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Terez
06-21-2011, 07:15 AM
Old thread is here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4070). Had to close it because it was too huge. Any debates on Egwene's character will be merged here.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 07:29 AM
I think the haters will be far fewer and just more vocal. of course haters may be more compelled to vote, though the reverse is possible too. In the last thread, I was surprised there were as many Egwene haters as there were. I thought they were just a very vocal minority
I am fascinated so many are strongly in favor of her character, I thought surely she inspired indifference in the majority. I would love to hear their arguments (legitimate points).
Maybe multiple "axes" were necessary. Like intentions/hypocrite/competence/personality/ overall
For me... Good/yes/yes/negative/negative Actually a great score for a villain. If she were a bad guy the last would be positive. The forsaken have sh*t in the competence field. And I wouldn't care that her competence wasn't very believable if she rolled for the dark.
To give credit where credit is due... The cuendillar chain plan really was brilliant. And no chance her little general came up with it.
Seems a lot of the earlier posts show-
One can think she is a hypocrite with good intentions.
The emotion level is set by the defense.
Hate is a strong word, and few feel it here.
Liking the character and thinking she is a good person are two different things.
Many who like Egwene dislike nynaeve, and vice versa. A psychological indicator of something, perhaps?

Davian93
06-21-2011, 07:47 AM
To give credit where credit is due... The cuendillar chain plan really was brilliant.

Quite brilliant...right up to the point where she got herself captured and gave her enemy a huge hostage. And she was such a moron on actually executing the plan that she didnt even think to hide her weaves through inversion. I mean, how stupid is that?

yks 6nnetu hing
06-21-2011, 07:49 AM
Many who like Egwene dislike nynaeve, and vice versa. A psychological indicator of something, perhaps?

in my experience, it's more: everybody who's in love with Mat, hates Egwene. The stronger the love of Mat, the stronger the hate of Egwene. This might be because in a lot of ways Mat and Egwene are polar opposties. Where Egwene is responsible and conscientious, Mat is irresponsible and juvenile. Where Egwene plans and tries to solve (political) problems with diplomacy, Mat barges in and rolls the dice, consequences be damned. Where Egwene leaves her friends to fend for themselves (my way of interpreting this is that she trusts people to take care of themselves), Mat has this obsessive need to "rescue the maiden in distress". Where Egwene deliberately seeks out (emotional, educational, political and yes, even action-based) confrontation, Mat runs from it as much as possible. Where everything Egwene has had to learn the hard way, piece by painstaking piece, Mat got his information all in one go and where Egwene cherishes every bit of knowledge she's gained, Mat refuses to embrace his gift. There are, of course similarities also: they both can be hypocritical and judgmental, they're both curious and brave. The difference is that where Mat is funny, Egwene tends to be serious, and that's possibly what puts people off most.

I get this impression that every time that [teh awsumz] Mat interacts or thinks about Egwene, he does so in a negative or disparaging way. And vice versa. So, if one is a Mat-fan, they're likely to have the similar perception of Egwene as Mat does.

For me, Egwene is hands down my favourite character, followed by Min, then Perrin, then Moiraine, then Rand. however, I have a strong (and admittedly somewhat irrational) dislike of Mat.

jana
06-21-2011, 07:55 AM
in my experience, it's more: everybody who's in love with Mat

You're both full of it :P

I love Mat, Nynaeve, and Egwene and I think they should have a threesome.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 07:58 AM
I'm much more interested in how you regard nynaeve than mat. I like mat, but not very much.

And yeah, implementation sucked. But no one accused her of being the brains of the supergirls, a job better suited to nynaeve. And like I said, credit where credit is due. The bashing will have its chance.

Davian93
06-21-2011, 07:58 AM
You're both full of it :P

I love Mat, Nynaeve, and Egwene and I think they should have a threesome.

While Egwene the girl is in favor of a threesome, Egwene the Amyrlin is eternal and no mere girl interested in such silly things, blah blah blah...

Davian93
06-21-2011, 08:02 AM
I'm much more interested in how you regard nynaeve than mat. I like mat, but not very much.

And yeah, implementation sucked. But no one accused her of being the brains of the supergirls, a job better suited to nynaeve. And like I said, credit where credit is due. The bashing will have its chance.

The chain idea is a microcosm of everything that is wrong with Egwene as a person. She, in theory, comes up with a great idea to turn the chain into Cuendillar (nevermind that she physically tortured someone to learn how to make cuendillar and then passed it off as her own invention...that's another side point of her hypocrisy)...but she refuses all advice on implementation and then goes off on her own to do it instead of actually trusting anyone else to do it. At least Mat is smart enough to know not to lead from the front (as he's actually read Sun Tzu) but Egwene just has to be the big hero and do it all herself. Even Leane had the common sense to invert her weaves and was only caught due to betrayal. Egwene might as well have sailed into the Harbor with a giant bonfire going in the boat for all the precautions she took.

Zero execution ability on her part based on her complete lack of common sense, experience or any willingness to actually take advice. For all rights, she should have been executed on the spot but luckily for her, Elaida decided to play super-villain and put her enemy in an easily escapable situation instead of immediately killing her.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-21-2011, 08:06 AM
I'm much more interested in how you regard nynaeve than mat. I like mat, but not very much.

I have a neutral feeling for Nynaeve, more positive than negative though. I never really understood all the huffing that a lot of readers do about her tugging her braid and suchlike but I was also never that elated with her Big Feats (Bowl of Winds and breaking her block). Sure, they're awesome scenes but I just don't see them as so climatic as a lot of people seem to. The one that I did find awesome though, was her Healing Logain... but for the rest: meh.

Terez
06-21-2011, 08:11 AM
I thought the haters were far fewer and just more vocal.
Do you really think the old poll is invalidated by a couple of hours of voting in the new one? Really?

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 08:16 AM
Yeah, I'm a moron. Or I took a little of the last three posts I made, bits still relevant, bits still fresh, and reported them in a single post. It's easily fixed-I will do it now. Or, of course you could edit it to whatever.

sleepinghour
06-21-2011, 08:17 AM
I thought the haters were far fewer and just more vocal. of course haters may be more compelled to vote, though the reverse is possible too.

It depends on where you go—the impression I get is that Dragonmount and RAFO have more Egwene haters, while Theoryland and Tor's discussion threads (the Leigh Butler reread) have more Egwene fans.

But it's hard to say when most people are lurkers and many are reluctant to post an opposing view if they think they are in minority. Which can be said of pretty much all opinions, not just Egwene hate/love.

Many who like Egwene dislike nynaeve, and vice versa. A psychological indicator of something, perhaps?
I think one reason many Nynaeve fans dislike Egwene is because of how she treats Nynaeve (the T'A'R episode in FoH, the testing in FoM). And some people resent that Egwene is getting a ridiculous amount of praise in the books while Nynaeve's still treated like a red-headed stepchild by the Aes Sedai. Some Egwene fans also seem to resent Nynaeve for getting so much love from fans over at Dragonmount while Egwene gets so much hate.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 08:25 AM
Ha. I'm a nynaeve fan. And Egwene's treatment of nynaeve was a major pulling point for me.

Of course there could be some kind of bizarre older/younger sister thing motivating some one way or the other.

Zombie Sammael
06-21-2011, 10:31 AM
Not contributing in any way to the discussion, but I really think this ought to be pinned. There is every chance that in a week or two we will all get bored of talking about Egwene and the thread will drift away like the last one did for a bit. All it then takes is one noob to start a new "I don't like Egwene" thread and we're back in the mess we were before. The thread title is neutral enough that we won't appear to be backing up either the pro- or anti-Egwene camps.

Davian93
06-21-2011, 10:35 AM
This thread tasks me...it tasks me and I shall have it!!!

Crispin's Crispian
06-21-2011, 01:00 PM
I don't really care one way or the other for her. She annoys me about as much as Mat annoys me.

That said, if she hadn't let herself get captured at the Chaining, things might have gone rather differently. She was able (and confident in her ability) to turn the Tower from the inside, which was probably far more effective than sending a bunch of traitorous negotiators. ;)

But I'm sure she didn't think that far ahead. She can't be that smart, right?

Terez
06-21-2011, 01:27 PM
Not contributing in any way to the discussion, but I really think this ought to be pinned. There is every chance that in a week or two we will all get bored of talking about Egwene and the thread will drift away like the last one did for a bit. All it then takes is one noob to start a new "I don't like Egwene" thread and we're back in the mess we were before. The thread title is neutral enough that we won't appear to be backing up either the pro- or anti-Egwene camps.
I will try to take care of them quickly so that there is little confusion. This thread is definitely not getting pinned. The rules are pinned; the thread is linked therein.

jana
06-21-2011, 01:46 PM
RAFO doesn't have more Egwene haters, it just has the most insane ones.

The Unreasoner
06-21-2011, 02:00 PM
Well, we all know insane men are hard to count, I tried with Felix and got at least two every time, and once got up to 300000000, but he was doing his Hindu incarnations trick. And I would be very sad if this thread gets stuckied. Questions for threadmasters, questions for team Jordan, and the rule thread for pranks.

frenchie
06-21-2011, 02:50 PM
RAFO doesn't have more Egwene haters, it just has the most insane ones.

Now now, leave Cannoli and Lilitempest out of this.

Madgod
06-21-2011, 11:20 PM
I personally don't mind Egwene. She isn't one of my favorite characters, but then again my absolute favorite is sufficiently off the beaten path that any of my opinions on the matter might be able to be disregarded.
One thing I would be interested in is seeing how people's age affects the way they view Egwene. I am about her "age", and, since some of my friends are similar personality-wise to her, I tend to be more forgiving towards her due to me imagining what I or my friends would be doing in her situation. However, I am willing to bet that someone a little older would be more inclined to view her as immature/childish, which people my age are, and so be more disapproving.

Rand al'Fain
06-22-2011, 02:48 AM
I personally don't mind Egwene. She isn't one of my favorite characters, but then again my absolute favorite is sufficiently off the beaten path that any of my opinions on the matter might be able to be disregarded.
One thing I would be interested in is seeing how people's age affects the way they view Egwene. I am about her "age", and, since some of my friends are similar personality-wise to her, I tend to be more forgiving towards her due to me imagining what I or my friends would be doing in her situation. However, I am willing to bet that someone a little older would be more inclined to view her as immature/childish, which people my age are, and so be more disapproving.
Nope, even the first time I read TEotW, when I was about 16-17 years old, I still thought of her as I do now. Now, I'll be 22 in about 3 weeks, and with the new books since TEotW, my opinion has been reinforced on her. Let's just say she's a bit too high and mighty from the get-go for me right off the bat. And it only gets worse from there on out.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 03:49 AM
My objection to Egwene can be summed up fairly easily:
I would not want her as a friend.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 04:06 AM
IOne thing I would be interested in is seeing how people's age affects the way they view Egwene. I am about her "age", and, since some of my friends are similar personality-wise to her, I tend to be more forgiving towards her due to me imagining what I or my friends would be doing in her situation. However, I am willing to bet that someone a little older would be more inclined to view her as immature/childish, which people my age are, and so be more disapproving.

I'm 28 and I see her as someone who truly believes in herself despite her young age. That's exactly what you want in someone in her position of power - the will to act, not to seek the permission of those who are looking at you to lead in a time of crisis. She's shrewd enough to see that some of those who don't look to her don't have any better ideas and would just mire the Tower in endless in-fighting or debating at a time when the Tower needs decisive leadership, and she is the person to offer that. She's a lot like Rand in that regard - both are getting on with the job because they are the best equipped to act.

I'll take an example of something that's she's often criticesed for but that I see as a positive thing: She's accommodating and wise enough to know that the Tower can learn from other channeller traditions, and other traditions from the Tower, while being realistic and determined enough to know that in the coming days all channellers will need strong central leadership, not endless dithering by committee. Hence she is trying to manoeuvre the Tower into a position of power over the other channellers - that's exactly the right thing to do if she wants to avoid an impotent League of Nations of Channellers.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 04:09 AM
However, she should also know that until the LB has come and gone, the only actual possibility for an accepted central leader of everyone (whether channeler or not) is the Dragon Reborn, and she has no intention at all of letting him be the leader, as that would require her to submit to his authority.

Spidy
06-22-2011, 04:18 AM
An eternal threesome sounds like a good deal.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 04:18 AM
However, she should also know that until the LB has come and gone, the only actual possibility for an accepted central leader of everyone (whether channeler or not) is the Dragon Reborn, and she has no intention at all of letting him be the leader, as that would require her to submit to his authority.

Perhaps she still thinks he's brooding darkly? How can she know he's had this epiphany that seems to have soothed his soul? Even if she did know, would it be so silly to think it was, in effect, just another phase of madness? Maybe she's right and Rand is wrong, and we readers are wrong, and now is not the best time to break the seals, if at all? Nynaeve has seen the depth of the madness taint on Rand's mind that still remains even post-epiphany. Just because she disagrees with Rand's plan doesn't make her an idiot or a bad person.

It's quite possible that she would submit to his authority if she could trust him, but right now she can't. She isn't aware of how much he has improved and, even if she was, Rand is still capable of mistakes in his current state.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 06:23 AM
Rand is capable of making mistakes, yes. Every leader is.

However, if the prophecies are correct, then no leader apart from Rand has any chance at all of preventing the DO from breaking out.
So Egwene has two options:
1. Accept Rand as leader and hope he'll do well enough.
2. Do not accept Rand as leader and accept the consequence: a victory for the Shadow.

None of her ruminations suggests that she has ever actually thought it through to its actual consequences, but so far she is firmly opting for option 2.

If she decides that she really truly can not trust Rand, then she should kill herself. The Amayar did that. Egwene acts as though the Prophecies are false, while at the same time claiming that she believes in them.

Terez
06-22-2011, 06:48 AM
Rand is capable of making mistakes, yes. Every leader is.

However, if the prophecies are correct, then no leader apart from Rand has any chance at all of preventing the DO from breaking out.
So Egwene has two options:
1. Accept Rand as leader and hope he'll do well enough.
2. Do not accept Rand as leader and accept the consequence: a victory for the Shadow.
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, especially seeing as how it's looking like Rand will have to die before he has a chance of being successful against the Shadow. The Wheel put Egwene on the Seat for a reason; her history with Rand is an obvious reason, but her very stubbornness might be key.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 07:46 AM
That's a bit of a false dichotomy, especially seeing as how it's looking like Rand will have to die before he has a chance of being successful against the Shadow. The Wheel put Egwene on the Seat for a reason; her history with Rand is an obvious reason, but her very stubbornness might be key.Still, if not Rand, then why not Fortuona?
She is a more logical choice for CiC than either of the Amyrlins. And why not Elaida instead of Egwene, for that matter?
Or, if you're not willing to give the position to the Dragon Reborn, why not give it to the leader of the most powerful army (the Aiel). The chief of all clan chiefs seems as good a candidate for over all commander as any.

Any other alternatives, or any reason why Egwene would be better than the ones I've mentioned already?

DahLliA
06-22-2011, 08:13 AM
my Egwene-opinion:

pre getting captured by Elaida: meh
prisoner-Egwene: pretty awesome
proper Amyrlin-Egwene: stuck-up, hypocritical <insert nasty word of your choice>

I mean. she was always stubborn and borderline stupid, but I could forgive that. and then she turned damn awesome while being a prisoner.

then she just ups and goes "I'm the only person who can do anything right and I'll save the world. no way in hell the actual guy destined to save the world would know anything. no one can be smarter or know more than the Amyrlin, etc..."

she's basically a slightly more political version of Elaida at this point.

Terez
06-22-2011, 09:24 AM
Rand didn't really bother to explain to her why he thought it a good idea to break the seals, and he even said he had no plan for what to do after. What sane person would not question that? And what's up with this attitude that Rand has some sort of absolute authority on how the Last Battle should go down? It's silly.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 09:46 AM
Rand is capable of making mistakes, yes. Every leader is.

However, if the prophecies are correct, then no leader apart from Rand has any chance at all of preventing the DO from breaking out.
So Egwene has two options:
1. Accept Rand as leader and hope he'll do well enough.
2. Do not accept Rand as leader and accept the consequence: a victory for the Shadow.

Or 3. Accept that Rand is the one that will hopefully face the Dark One and hopefully win, but guide him as much as you can so that he doesn't make mistakes that will take away his chance of victory, or that will mean he wins only a Pyrrhic victory.

You admit that Rand is capable of making mistakes then you condemn Egwene for quite sensibly wanting to mitigate against those mistakes.

Still, if not Rand, then why not Fortuona?

Surely you can answer that question for yourself? You don't think Egwene is a better choice than someone whose culture and hierarchy has absolutely no regard for the human rights of a minority group? You really think Egwene is that bad? I'd say your rhetoric has steam-rollered your common sense ;)

And why not Elaida instead of Egwene, for that matter?

Again, Elaida did nothing but alienate people. Egwene has proved herself a strong Amyrlin to the people of Randland (though not Gonzo) and she is building bridges rather than burning them left right and centre. You might not like Egwene, but you're reading a different series from the rest of us if you think Elaida was actually a better Amyrlin.

Or, if you're not willing to give the position to the Dragon Reborn, why not give it to the leader of the most powerful army (the Aiel). The chief of all clan chiefs seems as good a candidate for over all commander as any.

Unless you believe him to be an insane liability who is making mistakes, the consequences of which will have to be endured by everyone else when he dies.

...any reason why Egwene would be better than the ones I've mentioned already?

So yes, very obvious reasons that Egwene is a better choice than Tuon or Elaida, reasons with which I'm sure you'd agree. As for Rand, I don't think she would make a better job of it than Rand but from her perspective, I can see why she is so wary of him and she is taking steps to rectify the problems she sees, rather than burying her head in the sand.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Or 3. Accept that Rand is the one that will hopefully face the Dark One and hopefully win, but guide him as much as you can so that he doesn't make mistakes that will take away his chance of victory, or that will mean he wins only a Pyrrhic victory.

You admit that Rand is capable of making mistakes then you condemn Egwene for quite sensibly wanting to mitigate against those mistakes.Close, but no cigar.

I condemn her for trying to use the method which she has seen (a lot of it from really close up) does not work with Rand. She knows it will not work on him. That is why she was not worried over the possibility of Elaida gaining a hold on him. So what sane reason could she possibly have for now trying to use the very same method?
She knows time is exceedingly limited, no matter what. She should not be wasting that time on failure, unless that is what she wants for the WT. Since she apparently does not want the WT to fail, another approach would be warranted. But that is not coming.

Surely you can answer that question for yourself? You don't think Egwene is a better choice than someone whose culture and hierarchy has absolutely no regard for the human rights of a minority group? You really think Egwene is that bad? I'd say your rhetoric has steam-rollered your common sense ;)I would say that Tuon would be very bad for the aftermath. I am not at all sure that there is any reason at all to think she would do worse in the short time until Tarmon Gai'don, and quite a lot of reason to think she might do better.

Contrast the parts of the world which have been under Egwene's control with those that have been under Tuon's rule.
Salidar, which for a long time was Egwene's stronghold, was avoided by most who did not want to join up in an army (either Egwene's or the Band). In contrast, Tuon's areas are so peaceful that the Tinkers are actually flocking to the cities.

Egwene has a "Battle Ajah" which rather badly failed in their first test for over a thousand years, and two armies that may very well come to blows with each other right on the eve of TG. In contrast, Tuon's channelers did very well against anyone but a hugely strengthened ex-damane, and her forces are in general well led and united.

Egwene rules a town, an army camp outside it, a couple of villages, and those AS who don't have anything better (in their own opinion, of course) to do. Tuon, on the other hand, is the undisputed ruler of the largest area in Randland (now that Rand has ceded Andor and Cairhien to Elayne), and she can actually expect to be obeyed when she gives an order.

Egwene actually even gave prosecution of the war to the Hall, so she could not even accept the leadership without reneging on that agreement. Or re-negotiating it, which might take a while.

Again, Elaida did nothing but alienate people. Egwene has proved herself a strong Amyrlin to the people of Randland (though not Gonzo) and she is building bridges rather than burning them left right and centre. You might not like Egwene, but you're reading a different series from the rest of us if you think Elaida was actually a better Amyrlin.I don't think Elaida was better.

I do think Siuan would have been better, and would even now be better than Egwene, if the latter stepped down to let a competent adult handle things.

Unless you believe him to be an insane liability who is making mistakes, the consequences of which will have to be endured by everyone else when he dies.That's what the Borderlanders tested.
If Egwene also thinks this, then she should kill Rand. But she has not even considered this, and during her Accepted test she rejected that option even though in that case she was given good reasons for it.

As for Rand, I don't think she would make a better job of it than Rand but from her perspective, I can see why she is so wary of him and she is taking steps to rectify the problems she sees, rather than burying her head in the sand.How isn't she burying her head in the sand? She is continuing a policy which she knows very well will not work, thus knowingly getting no results at all.

If she would really want to do something about the actual problem, then she should have send out scouting parties to figure out what all the various forces were doing, instead of assuming that if it were important, someone would inform her, so what she did not hear could not be relevant.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 10:47 AM
Rand didn't really bother to explain to her why he thought it a good idea to break the seals, and he even said he had no plan for what to do after. What sane person would not question that? And what's up with this attitude that Rand has some sort of absolute authority on how the Last Battle should go down? It's silly.

Well, for one, Breaking the Seals doesnt free the DO as Egwene seems to think...it just brings them back to the same situation as the time of The Strike. Egwene, the Watcher of Said Seals, should at least have a basic understanding of that.

Also, why is it silly to think that the chosen one and reborn Leader of the Light be in charge of the Last Battle? Its kinda his prophecized role in all this.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 10:54 AM
Close, but no cigar.

I condemn her for trying to use the method which she has seen (a lot of it from really close up) does not work with Rand. She knows it will not work on him. That is why she was not worried over the possibility of Elaida gaining a hold on him. So what sane reason could she possibly have for now trying to use the very same method?
She knows time is exceedingly limited, no matter what. She should not be wasting that time on failure, unless that is what she wants for the WT. Since she apparently does not want the WT to fail, another approach would be warranted. But that is not coming.

What else can she do, but oppose him if he won't listen? If she sees no alternative she has a choice between action and inaction. If she thought Rand was making a mistake and she didn't try to oppose that mistake she would be weak and an ineffectual leader. Then she might as well step aside for someone who was willing to act, like... er... herself.


I would say that Tuon would be very bad for the aftermath. I am not at all sure that there is any reason at all to think she would do worse in the short time until Tarmon Gai'don, and quite a lot of reason to think she might do better.

Firstly, would the Seanchan co-operate with Aes Sedai even in the short term? They've already rejected the Dragon and they've attacked the Aes Sedai knowing the Last Battle is coming. The forces of "Light" under Tuon would be as divided as they are now. Further, you'd be allying yourself with something you knew to be evil when you, as Egwene, would believe you would stand a better chance with your leadership. Egwene would see it as defeating evil with another type of evil. Lastly, if you put all your forces under Tuon you might struggle to get them back under your banner when it comes to the aftermath, especially if they've been hoovering up channellers for their leashes in the meantime. And then where will the White Tower be?

Contrast the parts of the world which have been under Egwene's control with those that have been under Tuon's rule.
Salidar, which for a long time was Egwene's stronghold, was avoided by most who did not want to join up in an army (either Egwene's or the Band). In contrast, Tuon's areas are so peaceful that the Tinkers are actually flocking to the cities.

But at what cost? Slavery? Degradation of chanellers to the extent they aren't seen as human? It's like saying as long as Mussolini made the trains run on time and Hitler built decent Autobahns, all is forgiven.

Egwene has a "Battle Ajah" which rather badly failed in their first test for over a thousand years, and two armies that may very well come to blows with each other right on the eve of TG. In contrast, Tuon's channelers did very well against anyone but a hugely strengthened ex-damane, and her forces are in general well led and united.

Surely there are plenty of examples in the Wheel of Time, like Aridhol and the damane themselves to show us that the end does not justify the means. So what if Tuon's forces did well - what's the bigger picture, what's the greater cost?

I do think Siuan would have been better, and would even now be better than Egwene, if the latter stepped down to let a competent adult handle things.

And you think any of the Aes Sedai would have accepted Siuan as their leader since the split of the Tower? Hasn't the answer to that been explicitly "no" in a number of passages even among the Salidar Aes Sedai.

If Egwene also thinks this, then she should kill Rand. But she has not even considered this, and during her Accepted test she rejected that option even though in that case she was given good reasons for it.

You're full of weird dichotomies today! I've already said that she could recognise he is their only hope for victory while thinking he is going about it the wrong way, and thereby seek to guide him or oppose him until he sees sense. She could easily think he wasn't too far gone, but that if left unchecked he would be making a terrible mistake.

If she would really want to do something about the actual problem, then she should have send out scouting parties to figure out what all the various forces were doing, instead of assuming that if it were important, someone would inform her, so what she did not hear could not be relevant.

Not sure what you mean here. She has been writing to leaders to garner their support. How would watching their armies help?

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 11:06 AM
Well, for one, Breaking the Seals doesnt free the DO as Egwene seems to think...it just brings them back to the same situation as the time of The Strike. Egwene, the Watcher of Said Seals, should at least have a basic understanding of that.

Yes, but it would presumably open the prison relatively wide (wider than when Lanfear bored in originally, if it began to grow wider over the years of the War of Power. And in that case, the backlash would be even greater. Who knows what that would mean for reality or the people (including the Dragon) who were near the Seals when they were destroyed?


Also, why is it silly to think that the chosen one and reborn Leader of the Light be in charge of the Last Battle? Its kinda his prophecized role in all this.

He's prophecised to be there, not necessarily be the leader. Early in the series, the Aes Sedai thought keeping the Dragon Reborn under guard in the White Tower would be enough, since he only had to be alive to reach the Last Battle. Moiraine, Siuan and Rand knew this to be wrong, that he would have to learn and grow into his role, but it shows the prophecies do not state explicitly that he would be the leader of all the forces at the Last Battle, just that he would have to be there. His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul is the important part, as far as many are concerned.

Now while Egwene wouldn't hold to that line of thinking, she wouldn't think he was infallible in his decisions either; she knew him as a boy and he is very human to her. Everyone knows Rand started muttering to himself and behaving oddly, so that apparent insanity would be even more of a worry to her.

Why would anyone who knew him think he suddenly knew all the answers and couldn't put a foot wrong?

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 11:21 AM
What else can she do, but oppose him if he won't listen?She can support him, and hope that he is actually right and she is wrong.

That seems a more sensible option than supporting the DO, as she is doing now effectively, and hoping that the DR will come to accept her view, and that that view then actually turns out to be correct.

Based on what she knows, what reason does she have for assuming that she knows better than the Dragon Reborn does?

Bashere shrugged, grinning behind his gray-streaked mustaches. "When I first slept in a saddle, Muad Cheade was Marshal-General. The man was as mad as a hare in spring thaw. Twice every day he searched his bodyservant for poison, and he drank nothing but vinegar and water, which he claimed was sovereign against the poison the fellow fed him, but he ate everything the man prepared for as long as I knew him. Once he had a grove of oaks chopped down because they were looking at him. And then insisted they be given decent funerals; he gave the oration. Do you have any idea how long it takes to dig graves for twenty-three oak trees?"
"Why didn’t somebody do something? His family?"
"Those not mad as he was, or madder, were afraid to look at him sideways. Tenobia’s father wouldn’t have let anyone touch Cheade anyway. He might have been insane, but he could outgeneral anyone I ever saw. He never lost a battle. He never even came close to losing."
Rand laughed. "So you follow me because you think I can out-general the Dark One?"
"I follow you because you are who you are," Bashere said quietly. "The world must follow you, or those who survive will wish themselves dead."Is Bashere's reasoning here really that stupid?

It would drive me absolutely potty, having to follow such a madman, but if you know that the only sane thing to do is follow his orders and hope that once again he'll pull a miracle out of his hat, then why should you refuse to follow him until he obeys you, the non-expert?
Rand may be mad, but thinking that Egwene has better answers is both mad and stupid.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 11:25 AM
Yes, but it would presumably open the prison relatively wide (wider than when Lanfear bored in originally, if it began to grow wider over the years of the War of Power. And in that case, the backlash would be even greater. Who knows what that would mean for reality or the people (including the Dragon) who were near the Seals when they were destroyed?


What are you basing this on? The Seals have crumbled and 4 are already gone...and yet no ripping loose has occurred. Think of it as an asphalt patch on a bad pothole that is crumbling...it wont rip the rest of the road apart to break the remaining chunks in the way. The DO can already project his avatar (Shaidar Haran) out into the world so its not as if its sealed over in any meaningful way. There are no indications that breaking the remaining seals will have any affect other than to bring them back to the same status as the time of The Strike. Breaking them and attacking before the forces of the Light are too weak to even mount an attack is probably a smart move. Consider that all of Randland is basically starving to death and hasn't seen the sun in weeks unless Rand is around....they need to strike and strike fast...before it is too late. Egwene's moronic idea to form a working group to discuss it forever is just as brutally stupid as Latra Posae's refusal to assist LTT during the AoL.

