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FelixPax
06-12-2011, 06:06 PM
Early in the Wheel of Time series Siuan asks Moiraine a simply question, who is the Dragon?

At times, I feel as Siuan character does... is Rand al'Thor truly the Dragon?


“Yes, Moiraine. You do not have to remind me. I’ve lived with the Prophecies of the Dragon as long as you.” The Amyrlin shook her head. “Never more than one false Dragon in a generation since the Breaking, and now three loose in the world at one time, and three more in the past two years. The Pattern demands a Dragon because the Pattern weaves toward Tarmon Gai’don. Sometimes doubt fills me, Moiraine.” She said it musingly, as if wondering at it, and went on in the same tone. “What if Logain was the one? He could channel, before the Reds brought him to the White Tower, and we gentled him. So can Mazrim Taim, the man in Saldaea. What if it is him? There are sisters in Saldaea already; he may be taken by now. What if we have been wrong since the start? What happens if the Dragon Reborn is gentled before the Last Battle even begins? Even prophecy can fail if the one prophesied is slain or gentled. And then we face the Dark One naked to the storm.”

“Neither of them is the one, Siuan. The Pattern does not demand a Dragon, but the one true Dragon. Until he proclaims himself, the Pattern will continue to throw up false Dragons, but after that there will be no others. If Logain or the other were the one, there would be no others.”


The Great Hunt, Moiraine point of view, with Siuan behind a Saidar Ward


Questions


If Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon, why is Taim able to remain a 'False Dragon' in the Black Tower still?

Bluntly, Moiraine claims that Taim should not be able to become a false Dragon, after 'he proclaims himself'. Well, Rand has proclaimed himself... yet Taim still is acting like a 'False Dragon'--with his fashion style and all. See CoT, KoD books among others for scenes.

Has Moiraine, Siuan and Moridin all been had? Rand isn't the Dragon?


Why is it assumed the Dragon is a male channeler?



How did the Dragon coming, 'tear (torn) apart the world'?



Wool-Buyer Guard's tale



“What kind of need would be great enough that we’d want the Dragon to save us from it? ” Rand mused. “As well ask for help from the Dark One .”

“He didn’t say,” Mat replied uncomfortably. “And he didn’t mention any new Age of Legends. He said the world would be torn apart by the Dragon’s coming. ”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 3 "The Peddler" -- Rand point of view, with Perrin, Mat Cauthon


Early into the story, Rand had not even visited Ghealdan nor Saldaea nor Tear nor Illian yet--however they all were already or beginning to be torn apart. Even Shara too.


Does the Dragon physically need to have visited each place at least once previously for it to be torn apart?


If that answer is yes, then the number of candidates available to be the 'true' Dragon sinks quickly to perhaps one.



Have prophecies muddied categories of characters, and what each individual is suppose to do? Let alone each's identity?


My answer, to the last two questions, is yes and yes.

Enigma
06-12-2011, 06:48 PM
I think that Siuan's statement was more to show her own growing uncertainty of what to do to prepare the world for the Last Battle. Until Moiraine filled her in on what had just happened Siuan must have wondered when sending sisters to deal with the various false dragaons what if they got it wrong and attacked the real dragon reborn?

Once she had her briefing from Moiraine her certaintly that Rand was the real deal never wavered just what needed to be done with him.

As far as there being no more false dragon's after Rand proclaimed himself, that was when Taim was defeated by the visions in the sky. It does not mean that all false dragons will drop dead and never be heard from again. Taim is acting as leader of the Black Tower not as a false dragon. He is not going out to raise armies and conquor nations.

Lastly I don't think that the dragon breaking the world means he will physically destroy it but that rather due to his existance there were will be events that shatter the social order, throw the world into chaos etc. He does not have to be physically in a place to effect it and it may not even be his fault exactly. The pattern does seem to be moving a lot of young tallent into positions of power for the last battle and that means that the existing status quo is being challenged. Add this to the DO's plan to wrap the world in chaos and no wonder places are seen to be 'breaking'

The Unreasoner
06-12-2011, 10:20 PM
You know, I only started reading the books after the first was split, and in the two years between from the two rivers and to the blight I thought Logain was the dragon

skaywalker
06-13-2011, 03:18 AM
So, Mat isn't the true Dragon reborn and car'a'carn? Hmmmm.... I wonder who has been physically in Ghealdan by the time Fain visits the Two Rivers. Wait, I know the answer.

VALAN LUCA is the TRUE Dragon reborn!!!

Crispin's Crispian
06-13-2011, 03:47 PM
If Rand al'Thor is the true Dragon, why is Taim able to remain a 'False Dragon' in the Black Tower still?

