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The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 03:39 AM
Do you feel that maybe mat had it too easy?
Does siuan's sycophancy give you a headache?
Is rand getting more obnoxiously preachy by the day?
Perhaps you are nauseated by the plethora of dull characters with an inordinate amount of screen time.
If you hate...hate with all of your heart...common sense being passed off as uncommon cleverness...
If you find thom to be a smug little bastard, and Gawyn tiptoeing around decisions makes you itch inside...
If galad came across as creepy with Egwene...
If with Egwene herself you find yourself noticing the absence of scenes to demonstrate competence and cleverness and instead a double helping of ones featuring people talking about her competence...

Join me in hating Garth Bryne.
As boring as any Aes Sedai, as preachy as rand (as if we even care about Bryne's opinions), as incompetent as the forsaken, a bigger pervert than galad, a bigger stalker than min. A storyline devoid of challenges that even the biggest mat haters, few they may be, must acknowledge. A huge suck up. As much a smug little bastard as thom until Rahvin did the world a service and knocked him down a few pegs.

My biggest complaint with Egwene is that she somehow commands respect without, in my opinion, earning it, at least not in the amount she enjoys it. She is also thought of as clever somehow. I look for scenes where she solves a problem in a truly innovative way, finds a good solution where none are obvious, but I fail to locate one. There are several spots where one could potentially be, I was legitimately curious what to do with the aging Warder of the white (my gut says either release him or remind him that as Warder to a white battles are generally not an everyday occurrence and otherwise reassure him. But of course it couldn't be so obvious if there was a question, and the scene was missed anyway). Egwene's redemption comes from the existence of some sisters who do not, as lightning said, "fawn all over her"

Gareth has no such counterweight. He is considered one of the five great captains, and is so respected by the whole world, even by the seanchan. I am convinced he is number five, and it is a sharp drop from four to five. He is only included because he is andoran, and Andor enjoys being number one or two at everything. Great steel, heaviest coins, most beautiful capital, largest population, most powerful...andor was created by the author to be the clear number 1. So they get a great captain too, fine. The number becomes five only because for whatever reason the author wants to give andor a great captain. Ituralde is brilliant, resourceful, clever. Niall is clever, resourceful (he got balwer after all), and disciplined. Agelmar is disciplined, dutiful, and inspiring. Bashere is clever, disciplined, and inspiring. Bryne is sh*t. He may be inspiring but only because of some placebo effect. The lying little schmuck allegedly served three queens, but that still really only leaves needing to hold against pathetic murandians and cairhienin squabbling amongst themselves. And a bit for the aiel, but ill bet the coward fought as little as possible, which was smart, but likely taught him little. He beats women, chuckles when he threatens to rape them, and is a dirty old man anyway. He hasn't accomplished sh*t except following siuan to salidar. Any competent man who was captain general for andor would have been named a great captain.

He is a world class douchebag, totally incompetent, and boring to boot. Reading a scene with him makes me want to attend a book burning. He could be balefired to the First Day and the pattern would be fine. I can't wait until he is crushed by Trollocs in some fortified village around tar valon because he is such a spiteful lazy a** he didn't bother to plan a borderland defense, even though he knew the borderland armies are out of position. I would love Taim to literally tear him a new one before explaining to the prick that he is an obsolete, pathetic, unemployed, accident of creation.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 04:19 AM
Perhaps it bears mentioning that someone did actually ask me why I hated the guy, I'm not just bashing out of the blue.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2011, 04:28 AM
Do you feel that maybe mat had it too easy?
Does siuan's sycophancy give you a headache?
Is rand getting more obnoxiously preachy by the day?I feel that you are sounding like Anne Robinson. You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

As to Bryne:
"For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." - Sun Tzu

Daekyras
06-21-2011, 04:43 AM
Strangely enough, this is one of the best disguised Egwene bashing threads I've ever seen.

good stuff unreasoner.

Although, on your main point, Bryne is not really any of the things you describe. But hey, all literature is up for interpretation. Otherwise, what's the point?

Jokeslayer
06-21-2011, 04:57 AM
This thread is like a trainwreck, except I can look away.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:02 AM
It's not intended to be a veiled Egwene bashing thread. Bryne still has plenty of enemies around. The ones not around weren't subdued by any action or inaction on his part.

Maybe my annoyance is more with Jordan for creating him so badly. Certainly I got a little Unreasonable in some of the attacks.

Maybe its my love for the underdog, but every time yet another thing is claimed as awesome for andor, I get a bit more pissed off.

When he had his talks with Gawyn and gave him advice, the word "douchebag" saturated my mind.

I dislike Egwene. I hate Bryne. And moghedien, but that's easy to explain-she's incompetent and I like nynaeve.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:05 AM
This thread is like a trainwreck, except I can look away.

Please do. I didn't want to write this at all, except that someone wondered why I hated Bryne so much, and I can't sleep from nicotine withdrawal.

I just quit smoking.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2011, 05:05 AM
When he had his talks with Gawyn and gave him advice, the word "douchebag" saturated my mind.And what did you think of Bryne in those scenes?

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:16 AM
...
Surely this is a joke, except I do not get it.
I must be the but of it lol
...

I thought he was a douchebag, speaking with such authority but just spewing common sense.

.......?
I must be the butt of it...

ChubbyAiel
06-21-2011, 05:38 AM
It's not an entire character that I find really annoying, but Rand's obsession about not harming women, even the really dangerous ones. I like Rand as a character as a whole, but I found the way he couldn't deal with Lanfear despite the danger she posed to Moiraine, Egwene and Aviendha a) sort of stupid and b) sort of misogynistic: I mean, are women not responsible for their actions in the same way that men are? I'm not advocating hitting women, but if one is bearing down on your friends and loved ones with murderous intent...

I'm sure that topic has been done to death but I still find it intensely irritating.

And I'm a fan of Egwene.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:41 AM
Bryne is a cesspit of vices, and if you think not wanting to hit women regardless of circumstances is one...well I'm sure he has it.

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 05:52 AM
He's not as bad as Valan Luca. As much as Felix loves Luca, I hate him.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:58 AM
But luca is what he seems- a greedy liar. Bryne pretends to be a dutiful guy but is three times as bad. I think it boils down to show, not tell. We were shown with luca, we were just told with Bryne.

Jokeslayer
06-21-2011, 06:10 AM
...
Surely this is a joke, except I do not get it.
I must be the but of it lol
...

I thought he was a douchebag, speaking with such authority but just spewing common sense.

.......?
I must be the butt of it...

The joke was that everyone else hates Gawyn. Your reaction to Gareth is what people would expect the reaction to Gawyn to be, so gonzo pretended to misunderstand.

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 06:36 AM
Any minute now Terez will come along and merge this into the Egwene-bashing thread. Not because she has no sense of humour, but because that is her sense of humour.

Daekyras
06-21-2011, 06:39 AM
The joke was that everyone else hates Gawyn. Your reaction to Gareth is what people would expect the reaction to Gawyn to be, so gonzo pretended to misunderstand.

You see children, THAT is how to live up to your username.

I salute you jokeslayer :) And also rep you!

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 06:53 AM
Any minute now Terez will come along and merge this into the Egwene-bashing thread. Not because she has no sense of humour, but because that is her sense of humour.

That wouldn't be very f**king funny. Egwene bashing is amusing when the offense takes it seriously, hilarious when the defense does. but it is simple entertainment. this is therapy

Are you British? (unrelated, I know)

ChubbyAiel
06-21-2011, 07:48 AM
... if you think not wanting to hit women regardless of circumstances is [a vice]...

Just to clarify, it would have to be in extreme circumstances, but that was exactly what Rand found himself in and he let those closest to him down in favour of a pyschopath. So while "vice" is not really the word, I would say he definitely did the wrong thing. I know at the time it was an on-the-spot decision, but even later he thinks to himself how he couldn't do things differently, and I think quite a lot was written about it from his POV. Idiot.

Davian93
06-21-2011, 07:56 AM
I thought he was a douchebag, speaking with such authority but just spewing common sense.



Most good advice is just common sense from a respected figure.

As to the rest...um, okay.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 08:32 AM
Something interesting...
Not a single Bryne fan among the posters. Surely failure to inspire respect and elicit liking from a single fan is all the condemnation we need.

Toss the dice
06-21-2011, 09:59 AM
I don't mind Bryne, he's a solid guy. I also had no problem with him spanking Siuan, even though I like her considerably more than I do him. She threw his boots at his head during the middle of a tantrum if I remember correctly. She clearly deserved it IMO.

That said, I agree with you on his "great captain" reputation, at least from what the reader sees. The man seems like he would be an excellent bannerman or minor commander, not a great general. Compared to Ituralde, Bashere, Agelmar and Niall - he's pretty unimpressive. He may have a lot of common sense and stolidness to him, but strategy and tactics doesn't seem to be his strong suit. To me, being brilliant and clever when it comes to strategy and tactics is an absolute REQUIREMENT for a "GREAT general." On-screen, those things are essentially non-existent in Bryne. I just can't seem him pulling off "advanced" battle strategy like those other guys can. Like I said, he would make a wonderful bannerman or under-officer.

Given roughly "equal" armies in a theoretical battle or war, I'm almost positive someone like Daerid or Talmanes would absolutely destroy Bryne, given their "standard" military backgrounds and a relatively short period of time under Mat. Let alone one of the other great captains or Lord Mat himself.

Davian93
06-21-2011, 10:46 AM
The other great captains respect Bryne...that alone makes me think he's earned his title as Great Captain. We simply have never gotten to see him do his thing on-screen. I think, if given the opportunity, he could have very easily taken Tar Valon but Egwene refused to allow him to invade. His scenes with Gawyn towards the end of ToM show that he is a very methodical, organized commander that is probably quite difficult to defeat as he simply doesn't leave anything to chance. In a way, his planning seemed quite similar to that of the Seanchan or even Ituralde's plans within plans within plans.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 12:58 PM
So he's the player who sets up two eyes in go before advancing, and by the time he strikes for new territory, all that is available is indefensible or immediately near his base? Sounds a lot like his "defense"of randland.

looqas
06-21-2011, 12:59 PM
To me Bryne also comes off a likable character. He does not develope that much during the series, but I find it good, because there is so many characters that seem to develope hugely.

I think Bryne is a solid general who can deliver when it counts. He does not come over as one pulling fancy moves like Mat or Ituralde, but he's the man that win wars and I would guess is very unlikely to be caught off guard or to make a costly mistake when trying something risky.