GonzoTheGreat
06-22-2011, 11:30 AM
Egwene's moronic idea to form a working group to discuss it forever is just as brutally stupid as Latra Posae's refusal to assist LTT during the AoL.Not quite. Posae wouldn't have been inspired to hurry a bit by a sul'dam, and that might very well happen to Egwene if she dithers long enough.

True, she doesn't want that particular "avoidance of stupidity", but her wishes wouldn't be all that important anymore if she let it come to that.
And I do admit that the fact that she would have to be saved from her folly by being collared is a good indication of the magnitude of her stupidity. It's just not quite as big as the earlier example, is all.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 12:50 PM
She is too passionate, it allowed rand to turn her into a puppet by simply not telling her why he wanted to destroy the seals.

And I'm sure George Bush believed in himself too.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 01:28 PM
She can support him, and hope that he is actually right and she is wrong.

And yet she believes he is wrong and believes she has it in her power to change things. Instead of taking action, would you, in her position, jettison all responsibility and deny the duty of your position of power, and not act? Would you absolve yourself of all responsibility by saying, "It's all on Rand" even if you believed you could help him and the world by doing something? You'd just sit there with your fingers crossed?

It's probably worth noting that if Cadsuane had believed in Rand whole-heartedly and never questioned him and just kept her fingers crossed, Rand would be a shadow of himself, more closer than ever to complete insanity, he'd never have had his epiphany and he'd have killed the Borderlanders when he was slapped. If Cadsuane was right not to just hope things would work out for the best when they were in the hands of an apparently troubled soul, how can you be so critical of Egwene for having analogous, though different, concerns?

That seems a more sensible option than supporting the DO, as she is doing now effectively, and hoping that the DR will come to accept her view, and that that view then actually turns out to be correct.

There you go again with your weird dichotomies! Everything is black and white with you! You either support Rand wholly, without murmur or objection or you're doing the Dark One's work. The Prophet would have loved to have had you in his ranks.


Based on what she knows, what reason does she have for assuming that she knows better than the Dragon Reborn does?

Is Bashere's reasoning here really that stupid?

It would drive me absolutely potty, having to follow such a madman, but if you know that the only sane thing to do is follow his orders and hope that once again he'll pull a miracle out of his hat, then why should you refuse to follow him until he obeys you, the non-expert?
Rand may be mad, but thinking that Egwene has better answers is both mad and stupid.

Bashere has his experience of Rand, Egwene has her experience of Rand and has the means to guide/oppose him in a way Bashere does not. Both have come to conclusions about Rand and how they interact with him. Bashere's reasoning isn't stupid and neither is Egwene's.

It would drive you potty to follow Rand as you say, and you've seen things from his point of view, and know he has had his Dragonmount epiphany. Egwene doesn't, so if it would drive you potty, why should she just fall into line? Why would Egwene see Rand as an "expert" and herself as a non-expert if she's not inside his head like we, the readers, have been? Maybe she should have pre-ordered The Gathering Storm to ensure she could read it before the Last Battle and gain the insights you've had?

ShadowbaneX
06-22-2011, 01:36 PM
While Egwene the girl is in favor of a threesome, Egwene the Amyrlin is eternal and no mere girl interested in such silly things, blah blah blah...


and rep'ed. My problem with Egwene is exactly this: she's pompous. The way she treats Siuan in tGS is another example of this. Perhaps it's just the way that BS writes the character but she's acting like a pompous arrogant ass.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 01:36 PM
She is too passionate, it allowed rand to turn her into a puppet by simply not telling her why he wanted to destroy the seals.

And I'm sure George Bush believed in himself too.

When you say Egwene is passionate, what you really mean is that she is ignorant, blind and stupid. Those types of people usually shout the loudest and are the most vehement when they have a knee-jerk reaction due to being closed-minded and unable to think outside the box even a little.

I think it's foolish to think you know anything about George Bush based on what you were fed by the media and our government in general. I didn't like the man, he was seemingly an easy target, but to say the average American has any idea what the true score was with him is laughable. The same can be said for any president. Presidents (not to mention political parties, etc) are great targets for people that like to whine and assign blame for problems. That said, our entire world is positively going to hell and specific political parties or presidents mean jack squat to the big picture.

Fools will still be pointing fingers at Republicans or Democrats (or whoever) when humanity as a whole eventually collapses, as if they had anything to do with it. Which may be the whole idea in the first place.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 02:20 PM
Actually all I said was I am sure he believed in himself. I have nothing against the man, in fact I liked him better than Kerry. But there are people who think badly of him, I was simply pointing out that self-confidence is a poor defense of anyone.

Although you brought to light what I think is one of the strongest defenses of Egwene's actions after she was raised. She couldn't refuse the title, and I don't believe she could be released short of burning herself out or being severed. So if she is childish, petty, or inexperienced, while if she were in a position like the presidency I would think she should step down, she cannot here. Of course, her self-confidence bordering on extreme arrogance raises the question of whether she would if she could...but as well ask if she would really get over her addiction and let Elaida still her if Elaida were the better Amyrlin. Which is really too bad, I liked Elaida in NS.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 02:23 PM
Please keep American politics (or any reference to them) off the WoT discussion board.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 02:41 PM
Lol. And Greek politics, is that forbidden too?

Terez
06-22-2011, 02:52 PM
I think what Dav is getting at is that American politics in particular are a touchy subject, and likely to inspire Gonzo to start going off about Bush and Gitmo as if this were Non-WoT. We like to keep that sort of thing there usually. It's hard to avoid politics in certain discussions, but when Brandon mentioned the gay guy in TOM, I started a thread about it on Non rather than here, partly for that reason.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 02:53 PM
What are you basing this on? ...

Maybe I'm making a case on little evidence. But then it also wouldn't have occurred to Egwene that was necessary to break the seals, so why take the chance? Fel made notes, interpreted by Min, which informed Rand and led him to his plan of action. If Egwene has no knowledge of that, why would she think it necessary to break the seals and take the risk? She would think, "Why not just try to come up with a plan to build the seals back up again?" She has, after all, the secret of cuellindar at her disposal to make new ones.

Further, in 'The Amyrlin's Anger' (Towers of Midnight) Rand himself recognises it as "A risk we must take" (p 84 of my version). Rand and Egwene both see it as a risk. If what you say is true and going back to the pre-Seal state not a big deal, why does Rand acknowledge that it is a risk?

Davian93
06-22-2011, 02:58 PM
I think what Dav is getting at is that American politics in particular are a touchy subject, and likely to inspire Gonzo to start going off about Bush and Gitmo as if this were Non-WoT. We like to keep that sort of thing there usually. It's hard to avoid politics in certain discussions, but when Brandon mentioned the gay guy in TOM, I started a thread about it on Non rather than here, partly for that reason.

Dav is stretching his long-unused Moderator muscles...

Davian93
06-22-2011, 03:00 PM
Maybe I'm making a case on little evidence. But then it also wouldn't have occurred to Egwene that was necessary to break the seals, so why take the chance? Fel made notes, interpreted by Min, which informed Rand and led him to his plan of action. If Egwene has no knowledge of that, why would she think it necessary to break the seals and take the risk? She would think, "Why not just try to come up with a plan to build the seals back up again?" She has, after all, the secret of cuellindar at her disposal to make new ones.

Further, in 'The Amyrlin's Anger' (Towers of Midnight) Rand himself recognises it as "A risk we must take" (p 84 of my version). Rand and Egwene both see it as a risk. If what you say is true and going back to the pre-Seal state not a big deal, why does Rand acknowledge that it is a risk?

Interesting thought...I wonder what would happen to the current seals if Egwene & company attempted to turn them back to Cuendillar...would it have the affect of kicking the can down the road or would it open up Saidar to the Taint (a definite possibility given previous discussions on said topic and the physical seals merely being focus points for the real seals).

Terez
06-22-2011, 03:00 PM
Dav is stretching his long-unused Moderator muscles...
I figured, but I tried to make it out to be less arbitrary than that.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't think the seals could be turned back into cuendillar. I think they still are, just breakable ones. And I think any number fewer than seven is quite dangerous.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 03:14 PM
Further, in 'The Amyrlin's Anger' (Towers of Midnight) Rand himself recognises it as "A risk we must take" (p 84 of my version). Rand and Egwene both see it as a risk. If what you say is true and going back to the pre-Seal state not a big deal, why does Rand acknowledge that it is a risk?

As opposed to what, the option that isn't a risk? You mean to tell me one exists! Oh my God, if only they knew!!!!

He means breaking the seals isn't a big deal due to the fact that it would almost certainly (by way of simple logic) revert the Dark One's prison back to how it was pre-seals. Whereas it would be a big deal if breaking them would completely free the Dark One. The way I see it, there isn't a whole hell of a lot of difference between the current situation and what there would be (and was thousands of yrs ago) if there were no seals.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 03:15 PM
I don't think the seals could be turned back into cuendillar. I think they still are, just breakable ones. And I think any number fewer than seven is quite dangerous.

If they were still cuendillar, they'd be, by definition, unbreakable. Evidence suggests that the DO's touch has basically turned what was once strong concrete back into its base materials so to speak.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 03:16 PM
I don't think the seals could be turned back into cuendillar. I think they still are, just breakable ones. And I think any number fewer than seven is quite dangerous.

So how about surrounding the old ones with a new coat of cuendillar and then mounting an expedition to Shayol Ghul to see about creating three or four (or whatever) brand new seals while the Dark One is still effectively caged, thereby reducing the chance of backlash onto the One Power, thereby keeping the One Power clean and making sure there are seven seals in palce?

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 03:22 PM
Maybe the known definition of cuendillar is wrong. There is at least one force other than the TP that can break them. I always thought the "absorbing attacking forces to get stronger" thing wasn't true (how would they prove it?), but if it is, they might be able to just channel a bit of spirit into it for a while.

Egwene's method of creating cuendillar seems to require iron, which they are not. And even coating them in iron first doesn't solve the too few seals issue.

*edited to add
But as far as we know the seals could turn to dust within their shells.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 03:26 PM
So how about surrounding the old ones with a new coat of cuendillar and then mounting an expedition to Shayol Ghul to see about creating three or four (or whatever) brand new seals while the Dark One is still effectively caged, thereby reducing the chance of backlash onto the One Power, thereby keeping the One Power clean and making sure there are seven seals in palce?

I have no idea how the seals actually work, and I don't think anyone in Randland does either, save perhaps Rand. Aren't the seals actually access points for the real "seals" on the DO's prison? And if a physical seal is already broken, how would coating it with cuendillar help anything? It would be like wrapping a dead body in living tissue. It's not going to bring them back to life since they're already dead. :) The "essence" so to speak of a broken seal is completely gone and so the seal is useless, since it was tied to the original (for this Age) sealing of the Bore.

That said, maybe the physical seals we are all familiar with have nothing directly to do with keeping the Bore sealed. Maybe they are more of an "indicator light" that shows how strong the sealing of the Bore still is. Something that LTT and company created to let future generations tell how strong the sealing still is or not. For example - "Only two seals remain unbroken, we don't have much time left before we have to act." - sort of thing.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 03:31 PM
While I agree with that for the most part, I think Moiraine has some idea how they work, after all she scraped a bit off of one (something I would be horrified to do) and didn't seem to think that would count as breaking it. Maybe knowledge from the aelfinn.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 03:36 PM
Moiraine scraped a tiny sliver off of one before she met any finns. Her first meeting was in TSR.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 03:39 PM
I have no idea how the seals actually work, and I don't think anyone in Randland does either, save perhaps Rand. Aren't the seals actually access points for the real "seals" on the DO's prison? And if a physical seal is already broken, how would coating it with cuendillar help anything? It would be like wrapping a dead body in living tissue. It's not going to bring them back to life since they're already dead. :) The "essence" so to speak of a broken seal is completely gone and so the seal is useless, since it was tied to the original (for this Age) sealing of the Bore.

That said, maybe the physical seals we are all familiar with have nothing directly to do with keeping the Bore sealed. Maybe they are more of an "indicator light" that shows how strong the sealing of the Bore still is. Something that LTT and company created to let future generations tell how strong the sealing still is or not. For example - "Only two seals remain unbroken, we don't have much time left before we have to act." - sort of thing.

I meant the intact seals which are still crumbling but not broken. I meant 1) give those a new coating. And 2) go to Shayol Ghul and see about laying some new seals on the prison and laying their focal point cuellendar equivalents down as brand new entities separate from those that have already broken. Reverse steps 1 and 2 if that might make more sense, if you were worried about being stuck with 4 unbreakable seals when you really needed 7 or 0.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 03:43 PM
When did she scrape it then? I thought it was in rhuidean.

And I still would be worried about the seals crumbling within their shells. Not to mention the forsaken are still loose, and might just destroy any new seals.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 03:51 PM
When did she scrape it then? I thought it was in rhuidean.

Think it was as early as the end of tEotW. Might be wrong.

And I still would be worried about the seals crumbling within their shells. Not to mention the forsaken are still loose, and might just destroy any new seals.

Maybe the broken seals were broken by trauma. If they're inside tight, form-fitting shells, how much trauma could they suffer? Or an alternative: make the new seals as I mentioned, then break the old ones and visit Shayol Ghul and make brand new equivalents of the ones you've just destroyed. Then you've got seven brand new cuendillar seals. Can even the Forsaken break those?

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 04:05 PM
I think you're right, it was in Rhuidean, although I'm not sure.

At the end of TEotW, I seem to remember Lan stabbing the one they found at the Eye and breaking off a knife blade.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 04:10 PM
Maybe the broken seals were broken by trauma. If they're inside tight, form-fitting shells, how much trauma could they suffer? Or an alternative: make the new seals as I mentioned, then break the old ones and visit Shayol Ghul and make brand new equivalents of the ones you've just destroyed. Then you've got seven brand new cuendillar seals. Can even the Forsaken break those?

I think you're misunderstanding exactly what the physical seals are. Tight, form-fitting shells? I'm just going to lay off this topic because I wouldn't even know where to begin explaining how I disagree and how to say it.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 04:10 PM
The one found in the eye was already in pieces. And Morridin can wield the TP, known to break cuendillar.

It may be impossible to place new seals with any precision if the old are still in place.

As for trauma...I can't think of anything that would simply sap strength from it without breaking it, so they could conceivably still break whatever physical shields are in place.

Tree Brother
06-22-2011, 04:20 PM
I have no idea how the seals actually work, and I don't think anyone in Randland does either, save perhaps Rand. Aren't the seals actually access points for the real "seals" on the DO's prison? And if a physical seal is already broken, how would coating it with cuendillar help anything?

I always thought the seals on the prison were similar in function to the way a person is cut off from the OP. When Rand's shield is tied off, he feels "Hard points" that he punches through. (Unless I am getting things mixed up).

The Dark One is slowly breaking the hard points of his "shield" (just a metaphor), each one becoming easier than the last. TP destroys cuendillar, after all. So not surprising that the seals are broken, as the DO destroys the nodes they represent.

Or something like that.

Not that this explains how the Forsaken were bound.

Kimon
06-22-2011, 04:21 PM
I meant the intact seals which are still crumbling but not broken. I meant 1) give those a new coating. And 2) go to Shayol Ghul and see about laying some new seals on the prison and laying their focal point cuellendar equivalents down as brand new entities separate from those that have already broken. Reverse steps 1 and 2 if that might make more sense, if you were worried about being stuck with 4 unbreakable seals when you really needed 7 or 0.

That would still seem like rebuilding a house on top of a cracked and unstable foundation. Unless Egwene has some alternative (which does not appear to be the case) to using seals to recreate the prison, then it would seem to make sense that at some point the remaining seals must be broken so that new, and intact, seals can be placed to create the prison. It is, I suppose, possible that some alternative plan could be designed for making the prison, a plan in which the presence of faulty seals would not be a problem, but barring that, breaking the remaining foci would seem a prerequisite, and better that this is done under their own direction and control, rather than by the DO and his minions at a time of their own choosing.

This debate would seem to center around two points. First, how will the prison be restored. If some plan similar to what was done last time, albeit with some alterations so as to deny the DO to taint the source, then breaking the remaining seals would seem necessary. Better to do this at a time of their choosing, rather than the enemy's. Second, the question of who is in command. This is likely the more important issue. Those of us who dislike Egwene likely think that Rand should be the unquestioned Hegemon, and that the problem with Egwene, as with Elaida before her, is that she is thinking of Rand like an annoying sentient sword rather than as her commanding officer. Egwene was troubled by the fact that sisters had sworn allegiance to Rand. She needs to accept the fact that all of them, including her, should be swearing allegiance to the Dragon.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 04:22 PM
I think you're misunderstanding exactly what the physical seals are. Tight, form-fitting shells? I'm just going to lay off this topic because I wouldn't even know where to begin explaining how I disagree and how to say it.

If you can't explain it, you can't explain it. Don't pretend to take the moral high ground because you can't articulate yourself, and don't patronise me for your failing.

And, by the way, I've offered an alternative to "shells". Or is your argument against that also something that is beneath you?

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 04:26 PM
Well, I've argued against both. Your alternative still requires the seals be broken anyway.

Toss the dice
06-22-2011, 04:32 PM
If you can't explain it, you can't explain it. Don't pretend to take the moral high ground because you can't articulate yourself, and don't patronise me for your failing.

And, by the way, I've offered an alternative to "shells". Or is your argument against that also something that is beneath you?

I felt I couldn't effectively explain it, I still can't, so I said so. I also disagreed with you and believe you were misunderstanding what the nature of the physical seals were, so I said so.

If you want to combine those statements of mine into a package deal aimed at being offensive and patronizing, you're welcome to. However, that wasn't my intention. In short - I disagree but it would be hard for me to put the exact how and why into words, any more than the limited amount I already have.

ChubbyAiel
06-22-2011, 04:37 PM
I felt I couldn't effectively explain it, I still can't, so I said so. I also disagreed with you and believe you were misunderstanding what the nature of the physical seals were, so I said so.

If you want to combine those statements of mine into a package deal aimed at being offensive and patronizing, you're welcome to. However, that wasn't my intention. In short - I disagree but it would be hard for me to put the exact how and why into words, any more than the limited amount I already have.

Apologies. Complete over-reaction on my part. It's been a long day at work and I'm knackered, but that's no excuse.

Enigma
06-22-2011, 05:20 PM
Egwene was troubled by the fact that sisters had sworn allegiance to Rand. She needs to accept the fact that all of them, including her, should be swearing allegiance to the Dragon.

The trouble with that is that Egwene had until recently no reason to believe that Rand knew what he was doing beyond relying on luck. The last time Egwene was with Rand he was still trying to figure out the ins and outs of channeling. Granted he was given a crash course in politics by Moiraine but as far as Egwene knew he was still relativly uneducated in the One Power and the mechanics of the universe.

She was not to know that he had a tame all be it a reluctant forsaken as a teacher, or that LTT was whispering info in his ear as well as him gaining some of LTT's memories.

We the reader know that Rand is probably best placed of all the characters except possibly Ishamael, to figure out how to seal away the DO. That is not the case with Egwene who does not have that information.

Or at least she didn't have it until recently. Where I fault Egwene is that instead of trying to make sure Nynaeve confoms to being a good obedient Aes Sedai she should be talking to the woman and talking in what she says not just casually dismissing anything that does not fit with her world view. Nyneave can fill her in that Rand knows a lot more about how the One Power works that nearly everyone, he did come up with the way to cleanse the taint. Likewise Nynaeve know from Semirhage that he does have some of LTT's knowledge.

Saying that how hard would it have been for Nynaeve to simply tell Egwene that her view of Rand is clearly out of date and that he is a lot more knowlegable that Egwene believes. She does not seem to have gone out of her way to correct Egwene's view of Rand. Of course if she did and if Egwene listened there would be a lot less dramatic tension.

I suspect that it will only be when Egwnene meets Rand again and I beleive that he will thank her for gathering a big chunk of the forces of the light together, as he just didn't have time to do it, that Egwene will finally realise that her view of Rand is out of date. I can see it a bit like the scene where Tuon finally meets the Band and sees Mat planning a battle that she finally realises that the charming rogue she had Mat pegged as is in fact a lot more complicated not to mention formidable and dangerous.

Kimon
06-22-2011, 05:32 PM
The trouble with that is that Egwene had until recently no reason to believe that Rand knew what he was doing beyond relying on luck. The last time Egwene was with Rand he was still trying to figure out the ins and outs of channeling. Granted he was given a crash course in politics by Moiraine but as far as Egwene knew he was still relativly uneducated in the One Power and the mechanics of the universe.

She was not to know that he had a tame all be it a reluctant forsaken as a teacher, or that LTT was whispering info in his ear as well as him gaining some of LTT's memories.

We the reader know that Rand is probably best placed of all the characters except possibly Ishamael, to figure out how to seal away the DO. That is not the case with Egwene who does not have that information.

Or at least she didn't have it until recently. Where I fault Egwene is that instead of trying to make sure Nynaeve confoms to being a good obedient Aes Sedai she should be talking to the woman and talking in what she says not just casually dismissing anything that does not fit with her world view. Nyneave can fill her in that Rand knows a lot more about how the One Power works that nearly everyone, he did come up with the way to cleanse the taint. Likewise Nynaeve know from Semirhage that he does have some of LTT's knowledge.

Saying that how hard would it have been for Nynaeve to simply tell Egwene that her view of Rand is clearly out of date and that he is a lot more knowlegable that Egwene believes. She does not seem to have gone out of her way to correct Egwene's view of Rand. Of course if she did and if Egwene listened there would be a lot less dramatic tension.

I suspect that it will only be when Egwnene meets Rand again and I beleive that he will thank her for gathering a big chunk of the forces of the light together, as he just didn't have time to do it, that Egwene will finally realise that her view of Rand is out of date. I can see it a bit like the scene where Tuon finally meets the Band and sees Mat planning a battle that she finally realises that the charming rogue she had Mat pegged as is in fact a lot more complicated not to mention formidable and dangerous.

Yet somehow, with access to no more information than Egwene had, Moiraine knew that it was necessary to swear allegiance to Rand, just as she knew that a Forsaken was training Rand in the power. One might have wished that Egwene would have spent more time actually absorbing the lessons that Moiraine had attempted to instill in her, you know, like the fact that saving the world was more important than ensuring the dominance of the WT in both the present and the future.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 05:44 PM
Maybe the known definition of cuendillar is wrong. There is at least one force other than the TP that can break them. I always thought the "absorbing attacking forces to get stronger" thing wasn't true (how would they prove it?), but if it is, they might be able to just channel a bit of spirit into it for a while.

Egwene's method of creating cuendillar seems to require iron, which they are not. And even coating them in iron first doesn't solve the too few seals issue.

*edited to add
But as far as we know the seals could turn to dust within their shells.

Maybe Egwene's version with iron is simply the female version...afterall, the original Seals were made by men...most likely LTT himself. Its also possible there are other ways to make it that Egwene wasn't able to torture out of Moggy.

sleepinghour
06-22-2011, 05:49 PM
I love Mat, Nynaeve, and Egwene and I think they should have a threesome.

Nothing against crack pairings (hey, I wrote Tam/Cadsuane and a WoT/Chilean miners crossover myself), but I don't think any amount of oosquai could get any combination of those three characters to hook up, let alone have a threesome. And if it did happen, Mat might actually be willing to visit the 'Finns again, this time to get some new holes in his memory... :p

Saying that how hard would it have been for Nynaeve to simply tell Egwene that her view of Rand is clearly out of date and that he is a lot more knowlegable that Egwene believes. She does not seem to have gone out of her way to correct Egwene's view of Rand. Of course if she did and if Egwene listened there would be a lot less dramatic tension.

Nynaeve did tell Egwene:
Nynaeve's report demanded consideration. She'd spoken of her time with Rand al'Thor, and specifically of events such as the cleansing.[...]
"If it matters, Rand didn't approve the men bonding women."
"It doesn't matter if he did or not," Egwene said. "The Asha'man are his responsibility."
"As the Aes Sedai who chained him and beat him are yours, Mother?" Nynaeve asked.
"Inherited from Elaida, perhaps," Egwene said, eyes narrowing just slightly.
She was right to bring Nynaeve back, Siuan thought, taking a sip of soup. She takes his side far too often for comfort.
Nynaeve sighed, taking her spoon to begin her soup. "I didn't mean that as a challenge, Mother. I just want to show how he thinks. Light! I didn't approve of much of what he did, particularly lately. But I can see how he got there."
"He has changed, though," Siuan said thoughtfully. "You said so yourself."

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 05:51 PM
Maybe Egwene's version with iron is simply the female version...afterall, the original Seals were made by men...most likely LTT himself. Its also possible there are other ways to make it that Egwene wasn't able to torture out of Moggy.Entirely possible, but it's more a technicality...whatever is possible with cuendillar, Egwene doesn't have the knowledge to create a viable alternative to whatever Rand's plan is.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 05:54 PM
Entirely possible, but it's more a technicality...whatever is possible with cuendillar, Egwene doesn't have the knowledge to create a viable alternative to whatever Rand's plan is.

Well, I agree with that completely. I am the one that Championed the "We Trust Rand On the Seals" Faction afterall.

Enigma
06-22-2011, 06:01 PM
Nynaeve did tell Egwene:

I had forgotted about that, good catch. Its curious that for all the pov we have had of Egwene in the last book there has been very little on what she thinks is required to defeat the Dark One. Does she had a plan? I wonder was the absence of her thoughts on what to do and the fact that we have had very little of what Rand is thinking done that way to keep the suspence for the last book?

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 06:07 PM
I had forgotted about that, good catch. Its curious that for all the pov we have had of Egwene in the last book there has been very little on what she thinks is required to defeat the Dark One. Does she had a plan? I wonder was the absence of her thoughts on what to do and the fact that we have had very little of what Rand is thinking done that way to keep the suspence for the last book?

This is one reason many people are annoyed by Egwene.

Well, I agree with that completely. I am the one that Championed the "We Trust Rand On the Seals" Faction afterall.

Where is it? I can't find the group.

Davian93
06-22-2011, 06:27 PM
We Trust In Rand's Instincts On The Seals (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=195)

Here you go.

Kimon
06-22-2011, 08:34 PM
Is anyone else bothered by the fact that Egwene has not taken the prudent step of proposing to the Hall that considering the threat posed by the Seanchan not to mention the imminence of TG (and the likelihood that they will be facing not just Shadowspawn but also dreadlords and DFs) that it is high time that they rid themselves of the two more idiotic oaths - against making power-enhanced weaponry and against using the power as a weapon except in self-defense and against shadowspawn? She has sort of floated the idea, and commented on the stupidity of the oaths, but hasn't taken the further step of actually doing anything about it.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 08:54 PM
We Trust In Rand's Instincts On The Seals (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=195)

Here you go.

Oh I was looking in the groups, so I guess it was the wrong place.

And Egwene had no problem killing captured sisters before, and presumably was trying to behave as if she were bound, so I'm sure she could do some mental gymnastics to get ii of those too. (a weapon for one man to kill shadowspawn, a weapon for a woman to kill a man, stuff like that)

Kimon
06-22-2011, 09:22 PM
Oh I was looking in the groups, so I guess it was the wrong place.

And Egwene had no problem killing captured sisters before, and presumably was trying to behave as if she were bound, so I'm sure she could do some mental gymnastics to get ii of those too. (a weapon for one man to kill shadowspawn, a weapon for a woman to kill a man, stuff like that)

Maintaining the oath against lying is one thing, the other two oaths make them a liability in combat, especially against the Seanchan. To placate rulers, they could however add an alternative oath, stipulating that all Aes Sedai forever abdicate all secular authority, claims, and positions (since this concern would seem to be one of the main criteria for which the oaths arose- the fear of secular rulers of individual Aes Sedai or the White Tower as a whole interference and possible imperial intentions). That would of course require Elayne to hand over Caemlyn and Cairhien to a non-channeler, but Dyelin would do just fine as queen of Andor, and Galad indeed should have an even better claim to Cairhien than does she. That would also fit with their original apparent purpose as being servants rather than rulers. It would, indeed, make them much more similar to the Wise Ones.

Moreover, it would also provide a convenient casus belli against Fortuona if she refused to abdicate after TG (since she is also a channeler, even if she won't admit it yet), and allow them to renege on the alliance that will undoubtedly occur during TG. The alternative to fighting afterwards would essentially just be like hoping for the same result as in the Cold War after WWII, certainly allowing the Seanchan, even a slightly sanitized Seanchan Empire to continue to thrive, or worse, to allow them to rise pre-eminent, would be like an alterate reality where the South won the Civil War. A world ruled by Dixie is a world in which you might as well have just let the Shadow triumph.