He is not a false dragon. He can dress up with dragons all he wants, but no one in the world thinks Taim is the Dragon Reborn anymore, and Taim doesn't claim that he is. Thus, he is not, and your question is irrelevant.

Why is it assumed the Dragon is a male channeler?
IMO, it's because Lews Therin Telamon was the Dragon, and he was a male channeler. But, you know...take that with a grain of salt. Not so much an assumption as an acknowledgement of history.

How did the Dragon coming, 'tear (torn) apart the world'?
Ask the Aiel, or the Cairhienin, or the Altarans, or the Seanchan. For that matter, ask the White Tower, the Two Rivers, the Whitecloaks, and the Amayar. Oh wait, the Amayar are all dead now.

Does the Dragon physically need to have visited each place at least once previously for it to be torn apart?
Why would he? Furthermore, Seanchan is completely torn asunder, and no one has been there except the Forsaken. Are you suggesting Semirhage was the Dragon Reborn? Or is it Tuon?

Tree Brother
06-13-2011, 04:31 PM
What books are you reading?

LTT is the Dragon.
Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

If you are trying to argue that Rand and LTT do not have the same Soul... good luck with that.

bluejam
06-13-2011, 06:24 PM
What books are you reading?

LTT is the Dragon.
Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

If you are trying to argue that Rand and LTT do not have the same Soul... good luck with that.

He realizes his gimmick is running dry, so he's going full out to get as many replies from the few gullibles as he can.

Crispin's Crispian
06-13-2011, 06:26 PM
He realizes his gimmick is running dry, so he's going full out to get as many replies from the few gullibles as he can.

Oh c'mon now. It's fun!

2ply4what?!
06-13-2011, 07:25 PM
But what if he isnt, it will be the greatest plot twist in the history of novels as we know it.

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm, wearer of a crown of swords, spinner-out of fate. Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time, may learn the truth too late." This could strongly support that Rand is in Fact not the dragon reborn.

I'm supporting an alternate theory that Padan Fain is in fact the dragon reborn.

Its accepted that the prophecies are answered in an oblique manner and that our expectations are answered in ways that are unexpected. Take for example the prophecy much mused on by Rand about the dragons blood on the rocks of shayol ghul, which character do we know who has been to shayol ghul and had blood spilt? Padan Fain.

"Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife, and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken.
Padan fain is the power of the shadow in human flesh, he is now much more and much worse than a human. He chains shadowsworn to him many times and he was reborn in what city lost and forsaken? Shadar Logoth. He is continually marked and bleeding by his dagger.

"and the three shall be one." Padan Fain has already become one person from three, padan fain the darkfriend, padan fain the hound of the dark one and ordieth.

Padan Fain is last seen heading towards Shayol looking for revenge on the dark one, what better way to get revenge than to be the one to seal the world from the dark one.

Bix
06-13-2011, 08:22 PM
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1

The Unreasoner
06-14-2011, 12:39 AM
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 1

?

Rand al'Fain
06-14-2011, 01:17 AM
?

Possible multi.

looqas
06-14-2011, 02:30 AM
Felix, Felix... *shakes head*

I sincerely hope you did not post from 2 accounts.

I enjoy reading your weird theories, because they are quite far fetched but still have a grounding in the series. Like really twisted shadow theoryland things. They do not need a 'second voice'.

I think that Rand = Dragon. But having your alternate reality there it's fun to read nonetheless.

GonzoTheGreat
06-14-2011, 05:00 AM
Why would he? Furthermore, Seanchan is completely torn asunder, and no one has been there except the Forsaken. Are you suggesting Semirhage was the Dragon Reborn? Or is it Tuon?Rand was there on his first date with Aviendha.
Of course, Mat may have been there too, in the book in which he did not make an appearance.

Crispin's Crispian
06-14-2011, 01:52 PM
Rand was there on his first date with Aviendha.
Of course, Mat may have been there too, in the book in which he did not make an appearance.

Spoilsport.

GonzoTheGreat
06-15-2011, 04:13 AM
Spoilsport.Hey, I had to defend my "Mat is the DR" theory, hadn't I?

FelixPax
06-19-2011, 05:32 AM
Hey, I had to defend my "Mat is the DR" theory, hadn't I?

Chuckles, you've reached a post-Rand DR process of belief. Far better than average. Means your open to new ideas, and a fresh look at evidence. ;)


As far as I can tell, most individuals patterns of belief about who 'the Dragon' is, goes like this:



1st -- Rand is the Dragon
2nd -- Matrim Cauthon is the Dragon
3rd -- Who the hell knows? It's a mystery. It just does not add up.
4th -- Valan Luca is the Dragon.