Crispin's Crispian
06-21-2011, 01:08 PM
You see children, THAT is how to live up to your username.

I salute you jokeslayer :) And also rep you!

Seconded. I'm so glad he got to it first. :D

Toss the dice
06-21-2011, 01:17 PM
I don't think taking Tar Valon would be all that impressive, considering Bryne's army was likely much larger than anything Tar Valon had. The White Tower was always the main "thing" in Tar Valon, rather than the actual city itself. And in the case of the siege, the rebel sisters would have been the main "force" if it came to a battle for the Tower.

Don't get me wrong, I think Bryne is a good commander. I just don't think he deserves the reputation of "great captain," specifically to be lumped in with the others. Again, this is from what I've read on-screen only. He is a very SEASONED military veteran with an obvious mastery of the basics, but I don't know if he has all that much experience when it comes to large-scale war on multiple fronts.

I disagree on the whole "plans within plans" thing. He seems more methodical, stolid and a common-sense guy when it comes to battle. Compare him to say Ituralde, who is very much the strategist, has a lot of experience in multiple cases of being the "mouse" and having to outwit his opponents. Trickery and gambles are commonly employed with him, and he has needed to employ them, to keep from being slaughtered.

Bashere is another general who is similar to Ituralde. Besides growing up learning how to fight Shadowspawn in the Borderlands, Bashere studied how the Light fought trollocs in the Trolloc Wars. He knows how they fought, essentially employing guerrilla tactics to fight an opponent that vastly outnumbered them. Agelmar seems to be very similar to Bashere, and Niall is clearly a clever general and strategist.

Bryne seems to be much more conventionally modern, which in this case is a bad thing. Call it a lack of opportunity if you want. He's simply never been the underdog, from what I can remember. More of a policeman cleaning up bandits and thieves, with the full support of the most powerful nation behind him.

ChubbyAiel
06-21-2011, 01:59 PM
Call it a lack of opportunity if you want. He's simply never been the underdog, from what I can remember. More of a policeman cleaning up bandits and thieves, with the full support of the most powerful nation behind him.

Maybe that's true of what we've seen on-screen, but there are hints to his past. Here's a quote from the BWB (page 236 in my edition, which isn't actually white):

Andor's success is also due in large part to the strength of her army, made up primarily of the Queen's Guard. For the last three reigns the heart and soul of the Guard has been one man, Captain-General Gareth Bryne, now retired. His leadership was largely responsible for keeping Andor strong despite continued pressure from outside sources. Andor has always been subject to pressure from the Children of the Light, possibly due to Andor's relationship with the White Tower, and Andor and Cairhien have been at war more times than any two nations except Tear and Illian.

So Bryne isn't just wielding the power of Andor, he helped make and maintain that power.

Also, while Cairhien has been a bit of a mess recently, it was strong under Laman, wasn't it?

And if Bryne has been around for the reigns of three queens, he would have been active during the Aiel War; he would have impressed people then. I think there might have been mention of that in the series, but I don't know where (maybe I'm wrong).

Davian93
06-21-2011, 02:01 PM
Bryne was clearly a big part of Morgase's victory during the Succession so that probably helped his reputation significantly.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:10 PM
The schmuck was promoted to captain general in the aiel war. And that bold bit is sort of exactly what I'm talking about. It reminds me of the ballad thom tweaked which praised this guys deeds without naming anything specific.

Bashere is one of my two favorite characters. He is a tricksy little bastard and as crazy as some ashaman.

Ituralde had some of my favorite scenes in the books, and he really raised the bar.

I really liked Niall's role too, sort of a dangerously competent villain for once.

Agelmar has a tried and true reputation guarding the blight and training the finest heavy cavalry in the world.

Bryne paid off a court bard to get his reputation.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:13 PM
Did he serve morgase from the get go? Seems like it would be odd for a man who served two previous queens (presumably from the same house) until morgase nabbed the house mantear.

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2011, 02:15 PM
Bryne paid off a court bard to get his reputation.Is that how Thom got away?

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:18 PM
Haha, I never thought of it. Probably not though, thom is quick on his feet and pretty clever. Bryne couldn't catch the idiot darkfriend from market sheran.

ChubbyAiel
06-21-2011, 02:24 PM
The schmuck was promoted to captain general in the aiel war. And that bold bit is sort of exactly what I'm talking about. It reminds me of the ballad thom tweaked which praised this guys deeds without naming anything specific.... Agelmar has a tried and true reputation guarding the blight and training the finest heavy cavalry in the world... Bryne paid off a court bard to get his reputation.

So let's hear the specifics about Agelmar. If Bryne protecting Andor from Whitecloaks and Cairhien doesn't cut the mustard, why does, "Agelmar has a tried and true reputation guarding the blight and training the finest heavy cavalry in the world"? Where are the specifics of the tactics he used? The specifics of battles won? Has Agelmar been bunging some court bard somewhere a few quid?

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:25 PM
Part of the fun of the series, a significant part, comes from playing Sherlock Holmes to solve the mysteries of the series. And then of course arguing until we are blue in the face about logic and what constitutes evidence. Does anyone else worry that once amol comes out, and worse, the encyclopaedia, the boards will die except for a few people debating things like the voice of less therin, and Felix constructing his all inclusive master opera theory of the true hero of the light?

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 02:28 PM
It's up to us to keep the fandom alive.

To do this, I propose that the identity of Asmo's killer be cycled every time a new printing of the series (or specifically TGS and TOM) is published. That way, we can keep playing "who killed Asmo" forever!

Terez
06-21-2011, 02:35 PM
Merge. Please do not start new threads for every random thought you have.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:36 PM
In all honesty agelmar seems like a number four. But as I gave Niall credit for maintaining a highly disciplined and effective force, so I give it to agelmar. And tarwins gap still holds, so he gets credit for that. You could point out that aringill still holds, and it does, but it is worth far fewer awesomeness points.
I think...
1. Ituralde/cauthon
2. Bashere/rhuarc
3. Niall/bael/galgan
4. talmanes/agelmar
5. Khirgan/tam
...
76. Weiramon
77. Joe Randlander
78. Mandarb
79. Bryne


He is just called at five to not offend the richest and most powerful nation in randland.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:38 PM
I sort of thought they were distinct and valid threads, but okay.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:40 PM
It's up to us to keep the fandom alive.

To do this, I propose that the identity of Asmo's killer be cycled every time a new printing of the series (or specifically TGS and TOM) is published. That way, we can keep playing "who killed Asmo" forever!

I actually think that would be a lot of fun. Whodunnit murder mystery parties...maybe even a cluedo-wot edition

Terez
06-21-2011, 02:41 PM
I sort of thought they were distinct and valid threads, but okay.
Maybe now you have a better idea of what constitutes 'thread-worthy'.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:45 PM
You know I actually really like that, I will try to make a flash game for it.
Scarlet becomes Aviendha, mustard for graendal, green for...green man?

Weapons could be balefire, saidin smothering, poison in the wine he sought...

Thoughts on this? Suggestions?

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:52 PM
Maybe now you have a better idea of what constitutes 'thread-worthy'.
Lol. Nope. But maybe if I listen, I can learn more.
,
I guess an ennui thread can wait until amol.

Weird Harold
06-21-2011, 03:37 PM
I think...
1. Ituralde/cauthon
2. Bashere/rhuarc
3. Niall/bael/galgan
4. talmanes/agelmar
5. Khirgan/tam


First, Mat, Rhuarc, Bael, Galgan, Talmanes, and Kirghan are really candidates for the Five Great Captains because that label covers the acknowledged -- i.e. well known -- military commanders of Randland at the beginning of the series. The new contenders didn't have the experience or reputation to be known as "Great Captains."

Second, being a "Great Captain" in the sense that it is used in the series has nothing to do with actual ability, only with public reputation.

Consider the contemporary public's opinion of George Meade in the civil war; he was considered a military genius and repeatedly given command of the Army of the Potomac based on that reputation -- and political patronage. OTOH, Most military historians consider him an uninspired REMF; very good at organization and training, but sorely lacking in iniative and aggression.

That is NOT to be considered a comparison of Gareth Bryne's abilities with George Meade's. His consistent urging of a military solution to the siege of Tar Valon is in direct contrast to George Meade's consistent begging for more troops and more time.

Whether Gareth Bryne is still one of the top five military commanders in Randland is questionable, but placing him dead last behhind Lan's horse is just stupid. His command style has a lot in common with Dwight Eisenhower and George Marshal -- not particularly brilliant, just effective.

Mat is clearly the best military commander in the WOT as of ToM. Bashere and Talmanes are probably the next best considering their knowledge and contributions to Mat's tactical innovations.

BG Furek Karede and BG Kirghan are probably the top prospects from the Seanchan, although nearly all of the Seanchan high command seem more flexible and adaptive than most of the Randland commanders; Ituralde, Bryne, and Bashere excepted.

Tam Al'thor is a somewhat special case. He outmaneuvered one of the acknowledged Great Captains in the Whitecloak Wars and could easily have advanced in Illian or Andoran service to gain the fame required to be acknowledged as a Great Captain but he chose to avoid the accolades and retired to the Two Rivers. In many ways, he probably repsonsible for Perrin's military success, but again avoids recognition for his contribution.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 03:53 PM
This scale, at least, is nothing more than my opinion. I acknowledge that perceived ability and actual are separate things. The top bit was serious, the bottom was my little joke.

Mandarb is way better than Joe Randlander

GonzoTheGreat
06-21-2011, 04:02 PM
Demandred probably ranks somewhere in the top region too.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 04:05 PM
Fair enough
Demandred,Mat, and Ituralde are at 1

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 04:07 PM
Maybe now you have a better idea of what constitutes 'thread-worthy'.

I'm afraid I have to agree with The Unreasoner. Discussing what the hell we're going to do after the series finishes is a distinct and seperate thing worthy of discussion.

Unreasoner - surely the differently colour folks have to represent different Ajah? Verin could be Mrs Peacock since she's neither black nor brown. And yes, I am British, thank you for asking. You?

Weird Harold
06-21-2011, 04:20 PM
Demandred probably ranks somewhere in the top region too.
Anyone who doesn't believe Demandred's the best can just ask him and he will set them straight. :D

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 04:21 PM
I'm an obnoxious American. SF bay area, specifically.
I always liked verin, kind of creepy but awesome. I don't see why she couldn't be brown, designing a new version would likely let me pick my own colors, and there is no need for a limit of suspects. Or she could be white like her soul, like the white tower itself. Hell, even tam could be a suspect, with his signature weapon- the Pattern Level Event.