The Unreasoner
06-22-2011, 09:29 PM
That's kind of funny as Jordan actually said that the seanchan accent is similar to the south.

I don't see failure to get rid of the oaths as an attack on Egwene though as she would probably never manage it.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 12:47 AM
One of the things that bugged me in general, though I post it here, is that there are fewer "grey areas" than I would hope for. Too many things have an obvious solution or answer.

Egwene could have had a much better storyline if Elaida was a good amyrlin, or at least not hated inside and out of the tower, and if she were competent. A tougher decision to make, while dealing with Egwene's self doubt as to the purity of her motives, wondering and considering (seriously, not half assed) whether or not her op addiction clouds her judgement, making her unable to to give herself up for the good of the white tower. Using Elaida to explore an authoritarian style, to question whether the ends justify the means.

But instead we have a power hungry lunatic disbanding the blue ajah and a stubborn child claiming her embassy will be different somehow than the other two or three already sent.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:38 AM
But instead we have a power hungry lunatic disbanding the blue ajah and a stubborn child claiming her embassy will be different somehow than the other two or three already sent.

Merana's embassy was going quite well until Verin (probably, or at least she took advantage of the situation to try to seize control of the embassy, until Kiruna showed up anyway) swooped in and decided to shank Demira so that she could seize control. And of course, the remnants of those two embassies now are much more reliable and in many ways more useful than any of the other sisters, since they of course are now dragonsworn.

Merana and Rafela negotiated his alliance with the Sea Folk, not to mention the official recognition that he was the Coramoor. They also negotiated an end to the rebellion in Tear. Rather helpful, nay? And some of the WT dragonsworn, Nesune et aliae, helped out at Shadar Logoth during the Cleansing, even though Nesune was worried that the attempt might crack the world like an egg. I wonder if Egwene would have considered it worth the risk?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:45 AM
There is no doubt the Aes Sedai serving rand have proven useful, maybe even essential. I just doubt any embassy to rand whoever sent it would be able to serve any really useful purpose to the white tower. I doubt Egwene's hypothetical embassy would have done any better than merana's did (at least in their function as an embassy).

ChubbyAiel
06-23-2011, 04:20 AM
The point of my musings on repairing the seals and making new ones was not that I thought that would actually work, but to try to make the point that there could be alternatives to Rand's plan of breaking them. If I were in Egwene's position and my choice was between following a man blindly when I believed him to be insane, or looking for alternatives while trying to ensure he didn't make a rash decision that would risk creation itself, I would take the latter option.

I joined Davian's faction about trusting Rand's instincts on the seals, but I can see why Egwene is wary of such action based on her limited knowledge of what's going on in Rand's mind.

ChubbyAiel
06-23-2011, 04:35 AM
Your alternative still requires the seals be broken anyway.

That's true, but it could be a much safer way than how Rand plans to do things. Rand didn't explain why he needs to break them as he plans. There should have been a discussion about what he plans to do. He turned up at the Hall, didn't explain himself properly, laid down the law to someone who thinks he's mad and left. Egwene is sensible to have her doubts.

I've just posted to say that I don't really think my alternatives would work, but I'm trying to make the point that Egwene is right not to trust him so completely when she has no reason to. She should be worried about what will happen if he's wrong and thinking about alternatives.

As I've said earlier, Cadsuane was right to show Rand the error of his ways, and she may have saved the world by reminding him how to laugh and cry (or whatever the line was). She didn't just stand by and think "Rand can't possibly be wrong because he's the Dragon".

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 04:41 AM
Cadsuane was one of my favorite characters until the last book or so. I posted earlier that I thought rand purposefully didn't tell her why he wanted to break the seals, and I am annoyed she basically became his puppet with regards to the world leaders. She shouldn't be so passionate that she forgets to stop and think.

DahLliA
06-23-2011, 04:51 AM
I've just posted to say that I don't really think my alternatives would work, but I'm trying to make the point that Egwene is right not to trust him so completely when she has no reason to. She should be worried about what will happen if he's wrong and thinking about alternatives

she isn't though. she just thinks that since she's the allmighty, allknowing Amyrlin she will be the one to figure out how to save the world.

problem is she has no clue whatsoever. and she's more worried about having the WT control the world after TG than actually finding out how to win it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 05:32 AM
It's probably worth noting that if Cadsuane had believed in Rand whole-heartedly and never questioned him and just kept her fingers crossed, Rand would be a shadow of himself, more closer than ever to complete insanity, he'd never have had his epiphany and he'd have killed the Borderlanders when he was slapped. If Cadsuane was right not to just hope things would work out for the best when they were in the hands of an apparently troubled soul, how can you be so critical of Egwene for having analogous, though different, concerns?

There you go again with your weird dichotomies! Everything is black and white with you! You either support Rand wholly, without murmur or objection or you're doing the Dark One's work. The Prophet would have loved to have had you in his ranks.Egwene would have had more options if she had bothered pursuing them. For months she could have gone to seek out Rand, or send a search party with an invitation to talk at his convenience. But the whole time she decided that checking the laundry lists of her army camp had priority over getting involved in discussing the fate of the world.
Now time has run out for her, and any contributions she might make are boiled down to the rather simple three options: "she is with Rand, she is against Rand (and thus with the DO) or she stands aside during TG".

Read the board, and you may notice that for quite a few of the last books I have been arguing that Egwene should go and approach Rand over the matter of how to handle the actually important thing: the fight against the DO. She did not do so. That is her decision. It puts her out of the loop, but that was an obvious consequence all along.

The trouble with that is that Egwene had until recently no reason to believe that Rand knew what he was doing beyond relying on luck.That is because she was very blatantly failing to pay attention, and deliberately did not believe anything which penetrated her awareness anyway.

Rand showed that he knew what he was about better than anyone else when he left the Stone and gathered the Aiel to him, where the Great Expert Moiraine was advising him to charge headlong at an entrenched Forsaken.
Rand showed that he knew what he was doing when he trapped Asmodean to serve as his teacher. True, Egwene did not know about that because she paid not enough attention (unlike Moiraine), but that's her fault, not his.
Rand showed that he knew what he was doing when he ousted Sammael from Illian, where the best the Salidar AS could come up with against that situation was not sending an embassy.

On the other hand, Egwene really does not have any real reason to think that Egwene knows what she is doing. And, perhaps just as importantly, Rand does not have any reason to think that Egwene might have a valuable insight into this problem at all. I mean, it's not as if she has given it any thought, is it? All she has been thinking about was getting the DR under control, not on what she wanted him to do if she actually got him leashed.



As for the seals, I have an analog which may be valuable:
Think of something enclosed in rubber balloons. Those have to be tied shut, once they are blown up. Tying them just by making a knot works for a short time, but not very long. So let's further suppose that some kind of lead (or plastic, or whatever) seal is placed over the opening, thus preventing air from escaping totally.
Now, in my analogy, the actual seals around the DO's prison are balloons, and the cuendillar seals are the pieces of lead tying the whole thing off. The DO has been patiently (or more likely: impatiently) chipping away at the lead from the inside, now and then squirting some acid into it, and doing other things you and I wouldn't want to think about.
Now, the balloons and the seals were produced in one single process, specifically designed to produce a tight fit without any strain on the rubber. If you just weld on some more stuff to the outside of the pieces of deteriorating lead, then it likely won't hold, and it might very well pop the balloon. If you attach it to the balloon around the lead bit, then you'll introduce stresses into the balloon, which become attack points for popping it, if it does not tear the balloon outright.
And if you do nothing, then at a time of his choosing the DO may be able to pop the balloon from the inside, making the thing explode into your face.

Thus, the obvious way to deal with this is to break the lead from the outside, let the air escape in a controlled manner, and then deal with the hole in the prison in another, hopefully better, way.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 06:09 AM
To placate rulers, they could however add an alternative oath, stipulating that all Aes Sedai forever abdicate all secular authority, claims, and positions (since this concern would seem to be one of the main criteria for which the oaths arose- the fear of secular rulers of individual Aes Sedai or the White Tower as a whole interference and possible imperial intentions). That would of course require Elayne to hand over Caemlyn and Cairhien to a non-channeler, but Dyelin would do just fine as queen of Andor, and Galad indeed should have an even better claim to Cairhien than does she. That would also fit with their original apparent purpose as being servants rather than rulers. It would, indeed, make them much more similar to the Wise Ones.

except it doesn't take a Dreamer or a Foreteller to see that enforcing rules like that is just one step away from collaring channelers. If there are no benefits and only restrictions to being able to Channel, you'll end up with a de facto slavery, which in turn means that prospective channelers will have progressively more reason to avoid The System and any secret organizations that might spring up will be more polarized, meaning much easier to paint "Evil" or to actually turn to the DO out of frustration and persecution, which will just lead to more clamp-downs on channeling. Eventually leading to either the Seanchan-style real slavery or devastating (domestic) wars involving the One Power - the latter is in the short term (say a few hundred years) more likely as the Oath avoiders will not have any restrictions at all.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 09:25 AM
except it doesn't take a Dreamer or a Foreteller to see that enforcing rules like that is just one step away from collaring channelers. If there are no benefits and only restrictions to being able to Channel, you'll end up with a de facto slavery, which in turn means that prospective channelers will have progressively more reason to avoid The System and any secret organizations that might spring up will be more polarized, meaning much easier to paint "Evil" or to actually turn to the DO out of frustration and persecution, which will just lead to more clamp-downs on channeling. Eventually leading to either the Seanchan-style real slavery or devastating (domestic) wars involving the One Power - the latter is in the short term (say a few hundred years) more likely as the Oath avoiders will not have any restrictions at all.

Moiraine, NS Ch 6:

No Aes Sedai had been queen in over a thousand years, and even before that, the few who had admitted it openly had fared badly.

But for Elayne, how is this more than merely making statute out of long standing precedent? I see it as recognizing them as a priestess (and priest if the Asha'man are included, as they should) caste.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 09:30 AM
Separation of tower and state? That's virtual slavery, you know.

ChubbyAiel
06-23-2011, 10:19 AM
To placate rulers, they could however add an alternative oath, stipulating that all Aes Sedai forever abdicate all secular authority, claims, and positions (since this concern would seem to be one of the main criteria for which the oaths arose- the fear of secular rulers of individual Aes Sedai or the White Tower as a whole interference and possible imperial intentions). That would of course require Elayne to hand over Caemlyn and Cairhien to a non-channeler, but Dyelin would do just fine as queen of Andor, and Galad indeed should have an even better claim to Cairhien than does she. That would also fit with their original apparent purpose as being servants rather than rulers. It would, indeed, make them much more similar to the Wise Ones.

What do you mean by "secular authority"? In Randland there is no established, outwardly visible religion. The White Tower doesn't engage in religious activity, or lead the world in worship. It guides the monarchs in an attempt to shape the world, it helps defend the Borderlands and prepares for the Last Battle (the Green Ajah's purpose), it assists in negotiations between countries (the purpose of the Grey Ajah), works as healers of the mind and body (Yellow Ajah) and busies itself with small projects and the concerns of the marginalised (the Blue). The White Tower is fundamtenally part of the secular world; it just reminds us of a religious institution from our point of view.

If you ban Aes Sedai from all positions of "secular authority" you're going to have a real problem when the Wheel turns full circle again and the latest incarnation of the Dragon has been barred from being the general commander of the world's military forces because he's an Aes Sedai.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 10:45 AM
What do you mean by "secular authority"? In Randland there is no established, outwardly visible religion. The White Tower doesn't engage in religious activity, or lead the world in worship. It guides the monarchs in an attempt to shape the world, it helps defend the Borderlands and prepares for the Last Battle (the Green Ajah's purpose), it assists in negotiations between countries (the purpose of the Grey Ajah), works as healers of the mind and body (Yellow Ajah) and busies itself with small projects and the concerns of the marginalised (the Blue). The White Tower is fundamtenally part of the secular world; it just reminds us of a religious institution from our point of view.

If you ban Aes Sedai from all positions of "secular authority" you're going to have a real problem when the Wheel turns full circle again and the latest incarnation of the Dragon has been barred from being the general commander of the world's military forces because he's an Aes Sedai.

I'm thinking specifically of political power in the sense of crowns, though also I suppose lesser ranks of nobility (so one shouldn't be both a Lord/Lady and an Aes Sedai either) when I speak of exclusion from political office. That would still allow them to serve as advisors to kings and queens, nor do I think that should necessarily even exclude them from military ranks. Rand is primarily a mix of Pontifex Maximus and Polemarch, more than emperor - you know, like a medieval Pope. He is also king of Illian, but he could easily turn that crown back over to Mattin Stepaneos without ill effect so long as Stepaneos agreed to bend to his will. But then Rand is after all a bit of an exception.

Thinking of the Aes Sedai as akin to priests and priestesses hardly seems far-fetched, they are after all basically priests of the Light, granted powers to both defend the Light against the forces of Darkness, and to aid the world in a more general way. Mind you that makes them rather more useful than actual priests, but Catholics do claim that priests and saints have magical powers of a sort too.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 11:44 AM
Just because they can't wear the crown doesn't mean they can't turn the person who is into a mask and wear that instead. Like they think they have been.

And the tower participates in the religious activities of the day more than anyone. If I am interpreting RJ's past quotes correctly...
The White Tower being an immediate source of 'miracles' and moral authority effectively eliminates the people's demand for an alternative religion.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm thinking specifically of political power in the sense of crowns, though also I suppose lesser ranks of nobility (so one shouldn't be both a Lord/Lady and an Aes Sedai either) when I speak of exclusion from political office. That would still allow them to serve as advisors to kings and queens, nor do I think that should necessarily even exclude them from military ranks. Rand is primarily a mix of Pontifex Maximus and Polemarch, more than emperor - you know, like a medieval Pope. He is also king of Illian, but he could easily turn that crown back over to Mattin Stepaneos without ill effect so long as Stepaneos agreed to bend to his will. But then Rand is after all a bit of an exception.

Thinking of the Aes Sedai as akin to priests and priestesses hardly seems far-fetched, they are after all basically priests of the Light, granted powers to both defend the Light against the forces of Darkness, and to aid the world in a more general way. Mind you that makes them rather more useful than actual priests, but Catholics do claim that priests and saints have magical powers of a sort too.

so basically you're speaking of abolishing the Gray and Blue, possibly also Green Ajah? Seeing as those three are most involved in world diplomacy, politics and if necessary battle with Darkspawn? and of course, the Brown and White can be meddlesome, digging away in the past and logic and contracts and stuff. You know, it's best to just make them all Yellow, that way they're *useful* Although, not all are equally talented so maybe there should be a Builder Ajah? you know, for city walls and moats and suchlike... I guess the Red can remain too, they can just expand from hunting just males who can channel to hunting all of them.

GonzoTheGreat
06-23-2011, 11:51 AM
I guess the Red can remain too, they can just expand from hunting just males who can channel to hunting all of them.Hunting all males? I thought that the Green had that task already.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 12:25 PM
Hunting all males? I thought that the Green had that task already.

:p

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 12:48 PM
Hunting all males? Very Aes Sedai, once the original reason for doing something is lost tweak it a bit and keep doing it with a passion.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 12:54 PM
so basically you're speaking of abolishing the Gray and Blue, possibly also Green Ajah? Seeing as those three are most involved in world diplomacy, politics and if necessary battle with Darkspawn? and of course, the Brown and White can be meddlesome, digging away in the past and logic and contracts and stuff. You know, it's best to just make them all Yellow, that way they're *useful* Although, not all are equally talented so maybe there should be a Builder Ajah? you know, for city walls and moats and suchlike... I guess the Red can remain too, they can just expand from hunting just males who can channel to hunting all of them.

How am I suggesting that? I said that they shouldn't rule directly as monarchs or nobles, not that they couldn't have any role in politics or diplomacy. The Blue and the Gray are just as useful as the Yellow and the Brown. Nor did I suggest that they should be excluded from war and all military functions, even military command. That would leave the Greens and the Reds with important roles. I fail to see how what I suggested was anything but a codification of the status quo ante Elayne.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 12:57 PM
How am I suggesting that? I said that they shouldn't rule directly as monarchs or nobles, not that they couldn't have any role in politics or diplomacy. The Blue and the Gray are just as useful as the Yellow and the Brown. Nor did I suggest that they should be excluded from war and all military functions, even military command. That would leave the Greens and the Reds with important roles. I fail to see how what I suggested was anything but a codification of the status quo ante Elayne.

you didn't, but that's where your suggestion is going to end up. you do see the progression of completely logical steps starting from banning AS involvement in high politics?

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:03 PM
you didn't, but that's where your suggestion is going to end up. you do see the progression of completely logical steps starting from banning AS involvement in high politics?

I guess I just see it as a simple separation of powers.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 01:12 PM
I guess I just see it as a simple separation of powers.

it's never quite as simple as that.

Zombie Sammael
06-23-2011, 01:13 PM
I guess I just see it as a simple separation of powers.

Yes but seperation of powers based along genetic lines is hardly fair, is it?

"But I don't wanna be Aes Sedai. I wanna be a princess."

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:18 PM
Yes but seperation of powers based along genetic lines is hardly fair, is it?

"But I don't wanna be Aes Sedai. I wanna be a princess."

Then accept severing, and vow not to get it healed.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:25 PM
Then accept severing, and vow not to get it healed.

Care to explain that to the dimwits like myself?

*edited to add
Oh I read it as serving, as in servant of all, and was totally lost.

Seems a bit harsh to impose something like that on someone who wants secular power but was born with the ability to channel.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 01:26 PM
Then accept severing, and vow not to get it healed.

lol, ant that will work? (non-physical) mutilation or power... hmm, why not HIDE the power? no-one's going to know. at first, and then later... well, later is later, maybe just fake a death and live happily on a comfy little pension somewhere out of the way still pulling all the strings.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:34 PM
lol, ant that will work? (non-physical) mutilation or power... hmm, why not HIDE the power? no-one's going to know. at first, and then later... well, later is later, maybe just fake a death and live happily on a comfy little pension somewhere out of the way still pulling all the strings.

Well I suppose you could always invert your weaves (though it would be rather difficult to explain how you learned that on your own - so I suppose you'd have to have accomplices in your illegal use of the power) and hide your ability, maybe use illusion to hide the fact that you weren't aging at a normal pace. It would, however, become rather obvious that you were a renegade channeler when you were well beyond your hundredth birthday and still not dead.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:37 PM
Care to explain that to the dimwits like myself?

*edited to add
Oh I read it as serving, as in servant of all, and was totally lost.

Seems a bit harsh to impose something like that on someone who wants secular power but was born with the ability to channel.

Well there is a rather obvious trade-off - most people can't expect to see their five hundredth birthday, Aes Sedai (if they get rid of the oaths) can.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 01:45 PM
hence, why I mentioned faking a death. you know, it probably won't even start as a conscious decision of the prince/princess, it'll be mommy and daddy who just can't give their precious little flower up... that would mean that the evil cousin will get the throne and we can't have that now can we? Well there is a rather obvious trade-off - most people can't expect to see their five hundredth birthday, Aes Sedai (if they get rid of the oaths) can. but what with all that lineage, you really think they'll never meddle? even if they don't want to meddle, they will be pulled in, you know. Exhibit A: Moiraine.

additionally, your option only goes for Sparkers. What about Learners? will they be allowed to remain in power as long as they don't tap their powers? seems rather unfair to the poor Sparkers, always being discriminated against for something that is life-threatening enough. and if you extend it to the Learners then are you instituting a sort of a Seeking Ajah? to comb through all royal families for the faintest trace of Power? even if it's about the level of Sorilea?

Kimon
06-23-2011, 01:57 PM
additionally, your option only goes for Sparkers. What about Learners? will they be allowed to remain in power as long as they don't tap their powers? seems rather unfair to the poor Sparkers, always being discriminated against for something that is life-threatening enough. and if you extend it to the Learners then are you instituting a sort of a Seeking Ajah? to comb through all royal families for the faintest trace of Power? even if it's about the level of Sorilea?

I'd imagine that they will eventually have a system in place like what we saw in the AoL, when Coumin mentioned that he had been passed over because he lacked the spark. That need not mean that non-sparkers shouldn't be allowed to channel, only that they would be given the option of choosing. But it seems clear that a return to universal testing is on the horizon, certainly Taim has made much more widespread use of searching for men who can channel than have the sisters. The female Aes Sedai should do likewise. The Seanchan have an even more systematic approach, but then obviously we all (or at least the vast majority of us) consider the result of their testing an abomination. You seem to think my suggestion that channelers should renounce claims of nobility similar to what the Seanchan do, but clearly I still fail to see it as being in the same ballpark.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 01:59 PM
It really does seem a little orwellian.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 02:02 PM
It really does seem a little orwellian.

I suppose I could see a connection to Brave New World, but how is that Orwellian?

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 02:07 PM
I'd imagine that they will eventually have a system in place like what we saw in the AoL, when Coumin mentioned that he had been passed over because he lacked the spark. That need not mean that non-sparkers shouldn't be allowed to channel, only that they would be given the option of choosing.in the long run... you hope. But in the short run? domestic wars involving the One Power and no Oaths, mark my words. But it seems clear that a return to universal testing is on the horizon, certainly Taim has made much more widespread use of searching for men who can channel than have the sisters, the female Aes Sedai should do likewise. The Seanchan have an even more systematic approach, but then obviously we all (or at least the vast majority of us) consider the result of their testing an abomination. You seem to think my suggestion that channelers should renounce claims of nobility similar to what the Seanchan do, but clearly I still fail to see it as being in the same ballpark.
I see a problem here because Randland is already a society where birth determines quite a lot of things. Born as a peasant or as a noble? there are gaps that cannot be breached, and the nobility is certainly endowed with the traditional "I'm better than everybody else" mentality. Why would they agree to give it up? in the contrary, I can easily see them trying to fight against what you propose with all their might (thus: domestic or trans-border wars as mentioned above).

Even in Randland, the nobility does not always hold all the levers, some merchants wield quite a lot of power as well. I can again very easily see the nobility demanding that merchants be applied with the same rules. and when merchants are, then also peasants.

now, if we were talking of a more egalitarian society where for example democracy was the standard way of governing, would you still advocate stilling for politicians? they can, after all be un-elected.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 02:08 PM
Presumably your restrictions on channelers would be enforced. Given the secretive nature of male channeling and the success of the kin I would guess such enforcement would require an extremely competent big brother and secret police.

What if some sparker refuses to give up secular power? Would they be severed (and likely die), tortured to accept binding, killed? Even if they are shielded and imprisoned that would require a lot of resources. I suppose they could be held in far madding, but still why bother?

ChubbyAiel
06-23-2011, 02:16 PM
And the tower participates in the religious activities of the day more than anyone. If I am interpreting RJ's past quotes correctly...
The White Tower being an immediate source of 'miracles' and moral authority effectively eliminates the people's demand for an alternative religion.

The One Power is a force of nature that can be harnessed, just like water pressure or gravity. The people of Randland never think in terms of "magic" or "miracles". Maybe many people don't see it as a strictly "natural" thing, but that doesn't mean they see its use as a religious phenomenon. In fact, the ones who do attach a religious aspect to it, the Whitecloaks, are opposed to the Aes Sedai because they see use of the One Power as blasphemy, but no one else in Randland seems to think in these terms.

As for "moral authority" - most people don't trust the Aes Sedai and many countries are outright hostile to them. The countries that do see them as a moral authority see them that way because they are trying to unite the Westlands against the Shadow, specifically the Blight, or because they think they can mediate between nations to bring peace from a point of relative neutrality. Those, again, are secular concerns and so even that authority is not derived from any claims on the ability to mediate between men and the Creator, or offer the correct way to worship or honour him.

I know this is only a tangential issue in the context of this thread, but I don't see the Aes Sedai as a religious group in any way. They aren't seen by the people as religious and they don't claim that for themselves. The don't lead people in prayer or offer sacrifices. They don't claim the Amyrlin is the Creator's Vicar on Earth and they don't claim to speak on his behalf. I've no doubt RJ based the Amyrlin Seat on the office of the Pope and the White Tower is analogous to the Vatican in the Vatican's political capacity in the Middle Ages, and the idea of Novices living in cells within a communal set-up is reminiscent of convents, but the similarities end there. Those things served as inspiration but RJ did not carry them through to make the WT a religious organisation.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 02:18 PM
in the long run... you hope. But in the short run? domestic wars involving the One Power and no Oaths, mark my words.
I see a problem here because Randland is already a society where birth determines quite a lot of things. Born as a peasant or as a noble? there are gaps that cannot be breached, and the nobility is certainly endowed with the traditional "I'm better than everybody else" mentality. Why would they agree to give it up? in the contrary, I can easily see them trying to fight against what you propose with all their might (thus: domestic or trans-border wars as mentioned above).

Even in Randland, the nobility does not always hold all the levers, some merchants wield quite a lot of power as well. I can again very easily see the nobility demanding that merchants be applied with the same rules. and when merchants are, then also peasants.

now, if we were talking of a more egalitarian society where for example democracy was the standard way of governing, would you still advocate stilling for politicians? they can, after all be un-elected.

In a democratic system, provided that term limitations were in place, such a division wherein channelers were barred from political office would be unnecessary, or at least less necessary. Elayne, in contrast (albeit it was not the case in Aviendha's vision), could be queen of Andor for the next few hundred years. That is one of the problems that separating out Aes Sedai from political power would avoid. The other problem is of the danger of Aes Sedai seeing themselves as denizens of a particular country rather than as servants of the entire world. The WT has indeed been doing what I have suggested as a simple matter of tradition, but it has only been possible because they have stayed aloof. As they move to reintegrate themselves more in world affairs, a new balance must be formed or else you run the risk of the Aes Sedai losing their sense of group identity and instead seeing themselves as citizens of a particular country first, rather than servants who serve the interests of the world as a whole. Renouncing direct political claims allows them to serve the world without being seen as potentially grabbing power personally.

Zombie Sammael
06-23-2011, 02:34 PM
The Egwene thread has now been threadjacked. I point this out purely for the irony value.

ChubbyAiel
06-23-2011, 02:37 PM
The Egwene thread has now been threadjacked. I point this out purely for the irony value.

If this was Facebook I would Like that comment.

Terez
06-23-2011, 02:41 PM
The Egwene thread has now been threadjacked. I point this out purely for the irony value.
I can't say I'm displeased.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 02:53 PM
In a democratic system, provided that term limitations were in place, such a division wherein channelers were barred from political office would be unnecessary, or at least less necessary. Elayne, in contrast (albeit it was not the case in Aviendha's vision), could be queen of Andor for the next few hundred years. That is one of the problems that separating out Aes Sedai from political power would avoid. The other problem is of the danger of Aes Sedai seeing themselves as denizens of a particular country rather than as servants of the entire world. The WT has indeed been doing what I have suggested as a simple matter of tradition, but it has only been possible because they have stayed aloof. As they move to reintegrate themselves more in world affairs, a new balance must be formed or else you run the risk of the Aes Sedai losing their sense of group identity and instead seeing themselves as citizens of a particular country first, rather than servants who serve the interests of the world as a whole. Renouncing direct political claims allows them to serve the world without being seen as potentially grabbing power personally.
but the Tower is internally the most democratic system we've seen in Randland. you would remove the possibility of a ruler being advised by a former fisherman or maid? you would instead make the royalty-based universe even more rigid?

another point I was wondering about: would you look only in the direct royal line or all noble lines? can't rule out all nobles in case there's a coup. Or the old line only produces Sparkers. and, if you include all nobles but retain some power to the Tower, then you simply cannot guarantee no meddling in politics from AS. If you would enforce severing as penalty for meddling in politics in such a scenario then it would be much too tempting for AS-internal strife to be presented as political meddling in the local arena. Or for the nobles of a country to accuse the AS adviser of a rival noble of having personal ambitions.

as I said, it's not quite as simple.
The Egwene thread has now been threadjacked. I point this out purely for the irony value.

don't worry, it'll turn back eventually. might be within the next few hours or the next few months, someone is bound to have a comment on her :p eventually.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 02:57 PM
To paraphrase nynaeve...

We should be a part of the world, not apart from it.

Seems Aes Sedai 3.0 have no desire for total separation

Kimon
06-23-2011, 03:18 PM
but the Tower is internally the most democratic system we've seen in Randland. you would remove the possibility of a ruler being advised by a former fisherman or maid? you would instead make the royalty-based universe even more rigid?



I haven't the slightest clue how you possibly got this idea from anything that I have written.

another point I was wondering about: would you look only in the direct royal line or all noble lines? can't rule out all nobles in case there's a coup. Or the old line only produces Sparkers. and, if you include all nobles but retain some power to the Tower, then you simply cannot guarantee no meddling in politics from AS. If you would enforce severing as penalty for meddling in politics in such a scenario then it would be much too tempting for AS-internal strife to be presented as political meddling in the local arena. Or for the nobles of a country to accuse the AS adviser of a rival noble of having personal ambitions.

