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looqas
06-15-2011, 03:01 AM
What question would you like to be answered by Brandon or Team Jordan? You know the one that you've been wondering since day one or for a long, long time. I mean those questions where you just want to know right now. Damn the consequences.


I've got a 'couple'.

- Who is Nakomi? I'm going to be severely disappointed if she remains a mystery

- Where is Demandred? Screw the plot. I need to know.

- Shaidar Haran. Full exposure.

- Padan Fain. Also full exposure.

- making of ter'angreal and other angreals. The mechanics explained.

- I also would like to have a detailed analysis about the drilling of the Bore and what happened at the Sealing.

GonzoTheGreat
06-15-2011, 03:15 AM
- Shaidar Haran. Full exposure.

- Padan Fain. Also full exposure.You're asking for the Playgirl Supplement to the Shayol Ghul Gazette? Well, to each his own, I guess.

Terez
06-15-2011, 08:20 AM
Who is Nakomi? I'm going to be severely disappointed if she remains a mystery
Brandon seemed to hint that Nakomi would be left open to interpretation.

Where is Demandred? Screw the plot. I need to know.
In Murandy, duh.

The Unreasoner
06-15-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm going to be seriously pissed if he's in murandy. One I asked Jordan at a kod signing was who between Shaidar Haran and moridin rank higher. My answer was something along the lines of "they are not the same person"

Southpaw2012
06-15-2011, 10:09 PM
why did they respond with, "they are not the same person" if the question was asked around who was ranked higher? But yeah, as for Nakomi, I'm sure it won't be outright said but maybe implied in the encyclopedia. I want to know the ranking of strongest to weakest among the Forsaken. We know Moridin is #1 but there has been confusion over if Aginor was second most or Demandred or Lanfear or what.

The Unreasoner
06-15-2011, 10:35 PM
well it was just jordan, and i don't know why he said that. he answered while i was still asking though. i didnt bother asking again, he seemed irritated in general, and i figured i would just get rafoed anyway

Zombie Sammael
06-18-2011, 07:54 AM
I'd like to know who the Forsaken posing as Sammael is, and why he has been doing so since Sammael died.

Terez
06-18-2011, 08:38 AM
I'd like to know who the Forsaken posing as Sammael is...
You made an assumption there.

Zombie Sammael
06-18-2011, 10:45 AM
You made an assumption there.

I have a feeling I'm wading into an old debate here, but doesn't it have to be a Forsaken because of the "mark"? I'll go and see what I can dredge up....

Terez
06-18-2011, 11:18 AM
I have a feeling I'm wading into an old debate here.
Indeed. The only real alternative is Fain (who notably has a connection to Mashadar, which corrupted Sammael's soul, and who notably also has both the power of illusion and the ability to control Shadowspawn, not to mention a pet Fade, totally broken to his will, that he kept around for future use). That idea got a good bit stronger with TOM.

Zombie Sammael
06-18-2011, 11:46 AM
Well, okay, with that in mind, this may violate my rule against posting new theories until the reread is over, but what if it was an actual zombie Sammael? Fain can create zombie trollocs that have been mashadar-ed, why not a Forsaken? I know RJ said he was "dead" and "toast" but if Fain is using some sort of zombie that rule's not necessarily violated.

Terez
06-18-2011, 12:02 PM
It seems unlikely that there was anything left of Sammael's body; illusion is the more likely scenario.

Zombie Sammael
06-18-2011, 12:24 PM
It seems unlikely that there was anything left of Sammael's body; illusion is the more likely scenario.

What would have destroyed his body? He was killed by Mashadar - I thought it killed, not destroyed utterly.

The Unreasoner
06-18-2011, 12:37 PM
This seems to be a question where zombie sammael is uniquely qualified to answer. Fwiw, my money is on Taim or Demandred. And before we go into the whole Taim is markless, many things believed impossible by even the forsaken are later found to be not.

Zombie Sammael
06-18-2011, 01:31 PM
This seems to be a question where zombie sammael is uniquely qualified to answer. Fwiw, my money is on Taim or Demandred. And before we go into the whole Taim is markless, many things believed impossible by even the forsaken are later found to be not.

If I was a roleplay sock-puppet account like Weiramon then perhaps. But sadly, it's just a username - one I picked without even having contemplated the theory, actually.

Terez
06-18-2011, 01:47 PM
For any of the Forsaken (whether you include Taim or not), the chance of success is not worth the risk and the trouble. Taim likely hired Slayer, but he doesn't fit for the Shadowspawn attack, which seems to have been intended to be a blow against the Shadow (stealing resources) just as much as it was a blow against Rand.