And since the threads were merged, at least it is fitting that both Bryne and the end of the series are far worse than Egwene.

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 04:24 PM
The only thing worse than reading about Egwene is not reading about Egwene.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 04:28 PM
Love Oscar wilde.

Weiramon
06-21-2011, 05:15 PM
In all honesty agelmar seems like a number four. But as I gave Niall credit for maintaining a highly disciplined and effective force, so I give it to agelmar. And tarwins gap still holds, so he gets credit for that. You could point out that aringill still holds, and it does, but it is worth far fewer awesomeness points.
I think...
1. Ituralde/cauthon
2. Bashere/rhuarc
3. Niall/bael/galgan
4. talmanes/agelmar
5. Khirgan/tam
...
76. Weiramon
77. Joe Randlander
78. Mandarb
79. Bryne

He is just called at five to not offend the richest and most powerful nation in randland.

Burn my soul this is offensive!





Ranking commoners ahead of a warhorse! What flaming nonsense! As if mere peasants have anything approaching the worth of a fine steed!

Weiramon
06-21-2011, 05:19 PM
This scale, at least, is nothing more than my opinion. I acknowledge that perceived ability and actual are separate things. The top bit was serious, the bottom was my little joke.

Mandarb is way better than Joe Randlander

Apology accepted.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Haha. You are too much fun to risk in battle. Surely you would be number one, but the Lord Dragon is soft, and your cavalry is deadly enough that its use must be a war crime.

Davian93
06-21-2011, 06:13 PM
Wouldn't an integrated Rand/LTT be at the top as he was the best general in the AoL? He's probably forgotten more about tactics against the Shadow than Mat could ever learn even with his memories.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 06:39 PM
Last bit was a tad confusing, but if I get the gist...
0. Rand Sedai
1. Demandred/Cauthon/Ituralde
...and so on

Toss the dice
06-21-2011, 11:00 PM
I assume war during the War of the Shadow was incredibly different than war now. Technology was vastly different for one thing and channeling was a primary weapon when it came to battle. So even if it was possible that Lews Therin knew way more than the thousands of men that Mat's memories draw upon (a mathematical impossibility many times over), it's a moot statement anyway due to the incredible differences in war. Truly apples and oranges.

That said, I'm sure Lews Therin/Rand would be huge when it comes to knowledge fighting the Shadow with channelers. That would be his area of expertise, not Mat's. But I don't see how it's possible for Lews Therin to know more or be a better general than Mat when it comes to regular armies facing Shadowspawn. I would assume Mat is pretty much the best general that has ever lived or ever will live when it comes to Randland's current method of non-channeling war. What sort of credentials would you need to have better ones than him? How many more turnings of the Wheel would it take to hatch a crazy enough scenario to top his?

Madgod
06-21-2011, 11:11 PM
I may be wrong, but I always thought LTT was more of a "big picture" strategist. My understanding was that it was his job to say capture this city, but it was the job of some lesser commanders, such as Demandred, to actually plan how to do the capturing. In fact, one reason Demandred could be as jealous as he is is that he feels that LTT got the acclaim for various battles that Demandred actually planned out.
And as for Bryne, I can't understand why people would hate him. He's a tertiary character at best, way to minor to expend any vitriol towards him.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 11:26 PM
There is that. My goal wasn't really to rank the captains. This is more the death to Gareth Bryne/ keep the fandom alive thread.

Free churros with every tekka maki lmfao.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 11:36 PM
I think one key to a great captain is adaptability. Which I think Demandred has, if the meager evidence from looking good in modern fashion is any guide. Mat has shown this ability with dragons and roarsticks and nightflowers. Ituralde has effectively used ashaman and the weaknesses of raken.

Even if seventy five percent of mats memory is from battles, carefully selected battles, I doubt the experience will exceed a five hundred year old career general. Which, rand is not, but it seems possible for someone superior to eventually exist. If rand was a general for his entire lifespan, thing might be different.

sandoz12
06-22-2011, 12:18 AM
Whatever you are on - I want some:)

I never really thought anybody could vehemently hate Gareth Bryne - he seems so bland.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 12:25 AM
I think one key to a great captain is adaptability. Which I think Demandred has, if the meager evidence from looking good in modern fashion is any guide. Mat has shown this ability with dragons and roarsticks and nightflowers. Ituralde has effectively used ashaman and the weaknesses of raken.

You're correct that adaptability is a characteristic of the acknowledged Great Captains.

I think you're wrong about Demandred though. Not so much about his adaptability, but about his ability as a strategist or tactician. He's not hopeless, but he's not nearly as good as he thinks he is.

Even if seventy five percent of mats memory is from battles, carefully selected battles, I doubt the experience will exceed a five hundred year old career general.

LTT was not a general for over four hundred of those five hundred years. He had to practically invent the job from scratch and learn on the job over the last portion of his life. Most generals don't plan or fight more than a few major battles in their entire careers; LTT and Demandred probably fought more than any real world general, but still even one major battle a year would put either of them at about one-fifth as many as Mat has in his head -- IIRC, Mat characterizes the memories as "hundreds of men's lives and thousands of battles," OWTTE.

Neither Demandred nor LTT are unfamiliar with pre-gunpowder warfare and probably have more actual experience than Mat in artillery combat. The war of power caused a collapse of industry and infrastructure and weaponry regressed from Sea-Air-Land integrated warfare to Sword-and-buckler melee and calvary charges. LTT lived through and adapted through the entire decline.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:27 AM
Haha. I really dislike Bryne, but the op was written at the height of my nicotine withdrawal...so it's not so much what I'm on as what I'm off. I reread it today and cracked up at the pure fury I remembered feeling.

Of course his blandnesss is actually a big negative for me. But my favorite characters are all interesting, tovere, bashere, sorilea, verin, nynaeve, ituralde...

Any thoughts on part two of the thread, keeping the fandom alive? Suggestions for.the flash version of clue:asmodeon edition?

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Maybe Demandred isn't quite as good as he thinks he is, I'm not at liberty to say. I didn't really want to put either ltt or him on the makeshift scale. But I realize ltt saw a short career as a military leader- my point was a channeler's lifespan in a war torn age might yield a more experienced general than mat. Of course, he would still have to be able to learn from the experiences, and mat is very good at that, and in properly translating experience.

sandoz12
06-22-2011, 12:34 AM
Any thoughts on part two of the thread, keeping the fandom alive?

A MMORPG (Massive Multi-player Online Role-Playing Game)like World of Warcraft but set solely in the WoT and following a time cycle matching the series. You could have different servers at different points in the cycle to cater for new players.

A television series. I hope the WoT never gets made into a movie - it's just too complex to compress into a movie. Ideally each book would be one series. Except books 8-11 could probably be compressed into 2 series. But sadly I can't see a television channel committing to a 13 series fantasy show.

*Edit* Is anyone else having problems with pages intermittently taking forever to load on this site?

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 12:38 AM
Any thoughts on part two of the thread, keeping the fandom alive? Suggestions for.the flash version of clue:asmodeon edition?

Bela absolutely must be one of the suspects; Bela was the leading contender for years as more and more people got fed up with the "mystery."

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:38 AM
Neither can I...but something like heroes could work: large cast with multiple story arcs, juggling the focus and bringing the arcs together where necessary.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:41 AM
It's probably because all three of us are posting. Though i used to get logged off intermittently, so anything is possible.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 01:01 AM
my point was a channeler's lifespan in a war torn age might yield a more experienced general than mat.

A century or so of constant warfare would give a Channeling General more experience than any non-channeling general -- except for Mat. I forget just what the span of time Mat's memories cover, but it is something like five hundred years; or about five times the experience someone who lived through the entire century or so of the war of power. Mat's experiences are also based in the cumulative knowledge of 20-25 centuries of warfare instead of one century's worth of on-the-job training.

In terms of simple experience, Mat's memories give him the equivalent of multiple doctorates in Military Science and an unfair advantage over just about any possible opponent.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 01:06 AM
Solid point- mat's memories are the cream of the crop, and offer unparalleled perspective on each other. And mat is extremely able to make full use of them.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 01:12 AM
Bela absolutely must be one of the suspects; Bela was the leading contender for years as more and more people got fed up with the "mystery."

Bela, with balefire, in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 01:24 AM
Bela, with balefire, in Tel'aran'rhiod.
More like Bela with a Baler in the Barn. :D

ETA: Slayer with a Stickpin in the Stables should be a possibility, too.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 01:27 AM
Are there illustrations of the palace I can use?

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 01:32 AM
Are there illustrations of the palace I can use?
Not that I'm aware of. Certainly nothing canon from the books.

There might be some fan-art around, but I am on a dial-up connection and don't do graphic any more than absolutely necessary.

Frenzy
06-22-2011, 02:50 AM
Sounds like you have some father issues

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 03:34 AM
A television series. I hope the WoT never gets made into a movie - it's just too complex to compress into a movie. Ideally each book would be one series. Except books 8-11 could probably be compressed into 2 series. But sadly I can't see a television channel committing to a 13 series fantasy show.

13 (or 14) series would be a problem, but networks wouldn't have to commit to that number initially. Just like the books were originally intended to be a trilogy, you could start filming, see how the ratings go, then adapt the ending if necessary: e.g. have Rand really kill the Dark One at the Eye of the World, or in the sky over Falme, or at the Stone of Tear, or at least leave it ambiguous. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a realistic solution to making a start on filming a TV show.

Of course, after those first 3 books/series you'd stop having the possibility for suddenly ending it without it looking too incongruous. But maybe by then they'd have a better idea of viewing figures and know if the show was going to run. I could imagine that the network would still take it one series at a time and just give it the chop (maybe even mid-season) if it was losing viewers. American networks don't seem to have a problem doing that - look what Fox did to Firefly, the sods.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 04:00 AM
I forget just what the span of time Mat's memories cover, but it is something like five hundred years; or about five times the experience someone who lived through the entire century or so of the war of power.Actually, Mat's memories cover over a thousand years. The earliest one that we know of is from just before the Trolloc Wars (dancing with a Sea Folk ambassador) and the latest is from the end of Hawkwing's conquests (dying in a last stand fight).

sandoz12
06-22-2011, 04:00 AM
13 (or 14) series would be a problem, but networks wouldn't have to commit to that number initially. Just like the books were originally intended to be a trilogy, you could start filming, see how the ratings go, then adapt the ending if necessary: e.g. have Rand really kill the Dark One at the Eye of the World, or in the sky over Falme, or at the Stone of Tear, or at least leave it ambiguous. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a realistic solution to making a start on filming a TV show.