All that I have suggested is that if you become Aes Sedai you relinquish the right to inherit claims of nobility. Everything beyond that is fair game. How is this a big change??

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 03:23 PM
It's a big change because it would be enforced.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 03:40 PM
I haven't the slightest clue how you possibly got this idea from anything that I have written.
If an AS is allowed to be a ruler, she/he will certainly have AS friends and advisers. Since AS are in Randland terms quite democratic, it's very likely that those friends might be from "lower birth". If channelers are strictly kept away from power, then whoever is in power will most probably not have contact with commoners on a daily basis.


All that I have suggested is that if you become Aes Sedai you relinquish the right to inherit claims of nobility. Everything beyond that is fair game. How is this a big change??Depending on the country, this is already in the laws. The difference is that you're proposing universal maiming in case an exception should arise. Which is a big deal from the local country point of view: what if they WANT a channeler as their ruler and the Tower is stepping in saying who can or cannot be a ruler? it's a big deal from the personal point of view for obvious reasons. And it's a big deal for the Tower's own integrity because when they start administering severing for simply being born to a certain family... to me, that's a slippery slope.

as for political power - let's say you get what you want, all AS swear to never be kings/queens. Ever heard of Richelieu? but then, you know, able to live 500 years or so.

what I'm trying to say is: the way you propose it, it won't have the result you want, because AS are still very powerful politically. If you want a stronger effect though, you're stepping on morally and ethically very wonky ground.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 04:07 PM
If an AS is allowed to be a ruler, she/he will certainly have AS friends and advisers. Since AS are in Randland terms quite democratic, it's very likely that those friends might be from "lower birth". If channelers are strictly kept away from power, then whoever is in power will most probably not have contact with commoners on a daily basis.


Non-Aes Sedai Kings and Queens have Aes Sedai advisors at present, some of whom doubtless are of common birth. That wouldn't change. I'm not suggesting keeping channelers from power, only openly wielding it themselves, what I suggested would not stop them from pulling strings or advising rulers, only from being the titled ruler. Rulers would have no more or less daily contact with commoners, because for all essential purposes, nothing would have changed since before Elayne there hadn't been an Aes Sedai ruler in over a thousand years.

Depending on the country, this is already in the laws. The difference is that you're proposing universal maiming in case an exception should arise. Which is a big deal from the local country point of view: what if they WANT a channeler as their ruler and the Tower is stepping in saying who can or cannot be a ruler? it's a big deal from the personal point of view for obvious reasons. And it's a big deal for the Tower's own integrity because when they start administering severing for simply being born to a certain family... to me, that's a slippery slope.

No one would be forced to be severed simply by birth, they would simply be forced to make the choice. Become an Aes Sedai and give up your titles, or remain a noble and give up your right to channel. Considering that one would wield an equal (if not superior), albeit different form of power by being Aes Sedai, this isn't much of a sacrifice. It is essentially the same as a nobleman entering the clergy. That does not remove all potential for advancement and access to power, it merely opens a different avenue of power. If anything you should merely be accusing me of turning the Aes Sedai into the Catholic Church.

as for political power - let's say you get what you want, all AS swear to never be kings/queens. Ever heard of Richelieu? but then, you know, able to live 500 years or so.

See above. My argument is simply that one individual should not be allowed to be both Head of State and Head of Church. Pick one or the other, King/Queen or Aes Sedai, noble or priest.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-23-2011, 04:34 PM
Non-Aes Sedai Kings and Queens have Aes Sedai advisors at present, some of whom doubtless are of common birth. That wouldn't change. I'm not suggesting keeping channelers from power, only openly wielding it themselves, what I suggested would not stop them from pulling strings or advising rulers, only from being the titled ruler. Rulers would have no more or less daily contact with commoners, because for all essential purposes, nothing would have changed since before Elayne there hadn't been an Aes Sedai ruler in over a thousand years.



No one would be forced to be severed simply by birth, they would simply be forced to make the choice. Become an Aes Sedai and give up your titles, or remain a noble and give up your right to channel. Considering that one would wield an equal (if not superior), albeit different form of power by being Aes Sedai, this isn't much of a sacrifice. It is essentially the same as a nobleman entering the clergy. That does not remove all potential for advancement and access to power, it merely opens a different avenue of power. If anything you should merely be accusing me of turning the Aes Sedai into the Catholic Church.



See above. My argument is simply that one individual should not be allowed to be both Head of State and Head of Church. Pick one or the other, King/Queen or Aes Sedai, noble or priest.

in that case I really don't see what the point is in your suggestion. If the advisors remain, and the possibility of hidden puppeteers remains, what's the big deal then if one of the shadow-puppeteers is put on the front lines for everybody to see clearly?

quite aside from that, I really dislike the church analogy. mainly because I dislike church in general but also because in the case of Aes Sedai it doesn't fully match, seeing as their main activity is not preaching and praying and molesting little altar boys.

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 04:59 PM
I dont really see the point either. People can choose for themselves the laws regarding secular matters in their own country.

The church analogy does make sense in a lit of ways though. For one thing, the catholic church held Europe together and maintained some sense of order and records after the fall of Rome. A lot like the tower and the breaking.

Oh and as a catholic...
Not f**cking funny.
Not against free speech, so say what you want, but I'm more than a little pissed.

Kimon
06-23-2011, 05:23 PM
in that case I really don't see what the point is in your suggestion. If the advisors remain, and the possibility of hidden puppeteers remains, what's the big deal then if one of the shadow-puppeteers is put on the front lines for everybody to see clearly?

quite aside from that, I really dislike the church analogy. mainly because I dislike church in general but also because in the case of Aes Sedai it doesn't fully match, seeing as their main activity is not preaching and praying and molesting little altar boys.

While not a perfect solution, I see it as a way to attempt, at least to some degree, to assert and enforce a balance of powers, so as to attempt to ensure that all power is not exclusively coming under the control of Aes Sedai. The fact that so many in the Hall attempted to maneuver to make Moiraine queen of Cairhien underscores their long standing desire to once again have an Aes Sedai openly in a position of political power. Likewise, though associated with the rebels, even Elaida's cronies wanted to to keep Elayne as queen of Andor. Without some statute limiting further access as illegal, I find it difficult to believe that the WT would not actively seek to put others of their own in control of countries, and to promote the political careers of Aes Sedai when possible now that the precedent had been set by Elayne. Indeed, one of the points that Egwene raised on why the hesitant testors should be wary about not passing Nynaeve was the fact that she was essentially the Queen of Malkier.

While allowing Aes Sedai to remain as advisors still allows them to wield considerable political power, this does at least come with some sense of balance. It is certainly true that Richelieu wielded considerable power, just as did other powerful bishops - Ambrose comes immediately to mind, but even with the degree to which they were able to influence and intimidate secular rulers, there was at least still some check on their power, a check which would have been lessened if they openly and in unfettered fashion had been able to wield absolute and unquestioned authority. Take for example Elaida. Sure, she was able to influence matters in Andor, but do you really think that Rand would have been able to escape Caemlyn in tEotW if she had been queen of Andor rather than Morgase?

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 05:27 PM
You know I think actually wielding power in the open would be a more effective check on power, as it would be the monarch under scrutiny.

Sei'taer
06-23-2011, 05:31 PM
mainly because I dislike church in general but also because in the case of Aes Sedai it doesn't fully match, seeing as their main activity is not preaching and praying and molesting little altar boys.

Oh and as a catholic...
Not f**cking funny.
Not against free speech, so say what you want, but I'm more than a little pissed.

Lol!

Terez
06-23-2011, 05:34 PM
If I was a Catholic, I'd be pissed too. Not because of that comment though - just on general principle.

Davian93
06-23-2011, 05:49 PM
If I was a Catholic, I'd be pissed too. Not because of that comment though - just on general principle.

THIS

The Unreasoner
06-23-2011, 06:08 PM
No...it's harry potter that's banned lol

David Selig
06-23-2011, 06:19 PM
An oath against Aes Sedai becoming Queens seems excessive to me and by itself won't achieve much to alleviate the fears towards channellers if the Third Oath is removed. The lack of Aes Sedai Queens didn't stop the Tower being the main political power in the Westlands for most of the last 3000 years, and in many ways being the power behind the thrones gave them more influence. IMO it should be up to each particular country whethey they'd accept such a monarch or not and whether she'd have to swear some extra oaths - like abdicating after 40 or 50 years maximum at the throne (to prevent someone ruling for centuries) or an oath that she won't place the Tower's interest above those of her realm or something to that effect.

I think a better proposal for changing the oaths in the short term is to add " except against channellers" to the Third Oath - the Aes Sedai aren't the only game in town anymore when it come to channelling and they can't allow themselves not to have the ability to use the Power against other channellers except as a last resort self defence. But the normal people would still be protected against One Power abuse (no t that there aren't ways around this, but that's a different topic), thus the PR problems caused by an outright removal of the Third Oath would be evaded.

Davian93
06-23-2011, 06:20 PM
An oath against Aes Sedai becoming Queens seems excessive to me and by itself won't achieve much to alleviate the fears towards channellers if the Third Oath is removed. The lack of Aes Sedai Queens didn't stop the Tower being the main political power in the Westlands for most of the last 3000 years, and in many ways being the power behind the thrones gave them more influence. IMO it should be up to each particular country whethey they'd accept such a monarch or not and whether she'd have to swear some extra oaths - like abdicating after 40 or 50 years maximum at the throne (to prevent someone ruling for centuries) or an oath that she won't place the Tower's interest above those of her realm or something to that effect.

I think a better proposal for changing the oaths in the short term is to add " except against channellers" to the Third Oath - the Aes Sedai aren't the only game in town anymore when it come to channelling and they can't allow themselves not to have the ability to use the Power against other channellers except as a last resort self defence. But the normal people would still be protected against One Power abuse (no t that there aren't ways around this, but that's a different topic), thus the PR problems caused by an outright removal of the Third Oath would be evaded.

Easy solution...we'll just standoff 2-3 miles and use heavy artillery to eliminate the channeling threat.

Ban al'Tee
06-24-2011, 12:39 AM
I don't hate Egwene.. oh sure, she pisses me off, but that is a character trait, mixed up with a plot device. I want to slap her upside the head and tell her to see the Light or perhaps just light.

Anyway, she has an issue, which is held in common, to varying degrees with other, admittedly mostly female characters in the WOT and that is that she cannot see the big picture. She is a young girl or perhaps young woman who has left her rural home and...<stuff happens>.. and now she is the closest thing to Queen of the World that there is.

So, while she has matured and grown a lot, she is still trapped in that loop that says that she must emulate her peers even as she surmounts them in the pecking order. She does or feels that she must behave as an Aes Sedai of a (recently) bygone era, rather than creating her own behavioral niche wherein AS are not the be-all and end-all or the world.

This will take time. Elayne evinces the same behavior with respect to Andor. Andor is important, but in the grand (TG) scheme of things, that importance wanes. The White Tower is critical, but not nearly so critical as is the reunification of men and women to combat the DO.

Tuon and Aviendha show the same parochial outlook as well. They could all take a lesson from Perrin who bends over backwards not to and not to appear to favor the 2 Rivers folk in any way. (If only he would extend that to Faile...)

Anyway, Egwene has to suck up her pride and follow, maybe not kneel, to Rand because he is trying to save the world, not just the reputation of some women on an island in soon to be Great Aravalon.

Eqwene, Elayne, Tuon and to an extent Aviendha need to see the big picture... Nynaeve has and she is infinitely more likable than she was initially.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 01:58 AM
Just for shits and giggles I ran the numbers of the poll on a standard four function...
If its a scale 2,1,0,-1,-2,
Mean is .333333
41% chance the overall view of Egwene is negative (and so 59% chance for positive)

However, just going by numbers of people, the chance that more than half of the people dislike her is only about three percent.

Bored, and frustrated with this asmodean clue ai I'm trying to do.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 02:02 AM
I don't hate Egwene.. oh sure, she pisses me off, but that is a character trait, mixed up with a plot device. I want to slap her upside the head and tell her to see the Light or perhaps just light.

Anyway, she has an issue, which is held in common, to varying degrees with other, admittedly mostly female characters in the WOT and that is that she cannot see the big picture. She is a young girl or perhaps young woman who has left her rural home and...<stuff happens>.. and now she is the closest thing to Queen of the World that there is.

So, while she has matured and grown a lot, she is still trapped in that loop that says that she must emulate her peers even as she surmounts them in the pecking order. She does or feels that she must behave as an Aes Sedai of a (recently) bygone era, rather than creating her own behavioral niche wherein AS are not the be-all and end-all or the world.

This will take time. Elayne evinces the same behavior with respect to Andor. Andor is important, but in the grand (TG) scheme of things, that importance wanes. The White Tower is critical, but not nearly so critical as is the reunification of men and women to combat the DO.

Tuon and Aviendha show the same parochial outlook as well. They could all take a lesson from Perrin who bends over backwards not to and not to appear to favor the 2 Rivers folk in any way. (If only he would extend that to Faile...)

Anyway, Egwene has to suck up her pride and follow, maybe not kneel, to Rand because he is trying to save the world, not just the reputation of some women on an island in soon to be Great Aravalon.

Eqwene, Elayne, Tuon and to an extent Aviendha need to see the big picture... Nynaeve has and she is infinitely more likable than she was initially.

good luck avoiding being labeled as a sexist lol. Agree on many points, but your phrasing seems to invite that sort of thing.

Not that I think you are sexist, just that some may at least claim to think you are.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 02:38 AM
While not a perfect solution, I see it as a way to attempt, at least to some degree, to assert and enforce a balance of powers, so as to attempt to ensure that all power is not exclusively coming under the control of Aes Sedai. The fact that so many in the Hall attempted to maneuver to make Moiraine queen of Cairhien underscores their long standing desire to once again have an Aes Sedai openly in a position of political power. Likewise, though associated with the rebels, even Elaida's cronies wanted to to keep Elayne as queen of Andor. Without some statute limiting further access as illegal, I find it difficult to believe that the WT would not actively seek to put others of their own in control of countries, and to promote the political careers of Aes Sedai when possible now that the precedent had been set by Elayne. Indeed, one of the points that Egwene raised on why the hesitant testors should be wary about not passing Nynaeve was the fact that she was essentially the Queen of Malkier.

While allowing Aes Sedai to remain as advisors still allows them to wield considerable political power, this does at least come with some sense of balance. It is certainly true that Richelieu wielded considerable power, just as did other powerful bishops - Ambrose comes immediately to mind, but even with the degree to which they were able to influence and intimidate secular rulers, there was at least still some check on their power, a check which would have been lessened if they openly and in unfettered fashion had been able to wield absolute and unquestioned authority. Take for example Elaida. Sure, she was able to influence matters in Andor, but do you really think that Rand would have been able to escape Caemlyn in tEotW if she had been queen of Andor rather than Morgase?

I think you're overlooking one little detail: while Aes Sedai can live a long time if they haven't taken the oaths, it does look like (for better or worse) Egwene does want to continue with the Oaths. I can't find the quote right now but one of the side-effects of the Oaths is sterility. Moiraine says in so in tEoTW - or rather, she says that Aes Sedai cannot get pregnant or something to that effect. And none of the Aes Sedai of the old cadre have any children, that we've seen. Whereas in the prologue we see LTT's children (dead, but they're there and he's been channeling for centuries so it's probably not a side-effect of channeling a long time, methinks) and of course we've the current pregnancies, all pre-Oaths.

So, let's say the status quo remains: AS are required to take the oaths, which have certain side-effects. as you agreed, most countries do have traditions, if not laws about AS and ruling. Let's say that an AS - one who has taken the Oaths - does gain the throne. he/she will not have any progeny, therefore after their death or abdication, someone not of their own line will follow. That, by the way, is probably the reason why generally Aes Sedai don't *want* to take the throne: what's the point if you're not doing it for your children?

It is my personal belief that absolute power doesn't exist for mere mortals - in Randland terms it doesn't even exist for the DO or the Creator, they're both dependent on each other. Moreso, no ruler has absolute power, not even a channeling ruler. They still have to follow the rules of governing, the rules of diplomacy and their own laws, otherwise I'm sure there's plenty of people ready and willing to take them down.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 02:47 AM
I dont really see the point either. People can choose for themselves the laws regarding secular matters in their own country.

The church analogy does make sense in a lit of ways though. For one thing, the catholic church held Europe together and maintained some sense of order and records after the fall of Rome. A lot like the tower and the breaking.

Oh and as a catholic...
Not f**cking funny.
Not against free speech, so say what you want, but I'm more than a little pissed.

don't get your panties in a bunch, Kimon mentioned the Catholic church, I'm against all churches including the atheist one (although, considering some of the churches aren't exactly uniform and therefore don't have altar boys, feel free to substitute that with some other ingenue).

I am aware that RJ set up the Tower as an analogy of the Catholic Church but from where I stand, he made the Tower so much better that, really, it doesn't match.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 02:58 AM
don't get your panties in a bunch

Not against free speech, so say what you want

I probably shouldn't have responded at all, I didn't really add anything. Although I was annoyed at the caricature of Catholicism that was just presented as a valid definition.

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2011, 04:22 AM
I probably shouldn't have responded at all, I didn't really add anything. Although I was annoyed at the caricature of Catholicism that was just presented as a valid definition.It is true that the bit about relocating the offending priests when found out to some other parish where they can continue their hobby was left out. Does it make you feel better now that I've added that?

For that matter: does it make you feel good that the Catholic Church actually had that as standard procedure for a very long time?

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 04:38 AM
It is true that the bit about relocating the offending priests when found out to some other parish where they can continue their hobby was left out. Does it make you feel better now that I've added that?

For that matter: does it make you feel good that the Catholic Church actually had that as standard procedure for a very long time?

while the Tower has just found and punished all of their Black Ajah. and in the past also, whenever one was discovered, there were harsh consequences. Anywys, like I said, I didn't mean to indicate only the Catholic church.

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2011, 04:40 AM
Oh, true, while I can be somewhat critical of Egwene, I would not want to claim that she is as bad as a Pope.

sleepinghour
06-24-2011, 04:43 AM
I can't find the quote right now but one of the side-effects of the Oaths is sterility. Moiraine says in so in tEoTW - or rather, she says that Aes Sedai cannot get pregnant or something to that effect. And none of the Aes Sedai of the old cadre have any children, that we've seen.
This has never been said in the books. It's more likely that Aes Sedai don't want children because they would have to watch them grow old and die, and be forced to gentle their own sons if they turn out to be channelers. All Randland women have access to an incredibly effective contraceptive called heartleaf tea, so there's no risk of accidental pregnancy either.

yks 6nnetu hing
06-24-2011, 04:50 AM
Take for example Elaida. Sure, she was able to influence matters in Andor, but do you really think that Rand would have been able to escape Caemlyn in tEotW if she had been queen of Andor rather than Morgase?

technically, if your solution would be put in place, Morgase wouldn't have been Queen:
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message
Morgase held herself straight. "Arrest me? On what charge? I cannot channel." No sooner were the words out of her mouth than she nearly clicked her tongue in exasperation. She should not have mentioned channeling; that she had put herself on the defensive was an indication of how flustered she was. It was true, what she had said, so far as it went. Fifty times trying to sense the True Source to find it once, and when found, twenty times attempting to open herself to saidar in order to catch a dribble once. A Brown sister named Verin had told her that there was hardly any need for the Tower to hold her until she learned to handle her tiny ability safely. The Tower did anyway, of course. Still, even that much ability to channel was outlawed in Amadicia, the penalty death. The Great Serpent ring on her hand that so fascinated Ailron now seemed hot enough to glow.

This has never been said in the books. It's more likely that Aes Sedai don't want children because they would have to watch them grow old and die, and be forced to gentle their own sons if they turn out to be channelers. All Randland women have access to an incredibly effective contraceptive called heartleaf tea, so there's no risk of accidental pregnancy either. it's possible I misremembered, I seem to remember Moiraine giving that as the main negative of becoming an AS: that they have no children.

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 05:05 AM
They have no children because of the reality of their situation. How does sterilization square with siuan and leane post stilling? They magically got better? Channeling isn't like an iud, and neither are the three oaths.

And I meant more that preaching, praying, and molesting are not the hallmarks of catholicism. I get that yks is speaking of all churches, but i think it's a little ridiculous to hold up the (fictional) white tower as a moral authority. In any case, people are fallible, and covering up failures rather than punishing them is always stupid, be it punishing molesters or failing in the defense of malkier (note that I am comparing the cover ups and not the crimes).

Catholicism really is nothing more than the tenets of the nicene creed

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2011, 05:12 AM
it's possible I misremembered, I seem to remember Moiraine giving that as the main negative of becoming an AS: that they have no children.I think that it was more the not having any chance of having a normal family life, which would also involve having a husband. And at least one of the reasons why she couldn't have that was that she was too busy hunting for the DR.

Edited to add:
Perhaps, on the non-WOT board, you would be able to point out to me where precisely in the Nicene Creed bishops, archbishops, cardinals and popes are mentioned?

The Unreasoner
06-24-2011, 05:17 AM
That's sort of my point. All of that is just ceremonial really. The church is anyone who holds a specific set of beliefs.

sleepinghour
06-24-2011, 05:23 AM
it's possible I misremembered, I seem to remember Moiraine giving that as the main negative of becoming an AS: that they have no children.
Accepted were granted a little leeway—by that time, you knew that you would watch a husband age and die, and your children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren, while you changed not at all—but novices were quietly discouraged from thinking about men or love, and kept away from men entirely.

Maybe it's this quote you were thinking of? It's from Moiraine's POV in NS.

However, there's nothing to suggest Aes Sedai aren't physically capable of having children; there was a suggestion by someone (Sheriam?) that Aes Sedai should have children with gentled men to prevent culling. Faile also spoke of a historical Aes Sedai who had seven children with a man she loathed.

GonzoTheGreat
06-24-2011, 05:49 AM
Sheriam?

"I think not,"Verin replied calmly. "Even if we could find women willing to bear children by gentled men, there is no guarantee the children would be able to channel, or would be girls. I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused."

sleepinghour
06-24-2011, 06:01 AM
Sheriam?

"I think not,"
Thanks, I couldn't find that quote. The preceding part is probably why I thought of Sheriam:

"Year by year," Verin continued, "we find fewer and fewer girls who can be taught to channel. Sheriam believes we may have spent the last three thousand years culling the ability out of humankind by gentling every man who can channel we find. The proof of it, she says, is how very few men we do find."

Terez
06-24-2011, 08:14 AM
I probably shouldn't have responded at all, I didn't really add anything.
This. 1000 times this.

ChubbyAiel
06-24-2011, 08:52 AM
Perhaps, on the non-WOT board, you would be able to point out to me where precisely in the Nicene Creed bishops, archbishops, cardinals and popes are mentioned?

It would be an interpretation of the part that reads, "We believe in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

Bishops are the spiritual successors of the Apostles in Catholic tradition. Archbishops, cardinals and the pope are all types of bishops, really. Peter was first among the Apostles, it makes sense that the modern successors of those Apostles would have a leader among them, in this case, the Bishop of Rome. So it is there in the Nicene Creed, depending on your interpretation of an "Apostolic Church".

I didn't write this on the Non-WoT board because I didn't think a single-post answer would warrant a new thread.

Kimon
06-24-2011, 09:24 AM
It would be an interpretation of the part that reads, "We believe in one, holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

Bishops are the spiritual successors of the Apostles in Catholic tradition. Archbishops, cardinals and the pope are all types of bishops, really. Peter was first among the Apostles, it makes sense that the modern successors of those Apostles would have a leader among them, in this case, the Bishop of Rome. So it is there in the Nicene Creed, depending on your interpretation of an "Apostolic Church".

I didn't write this on the Non-WoT board because I didn't think a single-post answer would warrant a new thread.

The Bishop of Rome was but one of the 5 Patriarchs, along with Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. The reason two (Rome and Constantinople) of those five rose to pre-eminence is simple. The other three cities were conquered and converted by the Caliphate. That left two powerful bishoprics, one under the direct control of the emeperor (Constantinople), and one outside of imperial control (Rome). Hence the schism - the east became Orthodox, and in the west the Popes seized control of the vacuum left by the absence of the empire to replace imperial authority with ecclesiastical authority.

Don't be so sure about Peter, there's not much in the way of evidence for him actually being the leader of the early church in Rome, his presence may well have been a later forgery to add credence to Rome's claim to universal control of the church. We do now that there was a community there early on, but it was small, and they may have been terrorists - Nero might well have been right about the Great Fire.

ChubbyAiel
06-24-2011, 10:07 AM
If we're going to debate Church history, now might be the time to move over to the Non-WoT board. I'll see you over yonder if you want to start the thread... Can't say I'm moved to start it myself and won't hold it against you if you can't be bothered either :)

DahLliA
06-27-2011, 07:06 AM
and here we were moving posts and not letting people bash Egwene where they want. making rules and arguing.

when all we needed to do was start talking about church.

can we chalk this down to one more thing organized religion took the fun out of? ;)

fdsaf3
06-28-2011, 01:24 PM
Just for shits and giggles I ran the numbers of the poll on a standard four function...
If its a scale 2,1,0,-1,-2,
Mean is .333333


There's no reason to assume that people who love Egwene feel as positively relative to zero as people who hate her feel negatively, i.e. people who love Egwene might be scored a 5 and people who hate her might be scored a -8. Something to think about.

Anyway, my opinion of Egwene is that she's annoying but necessary. To me, she represents a lot of my frustration with the novels since the beginning of the series. I know RJ had a gender balance thing going on, but it just didn't work for me. Aes Sedai were mysterious and scared the living crap out of everyone in Eye of the World, but they weren't arrogant like Egwene is.

If RJ's point is that we now understand the institution whereas before we were only exposed to what people thought they knew about Aes Sedai, ok, I get it. I just think the treatment of the White Tower in the series makes it pretty hard for me to take Egwene seriously. I want to like her for being intelligent and a strong leader, but the whole White Tower development gets in the way.

The Unreasoner
06-28-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm aware of the possibility of different degrees of Egwene loving/hating, that's why I ran the second set of numbers.

And the Aes Sedai have always been arrogant, at least since tgh, Egwene just comes off as pompous. Almost like Aes Sedai confidence emulated by two rivers stubborn outsider.

Zombie Sammael
06-28-2011, 02:54 PM
I was planning to start an Egwene praising thread at some point after my reread with some of the stronger examples of her behaving in a positive (or what I consider to be positive) light. If I am still allowed to what with this being "The Egwene Thread" perhaps I could post it with a "Rank Egwene 1-10" poll which would give you some more idea of the mean positive/negative on the character.

The Unreasoner
06-28-2011, 05:50 PM
[following two posts moved from Tigraine thread (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=153369#poststop) - Terez]

Egwene is relatively high, but up til now I would put even people like Thom higher due to his almost guaranteed saving of Rand. All that Egwene had done or accomplished really hasn't been imperative considering the big picture. Take her out and there are a multitude of different acceptable paths and branches where the big picture would be fine. I would even put Asmodean higher than Egwene, considering his teachings and the fact that he was really the only candidate for the job.

My statements on Egwene on this are not an attempt to bash her. They demonstrate my opinion on how a very important character to the story, with all of her influences and accomplishments -- hasn't been all that important to the Pattern regarding the core of Rand and his survival and fight against the Shadow. Which really isn't surprising given her...motivations and desires. This very well could change (and change in a big way) come AMoL. I would expect it to, given how ToM left off.

I think you may be oversimplifying characters like Egwene. much as I dislike her, she serves a role independent of the fight with the DO, apparently uniting female channelers. Mat serves a role also independent of the fight, bridging two cultures. they may all serve in some way in the fight itself, but after the fight, they serve a further purpose. any and every random death scenario for rand could have a different person saving him, and giving whichever people actually save him a superlative role in the pattern is a little ridiculous.

also in response to toss the dice

Toss the dice
06-29-2011, 12:33 AM
I think you may be oversimplifying characters like Egwene. much as I dislike her, she serves a role independent of the fight with the DO, apparently uniting female channelers. Mat serves a role also independent of the fight, bridging two cultures. they may all serve in some way in the fight itself, but after the fight, they serve a further purpose. any and every random death scenario for rand could have a different person saving him, and giving whichever people actually save him a superlative role in the pattern is a little ridiculous.

I disagree. On the topic of the main goal of the WoT, the main THING which is the Light winning Tarmon Gaidon - Rand (along with Mat and Perrin as lesser requirements) are absolutely essential. They are all that really matter. If Rand dies it's all over. And supposedly the same with Mat and Perrin.