FelixPax
06-18-2011, 05:24 PM
- Who is Nakomi? I'm going to be severely disappointed if she remains a mystery


A friend of Tuatha'an.
A woman who has broken the bonds of Aiel societies, clans to join a far larger group: Da'Shain Aiel.



But how many citizens now believed the Da’shain Aiel had once served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dedicated" -- Jonai point of view AND Rand al'Thor point of view; in Rhuidean



- Where is Demandred? Screw the plot. I need to know.

Following tripping over the Dragon's plow like furrows, as usual... loaths, "rocks hidden in the mulch".

Who's is Valan Luca's new bright and shiny toy 'snow plow'?

Demandred, but of course.
The Pattern Knows. ;)

nameless
06-18-2011, 05:43 PM
For any of the Forsaken (whether you include Taim or not), the chance of success is not worth the risk and the trouble. Taim likely hired Slayer, but he doesn't fit for the Shadowspawn attack, which seems to have been intended to be a blow against the Shadow (stealing resources) just as much as it was a blow against Rand.

Aran'gar's a better suspect for who set Slayer on Rand's trail. She implied in POV that she had a plan to kill Rand and Slayer's the only one as yet unaccounted for.

Terez
06-19-2011, 02:50 AM
Aran'gar's a better suspect for who set Slayer on Rand's trail. She implied in POV that she had a plan to kill Rand and Slayer's the only one as yet unaccounted for.
But Slayer knew his master was male. It could be that she was disguising her voice, but she could have had all sorts of plans for killing Rand, so why assume it?

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 03:16 AM
I think both aran'gar and taim are valid theories. she could have had a proxy. or more likely, she disguised herself, easily done in tar, and she has been a man so pretty easy to know the specs of one. not to mention disguising herself as male might be extremely effective.
Fain-have doubts about him for slayer because i doubt he can really use tar. of course, if he has a zombie sammael, he becomes my number one suspect in both sets of orders
Demandred-i think he would want a more personal kill. sending isam to get him in his sleep doesn't seem to fit. certainly likely for the manor assault.

Terez
06-19-2011, 03:40 AM
Fain-have doubts about him for slayer because i doubt he can really use tar.
No one suggested he ordered Slayer.

of course, if he has a zombie sammael, he becomes my number one suspect in both sets of orders
Demandred-i think he would want a more personal kill. sending isam to get him in his sleep doesn't seem to fit. certainly likely for the manor assault.
Demandred seems the least likely of all of them, based not only on the scene in question (he had no idea about Sammael), but also on the fact that he would have been most aware of the fact that the attack had zero chance of success. Rand didn't even bust out the Choedan Kal, but why wouldn't he, from Demandred's perspective? 100,000 Shadowspawn are nothing against that, and certainly not worth risking the wrath of the Nae'blis and the Dark One to steal them.

GonzoTheGreat
06-19-2011, 04:06 AM
Even more than that: Rand could have left quite simply by traveling elsewhere. He need not even have left the battlefield: he could have gone to a Trolloc-free position from which he could continue to rain down death on all the Shadowspawn.

All the Forsaken knew that Rand could Travel, and they would not have expected him to die in a last stand at the Alamo scenario. Fain, however, was far less aware of the possibilities of Travel, and far more likely to overlook them (as Rand did too, admittedly).

Still, I do not think it was Fain, mainly because it seems totally out of character for him to find the patience to set up such a massive attack. I would have expected him to have eaten his intermediaries halfway through, or something.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 05:00 AM
I have serious doubts that the manor assault was fain sans sammael. Impersonating a chosen and stealing shadowspawn are two different things. I doubt he could have managed to steal so many, especially considering his difficulty getting myrdraal. Impersonating one seems beyond his powers.
And I said Demandred was "likely". Taim and aran'gar are obviously more likely.

And of course anyone, even fain, would know the attack was bound to fail. But it stood a decent chance of forcing rand out, and potentially somewhere more vulnerable.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 05:05 AM
Also I don't think that the chosen other than moridin realize that the will of the do and that of the nae'blis are practically one and the same. Moridin's wrath can be dangerous, but moridin can be lied to, perhaps he can even be killed in the minds of the forsaken. The do's wrath is certainly deadly, and even legitimate excuses are not made.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2011, 05:09 AM
Some problems with the zombie Sammael/Fain theory include that Fain would have had to get zombie Sammael out of Shadar Logoth before it was destroyed in the cleansing, and as far as we know he was elsewhere located during the relevant periods. Of course, it might not necessarily be a functioning zombie as such. Something to do with Sammael dying by mashadar might allow Fain to imitate him, and his bizarre connection with the Shadow might allow him to assimilate the mark.