Can't say I've heard of many readers if any WoT readers, on any forum, claim that 'the former creature known Padan Fain Mordeth' is the Dragon.

t.f.c.k.P.F.M. lacks a soul, a tie to the Constellations or Stars, unlike every other prime candidate claimed to 'the Dragon'.

Recollect, 'the Dragon' is a force on the side of the Light, not the Shadow or Blacker than Black (e.g Aridhol).

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Is English your first language? I don't know, just some little oddities. Italic if then any should be if italic any. The creature formerly known as padan fain.

Also I think it will take more than one post disagreeing with the padan fain is the dragon one to convince us you aren't posting from two accounts.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2011, 04:55 PM
From reading all of the threads currently active on the board, I am now convinced that Egwene is the Dragon Reborn. :D

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 05:46 PM
Definitely possible. People are often talking of her, she inspires many people, and is hated by many she was born to save. Not to mention cities going nuts when she visits. (tanchico)

Rand al'Fain
06-19-2011, 06:25 PM
Definitely possible. People are often talking of her, she inspires many people, and is hated by many she was born to save. Not to mention cities going nuts when she visits. (tanchico)
I thought Eggy only went there in a dream, if that? Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom, and Juilin all went, but Eggy was in the Aiel Waste at the time.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 06:41 PM
You are absolutely right on that. I just typed that last sentence because it fit in with the thread theme. I added tanchico as an afterthought and didn't bother to correct it when I realized later. Joke reply to a joke post regarding a joke theory. Somehow I didn't feel too compelled to maintain factual accuracy.

FelixPax
06-19-2011, 07:55 PM
From reading all of the threads currently active on the board, I am now convinced that Egwene is the Dragon Reborn. :D

"Zombie Sammael", anything to add about your prior attack upon a group of Tuatha'an? ;)


See Lord of Chaos, Chapter 22 "Heading South" (Mat pov) for the aftereffects of that attack upon Tuatha'an, if you've forgotten already scene. Gotcha remember your a 'zombie'....


Why bring up this old attack upon a group of Tuatha'an now?


Ties to Valan Luca past doing, in Illian, where Lord Brend (Sammael) sent off 'The Great Hunt' for the Horn of Valere.

Valan has claimed he left before the send off and blessing was given (Nynaeve pov with Elayne, Birgitte). If Luca did not leave Illian early, he'd most likely have become a dead man with his then one time traveling partner.


Luca's a changed man after his Illian experience. He no longer chooses to travel with nor stays with Tuatha'an since that point in time. Though he does later meet and has an disagreement with group Tuatha'an at Stedding Tsofu--with Raen, Ila, Aram's group--which Erith mentions.


What is one reason Luca left to leave Illian early?


To search out Tree Songs from the two known Ogier Treesingers at Stedding Tsofu. Who is known to have told Luca? Ogier from Loial's Stedding, years prior.


Additionally the Green Man in known to be in the same general direction, as Stedding Tsofu and Tar Valon, for a traveler who's beginning point is in Illian. All places Luca is known to have mentioned direct knowledge of, or other individuals mentioned his past through.



Who is the Fisher, in the game of sha'rah?


Not Rand al'Thor... :D




For convenience sake, he's that LoC "Heading South" chapter chunk of text:


Sitting his dun in front of Mat on that hilltop, Vanin looked disturbed. He approved of Mat not wanting to be called “my Lord,” since he did much like bowing to anyone, but he managed to knuckle his forehead casually in a rough sort of salute. “I think you got to see this. I don’t know what to make of it myself. You got to look for yourself.”

“Wait here,” Mat told the others, and to Vanin, “Show me.”

It was not a long ride, just over the next two hills and up a winding stream with wide borders of dried mud. The smell announced what Vanin wanted him to see before the first vultures waddled into the air. The others just flapped a few paces before settling again, darting featherless heads and squawking challenges. Worst were those that never looked up from their dinners, milling piles of stained black feathers.

An overturned wagon like a little house on wheels, virulently painted in green and blue and yellow, identified the scene as a Tinker caravan, but few of the wagons had escaped burning. Bodies lay everywhere in bright clothes torn and darkened with dried blood, men and women and children. A part of Mat analyzed it coldly; the rest of him wanted to vomit, or run, anything but sit there on Pips. The attackers had come from the west first. Most of the men and older boys lay there, mingled with what was left of a number of large dogs, as if they had tried to form a line, to hold back killers with their bodies while the women and children ran. A futile flight. Heaped corpses showed where they had run headlong into the second attack. Only the vultures moved now.

Vanin spat disgustedly through a gap in his teeth. “You chase them off before they steal too much—they’ll snap up children if you don’t look sharp; raise them as their own—maybe you add a kick to speed them, but you don’t do this. Who would?”