Of course, after those first 3 books/series you'd stop having the possibility for suddenly ending it without it looking too incongruous. But maybe by then they'd have a better idea of viewing figures and know if the show was going to run. I could imagine that the network would still take it one series at a time and just give it the chop (maybe even mid-season) if it was losing viewers. American networks don't seem to have a problem doing that - look what Fox did to Firefly, the sods.

Yeah that's right - they could give it a go and just kill it if ratings weren't sufficient. Which would be sad for fans but I would rather that than attempting to make it into a movie(s). And I do think not every book would need a whole series. You could probably cover it in 10 - 11 series I think.

Jokeslayer
06-22-2011, 06:30 AM
The biggest problem with a tv series is that it would take 4 or 5 times longer to film than the events are meant to cover. It's just not practical for most of the characters.

It's inevitable that the fandom is going to weaken (at least from the "lets argue about the books" side).

Terez
06-22-2011, 06:44 AM
Actually, Mat's memories cover over a thousand years. The earliest one that we know of is from just before the Trolloc Wars (dancing with a Sea Folk ambassador)
Actually, his earliest memories are from four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars (Maecine of Eharon).

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 07:43 AM
Actually, his earliest memories are from four or five hundred years before the Trolloc Wars (Maecine of Eharon).That would stretch the range over about 2,000 years (give or take a bit, depending on how long the Trolloc Wars lasted and such).

Davian93
06-22-2011, 08:50 AM
A century or so of constant warfare would give a Channeling General more experience than any non-channeling general -- except for Mat. I forget just what the span of time Mat's memories cover, but it is something like five hundred years; or about five times the experience someone who lived through the entire century or so of the war of power. Mat's experiences are also based in the cumulative knowledge of 20-25 centuries of warfare instead of one century's worth of on-the-job training.

In terms of simple experience, Mat's memories give him the equivalent of multiple doctorates in Military Science and an unfair advantage over just about any possible opponent.

LTT was the most brilliant man of his age...men like that dont come along all that often (typically once in a generation at best). Mat, as much as we all love him, is not that brilliant. Thus, there is an advantage there too. Mat might be very smart and even a military genius but LTT was the greatest man of his entire Age. That, along with his extensive experience in the AoL (400+ years of life) probably give him an edge. Also, any battle fought at this point will involve large numbers of channelers. Mat simply doesn't have the hands on experience to truly understand the possibilities of such a battle. He'd be quick to adapt but he'd never be the expert that Rand/LTT is. Conventional warfare is one thing, massive channeling in battle is another.

Terez
06-22-2011, 09:20 AM
That would stretch the range over about 2,000 years (give or take a bit, depending on how long the Trolloc Wars lasted and such).
Yeah, it's close to 2000 years. Between Mat, Rand, and Birgitte, they could put together a pretty impressive history.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 12:22 PM
LTT was the most brilliant man of his age...men like that dont come along all that often (typically once in a generation at best). Mat, as much as we all love him, is not that brilliant. Thus, there is an advantage there too. Mat might be very smart and even a military genius but LTT was the greatest man of his entire Age. That, along with his extensive experience in the AoL (400+ years of life) probably give him an edge. Also, any battle fought at this point will involve large numbers of channelers. Mat simply doesn't have the hands on experience to truly understand the possibilities of such a battle. He'd be quick to adapt but he'd never be the expert that Rand/LTT is. Conventional warfare is one thing, massive channeling in battle is another.

You have a Lews Therin blow-up doll in your bedroom don't you?

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 03:50 PM
LTT was the most brilliant man of his age...men like that dont come along all that often (typically once in a generation at best). Mat, as much as we all love him, is not that brilliant. Thus, there is an advantage there too. Mat might be very smart and even a military genius but LTT was the greatest man of his entire Age.

LTT was(is) a Polymath, good at everything. Mat is an Idiot Savant, absolutely brilliant at warfare.

Advantage Mat in that one field of endeavor.


Conventional warfare is one thing, massive channeling in battle is another.

Mat has spent almost the entire series scheming on ways to defeat channelers with or without channelers of his own. I would say he has already adapted.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 05:53 PM
I just dont see Mat as having the full understanding of what a real channeler could do. We saw what a truly trained channeler could do at Maradon. Rand is the only one who could really counter Moridin or Demandred if they are indeed right up there with Rand/LTT in channeling knowledge. Mat's knowledge is based on crude 3rd Age channelers and defeating leashed damane...its like asking a little league coach to suddenly manage against Casey Stengel.

Enigma
06-22-2011, 06:05 PM
Can the forsaken do what Rand did at Maradon? I was under the impression that we were seeing 'super Rand' at work not what a normal forskaken class channeler could do, at least not without angrea or sa'angrea.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 06:12 PM
This debate illustrates two key points in light of the purpose of this Join me in hating Gareth Bryne/ Keep the fandom alive thread...
1. There are way better generals than Bryne

2. A debate of military strategy and the merit of various captains will only get richer after the release of amol and the encyclopedia.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 06:30 PM
Can the forsaken do what Rand did at Maradon? I was under the impression that we were seeing 'super Rand' at work not what a normal forskaken class channeler could do, at least not without angrea or sa'angrea.

I dont think they can do what he's capable of obviously (I have my own theories on that that say he's the Creator's Avatar and all that) but there are far more advanced channeling weaves than Mat is aware of such as Deathgates, Blooms of Fire, etc...Mat has never been exposed to those and is likely ignorant of their existance.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 06:45 PM
I agree with Davian on this. While Mat may be as good as any non-channeler at having an idea how to fight channelers effectively (especially with non-channeling armies), I imagine his ability in this regard is very much lacking compared to someone like Rand/Lews Therin. The simple fact that Rand IS a channeler and because of this actually knows what weaves are possible, what weaves are common, who employs what, etc -- pretty much makes this a guarantee as it stands now.

Obviously, it would be preferred and fantastic if say the Light had a solid month to do nothing but prepare and plan for the Last Battle. Among many other things, Rand (and other channelers) could sit down for days at a time with Mat and fill him in with full detail and description exactly what weaves are both at the Light's disposal and what they are likely up against. Mat (along with other generals) could fully mesh channeling into their battle plans, to coordinate with the regular armies and everything as a whole.

Unless that happened (it won't), I have to give the nod to the channeling category to Rand. It will be interesting to see what planning the Light does though, regardless. It seems inevitable that there won't be a whole lot of planning, at least in terms of time. Kind of a shame, however necessary the urgency of striking quickly is.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 08:26 PM
1. There are way better generals than Bryne

Of course there are -- Now.

Were there when he was annointed one of the Five Great Captains?

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 08:38 PM
... there are far more advanced channeling weaves than Mat is aware of such as Deathgates, Blooms of Fire, etc...Mat has never been exposed to those and is likely ignorant of their existance.

One of Mat's memories is of the battle for aemon's field and the death-strike of Manatherin's queen. I imagine he has taken that scale of Channeling into account even if his battle plan for that level of channeling is "put your head between your legs and kiss your a$$ goodbye"

It isn't necessary to have a specific counter for every offensive weave. Scatter and fill the channeler(s) with crossbow bolts and cannonballs works for just about every mode of attack that can be countered by a non-channeling army. Run Away! works for anything else that is remotely surviveable.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 08:39 PM
I didn't say many better, I said way better, so sure: Ituralde, bashere, Niall.

And I doubt there was any real vote or anointing. The viewpoint of the masses. People probably thought "oh andor is rich and powerful, and they haven't ceded land to cairhien or murandy- their guy is in"

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 08:46 PM
And I think mat is smart enough to not assume too much about channelers. His general knowledge is enough to have a vague idea of what their strengths and weaknesses are.

Rand's knowledge is more specific in fighting someone who can leap out of thin air, invade dreams, compel followers, that sort of thing. Not that rand can't do the regular general thing, but his knowledge is of a different type of war, albeit one where mat might find himself at a steep disadvantage at first.

Kimon
06-22-2011, 08:51 PM
I didn't say many better, I said way better, so sure: Ituralde, bashere, Niall.

And I doubt there was any real vote or anointing. The viewpoint of the masses. People probably thought "oh andor is rich and powerful, and they haven't ceded land to cairhien or murandy- their guy is in"

You do realize that even Elaida was impressed enough with Bryne that while he was besieging Tar Valon she had a POV (KoD Ch 2) in which she planned to have Bryne replace Chubain as the Captain of the Tower Guard once the rebellion was ended, because she considered him so much more capable a commander than Chubain. She spent quite a bit of time in Andor, and thus would have much more than mere hearsay in evaluating him. Now mind you that does not mean that he is better than Ituralde or Bashere, but can we really say that he would not have done as well as them if given the chance? Sure he didn't storm Tar Valon, but then he wasn't given the option of attacking the city, so it is rather more difficult for us to evaluate his capability on the field than those men who have been given a freer hand in combat.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 08:59 PM
I can't argue that he wouldn't have done better given a chance. But I think Elaida is obsessed with image and the perception of power. So whether or not he is capable, Elaida likely made her judgement based on his inflated reputation, and not his achievements, at least subconsciously.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 09:14 PM
And the fact that Chubain sucks. :)

At least his reputation isn't always spectacular among the sisters, deserving or not.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 11:46 PM
Rand's knowledge is more specific in fighting someone who can leap out of thin air, ...

It took Mat about ten seconds to develop and implement an counter to attacks via gateway in the middle of a sleeping camp. He may not have considered the possibility without the assistance of a few dozen hostile Aiel, but the problem didn't faze him or take any time to adapt to when he became aware of the threat.

AFAIK, it isn't a precaution that Rand has implemented even with his many channeling minions who could detect the gateways before they open.

Weird Harold
06-22-2011, 11:53 PM
I can't argue that he wouldn't have done better given a chance. But I think Elaida is obsessed with image and the perception of power. So whether or not he is capable, Elaida likely made her judgement based on his inflated reputation, and not his achievements, at least subconsciously.

And the fact that Chubain sucks. :)

At least his reputation isn't always spectacular among the sisters, deserving or not.