Terez
06-19-2011, 05:14 AM
Some problems with the zombie Sammael/Fain theory include that Fain would have had to get zombie Sammael out of Shadar Logoth before it was destroyed in the cleansing
The assumption is that Mashadar itself is a part of Fain, and was all along. He had a connection to it at the time Sammael was killed, so he didn't have to be in the city itself (which he avoided for fear of becoming trapped again). That's why the theory got stronger after TOM; before then, we weren't sure that Fain had a connection to Mashadar itself.

Furthermore, Fain has no problems at all getting Myrddraal, and there's nothing to suggest that it took any great amount of organization on his part to pull it off—certainly no more than was required for the Whitecloak attack in Caemlyn.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2011, 05:23 AM
Presumably Fain gets his Myrddraal by Mashadar-ing Myrddraal that he meets - or is there something I've missed by which he's been luring them into Shadar Logoth then Mashadar-ing and zombie-ing them? I don't think Mashadar would have the power to sort of grab Sammael's body and bring it to Fain for a zombie-ing.

FelixPax
06-19-2011, 06:03 AM
One theme of questions I'd truly be interesting to "reading answers" about in AMoL book is:


Can Animals speak and Dream--other than Wolves, Crows, Rats, Cattle--with Human characters? Or among each other, one Animal species to another Animal species?


As in Dolphins, Silver Blue Fish, Leopards, Lions, Lionfish to:


Horses:


Can Horses speak to Humans?
Can Horses speak to Humans in a Dream? Or the TAR?
Do Horses known who are Ta'veren? On sight or smell or sound or touch?
Do Horses have 'a collective historical memory', similar to Wolves?
Will Bela finally SPEAK?



Red Birds:



Are Red Birds among the Sea Folk Clans, known commonly to have a Fortune-Telling trait?

Are Birds akin to Wolves (and Horses) in that they possess a collective historical memory?



Suddenly and strangely content, he set a white stone. “Did I ever tell you,” he said around his pipestem, “about the wager I once made with a Domani woman? She had eyes that could drink a man’s soul, and an odd-looking red bird she had bought off a Sea Folk ship. She claimed it could tell the future. This bird had a fat yellow beak nearly as long as its body, and it . . . ”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 4 "Strings" -- Thom point of view, with Mat Cauthon; in Thom's servant room in the Stone of Tear.


Dolphins:



Will the stories to found to be true? Will Dolphins save the lives of drowning individuals in AMoL book?
Can Dolphins and Wolves talk in Dreams? Or perhaps Sharks and Wolves talk in Dreams?



But the dolphins, great sleek shapes, were wondrous enough, a guard of honor taking Wavedancer back where he belonged. Those she recognized from descriptions in books; it was said if they found you drowning, they would push you to shore.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 20 "Winds Rising" -- Elayne point of view, with Thom; abroad the Wavedancer.

Terez
06-19-2011, 06:09 AM
Presumably Fain gets his Myrddraal by Mashadar-ing Myrddraal that he meets
His power to wield Mashadar as a weapon is a recent thing, and he's been showing the ability to control Myrddraal since TGH.

I don't think Mashadar would have the power to sort of grab Sammael's body and bring it to Fain for a zombie-ing.There was no need of a body. Again, Fain uses illusion.

Zombie Sammael
06-19-2011, 08:16 AM
His power to wield Mashadar as a weapon is a recent thing, and he's been showing the ability to control Myrddraal since TGH.

There was no need of a body. Again, Fain uses illusion.

Yeah, that makes sense. So the presumption is that Fain was able to replicate the Mark of the Chosen, possibly Sammael's specifically due to the way Sammael was killed by Mashadar, with a bit of illusion thrown in for good measure, and used that to order the trollocs to attack Rand for fun and profit. Therefore no particular need for a zombie Sammael, as such.

Terez
06-19-2011, 01:27 PM
I don't know if the assumption is necessarily that he somehow duplicated the Forsaken Mark; the assumption is just that he had a number of tricks in his arsenal, from the pet Fade to the ability for illusion to the ability to make Fades scared shitless to the connection with Mashadar. He might have been able to use his pet Fade somehow just because Fades are probably not known for questionable loyalty, and it's common sense to assume that Fades can pass orders on to other Fades; it would be inefficient for the Forsaken to have to order every Fade. Perhaps the Sammael illusion was conjured - Fain can notably make speaking illusions, as we saw in Far Madding - to give orders to the pet Fade in view of other Fades, but not so close that they could discern the lack of the Mark. But perhaps the Mark was duplicated in the illusion. Hard to say.