“I don’t know. Brigands.” The horses were all gone. But brigands wanted to steal, not kill, and no Tinker would resist if you stole his last penny and his coat to boot. Mat forced his hands to ease their grip on his reins. There was nowhere to look without seeing a dead woman, a dead child. Whoever did this had not wanted any survivors. He rode a slow circuit around the site, trying to ignore the vultures that hissed and flared their wings when he passed—the ground was too dry to hold tracks well, although he thought horses had gone in several directions—and came back to Vanin. “You could have told me about it. I don’t need to see.” Light, but I don’t!

“I could’ve told you there was no good tracks,” Vanin said, turning his horse to wade the shallow stream. “Maybe you need to see this.”

Fire had taken most of the wagon lying on its side, but the wagon bed survived, propped on yellow wheels with red spokes. A man in a coat that still showed a little eye-wrenching blue lay hard against it, one sprawled hand black with blood. What he had written in shaky letters stood out darker than the wood of the wagon bottom.

TELL THE DRAGON REBORN

Tell him what? Mat thought. That somebody had killed a whole caravan of Tinkers? Or had the man died before he could write whatever it was? It would not have been the first time Tinkers had come onto important information. In a story he would have lived just long enough to scrawl the vital bit that meant victory. Well, whatever the message, nobody was ever going to know a word more now.

“You were right, Vanin.” Mat hesitated. Tell the Dragon Reborn what? No reason to start any more rumors than they already had. “See the rest of this wagon burns before you leave. And if anybody asks, there was nothing here but a lot of dead men.” And women, and children.

Vanin nodded. “Filthy savages,” he muttered, and spat through his teeth again. “Could have been some of them, I suppose.”

That band of Aielmen had caught up, three or four hundred strong. They trotted down the slope and crossed the stream no more than fifty paces from the wagons. A number raised a hand in greeting; Mat did not recognize them, but a good many Aiel had heard of Rand al’Thor’s friend, he who wore the hat and whom it was better not to gamble against. Across the stream and up the next slope, and all those bodies might as well not have existed.

Bloody Aiel, Mat thought. He knew that Aiel avoided Tinkers, ignored them, if not why, but this . . . “I don’t think so,” he said. “See it burns, Vanin.”

Talmanes and the other two were right where he had left them, of course. When Mat told them what lay ahead, and that burial parties had to be told off, they nodded grimly, Daerid muttering a disbelieving, “Tinkers?”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 22 "Heading South" -- Mat Cauthon point of view, with Chel Vanin & Pips (horse)

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 09:15 PM
Surprising what you can dig out of books if to read long enough, isn't it?
-TSR

"The area’s been hunted clean, if you were hoping to find some game. There’s nothing back there of use.” “I wouldn’t say that,” the stranger said, glancing over his shoulder. “There are always things of use around, if you look closely enough. You can’t stare at them too long. To learn but not be overwhelmed, that is the balance.”
-ToM

Maybe keep the second in mind as well as the first. Certainly about the area being hunted clean and not staring too long. Of course there are still a few rabbits, and stare forever if it will fetch you a cow, but maybe keep it in mind nonetheless.

the_collective
06-20-2011, 10:12 PM
It struck me, as I read that quote so graciously provided by FelixPax that I wonder if it's possible that the attack on the Tuatha'an here may have been done by the red-veiled Aiel we see at the end of ToM. Particularly the specific mention by Vanin that it may have been Aiel that had done it (as I hope we all know RJ loved to do; that is - have a character say something offhandedly that is dismissed immediately by the others/readers entirely, but turns out to be true). Of course, the ones Mat saw weren't the culprits.

Oh, and TheUnreasoner - Kudos on pulling that one out.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 03:34 AM
Haha thanks. I just was reading Felix's sig for the umpteenth time and thought it represented a very telling mindset.

Terez
06-21-2011, 03:50 AM
It struck me, as I read that quote so graciously provided by FelixPax that I wonder if it's possible that the attack on the Tuatha'an here may have been done by the red-veiled Aiel we see at the end of ToM.
It's possible, but hardly necessary. Any Darkfriend Aiel would work fine.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 04:45 AM
Or Niall's dragonsworn, or almost anyone.

the_collective
06-21-2011, 12:54 PM
Both valid points. I'm gonna keep an eye out for further hints, because I'm really curious now... The key question is why the Tuatha'an (or this particular band, at least)?

Idle wondering; not intended to jack the thread topic...

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 02:10 PM
There is hardly a thread to jack, and Felix himself seemed to deem this kosher. I think a large part of the answer lies in knowing who wrote it. If the killers did, it might be a crime of opportunity.