Since Rand is all that matters to have a chance to be victorious, his life is all that matters. As long as he keeps on surviving until the Last Battle, hope remains alive. How could Egwene be more important to the only thing that matters than someone who saved Rand's life? Because she united female channelers? The consequences of uniting the female channelers is all maybe and might; conditional things that don't have anything to do with Rand. They aren't required for the Light to win. Rand's life up to Tarmon Gaidon is.

I agree, someone else could have saved Rand in Whitebridge (and the other times). But they didn't, Thom did. It happened and directly saved the world, as opposed to conditional and speculative "threads" like uniting female channelers. Mat is the exact same way with his bridging of two cultures. Maybe and might. Also, both of them serving a further purpose AFTER the fight is completely worthless to this issue. It means nothing. Important sure, important to history and the world post-LB, but Tarmon Gaidon is over and the world is once again free of the Dark One. There is a big difference between being highly influential and important to mankind -- and being ESSENTIAL.

A somewhat similar concept is the White Tower being whole and flourishing AFTER the Last Battle. As it stands, the only thing that matters to the White Tower is that Tarmon Gaidon can be won. If Tarmon Gaidon is lost everything is lost, including the White Tower. Many Aes Sedai in the WoT don't seem to understand this concept. They haven't seemed to realize that putting all of their eggs in one basket is for the best -- help Rand and the Light win.

If they win, THEN they can do whatever they please, pull their strings and make the Tower glorious. Egwene and Mat can then bask in the relatively infinitely minor subjects of having united female channelers and fostering culture relations. The world belongs to mankind once again and all is well.

There will almost certainly still be wars and conflicts - but a thing of men, not the Dark One. The great men and women of the Pattern can then start to be kings and queens, conquerors and generals and leaders. Your Artur Hawkwings, Mabriam en Shareed's, Caraighan Maconar's. Until the next Age, the next time the Dark One has to be dealt with.

Until then, Rand and consequently his life, is everything. That's my opinion on this subject and some of my poorly translated thought processes on the matter.

The Unreasoner
06-29-2011, 01:08 AM
I think it is impossible to realistically evaluate such things. A thousand random assassination attempts could have been prevented by every conceivable character. Joe Randlander psychopath could have wanted to kill rand, maybe could have had a realistic opportunity, but instead decided to join a random bandit of carridin's terrorist cells in murandy. maybe he would have even left the cell to go after rand but was killed by bryne's army, who was where and when it was because of egwene.

i agree that rand's life is paramount, but to give thom such credit... I mean, every possible assassination attempt's likliness times the proportion of credit a character can claim would have to be calculated, and each character's summation could then be compared. maybe in the final reckoning some saddlemaker in baerlon is the greatest protector of rand.

edited to add- no clue why my name is the title.

Kimon
06-29-2011, 01:22 AM
I disagree. On the topic of the main goal of the WoT, the main THING which is the Light winning Tarmon Gaidon - Rand (along with Mat and Perrin as lesser requirements) are absolutely essential. They are all that really matter. If Rand dies it's all over. And supposedly the same with Mat and Perrin.

Since Rand is all that matters to have a chance to be victorious, his life is all that matters. As long as he keeps on surviving until the Last Battle, hope remains alive. How could Egwene be more important to the only thing that matters than someone who saved Rand's life? Because she united female channelers? The consequences of uniting the female channelers is all maybe and might; conditional things that don't have anything to do with Rand. They aren't required for the Light to win. Rand's life up to Tarmon Gaidon is.

I agree, someone else could have saved Rand in Whitebridge (and the other times). But they didn't, Thom did. It happened and directly saved the world, as opposed to conditional and speculative "threads" like uniting female channelers. Mat is the exact same way with his bridging of two cultures. Maybe and might. Also, both of them serving a further purpose AFTER the fight is completely worthless to this issue. It means nothing. Important sure, important to history and the world post-LB, but Tarmon Gaidon is over and the world is once again free of the Dark One. There is a big difference between being highly influential and important to mankind -- and being ESSENTIAL.

A somewhat similar concept is the White Tower being whole and flourishing AFTER the Last Battle. As it stands, the only thing that matters to the White Tower is that Tarmon Gaidon can be won. If Tarmon Gaidon is lost everything is lost, including the White Tower. Many Aes Sedai in the WoT don't seem to understand this concept. They haven't seemed to realize that putting all of their eggs in one basket is for the best -- help Rand and the Light win.

If they win, THEN they can do whatever they please, pull their strings and make the Tower glorious. Egwene and Mat can then bask in the relatively infinitely minor subjects of having united female channelers and fostering culture relations. The world belongs to mankind once again and all is well.

There will almost certainly still be wars and conflicts - but a thing of men, not the Dark One. The great men and women of the Pattern can then start to be kings and queens, conquerors and generals and leaders. Your Artur Hawkwings, Mabriam en Shareed's, Caraighan Maconar's. Until the next Age, the next time the Dark One has to be dealt with.

Until then, Rand and consequently his life, is everything. That's my opinion on this subject and some of my poorly translated thought processes on the matter.

In a sense this is a matter of what you consider to have been, or will be, of greater significance in the victory of the Light - the schism or the reunification of the WT. The schism facilitated Rand's rise to power, since the Aes Sedai were forced to focus on dealing with each other rather than focusing just on trying to control what Rand was doing, and hence stopping him from doing what was needed - say like conquering large chunks of the world, hunting down the Forsaken, and creating the BT. The reunification likely will be essential more for safeguarding the world from the Seanchan after the victory, than for ensuring the victory itself. It may well be of significant importance in the victory as well, but without the schism, could the victory have been even possible?

Hence, in that sense, even Elaida, in a rather ironic way, might well be argued to have played a more important role in the Light's victory than has Egwene.

Toss the dice
06-29-2011, 01:45 AM
I think it is impossible to realistically evaluate such things. A thousand random assassination attempts could have been prevented by every conceivable character. Joe Randlander psychopath could have wanted to kill rand, maybe could have had a realistic opportunity, but instead decided to join a random bandit of carridin's terrorist cells in murandy. maybe he would have even left the cell to go after rand but was killed by bryne's army, who was where and when it was because of egwene.

i agree that rand's life is paramount, but to give thom such credit... I mean, every possible assassination attempt's likliness times the proportion of credit a character can claim would have to be calculated, and each character's summation could then be compared. maybe in the final reckoning some saddlemaker in baerlon is the greatest protector of rand.

edited to add- no clue why my name is the title.

I agree with this, I just wrote a way too long post on this very thing.

But also, I think you have to draw the line somewhere. I drew the line at definitives vs conditionals. If you truly included everything, all maybes and mights - the very concept of ranking people important to the Pattern becomes pointless. Anyone could argue anything, there is a nearly infinite number of potential answers and saviors, a nearly infinite number of conditional branches and pathways regarding anything. For the sake of the rankings and because I am a mortal being, I decided to go with the unrefutable, non-conditional topics. In this case, there is only one of these that directly and unequivocally matters to Rand and therefore the fate of the world. His life. The simple fact that he isn't dead yet. Of course, the issue of Rand dying could easily get complex when it comes to saving the world in AMoL, quite aside from any technicalities. This is more of a general thing, or up to this point in the series.

To sum up this concept:

Rand is dead = world is fucked

Rand is alive = world is not fucked

It all boils down to that. If Rand is still alive, the Light can still win. If Rand is dead, it is game over. For sure.

Toss the dice
06-29-2011, 02:07 AM
In a sense this is a matter of what you consider to have been, or will be, of greater significance in the victory of the Light - the schism or the reunification of the WT. The schism facilitated Rand's rise to power, since the Aes Sedai were forced to focus on dealing with each other rather than focusing just on trying to control what Rand was doing, and hence stopping him from doing what was needed - say like conquering large chunks of the world, hunting down the Forsaken, and creating the BT. The reunification likely will be essential more for safeguarding the world from the Seanchan after the victory, than for ensuring the victory itself. It may well be of significant importance in the victory as well, but without the schism, could the victory have been even possible?

Hence, in that sense, even Elaida, in a rather ironic way, might well be argued to have played a more important role in the Light's victory than has Egwene.

That's very true, the schism was a big deal and very well could have allowed the Light to ultimately win. Some interesting stuff. I would think someone could actually make a huge Pattern tree of everything that has been tied to or has lead to everything else, on-screen in the series. Maybe even include say one possible alternative for every branch, using the best guess.

The results could be surprising. Maybe Bela really was the greatest villain next to the Dark One.

GonzoTheGreat
06-29-2011, 04:46 AM
Nitpick: Mat has saved Rand's life too. He definitely did that in TEOTW, when Rand had blinded himself with a lightning stroke. A few other cases (preventing them from being taken by Turak's soldiers in Falme, killing Couladin, to name some) may also qualify.

Toss the dice
06-29-2011, 05:42 AM
Nitpick: Mat has saved Rand's life too. He definitely did that in TEOTW, when Rand had blinded himself with a lightning stroke. A few other cases (preventing them from being taken by Turak's soldiers in Falme, killing Couladin, to name some) may also qualify.

There's actually several, at the very least. I forgot about Mat saving Rand from Shiaine in the barn. Lanfear possibly, when she Healed him at the end of TGH. Nynaeve was iffy in TFoH when she consumed Ravhin in fire. Definately Damer/Corele/Samitsu/Cadsuane in ACoS after Fain slashed him with the dagger. Debatable concerning Moridin's helping of Rand at Shadar Logoth. I think I'd count that one. Rand was pretty screwed when Moridin helped him up.

The Unreasoner
06-29-2011, 11:31 AM
I mean maybe the red ajah deserve some credit. After all, without them, would thom have gone with Moiraine?

Toss the dice
06-29-2011, 01:20 PM
I mean maybe the red ajah deserve some credit. After all, without them, would thom have gone with Moiraine?

Thom's entire background seems suited specifically so he would be in the position to travel with the boys out of the Two Rivers and help them with his impressive skills.

Lightning
07-01-2011, 02:28 AM
I was planning to start an Egwene praising thread at some point after my reread with some of the stronger examples of her behaving in a positive (or what I consider to be positive) light. If I am still allowed to what with this being "The Egwene Thread" perhaps I could post it with a "Rank Egwene 1-10" poll which would give you some more idea of the mean positive/negative on the character.

Dude you'r gonna have to extend your scale WAAAAY over on the negative side for it to work. -10 just won't cut it for me.

Zombie Sammael
07-01-2011, 04:02 AM
Dude you'r gonna have to extend your scale WAAAAY over on the negative side for it to work. -10 just won't cut it for me.

It's 0 to 10. 5 is neutrality. 10 is love. 0 is soul-searingly burning hatred of the kind that makes you want to extinguish her and everyone she's ever met so that not even the memory remains. If you actually want more than that, why are you even still reading the books?

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 12:37 PM
i used this as i hate her but she seems to have good intentions at first evwen if she messes them up later

alleluia_cone
08-24-2011, 01:15 PM
I was planning to start an Egwene praising thread at some point after my reread with some of the stronger examples of her behaving in a positive (or what I consider to be positive) light. If I am still allowed to what with this being "The Egwene Thread" perhaps I could post it with a "Rank Egwene 1-10" poll which would give you some more idea of the mean positive/negative on the character.

There seems to be so many different approaches to this topic but my thing is that I simply do not enjoy reading her chapters very much, largely on the basis of her character and personality. It has little to do with her relative worth to the cause of the Light or anything so highfalutin, much less her intentions. I imagine there are many like me in this particular. I feel this goes over the head of many who defend her. Really, it's quite possible to simply detest a character without having to find some justification beyond the simple fact that you find said character the literary equivalent of nails on a chalkboard.

confused at birth
08-24-2011, 01:20 PM
something about the gawyn egwene dream relationship bugged me for a while and i just realised what it is
at no point did she look down and think well those arent mine, so one of two things

her mind filled in the blanks for him which would be embarrassing if it happens every time if you get stuck in someones dreams and they want to see you naked.:eek:
or he has been a bad boy and watched her having a bath:D

either way he appears to know exactly what she looks like now:p

Dewairah
09-01-2011, 12:32 AM
Quite brilliant...right up to the point where she got herself captured and gave her enemy a huge hostage. And she was such a moron on actually executing the plan that she didnt even think to hide her weaves through inversion. I mean, how stupid is that?

So great that Tyrion Lannister plagiarised it.

Or.. did she steal it from the imp?? :p:D

Davian93
09-01-2011, 08:29 AM
So great that Tyrion Lannister plagiarised it.

Or.. did she steal it from the imp?? :p:D

To what are you referring to? If its a harbor chain, those were actually real...medieval Constantinople had one for example to protect the Golden Horn from naval actions.

I'm lost on the reference right now...

Charlz Guybon
09-02-2011, 08:18 PM
I just voted She's Alright and was surprised to see that the positive votes top 50%.

confused at birth
09-02-2011, 08:53 PM
was surprised to see that the positive votes top 50%.

that is mostly because most of the people that hate her no matter what she does dont seem to come here.

i just hate her for who she is and what she ends up doing not for what she tried to do in first place before her natural stupidity takes over.
she would be fine if she could just be someone else for once in her life.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 03:26 AM
Here is another "noob!" How about another round? I just read this thread and will post a few comments.

She, in theory, comes up with a great idea to turn the chain into Cuendillar (nevermind that she physically tortured someone to learn how to make cuendillar and then passed it off as her own invention...that's another side point of her hypocrisy)

At least Mat is smart enough to know not to lead from the front (as he's actually read Sun Tzu) but Egwene just has to be the big hero and do it all herself.


Rand had Lanfear hand him Asmodean; and he kept Semihrage alive (I still cannot understand why). Nynaeve and Elayne were the ones who broke Moghedian. And Egwene received a trained damane. So, don't blame her for torture.

At best, it was a common flaw between Rand and Egwene. Both should have had a rule of execution by balefire regarding any of the Foresaken. Then let the DO raise new ones. Tiam would have been a nice recruit.

Let's just say she's a bit too high and mighty from the get-go for me right off the bat. And it only gets worse from there on out.

In TEotW, Egwene was the weakest of the group. She was a liability and a burden. She was insecure, crying, needing help, and rescued a few times over. The only trait she exhibited was stubbornness to leave the Two Rivers and eagerness to become Aes Sedai after learning that she could. Are there any specific references to the "too high and mighty" claim in TEotW?

… the Dragon Reborn, and she has no intention at all of letting him be the leader, as that would require her to submit to his authority.

Does he want her to submit to his authority? He only wants her to help him win TG. And after his Dragonmount experience, Rand was beyond the failed policy of requiring obedience and fealty.

Rand is capable of making mistakes, yes. Every leader is.

However, if the prophecies are correct, then no leader apart from Rand has any chance at all of preventing the DO from breaking out.
So Egwene has two options:
1. Accept Rand as leader and hope he'll do well enough.
2. Do not accept Rand as leader and accept the consequence: a victory for the Shadow.


Sorry; but I thought all the people under the Light accepted Rand as the Dragon Reborn; and recognized him as their savior. And many people died to keep his hide intact despite his "blindness." I don't recall any instance where Egwene doubted that choice.

There seems to be confusing the acceptance of Rand as the Dragon Reborn and total and utter obedience to his will and unformulated plans.

she's basically a slightly more political version of Elaida at this point.

Wow!
- Building trust and extending bridges as opposed to sowing fear and distrust between the Ajahs.
- Accepting that Rand as the Dragon Reborn must fulfill the prophecies to save the world as opposed to caging him, torturing him, breaking his will, and letting the world crumble while Elaida finished building her palace.
- Opening new sources of WT initiates and allowing hundreds of new novices in as opposed to seclusion and even demoting sisters.

I'll leave it at that not to bore you all with other examples. But putting Egwene and Elaida in the same bracket is not easily justified or proven.

Rand didn't really bother to explain to her why he thought it a good idea to break the seals, and he even said he had no plan for what to do after. What sane person would not question that? And what's up with this attitude that Rand has some sort of absolute authority on how the Last Battle should go down? It's silly.

Thank you! Exactly the point one needs to consider. When leaders meet, they discuss. Even leaders at the top of the hierarchy tend to explain things to their subordinates. So, Rand came to the WT and threw a bombshell on them; and set them an appointment in a month's time.

Look at it this way, even if Egwene trusted Rand and wanted to follow him, she couldn't say it publicly. The Tower and Aes Sedai were still tending their wounds of division and strife. An immediate acceptance of Rand's ambiguous plan and negating the WT 's role in TG would have had the Hall deposing Egwene on the spot.

Rand knows that he cannot succeed without Egwene's help. He laments his previous sealing of the bore with the 100 companions because Saidar was not used alongside Saidin. And everyone knows that winning TG requires circles of males and females to effectively combat the dreadlords … Cadsuane's defense of Rand and Nyaeve during the cleansing is a clear example. All the remaining Foresaken (except 2) took part in the battle and failed.

Well, for one, Breaking the Seals doesnt free the DO as Egwene seems to think...it just brings them back to the same situation as the time of The Strike. Egwene, the Watcher of Said Seals, should at least have a basic understanding of that.

Also, why is it silly to think that the chosen one and reborn Leader of the Light be in charge of the Last Battle? Its kinda his prophecized role in all this.

And at the time of LTT's strike on Shayol Ghul, the world was on the brink of defeat. The Shadow was about to ravage the last bastions of the Light. Wouldn't that give one pause to think through the plan carefully?

What are you basing this on? The Seals have crumbled and 4 are already gone...and yet no ripping loose has occurred. … There are no indications that breaking the remaining seals will have any affect other than to bring them back to the same status as the time of The Strike. Breaking them and attacking before the forces of the Light are too weak to even mount an attack is probably a smart move. ....they need to strike and strike fast...before it is too late. Egwene's moronic idea to form a working group to discuss it forever is just as brutally stupid as Latra Posae's refusal to assist LTT during the AoL.

The books show an increased influence of the DO as more seals have broken. So, breaking the remaining seals will increase the DO's reach in the world.

Rand's plan to attack before the forces of the light are too weak is the plan. But he needs to convince the soldiers and followers and explain the role of each. That he has not done at all.

Egwene does not want to rule by committee. She just wants to understand what the plan is. Is that too much to ask? If she was so totally against Rand, why did she make all the preparations for the appointment at the Fields? Wouldn't Rand be at the meeting as the Dragon Reborn, recognized by all as the savior hope of mankind?

Comparing Egwene to Latra Posae is unfair. Egwene doesn't have a plan to object to; whereas Latra undermined a feasible plan.

Second, the question of who is in command. ………. Egwene was troubled by the fact that sisters had sworn allegiance to Rand. She needs to accept the fact that all of them, including her, should be swearing allegiance to the Dragon.

No one seems to questions Rand's command in TG. The reservations are about his battle plan.

The Dragon Reborn isn't asking them to swear allegiance! Why does this keep coming up. Rand moved beyond requiring obedience. If he wanted allegiance, he would have met Egwene somewhere other than her power seat. Rand's clear intentions and visit to the WT say that he wants their help and assistance, not their oaths of fealty.

The trouble with that is that Egwene had until recently no reason to believe that Rand knew what he was doing beyond relying on luck.
.

Where I fault Egwene is that instead of trying to make sure Nynaeve confoms to being a good obedient Aes Sedai she should be talking to the woman and talking in what she says not just casually dismissing anything that does not fit with her world view.
.

Saying that how hard would it have been for Nynaeve to simply tell Egwene that her view of Rand is clearly out of date and that he is a lot more knowlegable that Egwene believes.

I suspect that it will only be when Egwnene meets Rand again and I beleive that he will thank her for gathering a big chunk of the forces of the light together, as he just didn't have time to do it, that Egwene will finally realise that her view of Rand is out of date. I can see it a bit like the scene where Tuon finally meets the Band and sees Mat planning a battle that she finally realises that the charming rogue she had Mat pegged as is in fact a lot more complicated not to mention formidable and dangerous.

Egwene's meetings with Nynaeve in T'AR are mostly off screen. To assume that Egwene was totally ignorant of Rand's situation is misleading. She hadn't met him in a long time; but she knew some things that were happening.

As to Nynaeve, Rand asked her to speak well of him to Egwene; and I think she did.

And I wholeheartedly agree that the second meeting between them should bind them in a common effort to seal the bore more effectively than LTT's effort 3000 years earlier.

Cadsuane was one of my favorite characters until the last book or so. I posted earlier that I thought rand purposefully didn't tell her why he wanted to break the seals, and I am annoyed she basically became his puppet with regards to the world leaders. She shouldn't be so passionate that she forgets to stop and think.

Isn't that part of what Egwene is being vilified for, "Stopping and thinking" on Rand's plan with the seals?

she isn't though. she just thinks that since she's the allmighty, allknowing Amyrlin she will be the one to figure out how to save the world.

problem is she has no clue whatsoever. and she's more worried about having the WT control the world after TG than actually finding out how to win it.

Egwene is more aware of her failures, weaknesses, and fragile situation than you portray. She is a dreamer who knows that the tower is in danger. And her past failures still haunt her. And her concern is not post-TG. The WT is essential for Rand to win TG. Only the combined efforts of Saidin and Saidar can seal the bore; and mixed circles are required to face the armies and dreadlords. If the WT was so negligible in TG, why was one of the Foresaken charged with residence and infiltration? And why was the tower broken with the Black Ajah and Foresaken working to keep it divided?

And we tend to link dead forsaken with Rand. But in effect, the WT and Aes Sedai have neutralized 2 of them; and have foiled many of their Plans. So, the WT has actually served the Dragon's cause despite its state of weakness.

This seems to be the whole theme of the struggle, unity over division. The DO is sowing division everywhere to weaken his opponents.

Egwene would have had more options if she had bothered pursuing them. For months she could have gone to seek out Rand, or send a search party with an invitation to talk at his convenience. But the whole time she decided that checking the laundry lists of her army camp had priority over getting involved in discussing the fate of the world.
Now time has run out for her, and any contributions she might make are boiled down to the rather simple three options: "she is with Rand, she is against Rand (and thus with the DO) or she stands aside during TG".

That is because she was very blatantly failing to pay attention, and deliberately did not believe anything which penetrated her awareness anyway.

Rand showed that he knew what he was about better than anyone else when he left the Stone and gathered the Aiel to him, where the Great Expert Moiraine was advising him to charge headlong at an entrenched Forsaken.
Rand showed that he knew what he was doing when he trapped Asmodean to serve as his teacher. True, Egwene did not know about that because she paid not enough attention (unlike Moiraine), but that's her fault, not his.
Rand showed that he knew what he was doing when he ousted Sammael from Illian, where the best the Salidar AS could come up with against that situation was not sending an embassy.

On the other hand, Egwene really does not have any real reason to think that Egwene knows what she is doing. And, perhaps just as importantly, Rand does not have any reason to think that Egwene might have a valuable insight into this problem at all. I mean, it's not as if she has given it any thought, is it? All she has been thinking about was getting the DR under control, not on what she wanted him to do if she actually got him leashed.

Egwene was twiddling her fingers and waiting for Rand to make her see sense! That is hard to believe when faced with all the drama, action, and chapters on reuniting the WT. After leaving Rand and the Wise Ones:
- She clawed for her authority as rebel Amyrlin.
- She had to learn her role from Suian.
- She directed the Bowl of Winds mission.
- She took in hundreds of new novices to beef up the WT strength for TG.
- She had to suffer from one of the Foresaken sleeping in her tent and attempting to sabotage her plans and actions.
- She oversaw the building of an army and started the siege.
- She sawed the seeds for Elaida's downfall, and was prisoner.
- She defended the WT against the Seanchan raid.
- She reunited the WT (necessary to win TG).
- She ended the greatest threat to the WT, Maseena.
- She started regaining WT power and influence in preparation for TG.

I don't think it is fair to say that she didn't have the vision or understanding to know that she needs to help Rand. Whatever help she could give needed a strong WT for it to be effective help.

As to the indestructible Rand Al'Thor, how many times did he need his rear end saved because of his heroism. I think Rhuarc's symbolism with a dumb rat was a masterpiece. Rand was really acting as dumb as that rat on many issues, especially issues that risked his life (which Egwene is blamed for as not understanding enough of its importance).

So, while she has matured and grown a lot, she is still trapped in that loop that says that she must emulate her peers even as she surmounts them in the pecking order. She does or feels that she must behave as an Aes Sedai of a (recently) bygone era, rather than creating her own behavioral niche ….

The White Tower is critical, but not nearly so critical as is the reunification of men and women to combat the DO.

Anyway, Egwene has to suck up her pride and follow, maybe not kneel, to Rand because he is trying to save the world, not just the reputation of some women on an island in soon to be Great Aravalon.


Egwene has broken WT tradition so much that overcoming the resistance from within was one of her struggles. New novices, besieging Tar Valon, new training methods, new powers and skills to learn, etc … Emulating her peers negates her "all knowing" (assumed) trait. So, there is contradiction there.

The WT is just as crucial as the Ashaman for TG. Downplaying the role of the WT goes against what Rand has been trying to achieve for so long. He wants Aes Sedai with him, helping him. If TG was all about spears and swords, Rand would have won with the Aiel a long time ago.

I disagree. On the topic of the main goal of the WoT, the main THING which is the Light winning Tarmon Gaidon - Rand (along with Mat and Perrin as lesser requirements) are absolutely essential. They are all that really matter. If Rand dies it's all over. And supposedly the same with Mat and Perrin.

Since Rand is all that matters to have a chance to be victorious, his life is all that matters. As long as he keeps on surviving until the Last Battle, hope remains alive. How could Egwene be more important to the only thing that matters than someone who saved Rand's life? Because she united female channelers? The consequences of uniting the female channelers is all maybe and might; conditional things that don't have anything to do with Rand. They aren't required for the Light to win. Rand's life up to Tarmon Gaidon is.

Until then, Rand and consequently his life, is everything. That's my opinion on this subject and some of my poorly translated thought processes on the matter.

Elaida had a similar idea. Cage Rand till the last battle; then hold his hands as he marches into Shayol Ghul to defeat the DO.

There seems to be a problem with the perception of TG. Some seem to think it is a one-instance battle where everything is decided. If that were the case, the DO should have amassed his forces and then unleashed them all at once against the world. On the contrary, the DO launched his war a few years before the actual Last Battle. He targeted all mankind and its institutions. He sacrificed many of his best generals before the LB. So, in effect, TG has already started.

If the lives of Rand, Perrin, and Mat where all that mattered, let them march to Shayol Ghul and get it over with.

To win the LB humankind must muster all its strength, including the WT, at its best to stand a chance. Rand is the general; he isn't Rambo Al'Thor.

Dude you'r gonna have to extend your scale WAAAAY over on the negative side for it to work. -10 just won't cut it for me.

As long as you give another +10 on the positive, your suggestion would be great.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2012, 04:52 AM
Egwene does not want to rule by committee. She just wants to understand what the plan is. Is that too much to ask?
Yes, especially when she asks in public.

In WWII, none of the Allied leaders were blabbing about the precise details of D-Day in public, were they?
Those details were shared with others only a strict need-to-know basis, and even then no sooner than absolutely necessary.

Of course, that analogy is somewhat weak, as the Shadow has lots of nifty mind-reading tricks using TAR and such which worsen the security situation a lot more than was the case in WWII.

Still, suppose that Rand did disclose a complete and seemingly rational plan to her, which would not require her to do anything different from what she is doing now. How would that improve things? On the other hand, if she then talks about it to someone else, and the wrong person overhears it, then Rand might find that his plan fails and the Light loses, because the Shadow managed to prevent him from succeeding.

Or, if you want another analogy:
Why did Egwene fail to tell her Hall and the Andoran nobles who were so worried about her army that she intended to use Traveling to go to Tar Valon with her entire army? That would've set their minds at ease, it would have shown them that she had a viable plan. Of course, it would also have given Elaida an opportunity to start preparing for it, but who cares about that, right?

Dajoran
01-18-2012, 05:32 AM
Also, Rand has just come down from Dragonmount - he's in the area and decides to give Egwene a heads up.

I cannot recall how all of the other rulers are asked to join him at the Fields of Merrilor - but it is a mark of respect that the flaming Dragon Reborn calls to her in person to let her know that there will be a discussion happening.

He does tell her what he is going to do (all that he knows he has to do at the moment, because as Rand makes evident himself, he has told Egwene all he plans to do - he doesn't know the rest yet...), and offers that a discussion will take place at the FoM:


"You must know what my plans are so that you can
prepare."
"The last time I tried to seal the Bore, I was forced to do it without the help of the women. That was part of what led to disaster, though they may have been wise to deny me their strength. Well, blame must be spread evenly, but I will not make the same mistakes a second time. I believe that saidin and saidar must both be used. I don't have the answers yet."

---

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."

---

"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then . . . well, then we will discuss my terms."

---

"That is why I came to you. To let you plan."

---

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

"Then meet with me at the place known as the Field of Merrilor, just to the north. We will talk before I go to Shayol Ghul. For now, I do not want to defy you, Egwene. But I must go."