The main reason why Fain sticks out as a candidate is the dual motive that is unique to himself; that is, that he was able to take a swipe at Rand and a swipe at the Shadow at the same time, and while Fain has shown a desire to kill Rand personally, he's off his rocker enough that he has ordered Whitecloaks to try to kill Rand before (thinking he would have killed them if they had been successful). It was, in his mind, just a test. But his desperation was steadily increasing between then and Far Madding, and Far Madding might be seen as a last attempt to do it with his own hands. If he can't pull it off in a place where Rand can't use the Power, then could he ever? Another thing that made the theory stronger in TOM was simply the fact that Fain was in the Blight. Before then we had no idea where he was. It seems likely that he used the Ways to get there in the first place; stealing Shadowspawn at that point was just a convenient opportunity, with so many hanging around.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 02:35 PM
You make an assumption that fain caused the apparitions in far padding. Purely from personality and motive, fain makes the most sense, and it may be the case that it is all as you said. But one important point, controlling myrdraal for him seems far from easy. Maybe with a handful to pass orders he could have managed it, but the logistics seem a little daunting. Myrdraal fear him, and at least recently die at his touch and feel something "terribly wrong", likely the taint of aridhol, in his presence. It takes a modicum of time to break them to his will.
Not to mention the sheer variety of bands involved in the assault. Granted, we know little of the trolloc structure, and it may be that stealing a handful from multiple sources is easier than one big score, but multiple thefts would require a good deal of planning, and would likely rouse suspicions quickly.

Also, it seems mashadar emanates from the taint, but as the destruction of Shaidar logoth had no effect on fain, I don't see that fain really has some transcendent connection to the city. It's like a disease with multiple carriers, but the two are largely self sufficient. Mordeth, as patient zero, may give fain powers above and beyond that of the city, but a eternal link seems to be pushing it.

Terez
06-19-2011, 03:43 PM
You make an assumption that fain caused the apparitions in far padding.
It's quite clear that he did; he even had a conversation in his head with Mordeth about it, arguing that he didn't want to do it because he wanted Rand to know who was killing him (rather than dying while he was distracted by the illusion).

But one important point, controlling myrdraal for him seems far from easy.
It seems to get easier for him as time goes on.

Also, it seems mashadar emanates from the taint, but as the destruction of Shaidar logoth had no effect on fain, I don't see that fain really has some transcendent connection to the city.
The city and Mashadar are two separate things. We know he didn't have any connection to the city; that says nothing about his (obvious) connection to Mashadar itself.

It's like a disease with multiple carriers, but the two are largely self sufficient.
It's more like a mindless hive mind, and all of its victims are a part of it (hence the eyes in the city).

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 04:57 PM
Or the eyes are a result of a paranoia inducing taint. Maybe he made a sammael illusion. Maybe he made the ashaman ones too. I don't think he is intimately linked to all instances of mashadar, I think mashadar emanates from the taint. So if he made sammael, he plausibly would have needed to visit Shaidar logoth first. I do have some doubts that a myrdraal would be fooled by a simple illusion. Of course, one pet theory of mine holds that the dagger is the main object of power driving mordeth, and if that is the case, maybe fain can "command" all instances of mashadar. Certainly ta'veren twisting chance makes mat choosing The Item possible, if that is where it was kept.

finnssss
06-19-2011, 11:02 PM
Or the eyes are a result of a paranoia inducing taint. Maybe he made a sammael illusion. Maybe he made the ashaman ones too. I don't think he is intimately linked to all instances of mashadar, I think mashadar emanates from the taint. So if he made sammael, he plausibly would have needed to visit Shaidar logoth first. I do have some doubts that a myrdraal would be fooled by a simple illusion. Of course, one pet theory of mine holds that the dagger is the main object of power driving mordeth, and if that is the case, maybe fain can "command" all instances of mashadar. Certainly ta'veren twisting chance makes mat choosing The Item possible, if that is where it was kept.

Your problem here is pretty simple actually.
Mashadar does come from the Taint, but you fail to realise that the taint is from Mordeth, not the city.
Mordeth infected the city and Mashadar came from him and his "research" in the first place.
Mashadar wasn't even present when the cities' inhabitants killed each other, it came after. If I had to take a guess, I would say that Mordeth somehow harnessed those corrupted souls to create Mashadar.

SL was only an largely infected area, the actual infection itself is still very much alive with the Fain/Mordeth merging.
All SL was to Mordeth was a 2000 year old prison, its destruction means nothing to him now that he's free.

Obviously, Mashadar can function on its own and has some level of sentience/intelligence but make no mistake, Fain/Mordeth can take full control of it anytime he wants.
It came from him and is part of him after all.