Consider that even Chubain should have been able to hold Tar Valon, as others held it against a couple million Aiel or Artur Hawkwing at the height of his power. Whether they were judging falsly based on Bryne's reputation or not, there doesn't seem to have been any doubt that if Egwene turned him loose, Tar Valon would fall -- even before the harbors were blocked with cuendillar chains.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 11:56 PM
Mat might still be better. I should have said, if Rand has an advantage over Mat, it is in things mat has had no chance to learn about, for instance, he knows nothing (yet) on dreamspikes.

Although he may be able to find a way to take the black tower, dreamspike and ashaman manned guard towers aside.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 12:13 AM
Maybe I went a little overboard in the op. But Bryne is really such a dull character, and I honestly hated all of his scenes. But the books give us so many reasons to see him as a good guy, which pissed me off for some reason. I had this nauseating feeling I was being herded to like the guy, and I didn't.

I hate the character because he is boring without hope of being anything more, and I got this prick vibe coming off of him. And all of the things that could possibly make him less dull aren't fleshed out-they are almost caricatures. Every time someone went on about him being formidable or a great captain, I felt that nausea, like I was being herded towards some obvious conclusion.

Weird Harold
06-23-2011, 12:17 AM
... if Rand has an advantage over Mat, it is in things mat has had no chance to learn about, ...

There is a phenomenon sometimes called the Apprentice Effect; basically an Apprentice can often fix difficult problems because he isn't bound up by preconceptions.

Rand's knowledge of AOL tools and techniques might actually be a disadvantage in many situations.

Although he may be able to find a way to take the black tower, dreamspike and ashaman manned guard towers aside.

Mat should be able to take the Black Tower fairly easily, especially with Taim's minions in the guard towers -- since Taim disdains teaching his minions conventional tactics and physical combat (swords.) It would take the cannon to make it easy, but the BT isn't organized to defend against Mat's "shoot 'em in the back if you can" battle plans.

The Dreamspike in operation would actually be to Mat's advantage, since it would limit the Asha'man's mobility more than it would his. (Taim doesn't strike me as the type to give the key-code to Traveling inside the 'Spike to very many of his minions.)

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 12:23 AM
Yeah I thought of the apprentice effect you spoke of. And being unable to travel wouldn't hurt someone who has two thousand years' worth of memories also lacking them. Something I didn't think of before- he may remember dreadlords taking on the green ajah.

*edited to add
I really don't care who is better, my point was simply that Bryne sucks, and the semi serious scale was supposed to illustrate that. But then someone wanted Demandred and then another wanted rand so I put then in. I think mat is better than both, especially in the third age, but I don't know, and I enjoy the debate. I don't think rand will do much generalling though, so it may not matter.

sandoz12
06-23-2011, 12:53 AM
I wonder whether Sturgeon's law ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law) applies to Mat's memories? Or whether he only remembers the useful memories or was only filled with useful memories.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:19 AM
I think if it did, he wouldn't be a great general. But of course mat is lucky enough that the majority of his given memories might have been useful, and as many of the men whose memories mat shares entered the tog and at least made it to the center, there is a pretty solid method for winnowing out the morons.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 04:54 AM
Consider that even Chubain should have been able to hold Tar Valon, as others held it against a couple million Aiel or Artur Hawkwing at the height of his power.Nitpick one: the Aiel never ever tried to get into Tar Valon, so holding it against them was not quite as impressive a trick as you make it seem.
Nitpick two: Hawkwing directly threatened the lives of all AS, so they were free to use the OP to defend themselves, which means that they could unleash their full power on any attackers. Bryne, on the other hand, was under orders to try to avoid killing AS, as they were supposed to get a public spanking and then be forgiven.

greatwolf
06-23-2011, 09:30 AM
Its really difficult to say. I think generals are best assessed by results. LT got results. And he must have adapted really quickly to have become any good at war in the short period the actual war lasted (about 10years of actually fighting against the hundred years or so of social decay iirc)

LT also has the advantage being able to adapt to things done with the OP. Or any other type of channeling and special weapons. But in war there'll always be surprises and IMO the LB will have lots for the FoL. Will LT adapt so well to these? He has the advantage of knowing how to counter what is done with the power.

Mat might be able to adapt better with his memories. All those memories seem to be of men who were very versatile. And I think Mat must have encountered channeling in the field before. There were probably dreadlords and AS in the trolloc wars. And like Ituralde, once he knows what's been done, he can probably come up with a solution faster than Rand. (I think have a hundred men working on the problem has to beat a lone LT no matter how good he is.)


On Bryne though, I think the attack is thoroughly undeserved though I didn't particularly enjoy his scenes in TGS and ToM. A general's job is not to fight, its to win the battle he is set. In Bryne's case his task wasn't to take Tar Valon but to achieve reunification. He was ready to go in and likely could take the city itself if the AS did not get involved.

He was Andor's general. And he had to win his battles with Cairhein without crippling or even harming Andor's economy or else he didn't really win anything. That to me is the difference between a general and an officer. He got the results needed.

Rand al'Fain
06-23-2011, 09:34 AM
On Mat, FYI, he only has select memories from those men, nothing else. So it's just a bunch of experiences from a bunch of long dead men cumilated in Mat's head. 1 man, a bunch of different memories.

greatwolf
06-23-2011, 09:38 AM
Oh and it seems Taim will also be one of the shadow's generals alongside Demandred and Moridin. Moridin seems to think he has learnt Sammael's specialty (war) and with the experience of the trollocs wars, maybe he has. Time will tell though.

Taim has to be one if he defeated Bashere in a fair fight and if he's not Demandred or Moridin.

Another point: the seanchan generals might probably be better commanders than the RLers but they dont actually participate in OP decisions as such. Just point and let the suldam do their thing. Which is probably for the best.

Yet I cant help thinking channelers will prefer someone who can channel to one who cant. Perhaps Tuon will also come across as a great captain before its all done though her reasoning for launching the WT attack were a ittle sloppy I think.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:21 PM
On Mat, FYI, he only has select memories from those men, nothing else. So it's just a bunch of experiences from a bunch of long dead men cumilated in Mat's head. 1 man, a bunch of different memories.

Definitely. One mind-many memories. Multiple minds at work implies something like multiple CPUs instead of one really awesome hard drive.

On keeping the fandom alive- anyone care to post their favorite random funny scenes?

Mine...
Mat's thoughts on lemonade

Toveine noting that dogs seemed to see Aes Sedai as large cats

The wolves' ability to notice channelers compared to picking a white cow out of a lineup of dark ones, nothing impressive

Ltt laughing at rand when rand thinks that merchants are resistant to change

Regan's "i agree with everything you are saying but strongly doubt your wisdom in saying them" look.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:56 PM
And some herid fel scenes...

He lowers his voice 'conspiratorially' when talking to rand so the dragon reborn won't hear

"there is that", in response to rand describing the potential doom of the world.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 02:49 PM
Join the fun
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5663

Weird Harold
06-23-2011, 03:49 PM
I wonder whether Sturgeon's law ("http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law) applies to Mat's memories? Or whether he only remembers the useful memories or was only filled with useful memories.

I think if it did, he wouldn't be a great general. But of course mat is lucky enough that the majority of his given memories might have been useful, ...

On Mat, FYI, he only has select memories from those men, nothing else. So it's just a bunch of experiences from a bunch of long dead men cumilated in Mat's head. 1 man, a bunch of different memories.

Mat's memories weren't selected at random; not one of them. AFAWK, contained any information or clue about the ToG or *finn. Every memory thus far revealed has had some relevance to a Well-rounded military education. Even the dances and flirting memories relate to an officer's political and social duties -- learning how to be taken seriously by Nobility instead of acting like a rube from the sticks.

From the memories, known or alluded to, and the lack of useful information on the *finn/ToG, is seems fairly clear that Mat's memories were purposefully selected to fit his Destiny as "Son Of Battles" and provide him with an unparalleled Practical Military Education.

FelixPax
07-21-2011, 05:26 PM
I hate the character because he is boring without hope of being anything more, and I got this prick vibe coming off of him. And all of the things that could possibly make him less dull aren't fleshed out-they are almost caricatures. Every time someone went on about him being formidable or a great captain, I felt that nausea, like I was being herded towards some obvious conclusion.

What obvious conclusion are you being herded to, again?


Feeling an urge for Beslan's type of fun?


What’s the fun of kissing a woman without the risk she’ll decide to stick a knife in you?”

“Burn my soul,” Nalesean muttered into his beard. “It sounds as though I’ve dragged myself from bed for a dull morning.”

...

Mat glared at them. Maybe Beslan’s sort of fun was not what he needed. For one thing, he had more than enough of women with knives.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 38 "Six Stories" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Nalesean, Beslan heading to Rahad.


I suspect you'd be quite amused by what Gareth Bryne can do, to save the Tower... remember his Murandy scenes?


Olver was right (in ToM book), Matrim Cauthon is becoming prim.... Meanwhile at least Gareth Bryne has a sense of humor too.

Gareth Bryne and that big Illianer Warder came out of the back room first. In the watchful silence, she heard Bryne say, “Tell them an Ebou Dari tavern maid sent you, or they’ll put your head on a stake.”

The Illianer roared with laughter. “A dangerous city, Ebou Dar.” Pulling leather gauntlets from behind his sword belt, he stalked out into the street drawing them on.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 28 "Trapped" -- Min point of view; with Myrelle's warder Nuhel in Salidar.


Moving on what everyone really wants to know #&(&*#%&^*$&! "WoT Gossip & Rumors"!

Has Gareth Bryne's Traveler sown his wild oats with Siuan's Bela?

Too bad Traveler is a gelding... ;)

Charlz Guybon
08-17-2011, 06:57 AM
The schmuck was promoted to captain general in the aiel war. And that bold bit is sort of exactly what I'm talking about. It reminds me of the ballad thom tweaked which praised this guys deeds without naming anything specific.

Bashere is one of my two favorite characters. He is a tricksy little bastard and as crazy as some ashaman.

Ituralde had some of my favorite scenes in the books, and he really raised the bar.

I really liked Niall's role too, sort of a dangerously competent villain for once.

Agelmar has a tried and true reputation guarding the blight and training the finest heavy cavalry in the world.

Bryne paid off a court bard to get his reputation.

This is ridiculous. Bryne fought in the Aeil War and fought in the last Andoran succession. He's also fought border conflicts with the Murandians.

Ituralde fought in the Aeil War and some border skirmishes with Tarabon.

The Succession puts the heavier pre-Dragon combat experience in Bryne's corner. We just haven't had the opportunity to observe him in action like we have Ituralde. However, his prosecution of the siege of Tar Valon certainly was competent. We have no reason to believe he's a fraud.