He will tell her the plan, when he knows what to do, but at the moment she's just getting a heads up.

He's also giving her the opportunity to come up with her own plan - I'm sure if it's a better plan then Rand will use it.

(This was a bit rushed - doing about 12 things at once here so apologies for misquotes/missing the mark again/etc.)

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 07:39 AM
Yes, especially when she asks in public.

In WWII, none of the Allied leaders were blabbing about the precise details of D-Day in public, were they?
Those details were shared with others only a strict need-to-know basis, and even then no sooner than absolutely necessary.

Of course, that analogy is somewhat weak, as the Shadow has lots of nifty mind-reading tricks using TAR and such which worsen the security situation a lot more than was the case in WWII.

Still, suppose that Rand did disclose a complete and seemingly rational plan to her, which would not require her to do anything different from what she is doing now. How would that improve things? On the other hand, if she then talks about it to someone else, and the wrong person overhears it, then Rand might find that his plan fails and the Light loses, because the Shadow managed to prevent him from succeeding.

Or, if you want another analogy:
Why did Egwene fail to tell her Hall and the Andoran nobles who were so worried about her army that she intended to use Traveling to go to Tar Valon with her entire army? That would've set their minds at ease, it would have shown them that she had a viable plan. Of course, it would also have given Elaida an opportunity to start preparing for it, but who cares about that, right?
If secrecy was Rand's concern, why did he reveal any of his plans? I mean, giving the Shadow a rough date of when the Seals will be broken is an enormous mistake then. The Dark One can now prepare himself to let all kinds of hell loose in about a month.

And it isn't like she didn't give him an opportunity to ask for a private meeting. She said they must discuss and plan. If Rand had said "In private", do you think Egwene would have said no? At worst, she'd have asked for her trusted lieutenants to be present, hardly a major roadblock.

And Dajoran:

That is what Egwene is objecting to. Based on what Rand told her (and thinks in his only PoV), Breaking the Seals isn't a part of a well thought out plan. Rand plans to do it even before he knows what he'll do in Shayol Ghul.

Basically his plan is:
Break the Seals->Figure out how to defeat DO

Whereas Egwene is saying:
Figure out how to defeat DO->Break the Seals if you have to.

Its probably true that the DO won't be freed if the Seals are broken. But his reach in the world will increase. Which means Rand's plan is mystifying because after breaks the Seals and sits around trying to figure out what to do, the rest of the world will suffer even more horrifically beneath the DO's increased influence. If he could fix the seasons even with the Seals in place, what horrors can he achieve with the Seals removed? What if Rand doesn't figure out a plan in time, or figures one out after a huge number of people die?

The logic of Rand's plan is so staggeringly bad that I can't even believe the naive Rand from the EotW would have come up with it. Which leaves me with the conclusion that this "conflict" was added on by Brandon to allow for a proper ending fro ToM and allow for a decent transition to the next book.

Based on my reading, we're going to have almost no discussion in Merrillor. The attack on Caemlyn and the White Tower are going to be announced right before it starts, and all the gathered armies are going to split up to fight in these cities.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2012, 07:52 AM
Basically his plan is:
Break the Seals->Figure out how to defeat DO

Whereas Egwene is saying:
Figure out how to defeat DO->Break the Seals if you have to.
The AS have had thousands of years to do step one of Egwene's plan, and they have gotten absolutely totally nowhere. What reason is there to think they would do any better with, say, half a year extra?

Rand may fail, true. But all the prophecies say that he is the only one with any chance of success at all, whereas all others would be without such a chance. So, should people gamble on a small hope, crazy though it may seem*, or on a certain loss?

* Or it could be crazy, in reality. There's Bashere's tale of that mad general who never lost, to give some perspective to the "following a madman" idea.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 08:39 AM
The AS have had thousands of years to do step one of Egwene's plan, and they have gotten absolutely totally nowhere. What reason is there to think they would do any better with, say, half a year extra?
Because they have a load of new knowledge. Because they can discuss this with a man who has the memories of Lews Therin Thelamon. Because they now have a powerful Dreamer. Because there are no Blacks to confuse issues, and because there's a new spirit of cooperation. And because there's going to be desperation to succeed too.

Rand may fail, true. But all the prophecies say that he is the only one with any chance of success at all, whereas all others would be without such a chance. So, should people gamble on a small hope, crazy though it may seem*, or on a certain loss?

* Or it could be crazy, in reality. There's Bashere's tale of that mad general who never lost, to give some perspective to the "following a madman" idea.
But take Lews Therin as an example. His success is owed as much to his own initiative as to the stubbornness of his opponents. His victory wasn't Pyrrhic because the women stayed away and then had untainted saidar to defeat the remaining Foresaken and Trolloc hordes and eventually end the destruction of the mad male channelers.

Yes, Rand is the savior of the world. But we have abundant evidence that he can't win alone. Min's vision shows that victory is possible only when all the people she saw at Baerlon were together.

Just because he's the savior of the world doesn't mean every one else should become doormats and accept what he does without question. By that standard, Cadsuane shouldn't have done anything about his emotional state, Logain should have taken him at his word and done nothing against Taim, and so on.

Nowhere in the Prophesies does it say Rand must be unquestioned. He must be unfettered, yes, and Egwene doesn't question that. She doesn't question that he is trustworthy, she doesn't question that he is one with the land, she doesn't question that he has powers beyond regular people. In fact, she seems to get these things about him far better than others around him.

As the best of lieutenants do, Egwene is questioning Rand's decisions and asking him to clarify his plans. Even he doesn't seem pissed by it. The only people pissed are those who think Egwene should be put in her "place", failing to see that her rise has paralleled Rand's, and her place is exactly where she is, working with Rand to figure out the best way to defeat the DO.

DahLliA
01-18-2012, 08:56 AM
Wow!
- Building trust and extending bridges as opposed to sowing fear and distrust between the Ajahs.
- Accepting that Rand as the Dragon Reborn must fulfill the prophecies to save the world as opposed to caging him, torturing him, breaking his will, and letting the world crumble while Elaida finished building her palace.
- Opening new sources of WT initiates and allowing hundreds of new novices in as opposed to seclusion and even demoting sisters.

I'll leave it at that not to bore you all with other examples. But putting Egwene and Elaida in the same bracket is not easily justified or proven.

that's the slightly more political part ;)

yeah. she doesn't imprison and torture Rand. but she still thinks she should be the one to tell him what to do to save the world. because she is the allmighty and brilliant Amyrlin Seat.

and more novices == more power to the WT after the Last Battle. she even wants to spread the AS-failures into the Aiel and Sea Folk(which has been way more successful as far as organizing channelers IMO)

Egwene is more aware of her failures, weaknesses, and fragile situation than you portray. She is a dreamer who knows that the tower is in danger. And her past failures still haunt her. And her concern is not post-TG. The WT is essential for Rand to win TG. Only the combined efforts of Saidin and Saidar can seal the bore; and mixed circles are required to face the armies and dreadlords. If the WT was so negligible in TG, why was one of the Foresaken charged with residence and infiltration? And why was the tower broken with the Black Ajah and Foresaken working to keep it divided?

And we tend to link dead forsaken with Rand. But in effect, the WT and Aes Sedai have neutralized 2 of them; and have foiled many of their Plans. So, the WT has actually served the Dragon's cause despite its state of weakness.

This seems to be the whole theme of the struggle, unity over division. The DO is sowing division everywhere to weaken his opponents.

oh. she knows she failed. she just completely disregards it since she is the almighty and brilliant Amyrlin Seat. and she clearly knows best as far as anything is concerned.

and what Forsaken have the WT neutralized? I can't remember any except the ones Moiraine killed or Dashiva at the cleansing.

and I don't count those since Moiraine is one of the few AS who put the rest of the world above the WT and petty squabbling. and the ones at the cleansing was there only because Rand was there.

EDIT: oh. and the dark side had to wreck the WT because it could have been a great institution for good if the AS were slightly less arrogant and not just a bunch of squabbling girls

Dajoran
01-18-2012, 09:08 AM
Breaking the Seals isn't a part of a well thought out plan. Rand plans to do it even before he knows what he'll do in Shayol Ghul.

Basically his plan is:
Break the Seals->Figure out how to defeat DO

Whereas Egwene is saying:
Figure out how to defeat DO->Break the Seals if you have to.

Firstly, thats not what Egwene is saying

"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

Is not, "Give me a plan and we'll see where we go from there".

The entire conversation takes place with her internal monologue debating whether of not he is insane!

Secondly - yes, that may be Rand's plan, but it isn't as daft as you make it sound.

This isn't a normal problem that comes around every two days - this is a big damn problem. It deserves proper investigation.

Let us use his wounds as an example (as they seem to be the set up for the entire struggle of the series already). If - with our own medical standards - we were faced with such a wound, the first step is clean it and stick a bandage on it and monitor it. This was the strike at Shayol Ghul.

Second step - the wound becomes infected it is killing the body - there is dead flesh. The taint on Saidin - the Blight - the miasma's of evil - the rotting seals.

Our third step then? Well we need to open the wound up to see what is inside - what to discard and what to salvage - what we can salvage to heal this up again. We cannot do this until we 'clear the rubble' that is, we need to take off the bandage (it was falling apart anyway - he didn't even keep it clean, blood everywhwere, bad dragon...)

Not the greatest analogy I know but that is how I see this thought process.

I wont even start pointing out how Rand is the only lightside person alive who has ever seen the bore... so he'd kinda be better qualified to do the thinking after breaking the seals.

Long story short - Rand has at this point given Egwene all the information he has at moment - or even just all she needs to get her to where he needs her to be. He doesn't have time to sit around and attempt to convince her that this is the right idea, or that he isn't mad/doesn't have tutors/is the living embodiment of 400+ years of memory.




Ps. And even if the Dark One is released to the extent he was at the AoL - most likely, he will just be released to the point where 113 channelers can just lock him back up again for another 3000 years... granted saidin would be blasted again but hey - whats a breaking between friends.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2012, 09:18 AM
Nowhere in the Prophesies does it say Rand must be unquestioned. He must be unfettered, yes, and Egwene doesn't question that.
Then why did she have him shielded while he was in the WT?

I think that if the Hall of the Tower shielded her and kept her shielded as long as she was within the Tower, then she would not agree that she was "unfettered".

and what Forsaken have the WT neutralized? I can't remember any except the ones Moiraine killed or Dashiva at the cleansing.
There's Mesaana. Which, admittedly, did not have all that much impact for the rest of the world, as Mesaana had been concentrating almost exclusively on the AS.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 09:46 AM
Yes, especially when she asks in public.

In WWII, none of the Allied leaders were blabbing about the precise details of D-Day in public, were they?
Those details were shared with others only a strict need-to-know basis, and even then no sooner than absolutely necessary.

Of course, that analogy is somewhat weak, as the Shadow has lots of nifty mind-reading tricks using TAR and such which worsen the security situation a lot more than was the case in WWII.

Still, suppose that Rand did disclose a complete and seemingly rational plan to her, which would not require her to do anything different from what she is doing now. How would that improve things? On the other hand, if she then talks about it to someone else, and the wrong person overhears it, then Rand might find that his plan fails and the Light loses, because the Shadow managed to prevent him from succeeding.

Or, if you want another analogy:
Why did Egwene fail to tell her Hall and the Andoran nobles who were so worried about her army that she intended to use Traveling to go to Tar Valon with her entire army? That would've set their minds at ease, it would have shown them that she had a viable plan. Of course, it would also have given Elaida an opportunity to start preparing for it, but who cares about that, right?

Accusing Egwene of wanting to discuss the plan publicly is biased! It was Rand who made the plan public, not Egwene! And his 2-step plan (break then seal) was by his own admission far from "complete and seemingly rational." It was developed as far as breaking, the part that didn't need any planning at all. Olvar could have broken the seals! The sealing he gave himself a month to ponder over.

Egwene wanted to discuss planning; but Rand said to meet him in a month's time in the Fields! How would she have forced him to discuss in private? He was more arrogant in that meeting than Egwene. Drop a bombshell, use Taveren effect to awe the others, and depart without giving answers.

As to WWII, the Nazi's knew that the allies will attempt to land; but didn't guess the right location. Rand gave the time and place to a few hundred people!

I believe that this show on Rand's part disguised some of his intentions. He is smart enough for that. But the side-effect of his subterfuge is confusion: maybe his intended goal.

Also, Rand has just come down from Dragonmount - he's in the area and decides to give Egwene a heads up.

I cannot recall how all of the other rulers are asked to join him at the Fields of Merrilor - but it is a mark of respect that the flaming Dragon Reborn calls to her in person to let her know that there will be a discussion happening.

He does tell her what he is going to do (all that he knows he has to do at the moment, because as Rand makes evident himself, he has told Egwene all he plans to do - he doesn't know the rest yet...), and offers that a discussion will take place at the FoM:

He will tell her the plan, when he knows what to do, but at the moment she's just getting a heads up.

He's also giving her the opportunity to come up with her own plan - I'm sure if it's a better plan then Rand will use it.


The logic here is just too flawed. First it establishes that Rand generously visits Egwene out of respect, not necessity. If the Bloody Lord Dragon was so omnipotent, he should just go to Shayol Ghul and do a Kamikaze to get it over with (Oh, he did that already and ended up breaking the world and murdering his wife, children, and friends). The man needs all the forces of the Light to help him execute his plan. He needs Ashaman and Aes Sedai working together to seal the bore and to defeat the vast armies of the Shadow ravaging the land.

Then, Rand as the "Flaming Dragon Reborn," the savior of man kind, openly admits to hundreds of people that he doesn't have a clue on how to seal the bore (Min hasn't figured it out for him yet!). Yet, he tells the same group that he'll break the seals.

Would anyone tell me how a leader should act at such a critical junction in the history of all the people in his world?

Again, I say that the meeting should have been a general request for cooperation and unity to face the DO. Talk about the plan when you have one!

The AS have had thousands of years to do step one of Egwene's plan, and they have gotten absolutely totally nowhere. What reason is there to think they would do any better with, say, half a year extra?

Rand may fail, true. But all the prophecies say that he is the only one with any chance of success at all, whereas all others would be without such a chance. So, should people gamble on a small hope, crazy though it may seem*, or on a certain loss?


If Aes Sedai had 3000 years to prepare, Rand/LTT was there last time it was done. He should have had the answers right away.

And Aes Sedai are not exactly at their greatest. They've just cleansed the tower from a Foresaken and 200 black sisters (20% of the WT were traitors). And the tower has just been reunited; and the Seanchan raid on the tower was the first time in its history that it has been breached. Doesn't all of this justify the effort Egwene and her group put into straightening things out in the WT to prepare it for TG! At least she knew what she had to do to get the WT in shape; and she is still facing the greatest challenge she's unaware of: A full attack on the WT by Fortuona!

But Rand knows and Egwene knows that they need to work together for any hope of a viable victory. And I know they'll agree on a plan, or be forced to agree on a plan.

I think Rand will save the WT and the world by kneeling before Fortuona to stop the Seanchan attack; but this is as wild a speculation as any.

She doesn't imprison and torture Rand. but she still thinks she should be the one to tell him what to do to save the world. because she is the allmighty and brilliant Amyrlin Seat.

oh. she knows she failed. she just completely disregards it since she is the almighty and brilliant Amyrlin Seat. and she clearly knows best as far as anything is concerned.

and what Forsaken have the WT neutralized? I can't remember any except the ones Moiraine killed or Dashiva at the cleansing.

and I don't count those since Moiraine is one of the few AS who put the rest of the world above the WT and petty squabbling. and the ones at the cleansing was there only because Rand was there.

Bel'al, Lanfear, Maseema, and Moghedien were neutralized by WT or Aes Sedai. Moiraine herself would not take personal credit for her actions at the expense of the tower.

Egwene hasn't tried to tell Rand what to do since his time in the Aiel Waste. She was busy with sorting out her situation and that of the WT. In fact, she knows that she owes her stole in part to her position and relation to Rand.

But there seems to be a troubling perception that in the presence of the Flaming Lord Dragon, only his mind should work. All other minds must cease to function. And Rand doesn't want that! He wants assistance and help, not blind obedience!

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2012, 10:37 AM
And Aes Sedai are not exactly at their greatest. They've just cleansed the tower from a Foresaken and 200 black sisters (20% of the WT were traitors).
Which was a secret to one person in that gathering: the DR.
Egwene could've told him that he no longer needed worry about Mesaana. She could also have told him the names of a couple of suspected BA members in his entourage.

Was secrecy really the best option here?

fdsaf3
01-18-2012, 10:49 AM
Maleshub wins my deep respect for being an ardent, and articulate, supporter of Egwene. Particularly in the face of so many haters.

Bravo, good sir. I don't necessarily agree with what you're saying, but you've intrigued me enough to read what is otherwise usually a really boring mud-slinging "debate" that holds little value.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 10:51 AM
Which was a secret to one person in that gathering: the DR.
Egwene could've told him that he no longer needed worry about Mesaana. She could also have told him the names of a couple of suspected BA members in his entourage.

Was secrecy really the best option here?

You forget that it was Rand who was in a hurry to leave after his bombshell. Imagine that someone is talking about breaking the seals to the DO prison bore; would anything less important that take precedence over that?

There were many things that they could have talked about; but Rand didn't have the time. I'm sure they'll have more time in the Fields.

Maleshub wins my deep respect for being an ardent, and articulate, supporter of Egwene. Particularly in the face of so many haters.

Bravo, good sir. I don't necessarily agree with what you're saying, but you've intrigued me enough to read what is otherwise usually a really boring mud-slinging "debate" that holds little value.

Thank you for the kind words, kind Sir! It is not secret that I'm a "I love Egwene" club member. And I like to discuss things to her credit as well as her failures and flaws.

In any case, she is such a tremendous character that is well-written. All the debate on her is as good indication of that as any.

Dajoran
01-18-2012, 10:58 AM
If the Bloody Lord Dragon was so omnipotent, he should just go to Shayol Ghul and do a Kamikaze to get it over with (Oh, he did that already and ended up breaking the world and murdering his wife, children, and friends). The man needs all the forces of the Light to help him execute his plan. He needs Ashaman and Aes Sedai working together to seal the bore and to defeat the vast armies of the Shadow ravaging the land.

Nowhere do I suggest he is turning down help - in fact what I suggest is that he is gathering everyone needed to the Fields of Merrilor.

Then, Rand as the "Flaming Dragon Reborn," the savior of man kind, openly admits to hundreds of people that he doesn't have a clue on how to seal the bore (Min hasn't figured it out for him yet!). Yet, he tells the same group that he'll break the seals.

Again, as I say, he may not know how to close the bore - but as being the only person alive to have seen the bore - he is more than qualified to be the one looking at it.

Would anyone tell me how a leader should act at such a critical junction in the history of all the people in his world?

Again, I say that the meeting should have been a general request for cooperation and unity to face the DO. Talk about the plan when you have one!

Or prepare people to look at the problem from the correct direction by saying what you intend to do - if an alternative or answer comes from this then all the better. He has set them loose on the correct course of thought... hopefully.

If Aes Sedai had 3000 years to prepare, Rand/LTT was there last time it was done. He should have had the answers right away.

And you accuse me of flawed logic - just above you talk about how Rand/LTT failed - how can he now have the answers 'right away'?

As readers we are able to glean information from Rand as to what his eventual plan might be. Remember after the Strike last time the Dark One lashed out with a very famous counterstroke - Rand now knows that there needs to be a buffer between whatever he does now and the Dark One. He is getting the information he needs from past experiences and new ones.

What we would have hoped is that a 3000 year old institution , which over the course of those year have had thousands of the greatest minds in the world walk it corridors, the worlds rulers in some shape or form valuing their opinion - would have been actively preparing for this.

But Rand knows and Egwene knows that they need to work together for any hope of a viable victory. And I know they'll agree on a plan, or be forced to agree on a plan.

Of course Rand knows this - everyone knows this - it was in one of Min's first viewings.

But there seems to be a troubling perception that in the presence of the Flaming Lord Dragon, only his mind should work. All other minds must cease to function. And Rand doesn't want that! He wants assistance and help, not blind obedience!

Well that's not his fault is it??


Egwene raised a hand to her head, feeling dizzy.
"Light!" Silviana said. "How could you think during that, Mother?"
"What?" Egwene looked about the Hall. Many of the Sitters were slumping visibly in their seats.
"Something gripped my heart," Barasine said, raising a hand to her breast, "squeezing it tight. I didn't dare
speak."
"I tried to speak," Yukiri said. "My mouth wouldn't move."
"Ta'veren" Saerin said. "But an effect as strong as that ... I felt that it would crush me from the inside."
"How did you resist it, Mother?" Silviana asked.


I am not detracting from Egwene's accomplishments one bit - I am detracting the fact that there are people in this thread, that for this scene, are too busy vehemently defending her that they cannot see that they are completely misreading an entirely and amazingly written scene.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 11:02 AM
Firstly, thats not what Egwene is saying

Is not, "Give me a plan and we'll see where we go from there".

That's some nice selective reading, my friend:

"In one month's time," Rand said, "I'm going to travel to Shayol Ghul and break the last
remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. I want your help."
Break the seals? She saw the image from her dream, Rand hacking at the ropes that bound the crystalline globe. "Rand, no," she said.
"I'm going to need you, all of you," he continued. "I hope to the Light that this time, you will give me your support. I want you to meet with me on the day before I go to Shayol Ghul. And then . . . well, then we will discuss my terms."
"Your terms?" Egwene demanded.
"You will see," he said, turning as if to leave.
"Rand al'Thor!" she said, rising. "You will not turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!"
He froze, then turned back toward her.
"You can't break the seals," Egwene said. "That would risk letting the Dark One free."
"A risk we must take. Clear away the rubble. The Bore must be opened fully again before it can be sealed."
"We must talk about this," she said. "Plan."
"That is why I came to you. To let you plan."
He seemed amused. Light! She sat back down, angry. That bullheadedness of his was just like that of his father. "There are things we must speak of, Rand. Not just this, but other things, the sisters your men have bonded not the least among them."
"We can speak of that when we next meet." She frowned at him.
"And so here we come to it," Rand said. He bowed to her a shallow bow, almost more a tip of the head. "Egwene al'Vere, Watcher of the Seals, Flame of Tar Valon, may I have your permission to withdraw?"
He asked it so politely. She couldn't tell if he was mocking her or not. She met his eyes.
Don't make me do anything I would regret, his expression seemed to say.
Could she really confine him here? After what she'd said to Elaida about him needing to
be free?
"I will not let you break the seals," she said. "That is madness."

So, to recap. he announces his plan, with a mysterious mention of "terms", and refuses to elaborate. When asked for a discussion, and the need to plan, he says he wants Egwene to make the plans! He refuses to explain, refuses to talk further, and tells Egwene he will meet with her one day before he executes his plan! Basically, Egwene will be given 24 hours to convince him, and she won't even be told what exactly his plan is. Add to that, Rand says he doesn't have it all figured out, but he means to do it anyway.

At this point, Egwene says she's going to let him go, but she's not going to allow his mad plan. And the way he stated it to her, the plan is mad.

Taking forward your medical analogy, its like someone deciding to remove faulty but still useful bandages before they know how to seal the wound. Rand is basically saying its okay that the patient may bleed out. Egwene is saying it is not. Both are pretty valid opinions, and it isn't as if Egwene is being even remotely unreasonable here. The only reason you guys think she's wrong is because you mistakenly take the prophesies to mean Rand is always right and that no one must question him.

But history speaks otherwise. The last time, the Dragon succeeded as much because of his daring plan as because of the refusal of an Egwene-parallel, Latra Pose, to go along with it. Maybe the same is needed this time. Maybe, just as saidin and saidar run the world by opposing each other, Rand and Egwene must stay in opposition to save the world.

Or not. But the fact is, you can't let the Prophesies guide your behavior. As Min and Cadsuane point out, the Prophesies do not guarantee victory. They say there will be no victory without the Dragon, but don't say he will know how to defeat the DO. They don't even say he will succeed. In the face of that, keeping quite about legitimate disagreements is the worse way to do your duty. The best of Rand's allies don't keep quiet when they disagree with him, and this is why.

The entire conversation takes place with her internal monologue debating whether of not he is insane!
And her conclusion is that he is not! Her conclusion is that he can be trusted with the fate of the world:

The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.
Even the fate of the world.

Secondly - yes, that may be Rand's plan, but it isn't as daft as you make it sound.

This isn't a normal problem that comes around every two days - this is a big damn problem. It deserves proper investigation.
Isn't that exactly what Egwene is saying?

Let us use his wounds as an example (as they seem to be the set up for the entire struggle of the series already). If - with our own medical standards - we were faced with such a wound, the first step is clean it and stick a bandage on it and monitor it. This was the strike at Shayol Ghul.
Ok...
Second step - the wound becomes infected it is killing the body - there is dead flesh. The taint on Saidin - the Blight - the miasma's of evil - the rotting seals.[/quote]
That is a bad analogy. It isn't that the wound became infected now. Its that the evil in the world is leaking through. What Rand is suggesting is equal to removing Flinn's wards around his wound before anyone can figure out how to deal with the chaos that will be unleashed when that happens. If you agree with him, then you believe that the best way to heal Rand's wound is to remove the protection he does have, and then hope that someone figures out how to heal it, despite the fact that the best minds for the job (Nynaeve, Flinn) have failed to find a solution.
Rand is saying that even with his memories of LTT, he doesn't have an answer. But he wants to give the DO more freedom to damage the Pattern while he and Min try figuring it out. Where is the sense in that? Doesn't that actually seem like a mad plan? Doesn't this actually seem like Moridin infecting Rand's thought process?

Maybe the Patter is counterbalancing Moridin by giving Egwene that dream about Rand almost at the exact moment he stepped into the Tower grounds. That Dream was surely no coincidence. Its timing is telling.

Our third step then? Well we need to open the wound up to see what is inside - what to discard and what to salvage - what we can salvage to heal this up again. We cannot do this until we 'clear the rubble' that is, we need to take off the bandage (it was falling apart anyway - he didn't even keep it clean, blood everywhwere, bad dragon...)
But that isn't Rand plan. Nowhere has he suggested removing the Seals to sstudy the Bore. I doubt that it is even possible to study the Bore without alerting the Dark One. If you think he actually has a plan to do research in Shayol Ghul, I'd like some evidence.

Not the greatest analogy I know but that is how I see this thought process.
Except it doesn't match what he's actually thinking.

I wont even start pointing out how Rand is the only lightside person alive who has ever seen the bore... so he'd kinda be better qualified to do the thinking after breaking the seals.
Why not do that thinking before Breaking the Seals?

Long story short - Rand has at this point given Egwene all the information he has at moment - or even just all she needs to get her to where he needs her to be. He doesn't have time to sit around and attempt to convince her that this is the right idea, or that he isn't mad/doesn't have tutors/is the living embodiment of 400+ years of memory.
He doesn't have to convince her he isn't mad, or that he actually does have LTT's memories. She took him at his word for that. But he does need to convince her of his plan if he wants women to work with him. What Egwene has been doing on the surface is to bring the rulers together in opposition to his plan. But what she has been doing unconsciously is creating a Fateful Concord of female channelers. I doubt even Nynaeve would go against her final word, and Rand is probably going to find at Merrilor that unless he stops thinking he can use his reputation for madness to scare people into following him and actually does explain why he wants to do what he's saying, the Aes Sedai, Wise One's and the Sea Folk will stand together behind Egwene and refuse to follow his plan. All he needs to do to cement them behind Egwene is to declare that as a price for his saving the world, he wants them to sign a peace with the Seanchan. Which is what he probably means by his "terms". At that point, two of his lover will also be against him, and Cadsuane and Nynaeve will probably turn away as well.

Its clear RJ wanted to recreate the Latra-LTT standoff here. A similar situation will develop, except that Rand and Egwene actually have known each other from childhood. Its pretty clear that's where the story is headed.

Ps. And even if the Dark One is released to the extent he was at the AoL - most likely, he will just be released to the point where 113 channelers can just lock him back up again for another 3000 years... granted saidin would be blasted again but hey - whats a breaking between friends.
There are hardly five male channelers with the strength and skill to match the Hundred Companions. Remember that placing the Seals required so much precision that people thought it would be impossible to do without a circle of men and women. LTT had sever really skilled companions in the AoL, so they somehow managed to pull it off. This time around, Rand desperately needs women to form links. So no, no way can Rand simply redo what they did in the AoL.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 11:10 AM
Then why did she have him shielded while he was in the WT?
She didn't order that. The women did it out of fear. She says she didn't even think the full circle of thirteen could hold him!

I think that if the Hall of the Tower shielded her and kept her shielded as long as she was within the Tower, then she would not agree that she was "unfettered".
Except she knows she can't overcome a circle, but does believe Rand can. She also seems to believe Rand can make Graendal's compelled mind-slaves just do what he wants:

"The man I saw wouldn't need to destroy such a place," Egwene said. "Those inside would just follow him. Bend to his wishes. Because he was"

Where in this do you see any wish to contain him? Where in this do you see evidence that she thinks she can contain him?