Q: Is Machin Shin a result of the Dark One's taint on saidin being used in the creation of the Ways, or a result of some portion of the corruption of Shadar Logoth creeping into the Ways via the Waygate there? Or is it something completely orthogonal to both these powers, merely being a parasite that showed up once the place began to grow dim?

RJ: Machin Shin is a function of the Dark One's taint on the male side of the force.. er.. source. [we all chuckled, and he mentioned how much he'd been traveling. :)] The corruption on Shadar Logoth is a result of an evil specifically designed to combat the Dark One's taint. This is why Rand experiences a resonance while channeling in Shadar Logoth -- the Dark One's taint is reacting to the corruption of Shadar Logoth.

Designed by who...obviously, by Mordeth.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 11:25 PM
I think we are on slightly different pages...
I realize that mordeth (and his item, which may require a sort of human host. It may even be harmless without some modicum of agency directing it) is the source of the taint. But the taint seems self replicating. If Bryne took a pebble from SL, and went on to caemlyn, eventually he could potentially turn it into a second SL, albeit one without mordeth. Bryne may not, in fact likely would not, be able to survive mashadar, but he would be able to infect the city nonetheless. The city "caught" the taint from mordeth, but it is certainly still capable of infecting others. The original taint may be from mordeth, but the city is, in a way, another contagious patient. And if I am wrong about the dagger, if it really is only an ornate, tainted, weapon, it only makes this specific point stronger.

Mashadar itself seems to be an accidental side effect of the taint, and the taint is likely that which was designed.

And, in all good humor, I have never seen the point of quoting an entire post in the one immediately succeeding.

Also sorry for the weird face. Can't figure out how to pull it. Posting is difficult from android tablets.

The Unreasoner
06-19-2011, 11:40 PM
It's like taint/corruption=balefire and mashadar=damage caused by pattern burn. You can aim balefire, choosing who or what dissapears because of the time lost by the target is far harder.

To put it in context of the sammael issue, it seems very probable that fain/mordeth has uncommon influence over those tainted (infected by the designed taint). But mashadar simply kills and consumes. Dying by mashadar does not automatically put one under fain's power. It seems that it would require some immediate extra action. If mashadar kills with fain present, he has some power over them, but it looks likely that this is an unusual case. The "tainted patients" exist independently. The destruction of SL had no effect on fain, and was even implied that it wasn't even ever a question. Likewise, the death of sammael by mashadar emanating from a different patient should have no real connection to fain. He may be able to claim them at the moment of death, as they are in effect killed by a weaponized taint, but not even a short time after.

looqas
06-20-2011, 02:05 AM
Well, okay, with that in mind, this may violate my rule against posting new theories until the reread is over, but what if it was an actual zombie Sammael? Fain can create zombie trollocs that have been mashadar-ed, why not a Forsaken? I know RJ said he was "dead" and "toast" but if Fain is using some sort of zombie that rule's not necessarily violated.

What re-read? Mine? You got it all wrong if it. My personal re-read of the ToM is just that. No rules or regulations there. I'm not aware of other re-reads being discussed lately.

Interesting point. Fain controlling some Forsaken via his love tentacles.

Terez
06-20-2011, 02:07 AM
I think he was saying he wants to finish his own re-read before posting theories.

finnssss
06-20-2011, 03:08 AM
In the end, the only way we will be able to get a final answer on Mashadar is when/if Fain/Mordeth dies, if Mashadar survives and any item corrupted by him stays corrupted.

sleepinghour
06-20-2011, 08:27 AM
1. Not really a question, but the OP strength list would be nice to have.

2. Do Aes Sedai bonded to Asha'man get any of the usual Warder benefits like quicker healing and ability to go without sleep/food for an extended period of time?

3. What do smallclothes look like? Are they more like boxers or briefs?

4. Why did Isam merge with Luc? How? Was one or both dead at the time?

5. Was Egwene meant to be a disliked character, or did fandom respond to her character in an unforeseen way?

(I'm not trying to start another Egwene debate here, and I know there are also fans who like Egwene. But I think it's fair to say that a significant portion of fandom dislikes her, and am genuinely curious what Team Jordan thinks of the backlash against her character. Did they anticipate that at all?)

6. Are any of the characters besides Rand the reincarnation of a famous historical figure?

Zombie Sammael
06-20-2011, 08:38 AM
I think he was saying he wants to finish his own re-read before posting theories.

That is what I was saying - I'm at the very end of TFOH if anyone was interested. I feel I need to refamiliarise myself with the books before posting any new theories.