Bryne seems to be based on Robert E. Lee. General for the rebels, bearded, rides a horse named Traveler. So I assume he has an offensive mindset and is willing to take risks and suffer heavy casualties.

Zombie Sammael
08-17-2011, 07:45 AM
This is ridiculous. Bryne fought in the Aeil War and fought in the last Andoran succession. He's also fought border conflicts with the Murandians.

Ituralde fought in the Aeil War and some border skirmishes with Tarabon.

The Succession puts the heavier pre-Dragon combat experience in Bryne's corner. We just haven't had the opportunity to observe him in action like we have Ituralde. However, his prosecution of the siege of Tar Valon certainly was competent. We have no reason to believe he's a fraud.

Bryne seems to be based on Robert E. Lee. General for the rebels, bearded, rides a horse named Traveler. So I assume he has an offensive mindset and is willing to take risks and suffer heavy casualties.

I would say that Ituralde's experience with border skirmishes with the organised, war-trained, constantly-fighting-against-Domani Taraboners is probably a little greater than Byrne's border skirmishes with ill-trained, disorganised, disloyal Murandians. Or Lugarders. Or whatever they're calling themselves this week. I don't think the Andoran succession really gives Bryne much more experience; it was probably only a little bloodier than the most recent conflicts in Andor. The siege of Tar Valon was hardly what you'd call successful, either - it was broken by a Seanchan attack on both parties.

The Unreasoner
08-17-2011, 07:53 AM
This is ridiculous.
Maybe. I sort of made Bryne into a symbol of all my frustrations with the series. I get annoyed that so many things are taken for granted, and that some favored entities just get so much falling into their laps. One easy example is Egwene, and many Aes Sedai just falling over themselves trying to give her respect or approval.

And Andor always annoyed me. They have the best capital, the heaviest coins, great mines, the best tabac... the list goes on. And they get a 'great' captain? Maybe it's some pet peeve of mine, but I got more and more annoyed that Bryne just got so much universal approval without really being vetted. An unusually large proportion of his role in the books seems to be simply the existence of his reputation. Over half of his scenes or mentions have no purpose other than to reiterate how awesome he is. As if we somehow forgot. It's practically mentioned as often as the 'Aes Sedai answers' bit. I mean, it comes across as some kind of wonderproduct ad spammed all over the internet. At least Egwene has (some) credentials to back up her reputation. Not that Bryne has none, but they are much rarer. I'd rather see him being competent than hear from yet another character how much they respect him or that they find him formidable. He is most likely perfectly competent, but no more. I often think of the following quote when I read a scene with a character talking about how awesome Bryne is:
Perhaps no one would think it too odd if a gleeman asked to perform a song for the Lord Dragon, a song especially composed. He knew a deservedly obscure Kandori tune, praising some unnamed lord for his greatness and courage in grandiose terms that never quite managed to name deeds or places. It had probably been bought by some lord who had no deeds worth naming.

WinespringBrother
08-17-2011, 09:18 AM
I would say that Ituralde's experience with border skirmishes with the organised, war-trained, constantly-fighting-against-Domani Taraboners is probably a little greater than Byrne's border skirmishes with ill-trained, disorganised, disloyal Murandians. Or Lugarders. Or whatever they're calling themselves this week. I don't think the Andoran succession really gives Bryne much more experience; it was probably only a little bloodier than the most recent conflicts in Andor. The siege of Tar Valon was hardly what you'd call successful, either - it was broken by a Seanchan attack on both parties.

But Bryne is good at Stones, that must mean he is an awesome General!

Enigma
08-18-2011, 03:51 PM
The seige of Tar Valon was a containment operation. Neither the Hall or Egwene wanted fighing in the streets of Tar Valon so to be fair to Byrne he achieved what he was tasked with - bottle up Tar Valon.

The only major operation we have seen him command is building an army and the seige. Building an army and commanding an army are two different things. George McClellan build the army of the Potomac but apparantly was not very handy using it.

Soldiers on both sides of the seige seemed to find no fault from the way Byrne organised things. Even the raids from the Younglings were countered. He did not set up a defence from the Seanchan attack but he had no experience or even knowledge that such an attack was possible.

As far as being good at stones that shows he has a tactical mind but Thom is good a stones but he's no general. It is a good sign however that he has a sharp tactical mind

Kimon
08-18-2011, 08:16 PM
Maybe. I sort of made Bryne into a symbol of all my frustrations with the series. I get annoyed that so many things are taken for granted, and that some favored entities just get so much falling into their laps. One easy example is Egwene, and many Aes Sedai just falling over themselves trying to give her respect or approval.

And Andor always annoyed me. They have the best capital, the heaviest coins, great mines, the best tabac... the list goes on. And they get a 'great' captain? Maybe it's some pet peeve of mine, but I got more and more annoyed that Bryne just got so much universal approval without really being vetted. An unusually large proportion of his role in the books seems to be simply the existence of his reputation. Over half of his scenes or mentions have no purpose other than to reiterate how awesome he is. As if we somehow forgot. It's practically mentioned as often as the 'Aes Sedai answers' bit. I mean, it comes across as some kind of wonderproduct ad spammed all over the internet. At least Egwene has (some) credentials to back up her reputation. Not that Bryne has none, but they are much rarer. I'd rather see him being competent than hear from yet another character how much they respect him or that they find him formidable. He is most likely perfectly competent, but no more. I often think of the following quote when I read a scene with a character talking about how awesome Bryne is:

The main problem with your premise, Unreasoner, is that you focus far too much on what you view as a lack of positive evidence of his worth as a first class field marshal, yet he has, up to this point, really only been asked to accomplish one task - to raise and train an army of considerable size. His capability in raising such a force seems beyond dispute, and no doubt was dependent, at least in part (The fact that his employer was a group of rebel Aes Sedai after all may have been either a net positive or negative, yet it seems more likely that there status as rebels would have made his task more rather than less difficult, and thus another sign of his prowess.), upon his reputation, yet his success seems a positive indication. Thus in terms of levying and logistics, his ability would seem, at least on the basis of the knowledge at our disposal, indisputable. What remains is his ability as a tactician and as a strategist. We have had little opportunity to judge him on this, since, while his siege was seeming well-coordinated, he was not allowed to actually make use of his army as more than a show force since his employer refused to allow him to actually lead his army against or to actually force battle against their then enemy. Yet, he has now provided Tar Valon with a considerably larger, and seemingly far better trained, organized, and led army than it previously had. The capability of this army, and its commander will now no doubt be seen, and thus we will be able to more accurately judge whether his place as one of the great captains is warranted once he, and his army, is loosed against a foe which, unlike their fellow sisters, the Aes Sedai actually wish, or at least need, to fight. You could thus be judged reasonable if you at present judged his status as a great captain as ambiguous, but judging him as deficient is at present quite clearly unreasonable, which given your moniker seems almost oddly fitting.

Charlz Guybon
08-19-2011, 07:03 AM
By the way do we have any idea how large the Loyalist Tower Guard was?

They contributed 12,000 men to fight the Aiel in the Aiel War so that's the floor. We know Alviran forced Elaida to order an increase to 50,000. This wasn't completed when the siege began. I'd guess they had maybe 20-30,000? So the Tower might have 70-80,000 soldiers at their disposal now?

GonzoTheGreat
08-19-2011, 07:56 AM
Some Tower Guards were sent over to the BT to hang Taim and friends. How many there were I don't remember, nor I remember what was done with them. They weren't killed, though.

Enigma
08-19-2011, 10:40 AM
Some Tower Guards were sent over to the BT to hang Taim and friends. How many there were I don't remember, nor I remember what was done with them. They weren't killed, though.

When was this? I recall Elayne organising patrols and going on one herself just to show that the BT was in Andor and subject to its laws. She admitted to herself that she could not force her way in and even if she set up a seige to the place they could bring in food and supplies via gateway and at best such an action would be an inconvenience to the Asha'men.

Sending ordinary guardsmen to try and hang a forsaken class channeler backed up with over a hundred lesser channelers.... that seems like a one way mission.

Charlz Guybon
08-19-2011, 10:42 AM
When was this? I recall Elayne organising patrols and going on one herself just to show that the BT was in Andor and subject to its laws. She admitted to herself that she could not force her way in and even if she set up a seige to the place they could bring in food and supplies via gateway and at best such an action would be an inconvenience to the Asha'men.

Sending ordinary guardsmen to try and hang a forsaken class channeler backed up with over a hundred lesser channelers.... that seems like a one way mission.

I think a couple of hundred guardsmen escorted the sisters that Elaida sent to attack the Black Tower.

Enigma
08-19-2011, 10:45 AM
Sorry I thought that there were Andoran guardsmen. There were Tower guards men with the Tower Sisters sent to assault the BT. The only scene we saw of the encounter had the Shielded sisters ordering the guards to attack to try and distract the Asha'man.

They could not charge very fast because of the snow and there were enought Asha'man to maintain the shields on the AS and capture easily any guardsmen. They were not seen again but the capture was organised and run by Logain who does not seem the sort to kill helpless prisoners. They are either prisoners at either the BT or some of Rand's other forces of they could have been lot loose to make their way back to Tar Valon. Without AS support they are not that dangerous to the BT.

Toss the dice
08-20-2011, 10:53 AM
I always assumed the Tower Guards were simply let loose.

Logain indeed isn't the sort to kill people he doesn't have to, and the Guards were no threat. He would have known there was a good chance they would be imprisoned or killed if brought back to Taim. Holding them for questioning would have been all but pointless, since the sisters were the ones with the answers and being bonded would be better than truth serum, at least if that was wanted, with the bond's obedience capabilities.

There simply was no legitimate reason to hold onto them. It would be like capturing a messenger boy that you know for a fact is completely unimportant, knows nothing, is incapable of garnering you ransom money, and would offer you no gain whatsoever.

I see Logain saying something like "Get out of here," and letting the Tower Guards go back the way they came.

GonzoTheGreat
08-20-2011, 11:21 AM
I see Logain saying something like "Get out of here," and letting the Tower Guards go back the way they came.If half of them decide not to return to the Tower where they would have to explain to Elaida why they'd returned without any AS, then there might be 500 or more new bandits roaming around Andor.
I'm not entirely sure that a former nobleman like Logain would overlook such an obvious issue, and I strongly suspect that Elayne wouldn't appreciate it.