There's Mesaana. Which, admittedly, did not have all that much impact for the rest of the world, as Mesaana had been concentrating almost exclusively on the AS.
Then Rand's killing Be'lal or Rhavin or Graendal was equally impact-less?

The consequences of Mesaana's presence in the Tower were huge, not least of which were the attempt to kidnap Rand and the battle at Dumai's Wells!

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 11:17 AM
Which was a secret to one person in that gathering: the DR.
Egwene could've told him that he no longer needed worry about Mesaana. She could also have told him the names of a couple of suspected BA members in his entourage.

Was secrecy really the best option here?

But Egwene said she wanted to discuss more things, and Rand said he didn't have the time. In any case, Egwene spoke of this to Nynaeve later that night. I doubt she forbid her from neutralizing Blacks in Rand's entourage.


Or prepare people to look at the problem from the correct direction by saying what you intend to do - if an alternative or answer comes from this then all the better. He has set them loose on the correct course of thought... hopefully.

Then what exactly is your problem with Egwene's actions in this scene? She's doing what she believes is right, based on her logic, based on a dream she had a few moments before, and it seems even the Pattern thinks her arguments are important enough that it doesn't shut her down like it did everyone else in the Hall!

maleshub
01-18-2012, 11:18 AM
First off, thanks for the thorough reading and response. I was worried that some things would be discarded for such a lengthy post.

Nowhere do I suggest he is turning down help - in fact what I suggest is that he is gathering everyone needed to the Fields of Merrilor.

Again, as I say, he may not know how to close the bore - but as being the only person alive to have seen the bore - he is more than qualified to be the one looking at it.

Or prepare people to look at the problem from the correct direction by saying what you intend to do - if an alternative or answer comes from this then all the better. He has set them loose on the correct course of thought... hopefully.
.

Rand is the undisputed leader of the Light in the strike against the DO and sealing of the bore. No one questions that role; and no one denies that the Pattern has given him extraordinary advantages (taveren, knowledge from the AoL, luck, etc…) to qualify him for the extraordinary mission.

The problem I see is that readers fall on the same problem that Rand miraculously extracted himself from: He had to do this … He had to be hard … He had to win. Rand now knows that every "He" has been replaced with a "We." Instead of "using" people, he now tries to cooperate and unite. I see Rand well beyond the "Rambo" perception of the mission.


And you accuse me of flawed logic - just above you talk about how Rand/LTT failed - how can he now have the answers 'right away'?

As readers we are able to glean information from Rand as to what his eventual plan might be. Remember after the Strike last time the Dark One lashed out with a very famous counterstroke - Rand now knows that there needs to be a buffer between whatever he does now and the Dark One. He is getting the information he needs from past experiences and new ones.


LTT failed because the Hall of the Servants stood against his original plan. But he had a plan that could have worked. And he knew what he needed to do.

The Strike on Shayol Ghul with the 100 companions was a desperate contingency plan executed when the Shadow was on the verge of over-running the last bastions of light.


What we would have hoped is that a 3000 year old institution , which over the course of those year have had thousands of the greatest minds in the world walk it corridors, the worlds rulers in some shape or form valuing their opinion - would have been actively preparing for this.


An institution that saved the world from the worst of the breaking; that set in motion the actions that led to Rand having the tools necessary for his mission. Female Aes Sedai played the main role in having the Dragon Reborn come to a world a few thousand years removed with the necessary tools for victory.

As to the current WT, the DO through no less than 2 Foresaken and 200 black sister (Black Ajah working for 2000 years!!!) divided the tower and scattered its potential. Egwene is trying to put the pieces together for the WT to be effective in the last battle. I don't think she disputes that Rand is to lead. But if she and the WT are to contribute, they have to be as strong as possible. Wouldn't this be to Rand's advantage?


Well that's not his fault is it??


No, not his fault. It is the perception by some readers that everyone should bow, swear fealty, obey, and not question anything Rand does. Even a simple, "We should discuss and plan" is met by vehement accusations of arrogance and working for the DO!


I am not detracting from Egwene's accomplishments one bit - I am detracting the fact that there are people in this thread, that for this scene, are too busy vehemently defending her that they cannot see that they are completely misreading an entirely and amazingly written scene.


Vehement defense requires an equally vehement offense to instigate it. And wherever there is vehemence, things are missed by both sides.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 11:26 AM
Vehement defense requires an equally vehement offense to instigate it. And wherever there is vehemence, things are missed by both sides.
Well said.

suttree
01-18-2012, 11:48 AM
LTT failed because the Hall of the Servants stood against his original plan. But he had a plan that could have worked. And he knew what he needed to do.


LTT failed because his plan was flawed. If LTP had gone along with it Saidar would have been tainted as well and we wouldn't have a story now.

RJ:The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

Rand acknowledges the plan was flawed and knows he can't try and seal it the same way. LTP said the plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right.

In terms of Rand breaking the seals it is important to note he has no idea what to do after and is hoping Min can find the answers for him.
It would be far better to present the situation to Egwene rationally and put all the resources of the WT on the job in assisting her.
ToM
You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

What is clear is he antagonized her in that meeting purposely. Rand needed her opposition, we just don't know exactly why yet.

ToM
"Not yet, Nynaeve. I've poured hot oil into the White Tower, and it will be boiling soon. Time. We don't have time! I will get help to Lan, I vow it to you, but right now I must prepare to face Egwene."

"Face her?" Nynaeve said, stepping forward. "Rand, what have you done?"

"What needed to be done.

Dajoran
01-18-2012, 11:50 AM
That's some nice selective reading, my friend:

Thanks, I mightn't have been clear in what I was drawing attention to, which was not the text but your statement. But thanks!

So, to recap. he announces his plan, with a mysterious mention of "terms", and refuses to elaborate. When asked for a discussion, and the need to plan, he says he wants Egwene to make the plans! He refuses to explain, refuses to talk further, and tells Egwene he will meet with her one day before he executes his plan! Basically, Egwene will be given 24 hours to convince him, and she won't even be told what exactly his plan is. Add to that, Rand says he doesn't have it all figured out, but he means to do it anyway.

This is valid - however, think to yourself why is Rand doing it this way - is it because he has dealt with someone like this person before and knows how to handle her?

At this point, Egwene says she's going to let him go, but she's not going to allow his mad plan. And the way he stated it to her, the plan is mad.

Not really, we've had various characters throughout the series using analogies about things being broken down to be reforged... makes it appear to be a faily common concept in this world.

Taking forward your medical analogy, its like someone deciding to remove faulty but still useful bandages before they know how to seal the wound.

At that point is it better to let the bandages fall off whenever? Or at a time of your choosing?

The only reason you guys think she's wrong is because you mistakenly take the prophesies to mean Rand is always right and that no one must question him.

Never once do I say anything like that - I am neither an Egwene lover or hater - I am a scene lover.

But history speaks otherwise. The last time, the Dragon succeeded as much because of his daring plan as because of the refusal of an Egwene-parallel, Latra Pose, to go along with it. Maybe the same is needed this time. Maybe, just as saidin and saidar run the world by opposing each other, Rand and Egwene must stay in opposition to save the world.

That could be... but at the same time that opposition caused the breaking of the world.

Or not. But the fact is, you can't let the Prophesies guide your behavior. As Min and Cadsuane point out, the Prophesies do not guarantee victory. They say there will be no victory without the Dragon, but don't say he will know how to defeat the DO.

I don't say they do - I think anyone who has read the books remembers Min's various viewings with the Shadow and the Sparks - it's pretty run for the mill that everyone will be needed.


And her conclusion is that he is not! Her conclusion is that he can be trusted with the fate of the world:

That's not a conclusion - she really doesn't conclude here at all. The words of a madman from a man she sees as her old friend, and she mentions what he used to be.

Isn't that exactly what Egwene is saying?

No she is saying:

She took a deep breath. "He might be persuaded by people that he trusts." Or he
might be forced to change his mind if confronted by a large enough group united to stop him.


That is a bad analogy.

I said as much.

It isn't that the wound became infected now. Its that the evil in the world is leaking through. What Rand is suggesting is equal to removing Flinn's wards around his wound before anyone can figure out how to deal with the chaos that will be unleashed when that happens. If you agree with him, then you believe that the best way to heal Rand's wound is to remove the protection he does have, and then hope that someone figures out how to heal it, despite the fact that the best minds for the job (Nynaeve, Flinn) have failed to find a solution.

Which is why I called it a bad analogy - they all fall apart under pressure - the bad ones fall apart quicker.

Rand is saying that even with his memories of LTT, he doesn't have an answer. But he wants to give the DO more freedom to damage the Pattern while he and Min try figuring it out. Where is the sense in that? Doesn't that actually seem like a mad plan? Doesn't this actually seem like Moridin infecting Rand's thought process?

It doesn't seem that Moridin infecting anything - to me (and I feel the need to point out that this is my opinion based on the story) it is a great idea.

In the story world it can be viewed as a bad idea I agree - but he doesn't want to give the dark one freedom while figuring it out... as I have said above - he already knows the pieces he needs (Everyone there - seals open - a buffer) that isn't a plan - but I see this as something already used throughout the story - a blacksmith puzzle - you need to grasp this to solve it - but the pieces are all there.

Maybe the Patter is counterbalancing Moridin by giving Egwene that dream about Rand almost at the exact moment he stepped into the Tower grounds. That Dream was surely no coincidence. Its timing is telling.

But its context is ambiguous...

But that isn't Rand plan. Nowhere has he suggested removing the Seals to sstudy the Bore. I doubt that it is even possible to study the Bore without alerting the Dark One. If you think he actually has a plan to do research in Shayol Ghul, I'd like some evidence.

Maybe using study is a bad term - like using plan is a bad term. See what I said above about a blacksmith puzzle... it may not convince you - but ah well.


Why not do that thinking before Breaking the Seals?

Again, some puzzles cannot be solved inside their box.

He doesn't have to convince her he isn't mad, or that he actually does have LTT's memories. She took him at his word for that.

That's your reading of it again - she says no such thing - re: Words of a madman.

But he does need to convince her of his plan if he wants women to work with him. What Egwene has been doing on the surface is to bring the rulers together in opposition to his plan. But what she has been doing unconsciously is creating a Fateful Concord of female channelers. I doubt even Nynaeve would go against her final word, and Rand is probably going to find at Merrilor that unless he stops thinking he can use his reputation for madness to scare people into following him and actually does explain why he wants to do what he's saying, the Aes Sedai, Wise One's and the Sea Folk will stand together behind Egwene and refuse to follow his plan. All he needs to do to cement them behind Egwene is to declare that as a price for his saving the world, he wants them to sign a peace with the Seanchan. Which is what he probably means by his "terms". At that point, two of his lover will also be against him, and Cadsuane and Nynaeve will probably turn away as well.

One name. Moiraine. Egwene has won amazing battles but, Nynaeve has already went against an Amyrlin's order and I doubt Cadsuane even cares half as much about the White Tower as she does Rand - but Moiraine will be the deciding factor in this - not a rehash of the Fateful Concorde.

I highly doubt the Wise One's would stand against Rand - but I agree that due to his neglegence concerning the Sea Folk could cause them to for go their bargain with the Dragon in favour of Egwene.

There are hardly five male channelers with the strength and skill to match the Hundred Companions. Remember that placing the Seals required so much precision that people thought it would be impossible to do without a circle of men and women. LTT had sever really skilled companions in the AoL, so they somehow managed to pull it off. This time around, Rand desperately needs women to form links. So no, no way can Rand simply redo what they did in the AoL.

It was a flippant postscript - a comical remark. But I realise there is no room for humour in this thread now.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 11:56 AM
LTT failed because his plan was flawed. If LTP had gone along with it Saidar would have been tainted as well and we wouldn't have a story now.

Rand acknowledges the plan was flawed and knows he can't try and seal it the same way. LTP said the plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right.

In terms of Rand breaking the seals it is important to note he has no idea what to do after and is hoping Min can find the answers for him.
It would be far better to present the situation to Egwene rationally and put all the resources of the WT on the job in assisting her.

What is clear is he antagonized her in that meeting purposely. Rand needed her opposition, we just don't know exactly why yet.

Thanks for correcting my mis-information.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Nynaeve and Elayne were the ones who broke Moghedian. And Egwene received a trained damane. So, don't blame her for torture.


Nope, wrong. Egwene also tortured her and used the a'dam to extract information and also used lackeys to help torture her:


TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: EPILOGUE
Lying on her back in the night, Moghedien stared at the roof of the tiny tent she was allowed to herself as one of the Amyrlin's servants. From time to time her teeth ground, but as soon as she realized it, she stilled them again, very conscious of the a'dam necklace tight around her neck. This Egwene al'Vere was harder than Elayne or Nynaeve had been; she tolerated less and demanded more. And when she passed the bracelet to Siuan or Leane, especially Siuan.... Moghedien shivered. That must be what it would be like if Birgitte could wear the bracelet.


Yeah, no torture going on there...okay chief.

I dont have time for the rest of your post right now but you are wrong on many many levels about Egwene's suckiness.

Dajoran
01-18-2012, 12:00 PM
No, not his fault. It is the perception by some readers that everyone should bow, swear fealty, obey, and not question anything Rand does. Even a simple, "We should discuss and plan" is met by vehement accusations of arrogance and working for the DO!

Vehement defense requires an equally vehement offense to instigate it. And wherever there is vehemence, things are missed by both sides.

I'll reply to the rest of your post when I get home, but I agree to this, it is my own fault for coming into an Egwene thread - but I only want to argue about the plan/lack of plan... not all this other guff.

Which makes it very complicated when people are attacking me based on it :confused: when I said nothings!!!

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 12:32 PM
Thanks, I mightn't have been clear in what I was drawing attention to, which was not the text but your statement. But thanks!



This is valid - however, think to yourself why is Rand doing it this way - is it because he has dealt with someone like this person before and knows how to handle her?
That may be. I get now that you're not exactly in this discussion for or against Egwene. But in this thread, Egwene is being vilified for opposing Rand's plan and planning to handle him. As you say, he may well have behaved as he did to manipulate Egwene. In which case Egwene has every right to try to outmaneuver him, and using that to cast doubt on her morality is ludicrous (though I know you aren't doing this).

Not really, we've had various characters throughout the series using analogies about things being broken down to be reforged... makes it appear to be a faily common concept in this world.
But Egwene isn't disagreeing what that. Her problem is when you do the breaking of the sword. Why do it before you know how to reforge it?

At that point is it better to let the bandages fall off whenever? Or at a time of your choosing?
Ummm... if you can't handle the post bandage situation, you let the bandages be, monitor them all the time, and wait for them to fall off.

Never once do I say anything like that - I am neither an Egwene lover or hater - I am a scene lover.
Ok, cool. I just thought, given the context of this thread, that you were saying something you were not. Apologies.

That could be... but at the same time that opposition caused the breaking of the world.
Nope. It contained the breaking to merely 400 years. As was pointed out, RJ said that but for Latra's opposition, saidar would have been tainted too.

I don't say they do - I think anyone who has read the books remembers Min's various viewings with the Shadow and the Sparks - it's pretty run for the mill that everyone will be needed.
But many in this thread don't seem to agree, at least when it comes to Egwene.

That's not a conclusion - she really doesn't conclude here at all. The words of a madman from a man she sees as her old friend, and she mentions what he used to be.
But she does. Her thoughts that he spoke his words evenly, and that she was on the Seat for a reason, and that she was dealing with Rand the man, not the DR, are her final thoughts on this. From there on, she doesn't have thoughts on his madness. From there on, she goes to the extent of telling Nynaeve that he had changed so much, his mere presence would be enough to turn compelled slaves of Graendal to his service. That's pretty conclusive.

No she is saying:
Yes... and? Her position is that breaking the Seals right now is crazy, and she means to convince Rand of this fact.

I said as much.
But went on to make some pretty important points using it...

Which is why I called it a bad analogy - they all fall apart under pressure - the bad ones fall apart quicker.


It doesn't seem that Moridin infecting anything - to me (and I feel the need to point out that this is my opinion based on the story) it is a great idea.
But you haven't explained the flaw in its logic. Except with a bad analogy...

In the story world it can be viewed as a bad idea I agree - but he doesn't want to give the dark one freedom while figuring it out... as I have said above - he already knows the pieces he needs (Everyone there - seals open - a buffer) that isn't a plan - but I see this as something already used throughout the story - a blacksmith puzzle - you need to grasp this to solve it - but the pieces are all there.
Metaphors are all very nice, but a good metaphor won't defeat the Dark One.

But its context is ambiguous...
To us. The Dreamer has attached a meaning to it, and she has never been wrong till now.

Maybe using study is a bad term - like using plan is a bad term. See what I said above about a blacksmith puzzle... it may not convince you - but ah well.
It doesn't, because it is a metaphor. You can't say that Egwene should be convinced because Rand's plans make metaphorical sense.

Again, some puzzles cannot be solved inside their box.
What does that actually mean? How will breaking the Seals help make things clearer?

That's your reading of it again - she says no such thing - re: Words of a madman.
But said in an even voice, reminding her of the sane youth in whose hands you can trust the fate of the world, yadda yadda.

One name. Moiraine. Egwene has won amazing battles but, Nynaeve has already went against an Amyrlin's order and I doubt Cadsuane even cares half as much about the White Tower as she does Rand - but Moiraine will be the deciding factor in this - not a rehash of the Fateful Concorde.
Yes, I've seen this bandied about. But why exactly are we sure Moiraine will take his side? Maybe her big function is not to agree with his plan, but to disagree with it, and finally convince him. We have no way of knowing which side she'll take. Add Egwene's dream to the mix, and it becomes truly up in the air.

I highly doubt the Wise One's would stand against Rand - but I agree that due to his neglegence concerning the Sea Folk could cause them to for go their bargain with the Dragon in favour of Egwene.
The Wise Ones already agree with Egwene. And once she reveals her dream, they'll be even more convinced, since she's their student.

It was a flippant postscript - a comical remark. But I realise there is no room for humour in this thread now.
I'm sorry. I guess I totally missed that.

Nope, wrong. Egwene also tortured her and used the a'dam to extract information and also used lackeys to help torture her:
Yeah, no torture going on there...okay chief.
Yes, Egwene tortured Moghedien. She even did a better job of it than Elayne and Nynaeve. But Moggy didn't give Egwene the cuendillar weave. She didn't know it. She just gave hints, and Egwene figured out the rest. Not unlike Nynaeve figuring out the new Healing from Moghedien's tidbits. I'm failing to see why this is a mark against Egwene...

Grig
01-18-2012, 12:46 PM
Yes, Egwene tortured Moghedien...I'm failing to see why this is a mark against Egwene...

Just leaving this here. Is that really your stance?

Note that Davian was responding to someone that said Egwene can't be blamed for torture because Nynaeve and Elayne did the breaking. Context matters if you're actually trying to address what people say.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 12:53 PM
Just leaving this here. Is that really your stance?

Note that Davian was responding to someone that said Egwene can't be blamed for torture because Nynaeve and Elayne did the breaking. Context matters if you're actually trying to address what people say.
But no one broke Moghedien fully. Egwene was more successful than Nynaeve and Elayne in getting things out of her since she was tougher on Moggy, but its isn't like the idea of torturing Moggy through the a'dam was conceived by Egwene! The biggest thing that made Moggy more responsive was Egwene's threat of killing her if she held anything back.

Unless you're saying that the degree of torture matters, I can't see how you can hold this against Egwene and not Nynaeve and Elayne. Heck, Nynaeve even wanted Semirhage tortured, and Elayne asked for the services of a professional torturer to be used against the Blacks she captured, whereas Egwene did not think even Elaida deserved to be captured by the Seanchan.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 01:20 PM
But no one broke Moghedien fully. Egwene was more successful than Nynaeve and Elayne in getting things out of her since she was tougher on Moggy, but its isn't like the idea of torturing Moggy through the a'dam was conceived by Egwene! The biggest thing that made Moggy more responsive was Egwene's threat of killing her if she held anything back.

Unless you're saying that the degree of torture matters, I can't see how you can hold this against Egwene and not Nynaeve and Elayne. Heck, Nynaeve even wanted Semirhage tortured, and Elayne asked for the services of a professional torturer to be used against the Blacks she captured, whereas Egwene did not think even Elaida deserved to be captured by the Seanchan.


A threat of killing her is just another form of torture. The point of it is that even Rand didnt believe in torture like that but Egwene has no issues whatsoever in torture. She's a hypocrite and always has been. Its okay as long as SHE wants to do it or SHE approves.

The breaking of Seals is another massive blindspot for her. She knows next to nothing about the Seals and what they actually do and doesnt have a clue on how to stop Rand but hey, we MUST oppose the prophecized Leader of the Light because he's an evil man and he cant possibly be right. What does she do in the 30 days between talking to Rand and the Field of Merrilor? She has TAR meetings with other channeling groups to slowly bring them under her rule and also coordinates a massive army of the Light to OPPOSE the LEADER of the Light. She couldn't be a better pawn for the Shadow if she tried.

The funny part is that at least Rand knows how idiotically stupid she is and he is likely just playing her. He knows full well that his Ta'vereness will overwhelm any objections once he has them assembled so he lets her do all his busy work for him.

Egwene Sucks.

Grig
01-18-2012, 01:31 PM
Unless you're saying that the degree of torture matters, I can't see how you can hold this against Egwene and not Nynaeve and Elayne.

Did anyone say that they don't hold torture against Nynaeve or Elayne? I'd love to see a quote of someone stating that "it's cool when Nynaeve and Elayne tortured Moghedien, but Egwene was an evil trollop for doing so."

suttree
01-18-2012, 01:36 PM
The point of it is that even Rand didnt believe in torture like that but Egwene has no issues whatsoever in torture.

True, he prefers mass murder. As for the torture that only relates to women.


The breaking of Seals is another massive blindspot for her. She knows next to nothing about the Seals and what they actually do and doesnt have a clue on how to stop Rand but hey, we MUST oppose the prophecized Leader of the Light because he's an evil man and he cant possibly be right.

Hyperbole much? Rand has no plan and is hoping Min can find one. Instead of asking the WT for help in doing so he deliberately provokes Egwene to oppose him.


What does she do in the 30 days between talking to Rand and the Field of Merrilor? She has TAR meetings with other channeling groups to slowly bring them under her rule and also coordinates a massive army of the Light to OPPOSE the LEADER of the Light. She couldn't be a better pawn for the Shadow if she tried.


Well she took down a forsaken for one? As for the Tar meeting not sure how even the most ardent Egwene hater could oppose that. It is another step in her fostering change within the WT. The exchange program will lead to understanding and growth leading to future cooperation with the groups. She quite clearly talks about the need for change.

ToM
"The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," Egwene said softly, not wanting the Wise Ones to overhear. "Was it ever? The Black Tower bonds Aes Sedai, the Aiel no longer revere us, the Windfinders have hidden their best channelers from us for centuries and are becoming increasingly belligerent. If we try to hold too tightly to all of this, we will either become tyrants or fools, depending upon how successful we are. I accept neither title.

Landro
01-18-2012, 01:42 PM
First it establishes that Rand generously visits Egwene out of respect, not necessity.

He could have sent one of his pet AS to deliver the message instead.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 01:44 PM
The exchange program will foster understanding and growth leading to future cooperation with the groups. She quite clearly talks about the need for change.



Actually, her inner monologue goes on about how she is tying those groups to her with chains of lace so they dont realize it until its too late. She's not cooperating with them, she's attempting to dominate them under her personal rule.

But yeah, she's being super-atruistic and just hopes to foster communication.


TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 36 - An Invitation
"We will pick our strongest women," Bair added. "Those who will not be corrupted by wetlander softness." There was no condemnation in those words. Calling wetlanders soft was not an insult, in Bair's mind. Amys nodded. "This work you do is a good one so long as you do not presume to tie us in steel bands." No, Amys, Egwene thought. I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead.

eht slat meit
01-18-2012, 01:45 PM
A threat of killing her is just another form of torture. The point of it is that even Rand didnt believe in torture like that but Egwene has no issues whatsoever in torture.

iirc, the only torture Rand has a problem with is the torture of women. Hypocritical of him of course, but that's probably a product of his upbringing. He doesn't have the high road on Egwene for this subject.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 01:45 PM
A threat of killing her is just another form of torture. The point of it is that even Rand didnt believe in torture like that but Egwene has no issues whatsoever in torture. She's a hypocrite and always has been. Its okay as long as SHE wants to do it or SHE approves.
Where is the hypocrisy in this? Egwene has never been against torture for the Foresaken, nor has she objected to it when anyone else did it. Rand, on the other hand, is okay with it for men, but not for Female Foresaken. That is hypocritical.

The breaking of Seals is another massive blindspot for her. She knows next to nothing about the Seals and what they actually do and doesnt have a clue on how to stop Rand but hey, we MUST oppose the prophecized Leader of the Light because he's an evil man and he cant possibly be right.
Except her real reason is her dream and the lack of logic in Rand's plan. But you're so blindly obsessed with hating her that you'll twist any and all actions of hers to prove that you're right to hate her.

What does she do in the 30 days between talking to Rand and the Field of Merrilor?
Spends most of it removing a Foresaken from their midst. And we don't know all that she does. We're barely being given hints for some of what she's been doing. We know, in the background, that more women are being raised. That more of them are being thought how to do the new Healing. That more Warders are being bonded. That she has been reading the works of really ancient Brown scholars...

Very clearly, Egwene's preparation for the meeting, except for gathering allies, has been kept behind the scenes to keep the suspense alive.

She has TAR meetings with other channeling groups to slowly bring them under her rule and also coordinates a massive army of the Light to OPPOSE the LEADER of the Light.
Yes. And unless you can show that she compelled them or something, you have no point, except to prove that absolutely no one has confidence in the mad plan of the leader of the Light.

She couldn't be a better pawn for the Shadow if she tried.
Or is Rand the pawn? Secret, inexplicable linkage with the leader of the Shadow. Inexplicable dream connections between them. Abilities to nearly tough souls with him. Ability to use the True Power...

The funny part is that at least Rand knows how idiotically stupid she is and he is likely just playing her.
Except he doesn't know about the dream, and doesn't know that she has most female channelers sewn up in an alliance. He's going to be hit with a fateful concord as a result of needlessly manipulating Egwene where he could have been more open and gotten her complete support.

He knows full well that his Ta'vereness will overwhelm any objections once he has them assembled so he lets her do all his busy work for him.
Except, while his ta'verenness worked on the Hall, it didn't work on Egwene, and somehow even his most loyal allies are seeing things her way. He handed her the tools to make her Fateful Concord too! All he needs to do now is announce a peace accord with the Seanchan. Add the superb mess in the Black Tower and his whole plan will be revealed to be in shambles.

Egwene Sucks.
That doesn't seem to be your conclusion, but your bias. You don't evaluate events and judge Egwene. You've judged her and twist events to suit that.

suttree
01-18-2012, 01:48 PM
Actually, her inner monologue goes on about how she is tying those groups to her with chains of lace so they dont realize it until its too late. She's not cooperating with them, she's attempting to dominate them under her personal rule.

But yeah, she's being super-atruistic and just hopes to foster communication.

Are you so naive? If you think Sorilea and the WFs will not be trying to jockey for control you are crazy.

ToM
"And if they are saying the same thing right now?" Leane asked softly, looking over at the Wise Ones, who were speaking in hushed tones on the far side of the room. "If they try to play us as we play them?"

"Then we have to play the best," Egwene said. "All of this is secondary, for now. We need unity against the Shadow and the Seanchan. We have to—"

The deal is very fair and benefits everyone. She is not trying to trick them so they don't realize it until it's too late. The results will be the same no matter that all the groups are scheming for control. That's the way of the world.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 01:50 PM
Actually, her inner monologue goes on about how she is tying those groups to her with chains of lace so they dont realize it until its too late. She's not cooperating with them, she's attempting to dominate them under her personal rule.

But yeah, she's being super-atruistic and just hopes to foster communication.
Umm... you do know that tying someone with lace is a metaphor for cooperation, right? Lace, being soft and weak, can't hold anyone if they want to go away. She's saying she will use reason and diplomacy to tie them together, not force and bullying (bands of steel).

Do remember that everything she says is constrained by her Oath. If she says she will not allow the Tower to become a tyrant, she quite literally means that.

eht slat meit
01-18-2012, 01:55 PM
Do remember that everything she says is constrained by her Oath. If she says she will not allow the Tower to become a tyrant, she quite literally means that.