With that in mind, Unreasoner, I think I disagree with you about Mashadar. All we know about the residents of Aridhol was that they were trying to come up with something that would use "the weapons of the shadow to fight the shadow". You may well have a quote which can defeat this, but it would make sense to me if that weapon actually was Mashadar, which was then released, by accident, upon the city, and wiped out the residents. That same freak accident may well have turned Mordeth into his evil spirit form which was then able to escape by merging with/possessing Padan Fain. But "a weapon of the shadow to fight the shadow" sure sounds like Mashadar itself to me.

finnssss
06-20-2011, 12:49 PM
That is what I was saying - I'm at the very end of TFOH if anyone was interested. I feel I need to refamiliarise myself with the books before posting any new theories.

With that in mind, Unreasoner, I think I disagree with you about Mashadar. All we know about the residents of Aridhol was that they were trying to come up with something that would use "the weapons of the shadow to fight the shadow". You may well have a quote which can defeat this, but it would make sense to me if that weapon actually was Mashadar, which was then released, by accident, upon the city, and wiped out the residents. That same freak accident may well have turned Mordeth into his evil spirit form which was then able to escape by merging with/possessing Padan Fain. But "a weapon of the shadow to fight the shadow" sure sounds like Mashadar itself to me.

Mashadar didn't actually show up until after the residents wiped each other out.
So while Mash didn't kill them, IMO it's very likely their deaths were part of its creation.

Zombie Sammael
06-20-2011, 12:52 PM
Mashadar didn't actually show up until after the residents wiped each other out.
So while Mash didn't kill them, IMO it's very likely their deaths were part of its creation.

Do you actually have the quote to prove that? To me, the "Mashadar as weapon" theory seems rather neat - it certainly explains a lot, rather than just vague evil and suspicion reaching boiling point. Of course, RJ is as likely to go for one as the other.

Zombie Sammael
06-20-2011, 01:17 PM
In fact, reading through the interview database, there are some quotes that seem to support my idea:

The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction.

Emphasis mine. From this quote, it sounds like the people of Aridhol created something which destroyed them, rather than destroying each other directly in some sort of frenzied mass murder. This could be either the taint on SL generally or Mashadar, but while the taint is shown to create suspicion and outright paranoia, we know Mashadar directly kills.

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it. He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with, but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evil things that are old in a similar way.
Matt: Is the assumption then that he found one of these?
Brandon: He did.
Matt: He found one or multiple?
Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him, but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought, 'We are going to raise this kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow', but he was already by then corrupted.
Matt: Is this same corrupting influence what corrupts everyone through the dagger itself?
Brandon: Yeah. Through him, yes. And even through his presence.

Mordeth found a thing of evil that created the suspicion surrounding Aridhol. This does not appear to be even the same thing as Mashadar. Mashadar is an evil mist that kills things, not a paranoia-inducing taint. In addition, Mashadar appears to seek out Shadowspawn before humans.

Mashadar fits the bill of a weapon of the Shadow designed to fight the Shadow perfectly, and would also perfectly fit the description of something that the people of Aridhol created that was also their own destruction.

Also bear in mind that much of the information we have on Aridhol in TEOTW came from Moiraine. Here's what RJ had to say about Aes Sedai information relating to Aridhol:

What Verin and Moiraine thought was incorrect; they were extending it too far. It is the one of things you may have noted in the books. Aes Sedai often believe they know more than they actually know.

:D

The Unreasoner
06-20-2011, 01:24 PM
They created their own destruction by accepting and perpetuating suspicion and extremism, created by mordeth. Mashadar didn't show up until everyone was dead. Encyclopaedia seems to have a resource.

finnssss
06-20-2011, 01:45 PM
They created their own destruction by accepting and perpetuating suspicion and extremism, created by mordeth. Mashadar didn't show up until everyone was dead. Encyclopaedia seems to have a resource.


The source is RJ from aCoS signing report actually.

The Unreasoner
06-20-2011, 01:53 PM
I should have said, it is stated outright by the ewot, and so they either have a source or are quite cocky.

the_collective
06-20-2011, 06:32 PM
I'm sure I'll think of more to ask Team Jordan, but right off the top of my head:

Was it impossible for Ishamael to channel the One Power (Saidin, in his case, of course) while he was still partially sealed in the Bore?

I've never seen this addressed in all the interviews/questions I've read on this site (and others), and I'd like to comment further on this, but will hold my tongue for a response from someone that has a good idea what the answer might be. Obviously he could channel the True Power while still sealed (and that makes intuitive sense if you think about it), so please don't assume that I'm asking if Ishy was effectively neutered entirely behind that barrier - that isn't what I mean.