David Selig
08-20-2011, 04:09 PM
There were only 200 Tower Guards sned on the mission to destroy the BT.

Given that most high nobles in Andor were gathering armies at the time, trained men like them would've easily found work without having to become bandits.

I am more curious about what happened with the Warders of the those 51 Aes Sedai. IIRC this was never mentioned.

The Unreasoner
08-20-2011, 07:21 PM
Of all the bizarre threads to make a comeback, I never expected it would be "Join Me in Hating Gareth Bryne/Keep the Fandom Alive". Of course, the discussion does seem to have devolved (evolved?) somewhat into a discussion of military specifics.

@Toss the dice: Have you become a spambot? What's with the sig?

@Kimon: I did choose my name for a purpose. And perhaps I judge characters' performance against their reputations.

@David Selig: I think in the CoT prologue there is a mention of the Warders' situation.

Toss the dice
08-20-2011, 09:35 PM
@Toss the dice: Have you become a spambot? What's with the sig?

Lol whoops. Awhile back I signed up for some survey site to see if making a little extra money on the side from it could be feasible. Suffice to say, I lasted about half an hour before chalking it up as a no-go. Thanks for reminding me to take the link down.

Toss the dice
08-20-2011, 09:55 PM
If half of them decide not to return to the Tower where they would have to explain to Elaida why they'd returned without any AS, then there might be 500 or more new bandits roaming around Andor.
I'm not entirely sure that a former nobleman like Logain would overlook such an obvious issue, and I strongly suspect that Elayne wouldn't appreciate it.

I don't see this being an issue. IMO Logain would likely focus on the Guards themselves and their situation with the BT. Due to his background as a minor noble, he very well may have thought about banditry, but if he did it probably took a backseat to the much more tangible (and important) problem of their interaction with the BT. Obviously the Guard posed zero threat towards the Black Tower, but I see even the possibility that they could come to harm as not sitting well with him.

Besides, a few hundred extra bandits are not even a drop of water in a bucket compared to everything else going on in the world. And I don't see Logain as caring what Elayne may think about the matter. Either way it wouldn't directly be the BT's fault.

Furthermore, what would Elayne do if she DID happen to have a problem with it? Turn him over her knee and spank him? Logain may be a fairly friendly "ally" to Elayne and the Crown of Andor, but it's not like anyone in the BT fears her disapproval. Especially not for a situation such as this one, one where they couldn't even be legitimately to blame.

Edit: I do agree that it is possible that Elayne could blame Logain/BT if the Tower Guard turned to banditry. That scenario would be very similar to Egwene blaming Rand for Logain and his men bonding Aes Sedai. Fortunately, Elayne isn't nearly as stupid as Egwene is. (there, I managed to wiggle in a little obligatory Egwene-bashing)

GonzoTheGreat
08-21-2011, 04:10 AM
Elaine could complain to Taim (blaming him for it), and Taim could use that as a pretext for going after Logain.

Of course, it isn't too likely that Elayne Sedai would admit to Taim that a bunch of Tower Guards were stealing chickens in her kingdom, but I'm not sure Logain is that aware of Tower politics. During his sojourn in Tar Valon he was a bit distracted. Or he seemed to be. Could've been an act, of course.

Charlz Guybon
08-21-2011, 07:10 AM
I just assumed they were killed.

Enigma
08-21-2011, 09:20 AM
Elaine could complain to Taim (blaming him for it), and Taim could use that as a pretext for going after Logain.[/i]

Its doubtful that Elaine would try that. If she goes to Taim and he ignores her, that dents her authority. Likewise if Taim goes after Logain because the local queen and an Aes Sedai told him to that's not too good for his authority either.

Dewairah
08-31-2011, 10:07 PM
thankyou for this thread Unreasoner. I havent laughed this hard in ages. I almost pee'd. :o

maacaroni
09-01-2011, 09:11 AM
Perhaps it bears mentioning that someone did actually ask me why I hated the guy, I'm not just bashing out of the blue.

Last time I bashed it out of the blue, I was seventeen and my mom caught me.

The Unreasoner
09-01-2011, 02:20 PM
thankyou for this thread Unreasoner. I havent laughed this hard in ages. I almost pee'd. :o

I aim to please.

@Terez
How/why was the OP edited? I'm looking and not noticing anything obvious, but I am curious.

FelixPax
09-01-2011, 07:39 PM
Are you feeling like a writer with a creative block of late?

He is a world class douchebag, totally incompetent, and boring to boot. Reading a scene with him makes me want to attend a book burning. He could be balefired to the First Day and the pattern would be fine.

Hmm... No.

He's only a scumbag leader of only of greatest mutinies ever. ;)

He's bagged one Amyrlin Seat by Oath, and a wife to be: Siuan.
He's gained a controlling Oath, from one young al'Thor mistresses: Min.
Earned a third an Oath without limitation from a hot young looking Domani. Oh, yes a Domani to boot. Leane.

Then was a force behind a hammer to remove Elaida from Office.


Who can out-wit, out-smart, out-bargain the White Tower?

Gareth Bryne.


Unlike three women, one Gareth Bryne knows how to put limitations of duration in his Oaths.

The Hall of Tower lacks control over its own army.

Next up?
Egwene al'Vere faces dissension and rebellions.

That's that for fun!

Terez
09-01-2011, 08:58 PM
@Terez
How/why was the OP edited? I'm looking and not noticing anything obvious, but I am curious.
I changed the thread title. Wanted to do that when you created it, but didn't get around it until recently.

The Unreasoner
09-02-2011, 02:10 PM
Ah. I did notice that, it just didn't occur to me that the title would be edited through the first post.

final death
02-15-2012, 10:57 PM
I would hate gareth bryne if he was anything but a minor character who will likely die before AMOL because of his inflated reputation. Not to mention the thousands or even tens of thousands that will probably die because of it.

GonzoTheGreat
02-16-2012, 04:13 AM
Bryne managed to keep an army running efficiently, despite having hundreds of AS meddling with it. That takes a lot of skill and capability.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 01:48 PM
That takes a lot of skill and capability.
Or a pinch of deus ex machina.

The Unreasoner
02-16-2012, 01:49 PM
I would hate gareth bryne...because of his inflated reputation.
Exactly.

Toss the dice
02-16-2012, 04:52 PM
Bryne always struck me as a very efficient and common-sense general. Not someone with great knowledge (at least relative to his reputation as a Great Captain) about advanced tactics and actual strategy, but very good at the rest of it.

To me, Bryne would be an outstanding under-General who is in command of a lot of troops and has no problem with any of the day-to-day type stuff, but isn't the overall general directing and commanding the army as a whole. For example, he would do quite well under Mat. He would be great at holding up his end of it as an under-general, from general discipline to making and breaking camp to training. But Mat would be the one directing the army as a whole, along with being in charge of battle plans, movements, etc.

The "Great Captains" all had their own styles and strengths. My impression of Bryne was that his strengths were efficiency, common sense, and not doing anything stupid - while having a "more than good enough" knowledge of basic and common strategies, the ones that most people consider common sense in the applicable situations. For example, Ituralde would be more of a trickster and employ advanced strategies that Bryne either wouldn't think of or would simply not do.

Pre-WoT, I think Bryne definitely deserved to be considered a Great Captain due to his above-average war knowledge, great efficiency, and common sense. If nothing else, because most everyone else was so terrible and unorganized. However, in a world that includes Mat Cauthon and the Seanchan, Bryne suddenly looks very much outdated. His efficiency and good-at-the-basics style no longer are enough to keep him in the top tier. That may set him apart when 99% of commanders are bumbling idiots, but it counts for little when the truly great generals do it out of hand and it's a given.

That said, I've never cared one way or the other about Bryne. Don't really like or dislike him.

eht slat meit
02-16-2012, 10:22 PM
I would hate gareth bryne if he was anything but a minor character who will likely die before AMOL because of his inflated reputation. Not to mention the thousands or even tens of thousands that will probably die because of it.

Personally, I find it interesting how little screentime consideration of that very fact gets - the Five Great Captains, I mean. Seems like they should be the very top of Rand's priority list, for several reasons, not the least of which is their reputation.

Gareth Bryne, for example, was immediately neutralized and retired by Rahvin.

Pedron Niall was murdered in a plot by his own men, with strong hints that SH 1.0 was involved in fostering the chaos the CoTL were embroiled in.

Agelmar Jagad hasn't been seen onscreen since TPoD.

Davram Bashere, for some reason, immediately broke oath and abandoned Tenobia's command to apprehend a false Dragon, and is arguably showing signs of Compulsion.

Rodel Ituralde previously had fallen conveniently into what could be considered a trap of doing the Forsaken's job for them... killing himself off by waging a losing war against the Seanchan.

Makes me go 'hmmmm' and wonder just exactly how much of that is Demandred's (and his allies Semirhage and Mesaana's) fingers a'working. Taking out the competition, so to speak.

Kimon
02-16-2012, 11:18 PM
Personally, I find it interesting how little screentime consideration of that very fact gets - the Five Great Captains, I mean. Seems like they should be the very top of Rand's priority list, for several reasons, not the least of which is their reputation.

Gareth Bryne, for example, was immediately neutralized and retired by Rahvin.

Pedron Niall was murdered in a plot by his own men, with strong hints that SH 1.0 was involved in fostering the chaos the CoTL were embroiled in.

Agelmar Jagad hasn't been seen onscreen since TPoD.

Davram Bashere, for some reason, immediately broke oath and abandoned Tenobia's command to apprehend a false Dragon, and is arguably showing signs of Compulsion.

Rodel Ituralde previously had fallen conveniently into what could be considered a trap of doing the Forsaken's job for them... killing himself off by waging a losing war against the Seanchan.

Makes me go 'hmmmm' and wonder just exactly how much of that is Demandred's (and his allies Semirhage and Mesaana's) fingers a'working. Taking out the competition, so to speak.

It's not as if he has been, nor is currently, lacking in skilled field marshals. Mat, who helped develop the battle-plan for the Battle of Caemlyn, and with barely more than a handful of men fought circles around the supposedly invincible Seanchan. Bashere, who developed (along with Rand himself) the strategy that stopped the Seanchan advance into Illian, doing so with a handful of Asha'man and a few thousand expendables of questionable loyalties who were literally used as cannon fodder. Ituralde, who managed to hold Saldaea just long enough (which considering what he was facing was quite an accomplishment) for Rand to swoop in and single-handedly go god-mode to save the day. Rhuarc and the other Aiel chieftains, who honestly are all likely at least on par with Bryne, and Rhuarc on par with all but Mat. Rhuarc (and the other Aiel) saved Cairhien from the Shaido, and then Rhuarc and Berelain did quite an admirable job administering Cairhien for him until Rand turned over the job to Dobraine after deposing Colavaere. He now has the Borlderlanders, which means he has Agelmar Jagad. Perrin and Logain perhaps also deserve mention. Perrin helped save him from Elaida's cronies, and then destroyed (with Seanchan help) the Shaido. An important task certainly. Logain helped organize opposition to Taim, and presumably will not merely be the one to defeat Taim, but clearly has other great things to come as well.