If she were Aes Sedai to the core, that quote about tyrants and fools would give her all kinds of wiggle room, so the Oath doesn't really get her much slack. However, I agree with your assessment that the bonds of lace are a metaphor for cooperation, tying two people together. The 'exchange student' agreement she made certainly doesn't allow the Tower a dominant role.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 01:55 PM
Except he doesn't know about the dream, and doesn't know that she has most female channelers sewn up in an alliance. He's going to be hit with a fateful concord as a result of needlessly manipulating Egwene where he could have been more open and gotten her complete support.


Except for a couple MINOR problems:

He has to strike before the Light is too weak to put up a fight. If you hadn't noticed, the sun hasn't shown through the clouds outside the presence of the Big 3 Ta'veren in weeks, all the crops are dead, stored grain/food is all spoiled, the Borderlands are completely overrun by millions upon millions of Trollocs/Fades, etc etc. Its the 15th round of the fight, the Light is stumbling around the ring and the Shadow is about to deliver a knockout punch. There isn't time to sit down for months and figure out a detailed plan to stop the DO. Rand knows he has to Break the Seals...to clear the rubble before he can rebuild the patch on the DO's prison. He knows what wont work due to his integrated memories and he knows that he has to use Callandor in some sort of circle. He also has a fantastic history of winging it with minimal details. Egwene wastes time trying to dominate other female channelers that dont need her supposed expert leadership instead of actually figuring out how to reseal the Bore. In a way, she's not much better than Elaida. In another way, she's far worse as she should know better and actually trust the guy she grew up with for 18 years in Emond's Field...or perhaps listen to the advice of her former mentor Nynaeve when she says Rand knows what he is doing and to trust him. Instead, she immediately discards this contrary advice because it doesnt fit her picture of him. Instead of analyzing that piece of information, she immediately jumps to the conclusion that Nynaeve is, herself, unreliable now thanks to her association with Rand. Its much the same as when she automatically jumps to the conclusion that Rand MUST have compelled/tortured all the Aes Sedai that follow him because there is no way in hell that Aes Sedai would ever voluntarily follow him. While some of them were unknowingly compelled by Verin, Rand had nothing to do with it. However, Egwene immediately assumes/believes that Rand is responsible and capable of such behavior. This despite the fact that she used to follow him while still an Accepted and despite knowing that Moiraine followed him too.

Bottom Line is that Rand at least understands the urgency of the situation and has some rough idea of what needs to be done while Egwene has zero knowledge of anything that has to be done.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 01:56 PM
Did anyone say that they don't hold torture against Nynaeve or Elayne? I'd love to see a quote of someone stating that "it's cool when Nynaeve and Elayne tortured Moghedien, but Egwene was an evil trollop for doing so."
Well, Davian said that Egwene was a hypocrite for using torture to get the cuendillar weave out of Moghedien (which she did not do in the first place) and then using it in her plan. As if Elayne and Nynaeve did not also get weaves out of Moghedien which played roles in their later plans. So I assumed he meant this was a failing on Egwene's part alone, which, given the way he talks about her, is entirely possible.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 02:01 PM
If she were Aes Sedai to the core, that quote about tyrants and fools would give her all kinds of wiggle room, so the Oath doesn't really get her much slack. However, I agree with your assessment that the bonds of lace are a metaphor for cooperation, tying two people together. The 'exchange student' agreement she made certainly doesn't allow the Tower a dominant role.

Exactly. As long as she sees it as "for their own good", she'll be able to manipulate/control them regardless of how others might see it as tyranny. Its much the same as how Elaida was able to convince herself that Egwene must be Black Ajah to defy her like that.

Its a symptom of meglomania.

Grig
01-18-2012, 02:05 PM
Do remember that everything she says is constrained by her Oath. If she says she will not allow the Tower to become a tyrant, she quite literally means that.

She says she won't accept the title of tyrant, she doesn't say that the Tower will not be tyrannical. It's a meaningless statement with regard to a binding oath. Talk about wiggle room.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 02:10 PM
She says she won't accept the title of tyrant, she doesn't say that the Tower will not be tyrannical. It's a meaningless statement with regard to a binding oath. Talk about wiggle room.

Most people believe that their actions are justified. Most tyrants would never think they are being tyrannical...thus, its completely meaningless.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 02:25 PM
If she were Aes Sedai to the core, that quote about tyrants and fools would give her all kinds of wiggle room, so the Oath doesn't really get her much slack. However, I agree with your assessment that the bonds of lace are a metaphor for cooperation, tying two people together. The 'exchange student' agreement she made certainly doesn't allow the Tower a dominant role.
If Egwene is anything "at the core", she's a Wise One, not an Aes Sedai.

Except for a couple MINOR problems:

He has to strike before the Light is too weak to put up a fight. If you hadn't noticed, the sun hasn't shown through the clouds outside the present of the Big 3 Ta'veren in weeks, all the crops are dead, stored grain/food is all spoiled, the Borderlands are completely overrun by millions upon millions of Trollocs/Fades, etc etc. Its the 15th round of the fight, the Light is stumbling around the ring and the Shadow is about to deliver a knockout punch.
And exactly who has debated this point? My question, and the question of everyone who disagrees with Rand's plan, is how Breaking the Seals helps this. If its the fifteenth round, and you're stumbling around, you don't hand your opponent a free punch do you?

How would giving the Dark One even greater power over the Pattern than now help the Light in any way? He has clouds fixed in place now, what more can he achieve with no Seals active? Meanwhile, Rand still doesn't have any idea how to stop him, and his best bet is the great philosophical genius Min Farshaw... uh wait!

Add to this his link to Moridin, their connected dreams, and now his desire for Lanfear, and you can see some hints that things are far from rosy.

There isn't time to sit down for months and figure out a detailed plan to stop the DO.
And this is the kind of strawman argument that weakens your point. Where has anyone asked for months at a time. Exactly one month before Merrilor, Egwene asked Rand to sit down and plan, and he said no. Which means he thought one month of waiting was okay. Wouldn't that time have been better spent researching? Wouldn't that have been achieved if he had given her a clear idea of his reasons, and a clear idea of the missing parts of his plan? I'm not saying she would personally come up with the answer (though who knows, she has been reading ancient Brown scholars of late), but she does command two entire Ajahs equipped for the job and is sitting atop the world's largest library. And a discussion with Egwene about the other issues she wanted to talk about, including perhaps the Seanchan and th Black Tower, could hardly have put the Light in deeper shit than it currently is in...

Rand knows he has to Break the Seals...to clear the rubble before he can rebuild the patch on the DO's prison. He knows what wont work due to his integrated memories and he knows that he has to use Callandor in some sort of circle.
Except that even Min says that the Callandor idea is flawed, and it likely can be used against him!

He also has a fantastic history of winging it with minimal details.
It all boils down to this, doesn't it.

First of all, no he doesn't. Even the Cleansing had better planning than this, and Rand waited for months before carrying that out.

Second of all, you may think Rand has a great chance of succeeding at this because as a reader, you know the hero must win the day. But how rational is it to ask Egwene to trust Rand's plan because he can "wing it"?

With all of LTT's planning the last time, the Dark One still came perilously close to victory. You're completely forgetting that even LTT's not so stupid plan would have led to disaster if Latra Pose hadn't been stubborn. Exactly what basis does Egwene have to assume that Rand will "wing it" and everything will be okay?

This is the most important decision Egwene will make in her life. And I'm really grateful that she didn't base it on Rand's supposed ability to "wing it".

Egwene wastes time trying to dominate other female channelers that dont need her supposed expert leadership instead of actually figuring out how to reseal the Bore.
First of all, they do need her. They would have floundered against the Seanchan without her plan.

Second of all, she isn't trying to dominate them.

Thirdly, how do you know she hasn't figured anything out. We barely get to see her thinking of this issue.

In a way, she's not much better than Elaida. In another way, she's far worse as she should know better and actually trust the guy she grew up with for 18 years in Emond's Field...
But she does trust him. She says so herself. But you seem to think she needs to prove that by showing blind obedience.

or perhaps listen to the advice of her former mentor Nynaeve when she says Rand knows what he is doing and to trust him.
Except Nynaeve never says that to Egwene.

Instead, she immediately discards this contrary advice because it doesnt fit her picture of him. Instead of analyzing that piece of information, she immediately jumps to the conclusion that Nynaeve is, herself, unreliable now thanks to her association with Rand.
She thinks Nynaeve is trapped in a ta'veren web. Which she is. Egwene herself is trapped in one. But she does listen to Nynaeve, she does ask her to explain his actions in the past, so I fail to see why you're complaining here.

Its much the same as when she automatically jumps to the conclusion that Rand MUST have compelled/tortured all the Aes Sedai that follow him because there is no way in hell that Aes Sedai would ever voluntarily follow him. While some of them were unknowingly compelled by Verin, Rand had nothing to do with it. However, Egwene immediately assumes/believes that Rand is responsible and capable of such behavior. This despite the fact that she used to follow him while still an Accepted and despite knowing that Moiraine followed him too.
But she was right. Aes Sedai were indeed compelled. And rather than coming up with the fantastical notion that a Black Sister who could compel forced sisters to obey Rand, she concluded that it might possibly be Rand. But she says she didn't even want to contemplate that Rand even knew the weave. She didn't think of him as definitely guilty!

Bottom Line is that Rand at least understands the urgency of the situation and has some rough idea of what needs to be done while Egwene has zero knowledge of anything that has to be done.
And you know this how? Seriously, even if she knows nothing else, only your bias against her would make you believe that her dream was irrelevant. A dream that she reads as a warning against Rand's plan that comes to her about the exact moment Rand walks into the Tower? And then the Patters shuts everyone in the Hall up but Egwene? At least admit that she did have some justification for her stance, even if you think she is ultimately going to be proven wrong.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Exactly. As long as she sees it as "for their own good", she'll be able to manipulate/control them regardless of how others might see it as tyranny. Its much the same as how Elaida was able to convince herself that Egwene must be Black Ajah to defy her like that.

Its a symptom of meglomania.
Except she got furious with an Aes Sedai for suggesting that the Aiel could be subjugated. Unless you think she's schizophrenic, she won't turn from that and try to subjugate them herself!

Davian93
01-18-2012, 02:32 PM
Except she got furious with an Aes Sedai for suggesting that the Aiel could be subjugated. Unless you think she's schizophrenic, she won't turn from that and try to subjugate them herself!

Yet she won't see it as subjugation...that's the point you are failing to grasp. She'll see it as "helping" them.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 02:35 PM
Yet she won't see it as subjugation...that's the point you are failing to grasp. She'll see it as "helping" them.
Outline this imaginary scheme of yours, then. Till now, her only plan with them has placed them as equals with the Tower. Till now, she identifies more with them than with the Aes Sedai. It is their approval that counts more to her.

More importantly, she actually accepts that the Aes Sedai are fools straight out. No amount of wiggle room can change the fact that she called herself "Queen of the Fools". Does this sound like someone who thinks Aes Sedai are inherently superior and should hence dominate the Wise Ones? Her internal monologues say otherwise too.

eht slat meit
01-18-2012, 02:41 PM
Exactly. As long as she sees it as "for their own good", she'll be able to manipulate/control them regardless of how others might see it as tyranny. Its much the same as how Elaida was able to convince herself that Egwene must be Black Ajah to defy her like that.

Its a symptom of meglomania.

There's truth in that, but having wiggle room doesn't mean she's going to take advantage of it.

Here's a little experiment for you: Find a long piece of lace, or failing that, a piece of strong. Tie one end to your wrist, the other to the wrist of a willing participant or better yet, a cat.

How much "control" do you have over the person or animal on the other end?

Davian93
01-18-2012, 02:42 PM
Outline this imaginary scheme of yours, then. Till now, her only plan with them has placed them as equals with the Tower. Till now, she identifies more with them than with the Aes Sedai. It is their approval that counts more to her.

More importantly, she actually accepts that the Aes Sedai are fools straight out. No amount of wiggle room can change the fact that she called herself "Queen of the Fools". Does this sound like someone who thinks Aes Sedai are inherently superior and should hence dominate the Wise Ones? Her internal monologues say otherwise too.


Accept we're talking about her personal domination of them, not a generalized Aes Sedai domination. Egwene places herself above the 'foolish Aes Sedai' too. She thinks and truly believes that she knows best.

eht slat meit
01-18-2012, 02:57 PM
Egwene places herself above the 'foolish Aes Sedai' too. She thinks and truly believes that she knows best.

Should that be surprising, or even an unjustifiable conclusion? These women were responsible for -breaking- the WT. With the exception of the newest members, every last Aes Sedai present is part and parcel of the -failure- that the WT has become, and many of them still don't/won't recognize the core issues behind that failure because it's so much easier to blame the Black Ajah for everything now that they've been outed and purged.

Like Rand as the Dragon, Egwene is Amyrlin, the Tower's mother-figure. It's her responsibility to fix what went wrong. It's also her responsibility (and Rand's) to reconcile the differences that lay between them. That's what bugs me about ToM: They didn't. Rand laid down hints and ultimatums, Egwene put up her back. Neither of them is in the right here, unless Rand is keeping an information-cheat that isn't outright noticeable.

Both of their actions can be justified, but the rationale is weak.

Grig
01-18-2012, 03:08 PM
Till now, her only plan with them has placed them as equals with the Tower.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider "tricking them to be in TAR when one of the bleeding Forsaken along with several Black Ajah attack so they will feel duty bound to clean up the White Tower's Black Ajah mess for them" to be treating or placing them as equals. It's using them as a pawn in a situation where they have nothing to gain, and are just acting as servants to Aes Sedai goals. And this one done by the one Aes Sedai who actually respects Wise Ones. Most others (especially those that have built up decades/centuries of contempt for non-AS channelers, IOW most of the Hall) do not.

suttree
01-18-2012, 03:10 PM
Egwene wastes time trying to dominate other female channelers

This claim has already been shown to be overwhelmingly false. You did nothing to address my quote that all the groups are entering the pact thinking the exact same thing.


In a way, she's not much better than Elaida. In another way, she's far worse as she should know better and actually trust the guy she grew up with for 18 years in Emond's Field

ToM
Egwene leaned forward, studying him. There didn't seem to be madness in his eyes. She knew those eyes. She knew Rand.
Light, she thought. I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.
"Which are you?" she whispered unconsciously.
He heard. "I am both, Egwene. I remember him. Lews Therin. I can see his entire life, every desperate moment. I see it like a dream, but a clear dream. My own dream. It's part of me."
The words were those of a madman, but they were spoken evenly. She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything. Even the fate of the world.


Bottom Line is that Rand at least understands the urgency of the situation and has some rough idea of what needs to be done while Egwene has zero knowledge of anything that has to be done.

Bottom line is Rand has no plan and is hoping Min can figure one out. Hope Baerlon CC had good course selections on the nature of the DOs prison.

He should have enlisted the WT aid and Egwene's reaction would have been far different.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider "tricking them to be in TAR when one of the bleeding Forsaken along with several Black Ajah attack so they will feel duty bound to clean up the White Tower's Black Ajah mess for them" to be treating or placing them as equals. It's using them as a pawn in a situation where they have nothing to gain, and are just acting as servants to Aes Sedai goals. And this one done by the one Aes Sedai who actually respects Wise Ones. Most others (especially those that have built up decades/centuries of contempt for non-AS channelers, IOW most of the Hall) do not.

LOL BWahahaha. So let me get this straight? Despite all that is written on the exchange program and how good the deal is, what it will mean for the future etc. This was actually a trick Egwene set up. She timed it perfectly so the forsaken and BA would attack at this moment? She wasn't taken by surprise? It was all a master plan to use them as pawns in some sinister AS game? This almost makes Felix/Dida look sane.

Davian93
01-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Um...way to misread your own quoted text:

She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything. Even the fate of the world.

Past tense...the YOUTH he HAD been. She's thinking that he's no longer trustworthy and it surprises her. Its the exact opposite of what you are attempting to imply. She can no longer trust him with the fate of the world is the thought process we are given.

suttree
01-18-2012, 03:19 PM
Um...way to misread your own quoted text:



Past tense...the YOUTH he HAD been. She's thinking that he's no longer trustworthy and it surprises her. Its the exact opposite of what you are attempting to imply. She can no longer trust him with the fate of the world is the thought process we are given.

Sorry mate, you are obviously the one being selective. Taken as a whole the passage shows herself asking who he is? Saying he must be Rand for the good of the world and then coming to the conclusion that is what he seems like. No picking and choosing will change that.

She says flat out he must be Rand because Rand can be trusted.

Grig
01-18-2012, 03:40 PM
She wasn't taken by surprise? It was all a master plan to use them as pawns in some sinister AS game? This almost makes Felix/Dida look sane.

Are you serious? Read the chapter. It's canon. She might have only expected the BA/Forsaken to snoop around and then manipulate the Wise Ones into helping, but she specifically arranged the meeting so that it would coincide with Siuan luring the Black Ajah and Forsaken into TAR. I didn't say that there was no intent to bring Wise Ones into a partnership, so let up on that pathetic strawman. I was just pointing out that her first action as part of that partnership was to force them into a battle that had nothing to do with the Aiel, and only had to do with helping the White Tower fix it's screwups.

"Now," Bair said. "You still have need of us this day? You indicated a battle...?"

"Yes," Egwene said. "Or so I hope." No word had come. that meant Nynaeve and Siuan hadn't discovered anyone listening. Had her ploy failed?

...

A frazzled-looking Siuan appeared in the room, her dress singed on one side. "Mother! We need you!"

"The battle has begun?" Egwene said, urgent. To the side, the Wise Ones perked up.

"It has," Siuan said, panting. "It happened right off. Mother, they didn't come to eavesdrop! They attacked".

Note that earlier, Egwene had set Nynaeve to guard "in case" the BA/Forsaken attack, so she wasn't surprised like Siuan seems to be.

I had no idea that actually paying attention to the books while arguing our points was a Felix Pax-worthy offense. Have we sunk so far?

confused at birth
01-18-2012, 03:51 PM
Have we sunk so far?

Since trying to have a rational discussion about Egwene is like tap dancing on quicksand this is very possible

the only thing I have to say is that she is best written character in the books. This doesnt make her a good character or even a likeable one but she is well written

newyorkersedai
01-18-2012, 04:39 PM
Grig, that's not entirely fair, because Egwene wouldn't need to con the WO to fight like that. If they had no other immediate duties, those Aiel ladies live and breathe to fight the Shadow.

Egwene would be a real sociopathic scumbag not to see and have that fact foremost in her thoughts. She needed to be engaged in real tasks while luring the BA - and hey, why not one that would give her much-needed muscle for both the future and a possible present danger?

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 04:43 PM
Accept we're talking about her personal domination of them, not a generalized Aes Sedai domination. Egwene places herself above the 'foolish Aes Sedai' too. She thinks and truly believes that she knows best.
And she wants to dominate them so much that she really cares for their respect and approval?

Egwene let out a soft, slow breath. It was remarkable to her, sometimes, how much stock she put in the opinions of these women. She took the stole, putting it around her shoulders.

She doesn't put on her Stole, her sole indicator of office, till they approve! And she's secretly plotting to control them?

And if that was her end goal, why oh why did she teach them all the AS weaves she knew in exchange for their teaching her Dreaming? Thanks to her, they can now link, evening out any major advantage the AS would have had in order to dominate them.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't consider "tricking them to be in TAR when one of the bleeding Forsaken along with several Black Ajah attack so they will feel duty bound to clean up the White Tower's Black Ajah mess for them" to be treating or placing them as equals. It's using them as a pawn in a situation where they have nothing to gain, and are just acting as servants to Aes Sedai goals. And this one done by the one Aes Sedai who actually respects Wise Ones. Most others (especially those that have built up decades/centuries of contempt for non-AS channelers, IOW most of the Hall) do not.
She tricked them? Where? Siuan suggested that she ask them to be present for the battle, and she did ask them, as Bair's prior knowledge of the upcoming battle shows. Where exactly is the trickery in this?

Um...way to misread your own quoted text:
Past tense...the YOUTH he HAD been. She's thinking that he's no longer trustworthy and it surprises her. Its the exact opposite of what you are attempting to imply. She can no longer trust him with the fate of the world is the thought process we are given.
That is absolutely absurd. Read the whole thing. First she says:

Light, she thought. I'm wrong. I can't think of him only as the Dragon Reborn. I'm here for a reason. He's here for a reason. To me, he must be Rand. Because Rand can be trusted, while the Dragon Reborn must be feared.

Clear enough for you? I think you lost any last shred of credibility there by openly misreading a comment. Proving my point that you'll twist the text to justify your Egwene-hate.

Weiramon
01-18-2012, 06:35 PM
Aye, the Lord Dragon must be trusted.

No doubt that's why this young puppet of an Amyrlin fully supports his plan to break the seals.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 06:37 PM
Aye, the Lord Dragon must be trusted.

No doubt that's why this young puppet of an Amyrlin fully supports his plan to break the seals.
Because trust and absolute obedience are the same thing?

suttree
01-18-2012, 07:13 PM
Are you serious? Read the chapter. It's canon. She might have only expected the BA/Forsaken to snoop around and then manipulate the Wise Ones into helping, but she specifically arranged the meeting so that it would coincide with Siuan luring the Black Ajah and Forsaken into TAR. I didn't say that there was no intent to bring Wise Ones into a partnership, so let up on that pathetic strawman. I was just pointing out that her first action as part of that partnership was to force them into a battle that had nothing to do with the Aiel, and only had to do with helping the White Tower fix it's screwups.

Note that earlier, Egwene had set Nynaeve to guard "in case" the BA/Forsaken attack, so she wasn't surprised like Siuan seems to be.

I had no idea that actually paying attention to the books while arguing our points was a Felix Pax-worthy offense. Have we sunk so far?

How can something be canon when it didn't happen? Mate, the facts in the book state she told the WOs what was coming beforehand. In your earlier scenario that was not the case you spoke of trickery in addition to a ton of hyperbole on her true intentions. The exchange program was the main purpose and she asked the Aiel ahead of time to help with the fight. Those are the facts, you're misinterpretation(willful or otherwise) is a Felix offense.

Also AS goals/AS screwups?(love how Ishy planting the BA and a Forsaken taking up residence is a screwup) They are going against Forsaken/BA, don't the Aiel have an oath about that? You know the whole water, shade, defiance & spitting or summat? ;)

Because trust and absolute obedience are the same thing?

Indeed. Apparently break the seals and pray that Min finds something for me is enough for Egwene blindly follow him? We have seen how great a job Rand has done lately when he isn't letting anyone question his actions. For the last time Egwene is not in the wrong here. If Rand had asked for the WT's help in backing Min to find the answers Egwene would have supported fully.

Terez
01-18-2012, 08:06 PM
I'm guessing you have done this before at DM? lol...and I've seen Fionwe make his arguments at Westeros, and now we've got newyorkersedai from the most Egwene-hating-est WoT site on the net.

fionwe1987
01-18-2012, 08:19 PM
I'm guessing you have done this before at DM? lol...and I've seen Fionwe make his arguments at Westeros, and now we've got newyorkersedai from the most Egwene-hating-est WoT site on the net.
Well, I think that's because post tGS and ToM, its becoming harder and harder to hate Egwene. Many major haters were proved wrong when Egwene did not try to imprison Rand. And then she called the Aes Sedai fools, and then she came up with a really cool deal with the WO and the SF, and then she fought for Nynaeve to gain the shawl...

The only thing that Egwene did really badly in these books was how she handled Gawyn. And he's hated so much that most people probably thought he deserved it. I still wish she'd just kill him and be done with it. With all the trouble RJ went to make Egwene such an interesting character, it bums me out that he foisted Gawyn bloody Trakand on her.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 09:02 PM
Other posts have answered and commented on this discussion with great detail, logic, and reference. And here are my impressions after reading this thread after leaving it yesterday.

Nope, wrong. Egwene also tortured her and used the a'dam to extract information and also used lackeys to help torture her:

I dont have time for the rest of your post right now but you are wrong on many many levels about Egwene's suckiness.

A threat of killing her is just another form of torture. The point of it is that even Rand didnt believe in torture like that but Egwene has no issues whatsoever in torture. She's a hypocrite and always has been. Its okay as long as SHE wants to do it or SHE approves.


WoT as a whole has institutionalized torture. The seekers, questioners, WT putting people to the question, mistress of novices correctional tools, the dungeons in kingdoms (heck prisoners were deprived light and were kept in the dark all the time), etc….. I don't think WoT cared much for a UN Charter on Human Rights. Judge her actions in her world, not through the UN Commissioner's Office for Human Rights! If she did something truly out of place or extraordinarily cruel, she is to blame.

How about Rand's law that anyone who steals food and commits other offenses (that don't cause death) is hanged? He didn't seem bothered much by killing men for petty crimes. Yet he was uber-clean in refraining from torturing Semihrage and killing Lanfear (Oh, but he thought that he killed Moiraine in that sequence due to his failure to act as a leader.).

As to other things I am wrong about, I would love to be corrected. After all, this is a forum discussion that I enjoy. And I would take part in discussion about Egwene's mistakes, failures, and frustrations as well.

I'll reply to the rest of your post when I get home, but I agree to this, it is my own fault for coming into an Egwene thread - but I only want to argue about the plan/lack of plan... not all this other guff.

Which makes it very complicated when people are attacking me based on it :confused: when I said nothings!!!

That was not directed at you. It was a general perception that a few comments made me consider. And that is the perception that people should bow and swear fealty to the unquestioned Dragon, and turn off the switch in their heads. I didn't read support for that concept in your posts.

Except for a couple MINOR problems:

He has to strike before the Light is too weak to put up a fight. If you hadn't noticed, the sun hasn't shown through the clouds outside the presence of the Big 3 Ta'veren in weeks, all the crops are dead, stored grain/food is all spoiled, the Borderlands are completely overrun by millions upon millions of Trollocs/Fades, etc etc. Its the 15th round of the fight, the Light is stumbling around the ring and the Shadow is about to deliver a knockout punch. There isn't time to sit down for months and figure out a detailed plan to stop the DO. Rand knows he has to Break the Seals...to clear the rubble before he can rebuild the patch on the DO's prison.

Bottom Line is that Rand at least understands the urgency of the situation and has some rough idea of what needs to be done while Egwene has zero knowledge of anything that has to be done.

Again, no one questions that Rand is to lead and is the one that must lead at the last battle. But if he is to lead, then he has to give his subordinates clear, detailed, and executable orders in order to have a chance at winning.

As I said earlier and have read posts to indicate that, Rand intentionally provoked Egwene in order to lead her down a certain path and have her working on solutions for a certain problem.

I think that Rand's visit to the WT was great. It showed them that he was not afraid; and that he wanted their help. But once he opened his mouth, he threw them back in a fluster.

On the verge of the greatest challenge that will decide mankind's future, I would have expected a leader to be less "Daes Damar" and more fatherly and unifying in order to bring his troops to the battle with the best morale and concentration. Throwing the forces of light in a last minute argument over what to do, and telling them that he doesn't have a plan yet isn't how a leader should act.

But, all of that comes from the discussion of half the story; and I know that when the rest of it is told, Rand and Egwene will be working together because she recognizes him as leader of the last battle.

A final comment is that Rand is the Aiel's "Chief of Chiefs;" and they say repeatedly that he is not like a wetlander king. RJ has established early on in not-so-subtle statements that being the Dragon Reborn does not put Rand above questioning. It doesn't propel him to the realm of unquestioned control and authority. In a free world, leaders are questioned and need the free minds of subordinates to help them do the right thing.

Sometimes I am disturbed that some people want the free people to treat Rand as if he was the DO in Shayol Ghul: bask in his glory, ecstasy to be in his presence, and utter obedience. And that perception comes at a time when Rand realized the futility of such a course.

suttree
01-18-2012, 09:38 PM
I'm guessing you have done this before at DM? lol...

LOL possibly a few times....the funny thing is Egwene isn't even one of my top characters. The Egwene hate hyperbole just reaches such absurd levels you feel forced to respond.

maleshub
01-18-2012, 09:51 PM
The Egwene hate hyperbole just reaches such absurd levels you feel forced to respond.

How true! I enjoyed reading the Mat-Tuon courtship most in the last books. Rand's transformation was both painful and beautiful. How I hated the scene where he almost kills Tam! And Egwene's imprisonment in the WT was awesome. Verin's final chapter was just beautiful.

But reading some of the things thrown out at Egwene ......

newyorkersedai
01-18-2012, 10:12 PM
LOL thanks for the shout out, Terez =p
I have no Egwene hatred, tho. She's quite annoying sometimes, but the character flaws in our WoT crew haven't done much for Perrin, or Rand, among others.
It's her outspokeness and habit of both trumping herself up and calling down others that creates some of the fan frustration, I think. Or maybe this series has dragged on so long and in such odd ways (faile's abduction, andor's succession) that folks start to have "darker" or more negative feelings about the parts; like ishamael, the countless (p)ages have driven them mad...