FelixPax
06-20-2011, 07:39 PM
What re-read? Mine? You got it all wrong if it. My personal re-read of the ToM is just that. No rules or regulations there. I'm not aware of other re-reads being discussed lately.

Interesting point. Fain controlling some Forsaken via his love tentacles.


I am amused by the idea of the creature formerly known as Padan Fadan Mordeth controlling an Forsaken channeling powers.... However there is a huge glaring problem, in terms of plot outcomes.


If the 'Dream Worlds' and the 'True World' are merging; the powers of Saidar and Saidin are inferior to the power of belief, thought and a strong dreamer's dreams.



How do reader's know this as a fact?


Nynaeve's Accepted Test, where she altered time and events, with thought.
Perrin's interactions with Egwene al'Vere during a dream conflict over Tar Valon (ToM book). Thought is superior to saidar created balefire weave.



Recollect this scene from Nynaeve's Accepted Test?


Abruptly there were clouds in the sky, threatening billows of gray and black. Lightning leaped from the cloud, straight for Nynaeve’s heart.

It seemed to her, just for a heartbeat, as if time had suddenly slowed, as though that heartbeat took forever. She felt the flow inside her—saidar, came a distant thought—felt the answering flow in the lightning. And she altered the direction of the flow. Time leaped forward.

With a crash, the bolt shattered stone above Aginor’s head. The Forsaken’s sunken eyes widened, and he tottered back. “You cannot! It cannot be!” He leaped away as lightning struck where he had stood, stone erupting in a fountain of shards.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 23 "The Testing" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view, fighting Aginor in a Dream like World, during Accepted Test.



Appearance is an illusion.
Thought is reality.

The Unreasoner
06-20-2011, 07:54 PM
You know I'm actually in agreement with a lot of that. I always thought if a channeler was severed without knowing they would be able to still channel in tar, and possibly if they did know, if they were aware of the possibility and had enormous strength of will.

Three questions

Could a terangreal be made that gives its user tar powers within some region of the real world?

What about one that could siphon off the taint, either by storing it up to some finite limit or blocking it entirely?

Since one can enter tar bodily, could they also use it for interworld travel? Maybe fetch extra ogier, channeler, grolm.

I like this thread. Some questions seem a little beyond the fandom's ability to answer.

the_collective
06-21-2011, 05:08 PM
Another question (in addition to my unaddressed Ishamael question from above) I just thought of:

Is it possible to use Need in the real world, as is done in Tel'aran'rhiod?

Moiraine states the Eye of the World can be found in this way, but it seems to be an effect of the Green Man (and/or his stewardship of the Eye), not the Pattern:

TEotW: Chapter 49 "The Dark One Stirs"

"The Green Man senses need, and there can be no need greater than ours. Our need is the hope of the world."

I believe we have evidence of this being used elsewhere in the series, but only by LTT/Rand due to his close connection to the Pattern, who I believe may have a Talent for it (conveniently enough, he does just this - while channeling, no less, if the "hot pinpricks" and "burning" bones he felt during this experience are anything like the "freezing" bones and "prickled" skin he felt every other time he channeled during this book - in order to find the Eye in the first place), but I'll save all that for another post. Without a "yes/no/RAFO" from Team Jordan on this, it's all idle speculation.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2011, 05:17 PM
Another question (in addition to my unaddressed Ishamael question from above) I just thought of:

Is it possible to use Need in the real world, as is done in Tel'aran'rhiod?Wasn't that how Verin figured out where she had to wait for Mat?

For that matter, it may also be how Ishamael and Lanfear managed to track ta'veren.

And it may be at the core of Mat's random walk method of finding things.

the_collective
06-21-2011, 05:24 PM
Wasn't that how Verin figured out where she had to wait for Mat?

For that matter, it may also be how Ishamael and Lanfear managed to track ta'veren.

And it may be at the core of Mat's random walk method of finding things.


Well, if any of these are true, I'd certainly be wrong about LTT/Rand being the only one able to use it. I'm certainly going to look into all of this further, myself...

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:42 PM
I think strong enough need is reflected in tar, whether the "needer" is there or not. The threads tugging from ta'veren may in actuality be tugging at reflections in tar, and a person is being tugged towards what tar needs them to be, to their reflection. It has been theorized that the green man was in a pocket in tar, and Lanfear and ishamael spent enough time there they might be able to track any tugging.

For verin, I think it was more deduction on her part for tracking mat. Maybe mat's need drew her out and held her, but all she knew was that she was being drawn and held.