I honestly hope Demandred does something interesting, but at this point Rand's primary adversaries really still seem to be Taim and Egwene.

eht slat meit
02-16-2012, 11:46 PM
It's not as if he has been, nor is currently, lacking in skilled field marshals.

I honestly hope Demandred does something interesting, but at this point Rand's primary adversaries really still seem to be Taim and Egwene.

?
Padan Fain
Moridin w/ Lanfear, Graendal, Moghedien
Demandred and Demandred's armies
Slayer and the Hounds

Taim and the BA are kind of small potatoes in front of all that, and Egwene isn't doing anything that hasn't already been done by her predecessor a thousand years before.

Personally, I'm thinking that FoM is the next wave, and it's where all the pigeons come to roost.

First Wave: The Blight Siege
Second Wave: The Burning of Caemlyn
Third Wave: FoM Outbreak
Fourth Wave: Light v Dark

There's a lot of room in that for "interesting", like all the plots finally coming together. I find it hard to believe that the Forsaken would immediately forgotten all their skills of manipulation, tactical power and cunning to such a degree that they have absolutely -nothing- prepared for the final days. A few epic army battles, Rand vs the DO and that's it? That kinda sucks, and I hope there's more to offer.

Kimon
02-16-2012, 11:59 PM
?
Padan Fain
Moridin w/ Lanfear, Graendal, Moghedien
Demandred and Demandred's armies
Slayer and the Hounds

Taim and the BA are kind of small potatoes in front of all that, and Egwene isn't doing anything that hasn't already been done by her predecessor a thousand years before.



Mat will probably take care of Fain.

Perrin will take care of Slayer.

Graendal and Moghedien only seem to excel at staying inexplicably alive. Lanfear on the other hand is definitely laying a trap for Rand, so fair point on her.

As for Demandred - one of the great disappointments has been that he isn't Taim. It will be very difficult for him to even come close to doing anything in ToM that will match the accomplishments of the M'Hael. Though sacking Caemlyn would be a nice start.

As for Moridin and Egwene. I'm still holding out hope that Egwene goes ballistic after not getting her way at Merrilor, pulls a Demandred, and joins the Chosen out of spite because Rand gets to save the world instead of her. Then, if Moridin turns back to the Light, Egwene could become Nae'blis.

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 12:29 AM
how exactly is this thread still kicking?

Don't get me wrong: I'm thrilled, but it doesn't seem like the kind of thread that shouts 'bump me!' to people thumbing through the back catalogue.

Frankly, the level of discourse it would seem to generate is more suited to the Impulsive New Thread than the Intensive Forum-Search-And-Post.

Or, it could be the spirit of the other thread merged into it by Terez reaching out...

final death
02-17-2012, 02:00 PM
Gareth Bryne seems decent at logistics and managing troops but as far as we have seem, his level of skill when it comes to strategy and tactics may be even lower than High lord Wieramon.(sp?)Also every time i hear about him i do think about that song about the lord who did many great and nonspecific grandiose things. On another note i wonder who elayne and gawyne got their incredible lack of intelligence from. Probably both but it was a recessive gene so it wasn't super apparent in whats-his-face Damodred or Morgase. Elayne and gawyne both remind me of sterotypical supermodels, I.E. Supposed highly attractive yet really stupid at the same time. Also to answer your question unreasoner I've been following the thread and decided to post when it didn't seem like it was going anywhere.

Weiramon
02-17-2012, 04:21 PM
Aye, Bryne's so-called strategy and tactics beseiging the White Tower were completely deficient. Allowing himself to be constrained by not killing the opposing side's Aes Sedai, setting up a seige with a camp - ridiculous!

There are bridges - a charge could have been mounted immediately.

The Unreasoner
02-17-2012, 04:35 PM
Also to answer your question unreasoner I've been following the thread and decided to post when it didn't seem like it was going anywhere.
Ah. There was too much...coincidence in that last post for me to stomach. At least Terez won't set the IP Sniffers on me again.

suttree
02-17-2012, 04:56 PM
Aye, Bryne's so-called strategy and tactics beseiging the White Tower were completely deficient. Allowing himself to be constrained by not killing the opposing side's Aes Sedai, setting up a seige with a camp - ridiculous!

There are bridges - a charge could have been mounted immediately.

Ace.

final death
02-17-2012, 10:34 PM
Aye, Bryne's so-called strategy and tactics beseiging the White Tower were completely deficient. Allowing himself to be constrained by not killing the opposing side's Aes Sedai, setting up a seige with a camp - ridiculous!

There are bridges - a charge could have been mounted immediately.

Exactly Weiramon, at least that would have been entertaining. Not to mention that sieges are long term things which would put them in the realms of logistics and managing troops. It would also have been relatively easy to have someone like siuan to name eliada black ajah. Then they just have to gate to her study and shield or sever her. I mean if i'm going to read about the war on eliada i want to at least see some aes sedai die. Also you can't declare war on a single person, that is just a hit unless your Jackie Estacado. That way we may all one day experience the Final Death when the Day of the return comes. Unreasoner I rarely found the need to post since you often posted things close enough to my own thoughts i thought it unnecessary, not to mention that when ta'veren are involved there are no true coincidences

eht slat meit
02-17-2012, 10:55 PM
It would also have been relatively easy to have someone like siuan to name eliada black ajah.

Public relations disaster, acknowledging the existence of a hidden Ajah that has completely thwarted the efforts of the Tower to even recognize its existence, let alone stop it from taking over the Tower and breaking it right down the middle.

Not to mention, were word to ever get out that Siuan LIED about Elaida being Black Ajah...

Proving Whitecloak claims, once and for all, that the Aes Sedai are nothing but witches and Oathbreakers.

final death
02-18-2012, 12:12 AM
Public relations disaster, acknowledging the existence of a hidden Ajah that has completely thwarted the efforts of the Tower to even recognize its existence, let alone stop it from taking over the Tower and breaking it right down the middle.

Not to mention, were word to ever get out that Siuan LIED about Elaida being Black Ajah...

Proving Whitecloak claims, once and for all, that the Aes Sedai are nothing but witches and Oathbreakers.

Just as The Great Lord... i mean the dark one would want.:) Hey i like siuan as much as the next dark frie.. eh i mean next guy but I'm sure it would work out just fine and be as just as believable as egwenes ability to sap peoples intelligences as effectively if not more than a mind flayer. This isn't egwene bashing or hate it's just a documented ability that she has. Also as far as the saladar aes sedai know elaida could very well be a member of the black. Also almost everyone believes in the hidden ajah anyways they just don't say it to people who might get offended namely Aes Sedai. There are dark friends in all countries both high and low. It wouldn't make sense that being able to channel means you are made of superior moral fiber. In fact I would think that the one power like any other form of power corrupts, not to mention the other kinds of power at their disposal. So I would think that it would actually be kind of rare for channelers not to be dark friends or at least evil in other ways. There are exceptions though, people with superior moral fiber and a strong sense of right and wrong. People like the broken cha.. uh i mean the champion of light, Moirain Damodred, and Suian Sanche.:o Well im just glad that the world is in the capable hands of people like Egwene al'Vere, Rand al'Thor and Moridin.:rolleyes:

balefired
02-18-2012, 07:21 PM
Gareth Bryne always struck me as a kind of Grant general.

Grant was never necessarily a tactical genius, but he could effectively use his resources and understood how to defeat the enemy by denying them the ability to use their best resource, smart and creative battlefield tactics, by fighting a series of meatgrinder battles in which maneuver was extremely difficult.

Bryne, being from the strongest of nations in Randland, would not need to be a genius like Ituralde, all he would have to be is intelligent enough to force opponents in to a war of attrition.

Weiramon
02-18-2012, 08:49 PM
It wouldn't make sense that being able to channel means you are made of superior moral fiber. In fact I would think that the one power like any other form of power corrupts, not to mention the other kinds of power at their disposal. So I would think that it would actually be kind of rare for channelers not to be dark friends or at least evil in other ways. There are exceptions though, people with superior moral fiber and a strong sense of right

Burn my soul, that's preposterous!

Suggesting that power corrupts! No, what makes superior moral fibre is the position one is born into, by definition.

Power corrupting! If that were so, one would expect to see near a quarter of the White Tower gone over to the Shadow. Ridiculous!

final death
02-22-2012, 10:58 PM
Burn my soul, that's preposterous!

Suggesting that power corrupts! No, what makes superior moral fibre is the position one is born into, by definition.

Power corrupting! If that were so, one would expect to see near a quarter of the White Tower gone over to the Shadow. Ridiculous!

I'm pretty sure That is what happened in the tower but I'm saying it would make even more sense if 50% went to the shadow or even more. AOL's Aes Sedai remained grounded and used their power for the sole purpose of helping and serving others. Yet durring the collapse close to 50% turned to the shadow. 3rd age Aes Sedai on the other hand remain aloof and separate. They use their power as proof of their superiority and to manipulate thrones. Even when the outcome of their actions are positive it was used to boost their own power and ego.

The Unreasoner
02-22-2012, 11:12 PM
I'm pretty sure That is what happened in the tower but I'm saying it would make even more sense if 50% went to the shadow or even more. AOL's Aes Sedai remained grounded and used their power for the sole purpose of helping and serving others. Yet durring the collapse close to 50% turned to the shadow. 3rd age Aes Sedai on the other hand remain aloof and separate. They use their power as proof of their superiority and to manipulate thrones. Even when the outcome of their actions are positive it was used to boost their own power and ego.
~waits, with a Big Grin~

professorskar
02-23-2012, 12:03 AM
Mat will probably take care of Fain.


Just curious, what makes you think Mat will deal with Fain. The ruby dagger connection?

I'm pretty sure Fain will probably have a showdown with Rand. I think Fain will be instrumental in defeating the Dark One. His brand of evil and its effect on the DO's evil could very well be used to help seal the DO away again.