plural Marriage custom, in Murandy.

In other words, Rand has just seen a Shiota Queen's statue, who REALLY married a LOT of individuals.

Horny Queen bees...

And who were Queen of Shiota six (http://newauthors.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/the-path-of-daggers1.jpg) partners? Recall Ages repeat....

06-13-2011, 06:21 PM
No one's going to read this mess.

Crispin's Crispian
06-13-2011, 06:34 PM
Here's what I think:

The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
Yeah, it's closer to the Heart

Philosophers and Ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the Heart
Yeah, it's closer to the Heart

It's clear to me that yellow opals are a sign of Canadian royalty. Agni Neres will found a family of musicians that will go on to become the first Royal Canadians.

It's not a ram so much as a moose.

The Unreasoner
06-14-2011, 12:37 AM
I'm just curious...do you actually believe all of these theories? And what exactly are you saying about neres, is he like a bombadil?

06-14-2011, 02:49 AM
Great read! I could, for once, actually follow your train of thought on this one Felix. Fantastic theorizing. Semi-lunatic of course, but still makes a great read. Plausible? No. Interesting? Hell yea! I almost wish Brandon would read this and twine this into the AMoL, but I'm afraid the final book will be packed as it is.


06-15-2011, 10:01 AM
I'm just curious...do you actually believe all of these theories?

I doubt he does. He's Theoryland's premier WUM as far as I can tell.

07-22-2011, 03:59 PM
I'm just curious...do you actually believe all of these theories?

Yes, I support each of the above Hypotheses & Theories.

And what exactly are you saying about neres, is he like a bombadil?

Neres is/was tied to the Wheel, akin to a Hero of the Horn.
Neres' soul is immortal.
Neres soul or essence is literally connected to a 'Star' in the Sky. Moghedien called that place, 'Worlds in the Sky' (TSR, Ch.54).

Neres' character has a further role to play in the Wheel of Time.