Interesting question re ishamael. Likely he only used the TP anyway, but that is no answer. An answer to this could shed some light on the nature of the seal.

the_collective
06-21-2011, 06:06 PM
Interesting question re ishamael. Likely he only used the TP anyway, but that is no answer. An answer to this could shed some light on the nature of the seal.

Perhaps so. I was more concerned with the nature of Ishy/Moridin's extreme addiction to the TP. If he was unable to use the OP at all for 3000 years, yet still had to get things done, I would think that he used the TP enough to warrant a total dependency. This would imply that, even though Ishy/Moridin is now free, it never even occurs to him to use the OP; in which case there is no WAY Moridin could BE Taim, despite my previous inclination to believe this is the case.

I'm very curious about all of this.

FelixPax
06-22-2011, 12:50 AM
Wasn't that how Verin figured out where she had to wait for Mat?

For that matter, it may also be how Ishamael and Lanfear managed to track ta'veren.

Need alone?

How about a combination of "affinity" and "ta'veren pull"?


Verin has repeated healed Mat Cauthon across the series, in:


Fal Dara, linked with Siuan, Moiraine, Leane (TGH,Ch7)
Cairhien (TGH,Ch31)
Falme to Tar Valon, months long journey with Egwene, Hurin, Nynaeve, Elayne, Mat.
Tar Valon, separating Red Ruby Dagger from Mat Cauthon(TDR,Ch18): linked with Alanna, Brendas, Leane, Serafelle, Alviarin Freidhen, Sheriam, Verin, Anaiya, and one other.




Lanfear healed Rand at Falme, Min point of view, thus re-creating a connection to him. Once called an "affinity" by Moiraine.


“I will go further,” Moiraine said when Nynaeve kept silent. “You used the Power to Heal either Perrin or Egwene at some time. An affinity develops. You can sense the presence of someone you have Healed. In Baerlon you came straight to the Stag and Lion, though it was not the nearest inn to any gate by which you could have entered. Of the people from Emond’s Field, only Perrin and Egwene were at the inn when you arrived. Was it Perrin, or Egwene? Or both?”

“Egwene,” Nynaeve mumbled. She had always taken it for granted that she could sometimes tell who was approaching her even when she could not see them; not until now had she realized that it was always someone on whom her cures had worked almost miraculously well.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 21 "Listen to the Wind" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Moiraine and Lan


Previous to that scene, Lanfear healed Rand's hand in a Mirror World (Rand pov).

Lanfear in all likelihood had questioned Verin Sedai, before Hurin, Loial and Rand were pulled into a Mirror World at a camp site Ingtar picked.


For once, Ingtar called a halt to the day’s march with the sun still golden above the horizon.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 11 "Glimmers of the Pattern" -- Rand point of view, with Uno, Ragan, Masema, Hurin, Loial, Mat Cauthon, Perrin among others.


Whereas, Ishamael/Moridin was able track Rand al'Thor using Animals, Shadowspawn, and Darkfriends, in The Eye of the World book.


Separately, Padan Fain was used as an individual to mark the three ta'veren boys for Moridin. Afterwards being identified and marked by Fain, Moridin was able to find their dreams.


--------------------------------------------------------------------


Who should also have an "affinity" with both Mat Cauthon and Perrin?


Leane
Siuan
Moiraine
Nynaeve

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:56 AM
I always feel like I'm in an ashram when I read your posts...
But I think she would have to be pretty close for an affinity to play much of a role. Solid point nonetheless

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 03:36 AM
The point becomes a bit less solid when you consider the fact that Verin was not drawn towards where Mat was, but instead towards where he was eventually going to be.

FelixPax
06-22-2011, 08:23 PM
Amyrlin Anghara: a mystery?


During a search of information about one historical Queen Rhiannon (four references to up KoD), I came across an odd character memory observation from Mat's point of view.


Who was an Amyrlin Seat called Anghara, during the Free Years era? Where is her reborn soul now?


Like Isebele of Dal Calain, who had made the Amyrlin Anghara come to her. That was one of the old memories; Dal Calain had vanished in the Trolloc Wars.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 16 "A Touch on the Cheek" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tylin Quintara, by the Grace of the Light, Queen of Altara, Mistress of the Four Winds, Guardian of the Sea of Storms, High Seat of House Mitsobar

For some reason, the names of Elayne (Isebele?), Egwene (Anghara?), and Fortuona come to mind in particular, as possible candidates.


Can Team Jordan give readers a further hint or clue, about Isebele and Amyrlin Anghara current identities, in one of the two WoT books to be published in the near future?



Queen Rhiannon

In terms of the historical Queen Rhiannon references given, both Fortuona and Elayne characters and situations are parallel to, what little is known of her.